RedHanded - Episode 235 - Breck Bednar: Playing Games

Episode Date: March 3, 2022

Every parent's worst fear is that their child is taken away from them.  Some imagine that if they relax for a second their child could be snatched from their grasp. But what if you did everything right?  What if you identified the danger? What if you told the police? What if your child was tricked and manipulated right in front of your eyes? That is the living hell experienced by Lorin LaFave and Barry Bednar, and that is the story of Breck Bednar and Lewis Daynes. Get the audiobook here! May 27th London Live Show Tickets: Tickets through DICE! Become a patron: Patreon Order a copy of the book here (US & Canada): Order on Wellesley Books Order on Amazon.com Order a copy of the book here (UK, Ireland, Europe, NZ, Aus): Order on Amazon.co.uk Order on Foyles Follow us on social media: Instagram Twitter Visit our website: Website Contact us: Contact Sources: https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p03cgtx5  https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/jan/12/lewis-daynes-stabbed-breck-bednar-essex-sentenced-chelmsford-crown-court https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-47283872  https://www.surrey.police.uk/police-forces/surrey-police/areas/campaigns/campaigns/2018/brecks-last-game-film/  https://www.essexlive.news/news/essex-news/breck-bednar-video-shows-how-2718258  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zh9zS21wi8&ab_channel=adewwcdc See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to Red Handed early and ad-free. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. They say Hollywood is where dreams are made. A seductive city where many flock to get rich, be adored, and capture America's heart. But when the spotlight turns off, fame, fortune, and lives can disappear in an instant. Follow Hollywood and Crime, The Cotton Club Murder on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. 25 years ago, we were all scared silly

by the idea of stranger danger. The terrifying man in the trench coat hiding in an alleyway, ready to pounce and kidnap everyone's children. Do you remember the trench coat man? Yes. With the big eyes that we were shown at school, in school videos for Stranger Danger? Oh, yeah. Yeah.

That's such a like recessed memory that just like crawled out from the back of my brain. I wonder the way I'm visualizing him, is it actually what he looked like? Because I'm imagining a little trilby situation, some big eyes, kind of like the eye emoji, the looking eyes emoji and a trench coat. And he'd like hide over a wall and look at children. Yes. Or is this like the Mandela effect where I'm just telling you this and now everybody is having this same weird memory? No, I can't find it.

Is he a cartoon? In my head he's a cartoon. He was a cartoon. Anyway, somebody find it for us and maybe we'll continue to look after we finish recording this episode. But that is what I think of when I think of my childhood and the dangers that we were told about. Stranger danger, there's a man in a trench coat, possibly or possibly not wearing a trilby, hiding behind

a wall and he's going to get you. Also, don't cross railways. Yeah, don't play on the railway tracks. Don't mess around with Ouija boards. Exactly. But what if this dangerous stranger wasn't someone lurking on a street corner or hiding in an alleyway? What if your child didn't even consider them to be a stranger? What if they weren't even an adult in a trilby and a trench coat? And worst of all, what if they weren't hiding down a dark alleyway, but rather lurking into your life as your child is sitting safely under your own roof. In today's case, we explore a story that reinforces the true stranger danger nightmare, the one that exists on the internet. Lauren Lefebvre and Barry Bednar moved to the UK from America in 1996. Three years later,

Breck, the eldest of the Bednar children, was born. Breck's three younger siblings, Sebastian, Carly and Chloe, were triplets and they came along very soon after. It's got absolutely nothing to do with this story apart from the fact that he has triplet siblings, but fucking our triplets. Yeah, fraternal as well. Yikes. We've got a lot of multi-birth cases coming up, actually.

So yeah, the triplets were soon hot on breck's tail and breck's parents eventually separated but they maintained a good relationship and the family were happy and close as a young boy breck's biggest passion was building fixing and tinkering with anything he could get his hands on breck and his dad barry's shared hobby was going to the local fields and firing model rockets into the sky. I think that's illegal. Oh. Because, do you remember, did you ever read Danny Champion of the World when we were kids? Yes.

And he makes, like, paper lanterns. That's fully illegal now. Oh, I think I did know that, actually, because people were letting them off at their weddings and stuff, and they were like, you can't do this anymore. Yeah, it's not very environmentally friendly no nor is especially nor is uh releasing balloons oh god i know what's a fucking whale can choke on it don't do it and maybe because of his illegal rocket firing or maybe because of something else

entirely as brett grew older his aptitude for engineering became focused specifically on computers. Breck loved computers. He loved building them, he loved fixing them, he loved tinkering with them, and he loved playing video games on them. Age 13, Breck was an A-star, high-achieving student and budding air cadet by day. And by night, he was a full-on, full-time computer fanatic. By 2013, age 13, Breck had settled into a group of friends who all shared his passion for computer gaming, and every night after school they would come home and play together. At this point, it's important to remember that this isn't the now-times internet, it's the 2013 internet, and a lot has changed in the past nine years.

I think the extent of my internet usage in 2013, which is the year I graduated university, Facebook only, I had a Blackberry in 2013. I remember very specifically, I didn't get Instagram until I was in Korea. I didn't get Facebook until I was at uni. Yeah, but you know, you had boys in your classrooms. I didn't. Yeah, that's true. Yeah, I remember I was talking to my friend Mayaa about this and one of our friends elder brothers was like very cool lived in la it's a bit older than us and maya was like he showed me this picture with the most like basic filter on it in like 2011 and i was like what is this witchcraft oh yeah oh my god like 2013 doesn't seem like it was a very long time ago and in real time it's not that long ago yeah but in computer internet times

it might as well be another fucking generation absolutely several yeah and i also think one of the biggest changes as well from the early days of the home pc to today is that when we first got computers i can't remember what year that was but was, but the first computer we had in my family home when I was a kid, when I was around Breck's age, it was in a communal space. Oh, yeah, the computer room, yeah. It was in the computer room or it was in the dining room or it was at the back of the living room on the dining table. It was not in my personal bedroom as a laptop or as a smartphone that I can access the internet. I think that is one of the most scary and biggest pivotal changes when it comes to the internet, because at least then your parents could sort of see what you were doing. Even if you're on MSN, you could have been chatting to any old pedo,

but they could see something. You weren't like chat rouletting them in front of your parents. No, no, no, no. I think by the time I was doing my GCSEs, I did have a laptop, but that's only because I was, because hashtag dyslexia, I typed all of my exams. So I did have a laptop, but it never even crossed my mind to be secretly on it. Mainly because my mum would just come in my room whenever she wanted.

Oh yeah, there's that too. There's that too. So for context, in 2013, creators on YouTube would happily use racial slurs for comic effect. We've all seen the video of Shane Dawson in blackface. People would often share gory videos as well for a bit of a laugh. And Reddit even had a community dedicated to cute female corpses. They still have sexy abortions. They do still have sexy abortions.

It's just, I think the internet is still obviously a wild place. The wild wild wild west the whole that's maybe that's what the www stands for you can find me at wild wild west dot google dot com but no it is very much so but i think back then in 2013 there weren't even the sort of safety precautions that are in place now no in existence no i don't think you could you could put a child look on your tv via teletext i think was the uh i remember teletext yeah getting the weather updates on teletext booking your holiday on teletext with that black background and the neon font what a time what a time to be alive speaking

of the internet i was going to tell you this on under the duvet i've been meaning to tell you for weeks actually but i keep forgetting so i'll just tell you now a friend of mine who's getting married in switzerland his wife-to-be is a data scientist and she did her post-doctorate at cern in switzerland which is why she's there and she is currently working on a ginormous telescope there's going to be one in Cape Town and one in Australia and these telescopes individually are going to produce as much data is on the internet every year so her job is to figure out how that's going to work oh well that sounds terrifying big girl stuff big girl stuff so yeah the same amount of data as is on the internet now, every year that telescope is going to produce.

I don't want to know. I asked her, I was like, do you think, so what do you think? Are there aliens? And are you sick of that question? She was like, I think honestly, if we find extraterrestrial life, it'll be like mold or something really boring. Yeah, we don't want to find something more advanced. They'll fucking kill us. They will. That's what will happen. So let's stop looking for them, I say. Hi, I'm Lindsey Graham, the host of Wondery Show American Scandal. We bring to light some of the biggest controversies in U.S. history. Presidential lies, environmental disasters, corporate fraud. In our latest series, NASA embarks on an ambitious program to reinvent space exploration with the launch of its first reusable vehicle, the Space Shuttle.

And in 1985, they announced they're sending teacher Krista McAuliffe into space aboard the Space Shuttle Challenger, along with six other astronauts. But less than two minutes after liftoff, the Challenger explodes. And in the tragedy's aftermath, investigators uncover a series of preventable failures by NASA and its contractors that led to the disaster. Follow American Scandal on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. Experience all episodes ad-free and be the first to binge the newest season only on Wondery Plus. You can join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify. Start your free trial today. You don't believe in ghosts? I get it. Lots of people don't. I didn't either until I came face to face with them.

Ever since that moment, hauntings, spirits, and the unexplained have consumed my entire life. I'm Nadine Bailey. I've been a ghost tour guide for the past 20 years. I've taken people along with me into the shadows, uncovering the macabre tales that linger in the darkness, and inside some of the most haunted houses, hospitals, prisons, and more. Join me every week on my podcast, Haunted Canada, as we journey through terrifying and bone-chilling stories of the unexplained.

Search for Haunted Canada on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you find your favorite podcasts. Sorry, back off the internet data telescope and back onto the 2013 internet. So in 2013, things like being able to report users for breaking the rules of a specific website were still very new and often didn't work particularly well. If at all, no Facebook admins here.

So for the most part, the internet was sort of left to police itself. And all of this was especially true for the bit of the internet that Breck and his friends were particularly interested in. PC gaming. Now PC gaming is a bit more involved than, say, using a console like Xbox. If you got an Xbox for your birthday, you'd just plug it in, connect it to your TV, and away you go. You'd send your mates a couple of friend requests, and, connect it to your TV, and away you go. You'd send your mates a couple of friend requests, and straight away you could chat with them and play games together. I never actually did any of that, but I do have a brother who did all of that.

So it seems quite straightforward if you're buying, like, a standard games console and doing your gaming that way. However, on a PC, things aren't that simple. On a PC, you need all of your friends to be using the same app to communicate with each other, and you either need to buy or build a computer powerful enough to play the latest games. This more involved nature of PC gaming is the reason that it tends to lend itself to a slightly more cliquey and realistically slightly more nerdy crowd. Brett being the budding computer engineer he was, he built his own computer. And every night he would go home to play computer games and chat with his friends on TeamSpeak. TeamSpeak is a messaging app, a bit like an early version of Discord or Microsoft Teams. And just like Discord or Teams, to chat with your friends,

you need to be invited to an online group within the app, which is called a server. The TeamSpeak server that Breck and his friends used was run by someone called Louis Danes. And according to the BBC documentary on this very case, at the height of the server's popularity, it had over 400 people using it regularly. And in the today times, that might not sound like that much when everyone who was on Love Island for half a second has millions of followers. But running a server like that, that big in 2013, would have been an enormous undertaking. The person running it would have needed a great knowledge of computing and all things internet. Luckily, or maybe not so luckily, those were things that Lewis Danes had in spades.

Danes was a 17-year-old gifted computer engineer, originally from Greys, Essex. With such a deep knowledge of computing that it was no wonder he had a full-time job in New York working for the US government. Once Breck and his friends had joined Danes' TeamSpeak server, they very quickly got to know him. Not only did Danes run the online space that the boys hung out in,

but he also ran super-fast servers, so they could play games in their own private online space away from the public. Danes also made no attempt to hide the fact that he was a bit older than Breck, because remember, he's 17. Breck and his friends, like we said, they're 13. In fact, Danes very much enjoyed playing the part of the older boy in the group, who had more life experience, more money, a better knowledge of gaming, and Danes proved how good he was at computer engineering by modifying the games they all played together, changing and altering the computer code to create completely new games. To a group of 13-year-old boys who'd just started

dipping their toes into the internetty waters, Louis Danes was the coolest guy they'd ever met. And to Breck, Danes quickly became an idol. It really doesn't take much when you're 13. No, it doesn't. But it does help when you're like, I'm a tech millionaire or tech mega richo and I own all these servers, etc, etc. Who was your idol when you were 13?

Who was my idol when I was 13? God. What year are you in when you're 13? You're seven, you're eight. I honestly don't. It was probably something incredibly tragic like Avril Lavigne. I don't know. I think mine's more tragic.

It was Ruthie Henshaw. Who's that? She's a musical theatre performer. That's what I would have guessed. Yeah, yeah.. It was Ruthie Henshaw. Who's that? She's a musical theatre performer. That's what I would have guessed. Yeah, yeah. Love you, Ruthie. And just like 13-year-old Hannah and her parasocial relationship with Ruthie Henshaw,

Danes was everything Breck wanted to be. He was a tech genius. He made loads of money and he was travelling the world working on computers. Soon, Breck wanted to hang out with Lewis Danes more than anyone else. I still want to hang out with Ruthie Henshaw. Ruthie, hit me up. And Danes quickly took Breck under his wing, teaching him how to modify games and talking to him more and more about the coding that Breck loved so much. As Breck and his friends

got to know Danes better, he started to reveal more about his life abroad, working as a computer engineer. He told them how he made millions of dollars from trading and mining Bitcoin, and that his wage was so high that he'd actually given most of his money away to charity. He also flashed his card in front of the younger boys, spending money on renting super-fast servers for them to play games on. Soon, Breck was spending so much time online with Danes that Breck's mum, Lorin, began to pick up on their online friendship. She also noticed that Danes, unlike the other boys, was a lot more confident when she came into Breck's room. Danes would often talk

to her over the microphone, asking how she was was doing and going out of his way to make conversation lauren an american herself remember would ask danes if he was enjoying his time in new york and why he wasn't out with a friend or a partner to which danes always said he'd rather stay in playing games with breck and the others and soon lauren's very own red flag sensor began to tingle that is quite a mum thing I remember when I first moved into the flat that I met you in, living with two guys in their 30s and I was what, 27, something like that. And my mum was like, why are they in their 30s and they haven't hooked up with anyone yet? They must be really weird. And here we are. Here we are, 31. Not living in that flat anymore, though. No, no, no, I have, no.

No, I'm not. And it was also around this time that Danes started to talk to 13-year-old Breck more seriously about Breck's future. He told Breck that his talents were being wasted at school and that he should consider starting a tech company of his own, saying that after all, he, Danes, had started his career at Breck's age. And the more time that Breck and Danes spent together online, the more Danes drilled down on the rhetoric of how Breck's education was a total waste of time and how school was absolutely holding him back. And soon things progressed further, and Danes began to confront Breck on things like going to church.

He even had the confidence to argue with Breck's mum, Lorin, about Breck's religious upbringing over voice chat. Mmm. Yep. Lorin was starting to feel that the less time Breck spent with this rich older boy, the better, and she wasn't the only one. I would think the same thing

if a teenage boy had the absolute audacity to tell me how to raise my child over a computer yeah some of the other kids in breck's friendship group also started to feel a bit weird about the fact that even those in the group who'd never met in person were friends on facebook except danes in fact there was no record of lewis danes on the internet at all, apart from his gaming profiles. And it wasn't long before some of the older boys started to question parts of Danes' narrative. They even started to make fun of him, something that I'm sure you can imagine Danes did not like one single bit. In response, Danes started banning people who questioned him from coming into his TeamSpeak server, and he began spending more one-on-one time with Brecht. You can't be mean to me. I'm going home, I'm telling. Yeah, I mean,

it's very much part of Danes' psychopathology, as we will go on to discover. So as his relationship with Danes got more intense, Brecht's friends tried to speak with him about how it was becoming unhealthy. But Brecht didn't like the speak with him about how it was becoming unhealthy. But Brecht didn't like the way that his friends were talking about Louis Danes. Danes was his friend. He taught him loads about coding. He'd spent real money on servers so that they could all play together. It felt like they were being really unfair. It started to feel like they weren't really his friends anymore. And I think, again, this speaks to Brecht's like, not just like, he's a 13-year-old kid, so obviously he's's naive but it also speaks to his loyalty he's like this guy's done so much for us

like why is everybody questioning him and the boys who are questioning him are older than breck they're a couple of years ahead of him you have to remember that he is a 13 year old child he really will take things at face value and danes has done things that make it seem plausible like paying for those servers then danes told breck some absolutely heartbreaking news he told breck that he'd hacked into a voice channel that breck's friends were using to talk about him behind his back and apparently according to danes these boys had been bitching about Breck, saying that they'd never really liked him in the first place. That's like every 13-year-old's worst nightmare. Like, you're so insecure in yourself anyway.

Yeah. And then you already know that your friends have been challenging some of your decisions, like hanging out with Danes. Of course you're going to believe that they've been talking about you. So, of course, for Breck, this was absolutely crushing. As far as he was concerned concerned they were his best friends. And when the other boys found out what had been said, they tried reaching out to Breck through the TeamSpeak server. They even joined a voice call with Breck and tried to convince him that Danes was lying to him.

But remember that these calls and these chats are happening on Danes' own server. So as soon as they start, Danes can see that they've started and he just swoops in enters the chat and defends himself and says that those boys are the ones who are lying and in November 2013 the older boys who'd grown tired of Lewis Danes decided to leave the TeamSpeak server for good and it would be the last time any of them would speak to Breck Bednar. Breck had now been speaking to Danes for about eight months he was a a shadow of the boy who'd joined the server with his friends.

Breck's school friends had noticed that he didn't really smile anymore or join in with General Chit Chat, and he'd stopped taking any interest in his other hobbies like air cadets. Air cadets, for our international listeners, is where children pretend to be in the Air Force, and they give them guns and they are allowed to fly planes. And that's fine, apparently. Breck had become completely isolated from his friends,

and now, through Danes' encouragement, he was pushing his family away too. It started off small. When Danes would hear Breck's mum in the background of their voice calls, he would tell Breck not to listen to her, and tell him to refuse to do his chores. With this, Breck started to develop an attitude towards his parents that they'd never seen before.

Worried about the change in her son, Lorin tried to confront Louis Danes on his TeamSpeak server. The pair had an argument over text chat with Lorin, asking Danes why he felt he could interfere with her parenting. Danes told her that Breck was, quote, a good boy. And that, quote, it was his siblings who should be doing the cleaning, not Breck. Pardon? I know, I know. I'm... What's happening?

A ghast. Yeah, but again, it's like, it's part of the ritual, isn't it? Because it's like, look, I'm standing up for you when no one else will. Your mum's such a bitch, she makes you do cleaning around the house. It's like, what? I suppose it's a reasonably unique situation for Breck's mum because she's like, oh, all of these changes are happening to my son. And I can pinpoint it to this one thing that he's doing where quite often with teenagers, parents are just sort of told that like they'll grow out of it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because obviously the change that's happening in Breck is also happening coincidentally at age 13, which is probably when you start to see the biggest change happening in your child insofar as their attitude towards you. But the influence of Louis Danes is palpable, especially when it's not even like she's hearing it secondhand from Breck, being like, Louis says I shouldn't have to do this. He's saying it to her. I just can't even imagine that. We'll come back to talking about Louis Danes but yeah it's a lot. So of course

after this weird call in which Louis Danes is telling Lauren even more how she should be parenting her child Lauren felt that she now had some semblance of a terrifying insight into the mind of the person that her son was spending all of his time with. So Lauren and Breck's dad Barry threatened to take away Breck's computer if he kept acting out. And they told Breck that if he wanted to keep speaking to Danes, they would need to meet him in person.

Lauren was rightly worried, of course, that Danes was actually some sort of 40-year-old paedophile. But Danes refused to meet Breck's parents, saying that he had too much work on and that it was absolutely impossible. And so, on the 17th of December 2013, Lauren contacted Surrey Police. She gave them Louis Dane's name, age, and told them that she believed he was originally from Essex.

The police told Lauren that they would check their system, but Lauren never heard anything back. One of the most crushing things about this case is they do everything. That's such an important point to make. I mean, yeah, things are going to get very, very, very bad. It breaks my heart because yeah, Lauren and Barry do everything right. They try their absolute best to help their son. And I don't want to be like some sort of scaremonger being like, this could happen to anybody. This could happen to your child quick. But like, that's what it feels like. Yeah. If the police had got back to Lorraine,

if they had even bothered to run the cheque that she had asked for, which it seems like they didn't, because if they had, Lorraine would have been told that Lewis Danes had been charged with undisclosed sex offences three years earlier, when he was just 15. Having not heard back from the police and becoming increasingly worried about Breck's safety, Lorin and Barry decided to have a serious talk with their son.

And under instruction from Louis Danes, Breck secretly recorded that talk so that Danes could listen to what was being said. Jesus. Yep. And this clip that we're about to play you now is from that very same talk, and it was later recovered by the police. That's why we're concerned, Brent. And the stuff that we hear scares us to death. It just sounds incredibly hot, working for a major consulting firm in the U.S. when you're 16 years old. 17.

It's passable. And what that does is it raises a flag to us that something else is wrong here. It's going to sound weird, but there's no one else who sort of i their interest with in not in real life in gaming there's no there's not that connection where you have sort of mutual interest i don't really see the value of worrying about this anymore i will do what you want i will sort of distance distance myself from Lewis. It's not worth getting too involved with someone who you don't know in real life, I guess. So as we all heard there, Breck's dad, because he's an adult man with an adult man brain,

wasn't convinced that Lewis Danes was who he said he was. I think he actually said it's laughable. Yeah. And again, it's just like like obviously the conversation between breck and his parents are as confrontational but they are trying very hard to treat him like an adult sit him down have a conversation be like point out the flaws in this story being presented to him by this stranger on the internet yeah absolutely and like they're doing commendable parenting and i can't describe the feeling of, you know, when even, you know, obviously we don't have kids, but like when sometimes when I deal with people who are younger than me, they'll say something and I'll be like, no, you didn't. There is just no way that

is true. Until you have enough life experience, I think you're more likely to believe what people say. And you're also more likely to lie and expect people to believe it. Oh yeah. But obviously because Breck's only 13 he couldn't understand why his parents were being so mean about his friend but he could probably sense that arguing too hard might result in his computer being taken away. So Breck decided to play ball. However Lauren was not going to be pacified that easily and to make sure that Breck stood by his word, she took away all of his gaming equipment. I don't really see what other choice she had. No, this is the thing.

She's been pushed to the point that she has no other option. And Breck took all of his gaming situations being confiscated extremely badly. But his parents felt like they had no choice because they didn't. They were pleased to hear no mention of Louis Danes over Christmas 2013. In fact, it finally seemed like they had their old son back. Little did they know, Danes had secretly sent Breck a mobile phone. This is like, I'm trying to think of a comparison that doesn't sound flippant. I mean, it is what it is, which is an older person manipulating someone younger into a relationship that's completely outrageous. The power dynamic here is, although they are only a couple of years apart, is completely outrageous.

And you see here that Danes is obsessed with Breck because he has access to other boys through his server. When his parents take away his gaming equipment and he can no longer do that, Danes doesn't just move on to somebody else. He knows. And that's why he sends his mobile to Breck to continue that relationship. And this sending of the secret phone might seem small, but it is such a significant moment in this story because it's the moment that Breck Bednar and Louis Danes' relationship became physical and they were no longer just interacting virtually. This moment also represents a big risk for Danes. So far he's managed to separate himself from Breck's life through a kind of virtual smoke screen but by sending Breck a phone he creates a very real physical connection to the person who

he is grooming. And grooming is absolutely 100% what is going on here. Firstly we know what you've all started to suspect that Louis Danes isn't who he says he is but the thing is he was 18 and he was originally from Greys in Essex but that's pretty much all of it when it comes to the truth-telling. It seems obvious because you're all intelligent people that he was not employed by the US government and he didn't live in America or even work there. Lewis Danes was abandoned by his parents aged six and then pushed around the foster care system.

Aged 16, his grandparents rented him a flat in Greys, Essex and left him to it. And that is where he had been living ever since. The online persona that Louis Danes had created had been shaped specifically to appeal to a certain kind of person. In this case, young techie boys with an interest in video games. And this is an absolutely classic groomer move. And groomers, as we've often said before on this show, are some of the best profilers around. They know exactly who they need to become in order to seduce their victims. And they also know which of the potential sort of group of people in front

of them might be the most susceptible to being groomed successfully. Absolutely. So as a rule of thumb, according to Dr. Ian Elliott in an interview with Operation 250, groomers don't happen across their victims by accident. They position themselves in the path of their victims. And a fun little river monsters analogy for you. It's a bit like those eels that will wait in the rocks for fish to swim past, so they don't have to exert all the effort swimming around trying to catch them. You put yourself in a good little hidey hole and you wait for them to come to you. In Louis Danes' case, this was done by creating a TeamSpeak server used by over 400 young boys with an interest in gaming.

Danes knew that his targets would find the idea of an older, more experienced boy who was a travelling tech genius very appealing, and that they'd be too naive to see through it. And once Danes identified Breck as vulnerable to his manipulation, he doubled down on his backstory, creating an even more elaborate lie that was created specifically to lure Breck in, and he also turns him against all of his other friends. Absolutely, absolutely. I mean, the isolation tactics we'll go on to talk about, but it is all classic groomer behaviour. And I mean, all of this feels very like you can wrap your head around it, you can see how this played out. But we actually spoke to producer Seb because he is, I think he's probably maybe the same age that Breck would have been. I think that's right. I don't know. I should have checked. But basically, coincidentally, Seb was a PC gamer who went home every night to chat with his friends on TeamSpeak in 2013. And he told us that at the time, it wasn't unusual to meet people through gaming who lived abroad.

It was also not uncommon to play with people who were a bit or maybe even a lot older than you and it was very common that those older people would be the ones running the servers that you chatted through. He also said that within the PC gaming community it was also very common to come across people who had or at least said they had very cool very well connected jobs. Everyone knew someone who worked for a game company and could get you free game codes, for example, or maybe who worked for a computer engineering firm and would be able to rent cheap servers. It might seem unbelievable that Louis Danes was an 18-year-old computer engineer living in New York working for the US government, and that's because it is, but it's not far enough from possible that a 14-year- old Seb apparently wouldn't have also fallen for it and I think that's the thing isn't it isn't it also just so insidious there because obviously

I never did this and it's interesting because Seb was in TeamSpeak servers in 2013 this idea that the people running the servers are also in there communicating so just like we saw with Lewis Daines if he ever sees anything happening that he doesn't like, he can also control that situation and manipulate it. It's like, I don't know, like some sort of early role play game where he can pretend to be whoever he wants, create this community, accept everyone's real and then fuck with their lives in there. Because he has like omnipotent power and like eyes on everything. It's really terrifying. I don't like it and this is the thing like you and i as people who are you know five six years older than the people that would have

been doing this as in like seb and breck and whatever didn't know any of this don't know any of this imagine the lack of knowledge that just normal parents oh my god i think and that's what i keep thinking about with loren and barry like they're doing so well considering this is kind of like undiscovered ground for them he's the oldest child also they're living in a country where they're not from and all of this internet stuff's going on absolutely and i think they have no idea what they're up against in lewis danes but the other thing i also think is that being an older child, as I am, as you are, Breck is so intelligent and he's so capable that I think the reason it even went on as long as it did is because they would have been like, he's so smart. Our son is so smart. Our son is so capable. We've raised him properly. Nothing dangerous is going to happen on the internet. He'll know how to make good, safe decisions. And I'm not, this is not me victim blaming Breck. he's a 13 year old child who was manipulated by somebody older than him what i mean is like there would have been that that thinking that breck knows better than we do in this space for a while before they start to see the danger starting to erupt he was hip-hop's biggest mogul the man who redefined fame, fortune, and the music industry. The first male rapper to be honored on the Hollywood Walk of Fame, Sean Diddy Cone.

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From his meteoric rise to his shocking fall from grace, from law and crime, this is The Rise and Fall of Diddy. Listen to The Rise and Fall of Diddy exclusively with Wondery+. They say Hollywood is where dreams are made, a seductive city where many flock to get rich, be adored, and capture America's heart. But when the spotlight turns off, fame, fortune, and lives can disappear in an instant. When TV producer Roy Radin was found dead in a canyon near L.A. in 1983, there were many questions surrounding his death. The last person seen with him was Lainey Jacobs,

a seductive cocaine dealer who desperately wanted to be part of the Hollywood elite. Together, they were trying to break into the movie industry. But things took a dark turn when a million dollars worth of cocaine and cash went missing. From Wondery comes a new season of the hit show Hollywood and Crime, The Cotton Club Murder. Follow Hollywood and Crime, The Cotton Club Murder on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge all episodes of The Cotton Club Murder early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus. The thing is, victims of grooming often feel like they have a special connection with their abuser and that connection is often used against them. I think a common misunderstanding that people have is that groomers only go after vulnerable kids from broken homes.

So kids who are already being abused or neglected. But with Breck, that's just not the case at all. And that's because anyone can be a potential victim of a person like Louis Danes. It's like we see with cult formation, if you're put through a set of circumstances, you do become more susceptible to stuff like this. Absolutely, and I think actually the cult formation is a really interesting point to make because, like you said, Breck absolutely was not your quote-unquote typical

sort of vulnerable to manipulation target. He comes from a home where he is incredibly well supported, incredibly well loved, a very affluent family. Like he's not wanting for anything, but that's not what left him open to the manipulation. And like with cults, we see that typically cult leaders don't tend to go after the dregs of society. They want to go after people who are capable.

They want to go after people who are high. They want to go after people who are high achievers. And that is what you see here with Louis Danes. And the reason Breck fell into Danes' net is clear from the secret recording we heard earlier, in which Breck told his parents that there was no one else he shared interests with. So I think when we sort of traditionally conjure up the image of a vulnerable child, you don't really think of someone like Brecht, who's from a very strong family unit. He just happened to have a passion and a drive for something, which was manipulated by Louis Danes.

Victims of grooming also often, like we said before, isolate themselves from their friends and their family through the encouragement of their abuser. Yet again, we see that this is clear in Brecht, who pushed his friends and his family through the encouragement of their abuser. Yet again, we see that this is clear in Breck, who pushed his friends and his family away. And according to the NSPCC, which is a charity here in the UK, children also producing sort of expensive equipment. I've read that, yeah. Yeah, like clothes, like mobile phones, etc.

That is like one of the number one indicators that that child is being groomed. Like people who listen to the podcast know that I used to produce child protection conferences in another life, and that was always one of the number one indicators that that child is being groomed. Like people who listen to the podcast know that I used to produce child protection conferences in another life and that was always one of the number one signs that they would say to look out for. If a child is suddenly presenting with very expensive items that is being bought for them by someone who is most likely exploiting or abusing them. So as you can see the signs that Breck was indeed being groomed really started adding up. And lastly, victims of grooming often feel that they are being trusted with some sort

of valuable information that they have to keep secret. Again, very akin to like cult formation. There is a secret here that you're going to learn, but only people in the within will know about it, not people outside. And Danes used this tactic from the beginning by hinting at his involvement with the US government. And he used this idea of sharing valuable information to lure Breck into a nightmarish situation. But we'll come back to that later. For now, let's stick with Breck.

By February 2014, Breck's parents, Lorin and Barry, were satisfied that they'd heard nothing of Louis Danes for over two months, so they figured that it would be okay for Breck to have his computer back. Shortly after this, Breck had his 14th birthday and went on a school trip to Spain. In Spain, Breck even managed to meet a girl, killing the 14-year-old game. Absolutely. Breck's friends and family were all over the moon that Breck had grown in confidence and seemed to have found a life away from the internet and crucially away from Louis Danes. On Sunday the 16th of February 2014, Breck's dad Barry picked Breck up from the airport and he was excited to welcome home a tall, confident, happy young man.

When Breck got back to his dad's house, he told him that he wanted to visit his friend Tom. Again, Breck's dad was so excited that Breck wanted to meet a friend in actual person, and that he hadn't just jumped straight back onto his computer, that he said that he would take him to Tom's house himself. But the new confident Breck told his dad not to worry that he could get to Tom's on his own. And that would be the last time that Barry Bednar would see his son alive. A few hours after leaving to see Tom, Breck sent his dad a text message to say that the pair had eaten some pizza and that he'd like to stay the night at Tom's house.

Breck also spoke about how he and Tom were creating a, quote, faster operating system for something. This understandably didn't mean much to Barry Bednar, but with the benefit of hindsight, it does ring a tiny little alarm bell in the back of our minds, does it not, dear listener? Even if you put aside the Louis Daines connection. Creating a faster operating system isn't something that two boys just do at a sleepover. It's something that companies like Microsoft or Apple would spend years doing. It was a fantastical lie.

A lie constructed by none other than Louis Danes. Also a lie I would have believed. I don't fucking know. Yeah, exactly. There's no shade on Barry. No, I would have been like, okay, have fun. Do you need a USB stick? Can I tempt you with an SD card? I can clear this one for you. Would you like me to save that as a PDF?

I saw this amazing tweet the other day. It's like, oh, I was sitting on a plane with my dad and someone was ill. And they're like, is anyone a doctor? And my dad nudged me and went, that should have been you. And I'm like, dad, like, not now. And he's like, oh, if only they needed a graphic designer. Why didn't you ask them to print a PDF? How would that help?

Then the next day, on the 17th of February, 2014, one of Breck's friends, quote unquote, Tom, so the same name as the person that Breck had told his dad he was going to go and see, this Tom logged onto his computer early in the morning. It was the first day of half term, and he wanted to pack in a good day of gaming. Soon after, the real Tom logged onto his computer early in the morning. It was the first day of half-term, and he wanted to pack in a good day of gaming. Soon after, the real Tom logged onto TeamSpeak. So did Louis Danes. And he told Tom that he had some bad news.

Danes told Tom that Breck had come over to his house the night before in a complete mess. That Breck had been suicidal, and that there had been an accident. Danes told Tom that Breck had been suicidal and that there had been an accident. Danes told Tom that Breck was dead. He also allegedly shared pictures of Breck's body on the server, although we can't find a solid source for that one. By this point, other members of Breck's online friendship group began to log on to TeamSpeak and read the awful news. And sadly, the first thing that Breck's family knew about Breck's death

was a member of the TeamSpeak server texting one of Brecht's younger siblings to ask if the rumour was true. And at around the same time, Lewis Danes called 999. Essex Police Emergency. Hi there. Um, OK. Uh, hello. Um, I need police and a forensics team to my address, please. What do you mean? What's happened? My friend and I got into an altercation and I'm the only one who came out alive.

Are you telling me you've killed somebody? Yes, I am. Right, and who am I speaking to? My name is Lewis Danes. I'm 18 years old and I live... Right, OK. And what's actually happened? My friend came to stay the night with me yesterday, feeling very down, feeling suicidal. And I woke up this morning, he was in a mess,

I tried to calm him down. I hugged him and said that I was there for him. What's his name? Breck. B-R-E-C-K Bednar. B-E-D-N-E-R. Sorry, B-R-E-C-K. Breck.

Yes. And then his surname is? Bednar. B-E-D-N-E-R. Okay, so he came to stay with you. I can explain this to the officers when they get here. I need to take these initial details. I know, I know.

He came to stay with me the night. I did my best to comfort him. I woke up this morning. He was in a mess. I tried again. Just slow down again, Lewis. I need to take these details. Did you have an argument with

him last night? No, we were fine. You were fighting? No, no, we were fine. We were fine last night. We both went to sleep. I said that we were fine. Okay, but why did he come to stay with you? Because he was fed up with his home life.

Right, because he was fed up with his home life. He's got, look, he's had a lot of problems. I've known him for a long time. He came to stay with me. I was in Thailand last week on holiday. He was in Spain on holiday. Right, okay, okay, okay. We got back.

So you both went to bed, and then what's happened this morning? I woke up. He was just standing up. He was in a mess. Hands on his face. I got up. I put my arms around him and I said it was okay. He just shrugged me off and said no. I can't remember exactly what he said. He was going on about how he didn't want to go home. He was fed up with his life. He didn't want to go. Right, okay.

He... I have a penknife on the side of... Sorry, in my room, adjacent to my bed, I have a chest of drawers. After shaving the TV and stuff on there, I had a penknife on there, folded. He picked it up, opened opened it and then lost control i slow down let me just let me just take those details here pen knife on the bedside table brett grabbed this what in order to harm himself no in order to harm me he opened it and i lost

control to harm and opened it um states he lost control i I, in self-defense, put my left arm up to block him from stabbing me effectively. We struggled. I got him to the ground. He got up. I got the knife. Okay. Can you not interrupt me with this part?

Okay, go on. Okay. This is being recorded anyway, isn't it? Yep. I grabbed the knife and I stabbed him once in the back of the neck, I believe somewhere near the brain stem. He turned around, tried to carry it on, and I think I stumbled on my chest of drawers. I fell over. I got back up, backed away, and then I don't remember exactly what happened, but the fight ended with me cutting his throat. I believe I turned around and I slashed his throat.

He fell face first on my bed I tried to stop the bleeding yep he fell onto the floor yep I couldn't stop him his throat was properly cut and he's still on the floor

yes he fell onto the bed face first His throat was properly cut. And he's still on the floor? Yes. He fell onto the bed face first. I was trying to compress the wound at that time. Lewis, are you still in the room where Breck is? No. Where are you? Look, this... Don't...

Okay, don't interrupt me. Just let me explain this if this is being recorded. I didn't know what to do. I felt like... Right, is the house where you are, is where you are and where Brick is, yeah? But you're in another room, are you? Yes, I felt like taking my own life.

I don't remember what happened after that. All I know is I dropped the knife in my hallway. I stripped down and just sat in the shower. Right, you've left the weapon in the hallway Yes. And have spent how long sitting in the shower? I don't know. Are the police on their way? I can hear something.

They are, they are. I'm going to go and do my part. Please, thank you for your help. Right, just listen. That is one of, and correct me if you disagree, Hannah, I feel like that is one of the weirdest and most, like, cringe-inducing, toe-curling 999 calls we've ever played on this show. Yeah, I was, like, my initial thought was, like,

I've never heard anything like this. Yeah, exactly. Because it's not like, because it's not like he's reading a shopping list. We've heard those before. He is trying to compose himself and he's taking deep breaths and he's like just trying to get through it. But in the most bizarre way, like it's just very, it just struck me as here is such a maladjusted person. Absolutely. I think the way in which he speaks about what is obviously a horrendous thing in that kind of flat, flatlining way is very, very, it's very jarring to hear. But the other thing that really stands out to me is the level of control he needs, even in this call. Because when the operator starts asking, he's like, please don't interrupt me let me just talk this is being recorded anyway but he does it in such a like weirdly like assertive way for someone who was so young but like that level of control he needs in this like even when he's saying things i can't

help but feel like you know he's trying to be like portray himself as this heroic person in some way he's like he came here he was a mess i hugged him i was trying to make him feel better but then when he talks about the killing it's like he doesn't shy away from the graph he's like i turn around i slashed his throat like it doesn't make sense like those two things don't connect that's why i think you're completely right to say how maladjusted because the whole call is such like a call of clashes and contrasts the things he is saying with the tone in which he's saying it how controlling he's being but how almost weirdly polite he also is and yeah in how he controls the situation i also think he sounds and comes across much older than someone who is 17 18 yeah i would say early 20s so yeah it's an interesting call and i think think that I don't hear a lot of remorse.

No, no, I don't. It's very matter of fact. It's very matter of fact. It's matter of fact. And it's also like, even any sort of fear you hear in his voice. It's not like, oh my god, what have I done? It's oh my god, I'm gonna get arrested. Yeah, I mean, I didn't even I didn't even register fear. I registered registered like almost him not feeling real in a weird way. Almost like it was part of a game that he was playing. And again, the maladjustment. So at the end of that call, we hear Lewis getting off the phone

because he can hear the police are outside and Essex police were indeed outside. They arrived at the home of Lewis Danes and they found Breck's body lying in the hallway. He was dead and had a deep incision to the back of his neck. And it became clear very quickly, as the police began to uncover evidence, that Breck's death was nothing to do with an act of self-defence. Rather, it was a cold-blooded, premeditated murder.

Police found duct tape in the bin that had been used to bind someone's arms or legs, and even more suspiciously, they found Breck's phone underwater in the sink, along with several hard drives and other bits of Breck's tech belongings. Clearly, Danes was trying to erase any history of their conversations, but surely a tech genius would know that they're never really gone. That didn't stop him, he'd even destroyed the data on Breck's blood-soaked laptop. But he had missed something. In the bottom of Breck's overnight bag, police found his iPad. And through that, they pieced together a timeline

of how then-18-year-old Louis Danes had lured 14-year-old Breck Bednar into his deadly trap. As we already know, the pair had never stopped contacting each other, even when Breck's parents had taken away his gaming equipment, because obviously Daines had sent him that phone. But not only had Daines sent him the secret phone, he'd also sent him an absolute tirade of manipulative emails saying that Breck's mother was isolating Breck from his friends

and telling Breck that he didn isolating Breck from his friends and telling Breck that he didn't feel he valued their friendship. Oh my god. Yep. And again, you can see here, it feels like it's part of that control. How dare this bitch get in the way of what I'm doing? And I almost feel like that spurred him on more. We'll talk about his feelings towards Lauren later, but I feel like a lot of it is to be like'll talk about his feelings towards Lauren later but I feel like a lot of it is to be like you think you can do this look what I can do. So sadly Breck's parents attempts to take Louis Danes out of Breck's life had actually played into a key method used by this abuser to groom his victim because he's obviously telling him they're against us and

here's this secret you know using it as a wedge to drive them further and further apart. And obviously keeping secrets, especially keeping relationships secret, allow the abuser to further isolate their victim. In the case of Louis Danes, it allowed him to thread his most fantastical lie so far, safe in the knowledge that it would never be heard by anyone who would pull it apart. And this is the danger, isn't it? Because obviously they weren't having access to all the conversations before, but at least they could overhear things and see things that were going on.

Now it's driven it completely underground. And now they have no idea what's happening. Kids love secrets. They do love secrets. They love to feel like they're getting won over. Absolutely. And the lie that Louis Daines had told Breck was that he had a life-changing

illness and that he needed Breck to take over his multi-million dollar computer business. Oh no. Yeah. Had this been said in front of the other boys in the TeamSpeak server, or had Breck not been hiding their relationship, this lie would have been pulled apart in seconds by any outside influence. We, in our rational grown-up minds, see that this million-dollar business and sudden illness is obvious bullshit, classic catfish material. But groomers like Louis Danes create an environment where obvious red flags will be ignored by their victims. Danes had carefully created a dream job which he dangled in front of Breck for nine months. And then, once he had successfully isolated Breck from people with his best interests in mind, he offered Breck that dream job. All Breck had to do was come over to Louis

Danes' house and sort out the paperwork. After going through Breck's iPad and Louis Danes' internet history, it became clear to the police that their first and final meeting had been planned over the course of weeks. It was not the result of Breck having a sudden suicidal breakdown and needing a place to feel safe. Danes had ordered duct tape, condoms and syringes three weeks before Breck's murder,

and Breck had pre-booked a taxi to Louis Danes' flat a week before he went to Spain. Emails found between Danes and Breck sent on the 12th of February, five days before Breck's murder, also showed how Danes had pre-planned the story that Breck would feed his parents on the day that he traveled to Danes' house. He even specifically told Breck to tell his dad, quote, I've spent too many holidays and half terms inside. I'm going to spend this one outside with my friends. Again, it's like he knows what Breck's parents are going to respond to that. He's like, look, I'm so normal. He would have been like, act really happy, act really normal.

Soon you'll have this entire multi-million dollar business that I've just given you and then no one will care that you lied to them. On top of this, the police found that Louis Danes had been sharing links with people on the TeamSpeak server and these included some of the most graphic ISIS beheading videos that the police had ever seen. A question. A rumination. If Louis Danes has premeditated this, right, he's planned this, he's this. So let's talk about it. Like, why does he kill Breck? I mean, I think there's obviously a sexual element to it.

Many of the details haven't been released about that, but we know he brought condoms. We know that he also had a previous charge for sexual offences when he was 15. There is a definite sexual element. Probably why the particular rock this eel was hiding behind was a TeamSpeak server filled with young boys. I also wonder if there is an element there of him wanting to destroy someone who maybe he perceived to have everything that he didn't have. So Breck had loving parents, a mother who is like, I hate this term, but she is like the mother bear. She, like, Lorin does everything for her son. And since Breck's death

as well she has become an advocate for internet safety she spends all of her time campaigning around these kind of things like she is what you would want any mother to be and as with barry his father he comes from a well-to-do family like he's clearly loved he's got friends he's got all of this and it's like danes conducts a systematic approach to destroy all of those things in Breck's life. So I think those are the motives for why he goes after Breck and why he targets him specifically. As to why he hands himself in, I think there is an element of control. I think that we see it in the way that he conducts himself in the 999 call. We'll see it in things that he does after his trial and after his conviction. Spoilers. There is a huge element of him wanting to control his

own narrative, but also if you are giving him the least favorable opinion, which I'm going to do because fuck that guy, is that he also wants to cause maximum amount of distress to the other people. Very Paris Bennett. It is very Paris Bennett. And I particularly think, similarly to Paris Bennett, not with his own mother, but I think Louis Daines fucking hates Lauren. I think she represents

everything that he never had. And I think he hates her for it. And I think that a lot of the stuff he does, I think is specifically aimed to hurt her as much as possible. And I think that the control side of things

and why he hands himself in, I think he knows, I'm going to get caught. I'm going to get caught. I killed a 14-year-old in my house. I think his plan was always to get caught or not ever to get away with it. And I think he was like, I will hand myself in on my terms. Don't interrupt me when I'm telling you.

Rather than, where's he going to go on the run anyway? Just because he told people he has all these resources. He has nothing. He has a flat that's rented for him by his grandparents. And I think he goes on the run. He knows he's going to go on the run anyway? Just because he told people he has all these resources. He has nothing. He has a flat that's rented for him by his grandparents. And I think he goes on the run, he knows he's going to get caught. So rather go out on my own terms. That's true. I haven't thought of it like that. On his own terms or not, he was charged.

And his trial began in January 2015. The court heard how Danes had worked away at Breck for over nine months before he had succeeded. was charged, and his trial began in January 2015. The court heard how Danes had worked away at Breck for over nine months before he had succeeded in getting Breck to come to his flat. Richard Whittam QC told the court that there was evidence of sexual activity between the pair shortly before Breck's murder. Lewis Danes wasted no time. He pleaded guilty to murder. And when it came to his sentencing, Justice Cox told Danes, you had befriended Breck

and a number of other adolescent friends through an online community. And I'm sure that this murder was driven by sadistic or sexual motivation. Danes, who was by then just 19 years old, was sentenced to life imprisonment for Breck Bednar's murder. And that's a minimum of 25 years.

Wow. I mean, I know that's like basically what we have on the menu of prison sentences in this country. He'll be out when he's 45. I was just trying to do that maths. Yeah. You beat me to it, as usual. Well, 44, but yeah. Yeah.

Fuck. Jesus. Yeah. And, you know, that should be the end of this tragic story. But unfortunately, Louis Danes had one last wanky and manipulative trick up his sleeve. On the 26th of November 2015, Louis Danes released an open letter in the form of an online blog. No. I know.

No. Yes. Never an open letter. Listeners, if you are in any way considering at any stage in your being on this earth. Is this an open letter? To Ken, an open letter. Here is my open letter to you. My anti-open letter, open letter.

Just don't fucking do it. Nothing good ever happens. Please don't. Ever. Look at poor Sinead O'Connor when she wrote that open letter to Miley Cyrus and then Miley Cyrus was really horrible to her. That's how it happened? Yeah. Yeah. Sinead O'Connor, she wrote that open letter to Miley Cyrus and then Miley Cyrus was really horrible to her that's how it happened yeah yeah Shanae O'Connor

mid one of her many breakdowns wrote an open letter to Miley Cyrus during the wrecking ball era where she'd just come out as this I'm an adult and you can think about my vagina

like anyway Shanae O'Connor wrote an open letter to her being like Miley like these people don't care about you like they're just making money off you

like blah blah blah blah blah and then M open letter to her being like, Miley, like, these people don't care about you. Like, they're just making money off you. Like, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then Miley Cyrus wrote back being like, you're crazy. No one cares what you think, crazy old lady. Oh, God. Yeah, it was a whole thing. Poor Shanae O'Connor. Yeah.

Oh, God. Well, don't write one of those. And don't write any sort. Just never an open letter. There are many other avenues you can take. Yes. And definitely don't write one like this. Because Louis Danes started this open letter by saying, quote, The purpose of this statement is not intended to cause further distress to the family and friends of Breck.

I am responsible for the death of Breck, a boy of just 14. Despite only being a young adult, and just four months into legal adulthood myself, nothing will change the fact that while he was with me, I had a duty of care towards him and I failed. I think that's putting it quite mildly. He's so grandiose as well, though. Like, firstly, the over-formalized language, even in this and also in the 999 call. It is so overly formed. But again, it shows like he's articulate, but it shows particularly poor social skills, the way in which he's communicating and speaking but it's the grandiosity of it it's this like a boy of just

14 while i was a young adult although i was only four months into adulthood and then it's like i owed him a duty of care and i failed like duty of care that's like again he's power playing the power dynamic here like you say duty of care when it to things like a solicitor or a doctor or a parent or a teacher. He didn't owe him a duty of care. You just, you owed him not to kill him. You owed him not to stab him in the fucking neck, you piece of shit. The grandiosity here, I mean, you know, that fits into so many personality disorders. We're not going to sit here and diagnose Louis Danes with something.

But I think it's clear to see that he's showing some very typical traits. And he hasn't become any less manipulative in prison. He's trying to become the person he thinks will make his life easier. He thinks that by talking about his duty of care and taking responsibility for Brecht's death that he'll make himself more likeable. But that doesn't work because we know who he really is and how he operates.

We're already behind his smoke screen. And this open letter doesn't help for many reasons. I'm going to give you a few now by telling you what else he said. Here we go. As many of the people involved in this case will know, I initially informed mutual friends of his death. What happened was out of character for both of us, and tragically, he lost his life. I hope that those close to him can draw some comfort from

the fact that his death ensued seconds after he suffered the injury, a claim echoed by the prosecution pathologist. Because of the nature of the injury and its seriousness, resuscitation attempts made by myself were futile. Oh, well, that's all right then. I feel much better now. Thanks. And I think, you know, there are realistically only really two possibilities when you're analysing that particular statement. Either Louis Danes is so devoid of any empathy or any understanding of emotions that he truly believes that someone who knew and loved Breck Bednar

could draw some comfort from knowing that he had been murdered quickly. Or Louis Danes knows that nobody will take any comfort from that and he's just doing it to cause distress. I would lean towards the latter. I'm sort of leaning that way also. Yeah and I think this is given what we know of Louis Danes. You know I said we're not going to diagnose him but I think he clearly shows narcissistic tendencies the grandiosity all of that kind of stuff and he also fits many sort of psychopathic traits that we've discussed over the years over here at red handed and i think he's also clearly very good at understanding human emotions because somebody who is a groomer i know we're saying that he lacks sort of social communication skills but that's why he does

his grooming over the internet. You know, first and only time he meets Breck in person, he kills him. So I think he understands human emotions and that's how he lured Breck in. You have to understand human emotions to be a good groomer and to be a good abuser. I'm just pretty sure that he knew exactly what he was doing. And I'm pretty sure, I'm going to keep coming back to this, that I know who this blog post was aimed at. It was aimed at Lauren, Breck's mom. Yeah. I think he fucking hated her. I think you're absolutely right. And he gets another dig in at Lauren because in this open letter, Lewis Danes goes on to dedicate

several paragraphs to saying that Breck Bednar was being abused at home. He suggests that it was this abuse that led Breck to spend all his time in Dane's virtual safe haven. Sounds like a bit of projection there to me. Of course Louis Dane knows that Breck lived with his mum. He knows that she was the only adult in the house. So when he goes on to say, quote, I don't intend to name Breck's abuser who forced him to take comfort in the internet virtual world. I don't need to. They know who they are, as well as the police from the abuse files reported and those close to breck from the outline and details described above so he knows that everyone is going to assume that that is lauren because that's who he lived with yeah and

we know that lauren wasn't abusing breck so this shows you that this isn't about just a sort of lack of emotional connectivity on Louis Daines' part. He knows exactly what he's doing. And he knows that it will break Lauren's heart. Absolutely. And as if that wasn't enough, Louis Daines published a second blog in January 2016, disputing the narrative shown in the BBC documentary Murder Games, the life and death of Breck Bednar. Murder Games, the documentary is one we watched for this.

It is available, I think it's on YouTube, so even international listeners, you can watch it very, very easily. And it is probably the most informative documentary on this particular case. And he really took issue with this show. And in the second block, he says, the BBC are broadcasting a drama on tuesday the 26th of january called murder games i don't know why he calls it a drama because it's definitely a documentary but maybe it's because he's saying it's all made up right so he's like this drama

production they've put on okay okay okay it's a factual documentary he claims this is a quote from his second blog post it's basically a crusade against the online gaming community, myself and the family's attempts to highlight police incompetence and sue two police forces. He really is very cynical, isn't he? Yeah, I don't know. I'm not sure how he got access to watch this documentary, but he clearly has. They're allowed to be in prison. Oh, are they? There you go. But secondly, it's not a crusade against the online gaming community. I mean, it's not any of the things that he said it is, but it's definitely not that.

It actually makes online gaming look really fun. What it makes look less fun is being groomed and murdered. Yeah, which doesn't have to be mutually exclusive. Danes then goes on in the second blog post open letter situation to attack the validity of Brecht's parents' relationship. And he tries to pull apart some of Lorin's statements to the press. He says, Brecht's mother has said on record, the first year after Brecht's death was spent in bed, unable to get out of it. This is simply untrue.

How the fuck would you know you're in prison? I know. It's like, and I've seen those interviews with Lorin. She talks about how fucking devastated she is by the murder of her firstborn son. And he's like, that's not true she's lying what the fuck this is what i'm saying like it's a personal crusade against her and he also goes on to say he won't go into what he and breck were creating computer wise because it was probably fucking frogger like i just don't buy this i just not not a second of it but anyone who reads the emails between them will know that he, Danes, was in Dubai and Thailand two weeks before his death. No, he wasn't. Because we've looked and there's no evidence to suggest that Danes was abroad during those times.

How would he have afforded to go to Dubai or Thailand or both? However, we have done a little bit of internet digging. And we found a website that allows you to see people's profile history on certain gaming platforms. And using that, we found that on February the 8th, 2014, Daines added the word abroad, smiley face with like the big D, to his gamer tag profile in an effort to solidify this nonsense. That's all it takes.

You just sent your MSN status. But isn't it interesting that he did that? Because he knew this is what he was going to say later. Yes, right. Yeah, good point. Again, the premeditation of this, the preplanning of this. I think, again, similarly to other killers we've seen, I think part of the kick for Louis Danes was the fantasy of the plot,

the build-up to it. I think he killed Breck and then it was like, oh, it's done now. I've done what I wanted to do. So what can we conclude about Louis Danes? Was he a narcissist? Well, his deep need for attention and approval from others would suggest so.

Like the idea that he says that he had informed mutual friends about Breck's death. Those boys hated him. Yes, true, very true. And also the fantastical thinking and the lack of empathy, you know, all of these are indicative of not great traits. Was he Machiavellian? I mean, we can see this when there was so much manipulative callousness involved,

so much indifference, so much immorality, and so much pre-planning and pre-meditation. So it certainly looks like it. I think Louis Danes is an adolescent showing the dark triad. I absolutely agree. Yeah. And if you don't know what the dark triad is, we've talked about it on the show before.

It is a combination of narcissism, psychopathy, and Machiavellianism. Those things on their own might make for an unpleasant person in some regards, but those three things together makes for a dangerous person makes jimmy saville yep and possibly also lewis danes so i don't know was lewis danes a psychopath well at 18 he murdered a 14 year old boy with seemingly no reason and it all fits with us having a dark triad character on our hands and on that note we should leave this where it is because i know we've just spent like an hour plus talking about him but that's exactly what he would want so don't go and

read his blog posts no we've read them for you so you don't have to do it and we've picked out the most interesting parts of it uh damage control yeah don't read his blog post that's what he wants don't watch the documentary though it is pretty is pretty well made. And yeah, that is the fucking tragic and terrifying case. Stay off the internet, kids. Apart from listening to podcasts on it. That's the only thing you're allowed to do. Because we aren't trying to groom you much. But yeah, it's scary, scary shit.

God, sometimes I do think like, obviously, what we're in 2022 now. If I ever had children in like five years time, by the time in 20 years time, they're on the internet. I won't have a fucking clue what's going on. I think about that when I think about my grandma. My grandma was born in 1926. She has an iPad now. Like the world has completely changed 17 times over since she was born. And she's seen it all.

Yeah. Yeah, it's mad. So there you go if you would like to hear us talk about cults and just bad ends wrong ends difficult ones you can come over to our spotify exclusive show from park us which is called sinister societies that comes out every week and it's only on spotify so make sure you get over there if that's not enough you can go to patreon.com forward slash red handed to get even more red handed goodness and lots of videos and stuff and buy tickets to the live show and we'll see you next week bye goodbye I'm Jake Warren, and in our first season of Finding,

I set out on a very personal quest to find the woman who saved my mum's life. You can listen to Finding Natasha right now exclusively on Wondery+. In season two, I found myself caught up in a new journey to help someone I've never even met. But a couple of years ago, I came across a social media post by a person named Loti. It read in part, Three years ago today that I attempted to jump off this bridge, but this wasn't my time to go. A gentleman named Andy saved my life. I still haven't found him.

This is a story that I came across purely by chance, but it instantly moved me and it's taken me to a place where I've had to consider some deeper issues around mental health. This is season two of Finding, and this time, if all goes to plan, we'll be finding Andy. You can listen to Finding Andy and Finding Natasha exclusively and ad-free on Wondery Plus. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify. Harvard is the oldest and richest university in America. But when a social media-fueled fight over Harvard and its new president broke out last fall,

that was no protection. Claudine Gay is now gone. We've exposed the DEI regime, and there's much more to come. This is The Harvard Plan, a special series from the Boston Globe and WNYC's On the Media. To listen, subscribe to On the Media wherever you get your podcasts.