RedHanded - Episode 252 - The Murder of Sophie Lionnet: Boyzone, Babies & Broken Bones

Episode Date: June 30, 2022

Boyzone obsessions and black magic paedophile rings consumed the mind of Sabrina Koudier. And her neighbours turned a blind eye to the strange woman's violent outbursts and vile treatment of her au pair. It wasn't their place to get involved. But even the well-to-do residents of Southfields couldn't ignore a billowing plume of black smoke and the unmistakable smell of burning hair and flesh. Click here to vote for RedHanded in the British Podcast Awards Listeners' Choice Award! >>>The “If RedHanded Wins the BPA Listeners' Choice Gold Award" Form<<< Become a patron: Patreon Order a copy of the book here (US & Canada): Order on Wellesley Books Order on Amazon.com Order a copy of the book here (UK, Ireland, Europe, NZ, Aus): Order on Amazon.co.uk Order on Foyles Follow us on social media: Instagram Twitter Visit our website: Website Contact us: Contact Update Description Sources:  https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x7sov40 https://classicmovie.net/watch/Tortured-to-Death-Murdering-the-Nanny-61f101f6e9c8b.html https://www.amazon.co.uk/Stranger-Than-Fiction-Nanny-Killers/dp/B07KRLFYT2?returnFromLogin=1&ref_=nav_signin&updateStatus=succeed&executionStatus=SUCCESS&reason=noCustomerAction&sourceType=AuthenticationSource&sourceId=amzn1.asrc.albatross.YW16bjEucHBsYW4uQVEuSVEuQUFBQmdNMWE1UEUuY1NGaDBCSjVsT2NYWjAyUm5hYjJNUV8x&preSelectedPaymentMethodId=amzn1.pm.wallet.MGhfUEVfQ1VTXzRhYTczZmU5LTIxNjEtNDcyMS05MGM2LThmYTBiY2QyNDRmNg.QTNDQklVTVA5NFBWT1E https://nypost.com/2018/06/26/killer-writes-bizarre-apology-to-nanny-she-murdered/ https://www.verywellmind.com/what-is-the-halo-effect-2795906 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3252781/ https://www.newsweek.com/couple-london-jailed-murdering-nanny-psychosis-boyzone-996097See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to Red Handed early and ad-free. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. They say Hollywood is where dreams are made. A seductive city where many flock to get rich, be adored, and capture America's heart. But when the spotlight turns off, fame, fortune, and lives can disappear in an instant. Follow Hollywood and Crime, The Cotton Club Murder on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Sruti.

I'm Hannah. And welcome to Red Handed. Right, I'm going to hit you with it immediately. No, even no warm-up foreplay for you guys. Just hitting you hard in the face with my dick made of BPA voting. We're not lubing you up here, guys. Just straight in. No, so if you listened to last week, you know what we're going to say already.

It is, of course, British Podcast Awards season. And we are definitely this year not going to be nominated because we didn't even bother entering because what's the point but what we would love to do is recreate and relive some of the glory of last year where if you are a long time red-handed listener you will know red-handed got the gold award at the listener choice at the british podcast awards in 2021 but i had covid and had to stay home crying in a dressing gown. So please, please, please, if you could take two seconds.

It really is that simple. It really is that quick. You just need to go to britishpodcastawards.com slash vote and vote for Red Handed. And then I believe you do have to verify the vote when they send you the verification email to your email address. So please use your real email address. And then what is going to happen is if we win gold like we won last year, we will do a bonus episode of Red Handed of your choice this summer. And to vote for that, you just need to follow the link that is also in the episode descriptions.

It's just like a Google Forms. Vote for type in whatever you want the episode that you want us to cover. But we're only going to do it if we get gold. And then scroll down, scrolly scroll down. And there you can input a suggestion of your heart's desire. Something maybe lovely. That would be nice of you. Or something horrible that you want me and Hannah to do if we win gold.

So last year, Hannah got a listener's name tattooed on her body. And a tiny hand. And a tiny hand. If you want us to do something else, put it in there and people can vote for it. And then we'll do it if we win. We are men of our word. So please, please, please vote. It honestly opened so many doors for us.

We had so many incredible things happen this year because people sat up and took notice of us. Because we are like I know podcasts were always like a grassroots indie thing but now it is not that way in the industry and I think for a show like ours to get that kind of award it just made a lot of people pay a lot of attention so thank you so much so that's it that's it let's move on let's move on let's move on to a horrible horrible story shall we because in a case that's it. That's it. Let's move on. Let's move on. Let's move on to a horrible, horrible story, shall we? Because in a case that's stranger than one, I would say stranger than one we've seen in quite a while,

today we're delving into a brutal torture murder that was born out of pure and total fantasy. It's a story that features the founding member of Boyzone, allegations of a black magic paedophile ring, and a dangerously delusional individual. And how, in a well-to-do suburb of southwestzone, allegations of a black magic paedophile ring and a dangerously delusional individual. And how, in a well-to-do suburb of South West London, a 21-year-old woman was tortured to death over the course of six weeks. On the 20th of September 2017, residents of the usually quiet London suburb of Southfields noticed something odd. Plumes of a foul-smelling smoke were billowing out of the garden of number. 164, Poulborough Road.

It was a warm afternoon. Maybe someone was just doing a terrible job of having a barbecue. But on closer inspection, neighbours were shocked to see an enormous bonfire raging away. It was especially worrying, given how close the flames were getting to the surrounding garden fences and to the back of the row of houses. So one of the neighbours called 999 and soon the street was swarming with police and firefighters.

Nobody understood what was going on. Why were there two fire engines and six police cars lining the road just for one out-of-control garden bonfire? And this confusion only intensified when the road just for one out-of-control garden bonfire. And this confusion only intensified when the road was soon completely cordoned off and a white tent was erected over the tiny London garden. Locals watched on as white forensic-suited officials started filing into the unassuming house. And they could hardly believe their eyes when they spotted Wissam Maduni, the man who lived in the rented ground floor flat, being escorted out in handcuffs. What the hell was going on? At first, everyone

thought that something must have happened to his partner, Sabrina Cudier, or perhaps her two young children who lived with the couple too. But within hours, Sabrina had returned to the house with her kids and was also, to everyone's shock, swiftly arrested. 36 hours later, both Wissam and Sabrina were charged with murder. Officials didn't know yet who they had killed. All they had was a body. When firefighters had arrived at the house to deal with the fire, Wissam had opened the door and just told them that he was having a barbecue, which had just got a bit smoky. Come on.

The neighbours couldn't see into the garden, and the neighbour who lived next door, who was the one who called 999, he was like, the fire was almost at our patio doors. And Weesam's just like, yeah, we're just having a barbecue. Just opens the door with a little chef's hat on and a spatula. And one of those like naked lady aprons kiss the cook yeah a garden fire is much more believable yeah sorry we're accidentally having a fire but everything's under control but he's like no no we're just having a barbecue yeah

yeah yeah so obviously we sam's story didn't really stack up to the firefighters and they insisted on having a look anyway and sure enough when they got into the garden they did see a tiny little barbecue and when I mean a tiny little barbecue I mean a tiny little disposable barbecue with a few chicken thighs on it that were just like cooking away. I have quite a lot of experience with those particular tinfoil barbecues. It is very hard for those to get out of control. Like impossible. Yeah. Yes.

Knocking on the impossible realm, I would say. The only way it would get out of control is if you lit one of them and then threw it onto a pile of fireworks. And then you were like, oh my God, my barbecue's out of control. Oh no, my petrol reserves. So yeah, they get into the back, tiny little disposable barbecue with a few chicken thighs on it. And next to that is a fucking inferno that was engulfing this garden. Because they live in London. They live in the garden flat of this. It's like a Victorian terrace and they live in the garden flat.

So anybody who doesn't live in England, in London specifically, it's like a Victorian house. And they just live in the downstairs portion and have the garden. So it is not a big garden. It is not a giant flat and everything is just filled with smoke. And Weesam's just like, it's fine. Chicken? The firefighters who were attending the scene that day knew that the foul smell, which is what had initially alerted the neighbourhood that there was a problem,

definitely wasn't chicken. It had a very distinctive smell about it. And when they asked Wiesam what the odour was, he claimed, now, that the chicken thighs on the disposable barbecue, well, that was just a fucking appetiser. Because according to him, he was roasting an entire lamb in the bonfire. That's brave. Lambs are quite large.

Apparently, he was like, it's just the smell of the wool, So he's got a... So he hasn't even skinned it. So he's just got a whole lamb inside the bonfire is what he tells the firefighters. I don't think I've ever seen a whole lamb in like a culinary sense. I have seen a whole goat. Oh. There's a big Uzbekistani diaspora in Korea. Oh, interesting. Yeah, because of the factories and the ports. So there are quite a few Uzbek restaurants where you can, should your heart desire it, order a whole goat. Do you have to do it 24 hours in advance? I don't even think you do. Just turn up. They've just got loads of goats. I'll have the whole goat. One whole goat please and no beers. I'll just have a not even a diet coke because I don't have that in Korea. I'll have a water and a whole coat. So yeah, this is what he

tells the firefighters. And the firefighters, they weren't having any of it. They were obviously not convinced by his story. So they put the fire out, all the while ignoring Wissam Maduni's pleas for them not to. And as the firefighters stamped out the final cinders with their big firefighter boots, they realised that they were staring at several dismembered fingers and a very human looking nose. Out of all of the things to discover, so they got fucking Nilsson on the finger bones, fingers and noses are quite distinctly human. So that's the new rule that we can all live by. It's fingers, noses and tax evasion. Yes, yes. They are the things that will land you in prison.

Yeah, the trifecta. So the police obviously are called in immediately. They realise they've got a body on their hands, but it would take them a week to officially identify the destroyed remains. And when they did discover who it was, it was of course the only other person who lived in that house. 21-year-old Sophie Lyonnais. Sophie was from the town of Troyes in northeastern France. And although it's just a short drive from Paris, it does look like it's in another universe. It's very rural, very small, cobblestoned vibes. And Sophie grew up quite sheltered. She was also naturally an incredibly shy and introverted girl, so her family were delighted when, at the age of 21,

Sophie decided that she wanted to improve her English and move to London. Sophie loved working with children. She'd studied child development and had babysat for her neighbours in France for years, so becoming an au pair in the UK seemed like a dream job, the obvious choice. So when she met a guy who said that his sister, a French-Algerian woman in London, was looking for a French nanny, Sophie jumped at the chance. Sabrina Cudieu, the surprised French-Algerian woman, lived with her partner, Wissam Maduni, and her two children from different relationships. Sabrina and Sam, as Wissam called himself, seemed like a successful, glamorous couple. 36-year-old Sabrina worked as a self-styled fashion stylist

and 41-year-old Sam ran his own finance business. And given their hectic lives, they needed some help with the kids. And yeah, we, you know, might as well say this at the start. When you Google pictures of them, WeSam not so much, but Sabrina, definitely an attractive woman. Let's have a look. Yeah, take a look. Yeah, I can see it. She'd get it. Uh-huh. So when Sophie first joined Sabrina and Sam, things seemed great. Sabrina even spoke on the phone to Sophie's mum back in France, assuring her that as far as she was concerned, Sophie was like a little sister to her now and that she would take care of her. I'm Jake Warren and in our first season of Finding, I set out on a very personal quest

to find the woman who saved my mum's life. You can listen to Finding Natasha right now exclusively on Wondery Plus. In season two, I found myself caught up in a new journey to help someone I've never even met. But a couple of years ago, I came across a social media post by a person named Loti. It read in part, Three years ago today that I attempted to jump off this bridge, but this wasn't my time to go.

A gentleman named Andy saved my life. I still haven't found him. This is a story that I came across purely by chance, but it instantly moved me and it's taken me to a place where I've had to consider some deeper issues around mental health this is season two of finding and this time if all goes to plan we'll be finding andy you can listen to finding andy and finding natasha exclusively and ad free on wondery plus join wondery plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify. They say Hollywood is where dreams are made, a seductive city where many flock to get rich,

be adored, and capture America's heart. But when the spotlight turns off, fame, fortune, and lives can disappear in an instant. When TV producer Roy Radin was found dead in a canyon near L.A. in 1983, there were many questions surrounding his death. The last person seen with him was Lainey Jacobs, a seductive cocaine dealer who desperately wanted to be part of the Hollywood elite. Together, they were trying to break into the movie industry. But things took a dark turn when a million dollars worth of cocaine and cash went missing. From Wondery comes a new season of the hit show Hollywood and Crime, The Cotton Club Murder. Follow Hollywood and Crime, The Cotton Club Murder on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge all episodes of The Cotton Club Murder early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus. And after Sophie's arrival, the residents of Southfields noticed that they hardly ever saw Sabrina with the kids anymore.

And this is the thing about Southfields. Like, obviously it is in London. It's in Wimbledon. It's in, you know, Southwest London, which is like a nice part of the city. It has quite like village-y vibes. Yeah, Southwest is very like yummy mummy boarding school, Dulwich College, garden shows. It's very nice. And it's like, it's like a place where people want to feel like they're not living in the city, but they are still living in the city.

I always find that Americans are always quite enamored with West and Southwest London, because I think they imagine the Mary Poppins houses. Yeah. But when you actually live here, you're like, that is gash. Get me to Shoreditch. But I think there is that very idyllic ideal of south and south-west London, just west in general being affluent because obviously west used to be nice, which is because the air quality was better and east used to be the slums because all of the air was awful. So that's where the poor people lived.

Because we have a easternly wind. Something like that. That blows across the UK. Yeah. So all the pollution gets blown east, basically. Yeah. So if you want nice, clean air, but a very boring life and only be at once, then go and live in West London.

Well, there you go. You've heard the review of West London here from Hannah. But yeah, Southfields very much feels like kind of almost like the town I grew up in. Even though it's in London, it feels very like everybody knows each other. Everybody's constantly talking about each other. They all sort of see each other all the time. They go to the same shops. There is like a definite feeling of community in Southfields. So that's kind of important to note that although this story goes down in London, it's not happening in an anonymous street. People know each other.

So yeah, when Sophie came over and joined the family, people started to notice that they didn't really see Sabrina as much. And, you know, I guess that makes sense. You're hiring an au pair so that she can au pair your kids around. And it always seemed to people as well that Sophie was the one taking the kids to school, she was the one bringing bringing them home and she was also even the one starting to do all of the grocery shopping for the family. Again I don't think any of that's particularly abnormal if you've got an au pair but it was this is the thing this is how much people were in each other's pockets in Southfields that they noticed this. And some of them apparently were even a little bit taken aback when they first met Sophie possibly because of just how young

she looked. And I think this is very important about Sophie Lyonnais. She is 21 when she comes to London for the first time, and that's already very young, but she looks especially young. I would say that she could have honestly passed for 15 years old. And she also dresses quite young. And actually, the local corner shop owner said that he felt like he wanted to ID her every time she came in to buy cigarettes. But soon, the locals began noticing something even more concerning than the fact that Sabrina just didn't really seem to be around that much. Sophie was looking thinner and more dishevelled with every week that passed. She was always wearing the same exact clothes. Could it be that the job of looking after two young children was just a bit too much for her?

But if that was the case, why wasn't Sabrina stepping in? Not that any of the neighbours would take any of this up with Sabrina. She was outwardly very fun and glamorous. One look at her social media showed a woman living the life, but her neighbours knew that there was an unpredictable and volatile side to her. Sunny Patel, the man who ran the local corner shop, had once experienced Sabrina's wrath first hand when she was unable to pay for her groceries. But instead of apologising or running home to get her wallet, she started screaming at Sunny Patel. And then she, not Sunny Patel, the man she's trying to steal from,

Sabrina called the police. And when they arrived, they had to physically remove her from the shop. We'll look at more of these kind of outbursts, but there are a long list and almost every resident of Southfield sort of comes forward in the various documentaries there are about this case to delve into their negative experience with Sabrina Cudier. She was definitely a woman who had a lot of volatile outbursts, let's just say. And I do wonder if her appearance went a long way to explaining why some of those volatile outbursts were overlooked.

Because, again, everybody had them, like the chip shop owner the pub guy the corner shop person the neighbors like she was well known for being that way but it's surprising that nothing and I mean like what are you going to do call the police because your neighbor's a bit crazy but like I kind of feel like people excused it and people still said lots of positive things about her and everybody in the documentary oh my god she was so beautiful blah blah blah and I feel like is it because she was? And that kind of dulled her sometimes crazy irrational behavior. And I did look into this, and this isn't a totally alien concept, it won't be to many of you

listeners. But in psychology, there is a theory to explain this idea that's known as the halo effect. And it often comes up when people are talking about Ted Bundy. But let's talk about it with somebody else here. Because apparently, there are several different studies that have found that when we rate people as good-looking we also tend to believe that they have other positive personality traits and interestingly that they're also more intelligent purely because we think that they're good-looking and one study and I thought this was very interesting even found that jurors were less likely to believe that attractive people were guilty of criminal behavior and would struggle to find them guilty or give them lesser sentences, which I thought was interesting. Having served on a jury, I 100% can see that happening. Oh, really?

Oh, my God. Yeah, there was, obviously, I can't give too much away. I'll have to go to prison. But there was definitely an element in the deliberation of like, oh, well, that guy's clearly a scumbag. Look at the way he stood or like, look at the way he dressed. So I can absolutely believe that. And like pretty privilege is absolutely a thing. There was when I used to work at the Actors Centre,

there was like this like get into acting weekend course. And it was often models that would come because they wanted to get better acting so they could do commercials because it's, you know, crazy money. So it would just be this parade of incredibly good looking men which was fine there was one in particular who was just beautiful and so so nice and I was talking to my friend who was also working there talking because we saw him every Saturday so we were obviously just topic of conversation and she was like the thing is really really good looking men are often

beautifully nice because the world has only ever smiled at them oh i thought it was really interesting and when we did that teacher jeremy forrest yes yeah yeah where obviously we know that there is a difference when like it's the male abuser in a case like that versus a female predator in a case grooming a younger man. I actually re-watched Notes on a Scandal the other day, which is a very good film, isn't it? It's also, I can't believe I'm going to say this, the first time I realised that not everyone who wipes their butt on the toilet does it from the front. Oh, you should always wipe from the front. Oh, as in like, oh, I see, right. How do you do it? Well, now I do it from the back. I do wipe from the front oh as in like oh i see right how do you do it well now i do

it from the back i do it from the back but i never had before until i saw it in notes on a scandal and i was like that makes a lot more sense than just like yeah no always putting my whole arm and then having to do it front to back as well well good i'm glad we got that clear that's my pervading memory of notes your key takeaway from realizing that i'd been wiping my butt wrong well you know what it's for you to take what you want to take away from that hannah what else don't i know is the worrying absolutely who knows the point i was going to make in that is that their studies also found that when the female perpetrator particularly in cases of like female sexual predators towards younger boys the more attractive the woman is the less prison time she got because jurors were implicitly thinking well

he probably kind of he kind of like good for him like good for that kid that got raped by that woman and it wasn't really that bad because she's not gross and disgusting and ugly and i'm like that's so fucked up my Latin teacher ran off with his ex-former still together apparently oh well my English teacher when I was doing GCSE English she got pregnant and she was pregnant with her former student wow yeah and I was like well great thanks for leaving us well at least she waited until he was out of school unlike my Latin teacher that's true that is true but anyway we're well off track. Getting back to this. So basically, a lot of studies do find that this does exist, this idea of the halo effect exists.

But I also did find a lot of studies that said that we also tend to have negative feelings associated towards very attractive people. And we think that they're sly and duplicitous and manipulative. So it could go either way for you. I thought that was interesting. That is interesting. But whatever we want to think about what was going on with Sabrina and whether people thought she was capable of doing horrendous things or criminal things or not because of her appearance, horrendous things were most definitely on the cards.

Because little did anyone know that behind closed doors at 164, Sabrina Cudier was spiralling into a dangerous world of delusion that ended in the horrific murder of her au pair, Sophie Lyonnais. And when Sophie's body was discovered burning on that bonfire, the case hit headlines all over the world. People were completely obsessed with this case. I still remember when it came out. Because it feels like it happened years ago.

It was only in 2017. But few around the world were following the story more closely than Mark Walton, the founding member of pop sensation Boyzone. International listeners, if you do not know the musical sensation that was Boyzone, they're a poor man's westlife is

what they are they are we discussed this at length this morning we did we did the most famous boyzone song is love me for a reason and let that reason be love fight us i think that that is that's got to be the best one um and even that is only just has a good look on spotify because that will tell us like the most streamed of Boyzone versus Westlife. I always think that I want it that way, is Boyzone, but it's not. It's Backstreet Boys, who are a far superior band. Oh, Boyzone. I mean, I don't know if they're still going.

They have a different song that is number one. Picture of You. Oh. I don't know what that is. I don't know what that is. Love Me For A Reason is four. What? Picture of You, No Matter What. We tried to listen to that. We didn't know what that is. I don't know what that is. Love Me For A Reason is four. What? Picture of you, no matter what.

We tried to listen to that. We didn't recognize it. Every Day I Love You. No. Love Me For A Reason. Love me for a reason. Let the reason be love. And that's the whole song.

That's the only bit that's a banger in that entire song. The rest of it is shit. Yeah. Westlife. Let's see. What are you putting your bets on? Flying Without Wings. 100%. Nope. Really? It's not even in the top five. Fuck. Yeah. Westlife. Let's see. What are you putting your bets on? Flying Without Wings. 100%.

Nope. Really? It's not even in the top five. Fuck, really? I know. Oh, is it Women Beneath My Wings? No, you'll never guess what it is because I've never heard of it. My Love.

God, what a bland title. Number two is Uptown Girl. That is a banger. I will hear nothing against Uptown Girl. Swear It Again is for. But no, Flying Without Wings isn't on here. I'm shocked. Flying Without Wings. There are so many children in that video. It's weird. But there are children in all of them. We've watched many 90s boy band videos this morning. Much to the chagrin of everyone who works next to us.

Well, you know what? He can stop taking phone calls at the top of his fucking lungs, can't he? We decided that actually Blue were really an evolution. They were. But I think, I will say, I think Boys' Own walked so Blue could run. I think so. I think so. They lay the foundation. They did. They did. I think

it was like, they were solid. Flying Without Wings, banger. Blue, All Rise, banger. Yeah, total banger. And then we went to In Gentle and we went to O-Town, All or Nothing. That was a great song. Yeah. Because I want it all.

Never mind, you don't want to hear that. You want to hear about some other things. But no, I think the Boyzone element is a very interesting part of this case because, yes, Mark Walton, founding member of Boyzone, was watching this story unravel with much horror from 5,000 miles away in LA. And that's because Mark had played a pivotal yet unsuspecting role in the death of Sophie Leonet. It's not as complicated as it sounds. Let me explain. Sabrina and Mark Walton had been lovers. They had been in an on-again, off-again relationship for about seven years. They met in London in 2011, when Mark was apparently in line at the bank

and Sabrina was ahead of him in the queue. There's so much unnecessary information about this particular, like, tryst out there. And apparently they were in a bank in Notting Hill, in a NatWest bank in Notting Hill. What's the worst bank? Waiting to look at their money or something, I don't know. So Mark says that he asked the bank manager who the woman was in front of him. And then discovered that she had asked about him too. So the bank manager introduced them.

What a fucking meet cute. Like what if you were in there to be like, I'm actually in, I'm bankrupt and I need your help Nat West. And the bank manager's like, I know who likes you. Marry Mark Walton, he'll pay your debt off love. All that boy's own money. Soon after the bank meeting, Sabrina text Mark and invited him out and he went thinking

it was a date but when he arrived at the selected bar there were 11 other men there who clearly thought they were also supposed to be on a date with sabrina what i mean sabrina cudier she is just i don't know what brazen brazen is that the word i don't know what the word is she is fucking on another planet. Yeah, and what this meeting actually was, was Sabrina Cudier trying to get all 12 of these men onto a pyramid scheme, selling phone lines. Most of the men left, but for some reason,

founding member of Boyzone, Mark Walton, stayed. Yep. He said later in an interview that he stayed because she intrigued him. Nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope. I'm going to say this now, right? If you are intrigued on date one, red flag. If they intrigue you, no. I don't think that's a red flag.

Why are people being intriguing? You should just be like, he was lovely. He was nice. He was kind. He seemed great. Nothing intriguing about him whatsoever. He was so boring. Can't wait. There was nothing interesting about him at all.

There's something sinister about the word intriguing. Oh, I don't know. I'd rather take intrigue than Hannah Blankface. So Mark Walton even bought into this phone line company scheme situation, which is even more mind-blowing when you realise that at the time he was investing in Sabrina's phone scam because it was a scam. He was also managing the king of the bangers, the boy band Blue. Yeah. Who, embarrassingly, I have seen live more than one. Amazing.

It was a promise in the park one year and they were headlining and that was bizarre. But it was kind of like only Duncan and they'd like swapped out everyone else, like this sort of sugar babe situation. Oh dear. I had a good time. I was fucking hammered by that time. So not only was he managing Blue, he was working with Lady Gaga and Enrique Iglesias and JLo. So he's not in need of a few quid.

No, this was like 10, 11 years ago. Mark Wharton was probably, I mean, he seems to be doing fine now. He's one of the judges of um like pop idol asia yeah and he's making serious bank he's fucking loaded now but i think 11 12 years ago he was doing very well he was very relevant then so this is what surprises me as well that sabrina coudier she's no one she not famous. She's just like a attractive looking mum who lives in London. Yeah. And Mark Wharton like falls all over himself to join her pyramid scheme. It's weird. It is weird.

So according to Mark, Sabrina Cudier told him that she had been abused all of her life, including having been raped by two of her uncles. And he said that a large part of his sort of draw towards her was because of this sort of drive to want to take care of her. And he said, yes, sometimes she was prone to violent mood swings. But he also said that she had a soft and gentle side to her. This is the thing. It's like from the off, the way that Mark describes their relationship and the way that everybody describes their relationship, it is such like classic abusive behavior. Like he rationalizes so much of it by being like, yeah, sometimes she was

fucking crazy, but she was also really nice to me sometimes. And it's like, Mark, Mark, buddy, no. And a few months after they met and sort of started getting together, Mark even gave up his place in Notting Hill, a very nice part of London, and moved in with Sabrina, paying her £2,000 a month in rent. Okay. And after this, after they move in together, the violence began to escalate. Sabrina was prone, like Mark himself admitted, to fits of violent rage. And she apparently once even woke Mark up with a punch to the face that left him bruised for days. And why, you might ask? Well, according to Mark, it was because he was snoring. So Mark admits that Sabrina's physical and emotional abuse had left him scared at times,

but he thought that he could help her and he thought he could make her feel better. And he also says, yes, there were definitely times where I was scared, but I never thought she would actually hurt me. Again, it's a lot of like rationalising behaviour afterwards because this particular incident really highlights that she was a violent person because apparently one time Mark and Sabrina were in their house well in her house that he's paying her rent for and he was like going through a wardrobe looking for something that belonged to him and he found some photos of her with another man and when he confronted her about it apparently

she began berating him saying that he was trying to control her apparently at this point she then threw a heavy glass ashtray at his face but even after this and it's so heartbreaking mark stayed and he said in interviews since i know it doesn't make sense but i loved her and again i know i'm being like oh mark why you there? And we know why people stay. We know how coercive control works. We know how emotional abuse and emotional manipulation works. We all know why he stayed, because she was incredibly manipulative. Yeah. But it really, it's just really sad,

because she really, really ran roughshod over him for like seven years. And her paranoia was a staple of their relationship. She already had a son when she met Mark, and during the 14 or so months that they lived together, they got through four full-time nannies. Because Sabrina would inevitably accuse Mark of sleeping with each one of the nannies, she even set up secret cameras to spy on him. But despite all the footage she got of Mark definitely not banging the nannies, she was always suspicious.

And then Sabrina got pregnant. Mark was over the moon. He'd always wanted to be a dad. And maybe he thought another child would chill her out a bit. But after a few months, Sabrina went home to France, claiming that her mum was sick. And one day, while still in France, Sabrina gave Mark a call and simply said, The baby died. I had a miscarriage, get on with your life.

Mark soon discovered that that wasn't true at all. Sabrina had had the baby in France. And even still, Mark stayed with her for years, even after all of that. But then he moved to LA for work and Sabrina cut off all contact with him completely. Even still, Mark kept sending Sabrina money. He even paid the rent for the Southfields flat. And he repeatedly asked Sabrina to provide a DNA test so that he could be sure that their child was his,

but she refused every time. So eventually, Mark cut Sabrina off financially too. And this is the turning point. She's already living in the Southfields flat where Sophie Lyonnais would go on to be murdered when Mark and her separate and it is at that point that he cuts her off financially that she totally goes ballistic. And with Mark like we said 5,000 miles away at this point in LA, Sabrina knew that she couldn't get her hands on him. So a lot of what happens from here on out is, I think, Sabrina Cudier re-rooting her frustration and her anger

and her rage that she feels towards Mark Walton onto other people that are nearer to her. And a prime example of how she starts doing this is that as soon as Mark cut her off financially, she contacted several of Mark's clients, including, according to Mark Walton, incredibly influential people within the music industry, and told them that Mark was a paedophile. And she even called the police in London over 30 times to report Mark. For everything from accusing Mark of sexually abusing her cat. The perfect thing about that particular accusation is that she nor Mark had ever had a cat.

She also accused him of being involved in a black magic paedophile ring and of sneaking into her flat to, quote, extract semen from her new boyfriend. Jesus Christ. And Mark has since said again in interviews, quote, extract semen from her new boyfriend. Jesus Christ. And Mark has since said again in interviews, quote, I loved Sabrina wildly and passionately. I was blinded by love until I found out she was a calculating, manipulative psychopath.

And everyone loves calling their ex a psychopath. But I think Mark Wharton's assessment of Sabrina is probably not too far off. In 2016, soon after the end of her relationship with Mark, Sabrina rekindled things with Sam Maduni, a man she'd met way back in 2011 at a Paris funfair. And she moved him into the South Fields flat that Mark was still paying the rent for, and Sam, who was clearly infatuated with Sabrina, basically began doing everything for her. Although she wasn't exactly over Mark.

One day she even took a picture of Mark, cut out of a newspaper to the local shop and asked Sonny Patel if he'd seen him. Oh no. She said to Sonny Patel that this was a dangerous man and they needed to call the police because he was breaking into her house and abusing her children, even though at the time Mark was still very much

living in LA, thousands of miles away. It was at this point that Sabrina Cudier started to draw her unsuspecting au pair Sophie into her delusions. She became obsessed with the idea that Sophie was taking drugs and having an affair with Mark, who, yet again, is still in LA. She started to accuse the confused 21-year-old, who'd probably never fucking heard of Boyzone, of handing her children over to Mark so that he could sexually abuse them. Sophie obviously denied these outrageous claims, but that only made Sabrina more angry and more convinced that she was right. Because that's what happens when you're deluded. Sabrina stopped paying Sophie entirely. She took her passport away and took her phone away too. Soon, Sophie was only allowed to call

her mum and dad using Sabrina's phone and only with Sabrina stood right in front of her. By this point, Sophie was working 80 hours a week and barely even being fed. She was only allowed to drop off and pick up the kids from school and do the grocery shopping. And the local chip shop owner who worked in Southfields noticed, like many of the other residents had, just how thin Sophie had got. And apparently this guy actually used to give her free chips and like cans of soft drinks. That's heartbreaking. I know. And apparently, Sabrina one day saw this happening. She stormed into the chip shop, screamed at the owner, grabbed Sophie and dragged her home.

And the next time the chip shop owner saw Sophie, he actually offered her the money to buy a flight back to France. But for some reason, Sophie turned him down. And the some reason is what he says. He's like, I don't know why she turned, because like speaking retrospectively after everything happened, obviously we know why, because she's fucking terrified. She obviously didn't know the severity of what was going to happen at that point, I don't think. Even still, I love you, chip shop man. Me too. He's so sweet. So after just a few months in the UK, Sophie Lyonnais was living like a slave, trapped under the roof of somebody

incredibly dangerous. And I don't think she realised, or anyone realised, just how dangerous Sabrina Cudier was. You don't believe in ghosts? I get it. Lots of people don't. I didn't either, until I came face to face with them. Ever since that moment, hauntings, spirits, and the unexplained have consumed my entire life. I'm Nadine Bailey. I've been a ghost tour guide for the past 20 years. I've taken people along with me into the shadows, uncovering the macabre tales that linger in the darkness, and inside some of the most haunted houses, hospitals, prisons, and more. Join me every week on my podcast, Haunted Canada, as we journey through terrifying and bone-chilling stories of the unexplained.

Search for Haunted Canada on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you find your favorite podcasts. Hi, I'm Lindsey Graham, the host of Wondery Show American Scandal. We bring to light some of the biggest controversies in U.S. history. Presidential lies, environmental disasters, corporate fraud. In our latest series, NASA embarks on an ambitious program to reinvent space exploration with the launch of its first reusable vehicle, the Space Shuttle. And in 1985, they announced they're sending teacher Krista McAuliffe into space aboard the Space Shuttle Challenger, along with six other astronauts. But less than two minutes after liftoff, the Challenger explodes. And in the tragedy's aftermath, investigators uncover a series of preventable failures by NASA and its contractors

that led to the disaster. Follow American Scandal on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. Experience all episodes ad-free and be the first to binge the newest season only on And the worst thing about all of this, about this entire fucking case, is that Sophie had absolutely no help whatsoever. Firstly, she's completely displaced. She's in a brand new country. She's there to learn the language, so her English isn't perfect. She doesn't have a support network. She doesn't even have a phone or a passport anymore. But where it gets worse is that in Britain, the au pairing market is completely unregulated. Because au pairs, and I did not know this, au pairs are not

technically classed as workers. No, it's seen as sort of like an exchange program. Yeah, it is. And so there are absolutely no rules in this country on anything from working conditions, hours, pay, nothing. Au pairs are not even entitled to minimum wage or basic paid leave. The rules are so woolly, it basically just says the following on the official gov.uk website. It says that au pairs are to help with light housework and childcare for around 30 hours a week,

including a couple of evenings babysitting, for which they should get reasonable pocket money. That's all it says. What the fuck does that mean? Yeah, define reasonable pocket money. Exactly. You're not the fucking tooth fuck does that mean? Yeah, define reasonable pocket money. Exactly. You're not the fucking tooth fairy, gov.uk. I know, right? The real kicker was that depending on how much pocket money au pairs get,

they are still subject to tax and national insurance. Classic. Classic British government there. Austerity's not dead. You must have seen, there's quite a lot of posts online of like people looking for au pairs with these like outrageous demands that like must have a degree in child development and speak four languages, pay £2.50 an hour, no nights off. And everyone's just commenting going to be like you want a slave. That's what you want. Like you do not want someone with an incredibly skilled slave. Yes, exactly. So as you can see, this system absolutely leaves au pairs like Sophie Lyonnais open to all sorts of potential abuse. And as Sabrina's delusions grew, unchecked by a submissive and compliant Wissam Maduni, she ramped up her campaign of terror against Sophie.

Sophie was soon barred from leaving the house at all, constantly being screamed at by an increasingly unhinged Sabrina. And as the days went by, and Sophie refused to admit to her mystical affair with Mark, Sabrina got Wiesam involved. She pulled him into her fantasy and he became the executor of her more perverse demands. Wiesam's a big guy and Sophie, already tiny and now starved beyond recognition, was super, super small. And he would beat her upon Sabrina's orders. The couple also kept Sophie awake for days on end. They even waterboarded her in their bath. But despite the pain, hunger, fear and exhaustion, Sophie still kept denying all of the bizarre accusations that were thrown at her.

After six weeks of relentless torture at the hands of these maniacs, the brutality reached its climax. And we know exactly how Sophie's final hours unraveled because Sabrina Cudier audio recorded the entire ordeal on her phone because she claimed she was going to use it as evidence when she called the police on Sophie. You can't call the police on someone having an affair with your ex-boyfriend. The main crux of her accusations towards Sophie is that she claims that she's letting Mark Walton into the house. Oh, right.

Okay. To inject her full of drugs to make Sabrina Cudier pass out. And then they're sexually abusing the kids. Or she says that Sophie is taking the kids out, pretending to take them to school or the park and actually taking them to a house where Mark Wharton rapes them. So she basically says this again and again and again during the interrogation. And the audio recordings of the interrogation have never been made public. I don't know if it's because they're just too much.

I don't know what reason they have, because obviously they were a main part of the evidence of this case. But the transcripts are out there and I have read all of them and it is fucking disgusting and disgustingly long because she records 12 days jesus 12 consecutive days of torture and the thing is they are horrific and i was like do i need to keep reading them but they were very revealing as well so let's talk about it because most of the recording is Sabrina screaming at Sophie saying things like to open her mouth and admit it she says that again and again and again and also when you're reading the transcript they are kind of off a bit because Sabrina Cudier she's like French Algerian English isn't her first

language so some of the things she's saying make no sense because they're crazy and also sound like a non-native English speaker. So sometimes they also don't make sense because you're not hearing them said. You're just reading a transcript and it's a bit hard to understand what she means. I wonder then why she's not speaking French to Sophie. I don't know. Why is there this... She always speaks English.

Interesting. In the entire thing she's speaking English. So yes, it is weird that that is the case. And she basically screams at Sophie constantly to open her mouth, like I said, and admit it. She also asks her repeatedly, where is the house? Where is the house? Where is the house? And presumably the house she's talking about is the one that she is accusing Sophie of running off to sleep with Mark Walton in or accusing Sophie of taking the boys to be abused by Mark him. And the thing with the transcript is it reads very much like Sabrina Cudier is absolutely

convinced by the things that she is saying. She doesn't sound like she's just getting off on the torture. I'm not excusing it. We'll talk about how I think there are times when she's getting off on it in a bit. But it seems like she's very mission orientated yeah during the interrogation she is like quickly tell me where is the house is it next door is it a house in the area tell me tell me tell me tell me she just goes on and on and on it's relentless and in the transcript notes the person who's obviously translating them they've just put things like you can hear Sophie whimpering or crying or saying inaudible things like Sophie is not really present in terms of vocally for much of these interrogations and often there's just breaks in the transcript where the

transcriber has just written banging sounds and the only thing I can think that means is it's when Sophie's being beaten by Wissam Maduni at Sabrina Cudier's orders. So Wissam Maduni's role in this abuse, in these torture sessions is very interesting because some people like to kind of make him seem like this sort of brainless idiot who's just like, oh, okay, I'll like yes master yeah and that's not what's happening I actually think at points and when I say it was revealing this is one of the most revealing things I actually think at points he's very very lucid in what's happening he's also very manipulative in what's going on because he absolutely plays the kind of good cop to Sabrina's bad cop he says things to Sophie like quote it's okay she won't hurt you while I'm here,

just tell me the truth, what happened? I don't know. We'll go on to talk about whether he really believes the crazy shit Sabrina's saying, because he must logically know that Mark Walton is in LA. Or does he really believe it? I don't know. But either way, there's no way to say that Wissam Maduni isn't A, incredibly manipulative, and B, incredibly violent, because he seems to be the one who mainly carries out the physical punishments against Sophie, though I'm not saying Sabrina doesn't do any of it. And Madhuni even confronted Sophie at one point during the interrogations and says, quote, he, meaning Mark, messaged you on Facebook, right? That's how it all started. That kind of makes me

feel like, is he role playing or does he really believe it? I don't know. I don't know. I think clearly Sabrina is, I'm not saying that Madhu needs some sort of innocent party in this because he's obviously not. I would argue that she's capable of convincing Sophie Leonet that she literally cannot just get on a flight and just stay in the chip shop. Oh yeah, because this is the other thing. It's very like coming back to like Colleen Stan style, right? Whenever Sophie wants to sort of leave or she just begs her to be able to go home, Sabrina says things to her like, if you leave this house

I'm going to call the police and they will come arrest you and you'll go to jail for 40 years. She like says it that specifically. And it just becomes increasingly deranged as time goes on. Sabrina even accused Sophie of knowing who her parents were and lying, all because Sophia just looked at a picture of Sabrina's parents that was hung up in the house. And then Sabrina goes on for a good 15 minutes about how many lozenges

and how much tap water he, presumably Mark, gave her. I think this is the thing is throughout the entire interrogation, you can tell it's exhausting just to read it, but to have lived through that for 12 days at the hands of this woman who, again, I obviously couldn't hear the audio of it, but the transcripts, you can get the frantic energy. You can get the like the mania from just the words transcribed. And it's like, Sophie, there's no way she could have withstood this because in a lot of the documentaries people keep saying oh Sophie was very young she was very naive she was very sheltered and all of those things are true but they kind of make it seem like that's the reason that this case

ended the way it ended but that's not true because how many times have we covered cases on Red Handed it doesn't matter who you are, how quote unquote unnaive or how invulnerable you are, even though Sophie was those things. This kind of abuse would have broken anybody. So I don't know, I kind of feel like they always make that the reason for what happened. I'm like, that's not the reason. Sabrina Cudier is fucking just vile. She's out of control. And so you can hear, well, you can tell from the transcripts that Sophie is completely exhausted and totally broken. She hardly ever replies.

That's something that no doubt infuriated Sabrina, who constantly accused Sophie of being so calm because she was on heroin. Where do you think she's getting heroin from? She's not allowed to go outside. Sabrina's favourite thing to say to Sophie is that she would let Mark Walton into the house when everyone was asleep

and Mark Walton would go around the house injecting everybody with drugs so that he could rape the kids and giving Sophie Lyonnais heroin. It's like the pictures, right? The parents' pictures. It's like everything Sophie did or everything she didn't do,

Sabrina Cudier would read some hidden meaning into it and just start to do it. So if she's too calm, if she's too, like, not screaming back at you while you're screaming at her, must be because she's on heroin. And must be because Mark Walton has come into the house and injected everyone full of heroin. Christ.

And then finally, after weeks of torture, on the 20th of September 2017, Sabrina Cudier and Wissam Maduni put Sophie in the bath and they drowned her. Sophie had finally quote-unquote admitted to everything Sabrina was demanding and with that confession Sabrina decided she wasn't going to go to the police with all of her evidence after all. But that was because she was going to execute the guilty party herself. And this is the thing. It's like, Sophie held out the six weeks of torture without saying, yes, fine, that's what happened. I mean, we have seen people break far sooner than that.

So that's kind of why I get annoyed when people always say, she was so vulnerable, she was so naive. That's true, but that's not how she handled herself in this horrendous situation I wouldn't hold out for six weeks while someone was beating me up oh hell no I'd just be like fine take it whatever you fucking want yeah whatever you want take me Jesus exactly goodbye cruel world precisely so I don't know I think that's why I get my back up a little bit when people say that about Sophie constantly because what she went through and what she lived through, there's no way she was just a vulnerable little girl, as is so often painted of her.

It was later revealed in court that immediately after Wissam Maduni and Sabrina Cudier had drowned Sophie in the bath, they apparently had sex on the bathroom floor less than a metre from Sophie's drowned body. Why? Why does that happen? Is that Sabrina Cudier rewarding Wee Samaduni for doing her bidding? I mean, it would make sense. It's an incredibly manipulative thing to do to use sex as a weapon. Absolutely. And it is a particularly disturbing part of an already nightmarish case. But like, I don't know. It's hard to know the extent to

which sexual abuse was involved in terms of what they did to Sophie Lyonnais. We don't know if they raped Sophie. We don't know what happened there because they torture her and basically keep her locked in the house for six weeks, but we only have 12 days worth of audio recordings. And they burnt her body. And they burnt her body. And her body, when the remains of her body were discovered, they were so damaged that they couldn't even really tell how she had died it was because of what they could sort of infer from the audio tapes that they ruled it as a drowning they definitely couldn't have told if she had been sexually abused but it is clear from all the evidence that Sabrina was definitely like we said

the dominant aggressor so did she have sex in the bathroom with Weesam because she got off on the murder? I don't know. We do know that that is an incredibly rare thing when it comes to female killers. Was it relief maybe? Finally Sophie had confessed all her wild delusions, all her wild delusions were now validated. Was it this overwhelming like euphoria that her delusions are now like-stamped? I don't know. Or, like we said, was she simply rewarding Weesam? By all accounts, like we said, he was completely infatuated with Sabrina and maybe sex was a tool that she used to control and manipulate him.

After they were finished having sex, the couple covered Sophie's tiny body in caustic acid and then they bundled Sophie's body into a suitcase which they shoved into their garden shed. It would be a few more days before their ill-conceived barbecue slash bonfire party. When authorities first got Sophie's remains to examine, they actually thought that she was a child because of how tiny her body had become. And when a haunting video of Sophie taken just hours before she died was discovered on Sabrina's phone, it

really cemented just how emaciated Sophie was. I'm going to show you the picture of Sophie. This was found on Sabrina Cudier's phone. And you remember what Sophie looked like before? Yeah. This is her now. Wow. Yeah. That's an emaciated person. You can see you have forehead bone. It was tricky because of the damage done to the body to identify any particular cause of death. But the damage to Sophie's body that was still evident was horrifying. She had five cracked ribs, a broken jaw and a broken sternum, which takes some fucking doing.

A sternum, a broken sternum is like unbelievable. I was trying to look up like the pressure it takes and it kind of doesn't really translate because it's like this many pounds to this and I was like that doesn't really mean anything but it's fucking hard to break your sternum. Let's just say that. And the worst thing is, well I mean it's all the worst thing

but one of the worst things is that the sternum had shown signs of healing so they were able to tell that Sophie, the NA, had lived for at least three days with a broken sternum. The injuries that Sophie Lienay had lived for at least three days with a broken sternum. The injuries that Sophie had sustained are consistent to having been in a catastrophic car accident. So while it's very obvious from the tapes that Sabrina was the ringleader, she's also completely delusional and absolutely seems to believe the batshit crazy things that she's saying. What that doesn't explain is what motivated Wee Sam. Yeah, because

absolutely from the tapes you can see that Sabrina totally, totally, totally fucking believes the batshit things she's saying. But with Wee Sam Maduni it's interesting because I think it's probably not much of a leap to say that this is likely a case of foliojur. So foliojur or SPD or shared psychotic disorder, as I'm sure you all know because you're very intelligent people is of course the psychological phenomenon of a madness or delusion shared by two people and in such cases there will be a dominant psychotic individual or an inducer who has what's known as the organic disease so they're the one with the actual delusions they're the one who maybe has psychosis.

And then there's the other person to whom the delusions are transmitted and therefore they develop a delusional disorder by proxy. Now this person may go on to share the inducer's delusions entirely or only in part. Now it's clear in this case that Sabrina's delusions about Mark Walton at least to some degree transfer to Wissam Maduni. I think that the things that he says in the interrogation tapes I can't believe that he's only playing a role. I feel like he does believe it to some extent and I think he kept up his role as this sort of protector for Sabrina Cudier even after the arrests because

Wissam Maduni, when both of them were arrested the day of the bonfire, confessed that he alone had tortured and killed Sophie Lienet. He said that Sabrina had nothing to do with it. But she's got the fucking tapes on her phone of her screaming at Sophie. And she's just not very fucking smart because Sabrina also told the police that she hadn't even known Sophie's surname. Apparently, she said that this au pair had just pissed off out of the blue a few days ago, and she had just thought, good riddance, because apparently, according to Sabrina, Sophie had turned up from France and was an absolutely terrible nanny. According to her,

Sophie had just laid about all day, wanting her to wait on her hand and foot. She's got the audio recordings and the photo on her phone as she's saying these things. A phone that's been confiscated by police, as she well fucking knows. I mean, she just lives in a different world. I think that's very evident. She truly does. And it's like, she lives in a different world.

She's obviously very, very delusional. But it's like she thinks, I can just say whatever and people will just believe me. Oh, yeah. She's very convinced of that. And then Sabrina went on to make bizarre claims about Sophie to the police, saying that Sophie had betrayed Sabrina

all to have a shot at fame. She claimed that her ex, Mark Walton, original boy band member, had paid Sophie £18,000 to act as his spy in Sabrina's house. She also said that Sophie was opening the door and letting Mark into the house at night so that he could inject everybody with drugs and abuse the children. Apparently, on top of the money, Mark had promised Sophie a role in an upcoming Tom Cruise film if she just

helped him carry out his evil plan. Obviously, the new Top Gun has come out and obviously Tom Cruise is not only in the original Top Gun, he's in this one too. And there's so many pictures of him on the red carpet, like holding hands with Kate Middleton. And I'm just like, has everyone forgotten about the Scientology thing? Has everyone just like swept that under the carpet? I saw those. I didn't see the holding hands, but I could believe it. Because what I did see, I was like, why are they so chummy with him? They were like smiling.

Like, oh, the man's a maniac. They've got something on them. They must do. Scientology have got something on the royals. They were like smiling like the man's a maniac. They've got something on them. They must do. Scientology have got something on the royals. They definitely do. They probably got a tape

of sweaty Prince Nance Andrew and they're like we will release it and bring down the fucking monarchy if you don't let Tom Cruise hold Kate Middleton's hand

on the red carpet. Yeah. Where is Shelley Miscavige? Where is she? Not here. Do you know who knows? Kate Middleton. Fine.

But yeah, coming back to Sabrina Cudier and all of these things that she's saying about like the Tom Cruise film, the 18,000 pounds, this, that and the other. This is what I mean when I said at the start that this entire story is born out of pure fantasy and fiction. None of this is grounded in any sort of reality. This isn't just like she's got the wrong end of the stick or she's picked up a little bit here and there or something or a suspicion. Sophie Lyonnais did never meet Mark Walton, had never had any communication with Mark Walton. It is completely out of thin air. Sabrina Cudier concluded her batshit police interview by labelling Sophie Lyonnais as a

quote, evil monster monster but she maintained that she Sabrina was completely innocent she'd never even been near the house the day that Sophie had died but it wouldn't take the police too long to find the audio recordings that place Sabrina very much at the centre of the torture and murder of Sophie Lyonnais and after this interview Wiesam also retracted his original statement, claiming that he hadn't taken part in the torture at all, but he had killed Sophie with Sabrina because Sabrina had told him to. He said that he'd only confessed at first to protect Sabrina,

and now it was pretty obvious that he was not going to be able to do that anymore. In court, the couple eventually admitted to perverting the course of justice, but both still denied Sophie Lyonnais' murder, pointing the finger at the other one. But thanks to the interrogation tapes that Sabrina Cudier had made herself, the jury were hardly left in any doubt about what had happened. And so, Sabrina Cudier and Wissam Maduni were both found guilty of murder and sentenced to a minimum term of 30 years. Sabrina Cudier, during her time in prison and during the run-up to the trial, was diagnosed with BPD, or borderline personality disorder. And of course, BPD does not make one a violent killer.

There were clearly many other issues at play here. But Sabrina was completely delusional. She absolutely believed the things that she was saying and no amount of evidence or pushback from anyone was ever going to change her mind. So was Sabrina insane? Well she's certainly not mentally well I think we can say that but insanity as you'll know if you're a long-time red-handed listener is not so simple. Insanity is a legal concept not a psychological one. To be found not guilty by reason of insanity, you would need to show, and this is absolutely a very, very dumbed down version because it absolutely depends on where you are, who's trying you, geographically where you are,

what the laws in that country slash state are. But generally, it would need to depend on whether the person knew the difference between right and wrong at the point that they committed the crime. Serena quite clearly knew what she did was wrong. She lied to the police about killing Sophie. She claimed Sophie had just run away. And she, along with Weesam, had tried to dispose of Sophie's body to evade detection. Insanity is a complex idea in law, but clearly trying to conceal your crimes

usually will scupper any arguments of it. The classic example is Richard Chase. I think that's the easiest explanation. Like he didn't wash his hands. He made absolutely no effort to hide what he was doing. He walked out of crime scenes covered in blood. And even another example that's maybe more complex is somebody like Andrea Yates, who we've talked about many times.

She's in the book. She's also, we've done an entire episode on her. And she is kind of the perfect example of insanity because she wasn't Richard Chase style walking out of crime scenes covered in blood. But with Andrea Yates, she was absolutely delusional. She was hearing voices and things. But with her, as soon as she committed the crime, she called the police and she was like, I've done something terrible. You need to come arrest me. But I did something terrible because I had to do it. She killed all her children because she thought that was the only way to save them and she was insane so I think it is a very complicated thing but here Sabrina lies and lies and lies and lies and they try to destroy

Sophie's body she's not like forthcoming about any of it no but I'm not saying she's not delusional I'm not saying she's completely like has no touch with reality but that doesn't necessarily make her insane in a legal sense which is the only sense there is when it comes to insanity. If Sabrina had really just believed all of the crazy stuff she was saying she should have called the police and reported Sophie and Mark. This is it because some people will make the argument well she was clearly very unwell she was clearly very like delusional and this kind of thing there's no excuse for what she did at all because if she really believed these things which she obviously did she could have called the police and been like my husband is breaking into our house and sexually abusing children and then she obviously wouldn't

have believed the police but maybe if she'd have done that she would have been sectioned or taken off or something but she doesn't she tortures-year-old woman to death over six weeks. A 21-year-old woman who is desperately begging to be allowed to go home. Yep. So if she really is letting your ex-boyfriend into the house at night, send her packing. Send her back to France. Precisely.

If you really think that she's that much of a danger to your children. So at the end of the day, the fact that Sabrina tortured and killed Sophie means that she wasn't just delusional. She was deeply dangerous and a violent person who, according to every single ex-boyfriend of hers who took the stand at her trial, was unhinged and unstable. Sabrina somehow managed to get away with her troubling behaviour for years, but eventually it led to the death of an innocent young woman. Sophie's family have been, of course, left shattered by her death. And their pain was only added to when the police discovered a note in the tiny room that she was locked up in at the Cudier house. And this note read,

Why me? I need help to stop them. And that's the biggest tragedy of this entire story, is that Sophie Lyonnais, just 21 years old, was left alone with these maniacs, with no one to turn to for help, under a system that completely enabled her exploitation. And also that a lot of people saw Unraveling and nobody stepped in. And everyone in that documentary,

there's lots of documentaries about this case. I'll leave the links in the show notes. Some of them are like on Daily Motion. I don't know if they'll still be up by the time you're clicking on it, but they were there. You know, the chip shop owner, particularly the end scene of one of the documentaries is just him crying because he is like, I should have done more. Again, I guess if you were doing it in a legal sense, like how much should a reasonable person have thought that this is how that would have reasonably ended what steps should they or could they have taken to intervene in that case and you know the chip shop owner is very forthcoming with it he says when she screamed at me and dragged Sophie off I should have done something

but I kind of just thought it's not my place to get involved yeah I think that's sort of like it's not my place argument I completely understand why people make it like nobody thinks that they're actually going to kill her. Because as a quote unquote normal person, your mind doesn't go there. No, but it makes me think of Jay the comedian, David Sloss. Name sounds familiar. He's got a very famous special called Jigsaw, which is about breakups. And basically 90% of the couples who go and see it break up afterwards. Oh my God, what? Yeah, he just makes an argument of like what happiness is

and like are you doing this for the right reasons basically. But I'm not going to talk about Jigsaw. There's another one where I first came across this clip when Sarah Everard died and he's talking about a friend of his who raped a woman and he was like, if I am honest with myself, really honest, there were red flags and I ignored them and he went on to rape someone talk to your boys like it's like that like obviously retrospectives a different thing

when I first saw it I didn't stop thinking about it for like three weeks because we all ignore things there's also a certain personality makeup you would have to have to intervene in a situation like that I think it's not everybody you know I went to the pub the other day with our mutual friend Dami and we were we were actually just sat on Broadway Market at this pub and it was like a Tuesday it was still light outside there was a group of girls sat at the table next to us and there was a man who was very very drunk and it was outside what's that pub called the dove it's all like picnic tables so people have to like group up like if me and him were sat there somebody else would come

be like can we sit on the same picnic table we're like yeah sure so these girls were sat there and to be fair there were four of them and this one guy came over and he was like can i sit with you and they were like no because well fair enough they filled out that picnic table and he was hammered and he was on his own. Yeah, I would. No, absolutely not. And I was actually like fair play to them because they were like, no. And I didn't think they were rude or anything. Like they were just like, no, thanks, mate.

He's hammered. He kicks off and he's just like shouting and swearing and like calling them all sorts of names and like saying all this stuff. And Dami sat facing them and I can't see. I just think it's people in the street. I didn't even turn around. And he was like, I am listening. One sec. And he got up and he went over there and I was like,

and I turned around and realized what's happening. And I was like, no, I was like, no. And my immediate instinct is no, don't get involved. Yeah. Because you don't know what that man is capable of. What if he suddenly pulls out a knife and stabs you? Like, what are we going to do then? And all those girls are looking at me like oh thanks like you're he's not my boyfriend but they're like oh your boyfriend's helping us and i was like dammy come sit back down

because my natural instinct is and maybe it's not nice i was like please don't get involved but i understand why he wanted to do it and he managed to de-escalate that situation but because he's got the right personality profile to de-escalate that situation. But because he's got the right personality profile to de-escalate that situation, not everyone can do that. And I think this is the thing. How many people would truly get involved if they thought there was a situation like that where there is imminent danger possibly versus a situation like this where you're like, there is a pattern of escalating behavior, but it doesn't feel maybe imminent. And this is what happened and it's really heartbreaking at end of one of the documentaries as well that Sophie's parents came to London to see the house where she had died and lay flowers outside and everyone in Southfields was like we couldn't even

look at them because we knew what that woman was doing to their child and we didn't do anything so yeah bummer yeah but yeah that's it guys go listen to some boys own go yeah go listen to some no go listen to some westlife baby flying without wings or go listen to a1 or oh yeah oh yeah oh yeah awesome personal favorite of mine o-town o-town yeah i think because i want it all a1 have more of a catalogue, I would argue. Oh, all right. I never really listened to A1. Well, it's because I took up all of the listening space on the dial-up internet. I see.

I just couldn't stop. Only for my ears. It was only for me, yeah. Ben Adams, if you're out there. Yeah, I met Mark from A1 and I cried. I know. As an adult woman. True story.

True story. Thanks, Mark. so that is that if you want to hear us I don't know singing something else or talking about other things you can head on over to patreon.com slash red-handed right now where you can sign up to become a patron and then have loads of delicious juicy extra red-handed content delivered straight to your podcast player in your phone and you can listen along whenever you fancy and this month not only do we have our usual four under the duvets going out every single wednesday we also have our full-length bonus episode that goes out for ten dollar and up patrons which is on mr mormon doctor dentist trainee lawyer bishop all of the above mr martin mcneil if you don't know that story, it's fucking crazy.

He basically convinces his wife to have a bunch of facelifts and then he kills her. Spoilers. Yeah, so go and listen to that at patreon.com forward slash red handed. Go and vote for us in the British Podcast Awards. We desperately need you to do that. If you do nothing else today, please click the link below this episode. It costs you nothing apart from your seconds of your time you do not have to be British you can be anywhere

in the world and richest university in America. But when a social media-fueled fight over Harvard and its new president broke out last fall, that was no protection. Claudine Gay is now gone. We've exposed the DEI regime, and there's much more to come. This is The Harvard Plan, a special series from the Boston Globe and WNYC's On the Media. To listen, subscribe to On the Media wherever you get your podcasts. He was hip hop's biggest mogul, the man who redefined fame, fortune, and the music industry. The first male rapper to be honored on the Hollywood Walk of Fame, Sean Diddy Cone. Diddy built an empire and lived a life most people only dream about. Everybody know ain't no party like a Diddy party, so. Yeah, that's what's up.

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I'm disgusted. I'm so sorry. Until you're wearing an orange jumpsuit, it's not real. Now it's real. From his meteoric rise to his shocking fall from grace, from law and crime, this is the rise and fall of Diddy. Listen to the rise and fall of Diddy exclusively with Wondery Plus.