RedHanded - Episode 273 - The Delphi Murders: The Man in the Woods - Part 2

Episode Date: November 10, 2022

On 28 October 2022, in a move that shocked absolutely everyone, investigators in Indiana arrested 50 year old Richard Allen for the murders of Abby Williams and Libby German. In this episode (that underwent a frantic rewrite in light of these recent developments), Suruthi and Hannah discuss the arrest of Allen, the personality profile of the Delphi killer and what we do know about the crime scene - plus the unbelievable catfishing twist that threw us all… Become a patron: Patreon Order a copy of the book here (US & Canada): Order on Wellesley Books Order on Amazon.com Order a copy of the book here (UK, Ireland, Europe, NZ, Aus): Order on Amazon.co.uk Order on Foyles Follow us on social media: Instagram Twitter Visit our website: Website Sources available on redhandedpodcast.com See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to Red Handed early and ad-free. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. They say Hollywood is where dreams are made. A seductive city where many flock to get rich, be adored, and capture America's heart. But when the spotlight turns off, fame, fortune, and lives can disappear in an instant. Follow Hollywood and Crime, The Cotton Club Murder on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Saruti.

I'm Hannah. And welcome to Red Handed. We're in a studio that's not our own studio because some bastard booked it but we're fine we're moving on with happiness and positivity and you can do so too if you go on to youtube because as you know when you lovely christian soldiers voted for us to win first place gold listeners choice at the british podcast last year, we promised that we would jump out of a plane and film it. And we did.

And that video is now on our YouTube channel. So if you want to see my face skin flapping in the wind, you can take yourself over to YouTube. We'll link it in the episode description below. It was quite literally the worst day of my life and I've got a dead parent. So go and witness that for yourself. It's something. You won't be disappointed. Thank you again for and witness that for yourself. It's something. You won't be disappointed.

Thank you again for everyone who voted for us and enjoy your prize. Exactly. It's the last one you're ever getting because you can't be trusted, evidently. But with that being said, everything out of the way, any other business, AOB?

No, we're back off the road. We are back off the road. Slept in my own bed, I think for four nights in a row now, which is a good thing. Slightly sprained ankle over here so i'm quite slow but um and it's so much better than it was but i'm not not a hundred percent but yeah it was uh i sprained it on our last night of tour which is the best time for it to happen but sirius had to drag me across edinburgh with one unfunctioning leg and two suitcases to get on the train we made it my arms were ripped the next day

so you know i bet you've got that got that post-tour pump on absolutely but that's it that's it other than that uh fire fire alarm car alarm went off in my car park at four o'clock this morning and it did not stop until half past six oh no well i'm so glad you made it feeling fresh and we can do this absolutely horrific beast of a case. I'm going to slowly, with no segue, segue us into the episode. Okay, great. I trust you. Because we've got a lot. So this is part two of our Delphi series.

Now, it goes without saying that if you haven't yet listened to part one, you will be massively confused. So go and do that now. Now, I know that there have been some very, very recent developments in this case, including the arrest on Friday the 28th of October, so just like a couple of weeks ago, of 50-year-old Richard Allen, a Delphi resident. This is the first arrest that has ever been made in this case, since Abby and Libby were murdered almost six years ago. And while the police over the years have had multiple suspects,

people that they have pursued hard and seemingly had decent evidence against, this guy, Richard Allen, came out of absolutely nowhere. Even until a few weeks ago, the police seemed convinced that it was another man and the evidence there seemed compelling. But Richard Allen, as far as I can tell, he was not someone that was on anyone's list who knew this case. And so this episode, when all of that information came to light last week, needed a pretty severe rewrite in light of this new character. So today we will talk to you about the new arrest, who Richard Allen is, and a few of the other suspects. Because although Richard Allen has been arrested, we can't say for sure that he acted alone. Now we have a lot to get through today and while we have done our best to get through the facts on this one, please do strap in for tons of speculation

and guesswork too because it's unavoidable. So let's get into it. In the original second version of this episode that Sruti Bala furiously worked on several trains and planes across Europe, we were going to talk to you about the eyewitnesses who helped the police to create the two sketches of Bridge Guy that we discussed last week. They are freely available. You can go and look at them. But since the arrest, we're more and more convinced that the sketches are pretty meaningless. Firstly, as we discussed last week, they look completely different to each other. They are very obviously two different people. And between them, they look like over half of the men in Carroll County. And I've seen so many people on the internet, like, mocking up those sketches to look like Richard Allen.

Particularly the Justin Timberlake looking one. Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. And they just, like, draw a goatee on him. And they're like, if you cover the hair and put a goatee on him, it looks exactly like him. And I'm like, if you shade him in brown, he looks like me. It could be anybody. It could literally be anybody. Just like the sketches can get in the bin.

Like, I just don't think they're relevant. And these sketches are even more irrelevant when you consider the fact that after a nationwide hunt, the man who has been arrested was found just down the road in Delphi itself. And while we don't know that Richard Allen is Bridge Guy, many people on the internet do seem to think that he does look a lot like the first sketch, and maybe he does. But the fact is, those sketches were hung up all over the town of Delphi, including in the local CVS, where Richard Allen worked as a pharmacy technician,

dealing with locals face-to-face every day. And seemingly no one made the connection. And this next bit gave us goosebumps. Apparently, and this has been confirmed, Allen processed pictures for Libby's family at the CVS after she was killed. And when the family came to pick them up, he handed the photographs to them and didn't even charge them. I hate that. Like he worked on the like pharmacy checkout and after Libby's been murdered they take rolls of film there presumably with libby on them to like print old pictures of her and he fucking checks them through it's horrific

this case is so like a 10 part sky crime drama if i have ever seen one it's got red herrings it's got plot twists. It makes no sense. And then it turns out to be the guy that you least suspected who just works in the pharmacy in town. I mean, allegedly. Allegedly, allegedly. You know, in the olden days where you had to take your photographs to Boots to get developed and you were convinced that nobody would be bothered about what was on them.

Untrue. Yeah, very clearly. A friend of a friend worked at, I think it must have been, it was Boots where you used to go. Yeah, very clearly. A friend of a friend worked at, I think it must have been, it was Boots where you used to go. Yeah, must have been there. And he would tell everyone if there was a photograph

of someone's mum naked or something. And he would show it around everyone. So we weren't safe then and we're not safe now. Now, like I said, he may not be the man in the sketches. And that's not because we're saying that the police are wrong

and they've arrested a totally innocent man, but because at the press conference they held on Monday the 31st of October 2022, investigators repeatedly stated that this investigation was not over and that this case is not closed. So this has led some people to say that maybe he's not Bridge Guy, maybe Bridge Guy is somebody else he was working with. Now, if you listen to this presser, much like the entire case, it was very weird. They actually arrested Richard Allen on the 26th of October, which was the Wednesday, but they only released that information to everybody on the 28th of October. And then they didn't release anything else. They just stated that there would be an official press conference the following Monday. So we all waited for some answers. But on Monday, no such luck. The conference was very odd. Doug Carter, Chief

Superintendent for Indiana State Police, Tobe Lazenby, Carroll County Sheriff, and the prosecutor, Nick McLelland, all spoke but said very little. Today is not a day to celebrate, but the arrest of Richard M. Allen of Delphi on two counts of murder is sure a major step in leading to the conclusion of this long-term and complex investigation. I am proud to report to you that today, actually last Friday, was the day, and an arrest has been made. We are going to continue a very methodical and committed approach to ensure that if any other

person had any involvement in these murders in any way that person or persons will be held accountable. While I know you are all expecting final details today concerning this arrest, today is not that day. Today is not that day. This investigation is far from complete and we will not jeopardize its integrity by releasing or discussing documents or information before the appropriate time. Prosecutor Nick McClellan, of course, will share additional information about what we can and cannot say and also explain to you why the probable cause affidavit is temporarily sealed by the court and not available. And by the way, he has been a tremendous, tremendous asset to this team. I am yet again asking you for your patience and please your understanding while our system

of due process works. Also remember that all persons arrested are presumed innocent. Please continue offering tips that you would like to share. The many avenues to report will remain open and will be available to all. Please continue doing that. Pulling in today, I wasn't really sure what emotion I would experience. But peace came over me. And I didn't expect that to happen. And I hope all of you,

with all the different responsibilities you have from around the planet today, have felt some of that as well. I think what we all have experienced proves that together there is nothing we cannot do. I would now like to introduce to you my friend and the Carroll County Sheriff, Tom Ledzeby, for his remarks. I believe in a God of justice and righteousness. to you, my friend and the Carroll County Sheriff, Tom Lidzebee, for his remarks. I believe in a God of justice and righteousness. Today, I believe that same God has provided us with justice for Abby and Libby. As Sheriff of Carroll County, Indiana, I want to publicly and sincerely thank each individual who played a role in helping us during this five-and-a-half-year investigation. Whether it was in an investigative capacity, providing tips, cards or letters of suggestions or encouragement, phone calls, and thousands of other countless

ways of communicating. I earnestly thank those who prayed for this moment in time. We now move forward through the Indiana criminal justice system, allowing the system to provide its due diligence and process in providing that justice which is owed, Abby and Libby, their families, and this community. Welcome, everybody. My name is Nicholas McLuhan. I'm the Carroll County Prosecutor. And there are many dates in a lifetime that you're going to remember.

The date your children are born, the date you're married, the date you buy a first house, the date Abby and Libby went missing. One of those dates was last Friday, October 28, 2022. At that time, we had gathered evidence to formulate a PC that was submitted to the court, and the judge did find probable cause for an arrest of Richard Allen. He's been charged with two counts of murder for the murder of Abigail Williams and Liberty German. This investigation is still very ongoing. We're keeping the tip line open, the tip email open. We encourage everybody to continue to call in tips, not only about Richard Allen, but about any other person that you may have. For that reason and for the nature of this case, the probable cause and the

charging information has been sealed by the court. I've been very clear to everybody that per the court order, we cannot talk about the evidence that's in the probable cause or the evidence that's in the charging information. That will become evident to you at some point and it will be released, but right now is not that day. Today's about Abby and Libby, focusing on them. Mr. Allen has had his initial hearing. He's in a preliminary plea of not guilty. The matter has been set for a pretrial on January 13th at 9 a.m. 2023 and a trial date of March 20th, 2023 at 9 a.m.

He is presumed innocent. We will have an opportunity and day in court when we can present the evidence that we have against him. But until that day, he is presumed innocent. Usually after an arrest like this, you'd expect authorities to be focused on only one thing, the trial and a conviction. Sometimes they even say we aren't looking for anyone else in connection to the murders. We've got our guy to really show that it is all over and they've done their job. But that's not what they say here. They actually ask for people to keep sending in their tips. And as usually happens when you ask people to do that, tips have been flooding in ever since. So people are theorising that the police could be working on the basis that

Richard Allen did not act alone. And maybe they are, we don't know. We know very little about anything that they're up to because almost everything linked to this arrest has been sealed, which is a highly unusual step. The probable cause affidavit, the charging information and Allen's first hearing have all been sealed by the court. This is very strange. And I didn't realise how strange this was, but I have been listening to many a podcast run by people like prosecutors who know what they're talking about. They said that definitely in the state of Indiana,

the probable cause affidavit is a public document required by law when a charge has been made to be released to the public. And this is to ensure due process for the defendant. And that hasn't been done here. And I think that is very, very unusual. The police are saying it's to protect the integrity of the case when they take it to court. But I think the key thing to say here is that transparency with cases like this is always key. You have to give your defendant due process. And it does make it slightly concerning because could this come back to bite them in the ass when they go to trial with Richard

Allen claiming that he wasn't given due process or something like that? Nobody wants a man who's guilty of this crime to get away on a technicality. So basically what it means, because we do not have the probable cause affidavit or the charging information, is that we do not have the probable cause affidavit or the charging information is that we do not know why the police have arrested Richard Allen, like what evidence actually led them to him. All we know is that whatever it is, it's been looked at by a judge who issued an arrest warrant and it's been looked at by a prosecutor. So this prosecutor would have been thinking about more than just probable cause. The prosecutor would have been thinking, is there enough evidence here to enable me to convince a jury of 12 people that this man is guilty of double child homicide beyond a reasonable doubt? And the answer was apparently yes. And another reason they might have

sealed it all up is that they could be anticipating another arrest. Or at the very least, they think that there is a possibility that someone else out there was involved. And it could also be that they suspect Richard Allen of being involved in other murders, and that would make sense, given what we know, which is not a huge deal, but given what we do know, it would be astonishing if this was this killer's first rodeo. If it was Richard Allen, he's 50 now. He would have been in his mid-40s when the murders happened. Who just kills two girls in broad daylight like this for the first time at the age of 45? Doesn't happen. We've never seen it. But as far as we can tell, Allen's criminal history consists of only two speeding tickets and a seatbelt violation. Yeah, that's obviously not

even criminal history. So it's like the only thing he has in his background is that yeah that's it he's squeaky clean i guess not wearing a seat belt would be the only seat belt violation i can think of he's not like he's not wearing a seat belt okay got it that doesn't mean he hasn't done anything obviously it just means that he's only been caught for driving too fast and not wearing a seat belt and he's not been caught for anything else. But I would be highly surprised if there's nothing there. And the fact that he has no criminal record to speak of would also explain why this case has never got any hits on CODIS, which is the DNA database. Richard Allen's DNA wouldn't be in the system.

They don't swab you for not wearing a seatbelt. So that was another dead end. So what did we get out of the press conference on Monday? A lot of people were very upset with the press conference. They felt like, why did they even bother to do this press conference if they were just going to come out there and tell us they weren't going to tell us anything? I was watching you watch it, looking extremely confused and frustrated. I was just like, I wasn't expecting huge revelations. I wasn't expecting them to come out and tell us everything. But I was just like, I wasn't expecting huge revelations. I wasn't expecting them to come out

and tell us everything. Yeah. But I was expecting more than we got. And if they didn't want to give us more than we got, then why not just do a press release?

It seemed like a bit of a weird thing to do. A bit farcical. But what we did learn is that Richard Allen had been arrested and charged with the murders

of Libby and Abby. And when I heard this, I was like, okay, cool. They definitely therefore think that he did it. They definitely think he is the killer and not like an accomplice or something. Because in the lead up to the press conference, people were like, we don't know if he's been arrested for murder and charged for that. He could be charged with being an accomplice. This was like, he has been charged with murder. And I was like, hooray. Okay. At least we have that. But then, not exactly. Because, firstly, they charged Richard Allen with two counts of felony murder,

because Indiana has the felony murder rule in place, along with like 11 other states. So basically, to convict someone of felony murder, the state must prove that a death occurred while the defendant was committing or attempting to commit one of the following felonies. So burglary, child molestation, arson, rape, kidnapping, robbery, carjacking, drug dealing or drug manufacturing. Interesting that carjacking is one that bumps it up. Absolutely. And the idea behind the felony murder statute is that these felonies are considered so dangerous in their own right that a death could reasonably occur as the crime was taking place and that should have been foreseeable to the perpetrators. And vitally, therefore, this is the bit that's important. If a death occurs during the commission of these felonies, everyone who participated in

the underlying felony is responsible for that death and can be convicted of felony murder, whether or not they actually killed the victim themselves. So it's kind of a bit like joint enterprise here in the UK. So if you are there while somebody is commissioning a felony and it leads to a person's death, you too could be charged with felony murder. And felony murder carries the same exact sentence as murder. Also, interestingly, Indiana doesn't have degrees of murder oh really follows a very similar system to the uk where it's just murder manslaughter reckless homicide they don't have first second third so these charges further fed the theories online that since alan could be

charged with two counts of felony murder even if he was not actually the one who killed Libby and Abby, maybe there is someone still out there who could be the real killer. We don't know. We are not Mystic Meg. No, I do think that possibly people are reading too much into this. But I think what's happening here is that in the vacuum of any real information coming from the police, people are wildly speculating. So we'll cover it in case it does turn out later that there is somebody else involved. But I don't know. The more I think about it, I don't know if I'm convinced of that. So let's move on and discuss the video of Bridge Guy,

which has haunted all of our dreams since we watched it. And also what we know about the crime. And let's see if it tells us anything more about the killer. Firstly, let's get this bit out of the way. I know you're all dying to know, does the video of Bridge Guy look like Richard Allen? Yes and no. If you've watched the video, then you'll know that Bridge Guy keeps his head down for the entire clip and, well, the bit of the clip that has been made public, which is only a few seconds. But I do have to admit, when I first a picture of richard allen for the first time he did look extremely familiar like he was the face of a man whose

video we've watched millions of times now but look for the devil you'll find him maybe we're just seeing what we want to see but it is difficult not to see the similarities especially in the build i think there's something about his face that when I watched the bridge guy video I almost feel like if you were to look up it would be Richard Allen's face but again am I like am I just seeing that but I haven't felt that way about the other suspects who have been sort of had the finger pointed at them in this case but again it's like whatever because much like the sketches it's kind of neither here nor there the police haven't arrested Richard Allen because he looks like a grainy video clip shot from 65 foot away for mere seconds they certainly have much more substantial evidence and

we know that because as we said last week the actual video is what 43 seconds long and we have four yeah and i'm not convinced that bridge guy's face is more clear in the rest of the video footage that is available to the police anyway. Because remember, Libby is shooting him, like filming him when he's quite far away from them. When he gets closer, she puts her phone in her pocket. So I think there's just audio when he's closer. So I think if they had a clearer picture of his face, they would have found him sooner. I don't think that the video is what nailed Richard Allen. I think it's just people now are comparing whether it looks like him. And maybe Richard Allen is the same height as Bridge Guy was reported to be. So Bridge Guy,

if you remember, he was reported to be between like 5'6 and 5'8, so not a hugely tall man. Richard Allen, I've seen conflicting messages that some people saying he's 5'4, some people saying he's 5'6, but he's definitely shorter than average. And like you said, the build fits with Bridge Guy. So ignoring who Bridge Guy looks like, what does the video tell us about what kind of person he might be? Well, for a start, Bridge Guy looks incredibly calm in the video. He's walking towards Libby and Abby, and he certainly already knows what he's planning to do but he's just got his hands in his pockets walking along looking relaxed he's also walking across a bridge that is so incredibly dodgy like we said a lot of the planks in that bridge are missing or rotted it's you have to watch where you're yeah it's crazy dangerous absolutely but even as he's

doing this he looks incredibly at ease. I think this really suggests a man who knows that bridge and knows the area well. Now, most killers, as we know, tend to kill in areas that they feel comfortable in. So it stands to reason that the killer would be a local. And the fact that bridge guy walks towards the girls and traps them on the south side of the bridge, the side that we told you last week is a dead end. Again, it really seems to point to a man who knew the area very well. Other theories have also been that whoever it was, whoever Bridge Guy was, he must have driven to the trails. They are,

you know, somewhat outside of town. Probably no one's just walking along roads and highways to get there. And there was a theory that whoever it was could possibly have been a resident of like the more rural sort of farmland surrounding the Delphi area. So maybe he wasn't specifically from the town and that's why nobody was able to immediately recognise who this person was. If he had come from the surrounding farmland, the theory was that his car was parked somewhere nearby and maybe he wasn't trying to murder the girls in the woods that day, but rather he was trying to abduct them. He was trying to get them down the hill into the woods and out to his vehicle. And the two theories of where the vehicle could have been parked were the old CPS DPS building, where the police said we're looking for the driver of a vehicle that was parked there from nine till

six, or there's an old cemetery that is much closer to the woods where the girls were found and you could park there so there are a lot of theories that he was trying to get them to an isolated farmhouse and it was actually an abduction that went wrong he lost control of them in a fit of rage he ends up killing them in the woods i don't know again we don't have the theory to back that up. It's just speculation. But if we do presume that it is a sexually motivated murder, which it probably is considering the girl's ages and the fact that he has incredibly predatory behaviour, it probably was sexual, in which case it would make sense that he would try to have as much time with them as he possibly could. But again, speculation, speculation, speculation. In terms of his personality, all you can really see in the video is the calm way in which he approaches the girls and the way he speaks to them.

Guys down the hill, screams of confidence. And so does the entire crime. Firstly, it's a huge risk to take two girls in broad daylight. And while the bridge and the trails aren't exactly famous, they are popular with locals, especially on that day because there was no school. Bridge Guy was willing to abduct these two girls, given the extremely high probability that he would be spotted. So a man like that is a man who's done this before and is supremely confident. And this confidence shows as well in the fact that he went after children. If you're going after kids on a hiking trail, how many of them are going to be

out there alone? Especially if you are a preferential paedophile who's got a very specific age range and you're looking for, let's say, girls 12 to 14. That's the age range in which Abby and Libby fit. There's not going to be many 12 to 14 year old girls who were out there on their own that day. So that means he was already mentally prepared to see through a double abduction and homicide at the very least. Also Abby and Libby were far too young to have driven themselves out to the trails so Bridge Guy would have known that someone was coming to pick them up. For all he knew, the girls' families were on the trails with them. Or did he know? Had he been stalking them? Did he know that they were on their own? Or was

he just lucky and willing to take a huge risk? Whatever way you cut it, this crime doesn't look like it was committed by a first-timer. So what do we know about Richard Allen so far? And does he match this profile of the killer and like of the crime that we've just discussed? Well, like we said at the start, he was definitely a Delphi local. He'd lived in that town for about 16 years now. He had a nice house on a nice middle class street. He had a good job at the local CVS. He's married with kids and people online have dug up like his wife's Facebook page and looked at all the pictures and videos of him that she's posted. They seem to be totally ordinary, completely normal, and they seem perfectly happy. Everyone who knows Richard Allen, who has spoken out since his arrest, has said the same exact thing about him. They've all said that they are shocked because there was quote nothing special about him but i think that's exactly how richard allen if he is guilty and we don't know that managed to fly under everyone's radar for all of these years it was like in the in jennifer pammer she was like i'm just ordinary i'm just i'm just a normal person that's

such a weird thing to say about anyone it's like the opposite of she lit up a room. Do you know what I mean? But yeah, I guess it's just, he's just this normal guy who works at the pharmacy. You know, his neighbors were like, he doesn't have many people over. Sometimes we just see them loading their groceries in and out. Like they all said that he wasn't really the chatty one. They knew his wife much more, but he just like kept himself to himself, went to work every day, had some kids, had a wife and lived his life. And like nothing extraordinary at all about him. Just like the everyman. Though some people are definitely surprised that if Richard Allen is guilty, why did he never leave Delphi?

If his whole deal is everything is completely normal, the easiest thing he could have done to draw attention to himself is leave. Yeah, I think that's exactly what it is. I think he figured, how am I going to explain it to anybody why we are selling our house? Why I'm leaving a good job? Why are we moving to a different state? It wouldn't make any sense. And I think he probably thought that it would draw more attention to him if he did this. Now it's very likely that immediately after the murders that Richard Allen would have been scared. There's no way that he wouldn't have thought, what if someone's seen me? What if I get caught? Especially when the police released the video footage and the audio and things like that. He must have been panicking. But as the years went by

and no one even so much as suspected him, he wasn't on anybody's radar like we said. He probably relaxed and figured that he was safe. Harvard is the oldest and richest university in America. But when a social media-fueled fight over Harvard and its new president broke out last fall, that was no protection. Claudine Gay is now gone. We've exposed the DEI regime, and there's much more to come.

This is The Harvard Plan, a special series from the Boston Globe and WNYC's On the Media. To listen, subscribe to On the Media wherever you get your podcasts. lives can disappear in an instant. When TV producer Roy Radin was found dead in a canyon near L.A. in 1983, there were many questions surrounding his death. The last person seen with him was Lainey Jacobs, a seductive cocaine dealer who desperately wanted to be part of the Hollywood elite. Together, they were trying to break into the movie industry. But things took a dark turn when a million dollars worth of cocaine and cash went missing. From Wondery comes a new season

of the hit show Hollywood and Crime, The Cotton Club Murder. Follow Hollywood and Crime, The Cotton Club Murder on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge all episodes of The Cotton Club Murder early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus. Richard Allen also regularly visited the trails and the Monon High Bridge itself. He was also a hunter, and a hunter means a firearms license.

And many people, us included, do wonder if maybe he used a gun to abduct the girls. Perhaps he said guys to get them to look at him. Maybe he had a gun pointed at them and then he ordered them down the hill. That's the thing that I feel like makes the most sense is like if you also listen to the clip that we're about to play of guys down the hill you can tell that it's been edited. You can tell that they've cut something out between guys and down the hill. Because in the original, when they play just down the hill, there's a huge crackling bit before.

You don't hear guys that close to it. So I suspect he says, guys, they look at him. And I think he's pointing a gun or a knife or some sort of weapon at them. And then I think the girls react. And they've cut that bit out. And then it's down the hill that does make more sense so as we heard there there's a tonal shift from guys to the authoritative sounding down the hill.

Yeah, the guys is very like, guys. Yeah, it's like, look up. Yeah. Attention. Don't be scared. Like, hey, guys, down the hill. Oh, fuck off. I hate it. He's commanding, calm, confident. And all of those things are indicative of a man who is in control, who has experience and who has done all of this before. Another key question for which we can only offer yet more speculation and not any real answers is why did Libby start recording Bridge Guy in the first place? We know from the two-second clip that we've seen that she starts recording him

when he is still quite far away from them, about 65 foot. The guy's intro happens when he is much closer. So why was she already filming him when he was so far away? Yeah, because he's got his face down at that point. He doesn't look like he's engaging with them when he is that far away, but she's already filming him. And why? Why is she doing that? Maybe they had met him on the trail before they got on the bridge. The eyewitness who created one of the Bridge Guy sketches was a 16-year-old girl who was on the trails that same day. She described to police that she ran into this man that she described and that he had scared her. Did Libby and Abby have a similar experience? And when they saw him again walking towards them on the bridge, knowing that they had no way to get past him and no way off the bridge, they began to worry.

And that's when Libby started to film him. I hate that bit so much because it's the idea of like them knowing when he says, guys, I can just imagine them looking up and it's this guy who's like pointing something at them. And that feeling of they can't run back. There's no trail behind them and they can't get off this bridge without jumping into a river that's 75 feet down. It's just that moment of I wish I was anywhere else but here and that intense fear that they must have felt that is the most haunting part of this entire case for me is how helpless they were in that moment. So the next question, did the killer know that the girls were out there? So was this a planned abduction murder or was it a crime of opportunity? Again, we can't say for

sure. And my opinion on this has changed multiple times. At first, I was convinced that these were very much murders of opportunity, that this guy's there, he sees these girls, he looks around, he takes a second and he's like, I think there isn't anybody who can see me, I'm going to do this. And the idea that the girls were there to meet someone didn't immediately make too much sense to me. I was actually looking back at my notes from when I first started the research and I've written, like there to meet somebody makes no sense. Because if you think about it on that day, they didn't even know for sure that they would get a ride there. They had to beg Kelsey, Libby's older sister, to give them a lift. And at first she said no.

And they couldn't have got there on their own if no one would have given them a lift. And also, if they were there to meet somebody, they were only given two hours before Libby's dad was going to come pick them up. Like, what? Like, it doesn't make much sense. But over the last year, as the police linked a new suspect to the murders, not Richard Allen, the previous suspect, and they linked this person very publicly, my mind did change, especially after I read through his 194-page police interview transcript. But we'll come back to that later. The point is that now, after the arrest of a totally

different person, Richard Allen, I don't know anymore. I don't know. But on that note, let's move on to talk about the other suspects that have been linked to this case, some of them very publicly, as Saru just said. Because although Richard Allen has now been arrested, the first suspect that we're going to discuss gave us a lot of valuable information about the scene of the crime. And like we said at the start, we don't know for sure that these suspects aren't connected to Richard Allen. But before we do delve into the suspect list, I want to make clear that we are only discussing suspects that have been talked about publicly by the police. And I want to remind everyone that an arrest or suspicion is not a conviction. And while you may think any one of the men we're about to discuss is the killer, everyone is presumed innocent until proven guilty.

We're not asking anyone to form some sort of mob. So let's start with the OG suspect in this case, Ron Logan. 77-year-old retiree Logan owned the land that Libby and Abby's bodies were found on. Because you remember from libby and abby's bodies were found on because you remember from last week we told you their bodies were found on private property and to be honest he became like a huge suspect for everybody especially on the internet and i was like from the start that was like it seems a bit ridiculous like what he just killed these girls on his own land and then what just like ran back into his house and left them there yeah like i don't know this never really made much sense to me and you've got to think that in all the time

that he knew that hundreds of people were looking for abby and libby and what he just left them to be found about a thousand feet from his front door because he's got a lot of land ron logan and his house is on that land and they were found about a thousand feet from his front door because he's got a lot of land, Ron Logan, and his house is on that land. And they were found about a thousand feet from his front door. Why wouldn't he have moved them? He had hours between the killings and before the police search even started to dispose of the bodies. Why would you just leave them there? It makes no sense. But nonsensical it may be, people really honed in on Ron Logan after the Bridge Guy still photograph was released because when Logan

was interviewed by the media on the day that the girls were found he was wearing what looked like very similar clothing to what Bridge Guy is wearing on the day of the murders people make such a big deal of this but he's literally just wearing a blue jacket and blue jeans and a hat in rural India yeah he's wearing like a kind of olivey khaki color hat which people are like looks like bridge guys whatever yeah rich guys got on his head and i'm like it's just a blue jacket and jeans and then it got a lot worse for ron logan because apparently he asked his cousin to give him an alibi for the afternoon that the girls were killed and this when i read that i was like oh ron ron all right and it was like for the exact time right he said that he wanted his relative to tell police if they asked that he had been with ron at an aquarium shop in lafayette between

2 p.m until 5 p.m on the 13th of February 2017. And importantly, he had asked this cousin for this alibi before the girls' bodies were found. So that sounds pretty damning. The FBI quickly landed a search warrant in March 2017 and they searched Ron Logan's entire property. The arrest warrant, which was obtained by the Murder Sheet podcast, is extremely interesting. It revealed a lot of information about the murders.

And this was the first time we got any kind of information like this. And this is what I was breadcrumbing you guys all about last week. So let's get into it. This is what we learned from that arrest warrant. The warrant clearly stated, and this is a quote, a large amount of blood was lost by the victims at the crime scene. Because of the nature of the wounds, it is nearly certain that the perpetrator would have gotten blood on his person slash clothing. And this is the first time we knew this.

So this warrant was made public in May 2022. And this was the first time we learned anything about the way in which the girls had died. And I think that with blood loss like this this when they're saying there was a significant amount of blood lost at the crime scene i think you can probably assume that they were bludgeoned or stabbed to death i think a gunshot probably gunshot wouldn't have done that no and certainly neither would strangulation and so if it holds that the killer was trying to get the girls into a car for an abduction rather than a woody murder, and he lost control of them and killed them in the woods that day, does the heavy blood loss signify rage? Is that why there's overkill? Again,

we don't know that. And I think that the reason that I lean towards something having gone wrong with the killings, because again, that's just speculation, is because to me, that kind of quick, high intensity killing doesn't seem to match the calm, collected voice that we heard leading the girls down the hill. Would you be like guys down the hill to then go berserk? Yeah. And murder them in the woods? I don't know.

It felt like a man who was going to take them. But again, speculation. Also, if it was Ron Logan, how was he on TV the next day being interviewed wearing the clothes that people say make him look like Bridge Guy without any blood on them? When the warrant tells you that that person would have been caked in blood. So the redacted warrant also said the following, and this is very interesting. It said, quote, the blank of one of the victims was missing from the crime scene while the rest of their clothing was recovered. It also appears that the girls' bodies were moved and staged. Oh my God.

Yep. So whoever has done this has obviously taken a piece of clothing. I think we can assume that the blank is against speculation, but maybe underwear or something like that. And obviously this person has taken that as a souvenir. Again, that is very serial killer tratey. And the thing that's more shocking than the souvenir taking is the fact that whoever did this took the time to stage and pose the bodies after Libby and Abby were dead. Supremely confident thing to do.

It is a very confident thing to do, but it also, once again, kind of feels like it doesn't match with what's happening. So you've got this calm guy, calm, collected, confident guy, leads the girls down into the woods. If we assume that he lost control of them and ended up killing them, overkilling them because of rage, but then he's not fleeing the crime scene, worried that people might have seen him, because Ron Logan's house is about a a thousand feet away there are other people's houses down there if somebody had looked out of one of those back windows they could have seen what was happening

but he doesn't give a shit about that he stays and he poses the bodies i don't know it's very contradictory some speculate including the the FBI in this warrant, that the posing and the staging of the bodies was so that the killer could take pictures of Abby and Libby. And develop them at CBS. Well, quite. But the FBI found nothing of note at Ron Logan's house or on his land. It turned out that Logan had asked his cousin for an alibi

because he had a driving ban against him at the time and he had illegally driven to the dump that day. And this is why it is so important to let all the information come out before people lose their minds. Yes, when you hear that he asked for an alibi before the girls were found for that exact time, everyone's like, he fucking did it. But there's so many pieces of that puzzle you don't know. Like the fact that he's a drunk driver who had a million bans against him and he was just like I took a bunch of rubbish to the tip I need you to say that I was with you in Lafayette but it's this is what I mean this is why it is such like a crime drama case yeah oh my god yeah and when this piece of evidence that Logan had illegally driven whilst on a driving ban to drop some stuff off at the dump, he went back to prison.

And do you know what the really, like, fucked up thing is? So many news stations reported the stuff about the alibi, right? They reported about him asking for an alibi, all of this stuff. When it turned out to be what it actually was, nobody clarified that. Even in recent reports I have seen, they do not follow up on why Ron Logan was cleared. He was at the fucking dump. I know there's still people who think that he's involved, but I personally don't. Ron Logan died in 2020.

He was never arrested and he was certainly never charged. But as Saruja said, a lot of people do point the finger of justice in his direction. So let's now move on to a more recent discovery. The HLM podcast that we mentioned last week, Down the Hill, in that they interview a man named Robert Ives, who was a prosecutor who was linked with this case. And he told them that at the scene of the murders, they found two or three signatures and he also described the scene itself as odd again this is the first time we're hearing anything about anything signatures two or three unique signatures is what he says

he also says when he's pushed on this in the podcast quote it wasn't your normal a person was killed here sort of scene that's all i can say it was unique unusual odd what the fuck it makes me think of is it in a hannibal where they put antlers on all of the bodies or is that true detective that's there's definitely or is it the crosshitch killer there's definitely no there's definitely a killer in the Hannibal series yes that puts antlers on on the girls yeah and this is the thing again in light of any more information people are running wild with speculation about what that could possibly mean so let's talk about it a signature is obviously like a certain thing that a killer does in the

commission of a crime or before the crime or after the crime that is unnecessary to the crime itself, right? This could be anything from mutilation, dismemberment, insertion of foreign objects, redressing. The posing could be one of the signatures, we just don't know. But if we say that the posing slash staging is one of the signatures, it means that there were still at least two others that we don't know what they are. Now, I understand why the police kept this under wraps, because if this person is a serial killer, and I would say that he is, whoever did this, even if he hasn't killed the kill count of three which again i find shocking that he wouldn't have because people speculate say it's not richard allen say

it is a more justin timberlake-esque looking second sketch younger man that also makes no sense because the confidence of this killer is not somebody a 17 18 19 year old has got and also we know that as the victims get younger, the perpetrator's age gets older. This is not the crime of a young man. So if this person has killed before, or if they kill again, you want to keep that signature under wraps

so that he doesn't change his signature so that you can link him to other crimes if he commits them. Or you can match him to other crimes if they're in the database. And also you want to keep things under wraps so that if you do catch somebody and he knows about these signatures, you can ensure you've got the right person. Ives also said on the HLN podcast, which if you haven't listened to it, do, that quote,

there was a lot of physical evidence at the crime scene, but it's probably not what people are thinking. It's so vague. And when we hear him say that, we're thinking DNA, surely. But the police have never clearly revealed if they have DNA evidence or not. They hint that they do, but the quality and the quantity of what they have is up for debate. Especially considering that they have had very solid suspects over the years but they have never seemed to rule them in or out with dna evidence yeah they have a lot of suspects on their sort of you know lineup of suspects for a long time so if you've got dna you would just be able to clear

them more quickly than that and they never do that and so it went on after logan there was a bit of a lull in the case. Things went a bit quiet. The authorities were doing press conferences on the anniversary of the girls' deaths for a few years, and then those stopped as well. And the case looked like it would just go cold. And then suddenly, on the 7th of December 2021,

Indiana State Police released this late-night YouTube video. My name is Sergeant Jeremy Piers, the public information officer with Indiana State Police released this late night YouTube video. My name is Sergeant Jeremy Pierce, the public information officer with Indiana State Police at Lafayette Post. While investigating the murders of Abigail Williams and Liberty German, detectives with the Carroll County Sheriff's Office and the Indiana State Police have uncovered an online profile named Anthony Schatz. This profile was being used from 2016 to 2017 on social media applications including but not limited to Snapchat and Instagram. The fictitious Anthony Schatz profile used images of a known male model and portrayed himself as being extremely wealthy and owning numerous sports cars. The creator of the fictitious profile used this

information while communicating with juvenile females to solicit nude images, obtain their address, and attempt to meet with them. Pictured on your screen, you'll see images of the known male model and images of the fictitious profile sent to the underage females. We have already identified the male in these images that were used by Anthony Schatz. The male in the photo is not the person of interest in the investigation. Detectives are seeking information about the person who created the Anthony Schatz profile. Investigators would like any individual who communicated, met, or attempted to meet with Anthony Schatz, how you communicated with the profile, what social media applications the account used, and if Anthony Schatz attempted to meet you or obtain your address. If you have saved images or conversations with Anthony

Schatz's profile, please attach them to your email. Again, if you have any information, please contact law enforcement by utilizing the tip email, abbyandlibbytip at C-A-C-O-S-H-R-F dot com. Thank you. What the fuck? When this came out, when I saw this for the first time, I was blown away. Imagine, there's been basically almost like years of silence at this point. Nothing has been done. People are worried that the case is going cold. Then suddenly they just drop that video and

suddenly they now seem to be connecting the murders of Abby and Libby with an online catfish account. And for a while before this video came out, there had been a theory doing the rounds on the internet that maybe the girls had been groomed by like some sort of internet predator or that maybe someone had seen Libby's snapchats of her and Abby at the Monon High Bridge and had come there and killed them. That had always been a theory. But most people, including me, dismissed this idea completely. It just seemed like too far-fetched because again they weren't there for that long. It seemed too crazy that somebody would just see that and be like oh I'm gonna go get those girls until we discovered that Libby had actually been communicating with the Anthony Schott's profile on Instagram and Snapchat.

So who was Anthony Schott's? Well the guy in the, so the guy who's being used as the catfish face of the catfish, who is obviously a very attractive young man. We'll post his picture on our socials. We're not going to name him because that guy had absolutely nothing to do with any of this. He's a male model. And I found out he's also a fucking police officer. Oh, how handy. I know. And he has come out and been quite pissed off with the police because they never told him that his picture was being used.

They just released that video with his face in it. Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah. So it obviously was not him who was talking to these underage girls through the Anthony Schott's account. That person was 27-year-old Kegan Klein. Now, Kegan Klein is a name that anyone who knows

this case will be all too familiar with. And just to be clear, it's not Keegan, even though it's spelt like Keegan, it's Kegan, because apparently his dad named him after his favourite strip club, Keg-en-Klein. Like Keg-en-Klein. What does Klein mean? I don't want to know. Kill me. I hate it. Oh, you know, sometimes, you know, in France, there's like a huge list of names that you are not allowed to name your child. I always thought that that was a bit overarching, but now I'm all, I'm all for it. We need a list. Yeah. And although Alan has now been arrested, it's still absolutely vital that we talk about Kagan, because he's a sick fuck and the connection to Libby is unbelievable. But also because we're not convinced that he had nothing to do with these murders. And why do we think that? Well,

lots of reasons that we are going to tell you about right now. But the main one is that because Kegan Klein was arrested and charged in Miami County, Indiana in August 2020 on different charges, which we will come to in one moment. But that aside, he was very recently taken into the custody of the Indiana State Police to be questioned about the Delphi case. Within a couple of weeks of that happening, police were back in Delphi, searching Richard Allen's house. And two weeks after speaking to Keg and Klein, they made their first arrest in almost six years.

A lot of people are saying that that is just too big of a coincidence to ignore. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. I don't know. Yeah, because the whole thing of the Indiana State Police going and getting Keg and Klein from the custody of Miami County was in and of itself a huge deal. When that happened, it was so top secret. We still don't even know the days that they took him out of that prison.

It's also an incredibly difficult thing to do. To get a prisoner who is in the custody of another jurisdiction, to get custody of that person and move them. It seems like they moved him to a military base, I read, which again, it's like, why this level of secrecy around this man? They took him out for an unknown number of days. It could have been up to five days they were questioning him. And then very soon after Indiana State Police get their hands on Kegan Klein from Miami County,

they then are back in Delphi arresting Richard Allen. Again, it could be a coincidence. We don't know. But I think it's a valid reason to suspect that maybe Klein has something to do with this. And before we get to that, we have to head back to the 25th of February, 2017. Less than two weeks after the murders, there was a huge FBI search carried out on a house in the nearby town of Peru, Indiana. Apparently, the search was triggered by a tip, and it must have been something solid for the FBI to have got a warrant that quickly.

The search went on for hours, and neighbours watched as box after box was carried out of the house. But in the end, the FBI announced that the people living there had been cleared. They had nothing to do with the murders of Abby and Libby, and that everyone else should leave them alone. So people mostly forgot about it. But guess whose house it was? It was the Klein residence, where Kegan lived with his strip club-loving dad, Tony. And it was only revealed much later that on that day, way, way back in February 2017,

the FBI had actually found an astonishing amount of child abuse material at the Klein house. But the FBI cleared them of being involved in the Delphi case and didn't make any arrests that day. This bit boggles my mind more than anything. I do not understand this bit because Kegan Klein would not be arrested for three years after that search, even after they found literally device after device after device, hard drive upon hard drive filled with child abuse images and videos. But they left him out on the streets for the next three years. And also, this is just, it just gets better and better.

Because after the search was conducted, Kegan Klein was interviewed. He wasn't arrested, but he was interviewed. And in that interview that was carried out 12 days after the Delphi murders, Kegan Klein admitted to running the fake Anthony Schott's profile on Instagram and Snapchat. And police confiscated every single device of his. So they would have known that Kegan was communicating with Libby. And if they didn't know that, how did they not know that?

So they finally arrest him in August 2020. And they charged him with 30 felony counts, including possession of child pornography, child exploitation, obstruction of justice and synthetic ID deception. Interesting. Now, the entire police interview, all 194 pages of it, was accidentally released by authorities on like an official court or police website or something, but like on a back page that you would never come across. It's like they accidentally put it on a web page that was public when I don't think they meant to. Uh-huh. It was supposed to be on the intranet.

Precisely. And it ended up very much on the internet. And the Murder Sheet podcast found it. And they found it completely by chance. And they obviously downloaded the entire thing. Yeah, wow. And then the police realised what happened and they took it down but it was too late now i would highly recommend checking out the murder sheet podcast if you want more on the delphi case we are going to keep it to a two-parter for now if and when there are more developments we'll come back to a part three later but they are super investigative and they have done so many episodes on this case it's absolutely. And it's thanks to them that I have read the entire Keg and Klein interview, and it is very eye-opening.

I'm Jake Warren, and in our first season of Finding, I set out on a very personal quest to find the woman who saved my mum's life. You can listen to Finding Natasha right now exclusively on Wondery Plus. In season two, I found myself caught up in a new journey to help someone I've never even met. But a couple of years ago, I came across a social media post by a person named Loti. It read in part, Three years ago today that I attempted to jump off this bridge,

but this wasn't my time to go. A gentleman named Andy saved my life. I still haven't found him. This is a story that I came across purely by chance but it instantly moved me and it's taken me to a place where I've had to consider some deeper issues around mental health. This is season two of Finding and this time if all goes to plan we'll be finding Andy. You can listen to Finding Andy and Finding Natasha exclusively and ad-free on Wondery Plus. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify.

Hi, I'm Lindsey Graham, the host of Wondery Show American Scandal. We bring to life some of the biggest controversies in U.S. history. Presidential lies, environmental disasters, corporate fraud. In our latest series, NASA embarks on an ambitious program to reinvent space exploration with the launch of its first reusable vehicle, the Space Shuttle. And in 1985, they announced they're sending teacher Krista McAuliffe into space aboard the Space Shuttle Challenger, along with six other astronauts. But less than two minutes after liftoff, the Challenger explodes. And in the tragedy's aftermath, investigators uncover a series of preventable failures by NASA and its contractors that led to the disaster.

Follow American Scandal on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. Experience all episodes ad-free and be the first to binge the newest season only on Wondery+. You can join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Start your free trial today. But before we get into it, there's something else you need to know about Kegan Klein. And that's that he's a big fucking liar. Pathological. I probably would be too if my name was Kegan. He lies constantly about very easily provable facts. He can't keep his story straight at all. And his alibi for the day of the murders is riddled with enormous holes. But let's talk about the things that we do know. Key takeaways from Kegan Klein's 194 page interview

with the police. Klein operated the Anthony Schott's profile on Instagram and Snapchat from 2016 to 2017. He used it to pretend to be a hot rich model and solicit sexually explicit images and videos from minors. And in the interview, the Indiana State Police were clearly linking him and his father, Tony Klein, to the Delphi murders. It's also very obvious in the interview that police think the killer is Tony, Kagan's dad, and that they want Kagan to turn him in. Kagan also claimed that when he was first arrested, police told him that all his charges could go away if he gave them Tony, which in the US you can do. Kagan's web history revealed a man with a taste for horrific images It included disturbing sexually explicit searches involving young girls

Sandy hook bodies and bestiality We just can't get away from it, can we? No, and nor can Kagan He goes looking for it, it finds us So 27-year-old Kagan admits in the interview to being attracted to girls aged 12 to 14. This is why I'm so fine with talking about Kagan Klein, because police have made him very publicly a suspect. He is currently awaiting charges for many, many a felony. And he admits to it.

And they found fucking all these devices linked to him. He also confesses in this interview to using multiple fake accounts, including the Anthony Schott's one. He used another one named EmilyAnn45, which interestingly, EmilyAnn is his stepsister's name. So he's not trying that hard. No, he uses her picture and he uses her name to catfish girls on the internet, claiming that girls were much more likely to trust another girl. And it worked because he was very, very successful in collecting sexually explicit videos and images of minors. And it's clear that he was using these accounts not just to collect these videos and images, but also to share them with other predators. And the important

thing to know about these videos and images is sometimes they are self-generated by the children themselves, but others are of abuse being committed on minors by adults. So he's a producer, he's not a consumer. Well, he's both. He's both. Yeah, yeah. So the other thing about Kegan Klein that is interesting is that he doesn't seem to have a job when he's arrested or ever, but he does have a decent amount of money. The devices he's got, all of the stuff that's in his house, it's not cheap, right? He's not Mr. Lamborghini rich like he's pretending to be when he's Anthony Schatz, but he's doing all right. And when the police asked him where all this money had come from,

he claimed that he designed restaurant menus on his phone using Canva. Okay. Red-handed is brought to you by canva pro um he's so full of shit no one is paying you thousands of dollars for restaurant menus that you make on canva on your phone he's such a dick he's such a dickhead i think it's much more likely that this money was coming from him selling child abuse material that he was collecting i think that is more likely than people paying thousands of dollars for restaurant menus designed on camera. He's such a dickhead. And in the interview, Kagan also made the interesting claim that multiple people had access to the Anthony Schatz account, but we have no idea who or how many.

And when I first heard this, I thought this is is just Kegan lying to cover his arse. He's saying, oh, look, it's not just me. I made the account, but loads of people have got the password to it. Loads of people are using it. But police have confirmed that it is clear from the messages that a variety of people were using the account. And they can tell just by the language that's being used, the syntax of the conversations. They are saying there are multiple people clearly using that account. But we also know, despite Keggan's claims that he only spoke to Libby once,

he actually exchanged pictures with Libby and communicated with her regularly. And that includes on the day she disappeared. I mean, come on. In fact, on February the 13th, 2017, two devices were logging in and out of the Anthony Schott's Snapchat account from within the Klein house. Was it Kegan and Tony? Or was it Kegan and someone else like Richard Allen?

Initially, the police clearly think it's Tony. Mainly because in many of the chats with underage girls, Kegan asks them if they would hook up with his dad. He says stuff like, how do you feel about being with a 45-year-old? And once he asked a girl if she would come on Zoom and watch his dad masturbate. I'm upset. As far as Tony Klein goes, if his son naming habits hadn't given you any particular indication he's a real piece of shit, he's got multiple convictions for stalking women, abuse, domestic violence. He even beat up his six-year-old stepson so hard that he fractured his orbital socket.

And if you do go and check out the Murder Sheet podcast, you can listen to interviews with Tony's stepkids. They all say that Kegan was his favourite. Everyone else lived in a constant state of fear around Tony. But that doesn't make him the Delphi killer. And something that is also interesting to note, if you are considering who could have been sat with Kegan logging in and out of the Snapchat accounts, is when Kegan says to minors on the internet,

my 45-year-old dad, how do you feel about being with a 45-year-old, etc, etc. Kagan is 27. Tony Klein, therefore, his dad is a lot older than 45. But guess who is 45 or would have been back then? Richard Allen. Anyway, after the murders, Klein and his dad went to Vegas almost immediately after the Delphi killings. And when they were questioned by police as to why they had gone to Vegas, they said they had gone to get blowjobs at the Bunny Ranch. Oh no! Together. Yeah. You've seen the Louis Theroux, right?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. If you're looking to kill an hour and a half on putty shoes, go and watch, I think it's a weird weekend where Louis Theroux goes to the Bunny Ranch. To be honest, I'm sure they see father-son situations all the time. It's so fucking weird. And he basically tells the police that this was a fun trip that they had planned for a very, very long time because the insinuation was, were you running? Were you on the run after the murders had happened? but it doesn't seem like it was very much of a fun trip for kegan because while he was there he spent quite a lot of time relentlessly searching for news updates on the delphi case including listening to the audio of

bridge guy multiple times and googling can law enforcement trace IP addresses from social media? And how long does DNA last? Again, we're just like, this is so compelling. This is so compelling. He was speaking to Libby on the day that the girls were murdered. They leave to go to Vegas almost the next day. And then he's made all these fucking searches while he's been away. But when he's questioned about it, he says, I was just looking this up because it was big news it happened nearby i didn't even know that that's the girl i was talking to and he says consistently i did not know that's the girl i was speaking to but he definitely

fucking did because he googled her name specifically right it's such a load of bullshit now you could say like is he freaking out like this when he's in Vegas because he's involved or is he freaking out because he knows that it was someone linked to him and the Anthony Schott's profile and he's worried that this person having done this murder will bring him and his entire money-making system down if they get caught because I presume that Kagan created the Anthony Schott's profile he like shapes it into a profile in which there are lots of minors attached to it and then i think he sells access to other predators i think it makes a lot of sense that he would be freely googling if he was not actually there but he knows that it could bring him down that's what i think is that he thinks shit it was somebody who is in my

network and they're gonna fucking blow up my whole empire yeah or is he just a fucking weird guy and it's all just a coincidence i mean it's supremely circumstantial but it is very compelling this is circumstantial evidence is evidence and we have seen people convicted on a lot less than all of that kegan also told the police that he never spoke to anyone about libby and abby missing. But the night after the girls' bodies were found, Kagan Klein was messaging, as Anthony Schott's, one of Libby's friends. This girl asked, did you hear about Libby? To which the Anthony Schott's account replied, OMG, what happened? He already knows. He's already Googled her.

But he's pretending like he doesn't know. The girl replied, they were murdered. And Klein, pretending to be shot, said, yeah, we were supposed to meet, but she never showed up. And this is why then I wonder, if he's so worried that somebody in the network has done this and they're going to bring down his whole system, why is he saying shit like this?

Why is he saying to Libby's friend, yeah, we were supposed to meet, but she never showed up? I just don't know. When confronted with everything you just heard and everything else in the interview, Kagan just told the police that it was all a lie and he didn't remember anything. And then there is the infamous ski mask incident. The Anthony Schatz profile was talking to another minor on Instagram. One day, the girl messaged Anthony Schatz profile was talking to another minor on Instagram. One day, the girl messaged Anthony Schatz to say that her parents were out and that he should come over. Then a man wearing a black ski mask was suddenly at her window. The girl freaked out and the man ran away.

This happened on the 20th of February 2017, a week after Libby and Abby were murdered. Can it be a coincidence that something this weird and terrifying happened to another girl talking to the Anthony Shorts profile? It's just hand over fist coincidence. Like I can't, there are so many that it feels really hard to believe that it is a coincidence. It's unbelievable. This girl gives the Anthony Shorts profile her address and then suddenly a man is at the window so again this proves that somebody we don't know who ski mask man was but somebody who was using the anthony shorts profile is happy to go and physically meet these girls and if you're telling me that the ski mask guy has nothing to do with the anthony shorts profile how right how

but coming back to the interview with keagan, when asked what his end goal was with the girls that he was talking to, he said that it was strictly for the pictures and videos that they'd sent. He emphatically stated, I would never meet anyone. But again, we know that this is false. A girl has reportedly come forward saying that she met Klein in a park after talking to the Anthony Schott's profile. And apparently he became incensed when she turned up with her friend. Also, if Kegan Klein and the other people using this Anthony Schott's profile never intended on meeting any of these girls, why did almost all of the girls that they were talking to, all of the girls that Klein was catfishing, come from the area in which he lived?

That's really interesting because I've watched a lot of catfish and it is incredibly rare that it's within the same county even. It's always a cross-country situation. All of the girls that he's catfishing are from the towns around Peru, Indiana, of which Delphi is one. That is very rare. If you're only catfishing online for pictures and videos that you can get from these girls, you could have gone for girls anywhere in the world. A big deal is also made by authorities that Kegan Klein failed a polygraph test when he was asked about whether he was involved in the Delphi murders etc but like that is the least fucking interesting thing to me Kegan Klein lies all the fucking time I defy any polygraph handler to even make any sense of his

charts and also we know that polygraphs are bullshit anyway so whatever what's more interesting to me is that after Kegan Klein's first interview with the police, he was allowed to return home. Because remember, they didn't arrest him. They didn't do anything. They just let him go home, even though they found all that fucking child abuse images. And when he got home, he found his main mobile phone, because he's got multiple devices, but his main mobile phone that he used for the Anthony Schott's profile was still in

his kitchen on top of his microwave. It had been missed by the officers who had searched his house. And that night, at 9.19, Kegan Klein uninstalled Snapchat and Instagram from his phone. The next day, he deleted and uninstalled another app called Meet Me. He even re-downloaded and double-checked that everything had been deleted off his Snapchat and Instagram before uninstalling them again the next day. He then handed this phone into the police, thinking, I think,

that it would make him look good. But obviously they could see exactly what he's fucking done. He's not particularly bright, is he? He's really not a bright man. And the police also noticed, and again, this is just like, how is any of this fucking real?

They also noticed that Keg and Klein had deleted his search history specifically between the 10th and the 15th of February 2017. Two days either side of the murders. So are Kegan Klein and Richard Allen connected? We don't know. But with so many people talking and sharing and having access to the Anthony Schott's profile and the police calling Kegan Klein's Dropbox the gateway to Indiana's largest child porn ring. And that is the only thing that makes me think why they didn't arrest him as soon as they did it. Because he's got too much on everyone else. I think that it was like,

let's keep an eye on this guy. Let's let him keep running what he's doing. And that's how we're going to bring the whole system down. And also the fact that Kegan had been talking to Libby on the day she disappeared, as had maybe lots of people pretending to be Anthony Schatz. Like we said, we do not know. It just seems too much of a coincidence. It's the connection between Libby and the Anthony Schatz profile. We don't know if it's Kegan Klein, but somebody could have been talking to her. And I'm like, come on, with the schema thing, I'm just like, a group of predators had access to Libby. They would have been following her Snapchat account. They would have seen where she was.

And they all live in the local fucking area. I don't know. So could Keg and Klein have actually been physically involved in the murders of Libby and Abby? Maybe. On the day of the killings, he apparently googled the Marathon gas station in Delphi. He lived 40 minutes away. Is it another coincidence that he was looking up this particular gas station near the Monan High Bridge on the day that the girls were killed? this is the thing i'm just like yeah 40

minutes might not be a huge amount of time for americans but it's still like he was googling a gas station that is right next to the fucking bridge on the day that the girls were killed he was talking to libby that day i don't know it's so bizarre yeah i don't believe there wasn't a closer gas station and he just happens to be driving around that area why and obviously he just says it's not true some suggest that he was googling that particular gas station because maybe just maybe he was going to pick up richard allen who maybe called him after the murders maybe klein had someone else like allen doing the killing but got the photos of the murders to sell on who knows the issue with this theory is that despite his Google search,

we can't place Kegan for sure at that marathon gas station. Because the Indiana State Police sent the FBI to pick up the CCTV footage from the gas station, but they fucked it right up and basically didn't get any of the footage at all, even watch it while they were there the tapes were later wiped so we have absolutely no idea whether kegan klein was there that day or not which would be quite useful to know yeah so when they interview him 12 days after the murders they've searched his house etc they've seized his devices and they see that he's googled the marathon gas station they immediately send the fbi down there and the people at the marathon gas station are incredibly like helpful they're like, you can take the whole system, do what you need to do. And they never fucking watch it. And they never get it off the system and return it to the gas station people who, thinking

the FBI have everything they need, then delete the tapes. But with all that being said about Keg and Klein possibly being connected to Richard Allen, I do have to say that Richard Allen, if he is guilty, he is a man with no criminal history. A man who had a family, a good job. He was outwardly functional and normal, not like Keg and Clyde. People who interact with Keg and Clyde know that he is a weird guy. People who interacted with Richard Allen did not know that. And if Allen has killed before, or at least raped before or something, all the precursors we see before you see a murder, although he's fucking 45 and the Delphi murders happened, if he did it, he's definitely killed before. He has got away with whatever he has been up to for years. We

know that on average, serial killers, and I think it's not a stretch to call Richard Allen a serial killer if he is guilty of these murders, typically start killing in their mid-twenties. You telling me he sat around 20 years with nothing? No, there's something there. So would a man like that, who's clearly very careful, risk his entire life by getting involved with a man like Keg and Klein and trusting him? I don't think so. If you watch one interview with Keg and Klein, you would know if you are a man with a secret that big, you would not go anywhere near that fucker. Killers like this tend to be solo killers because they want to protect themselves, they want to be in control of everything. I don't know. But then again, this case is so crazy, literally anything could happen. I haven't got a clue. So what now? Well, Richard Allen has so far

pleaded not guilty. That's the only thing we know about his preliminary initial hearing. And a trial has been scheduled for March 2023 with a pre-trial hearing in January. I think the best thing will be if we touch back on this case with like a shorthand or something in January when we have the pre-trial hearing. Probably by then we'll also have access to the probable cause affidavit. And then I think when the trial happens in March, if it happens in March, then we'll come back with a full third part on this series. Because there is going to be a lot to say at that trial. So much of this case has been kept under wraps by the police. And I do have to give the police credit, actually.

There's never been a single fucking leak out of that place. It's been tight. I mean, apart from the document that they put on the wrong page. That was accidental uploads but um you haven't seen sort of uh the police secretly talking to uh the media or anything like that and i think it's probably because it was to protect the families and the girls we don't know how the girls were murdered still we don't know so much about libby's interaction with kegan klein if that's even involved we don't know so if there is a trial everything will come out and I'm guessing it's probably pretty bad.

So will we see a conviction? We hope so. And we obviously don't know what the police have against Alan, but it must be something pretty substantial. They had a pretty outwardly compelling case against Keg and Klein. Fuck knows that we've seen that people convicted on weight less. I feel like if you had presented that case, if that case that we just talked to you was presented in court with the right narrative by the right prosecution, Keg and Klein would be convicted. But he hasn't been. Police have never even arrested the Kleins. So for them to have arrested Alan, they must have something different and solid. It must be something like DNA or something more physical that is linking him there because all of the connections to Kagan Klein, like you

said, are very circumstantial. But I feel like with the right narrative could be enough for a conviction. But they clearly, for some reason, didn't think that it was Kagan. Because they've got something better. They've got something better against Richard Allen. And the police have conducted a thorough search of Richard Allen's property. It lasted hours. And neighbours even saw authorities digging up the garden in very specific places. Like they knew where to look. And this is the thing. Richard Allen is pleading not guilty.

So someone has told them something. So how did they get to Richard Allen after all these years? We don't know. As with cases like this, where the killer is completely unrelated to the victims, because he was, yeah, he lived in the same small town. There's been nothing I can see so far that connects Richard Allen with the two girls. So really, it's pretty amazing that they got anyone, to be perfectly honest. Now, Doug Carter, the

chief superintendent of Indiana State Police, has said that it is, quote, fascinating how they got him. So maybe it was Kagan Klein, sort of finally coming clean. Or maybe it was something like genealogy, like with the Golden State Killer. Did they finally get a hit on the DNA, not to Richard Allen, but to like a relative or something like that? We don't know. Or maybe it was somebody completely different. Some people are speculating that maybe the wife suspected all along and then finally she found something that made her call the police. We just don't know. There's also crazy theories like because in the search warrant for Ron Logan, they also say that they found hairs at the scene of the crime. And some people suspect that they were animal hairs like cat hairs that was like doing the round

somewhere and then people were suggesting that did they dig up richard allen's dead cat in his garden and were they able to match that cat's hair to the hair that was found on abby it'll be again like you don't fucking know also that is not convincing of anything because richard allen lived like half a mile from the girl's middle school. They could have stroked that cat on the way home one day. That's fucking non. Again, we do not know. We just do not know. So the only thing that I want to end this episode by saying is that because they have hidden so much of the stuff, they've hidden the probable cause affidavit, they've hidden the charging documents, etc. People on the internet are running rampant with theories

that they're stitching richard allen up that this is all a fit up right if they wanted to do that you'd have done it to fucking kegan klein there's so much fucking shit on that guy and everybody already hates him because he's a fucking child abuser why wouldn't you just have set kegan klein up for this he's already a piece of shit you've already arrested him why would you go after the random guy who works in cvs that was on nobody's radar? That makes no sense. So I do not think this is a setup. I do not think this is police corruption. I actually think they've done an incredible job because they could have fitted Keg and Klein up for this and prosecuted him probably years ago. They've had him since 2020. But I think, I'm hoping there was actually

just solid police work here. And even if it has taken five years, six years to get justice, I'm hoping that because this was so random, where Richard Allen came from, that they have something that is irrefutable and that we will see a conviction. So that is everything that we have. And basically, we are now just going to have to wait and see what comes out.

We're just going to have to wait. Fucking hell. It's so much much this case is so much and this is like such a meaty episode when we don't even know what the fuck is going on yeah so i don't know keg and klein being involved with richard allen i don't think richard allen would be that stupid if he is the killer but it's so coincidental yeah man it's crazy as you say like for a case where we don't know there is so much to say we will be keeping a beady eye on this and hopefully we'll be back well definitely with a shorthand at the beginning of the year and hopefully by halfway through 2023 we'll know absolutely so yeah just stay tuned thank you to everyone who

keeps sending me amazing like screenshots of all that they're digging up. Please do keep sending them because I'm absolutely fascinated by this case, as I know you all are. And we'll be back next year with, well, we'll be back next week with another case and we'll be back next year with more Delphi. And America, if you are listening, stay tuned. We've got something coming for you we will see you for shorthand on tuesday and right back here for full fad red-handed next week where we've it's really interesting next week actually i just went over the the script but the other day really really interesting case of the guy who put the h in dhl well there go. We'll see you for that. Bye. Bye. He was hip hop's biggest mogul, the man who redefined fame, fortune, and the music industry. The first male rapper to be honored on the Hollywood Walk of Fame, Sean Diddy Combs.

Diddy built an empire and lived a life most people only dream about. Everybody know ain't no party like a Diddy party, so. Yeah, that's what's up. But just as quickly as his empire rose, it came crashing down. Today I'm announcing the unsealing of a three-count indictment, charging Sean Combs with racketeering conspiracy, sex trafficking, interstate transportation for prostitution. I was f***ed up and I hit rock bottom, but I made no excuses. I'm disgusted. I'm so sorry. Until you're wearing an orange jumpsuit, it's not real. Now it's real.

From his meteoric rise to his shocking fall from grace, from law and crime, this is the rise and fall of Diddy. Listen to the rise and Fall of Diddy exclusively with Wondery Plus. You don't believe in ghosts? I get it. Lots of people don't. I didn't either, until I came face to face with them. Ever since that moment, hauntings, spirits, and the unexplained have consumed my entire life. I'm Nadine Bailey. I've been a ghost tour guide for the past 20 years. I've taken people along with me into the shadows, uncovering the macabre tales that linger in the darkness, and inside some of the most haunted houses, hospitals, prisons, and more. Join me every week on my podcast, Haunted Canada, as we journey through terrifying and bone-chilling stories of the unexplained.

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