RedHanded - Episode 257 - Genes & Justice: Kathleen Folbigg & Patricia Stallings

Episode Date: August 4, 2022

“1 sudden infant death is a tragedy, 2 is suspicious and 3 is murder”; this theory has pervaded criminal investigations for decades. And so when Kathleen Folbigg’s daughter, Laura, became her fourth child to die mysteriously - Kathleen found herself labeled “Australia’s Worst Female Serial Killer”. Today the girls delve into 2 unbelievable cases which highlight the immense challenges of the intersection between science and justice in the courtroom. And discover how a series of bizarre circumstances and medical anomalies could have led to the deaths of 5 babies and the imprisonment of two women. Become a patron: Patreon Order a copy of the book here (US & Canada): Order on Wellesley Books Order on Amazon.com Order a copy of the book here (UK, Ireland, Europe, NZ, Aus): Order on Amazon.co.uk Order on Foyles Follow us on social media: Instagram Twitter Visit our website: Website See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to Red Handed early and ad-free. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. They say Hollywood is where dreams are made. A seductive city where many flock to get rich, be adored, and capture America's heart. But when the spotlight turns off, fame, fortune, and lives can disappear in an instant. Follow Hollywood and Crime, The Cotton Club Murder on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Sruti.

I'm Hannah. And welcome to two-time award-winning Red Handed. Yes, that is correct. If you guys don't follow us on Instagram or any of the socials, I don't understand why. But if you don't, then you might not know that last weekend, Hannah and I went to the British Podcast Awards. We won gold at the Listener's Choice again, two years in a row. And no independent podcast has ever done

that ever in the history of the awards the last show to do two years running was a bbc show I think they won about four times in a row but yeah no independent show has ever done it and now we have and it's all thanks to you guys thank you so much for voting obviously if you did watch the live stream and we are trying to get our hands on the specific segment where we go up there to receive the award you will have noticed that there is a lot of crying going on we were just very blown away by it i couldn't even get through the bit i was trying to say without crying but basically what i was trying to say is how fucking lucky we are to have such incredible listeners who no matter what we ask of you guys like you always show up for us

whether it's about live show tickets whether it's listeners choice whether it's shorthand whether it's patreon whatever it is you're just always there for us and we are incredibly touched and moved and humbled by it so thank you very much exactly so yeah an award for you you can all have an award we ran into drunk women solving crime before one of whom hannah is the proud owner of two emmys and i said well where do you keep them in your house she was like well because it was for a show i worked on you don't get the the trophy you get a plaque and i have my plaque in my office and it's like mirrored so sometimes i look at myself and i was like oh so you didn't like break it up like adele and she was like no it wasn't like me and girls it's like you look so

pretty because now we've got one each we do have one each and it is a magical thing so thank you guys so much and as we promised we did make promises promises were made promises of an episode and a jumping out of a plane kind yep and we're gonna deliver so you guys voted for the bonus episode that you wanted that we promised you if we won gold. We won gold. So in August, you are going to get a full length bonus episode on the West Memphis Three. Because that's what you asked for. That's what you asked for. And we're happy to deliver.

And if you play stupid games, you get stupid prizes, as we have figured out. Now we're going to have to be thrown out of planes, which we will be doing shortly. We are. We're going to wait. We're going to do it in early September, purely because we have a new member of the team joining. be thrown out of planes which we will be doing shortly we are we're gonna wait we're gonna do it in early september purely because we have a new member of the team joining and uh she's just gonna be able to video it much better so that you can all watch it properly so stay tuned for all of those things exactly thank you again right should we get on with the show i think we bloody better been about 10 minutes i know and it is a fucking mad mad case right. Right. On the 9th of July, 1989,

Patricia Stallings bundled her four-month-old son, Ryan, into the car and headed to the hospital. Ryan had been vomiting all weekend, and now he was weak and struggling to breathe. Panicked like any new mum, Patricia had called St. Louis Children's Hospital, and doctors there had told her to bring Ryan to them as soon as she could. Patricia and her husband, David, lived near Lake W Wawanoka and during the research for this case,

I saw in many places that they say that it's not far from St. Louis. It's 40 miles away. Yeah, that is quite far. That's fucking far. In my head, I'm like, it's far if I can't walk there in half an hour. Yeah. Like, even I cannot walk 40 miles in half an hour. They're like, it's just outside St. Louis. And I'm like, it's 40 miles away.

So Patricia had quite the drive ahead of her with her baby in the back. And perhaps because of her fear for Ryan, or because of the crazy afternoon traffic, or perhaps because she hadn't lived in the area very long at all, Patricia Stallings got lost and ended up at the wrong hospital. She found herself instead of at St. Louis Children's Hospital, instead a Cardinal Glennon Hospital. But what did it matter, she thought? It was a hospital and Ryan needed medical attention. But as Patricia would go on to discover, this mistake would change the course of her entire life. Because today we're delving into two unbelievable cases. Cases which

highlight the immense challenges of the intersection between science and justice in the courtroom. By the time Patricia had reached the hospital, baby Ryan was slipping in and out of consciousness and still vomiting. The hospital carried out blood and urine tests to try and figure out what exactly was wrong, because Patricia was totally at a loss. One blood test was carried out in the hospital lab, and another was done by an independent Smith-Kline-Beacham lab in Missouri. Much to the doctor's horror, both blood test results came back positive for ethylene glycol.

Ethylene glycol is a compound found in products like varnish, paint and antifreeze. The only way it could have ended up in little Ryan's blood was if it had been ingested. And since he was just too little at four months to have accidentally drunk it himself, it was starting to look quite a lot like a poisoning. Ethylene glycol is a central nervous system depressant, and in high enough doses, like most things, it's extremely serious and can be fatally toxic. Acting fast, the doctors put Ryan on an IV of ethanol. Now, for some very unnecessary science, but I started doing it so I couldn't stop,

so we'll have to know now. Because I was curious about why ethanol is the treatment for antifreeze poisoning. Why is ethanol the treatment for ethylene glycol poisoning? Because ethanol sounds bad. Just putting someone on IV drip, a four-month-old baby on an IV drip of that sounds bad. But if you two are curious, then be curious no more because I'm about to explain. Ethylene glycol itself, I was interested to find out, is relatively actually non-toxic. The problem is that it metabolises into extremely toxic

substances such as glycolate, glycolic acid, acetone and formaldehyde. And this breakdown is caused by an enzyme in the body called alcohol dehydrogenase. So to prevent ethylene glycol being broken down in the body into these more toxic compounds, you need to find a way to keep the alcohol dehydrogenase occupied until the body has excreted the ethylene glycol. Enter ethanol. And ethanol actually has a much higher affinity for alcohol hydrogenase than ethylene glycol, so bingo.

Does someone happen to have a chemistry A-level? I do. So the reason I bring this up, not just because I'm a massive nerd and I think it's really interesting, is because the ethanol IV drip does become important later on. So after this treatment, Ryan improved. And doctors, who were of course highly suspicious because like Hannah said, ethylene glycol doesn't just end up in your blood. There is no way for your body to naturally make that substance. It had to have been ingested or put into Ryan in some way. So the

doctors called the sheriff's department and the Missouri Department of Family Services to report Patricia. The Stallings home was searched and in the basement two bottles of antifreeze were discovered which in a state where temperatures can drop as low as minus seven, isn't that shocking? I've got antifreeze in the back of my car, like it's a thing that people have. But they were particularly interested in this antifreeze because the main ingredient in antifreeze is, of course, you guessed it, correct, you've passed chemistry A-level, is ethylene glycol. Authorities dug just a little deeper and found that Patricia had another child who had been removed from her care and since

adopted by her sister. This child, who had been born five years before Ryan, had been separated from Patricia due to concerns around their welfare. The child apparently showed a lot of signs of early stage frostbite and malnutrition. So, Ryan was placed in a foster home. But Patricia still had access to her son. She was allowed one supervised visit with him a week. And after the sixth visit, Ryan, once again, got sick. The supervisor who was meant to be watching the entire visit left Patricia unattended with Ryan for a few minutes and it looked as if Patricia had taken this opportunity to try and finish what she had

started with her baby son. The level of ethylene glycol in Ryan's blood was off the charts and the bottle Patricia had used to feed Ryan also tested positive for trace amounts of ethylene glycol even though it had since been washed. Patricia was arrested and charged with assault. Back at the hospital, Ryan was deteriorating and within a week he died. A social worker from Cardinal Glennon Hospital called Patricia in prison to tell her that Ryan was gone, to which she replied, I don't care about that. Put David on the phone now. I want to get out of this hellhole. And Patricia was charged with murder.

And the evidence against her was overwhelming. Two separate labs, including the one at the University of Missouri, had found ethylene glycol in Ryan's blood samples. And the autopsy even revealed that baby Ryan had calcium oxalate crystals in his brain, a clear sign of ethylene glycol poisoning. The prosecutors had a strong case, and they were going to throw the book at Patricia Stallings. They wanted the death penalty.

It is looking pretty much like a slam dunk, isn't it? Yeah. I mean, just the idea that he gets better, and then she sees him. Yeah. And then he's sick again. And as far as they're concerned, she's got form. Yes, exactly. Exactly. So Patricia, by this point, is in prison, charged with murder, awaiting her trial.

And three months later, while in prison awaiting trial, Patricia discovered that she was again pregnant. And five months after baby Ryan died, Patricia had another little boy, David Jr. or DJ. So as soon as he was born, DJ was placed in foster care, obviously because Patricia's still in prison and they don't know for sure that David, her husband, isn't involved in these baby poisonings. So obviously DJ goes straight into protective custody. But within a few weeks, DJ also starts constantly vomiting. DJ was rushed to St. Louis Children's Hospital, where doctors diagnosed him with methylmalonic acidemia,

or MMA, a rare inherited disorder caused by a faulty gene. Children with MMA lack a protein that the body needs to break down fat and cholesterol inside cells. And so, as a result, these substances build up in cells, causing damage to the brain, liver, kidneys and other organs. And symptoms of MMA may include vomiting, floppy muscles and excessive fatigue. And if left undiagnosed, it can be fatal. And this is the thing about MMA. Like, if you diagnose it early and you change the baby's diet,

it's a condition that you're never going to cure, but it is a condition that can be managed. But obviously, it shows up very early in childhood, and unfortunately, children that have it can die before they're diagnosed. And it looks like a lot of other things. It does, yes. Babies sleep all the time anyway. So, get this.

The Ontario Liberals elected Bonnie Crombie as their new leader. Bonnie who? I just sent you a profile. Her first act as leader, asking donors for a million bucks for her salary.

That's excessive. She's a big carbon tax supporter. Oh yeah. Check out her record as mayor. Oh, get out of here. She even increased taxes in this economy. Yeah, higher taxes,

carbon taxes. She sounds expensive. Bonnie Crombie and the Ontario Liberals. They just don't get it. That'll cost you. A message from the Ontario PC Party. You don't believe in ghosts? I get it.

Lots of people don't. I didn't either, until I came face to face with them. Ever since that moment, hauntings, spirits, and the unexplained have consumed my entire life. I'm Nadine Bailey. I've been a ghost tour guide for the past 20 years. I've taken people along with me into the shadows, uncovering the macabre tales that linger in the darkness, and inside some of the most haunted houses, hospitals, prisons, and more. Join me every week on my podcast, Haunted Canada, as we journey through terrifying and bone-chilling stories of the unexplained. Search for Haunted Canada on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you find your favourite podcasts. But it had the prosecutors worried. Had baby Ryan had the same condition? But Ryan's blood had been tested at two separate labs using two different techniques.

One lab had used gas chromatography and the other, normal chromatography. More on that later, when I promise I will have understood it. But both labs had found the same thing, ethylene glycol. And all the medical professionals agreed there was absolutely no way that MMA could cause high levels of ethylene glycol in the blood. Because again, remember, yes, MMA causes the buildup of toxins in the body, but ethylene glycol is not one of them. So even if baby Ryan had had MMA, it was irrelevant.

He died of antifreeze poisoning. And when you put that together with the calcium oxalate crystals in his brain, the fact that ethylene glycol was found on the baby bottle, and Patricia really didn't help herself when she told the social worker that she didn't care that Ryan was dead on the phone, and Patricia Stalling's attorney did not produce any experts to challenge the lab results or even offer an alternative explanation. They offer no alternative explanation for how there could have been ethylene glycol in Ryan's body. And I understand because either you poisoned him or you didn't. Like he wasn't left in anybody else's care. Like we said, he's four months old. That's way too young to like be a toddler and accidentally drink something he shouldn't have done. So I get that maybe they couldn't think

of anything else to say, but her defence say nothing to offer an alternative. They just sit there while the prosecution is like, well, you did it. And look, and look, and look, and look. Everything was stacked against her. Yeah, slam dunk. And it truly, truly went exactly how you thought. After 10 hours of deliberation on 31st of January 1991, the jury announced a verdict of guilty and Patricia Stallings was sentenced to life in prison with no chance of parole. Her husband David collapsed in the courtroom. He and all of Patricia's friends and family remained absolutely convinced that she did not harm Ryan and David wasn't about to give up. And he actually managed to get hold of a producer who worked on the hit TV series, Unsolved Mysteries. And they actually agreed to run an episode on Patricia and Ryan's

story, which aired way, way back in May 1991. Doesn't waste much time, does our Dave, does it? No. David, like, really, he is the fucking MVP of this because if he had like sat back so much of what's about to happen would never have happened because one of the many people sitting at home watching that particular episode of Unsolved Mysteries was Dr. William Sly. Dr. Sly was a highly regarded geneticist and pediatrician and he also just so happened to be the chairman of the Department of Biochemistry at St. Louis University, where one of Ryan's blood tests had been carried out. Dr. Sly was also somewhat of an expert on inherited metabolic disorders, and he was suspicious.

After a little digging, Dr. Sly found out that a colleague of his, Dr. Shoemaker, had managed to save a sample of Ryan's blood, the same sample that had been used to convict Patricia. Because remember, St. Louis University was one of the places that did the original blood test, so they have some of it left over on file, if you will. So when Dr Sly and Dr Shoemaker tested this sample again, they found the presence of a different chemical that had been completely ignored in the original lab test. Instead of ethylene glycol, they found propionic acid. Propionic acid hadn't been cited by any of the labs that had examined Ryan's blood. So the two

men wanted to understand how this had happened. So, and I love this bit, this like fucking science Columbo. They sent out 10 samples spiked with propionic acid. So it's just propionic acid to various different labs across the country. And three of them came back testing positive for ethylene glycol and the propionic acid had been completely missed. And they obviously know what it actually is because they spiked it. So propionic acid is close to ethylene glycol, like chemically speaking. It's like one or two carbon compounds differently, but then also one or two carbon compounds can like make a world of difference. The important thing is it's not the same. It is not the same. And the tests that were carried out, so gas chromatography and regular chromatography should have picked up on that. So it was a mystery as to why these labs were getting it wrong. If they were done correctly,

and if the results had been analysed properly, that mistake would not and should not have been made, is what Dr. Sly and Dr. Shoemaker were saying. Using these findings, Robert Ritter, Patricia's new attorney, appealed for a new trial on the basis that her previous attorney did not mount a proper defence. Even prosecutors agreed that this new information needed to be properly considered. So the defence sought the input of another outside expert, Dr. Piero Ronaldo, a metabolic disease expert at Yale. And Dr. Ronaldo examined all of the data and just couldn't believe how low the quality of work done by both of the lab teams had been, especially in a case where the death penalty was on the table. The next day, the state dropped all charges against Patricia Stallings, and it was

concluded that Ryan had died of complications related to his undiagnosed MMA. Heartbreakingly, it seems that the inaccurate lab results saying that he had ethylene glycol poisoning had led doctors to administer the wrong treatment. It was almost certainly the ethanol IV that they had given baby Ryan to counteract the ethylene glycol poisoning that didn't exist that had killed him. And this same ethanol had probably led to the crystals in Ryan's brain too. It's just so tragic, isn't it? It's just like this idea that that is not what was wrong with him. And because these lab results were done so badly, they poisoned a four-year-old with an IV of ethanol. And then they created the crystals in the brain that they then used to

convict his mother, who hadn't done anything. And there was obviously other evidence. So let's take a look at that. There was, of course, the bottle that Patricia had used to feed baby Ryan on that sixth supervised visit. If you'll remember, they found trace amounts of ethylene glycol in that, even after it had been washed. Well, the reason they found trace amounts of ethylene glycol was probably down to the fact that the bottle had been washed. Well, the reason they found trace amounts of ethylene glycol was probably down to the fact that the bottle had been washed. The detergent used had most likely left traces of ethylene glycol in the bottle. So when it was tested, it looked like everything lined up. It's unbelievable.

It's just like, how could this have happened? So the other thing that is left outstanding, I guess, that's worth discussing, that was absolutely used against Patricia in the courtroom was the issue about her having form for child abuse. When they talk about her first child being taken away from and on the verge of developing frostbite because at that point in her life Patricia had found herself a very young, very single, very homeless mother trying hard to care for an infant with basically no money. She was essentially homeless so that child was also essentially homeless so of course that child had frostbite and malnutrition. So yeah it's just like all of these unbelievable things aligning to

convict this woman, who thankfully they didn't put her to death before they found out what had actually happened. And the reason we said at the start that it was such a turning point in her life unknowingly, because she went to Cardinal Glennon instead of St. Louis is because the minute DJ was taken to St. Louis, they immediately diagnosed him with what was actually going on. And so it's very hard to say that if Ryan hadn't been taken where she had intended to take him, that none of this would have ever happened. So Patricia, having spent two years in prison for a murder that never even happened, sued the absolute fuck out of everybody. Well, you would, wouldn't you?

I fucking would. I'd sue you all. Sue every single fucking lab, doctor, everybody who came near me with regards to that case. And little DJ of course does have MMA but like we said it is a manageable condition and thankfully because he was diagnosed early he seems to be absolutely fine which is good. And if she hadn't had had that second baby, if she hadn't been pregnant when she'd gone into prison she'd still be in prison now. So this story at least in the end had somewhat of a happy conclusion but given what we know about the cross-section of science and the criminal justice system this is absolutely not always the case. So for our next story today we are heading 10,000 miles away from Ohio to Australia, New South Wales to be precise. It was here that in the space of 10 years, four children from the Folbig family died in their sleep.

In 2003, their mother, Kathleen Folbig, was convicted of the murder of three of the children and the manslaughter of one. And Kathleen was sentenced to 25 years. At her trial, she was branded Australia's worst female serial killer. But I don't really think that that title does justice to the hate figure that Kathleen became. Serial killers aren't well-liked, naturally, unless you're one of those weirdos that runs those magazines. But I think it is safe to say that a mother who had killed four of her children would be hated and reviled far more than Jeffrey Dahmer. To this day, 19 years later, Kathleen still maintains her innocence. And in the last few

years, more than 150 scientists and medical experts raised serious doubts about her conviction, and even signed a petition calling on the governor of New South Wales to pardon Kathleen and release her immediately. But still, Kathleen is in prison. To understand why, let's go back to the beginning. Kathleen had a turbulent childhood, so she was ecstatic when soon after finishing high school, she met and married a very nice man, Craig Gibson Folbig. Kathleen told everybody that all she wanted was a happy family of her own, to make up for never having had one growing up. Baby Caleb was born on the 1st of February 1989.

Kathleen and Craig were overjoyed, but tragically, Caleb only lived for 19 days. Kathleen had found him, in his cot, unresponsive, and it was ruled as a case of SIDS. SIDS, of course, being Sudden Infant Death Syndrome, or, as it's also known, cot death. And SIDS is the sudden, being Sudden Infant Death Syndrome, or as it's also known, cot death. And SIDS is the sudden, unexpected and unexplained death of an apparently healthy baby. And obviously, we've all heard of SIDS, we've all heard of cot death, but I didn't know how common or uncommon it was.

So if you look it up, according to the NHS, here in the UK, around 200 babies die suddenly and unexpectedly every year. And it seems to be about 130 or so in Australia. So that's about one in every 3,000 live births. So it's not a huge number considering how many babies are born every single year. It does seem to be quite rare. After Caleb's death, Kathleen and Craig conceived again. And on the 3rd of June 1990, baby Patrick joined the family. Four months later, however, Kathleen found Patrick in his cot, not breathing. The

paramedics arrived and were able to revive Patrick, but he was diagnosed with brain damage and a seizure disorder. When Patrick was eight months old, Kathleen went to check on him while he was napping and again found him not breathing. This time there was nothing anyone could do. Baby Patrick died. His death was ruled to have been due to a blocked airway caused by an epileptic seizure. In 1992 Kathleen had her third baby, Sarah, and everyone saw what a wonderful, attentive and caring mother she was. Friends even noted that she would never leave Sarah with anyone else. And to those around her it made sense. Obviously Kathleen was scared of something happening to another one of her babies.

Then, tragically, in August 1993, Sarah, who was then 10 months old, was found lifeless in her cot. She couldn't be resuscitated and was pronounced dead soon after. Once again, it was ruled as a case of SIDS. The following year, along came Kathleen and Craig's fourth baby, Laura. Everyone in the family was terrified. They just couldn't handle another heartbreaking, gut-wrenching loss. So when Laura turned one, it was the first time they'd all got to celebrate a first birthday. It was an enormous deal. And it also came with a huge amount of relief, because almost all cases of SIDS occur in the baby's first year.

It's like over 90%, over like 95% of cases of SIDS occur within the first 12 months. So for them, you can understand why they feel like we've reached a landmark now. Yeah. Beyond which hopefully baby Laura is going to be fine. So by the 1st of March 1999, when Laura was 20 months old, everyone's concerns had faded to a mere whisper. And that day, Kathleen took Laura to the gym and strapped her into the car seat. The little girl fell asleep on the way home.

Kathleen, keen not to wake her, carried her daughter to bed when they got home. Laura was fast asleep. Kathleen checked on her 20 minutes later or so, and to her horror, she realised that Laura wasn't breathing. An ambulance came, but Laura died. Laura's death was confusing. She was far too old to die of SIDS, and the autopsy revealed that she had myocarditis,

which is heart inflammation, which was most likely caused by a viral infection. Kathleen and Craig said that Laura had had cold symptoms before she died, but with not enough to go on, the cause of Laura's death was ruled as undetermined, and the police were suspicious now. And so was the GP who had attended the scene. He'd gone to them and raised his concerns. If you follow what's called Meadows Law, one sudden infant death is a tragedy,

two is suspicious, and three is murder until proven otherwise. So the police began to take a closer look. But they knew it would be hard. None of the children had poison in their systems and in cases where the mother smothers a baby, there is basically zero hard evidence. Then a few days later, after Laura's death, the police got a strange call from Craig Folbig, Kathleen's husband. Craig told investigators that he had found some diaries of Kathleen's that had set off alarm bells for him, and when he handed them over to the police, they could hardly believe it.

There, in black and white, in Kathleen's own handwriting, they found a series of bizarre diary entries. About baby Laura, Kathleen had written, I yelled at her so angrily that it scared her. She hasn't stopped crying. Got so bad I nearly purposefully dropped her on the floor and left her. She hasn't stopped crying. Got so bad I nearly purposefully dropped her on the floor and left her. I restrained myself enough to put her on the floor and walk away. Went to my room and left her to cry. Was gone probably only five minutes but it seemed like a lifetime. I feel like the

worst mother on this earth. Scared that she'll leave me now like Sarah did. I knew I was short tempered and cruel sometimes to her and she left with a bit of help. Again about Laura, Kathleen had written three months before the baby's death. She's a fairly good-natured baby, thank goodness. It will save her from the fate of her siblings. I think she was warned. With Sarah, all I wanted was for her to shut up. And one day she did. And in another diary entry, Kathleen seems to compare her two daughters.

Obviously Laura's still alive, but Sarah by this point is of course already dead. And it's important to note, just in case it wasn't obvious from the earlier timeline, none of the children were ever alive at the same time. But this is what Kathleen wrote. Looking at the video, Sarah was boyish looking. Laura has definite feminine features. They're chalk and cheese. And truthfully, just as well.

Wouldn't have handled another one like Sarah. She, meaning Laura, saved her life by being different. Kathleen continued with odd statements like this that seemed to signify a guilty conscience, like this one. That will be the day to lock me up and throw away the key. Something I'm sure will happen one day. And the paragraphs that to the police spelled out a motive included entries from the weeks before Laura's death. I'm tired all the time. I want to do nothing but sleep. It's not Craig, it's me. Plus, we don't get to go out to dinner or dancing

together anymore. There isn't much. Well, there's no romance between us anymore. It's all let's make money and raise Laura. We've forgotten ourselves in the process. Sad how that happens. One of my problems is that I've lost me again. I'm just Mrs. Craig Folbig. Now I'm just Laura's mother as well. Where's Kath gone? A person in her own right who needs to have writing lessons, but probably better if I don't. Then no one, not even me, will be able to read this when I'm gone. Harvard is the oldest and richest university in America. But when a social media-fueled fight over Harvard and its new president broke out last fall,

that was no protection. Claudian Gay is now gone. We've exposed the DEI regime and there's much more to come. This is The Harvard Plan, a special series from the Boston Globe and WNYC's On The Media. To listen, subscribe to On The Media wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Jake Warren, and in our first season of Finding, I set out on a very personal quest to find the woman who saved my mom's life. You can listen to Finding Natasha right now exclusively on Wondery Plus. In season two, I found myself caught up in a new journey to help

someone I've never even met. But a couple of years ago, I came across a social media post by a person named Loti. It read in part, three years ago today that I attempted to jump off this bridge, but this wasn't my time to go. A gentleman named Andy saved my life. I still haven't found him. This is a story that I came across purely by chance, but it instantly moved me, and it's taken me to a place where I've had to consider some deeper issues around mental health.

This is season two of Finding, and this time, if all goes to plan, we'll be finding Andy. You can listen to Finding Andy and Finding Natasha Okay, let's talk about the diary entries. Because they have no hard evidence. They have absolutely no hard evidence. What they have is the diary entries and the fact that four babies are dead dead they don't sound great when you're in the context of four children being dead in 10 years no they don't sound great but i think there's not a lot in there that are not things that i've heard most new mothers say and also she's dealing with an incredible amount of

grief at the same time. If we say that she didn't do it. Yes, if we assume that she didn't do it. She's dealing with three dead babies. Yeah. And a new baby. Not that far apart. No.

And I think this is never, ever brought up. She never seems to be diagnosed with it. But I feel like there's also definitely elements there of like some sort of postpartum depression. Yeah. Like there's also definitely elements there of like some sort of postpartum depression. Yeah, I mean, I wouldn't, I don't even necessarily think that even needs to be there because babies are fucking annoying. Oh, definitely. I think that like, yeah. It's incredibly hard work. And if she didn't do it, she's under a huge amount of stress and huge amounts of grief.

And also everyone watching her to see if another baby dies. That is a huge amount of pressure to be under. And I think we'd all write stuff down if we thought people were never going to read it. Absolutely. That's the key thing. I'm not saying that diaries never reveal things. Obviously, if you look back at the Casey Anthony case, there's no denying that there are things in there that seem incredibly, you know, incredibly suspect. And I'm not saying with things like her writing with a little bit of help that Sarah left. But there is no confession in the diaries. There isn't a confession and there isn't anything definitive at all that I could see.

But that doesn't matter because these entries, along with the other circumstantial evidence, like the fact that Kathleen was always alone with each baby when they died, and I think this one is crucial, purely the improbability of four babies dying suddenly in one family. All of those things together, the police felt that they had more than enough for a conviction. And they were right. Kathleen Folbig's trial kicked off in 2003, and the prosecution lined up their expert medical witnesses. And the jury was told that there was roughly one in a trillion chance of four deaths like this occurring in one family. That's a big number. And in fact, the prosecution

even stated to the jury that they didn't know of a single case anywhere in the world where three or more babies had died suddenly of natural causes within one family. So obviously the jury hearing things like this, being confronted with the diary entries they were shown, and the fact that her own husband, Craig Folbig, testified against Kathleen, saying that she often lost her temper with the children. Kathleen Folbig was found guilty of murdering her children, Patrick, Sarah and Laura, and of the manslaughter of her first son, Caleb. And on the 24th of October 2003, she was sentenced to 40 years in prison with a non-parole period of 30 years. This was later reduced to 25. So Kathleen won't be eligible for parole until 2028. She's currently sat in Clarence Correctional Centre and with a conviction for murdering her

own babies, you can imagine that her time in prison has been anything but easy. She actually was in another prison called Silverwater and she had been for years. And in January last year, or New Year's Eve actually, sorry, last year, she had to be moved to Clarence after she took a severe beating from other inmates. They don't like it if you murdered your kids. No, specifically they don't like that, especially in a women's prison. Absolutely. Kathleen continued to protest her innocence from behind bars, but for 12 years, basically nothing happened.

And that's despite the fact that at trial, an expert witness for the prosecution had told the court that they didn't know of a single family in the world where three or more babies had died suddenly of natural causes. When in fact, there were at least eight other families known to have had the same tragedy occur in other countries. So why didn't Kathleen's defence bring that up? It really does seem like Kathleen had a very poor defence team and they didn't really challenge much at all. The prosecution only had circumstantial evidence to go on. They could have had a good crack at it, but they didn't. And we've got examples, just in case you think I'm being unfair. So the prosecution don't have to prove a motive, but there were three ideas floated by the prosecution at trial. Number one, the idea

that Kathleen was massively inconvenienced by her children. Number two, that she lost her temper with the kids and ended up killing them. Number three, Munchausen by proxy, which if you know anything about Gypsy Rose, you will know is the condition where a caregiver harms or kills those in their care for attention and sympathy for themselves. So let's talk about the inconvenience one, number one. You could say that a few lines about losing a sense of herself and losing the romance in her marriage might indicate that she was inconvenienced by her children. But I've quite literally had every single new mother I've ever met say exactly the same thing. Yeah, this is the thing, that the prosecution really used the diary to point out motive. And like you said, they don't have to prove a motive, but it does help with the narrative in court.

When you're talking to the jury, if you can say why something so bad happened, and they're really like, it's the inconvenience. Look, she's talking about how she never goes out dancing with her husband anymore, but it's like, that's a far cry from killing your children, right? And if she felt so inconveniencedienced why would she keep having children this is the thing this isn't the 1920s right she could have not had more children she has children almost year after year as soon as the last one has died if it was was inconvenience, why would she do that? She could have easily tricked Craig.

If Craig was the one who was like, I want to have children, she could have easily tricked him into not having more children. So that one doesn't really make sense to me. That motive doesn't make much sense to me. So although they don't have to prove it in trial, we might as well try to discover what the motivation could have been. So what about losing her temper? The second point that the prosecution pointed out. There are, of course, diary entries that do point to times when Kathleen

became angry with the children. Craig says this too. But there are also plenty of diary entries that the police and her defence ignored, in which Kathleen desperately wrote about how she was trying to be a better mother and how she was trying to learn to cope better with each baby's crying fits. I think, I don't have a child, I haven't even spent a lot of time near a baby in a very, very long time, but they cry a lot. And I think that people, especially new mothers who are completely fucking exhausted, have varying levels of ability to cope with that level of stress. And I think that Kathleen struggled with that. And she writes about that in her diary, but she also wrote about how she was trying to be better.

But that's all ignored. And it all seems incredibly normal to me. And I think that also the other thing that is sort of missed out, again, what the fuck are her defence doing? The children didn't bear any marks of things like shaken baby syndrome or any injuries. So if it was her losing her temper with them firstly does that happen four times you four times kill your kids because you're angry and also where are the physical indications of her losing her temper you don't

lose your temper and then well maybe do you lose your temper and then smother your baby to death when they're asleep it feels like something that happens in the moment. I mean, yeah, possibly. I think I would, yeah, I find it difficult to believe that if it was like a snap loss of temper, there would be no marks on the children at all. So if I were to be convinced that Kathleen Folbig did indeed murder her four children, then I would say that the best guess as to her motivation would be reason number three,

that of Munchausen syndrome by proxy, which does on the face of it explain four child deaths in one family. Much more, I think, than anger or inconvenience. I think I agree with you there. And also, given the fact that the profile of a person with Munchausen by proxy is typically of someone who has had dismissive, indifferent, or absent parents, Kathleen, as we'll go on to see, does fit that profile. But this is my issue with the Munchausen by proxy, right? Usually it's a more prolonged thing. Typically they don't go in for the kill immediately because the death is the end result after a long campaign of illness and sympathy being withdrawn from people. That's why

often with Munchausen by proxy, what you see is many, many years often of that child being incredibly sick. Death happens sometimes by accident because the caregiver has gone too far. Yeah, like the payoff for them is taking them to the hospital or like doing a charity fundraiser or like, and none of that happens. And that's why I think having a baby is a difficult process right to put it mildly so i just don't think kathleen would quote unquote kill the golden goose that quickly if she is milking it for sympathy right in the most cold way that we can put munchausen by proxy and also the other thing is we know that people who have munchausen

syndrome by proxy they are doing it for the attention. If that were the case, I would expect to see a diary filled with entries by Kathleen all about all of the attention she was getting. I actually don't even think she would have been talking about the children because I don't think that would have been important to her. She would have been talking about how Craig was now giving her more attention, how the neighbours were giving her attention. She doesn't write about any of that

because I don't think that was her motivation. We're not saying that none of the diary entries are a bit off, but let's put them into context. Kathleen had a very unstable childhood, and her personality needs to be considered to make more sense of the strange and seemingly hateful statements that she wrote. Kathleen grew up in a volatile home, and her parents were both alcoholics who fought violently on a daily basis.

And then one day, when little Kathleen was just three, her dad, Thomas Britton, stabbed her mum, Kathleen Donovan, to death. He stabbed her 24 times on a public footpath, after yet another blazing row. And Kathleen was put into foster care. She was placed with a nice enough family, but when her new foster parents had a baby of their own, Kathleen was slightly neglected. And on her 16th birthday, for some reason, her foster parents decided to tell her that she wasn't even adopted, just fostered. Oh, and that her dad had murdered her mum.

And that shattered Kathleen's view of herself and the world. It left her in an incredibly lonely place. Kathleen Volbig is a person who doesn't like herself very much. She blames herself for everything. She views all of her actions as bad. She constantly sees herself through an incredibly negative lens. So saying things like it was her fault that the babies had died just isn't the smoking gun confession that it was perhaps made to seem to be. And others agreed that Kathleen Folbig's conviction was an unsafe one. And on the 10th of June 2015, the New South Wales governor received a petition for review of convictions based on forensic

pathology findings. Three years later in 2018, an inquiry into such convictions was finally opened. When Kathleen had been convicted way back in 2003, genetic testing was still very much in its infancy. But now, there was so much more that scientists could discover. And honestly, what they did was incredible. A team from the Victorian Clinical Genetics Service. Genetics detective. Science man.

That's what these people are. That's their psychic. These are the people that I want if I ever get convicted of a murder. Because basically they came along and sequenced the entire genomes of Sarah and Laura from blood samples taken from their heel prick cards that were taken at birth. And they found that the two girls had the same mutation as their mother, Kathleen, in the CALM2 gene, known as variant G114R.

Sexy. I know. I wish we had the soundboard. I can just make a cat noise again. So this gene controls how calcium is transported in and out of heart cells. And mutations in this CARM2 gene are one of the best recognized causes of sudden death in infancy and childhood. It was also

discovered that a similar mutation in two siblings in the United States had caused one of them to die of cardiac arrhythmia and another to have died of cardiac arrest. The scientists involved, the science detectives, concluded that this mutation was likely to be the cause of both Sarah and Laura's deaths. And world experts in the genetics of cardiac arrhythmias and of cardiac conditions caused by calm genes also publicly endorsed this conclusion. The peer-reviewed findings, co-authored by 27 scientists from seven different countries, were also published in a world-leading paper by Oxford University, stating the mutation had a 90 to 95% chance of causing potentially fatal disease. The scientists

also said that the two boys, Patrick and Caleb, who had died, had mutated genes, which had most likely caused fatal epilepsy. But in July 2019, the New South Wales District Court Chief Judge Reginald Blanche QC stated that the significant investigations had failed to find a reasonable natural explanation for any of the deaths of Caleb, Patrick, Sarah or Laura. And so Kathleen's conviction would stand. How? Nope. Yeah, they're like, look, we found these genetic mutations that 90 to 95 chance would have caused a fatality in both the daughters and he's like nah and they're like we also found that the boys probably had this condition that caused them to have fatal epileptic fits including

the fact that patrick was already diagnosed with a seizure disorder and caleb had been born blind not able to breathe properly and they're just like nah she killed him because of the diaries of a stressed out mother. I know I know. Since then scientists have continued working on Folbig's genomes and found yet more compelling evidence to point to the fact that the two boys Patrick and Caleb also had medical conditions that point towards them having died of natural causes. One of the boys had difficulty breathing due to a floppy larynx and the other had epilepsy and was blind. And during re-analysing, scientists found that the two boys had two different novel and rare variants in a gene known as BSN or bassoon for some reason. One of these genes is inherited from

the mother and the other is inherited from the father. And this bassoon gene, when defective in mice, causes early onset lethal epilepsy. And this is the problem. A lot of these gene mutations that they were dealing with within this family was so rare that they didn't have a huge amount of case studies to show that they had happened in other children. But they were able to show that most likely this is what would have happened and I repeat Patrick had a seizure disorder that was diagnosed and Caleb was born blind and not able to breathe and they're saying that's what would have happened if they had this genetic mutation oh wait we found the genetic mutation and they're just like nah she killed him so also we should come back and talk about meadows law that we mentioned earlier this idea that one infant death is a tragedy two is suspicious and three is murder unless proven otherwise this

mantra is sort of repeated endlessly ad nauseum in like every article every documentary you watch about this case i think we may be guilty of it ourselves i'm sure we've said it before i'm sure we've said it before and it wasn't until we did the research for this that I understood the issues with this particular statement. Because Meadow's Law was a theory brought up and propagated by a British paediatrician called Sir Roy Meadow. In 1977, he published some highly controversial work on Munchausen syndrome by proxy. And then Sir Roy began doing the rounds as an expert witness on trials related to cot death, implanting his sort of one, two, three mantra as he went. It seemed to make sense to most lay people serving on juries. And when you put it like that, it does feel like it makes

sense. I would feel myself nodding along if somebody said that to me. But eventually Meadows' law was discredited when the theory was shown to have been built on a foundation of just plain terrible statistics. The biggest issue being that Meadow treated each child death within a family as a wholly independent event from any other deaths. When that's just not very likely, especially when genetic factors are at play. Absolutely. And when you treat things as independent events in statistics, it makes them more and more and more implausible and improbable. So considering that the expert who took the stand at Kathleen's trial told the court that there was

a one in a trillion chance of what happened to the Fulbigs happening in real life based on Meadows' equation, that should definitely be looked into again i think in a world that we can create because i make the rules where killing babies doesn't exist right take that out of the equation what would the only other explanation be for four children dying in the same family within 10 years is genetics this is the only other thing but they're like it's impossible and the thing is i do appreciate what this, who is challenged later, in more recent years, saying you said it was a one in a trillion chance using Meadows' law that's now defunct. Do you take that back?

And she's like, yeah, I take it back now. But what did you want us to do at that time? Genetic testing wasn't available to the extent that it is now. We had to go on what was in front of us. And it just seemed inconceivable that this could have been anything other. Were you expecting us to give the benefit of the doubt to this woman sat in front of us and say that it might be some mystery illness

that none of us could even prove? And I'm like, not to the second bit, but in lieu of solid scientific, solid hard evidence, yes, you should have seen that there was reasonable doubt that this could have happened and we'll come back to this but yeah I think it isn't good enough to me to just say well what did you want us to do yeah do proper policing and do proper checks and what's the saying it's like better to let a hundred guilty men go free than one innocent man go to prison and I think it's like you can't just put people away because you can't think of a better explanation no no I think when I did jury service

which I will bang on about until I die because it was so boring I feel like I need to get something out of it the judge said on one of them they were like he said he was like if you are going to convict you need to be sure you need to be 100 sure and i i don't know whether he was just a particularly stringent judge but i feel like whenever you read stuff like this about the the jury just being like what kind of do i mean i'm like how i mean maybe i'm being naive but like i don't think you are i think that i just think i can't help but come away from this of being like, you can't just focus on the improbability of the situation. Because also there is a massive improbability that these kids would, all four of them would inherit some sort of fatal gene variant. You can't just focus on the improbability of the event because improbable things happen all the time.

That's true. And then say that because of some diary entries and the improbability of these events, that together is enough to convict a woman of four murders. That is the most shocking thing about this case is that that's all they had. And yeah, they kind of cover their arses, like I say, by saying like, well, what did you want us to do? We didn't have all this genetic testing, even though the person saying that, the expert witness, doesn't agree with these scientific findings that have been found recently probably because she doesn't want to backtrack that hard but like no one's asking you to have been like well maybe it was some mystery illness nobody can prove i'm saying you didn't have any hard evidence and therefore she should never have

been convicted do you think it would have been different if her husband hadn't testified against her i don't think that helped in the slightest, because you've got to look at it, I guess, from the jury's perspective, right? The jury can only deal with what's put in front of them. And the prosecution, although they had very slim circumstantial evidence, like the diary, the fact that she's the one that found all of them and her husband testifying against her, the defence just sat there with their fucking thumbs in their assses, like, what are they doing? But I think that the husband testifying against her would have been the nail in the coffin for Kathleen Folbig.

Also, having four dead babies and then getting dobbed in by your own husband. Yeah, he takes the diaries to the police. I know, like, it just, that would destroy you. And again, this is the thing. If Kathleen Folbig did it, she is sick in the head and she is in the right place that she should be. murdered her mother in foster care, feeling alone, feeling lonely, then has four children die and then is sent to prison as a child murderer where she gets beat up on a regular basis. I cannot think of a more tragic life that we've come across in quite a long time. And also from Craig Folbig's perspective, you know, obviously he dobs his wife in,

but he has also lost four children and is probably at a severe loss as to understanding why this keeps happening. Oh, yeah. I mean, you can't put yourself in his shoes. It would be impossible. Yeah. And I think he genuinely must have turned around and thought, why is it whenever I leave the house? Yeah. And then I come back four times and you're telling me that another one of our children is dead. It takes its toll. And I don't think Kathleen or Craig can have been expected to act reasonably. But, you know, this is because I think she didn't do it. I also don't think she did it.

But who cares what I think? You, listeners at home, I don't know what you think because I can't read your brain. But perhaps you'll be glad to hear that last month so June 2022 a new inquiry was opened after over 120 medical experts and scientists signed a petition to have Kathleen Folbig released and pardoned so we'll keep an eye on it and we'll update you when we know more the results are expected in November so fingers crossed or not depending on whether you think she did it i guess yeah i mean the new judge who is taking on this says that he is going to look at all of the new evidence with an open mind and he's going to make up his own mind that is what he said

and if she didn't do this this is such a huge huge travesty of justice is that right phrase miscarriage of justice it's a tra right phrase? Miscarriage of justice. It's a travesty and a miscarriage of justice. I don't know if we can ever know for sure, but my reasoning for why I think she didn't do it is I can't see a clear enough motive. The anger doesn't make sense. The inconvenience doesn't make sense.

And the Munchausen by proxy doesn't make sense to me. Obviously, we know that sometimes people can act irrationally and they don't need a reason to do this. But I also just feel like there's no evidence so was there a reasonable doubt that she didn't do it was there beyond a reasonable doubt that she didn't do it for me yes there would have been yeah yeah i agree so there you go guys that wasn't that wasn't a very fun one no it wasn't sorry we probably didn't make you laugh very much today i I don't know. It's just very intense and very sad. And it just made me feel like, what are all of the worst things that can happen to you?

All of your babies dying, your husband turning against you and then going to prison where somebody beats you up every day. Yeah, on top of your dad stabbing your mum to death when you're three. Bingo. That you find out on your 16th birthday. And you also find out that you're not even legally adopted. Take a drink for every horrible thing that we just said. It's like it doesn't get worse.

It just doesn't get worse. So yeah, not very fun one. Take a drink for every horrible thing that we just said. It's like it doesn't get worse. It just doesn't get worse. So yeah, not a very fun one, but there you go. That's what we decided to do this week. So I don't know. Hopefully you learned some things. Ah, fucking the whole MMA thing blew my fucking mind. Yeah, that was some good science. It's just terrifying.

So yeah, I hope what this teaches us, it's not us specifically, the world, is that yes great science is a very important part of our criminal justice system poor science can get in the fucking bin because those tests were dog shit yeah the propionic acid one so i don't know it's scary so what we're saying is don't trust science ever unless it says what you want it to no that's not what we're saying we're saying something else you decide

but that is it guys if you would like some more red-handed content if you'd like maybe a palette cleanser after this horrible episode then come hang out with us on Under the Duvet which is of course the official red-handed after party exclusively available on Patreon and also loads of other content that we do there too

well exactly so we'll see you every day of the fucking week because that's what we do. That's what we do now. We're chained to these things. Goodbye. Bye. Hi, I'm Lindsey Graham, the host of Wondery Show American Scandal. We bring to light some of the biggest controversies in U.S. history. Presidential lies, environmental disasters, corporate fraud. In our latest series, NASA embarks on an ambitious program to reinvent space exploration

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