RedHanded - Episode 23 - The Girl in the Box: Colleen Stan

Episode Date: December 7, 2017

20 year old Colleen Stan was abducted in 1977, she wouldn't be free for 7 years and what happened to her in between is unimaginable. If you needed another reason to stop hitchhiking, this is it.    See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to Red Handed early and ad-free. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. They say Hollywood is where dreams are made. A seductive city where many flock to get rich, be adored, and capture America's heart. But when the spotlight turns off, fame, fortune, and lives can disappear in an instant. Follow Hollywood and Crime, The Cotton Club Murder on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. It's just kind of like what a POW would go through, you know.

And these are big, strong military men and they get broke down, you know. And so if you just incorporate these type of techniques with a person over time, you will break their will down and you will have total control over them. I'm Saruti. I'm Hannah. And welcome to Red Handed. So as usual, before we start, we'll just do some lovely five star thank yous. So we got five stars from Westy1984, who said 100% the best true crime podcast they've had. They love the way that we get all the humour in with all of the seriousness and we've got kevin

from liverpool who says it's really well researched and that we cover some of the lesser known cases thank you kevin and i also love this uh this handle funny the way it turned out says that they found the podcast the night before and then i love that the very next day then they had to go and write us a five-star review and they said it was because they love hearing our opinions and that they are super excited to have found us we're excited you found us too we are and our social this i love this so much um our social media moment of the week goes to rav from the great british bake-off i know with not the most recent season the season before he put matcha in everything. He tweeted us saying he's pleased to have found the podcast and he's going to make us a murder cake. Oh my God.

You know, he said he wasn't sure whether to be pleased or to be terrified that he had found us. I think maybe he found the Halloween episode. But thank you, Rav. We are pleased that you found us. So let's crack on with our Patreon supporters. Thank you so much. We hit our target. So we will be doing a live show.

We'll be doing it by Google Hangout and we will let you know. We'll probably do a poll about times. Maybe. Actually, no, fuck it. We'll just do it. We'll do a Google Hangout and we'll let you know what time it is. Obviously, we know you guys are in different time zones, but we'll do our best to accommodate everyone.

So, we have Charlotte Cross, Brittany McDonald, Lisa Pincher, Nicole Price, Elaine Hunt, Carrie Boyce, Cece Rose, Catherine Johnson, Elizabeth McCauley, Scarlett Charlton, BK Schlemley, Christine Mallett. So thank you guys so much. As Hannah said, we are so excited. We can't believe that we hit our first goal and you're just, you're just making such a huge difference to this. So thank you much okay let's let's crack on so the title of this episode is the girl in the box i would like to propose an alternative title which is dear god saruti stop hitchhiking with your nonsense because believe me friends no i'm gonna say that i don't hitchhike i'm gonna say what happened happened in Iceland wasn't hitchhiking.

I met those guys. And I got a lot of slack for it on the social media. I got a lot of slack for it. What about in Mexico? You seem to think I don't know about Mexico. I definitely know about Mexico. Okay. One time in Mexico, I was stranded.

We did it. I was with our mutual friend. I was stranded in the middle of nowhere. And there was a family. And oh my God, that's so not the right, that's so not the right excuse to give considering the story we're about to talk about. But I was stranded in the middle of nowhere.

No buses, no bus timetable, no bus stops anywhere. I had to get back to the hostel. The sun was setting. We'd seen this family all day. They asked if we wanted a lift. We got into the car. The sun was setting. We'd seen this family all day. They asked if we wanted a lift. We got into the car. Then the dad, as he's driving,

just hands this bottle of beer to his wife and he's like, hold this a sec while he goes and opens this gate to get out of where we were stuck. I was like, oh good. So he's drink driving and I don't know these people. Yeah, it's good. I haven't, this was years ago.

This was years ago. Well, listeners at home, regardless of Saruti, I hope you don't get in cars with strangers anyway but this case is going to make you never ever accept a lift from a stranger ever again and we're also going to be grappling with stockholm syndrome for the first time we haven't really come across that too much have we if we have we haven't talked about it in very much depth okay but it's really interesting definitely yeah i feel like it's one of those things that everyone knows the terminology but not necessarily like why yeah so we're gonna kick off in 1977 and a 20 year old

colleen stan was living in a shared house doing odd jobs in eugene oregon her family lived in riverside california about 900 miles away. California is fucking huge. I did not like... I mean, I've been there, but I didn't compute how big it was until researching this case. There are places in California that are like 600 miles apart. Yeah, that's crazy that you could drive for 600 miles and still be in the same state. Yeah, blew my tiny British mind. Where would I be if I drove for 600 miles from where we live? Germany. Brilliant. So on the 19th of May, it was Colleen's friend's birthday,

so she decided that she would surprise her with an impromptu visit to her home in Westwood, California, which was 400 miles away from Colleen's home in Eugene, Oregon. That's just too far. And then the problem is that Colleen's car wouldn't start. So Colleen decided that she would just hitchhike the 400 miles to Westwood. Obviously, as Hannah and all of you on the Facebook group have been yelling at me for hitchhiking, I understand that is not the right practice in this day and age. But hitchhiking back then in the 70s was just much more common. There were hippies everywhere. Apparently, a favourite hippie pastime was hitchhiking.

So Colleen was totally unfazed by getting in the car with strangers for, you know, what was 400 fucking miles across the country. So Colleen hitches a ride with several different truckers and made it all the way to Red Bluff, California by early afternoon. Now Colleen is patiently waiting on the side of the road of the interstate for her next ride and this is when a car full of five guys pulls up. It's looking inside, seeing these kind of five

rowdy guys. I feel like Colleen made the right decision and turned them down. It doesn't seem like it was a good idea to get in with them. So she waits again and she turns down yet another ride because she again just didn't feel like it was right and i feel like here could we say that colleen is being quite a sensible hitchhiker she's not just getting into the car with anybody yep definitely she's definitely making considered decisions yeah she's she's having a think and also this proves again the hitchhiking doesn't seem to have been that difficult because how many people were stopping and she was she felt confident enough to turn them down if she didn't feel like it was the right group of people to get into the car with. So then Colleen imagined the huge surge of relief that she feels when she sees the next

car that pulls over is a young family and it's a you know a mother or a father and they had with them an eight-month-old baby. They looked totally harmless, much better than two rides before. So Colleen thanked them for stopping and got into the back seat. Now, Colleen described the couple as plain, even a bit geeky looking. But she started to feel uneasy when she noticed that the man was looking at her in the rearview mirror. That's creepy. I'd feel freaked out by that. Yeah, and it wasn't like a passing glance.

It was like every few seconds. The couple stopped at a petrol station and Colleen got out of the car to use the toilet. In later interviews, Colleen recalls hearing what she described as the voice of God or perhaps an angel telling her to climb out of the toilet window, run off and never look back.

I am a huge believer in trusting your instinct, like especially as I've got older and the more times you see things play out how you knew that they would I think I trust my gut so much more now than I used to 100% but that's exactly right that's exactly right because I would say that Colleen is young she's 20 years old and I think it's that idea of like she has this bad feeling when she gets out to go to the toilet but having the confidence to come back out and say oh no thanks I'm just gonna stay here it it's almost I feel like it's something you develop with age yeah where to just be like no thanks I'm fine I don't care if you think I'm being rude or whatever I'm gonna do this because I don't feel

like this is right anymore I think at 20 you want to just go along and keep people happy and you don't want to rock the boat. She wouldn't have wanted to seem ungrateful to this couple. And what was the real reason? I think that comes with time and with age and with confidence, like self-confidence. Yeah, I totally agree. So Colleen did not listen to this voice of God or an angel or her gut or whatever. She just returned to the car and got back in. Once she got back into the car, Colleen saw a wooden box next to her on the back seat that had not been there before. Now, surely this is another red flag, but Colleen stayed put and did not get out of the car. The couple drive her for a further 20 minutes before asking her whether she minded if they stopped off

to look at some ice caves that it wouldn't take very long. The uneasy Colleen agreed because again like you were saying she's still thankful for the lift she doesn't want to appear rude and she's only 20. The couple turn off the main road up a lane and stopped the car. The father mother and baby got out of the car and Colleen stayed in the back seat watching out of the window. She saw the mother carrying the child, walking up to a creek. She then realised that the father was nowhere to be seen. Where had he gone? Before Colleen knew what was happening, the man had jumped in the back seat of the car

and was holding a knife to Colleen Stan's throat and was pinning her to the back seat. He asked her, are you going to do what I say? And of course, thinking her life was at risk, Colleen agreed to do whatever he wanted. Now the man handcuffs her, blindfolded her and gagged Colleen. This is where the box on the back seat comes in. It actually had hinges and opened up like a clam or something. And this is when the man puts the box on Colleen's head and locked it shut. The box on the inside was lined with carpet which would obviously dull the sound of her screams inside. Now it's not clear exactly what happened next. I think Colleen probably must have been made

to lie down in the back seat because I can't imagine her just sitting in the back seat with this massive box on her head and not drawing any attention to herself. But anyway, the couple drive Colleen, lying down or not, back to their house in Red Bluff to number 1140 Oak Street. Now, how they got her from the car into the house with the box on her head, I don't think we really know the answer to that.

Perhaps they took it off in the car and forced her inside. But anyway, once inside, the man, and this is where it gets just so dark so quickly if you were to be kidnapped the fact that it would escalate to this level immediately after entering the house is just horrifying the man forces Colleen into the basement and forces her to stand on an ice chest and he tied her hands to hooks that were attached to the ceiling he then removed her clothes and pulled the ice chest out from under her feet, leaving her naked and suspended by her

wrist hanging from the ceiling. It just gets even more insane because then he starts to whip her and Colleen blacks out at this point and only comes to when she was being let down from the hooks and the ceiling by her captors. The man walks Colleen over to the other side of the basement. He puts the box back on her head and puts her into yet another box, which I can only describe as like a plywood coffin. We'll put pictures of all of this on the Instagram because like you really have to see it to understand like just how horrendous this is. Absolutely. And all this time Colleen is blindfolded.

So imagine being naked, blindfolded, just being whipped, suspended from the ceiling. And she said she couldn't see what this looked like at first, but she could feel it from when she was put in the box

that it felt like a plywood coffin. But Colleen's hands are chained now to the sides of the box and she's just left there, disorientated, in the pitch black, in searing pain. And this is where Colleen would spend the next several years of her life.

So, hold up, I hear you cry. Who the fuck are the people in the car? They were married couple Cameron and Janice Hooker. Cameron was 23 and Janice was just 19 at the time of Colleen's abduction. And Janice, as it turned out, was just grateful to have someone to take her place. Janice and Cameron had met when Janice was 15 and Cameron was 19. Janice suffered from epilepsy. And one of the documentaries that I watched described her as having low self-esteem.

But literally show me a 15-year-old that does not have low self-esteem. Like I don't feel like that makes her any different to any other teenager. I mean, I absolutely agree, but I think that she had it to quite a crippling sense of low self-esteem. And I think the background that she had, all of that sort of combined together to make her quite a an easy victim for someone like Cameron Hooker she did have very religious incredibly strict parents who wouldn't even let her wear shorts or like a two-piece swimsuit or anything they seemed incredibly overbearing and they certainly were not letting Janice go out with boys until cameron hooker allegedly after just a half hour conversation with janice's parents he had convinced them to let him take janice out on a date so he's like the knight in shining armor at this point surely but again it's like the naivety of her parents as well

and that's what i would say if you've guys if you've got kids just by being overbearing being super protective, you're not protecting them from anything. I know I don't have children, but what I'm saying is, if you just protect them, you shelter them, you keep them completely unaware of the world, you're just doing them a disservice. Because I think this is what the problem was with Janice,

that she had no idea about the real world because her parents had kept her so sheltered but what the hell kind of salesperson was Cameron that he was able to go in there and change their mind and allow them to take her out with him of all people of all the men that she could have met and what happened on this day is absolutely unbelievable. Because honestly, I genuinely am not sure I believe that this happened. However, according to Janice, on their first date, date number one, Cameron convinced her to take her top off, suspended her from a tree, and then whipped her.

And Janice, having no frame of reference, just thought that this was totally normal and what people do on dates. I totally understand why you feel like skeptical that that might not have happened. And I'm not totally convinced that it did. It's so, it's so extra. Like that's crazy. But again, it comes back to this idea of like, she never dated anybody. She was basically never allowed out of the sights of her parents. So, and this guy, isn't it what people do when they start, like, dating? Not this. What I mean is that you start to test the boundaries.

Well, how much can I get away with this person? And is he just going full force on the first date? Let me see how much I can get away with someone like her. I can apparently convince her to get naked, tie her to a tree, and let me whip her. I can understand to a certain extent that if your school isn't teaching you about sex and your parents aren't speaking to you about sex and you're from a religious background

where sex is the worst thing you can possibly do, you are not going to understand how things work. I understand that. Talk to your kids about sex. Yeah, talk to your kids about sex. They're going to have it anyway. And this is the thing, just because if you do you might i don't know i guess the feeling is to keep them innocent to keep them pure to not let them be corrupted by that but i guarantee if you don't do

it someone like cameron hooker will will cause more damage than if you just tell them what safe sex and how to be in a healthy relationship is, in my opinion. Teaching abstinence isn't giving sex education. And pretending that it is a sin doesn't make people less likely to do it. They'll do it and then they'll feel bad about themselves. They won't not do it. Oh, yeah, definitely. Because it is the most natural thing in the world. So I think don't ill-equip and disable your children from being able to live happy healthy lives by thinking that you're

doing a favor by not teaching them i'm sure our listeners they're they're smart they know what they're doing but this i feel like is what happened to janice she just didn't she didn't know and she made her prime target yeah and if you think about it if you have an absolutely zero frame of reference for sex you don't even know what it is it is weird like you'd be like what you're gonna do what so it's not completely outrageous that it could be something else super weird if you genuinely don't know what it is i completely agree and this is what cameron took advantage of fbi profiler roy hazelwood described cameron hooker as a sexual sadist getting his kicks from inflicting excruciating pain on others and what

he saw in janice was an easily malleable personality she was so naive so sheltered he could make her whatever he wanted her to be so on january the 18th 1975 he married her in reno nevada which correct me if i'm wrong our friends in the the US, isn't Reno like the Gretna Green of the United States? Isn't it where people go to get like a quickie wedding? Yeah, I mean, it feels like it. That's where you go, like run off to Las Vegas to get married. I don't think people in the US know what Gretna Green is, but it's our version of Las Vegas, I guess, where you would go get married. Marriage-wise, marriage-wise, not anything else-wise. Now, after the wedding, according to Janice, Cameron continued to torture her. She was his

sex slave. She could never say no to him. Janice was what is known as a compliant victim, which is not a term we have come across before, I don't think. What that means is that she was compliant in her own abuse. That is, at least until 1976, when apparently she'd had enough. Now, Janice demanded a trade-off. She desperately wanted a baby, and in return, she promised Cameron Hooker that, give me a baby, and you can have a sex slave to replace me. Now, there was one rule, however, that Janice stipulated. Cameron was never permitted to have sex with the slave. Sex was reserved for her only. Now, I think this is where, when we were doing the research, the theory of the compliant victim fell apart a little bit for both of us. Because a compliant victim, like we were saying, is someone who is compliant in their own abuse. They stay, they remain remain there it's not a

derogatory term what we're saying you know don't misunderstand what we're saying is that this person asked for it that's not what we're saying saying this person knows that they're being abused they're in a bad situation but they stay regardless but why it falls apart now is because suddenly she is making demands she we said before because jan Janice said before, that she could never say no to him. But now she's saying, the torture's going to stop. You can have a sex slave. I get a baby, but you can't have sex with the sex slave. You can only have sex with me. That doesn't sound like someone who is pliable beyond recognition. She does seem to stand up for herself, at least at this point. But let's go back to Colleen and we'll

come back to, you know, what we think of Janice's sort of state of mind. Now Colleen had been left in the plywood coffin for days at a time, only being let out for food and water and to use a bedpan in the evenings before her torture sessions with Cameron would again begin. Weeks after her disappearance, Colleen's family in Riverside, California, which is 564 miles away from the hookers in Red Bluff, received a phone call from her housemates in Eugene, Oregon. So this is Colleen's housemates ringing them. They were worried because Colleen had never returned home from her trip to Westwood. Colleen's parents immediately jump in the car and drive to Westwood, California, stopping at police stations in various towns along the way to report their daughter missing no one had seen her no one had heard from her it was as if killeen had vanished into thin air killeen's family of course feared the

worst they assumed that killeen was either dead or had joined a cult and this is the 70s in california like cults are absolutely everywhere you've got the family you've got the Mansons there must be more because it's absolutely that time when you know the idea of free love and free living and everything it just allowed people like Charles Manson etc to to set up little cults like this so yeah I think it's so crazy that they were like either she's dead or she's in a cult can you imagine that those were the two options but of course dead or she's in a cult can you imagine that those were the two options but of course Colleen was not in a cult she was in a plywood coffin in Red Bluff being tortured daily by Cameron and Janice Hooker we can't forget that Janice wasn't just an enabler

she actively abused Colleen's stand too although she never spoke to her Colleen recalled that Janice would bite her while she was hanging from the ceiling. And Colleen's routine would become a ritual of abuse. It was all she knew. She was only allowed in the basement and Cameron and Janice were her own human contact. Cameron became the absolute master of her world and the absolute ruler over all aspects of her existence. Colleen spent the summer and autumn of 1977 in that plywood coffin. Her captors even gave her a slave name, Kay. And this is the thing, you know, that video that we played at the start of this episode

where you hear Colleen Stan describe herself as a prisoner of war. This absolutely is. That total like sensory deprivation, lack of human contact, ritual abuse, torture, even taking away her name. Because that's what they did to prisoners of war, wasn't it? It was like, here's a number.

This is now your number. But instead of even calling her Colleen they call her Kate it's like how much can we strip away from this girl to totally isolate her and remove her from her previous life in existence and Cameron even then goes as far as to present Colleen with a slave contract that he cut straight out of an SNL magazine this contract stated that Colleen was signing over her body and soul to cameron hooker that he owns her and colleen was to address him only as master or sir and was to address janice as ma'am and that colleen was always to wear a collar around her neck colleen signs the contract i mean what else was she supposed to do cameron hooker also signs a contract under the name of

Michael Power come on like is he kidding oh my god did you ever see in the Simpsons when it's like is it Homer decides to change his name it's like Max Power exactly he might as well have just signed it Max Power and just gone the whole way it's ridiculous it's. He's just such a sad, insecure, pathetic loser of a man. Michael Power, go fuck yourself. Like, oh, he's such a dick. It was also important to note that even though Cameron now had a contracted sex slave living in the basement of his house, he still did not stop beating Janice. Cameron also convinced Colleen that there was an underground network of slave owners only ever referred to as the company

who were watching the house at all times and would kill her if she ever escaped or worse, sell her to someone who was not nearly as kind as him. I read an article recently that said that there are more people enslaved today than there ever were during like what we would call the like era of slavery really in like modern slavery is huge i actually went to go and see a show yesterday called the sex workers opera which is made by sex workers and there was a man

an adult man playing the clarinet so apparently people do do it in their adult years i mean absolutely you're right the issue of kind of human trafficking and slavery is it is absolutely horrifying but this is the thing they had a really interesting point because they're the whole point of the show was like rights for sex workers like decriminalize sex work as a whole there's no point criminalizing the clients because that means i can't feed my kid like so it was really interesting and the trafficking argument they had this thing called boring bingo that like all of these things these sex workers hear all the time and trafficking was like the first argument and she was like yes of course trafficking happens and it is a problem that is modern slavery that is not

mutually conducive to sex work and I thought that was a really interesting point so modern slavery is a thing so I would not be surprised if there is an underground network of slave owners. I also think that the reason why I can believe that Colleen believed this is because something so unbelievable has already happened to her. I can't even imagine being actually kidnapped and being in this position. So if something this insane has already happened to you, and this is your reality now, how far a leap is it to now believe that there are there's an international sex trade organization called the company watching your every move that's not a big jump to make now that this has happened exactly and janice also fed into this telling colleen that she herself had been a slave and when she tried to escape cameron

had married her to save her from execution by the company. Total head fucks. I mean, fucking hell. Cameron told Colleen that the company had their phones tapped and they were watching her every move so trying to escape was just pointless. And the company, of course, in this case was a total fantasy.

I really think that Colleen was so broken by this point that she genuinely would have believed anything because what I think is really important is he controls her entire life. He controls when she eats, when she sleeps. He controls when she sees light. She's going to believe everything he says.

He's the complete master of her universe. Yeah, and that's the ultimate aim, isn't it? For a sexual sadist like Hooker, this is the ultimate aim and the ultimate fantasy it is to have total and absolute control over another human being and that's what they have and that's why she believes it and it did seem a little bit weird to me that janice is sort of pitching in on this as well but roy hazel with the fbi profiler makes a really good point in that janice already has a woman that she helped to kidnap locked up in a box in her basement while she's trying to raise a child so a fictitious company and a contract cut out of a bondage magazine

are just the least of her fucking worries yeah and i can also see that she probably wants to at this point is wanting to keep colleen so she can keep cameron happy so she's playing along 100 and not even just keep cameron happy but the idea that if Colleen leaves all of that torture all of that sexual sadism that he is now getting his kicks from putting on Colleen would come straight back to her because yes he doesn't stop beating Janice but I think we can all be safe to assume that once Colleen is in the house the torture that Janice will be enduring is much less. And also there's another bonus for Janice because after signing the contract Colleen is in the house, the torture that Janice will be enduring is much less. And also, there's another bonus for Janice, because after signing the contract, Colleen is allowed upstairs in the house for a few hours a day to clean it,

to do all of the housework, so Janice doesn't have to do that anymore either. But let's not forget that there is a child present for all of this, and the hookers just told their kid that Kay went home at the end of the day I shudder to think what happened to that child like if they can't have been allowed to keep it however the humiliation and psychological torture did not stop for Killeen now that she was allowed out of the basement whenever Cameron hooker shouted attention Killeen was to strip off her clothes run over to an archway in the living room

and hold up her arms. He would then whip her on the spot. Colleen explained this behaviour as, she was like, you can adjust to anything. And she was trying to be a good slave because she was so scared of the company. The whole thing of like human nature is that not only can we adapt to anything,

but we'll do anything to survive. And if she thinks me complying to this is how I survive this situation, we can do most anything for self-preservation. And in February 1978, the arrangement changed once more. I'm not 100% clear on exactly how this went down, but I'll tell the story as Colleen tells the story. Janice made a new deal with Cameron. He was now allowed to have sex with Colleen tells the story. Janice made a new deal with Cameron. He was now allowed to have sex with Colleen.

And perhaps she was thinking that he would refuse and stick to the original deal. Pushing, checking, how that person... It's a childish thing to do, though, isn't it? But I feel like we've all said something that we didn't really mean, expecting a different response. Being like, oh, no, of course I'm not going to do that

because we said blah, blah, blah. It's like, fine, if you want to go out tonight instead of hang out with me, go out with your friends then. Oh, okay. That's it, yeah. And you want him to turn around and be like, no, no, oh my God, don't even worry. Oh, that's not what I meant.

Let's stay in as we planned or let's us two hang out. Not, oh, okay, cool, you're fine with it. You seem fine with this. Bye. Yeah, exactly. We've all been there. This is another demand being made by Janice, surely. And also, it doesn't really sit right because if Janice has absolutely no power in this relationship

and Cameron is the overlord, why is he not raping Colleen from day one? If Janice is totally powerless, that doesn't make sense. Yes, she's a compliant victim to some degree. But then the fact that she was able to make any demands of him at all is very bizarre. The baby, you can have the sex life, but you can only have sex with me. And the fact that it took this long before he started to rape Colleen is very, very odd. But regardless, this change in the pact opened the floodgates and Cameron regularly raped Colleen Stan for the rest of her imprisonment. Four months after the first instance, the hookers bought an acre of land just off Highway 99 and outside of Red Bluff.

They moved into a trailer home and took Colleen with them. But now the hookers have a problem because trailers don't have basements. So where would they keep Colleen? Cameron had an idea. The couple had a waterbed in their trailer because this is literally the most 70s thing in the world ever. Cameron Hooker constructed a new box that fitted underneath the pedestal of the waterbed

and this was Colleen's new prison. She had to crawl into it on her hands and knees. You don't believe in ghosts? I get it. Lots of people don't. I didn't either, until I came face to face with them. Ever since that moment, hauntings, spirits, and the unexplained have consumed my entire life. I'm Nadine Bailey.

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the Space Shuttle. And in 1985, they announced they're sending teacher Krista McAuliffe into space aboard the Space Shuttle Challenger, along with six other astronauts. But less than two minutes after liftoff, the Challenger explodes. And in the tragedy's aftermath, investigators uncover a series of preventable failures by NASA and its contractors that led to the disaster. Follow American Scandal on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. Experience all episodes ad-free and be the first to binge the newest season only on Wondery+. You can join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Start your free trial today. So she has to voluntarily enter it.

She can't be put in it, which is important, I think. Colleen would spend years in that box under the bed, only let out to clean the trailer or to be tortured. Cameron, even with Colleen's help, built a shack behind the trailer so he would have a place to whip her in private. And he even had a Guy Fawkes-style rack that he would electrify her on as well. So not only would he stretch her out like Guy Fawkes,

Oh, fucking hell. he would be giving her electric shocks at the same time. And I think, have you ever seen Guy Fawkes Oh fucking hell. He would be giving her electric shocks at the same time and I think, have you ever seen Guy Fawkes' signature on his confession? I feel like this is a very British thing but Guy Fawkes attempted to blow up the Houses of Parliament. He was just the patsy.

Yeah. I feel like we always blame Guy Fawkes but I think he was just like a fundamentalist Catholic who wanted to blow up this thing but he was just like a fundamentalist catholic who wanted to blow up this thing but he was just like he was a soldier he was a foot soldier the real guy was Catesby oh yeah so he doesn't confess and then they put him on the rack and they stretch him out and he signs his confession and you can't even it's like he's just smacked his hand on the page it's the picture of Guy Fawkes's signature before torture and his

signature on his confession after he's been tortured for days. This is medieval. This is so medieval. But this is happening in 1970, California, to a 20 year old girl. It's absolutely barbaric what Cameron Hooker did to her. And he's spending more and more time with Colleen and Janice begins to get more and more jealous. This tense dynamic continues for a further two years and Colleen is finally released from her collar and is allowed by the Hookers to work in their garden. Whatever type of garden trailers have, I don't know. And so at this point, Cameron Hooker is so confident

that she isn't going anywhere. She can go outside on her own. I even saw in a couple of documentaries that I watched that she was allowed to go out for runs. She was allowed to run around the neighbourhood jogging because they were so confident she wasn't going anywhere. But that's the ultimate aim. That's the ultimate aim for someone like him, isn't it? It's because you don't need ropes and chains and boxes to keep someone trapped, to keep somebody locked up. And the ultimate aim for

someone like Cameron Hooker would have come from breaking her to the point that he's almost moulded her and turned her. And the confidence of letting her walk out of the door knowing that she is going to come back and knowing that she wouldn't dare speak to anybody about this. That's the ultimate thrill for someone like this, isn't it? Yeah, and she's just, she's so terrified of this mythical company that she's not even going to try to escape. Because he's done exactly what he set out to do, which was to shape her into exactly who he wanted

and have ultimate control over this other person. And in December 1980, so three years after Colleen was abducted, as a Christmas present, she was allowed by Cameron Hooker, unbelievably, to call her family. Her sister described the call as a huge relief. I mean, imagine your sister, your daughter has been missing for three years and then suddenly one Christmas you just get a phone call. Colleen was very vague on the phone, but just assured her younger sister that she was safe. And then she says that she has to go, that her time was running out.

This obviously reinforced her family's idea that Colleen had joined a cult. They were just relieved to learn that she was still alive after not hearing anything for three years. But Colleen was too afraid of the company to tell them what was really happening. And the following March in 1981, Cameron but Colleen was too afraid of the company to tell them what was really happening and the following March in 1981 Cameron told Colleen that the company had green-lighted her for a family visit. He says to her that this is for as a result of her good behavior but first she has to prove that she was truly worthy of this. Okay we've got the control is this again

just the next step in Cameron's control over Colleen? Because he wants to be like, I can take her all the way to her family and she still is under my control. Or is it an idea of a man who is clearly insecure, pathetic? I mean, if you need to control another person like that, you are not confident in yourself to any degree he's a fucking loser but is this an idea of almost justifying it to himself look i'm taking her back to her family and she's still not saying to them that i've been holding her captive it must be because now she's in love with me and it's fine that's a really good point i hadn't thought of that. An element of, like, validating it to himself. Because no one's a monster to themselves.

No one wants to be the monster. Is he now saying, oh no, she's in love with me. We're in love. Look, she's not even telling her parents that I did anything bad. Because I'm not doing anything bad. Yeah, the visit home, the 24 hours with her family, is the most problematic thing in the whole story, I think. Because this is the thing. What other motive would Cameron have for letting her do that?

I can't think of one. I can't either. And again, the other stuff that he does to her, again, is just so indicative of somebody who wants to have total control. Cameron gives Colleen a shotgun and instructs her to put it in her mouth and pull the trigger. It is some real POW shit. Yeah. The gun wasn't loaded, though, but she pulls the trigger. And it just gives you an idea of how much Colleen was being controlled by Cameron at this point.

She did everything he said. She had zero agency of her own at all. Cameron drove her to Riverside, where her family lived, and Colleen was under strict instructions to tell her family that Cameron was her fiancé. Mike Power. So he's got rid of the cull, he's just Mike now. He's Mike, he's Mike, Mike Power. He said that he was going to a seminar in San Diego, and that it was his idea to take her to see her family as obviously they'd be worried that she'd been out of touch for three fucking years. He also tells her that the company

are watching her family's house and this gives you that sense of why Colleen, who genuinely by this point in my mind would have been broken down by the torture, by the sensory deprivation, by the ritual abuse, total isolation, will totally believe that this company was real imagine going back to your family's house but being told the company are just outside and you tell them they will come in and they will murder your entire family that does suggest why she doesn't tell them what was really happening to her yeah but she doesn't write a note she doesn't like i i understand it but she doesn't it's not like she's in there desperately trying to find a way to tell them undetectably.

She just doesn't do anything. And I think though, and we'll talk about this later when we talk about kind of the Stockholm, talk about Stockholm syndrome in a bit more detail. But I think it's just one of those things that we can't understand unless it happens to you. We can understand it on a theoretical basis, but really the emotional response to being in a situation like this and why someone does or doesn't act in a certain way, I just don't think we can understand. And that's what makes it so hard

to wrap your head around a case like this and Colleen's motivations for the things that she did and didn't do. But in that time, in those 24 hours that he leaves her there, she doesn't try to escape. Like you said, she doesn't do anything. And he comes back and collects her the next day. Colleen's family noticed that Colleen, while she was there, had lost a significant amount of weight and looked very pale. But otherwise, I remember in one of the interviews we watched,

the dad just says she seemed pretty okay. And they didn't want to push her too much for answers about where she'd been for three years. And you can understand why, because they were scared that they'd just lose her again. You don't want to go in hard in a situation like that because she could just run away. So Cameron Hooker then, as I said, returns to collect Colleen and her stepmother takes a picture of the two of them. Again, with this one, we'll take a, we'll put a picture up of it on the instagram and the social medias because they look extremely fucking happy kalina smiling and embracing cameron he's smiling too they just look like a happy young couple was kaline just that far gone the picture it's so problematic like i can imagine like being in court and being like as a jury member being like oh but

that doesn't look like a captor and a victim. But it's like, was she just under his control that much that at this point she just lost so much of herself in him that she could no longer tell the difference anymore? I think that's what it has to be. Like, I feel like she isn't her own person because she's lost it. She's lost it.

It's in the plywood coffin. It's gone. That's what it has to be that she just does she just goes along with it and again we'll we'll come back to this because i think it's a really interesting idea because we could very easily just say oh it's stockholm syndrome and it is it's stockholm syndrome it's trauma bonding but why does this happen is something that i think is really much more interesting than just explaining our way with that. But when Cameron and Colleen get back to the Red Bluff trailer, a switch flipped. Colleen lost all of her privileges and Colleen went back into the box under the waterbed for three years,

only being let out late at night to clean or to be abused. Colleen became emaciated and her hair fell out. These three years seem to be a bit of a blur and the progression is less clear but seven years after Colleen's abduction in 1977 she is allowed to get a job and starts cleaning rooms in a local motel. She was out of the box but by no means was she free. She no longer slept under the waterbed but on the bathroom floor with a chain around her neck. And at this point, Cameron is having sex with Janice and raping Colleen on alternate nights.

He's just doing one and then the other. And Cameron even announces that he wants to build a dungeon where he can collect more sex slaves, like they're fucking Pokemon. Like, he's such a loser. Because he truly believes that he has the power to totally break and control any person because he's done it with Colleen and he did it with Janice before her.

So he's just like, bring him on. I can take it. I can do it. Projects. It's projects. It's like Charles Ng and Leonard Lake and their obsession with like the Miranda women. Project Miranda and having all these women that they wanted to keep as sex slaves. I mean, guys like this, it's just that how fragile and tiny

their egos are that they need to fulfill that sense of masculinity or whatever by totally controlling and owning these women. Like, seriously, fuck off. They just, they're the worst. They're the worst to me. But this is where we have our first turning point. Yeah, this is where it starts to get better, guys. Somewhere along the line, Janice starts going to a church in Red Bluff called the Church of Nazarene. And in some accounts, she even took Colleen with her. But we're not totally sure how true that is. But Janice and Colleen began to speak about the Bible together. And slowly but surely, Janice began to see Colleen as an actual human being. The guilt got too much and Janice drops the bombshell. She tells Colleen that the company isn't real. Now Colleen

heads straight to the bus station, calls her dad and tells him that she's coming home. She also calls Cameron to tell him that she's leaving and never coming back. Colleen later states in an interview that Cameron cried on the phone. Is this odd behaviour for a sexual sadist who kept this woman locked in boxes for seven years? Also, okay, what I find weird about this, Janice suddenly tells her the company aren't real. I can believe that. I can believe that. Then Colleen, just that easily, after years by this point,

after seven years of thinking that this thing is real then is just told it's not real and instantly believes it how does that happen someone who holds deep-seated beliefs think about somebody who you whose beliefs you totally disagree with could you just that's not real and then they'll just believe you no No, they won't. Somebody who holds beliefs that firmly wouldn't just be flipped that quickly, in my opinion. I agree. I also think it is very peculiar that Colleen does not go to the police. She doesn't tell her family what happened.

And like in interviews, Colleen just sort of says, oh, I didn't want to worry them. I just wanted to put it behind me. I don't feel like being kept as a sex slave in a box for seven years is something you just want to put it behind me. I don't feel like being kept as a sex slave in a box for seven years is something you just want to put behind you. Like, I feel like you'd want justice for that. So many things about this are very odd.

Another thing that I find really odd with this is, why is she calling Cameron to tell him that she's leaving and never coming back? You've now realised, oh shit, this was all a massive lie. I'm free, I can just leave. And yes, call your dad and tell him you're coming home. Dad, come get me. Why are you calling Cameron and telling him? That seems weird. And the crying? A sexual sadist doesn't cry. He would manipulate you further on the phone or he'd come and get you and fucking murder you. Yeah, he doesn't even try and convince her otherwise, it seems. He doesn't even try and convince her otherwise it

seems he doesn't even try and say oh janice is full of shit or like blah he doesn't even try i can't believe the fact that she believed it so quickly and the fact that you said like he wouldn't even he wouldn't even try it makes no sense but colleen simply couldn't believe at this point apparently that she'd been tricked for so long and that it had taken Janice so long to speak up. And in the summer of 1984, Colleen Stan, who's now 27 years old, is free. And on the 9th of August 1984, Janice, overcome with guilt about what she'd been a part of for all those years, goes to the pastor of her church and tells him everything.

Can you just imagine? This poor man has his mind completely blown and he tells Janice he needs to have someone else present. Like I just have this image of this like poor little old man and Janice being like and we kept her in the bath. And he whipped her and he raped her and I was there the whole time. Like it's completely crazy. So this guy, this pastor, he calls Al Shamblin from the local police department. And Shamblin at first does not believe a word that is coming out of Janice's mouth. Red Bluff seems to be a small town. Cameron Hooker was a reasonably well-known man. He kept to

himself, worked in a lumber mill. He was described as being super responsible at work. All the usual bollocks because he's smart enough to know not to draw any fucking attention to himself outside of the house. But Janice tells the police where Colleen is, and that she will confirm the whole story that she's told them, which of course she did. Now Colleen gave two days of interviews with the police in Red Bluff, recounting her seven-year ordeal. So the police now have Janice's guilt-stricken confession and Colleen's statement, and both of the stories match perfectly. But there's more. Janice Hooker also told her pastor and Al Shamblin that Colleen was not the first woman they had kidnapped. Janice alleged that Cameron had abducted, raped and tortured Marie Elizabeth Spanek

who had disappeared in Chico, California in 1976 so that's the year before Colleen was taken Janice claimed that they took Marie back to the house strung her up, shot her in the stomach with a pellet gun but there was no evidence at all could be found to support this apart from the fact that Janice knew this woman's name But there was no evidence at all could be found to support this, apart from the fact that Janice knew this woman's name who had gone missing. She knew when she had gone missing.

It wasn't taken any further, and Marie Spanik's whereabouts remain a mystery. I'm going to stick my neck out here and say, yeah, they absolutely did. Like, that was them. They did. Why would they know her name? Why would they know where she was from? And why would they know the time that she was taken absolutely and janice is doing all of this now out of a sense of like absolute guilt like an overwhelming sense of guilt why would she lie yeah she's like a reborn christian now yeah why would she lie about about this that goes against why she's doing this in the first place. So on the 22nd of August 1984, the police arrest Cameron Hooker on suspicion of abduction,

false imprisonment, and rape of Colleen Stan. He did not seem at all surprised. He didn't question the charges and he had almost no reaction. And Christine Maguire, she spells it differently, but she's still a badass,

so we're Maguires together. Christine Maguire was the lawyer for the prosecution, and upon searching the hooker's trailer, she found two of the head boxes, the rack, whips, chains, hooks in the ceiling, leather restraints, and a roll of undeveloped film, which included harrowing pictures of Colleen being tortured, and crucially, a photograph of the slave contract. And when she took the stand, Colleen was calm and recounted her story just as she had to the Red Bluff Police Department. At times she did even seem a bit surprised by her own actions, like she genuinely couldn't understand

now she was out of that situation why she had ever acted in that way. And the prosecution brought in captivity expert Dr. Chris Hatcher, a clinical understand now she was out of that situation why she had ever acted in that way and the prosecution brought in captivity expert dr chris hatcher a clinical psychologist who explained how it is entirely possible to break a person and to coerce them into a set of behaviors i think that's so important that the prosecution did that at this trial because i think even though this happened to colleen exactly like I said she was surprised by her own actions I don't think that she would have been able to even begin to articulate why she did the things that she did yeah I think it was so crucial to have someone like this

captivity expert clinical psychologist there to explain this is why this was this is why she behaved this way to explain to the jury more so than just that than Colleen saying yeah and also maybe that could be a factor of why she didn't tell her family because she just didn't want to answer the questions because she didn't have the answers in cases of domestic abuse we see this all the time where it's like don't want to talk about it you don't want to have those conversations because you know that it's not a good situation to be in but you can't almost explain why you're still with that person and I think that you're right Colleen wouldn't have had the answers

to give a reasoned enough story for why she'd been there and by the time that he took her to see her family she'd been there for years how could she explain to them why she'd been there for years he put her in such an impossible set of situations that she could never even articulate why she had disappeared, why this had happened and why she was suddenly there but with this guy. Like none of it makes any sense. Dr Hatcher continued to work with Colleen after the trial to try and help her make sense of her decision-making process throughout her imprisonment. But the defence however had their own psychology expert, Dr Donald Lundy of Stanford University, who provided a case against brainwashing, stating that it was simply impossible. I just feel like in these cases, don't you think, you can find an expert that will say anything about anything?

Oh, literally, I could find an expert that says the sun shines out of my arse if I've got enough money. You can find an expert for anything. Absolutely, because, you know, this guy has done research that has shown him that brainwashing is not possible. That expert comes along and says that it absolutely is. So it just almost resets everything back to a point where it's like, you're just now deciding on which expert you believe more. But what the prosecution did do, that it is just so, I don't know, how would you describe this in a word? Aggressive. Aggressive. Aggressive is the good, is the right

word for this. So what the prosecution did was they reconstructed the box under the waterbed where Colleen was kept and even allowed the jury to get inside it if they wanted. And this box remained in the centre of that courtroom throughout the entirety of that trial. I mean, can you imagine as a member of that jury, listening to Colleen stand, give testimony, looking at that box, you may have even had a chance to get inside that box and not have a visceral reaction to that.

Well, exactly, and I also read that I think about 70% of the jury went to the sentencing to support Colleen. They felt so connected to her during the trial that they they were with her you know what's interesting about the trial as well is that Janice was granted total immunity due to her handing over Cameron Hooker and the defense attorney Ronald Papendank's case entirely revolved around consent. When Cameron took the stand, he freely admitted that he had indeed abducted Colleen Stan in 1977. But the statute of limitations on abduction in the state

of California at the time was only three years. So they only had to prove that Colleen stayed as a sex slave with the hookers for seven years of her own free will. Because there was no way he couldn't be, he couldn't be prosecuted or you know any ramifications come from the fact that he had kidnapped her so it's very convenient and he's easily saying yeah i did kidnap her but then she stayed of her own free will to fuck's sake so the defense's key evidence to this was the visit to colleen's family in riverside stating that at no point did she attempt to make her escape. They said she could have passed a note to her family,

but she didn't. Also what they said, which I found quite interesting, is like, so it's like a 400, 500 mile drive. Every time the car stops, she can get out, she can run, and she doesn't. And that is their argument. And then they've got this picture of them looking like a loved up couple

you know so there is they are managing to support their argument but in order to support their argument you have to accept Stockholm syndrome isn't happening here and that someone wouldn't be psychologically broken by what Cameron Hooker did to her and I think so much of it is so convenient for the defense to be able to use even the even the contract it was torn out of an snm magazine when you look at it within the context of this case and what he was doing to colleen it is absolutely horrifying when you look at step back and look at it from the fact that it was torn out of an snm magazine probably a bit of a bit of a lark between a consenting if it's used you know between two consenting adults who just want to like experiment with snm it's totally

harmless and gimmicky and novel you put that together with the photo with the fact that he took her back to see her family you can see why the defense didn't have a pathetic case. They had stuff that they could use. But again, it's exactly like you said, you have to assume that Stockholm Syndrome, trauma monitoring isn't a real thing. And I think we both obviously agree that that's not the case. You don't have to go to this level of extreme, where you find a girl kidnapped by this crazy man who keeps her captive in a box and tortures her and she doesn't run away and it's Stockholm syndrome. Just look at pretty much any case of domestic abuse. There's not been a time where when a domestic abuse case goes to court

or something or is even just being talked about where somebody won't think why didn't she just leave or why didn't he just leave? because you have to understand that this kind of psychological breaking this brainwashing the trauma bonding that happens is absolutely real and then another star piece of evidence for the defense was that they had love letters written by Colleen to Cameron Hooker stating that she felt herself falling more and more in love with him now Maguire had never seen these letters and Colleen had never told her about them so Christine Maguire didn't even read them when they were passed to her in the courtroom

as she didn't want the jury to see a flicker of surprise on her face. Colleen maintained that she told Cameron that she loved him because the better she treated him, the better he treated her. I don't understand why she didn't tell her lawyer like why would you allow your attorney to be blindsided in the courtroom? It's embarrassing isn't it? Yeah. It's embarrassing I think that's what it is it is this all of this humiliation and torture has been happening to Colleen for years and then to then also tell people there are also letters that I wrote him where I told him

I was in love with him just imagine the shame she would have been feeling and again I think you have to put yourself in the situation of this girl was doing everything she had to do to survive but then when you come out of that situation like she said she didn't even understand why she behaved the way she behaved to then tell people he was beating me he was torturing me he was doing this but i still maybe she did love him but doesn't mean that she wasn't his victim and doesn't mean that he's not the absolute criminal in this case cameron hooker showed absolutely no remorse he even just seems a little bit like yeah i've got two women what and over the course of the five-week trial the jury had to decide whether Colleen ever really had the freedom to leave. They found Cameron Hooker guilty on the

31st of October 1985 of abduction, wrongful imprisonment, and 10 counts of sex crimes, which seems like a really weird terminology. What is a sex crime? What does that mean? Don't know. So Cameron Hooker was sentenced to the maximum term of 104 years in prison. And Judge Clancy Knight stated that Cameron Hooker was the most dangerous psychopath that he had ever come across. And that he was a danger to women everywhere for as long as he walked free. And Janice Hooker filed for divorce after the conviction and just slipped away into anonymity, refusing to comment on the case ever again, simply stating that that part of her life was over. Colleen Stan now has a daughter and volunteers as a phone operator for sexual and domestic abuse

victims. So I'm really glad that Colleen was able, I mean, even when you watch her, she's so strong after everything she's gone through to come through that and to now use her experience to help other people going through the same thing I think is absolutely commendable and as we've talked about throughout this case the key question here is is this Stockholm syndrome how far does it go and if you believe that a human being can be totally broken by another person then you can believe Colleen's version of events. This is I think absolutely gets to the crux of this case is what you believe about the impact that one person can have on another person in their ability to break them down and totally reset them and completely control every aspect of their mind and their lives. People talk about Stockholm syndrome quite a lot

but what does how does it actually manifest itself? More so than in this case, there's a really interesting documentary out there of the story of JC Dugard, who was held captive for, I don't know, even longer. Was it like 17 years? Something crazy. She had children with the guy that was holding her captive. And in that story of JC Dugard, I feel like it explains better than I've ever had it explained to me about why Stockholm Syndrome happens. And the case is, this person is totally responsible for your isolation, your loneliness, your lack of freedom.

They are the one keeping you locked up in whatever sense they are. But they are also the person that then brings you your food, that then brings you your food, that then brings you your water, then brings you companionship after a day of maybe being totally locked up by yourself. So as much as you hate that person because they're depriving you of your freedom, they're also the person that is keeping you alive. So that bond forms through the trauma that they are inflicting, which is so ironic and bizarre and you know just completely insane that I can understand why it's hard to understand but I think that's what happened that's what happens that's how Stockholm syndrome manifests itself as far as I can understand it

because the original case like where it comes from is this robbery in Sweden where four hostages refuse to testify against their captor because they identify with him so much. And like you said, you see it with domestic violence, prisoners of war, and especially with this case, actually. I think it's worth doing an in-depth Minnesota on Stockholm Syndrome because there are people that think it just doesn't exist at all. So it would be really interesting to get into both sides of the story on that I did spend quite a lot of the time researching just being a bit unsure how much of this I believed and whether I thought what I thought about Stockholm Syndrome and how far I could believe Colleen's story until I started thinking about cults you can see in Jonestown Manson family like people can be brainwashed they they can be controlled, and they can

be made to do terrible things over a period of time because their ego is broken down by another person. So that's what really convinced me of this. And the question is, was Colleen a willing partner in her own enslavement? Was it coercion or was it consent and i think that even if she felt like she was making a decision to do something to tell him that she loved him is it really her decision because he's just broken but again i think it does come down to this idea of like the bond that would inevitably develop over time he had her for seven years and the kind of manipulation the torture and then doing rewarding it with tiny little rewards like oh you can go out for a run today you can come up out from the basement today

but then it'll flip tomorrow no you're back in the box like that level of sort of like extreme behavior would and the isolation she had no one else she had nowhere else to go i think that that is just like a cumulative thing that builds over like time and i think it it does it creates a weird sense of where i think she would have felt like she maybe was in love with him but it's because of what he's done to her i think so but please let us know what you think on the facebook group we love it, follow us on all of the social medias at redhandedthepod leave us more 5 star reviews if you get a chance and if you would like to give us some money

you can find us at patreon.com forward slash redhanded, you get loads of free bonus, well not free bonus stuff, you're paying for it you get bonus stuff, and also our undying gratitude because we just can't believe how many of you are doing it and it's just it makes such a huge difference to us so thank you so much and we'll see you next week bye cool hey guys just quickly before you go we have an announcement we will be doing our live episode

that we promised you because we reached our 150 a month patreon goal we are going to be doing it via google hangout this coming sunday sunday the 10th of december we'll be doing it 8 p.m british time 3 p.m eastern time and noon pacific time be there or be square you'll be able to ask us any questions you want and we've got a really juicy case for you look out for the link on our patreon page and you can just click it and join in. Easy as that. I'm Jake Warren, and in our first season of Finding, I set out on a very personal quest to find the woman who saved my mum's life. You can listen to Finding Natasha right now exclusively on Wondery+. In season two, I found myself caught up in a new journey

to help someone I've never even met. But a couple of years ago, I came across a social media post by a person named Loti. It read in part, Three years ago today that I attempted to jump off this bridge, but this wasn't my time to go. A gentleman named Andy saved my life. I still haven't found him. This is a story that I came across purely by chance, but it instantly moved me and it's taken me to a place where I've had to consider some deeper issues around mental health. This is season two of Finding, and this time, if all goes

to plan, we'll be finding Andy. You can listen to Finding Andy and Finding Natasha exclusively and ad-free on Wondery Plus. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify. Harvard is the oldest and richest university in America. But when a social media-fueled fight over Harvard and its new president broke out last fall, that was no protection. Claudian Gay is now gone. We've exposed the DEI regime, and there's much more to come. This is The Harvard Plan, a special series from the Boston Globe and WNY there's much more to come.