RedHanded - Episode 28 - The Wests & The Cellar at Number 25 Cromwell Street - Part 2

Episode Date: January 11, 2018

This week the girls head into the infamous torture cellar at 25 Cromwell St. to uncover the horrifying truth about the Wests’ years of depravity. As body after body was found, a haunted Fred confessed to it all - but Rose stayed silent. Today hear the incredible survivor testimony that broke a nation’s heart and finally labelled Rosemary West as one of the most evil female serial killers in history.     See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to Red Handed early and ad-free. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. So, get this. The Ontario Liberals elected Bonnie Crombie as their new leader. Bonnie who? I just sent you her profile. Her first act as leader, asking donors for a million bucks for her salary. That's excessive. She's a big carbon tax supporter. Oh yeah. Check out her record as mayor. Oh, get out of here. She even increased taxes carbon tax supporter. Oh, yeah. Check out her record as mayor. Oh, get out of here.

She even increased taxes in this economy. Yeah, higher taxes, carbon taxes. She sounds expensive. Bonnie Crombie and the Ontario Liberals. They just don't get it. That'll cost you. A message from the Ontario PC Party. Get ready for Las Vegas-style action at BetMGM,

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BetMGM.com for terms and conditions. 19 plus to wager. Ontario only. Please play responsibly. If you have any questions or concerns about your gambling or someone close to you, please contact ConnexOntario at 1-866-531-2600 to speak to an advisor, free of charge. BetMGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with iGaming Ontario. I'm Saruti. I'm Hannah. And welcome to Red Handed, where today we're going to be picking up exactly where we left off last week with Fred and Rosemary West. So when we left it last week, the police had just started their excavation of

number 25 Cromwell Street in 1994. And as the police tore up the patio looking for Heather's body, Fred just laughed at them, saying, it's a family joke. You're going to have to put this all back. I'll make sure you pay for that patio to be fixed. The nerve of this man. Just how mental is he? Because he knows there's a body down there. He put them there with his own two hands. Like, he knows. So all of this yelling at the police, it's really pretty irrelevant because soon they find the bones. And almost immediately, Fred just starts confessing to his lawyer that he, just joking before, I did in fact kill Heather. And he freaked everyone out completely because he started telling them how he did it really vividly and gruesomely. And he recalled

every detail. And also what's weirder, he delivered it so matter-of-factly that it chilled everyone. And I think this is when they knew that they were dealing with a totally different beast here. Because originally, I think they just thought it was like a domestic maybe like an accident they killed her they buried her there'd be remorse afterwards now he's like oh yeah I did it whoops and after being so strongly of the other way saying no I've I haven't done anything wrong you're gonna have to pay for my house like it's such a flip of a switch and we will come on to this later on but it really does make you start to wonder how much of this balance of Fred is that he might genuinely have something wrong with him or is he just the worst person that's ever existed?

Like I'm a bit stuck now. So during the initial dig, they found three bodies under the patio and in the garden. And Fred just kept confessing. And he is super chill about the whole thing. It's like he's reading a shopping list and he tells them that it's his daughter, Heather, and a woman called Shirley Robinson, and another woman who he just said was Shirley's mate. And even though Fred was forthcoming, he kept changing his story and he'd confuse dates and names and generally just be a bit of a fucking weirdo. So the police probably

would have just completely written him off as a confessing Tom, except they were literally pulling bodies out of the ground behind his house. So it's pretty difficult to write someone off as a lunatic and a liar when you you're pulling the evidence with your own hands. But despite all his confusing statements the one thing he was consistent about was that Rose knew nothing. Rose is the total innocent in this and that she lived by the law. With three bodies now on their hands the police start digging through missing persons reports to see if they could find a match and this is when they start to see just how many young women were missing. They even bring in a profiler and he's very clear saying that if you had three bodies not all were killed at the same time but all were buried in the same place by the same person it was very unlikely that there would have been silence

in between these killings. So he said the time between these killings would have been filled with other murders. And one of the victim's skulls they dug up even had a belt tied around her face. Everything pointed to Fred being a serial killer and a sexual sadist at that. The type of killer that wouldn't stop unless he was stopped. But just how many women had he killed? That was now the question. And as I'm sure you can imagine, this turns into an absolute media circus. There's bodies being dug out of a garden in Gloucester city centre. How would you describe Gloucester to our international listeners? I've never been to Gloucester. All I know about Gloucester is, for our international listeners who want to pronounce it Gloucester,

just remember the rhyme. Dr. Foster went to Gloucester. Gloucester rhymes with Foster. That's all I know about Gloucester. Have you been to Gloucester? I feel like I probably have been to Gloucester. There's cheese, something to do with cheese. Or maybe that's Gloucestershire.

Gloucester is in Gloucestershire. No, I know, but there's a place in Gloucestershire where they roll cheese down hills or something and they like race. Oh. I'm sure. Oh. I mean, it's just a whatever. But it's not a glittering metropolis. It's like a sleepy West Country place. Yes. Yes. West Country. It's like farmland, right? It's like Tratter and Cider and Combine Harvester. You should give accent lessons. I thought that was pretty good. If you've watched Hot Fuzz, that's how they speak there.

Oh, yeah. Okay, that's good. Cool. Just like we did with Yorkshire, we're going to incite passions in Gloucestershire. Uh-oh. Anyway, so the world's reporters gathered around this tiny terraced house and watching at home was Caroline Roberts.

22 years before, when she was just a teenager, she had worked for the Wests and just about escaped with her life. Watching the news of the police tearing up that patio brought her entire ordeal at the hands of Fred and Rose West back to the surface. One night in 1972, Caroline was hitchhiking. Classic. Hashtag stop Cerriti hitchhiking.

She won't stop. I haven't hitchhiked in years. You literally text me on like a Saturday night being like, never! I'll never hitchhike again, don't worry. Caroline was hitchhiking back from Tewksbury, a town in Gloucestershire. When a car pulls up, it's the Wests. Caroline, in the interview that we watched with her, remembered that the couple seemed friendly. And as we saw with Colleen Stan, like, you're much more likely to get in a car if it's

a man and a woman. Same with the Moores murders. So Caroline gets in the car with this seemingly friendly couple and the West make friendly chat and they are clearly sizing Caroline up. They are profiling her and assessing how suitable she is for whatever their needs are. Absolutely because they were predators and such people are often the best at spotting who would make good prey and Caroline tells them she doesn't like being at home and that she needs to get away. Fucking bingo. So the West paint a picture of perfect familial bliss at theirs telling Caroline that they have three beautiful daughters and conveniently that they just happen to be looking for a nanny. Caroline jumps at the chance and takes on the job of nanny to newborn baby May, the West's middle child Heather, and Fred's daughter from a previous marriage, Anne

Marie. Don't accept a job that you are offered in the backseat of someone's car ever, even if you know the person. Just don't do it. That's very sage advice. She does accept it though. But pretty much as soon as she moves in, Caroline finds the house and the West's really fucking weird. She does accept it though. But pretty much as soon as she moves in, Caroline finds the house and the Wests really fucking weird. She was very uneasy that there were always men in the house, men who came to spend time alone with Rose. Now Rose tells her it's nothing. And she tells her she's just a masseuse and that there was nothing to worry about. Could she not have thought of a better lie? Like masseuse is code for prostitute. Everybody knows that. Like, could she not have thought of a more convincing thing that she could have been doing? What would you say, though? You're running a secret brothel, and I'm like,

hey, Hannah, what are all these random guys doing here? And why do you keep going into that room, locking the door, and then coming out a bit later looking sweaty? One by one book club. Outstanding. Good lies. You are a better liar than Rose West. But I don't know if Caroline would have believed that more considering I don't think there were any books apart from pornography magazines in this house. So it could have been a one by one pornography magazine book club. Maybe. That's how I'm going to make my millions. I think you should. Don't leave me to do this on my own though. You know, Caroline accepts this at first, surprisingly, but then Fred starts to freak her out. And this is, we just come back to classic, classic Fred. He constantly again

starts harassing her with, hey, I can do abortions. Just let me know. You need an abortion? I can sort you out. I've done loads of abortions. And the women I've done abortions for, they were so grateful they'd even offer their bodies up to me straight after how much like Donald Trump does that sound oh my god abortions I've got the best abortions I do the best abortions everyone knows it believe me it's true and also like abortion had been legal in the UK since 1967 and this is 1972 I mean this is not like Vera Drake era. Like this is, obviously, I'm sure that there was, and there still is, a lot of social stigma around it. Maybe you knew your doctor personally were too embarrassed. I'm like, backstreet abortions do happen. That's fact. But

why in God's name would you go to Red West for an abortion in 1972. They were available on the NHS. You could go and get one safely. Exactly. For free. If you know your doctor personally, get on a bus and go to the next town and get an abortion there. Like, no one was getting abortions from Fred West. Let's just all say that.

The only abortions Fred West was giving was cutting the foetuses out of the women he murdered. That's Fred West's version of abortions. Why is he... Why the obsession with abortions? Like, it's never really explained. Like, I don't... No, it's never West's version of abortions. Why is he, why the obsession with abortions? Like it's never really explained. Like I don't know. It's never explained. And it's not unusual fetish. It's not like a common thing. But anyway, let's stop talking about Fred West and abortions. Like for us, all of this abortion chat was absolutely the last straw for Caroline. So she left shortly after moving in. But if she thought she was free of

the Wests, she had another thing coming. And five weeks later, she's hitchhiking again, and in the exact same spot when, once again, the Wests pull up. They sweet talk her again, and tell her that it was all a misunderstanding. A joke, a little funny joke, that Fred hadn't meant any harm by threatening to perform an abortion on her. She wasn't even pregnant. I've got a dark sense of humour, but that's too much. How they get her back is they play on her emotions. They tell her that the children really miss her.

So Caroline gets back in the car. Caroline, don't do it. Rose gets out and sits with her in the back. How predatory is that? That is unbelievable. And as they're driving along, Fred casually just asks Caroline, have you had sex recently? That's not a, that's not a conversation starter, Fred. He just can't stop. He can't stop. can't stop he can't stop he's it's like compulsive and immediately caroline realizes that she has made an enormous mistake and this is the fucking worst bit and then fred tells rose to check as in to check if caroline has had sex

recently so rose grabbed caroline right by the crotch. And then suddenly, Rose just out of nowhere starts punching her again and again in the head. When Caroline woke up, she was then at the West's house, tied to a chair with her own scarf in the West's kitchen. And as she came to, they were wrapping parcel tape around her head. Fucking parcel tape. And she started screaming. But they just tell her to calm down. They say, we'll make you a cup of tea and we'll let you go home. And surprisingly, they did. They took off the tape, gave her a cup of tea and a fag, and she calmed down. And as soon as she was calm,

Rose started trying to kiss her. And at first, Fred just watched. Then they both start groping her. And in the interview with her that we watched, she says, they kept talking about my genitals. They were stripping her down and probing her, saying that her genitals were abnormal. But with Fred saying, horrifyingly, don't worry, I can fix them. Just the humiliation and the fear. Imagine how vulnerable you would feel in that situation.

And when they tire of this, because obviously Caroline will be getting worked up, getting upset, the fear would be ramping up, but they get tired of this. They stop. They calm her down. They let her have another cup of tea. And then just like before, they start again.

It's so chilling. They're committing an absolutely horrendous crime, torturing this girl, but they're in absolutely no hurry. They just sat in that kitchen taking tea and cigarette breaks with absolutely no fear. And it's the speed at which they do it. They're so casual, go so slowly. You know, in like horror films, it's always like the killer that walks really slowly that scares me. It's never the one that chases you. It's the one that knows

you can run as fast as you want. I don't need to because I'll kill you in the end. It's the total control over the situation that's chilling. And I think that's why this is so terrifying because it's like, oh no, you can, that's fine. We can sit together and you can do whatever you want, but I'm going to fuck you up. Like I'm going to get you. It's so much worse than like the knife wielding maniac. At least that's over quickly. It's so much worse than like the knife wielding maniac. Oh, 100%. At least that's over quickly. It's playing with your perceptions. That's what it is.

Like you never know what the next move is gonna be. And that's why it is so terrifying. Because Rose, out of nowhere, starts smothering Caroline with a pillow. And at first, Caroline said that she fought and screamed. But after a while, she just gave up and said she just wanted to let go but that's when Fred stopped it because he needs the fear and the screaming we spoke about last episode like as a sexual sadist like the thrill wears off you can't keep doing

the same things you have to step it up each time so he he needs the screaming. And the second that she's given up, it's not worth it. It's not going to get him off. So they stopped. Fred slapped Caroline to wake her up and told her, we're going to lock you in the cellar. We're going to let all of our friends have a go at you. And when we're done, we're going to kill you and bury you under the paving stones of Gloucester. There are hundreds of girls there and no one has found them and they won't you. They carry on this interrogation type situation with Caroline. They'll stop, reset, let her calm down and then they can stoke up the fear again from zero. Classic sadism. Because either the victim is going to give up, lose consciousness or become

numb to the pain. They took this like sick pleasure in just toying with her, just stringing her along. And once Caroline came to from the smothering, Fred raped her and then he cried. And you'll see this a lot with him, like he cries all the time. And Caroline said that she really felt like he was doing this to manipulate her, because again, it's kind of like the, like letting her have a cup of tea and a fag it's like it's throwing her curveball so she doesn't really know what's gonna happen next it's throwing her off constantly making her unsure absolutely and then the next step they took was by far the most surprising especially to caroline because they let her go after all of this they let her She told them, I won't tell anyone about what you've done.

But when they let her go, she went straight to the police. Good girl, Caroline. I'm so proud of Caroline because how easy would it have been? Well, not easy. Nothing about this is easy. But just go home. Forget about this. Move on.

Just drown away the pain. But she doesn't. She goes straight to the police. But the issue was that she was so traumatised by what had happened that she just wasn't strong enough to face a rape trial. So the West escaped. And unbelievably, they got away with being charged for just indecent assault. And unbelievably, they were released with just a £100 fine. And what's absolutely horrifying is that they got away with it here. And in that year, they murdered three more women that we know of. It should have stopped

here. But if you're going to be a rapist, and most learn quickly that you just can't leave a witness. I know in this case, it didn't come to anything with Caroline in the first place going to the police, but they had let Caroline go and forgotten all about her. Once again, they had escaped punishment for their crimes. But Caroline hadn't forgotten them. And she came forward when she was watching the news of the police tearing up the patio and the garden at number 25 Cromwell Street. And she told the police about what Fred had said to her about the hundreds of bodies buried under the paving stones of Gloucester. And she told them all about the rape cellar. And this cemented to police that the house at Cromwell Street was the key to this crime.

Caroline's statement also made it clear for the first time that Rose was just as involved as Fred. So she was arrested and brought in too. Once in custody, Rose totally blanked Fred. They were in front of the magistrates together. When he leant over and tried to touch her, she just pushed him him away and this was the first time they had seen each other in four months and she's just like get off me he even tried writing her a letter and he said rose it's your birthday 41 and still beautiful i love you as much now as i did when we first met it's the best thing

that's ever happened to me and rose sent him back the envelope unread, unopened. And this was torture for Fred because he had protected her and he had, to his understanding of love, he had loved her and he couldn't cope with how she was treating him now. But back to the investigation, to understand what had really happened here, the police basically have to take 25 Cromwell Street apart. They have to raze it to the ground. And the truth of the lies Fred and Rose West had lived there started to emerge. The police find the bedrooms of the house fitted with listening and recording devices.

It was like their brothel slash party slash sex slash murder house. And it was a trap to lure in the victims that they wanted they wanted young girls they kept drink and drugs on tap and it was very much an open door policy come on in it's a party but but what a fucking party like there were children living there like that's the thing that it makes me think of the suzanne kappa house yes exactly it's squalid it's absolutely like we described it in the first episode this place is squalid it's full of drugs alcohol random men pornography all of this sexual paraphernalia and all these these children are living there but their main aim of this house like you said was to go after the vulnerable girls from the local children's home. They get them drunk, drug them, tie them up,

rape them, or pimp them out to all these random men who frequented this horrendous place. It was just a big sex ring where the West would just randomly kill off any girl that they fancied. And the worst thing is everyone in town knew all about the brothel. They didn't know about the murder, but they knew about the drugs and the sex and the brothel and all of that. But if this was such an open secret, why was nothing done? You could argue, like in the theatre industry, I mean, obviously, and in film and Hollywood, but locally in London recently, all that stuff has come out about Kevin Spacey, all the stuff about Max Stafford Clarke. Everybody in the industry knew. Everybody knew. When it comes to something like this, you probably, maybe it was like a rumour of you're like, oh, well, I'm sure it's not really true. But if you knew it was true, you'd seen it. So

you probably didn't want anyone to know that you were there. Absolutely. And I think the biggest reason here, like within many of those cases, is that powerful people or people in law enforcement were involved. Look at Operation Newtree, the reason they covered up for all those MPs, for Jimmy Savile, everyone knew it was happening. But because it was, it went so deep into the roots of every institution, every powerhouse within our country, that nobody had any vested interest in starting to fling stones because everybody had something to hide and you don't want to open that can of worms, basically. I'm mixing metaphors all over

the place, but you know what I'm talking about. And in this case, it was exactly the same. The reason nothing was done was because the police were in there having sex in that brothel. They were in the upstairs brothel having sex with Rose and all these other girls, whilst the other girls were being tortured and killed in the cellar. And that cellar, if the house is squalid, I don't even know how to describe that cellar. We'll post pictures. It is disgusting. And it's horrifying because it's totally self-contained. You can even get in through the back. You can get out through the back. You wouldn't be disturbed. You don't have to go through the house. It's so convenient if you want to have a murder-rape-torture dungeon. And in the cellar, when the police went in, they found chains, they found all sorts of sexual

paraphernalia, sex toys, masses of pornography, and hooks all over the ceiling. Given the fact that they just dug three bodies up from the garden, it was clear that this was a room where dreadful things had been done. And the fact that they knew that the cellar and the garden were owned by two predatory sexual psychopaths, they knew now that there were definitely more victims. So they start their search for more victims in the cellar. Meanwhile, Fred is still being held by the police. And this is when Fred makes another startling statement. He calls his lawyer, Howard Ogden, and he confesses to a further nine killings. Well, in his written confession,

he writes, I want to confess to approximately another nine killings, including the murders of Charmaine, Rina, Lindegoff, and others to be identified. Like if you're gonna write a confession at least know their fucking names. It's possible he doesn't know how to count past signs. That's yeah maybe. So Linda Goff we haven't heard about her yet. Linda was another young woman who had been a lodger at 25 Cromwell Street. It was her last known address in 1973, which was the time that she had disappeared. And she moved in just six months after the pair had tortured Caroline.

Mrs. June Goff, her mother, had even gone to Cromwell Street to look for her daughter, Linda, but was told that Linda had gone. And this makes my skin crawl. When Rose had opened the door to June Goff, to Linda Goff's mother, she was wearing Linda's slippers and cardigan. And she just tells Mrs. Goff, oh, she just, you know, she gave them to me, but she's gone now. Can you imagine looking for your

daughter who is missing? You knock on the door of this squalid house and then rose i mean rose west not a looker opens the door and she's wearing your daughter's clothes i would that would send me over the edge i know and the thing is she told her she left these slippers and these cardigan with me but when they look into the garden you know on those like plastic spinny uh clothes dryer washing line yeah washing line clothes dryer things yeah those ones so yeah on there there's linda goff's underwear and her mum sees it and is like did she leave that with you as well and she's like yeah she gave them to me who takes second-hand underwear nobody gives you their pants oh my god but you know what could she do all because she could say

is this woman's got my missing daughter's clothes and back then come on this is like the 70s everyone was a runaway according to the police oh your 16 year old daughter is missing yeah she probably ran away she's a runaway yeah she probably like got pregnant and ran away she must have run away we checked the circus like i really feel like that was the attitude and as if if this wasn't enough, so he's busy confessing to approximately nine murders. And he now also confesses that the crimes are not all confined to Cromwell Street. I mean, if you're the police now, for fuck's sake, now you know there are 12 victims. Somewhere. But only three have been found and identified.

So you've got Heather West, their daughter. You've got Shirley Robinson, who'd also been a lodger at number 25 Cromwell Street in 1978. And when she was there, Fred had had an affair with her and got her pregnant. And when he killed her, this is so disgusting, she was 18 and eight months pregnant with his child. When he confesses to the murder of Shirley Robinson, he even tells the police,

oh, Shirley Robinson, she was the girl who caused the problem. You fucking maniac. Don't you think you might be the problem, Fred? Jesus fucking Christ. What's the common denominator here, really? Please. And in usual Fred style,

he tells the police very calmly that when he realised that she was pregnant, and apparently she was telling him she was in love with him. Again, the fear of Rose. He's terrified of Rose. Terrified of the woman in his life finding out that he's been banging some other girl on the side. Because by all intents and purposes, he wasn't raping Shirley Robinson. She was in a consensual relationship with him.

But just the kind of casual dismissive disposal that we see again and again with these two. He tells the buddies, I strangled her. I cut her up and I buried her in the garden one night as Rose was sleeping. Again, we just see it. That kind of just like, this person's a bit inconvenient. This person's a problem. Kill him. Get rid of him.

Done. And they always got away with it. For 25 years they got away with it. And the third body they found in the garden was Alison Chambers, not in fact Shirley's mate, as Fred had said, but another lodger. And the bones of the bodies they found in the garden had all been hacked up. It's like he'd taken an axe to them. A lot of the bones were missing from each victim, mainly the hands, feet, and kneecaps. When they question him on this, he just can't cope. He

just starts crying. And we still don't know what he'd done with the bones because they were never found. They were never found. All of the victims they found were missing their kneecaps and most of them were missing either a hand or a foot or whatever. What was he doing with them? They never found them anywhere. You don't think he was eating them do you i was gonna say that that's what i've kept thinking i mean that's that's the only thing that's missing from this story is cannibalism no no if you were gonna take a trophy bone which bone would you take kneecaps got a good one i feel like a finger is too delicate and you wouldn't want a big old leg bone and a skull is just so, like, cliche.

Kneecap. Yeah. Maybe that's what he was doing. But where were they? It's not like he made a little edgy necklace. I think I'd take that one in your ear that looks like a stirrup. The really little one. Cute.

Can make a little necklace. Just slowly incriminating ourselves episode by episode. Only that we think about these things, not that we've murdered anybody. FYI. Yeah, fact. So we've got three bodies at this point. Who are the other six unnamed victims? Where are all nine bodies? All approximately nine bodies, if we're according to Fred. Back at Cromwell Street, the search continues and the determination of the officers really should not be overlooked. In one of the dig sites, they had even hit a sewage pipe and it was leaking all over the place, but they just carried on. So they were digging in sewage and through decomposed bodies and mud for human remains. And that is no mean feat.

We're harsh on the police when they make mistakes, but full credit to how they took this crime scene apart piece by piece they didn't miss a thing full credit and it paid off because eventually they found five more bodies in the cellar therese siegenthaler shirley hubbard lucy partington and juanita mott and in the bathroom they found the body of linda goff the house was finally empty but still three bodies are missing. If they're to go on Fred's guess that there were three in the garden

and he had nine more, there should be 12 bodies. So yeah, three people are still missing. But despite these missing victims, the police now had to identify the bodies they had found. But the problem was, at this time in Britain,

there were 10,000 missing girls. And they're just the ones that had been reported as missing persons. But, and this just blew my mind, by some insane stroke of luck for the investigators, one of the bodies that they had found in the cellar had distinctive dental work. She had temporary crowns on the front teeth. And the problem was that all of these girls were really similar age, similar ethnicities. There was very little to like distinguish them and to tell them apart. But this person had temporary crowns on their front teeth. And one of the detectives who was involved in the investigation remembered an incident from years and years before where a girl

had had her front teeth knocked out during a hockey game. Seriously. Hockey at school. I was the only one that wore their gum shield. Every single game. Every single practice. Are you mental? Getting smashed in the mouth with a hockey ball? That's what happened to this girl. And what were the chances though? She just happened to remember this. But thanks to that detective, they checked it out. And can you fucking believe it? It turned out to be her it was lucy partington the girl who had had her front teeth knocked out during a hockey game had gone missing 20 years before and it was her jesus christ i mean it glossed as small but that is ridiculous and i guess the teenage girl having her front teeth knocked out even 20 years later this detective still remembered it she may

have gone to school with her yeah well she must have done and but i do feel like it's one of those things where like it's like a schoolyard rumor isn't it oh yeah it's definitely something that would have been remembered not a rumor like it would have been remembered wouldn't it yes absolutely yeah so the new bodies that they had found in the cellar also just gave the police so much more evidence on what had actually happened to these victims. More parcel tape was found taped around their heads. The parcel tape was almost like wrapped around their heads, shaped into masks, and plastic tubes were pushed up into where the nostrils would have been in the skull. And just the debasement and the torture that they had inflicted through mutilation the physical agony the emotional and psychological

torture was absolutely clear because you put the capital d on debasement i thought that's a nickname you were giving to the basement of the house like the debasement basement is that why you text me saying debasement genius i was like yes what do you mean oh I wish I was as smart as you gave me credit for. I thought you were making a pun. Obviously, this is fucking sick. But there's something about a couple that kill together that's quite morbidly fascinating. And I do think as a society, we've completely, we're obsessed with Bonnie and Clyde. We're very socialized, I think, to kind of idealize this sort of like ride or die attitude of like, I would kill for you. That is something that people say, like that's a turn of phrase.

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Follow American Scandal on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. Experience all episodes ad-free and be the first to binge the newest season only on Wondery+. You can join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify. Start your free trial today. You don't believe in ghosts? I get it. Lots of people don't. I didn't either, until I came face to face with them. Ever since that moment, hauntings, spirits, and the unexplained have consumed my entire life. I'm Nadine Bailey. I've been a ghost tour guide for the past 20 years.

I've taken people along with me into the shadows, uncovering the macabre tales that linger in the darkness, and inside some of the most haunted houses, hospitals, prisons, and more. Join me every week on my podcast, Haunted Canada, as we journey through terrifying and bone-chilling stories of the unexplained. Search for Haunted Canada on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you find your favorite podcasts. He was hip-hop's biggest mogul, the man who redefined fame, fortune, and the music industry. Diddy built an empire and lived a life most people only dream about. Everybody know ain't no party like a Diddy party, so.

Yeah, that's what's up. But just as quickly as his empire rose, it came crashing down. Today I'm announcing the unsealing of a three-count indictment, charging Sean Combs with racketeering conspiracy, sex trafficking, interstate transportation for prostitution. I was f***ed up. I hit rock bottom. But I made no excuses. I'm disgusted. I was f***ed up. I hit rock bottom, but I made no excuses. I'm disgusted. I'm so sorry. Until you're wearing an orange jumpsuit, it's not real. Now it's real.

From his meteoric rise to his shocking fall from grace, from law and crime, this is the rise and fall of Diddy. Listen to the rise and fall of Diddy exclusively with Wondery Plus. Oh, definitely. But I feel like that is us against the world. I'll protect you. I'll do whatever you need. This is just killing for kicks. They were soulmates in the sense that they had met someone who wanted the same fucking thing as them, that got off on the same thing as them. This isn't even Bonnie and Clyde to me. This is Ian and Myra, except before. They were the OG Ian and Myra. Yeah, I know what you mean, because I feel like Bonnie and Clyde were criminals, but they're bank robbers.

Like, it's a different highwayman. Yeah, they were like, fuck society. Yeah, we're going to take what we want, and we're going to have a great time, and we're going to look after each other. This to me isn't Bonnie and Clyde this to me is like just two sadists that would have been doing this kind of thing separately but just found each other and it just blew up yeah because I mean Fred was killing before he

met Rose but then I I do I've been thinking about this and I wonder whether it's you know he's like his sexual sadism sadism has to get like incrementally more and more extreme for him to keep getting off. I wonder whether once he'd done it with Rose, he couldn't go back. He couldn't go back to just doing it on his own because it wasn't the same kind of thrill. Oh, 100%. I totally agree. Yeah, it's about, it's someone who gets it.

I think that's quite a powerful feeling. They had a connection. As sick as it was, they had a connection. And I think that's what it was. If you have this incredibly fucked up fetish and desire if you find someone that's into the same thing and will do it with you you're gonna have a connection with that person not condoning it because a lot of killers do take trophies from their victims and obviously we don't know where their kneecaps are but you could argue i think that they are each other's trophy like they yeah see the achievements of their victimization of other

people and their sadism in each other it's like a reflection of their crimes in their life partner absolutely because the reason killers serial killers take trophies is to relive the kill again and again and again but it's exactly like you said their gratification and the way they relive it was just to be with each other it's perfect almost for them i have a lot of trouble with the term soulmate because if there is just one person on the entire planet that is for you it's very unlikely mine is in London it could be in Malawi do you know what I mean like there's no oh yeah absolutely no the term soulmate in an everyday sense is bollocks the term soulmate here I guess I mean is like two people that have very similar childhoods, very similar upbringings. Both sadists, both sexual deviants,

meet each other and they want to do exactly the same thing and they get off on exactly the same thing. They are soulmates. Yeah. I think we're getting into the semantics of soulmates, but you know what I mean. No, I do know exactly what you mean. I don't know.

I mean, do you think like a true sadist, because I think they are the closest I've ever as like a true sadist because i think they are the closest i've ever seen to a true sadist and i think in order to be that you do have to be inherently self-absorbed because it's all about your feelings over other feelings and you have to have this lack of empathy so therefore if you are a sadist can you really love another person that That is interesting. I did also read somewhere, just to go totally rogue though with this, psychopaths absolutely lack empathy. That is one of the crucial things. With sadists, and you know, hear me out, I read an article somewhere where they said, does sadists actually lack empathy? Because if you lacked empathy, how could you tell that that person

would suffer because of what you were doing to them? Oh, that is such a good point. And then how do you get off on their pain, their emotional pain? If you don't recognize it. And if you don't understand, if you totally lacked empathy, how could you be a real sadist? That has put a wrinkle in my brain. I don't know. It was just an interesting thing I read. But no, I totally agree with you. If you lack empathy, can you really love someone? But I don't know it was just an interesting thing i read but no i totally agree with you if you lack empathy can you really love someone but i don't know is it more of a possession thing and is it more of a just they were gratifying each other's needs and wants and desires so they love them they're obsessed they're addicted yeah i think that's a better word but then isn't that love anyway well what is love then if you're If you're saying, you know, what's a soulmate?

What the fuck is love? Because if you're talking self-sacrifice, Fred was sacrificing himself for Rose. He took all the blame and said she had nothing to do with it. But was she then the real psychopath? That's true. And maybe that's why he's so upset because when she starts to ignore him because he's covered for her. And I've even seen an interview where he's telling, I can't remember which one of his victims, it must have been Caroline because she's the one that could live to tell the tale. But he said to her, like, you can't tell Rose that I've done one particular

thing he'd done because she'll kill us both. So I wonder whether he, I mean, he's scared of her. Let's move on and say they were definitely addicted to each other, if nothing else. Yeah, I'm happy with that. We can say that. All that self-sacrifice. Fred did cover for Rose for a long time, but that was about to come to an end. Because she was still rejecting him. And it was a huge mistake. Because now Fred turns on Rose and told the police that she had been involved with all of it.

And now this is like another really interesting part of the Fred and Rosemary West saga. The whole time he's being questioned, a Fred who had some learning difficulties had an appropriate adult with him. And this is basically someone who is there with someone being held in custody who isn't to do with law enforcement, who's there to provide that person with support. And it's basically just a way to protect the interests of vulnerable people. Did you ever watch it? ITV, years ago, even made a whole TV drama about it called Appropriate Adult. No, I don't think I did.

I watched it when it came out years ago, but I haven't seen it since. But guess who plays Fred? Dominic West. Fuck off. Good actor. He's fucking hot. How does Dominic West play Fred West?

He used to come into a restaurant I worked in all the time and we would just be like, so rude. Like, he's just gorgeous. And he's so like calm and considered and suave when he's talking. He's like, oh darling, I'll have the suave. Oh, little bit sleazy. I find that now that you're doing an impression of him.

I don't know how I feel about that. That kind of ultra posh boy thing. Oh, that's absolutely what he is, though. Oh, I thought you were going to say, that's absolutely for me. Oh, lol, no. I know. Shut up.

And also this TV show, like, if we can find the, I don't know, ITV are probably taking it down, but it'll be somewhere on the internet if anybody wants to watch it. But it was absolutely destroyed by Anne-Marie when it came out for being exploitative. So his appropriate adult was a lady called Janet Leach. She was a young woman who wanted to be a social worker. So it's great practice, right? But it gets real weird, real fast for Janet.

Fred starts confiding in her and even tells her after his first hearing, there's a fuckload more. This is really where I start to question whether this whole, I'm a bit slow and don't really know what's going on, I need an appropriate adult. I just think he did. I don't think he's playing it. I don't think he's got the mental capacity to plot and plan. I think he is like Donald Trump, just staggers from error to error and buffoonery to buffoonery. And it just starts to creep Janet the fuck out because he starts telling her all of these secrets and he reveals to her that the other bodies that the police are looking for

are in much more call. Whilst the world was watching Cromwell street the police moved to the fields of fred's childhood and fred's obsession for janet leach just continued to grow he kept telling janet how much she reminded him and this is horrifying of anna mcfall and in case you need reminding who anna mcfall is she is in a suitcase she's fred's very first kill and when janet saw a photo of anna she said that it made the hairs on the back of her neck stand on end because they do look very, very alike. Can you imagine sitting across the table from this depraved, perverted serial killer and you're not even sure.

All he's told you is that there's more. And then he tells you that you remind him of his very first kill you remind him of the beginning of his journey run and what's horrifying is when the police first got janet in to be his appropriate adult they didn't even tell her what he was there for and janet correctly suspected that this is why he was offloading everything to her anna was his first kill he was obsessed by her in his his diaries, he starts to write, I was loved by an angel, Anna. And he even tells Janet that if Anna had never left, he would have lived a happy life. Left? You fucking murdered her, cut out a baby,

put her in a suitcase and buried her in a field. She did not leave of her own free will, for God's sake. Fred now maybe feels that he has a second chance, you know, after brutally murdering his first love, his pregnant first love, no less, all those years ago. And he transfers this obsession. He started telling her everything. He told her that Anna McFall had been murdered and he told her all about Rolf and Rina and the suitcase. Janet tells the police everything and with new names now in the mix, the police investigate. They find that Anna, Rina and Rina's daughter Charmaine were all missing and they had been for 20 years. Could this be the extra three missing bodies? Could this be them? And Fred confesses that they are. He confesses to feeling like he could see the ghosts of his victims coming up at him and that he couldn't cope anymore.

He told them that they were all buried in fields in Much Markle, just 15 miles away from Cromwell Street. And he tells them that the ghosts will lead him to the bodies. Fred, you know where the bodies are. You put them there. Like, you don't need... This isn't UK's Most Haunted Life. You don't need a medium to take take you by the hand you were literally there when they were buried that's not a very impressive seance i don't understand what he's doing he's trying to cover up for it 10 days into this investigation in 1994 fred took the police to much markel and he took them straight to the body of reena costello buried in that field and again he said he could tell that the body was there

because these ghosts were coming out of the ground and coming straight at him. He said he could feel where the bodies were, that they drew him to them. But it's probably just because he knew exactly where the bodies were buried. Because he buried her by a massive fucking tree. And it was the only tree in the field. There's no ghosts, Fred. But it gets so, it gets weirder. After they find Rina Costello, they're up to 10 bodies out of the 12. Fred then took them to Campley, which is like another field really nearby. And here they find Anna McFall's dead body. And once again, they found her just where Fred showed them. And the way he behaves during all of this,

he's like pretending to be like a fucking mentalist. He's putting on some sort of performance. He even is like, oh, why have I got the name Anna in my head? Oh, for God's sake. Anna, why am I, I'm getting an Anna. And it's like, oh, Anna, I know where she is. Her ghost is leading me to her body. And when they find her, he says, oh, he was glad that she'd been found.

And he only knew where her body was because her ghost had told him where it was. And he was adamant. He said that they'd been in love and that he hadn't killed her and that he was just meant to help find her. Bullshit. I think Anna was the one murder that Fred was really ashamed of. For whatever reason. Like, I don't know, he killed loads of people and he killed other women that were pregnant with his own baby, like Shirley Robinson. But we do know with serial killers,

the first kill is always important and tells you a lot about that person. From Fred's later ramblings, his writings, I do think he had a certain obsession with Anna goes back to that whole Madonna whore complex it's like Ted Bundy yeah Rose fits more with Rina and Anna was like an anomaly with the women that he was with and I think he started to see this in Janet which was like fucking hell Janet get out of there yeah Janet run for the hills poor Janet at this point is still sticking with it. And Fred keeps telling her more and more of his creepy ghost fantasies. We've only ever done one ghost episode and I would like to do more. So I'm glad that there are ghosts involved in this one. But I was really hoping that

it would be not like this. Because even I am less sceptical on the ghost spectrum than you are. I can't take this seriously. Because he goes full Macbeth and starts telling her that every time he was in his cell, he could see Anna floating above him in a white dress. Like, it's literally like he's seen this on TV. He's seen like a shitty BBC adaption of Macbeth. And then he's like, like okay this is what ghosts are and Anna floating Anna in her white dress is telling Fred that she has to be found and that's why he confessed and led them to her body he is just he's bananas like he's completely bonkers

either he's lying though or he does genuinely have or he genuinely is having hallucinations which isn't out of the question it's not out of the question he could be having no it's not visual auditory hallucinations and he could be seeing these ghosts coming at him like you keep saying he could be seeing these dead bodies potentially you know if we go back to the whole was fred in love with rose maybe he wasn't a psychopath i don't know maybe he is ill. But whatever was happening, you don't lead the police to a body and pretend you didn't do it. So eventually, Fred does confess. Honestly, like he clearly does not have the capacity to plan a long term ploy to get away

with all of this. After Anna was found, he started to tell the police the whole truth. And he, sure as shit, didn't want to take all the blame anymore. So with Rose ignoring him, he turned on her. And he told the police that he had just been protecting Rose. And now he implicated her in all 10 of the murders. but Rose was still denying it. So they now have Fred pointing the finger at Rose and they had Caroline Roberts with her survivor's testimony but all they had from the survivor's testimony because no trial was carried out and they just got away with that £100 fine. They can't recharge Rose with this because technically it did sort of come to a case closed situation. All they have is that they need to look into Rose more. They need solid

proof that Rose was involved in the actual killings. But the problem was that Rose was much stronger psychologically than Fred. A profiler who examined Rose told the police she won't give you anything and the profiler absolutely called it. He told the police she won't give you anything and the profiler absolutely called it. He told the police Fred was weak and if Rose rejected him he would kill himself. She did and he did because on New Year's Day 1995 Fred West made himself a rope with his bedsheets and hanged himself in his cell leaving only a note for Rose. I'll wait for you in heaven. That is not where you are going, Fred. And now, with almost zero evidence, though, linking Rose with the murders, it seemed like she'd gotten away with it. But remember that Fred had also confessed to the

murder of Charmaine. But where was she? Because she wasn't in the fields of much with her mother. So the police searched her last known address, 25 Midland Road, the house the West had lived in before Cromwell Street. And in this house, under the cheap linoleum of the kitchen floor, they find the body of Charmaine, Rena's baby. She had been last seen in 1971 when she was eight years old. And the police know that during that period of time, the West had lived in that house, Fred was in jail and Charmaine had been solely in Rose's care. So the police now needed to link Charmaine's death with Rose, prove that she alone had killed the girl.

But to identify the time and the date of death, they needed a photo of Charmaine to match it to the skull and then date it. They looked for weeks, but they found nothing. They just couldn't find a photo that they needed. Because they need like a photo with her teeth showing, like a smile wide enough where her teeth are visible. I mean, that's so specific. So they looked for weeks, like I said, they didn't find anything. And then by some miracle, and again, it's like the hockey tee situation. They get a fax. The forensic scientist working on this gets a fax.

And in the interview you watch with him, he says, he just watched this fax print and print and print and print. And it was a photo of Charmaine smiling. And it had been meant for Rose's defence team, but had been accidentally sent to him. The very thing that he was looking for. There are so many things about this case that are just like, quite creepy. They even found the photographer who was able to give him the date the photo had been taken.

The forensics team now used this date and compared it to the skull that they had to say how much growth had occurred and so how much time had passed from when the photo was taken to when the death had occurred and this gave them a probable date of death and with that the police were able to now prove that Fred was in jail when the child had been killed so it had to have been Rose. And finally, after all of the denials, Rose was put on trial in October 1995. She was accused of all 10 counts of murder that Fred had pinned on her before killing himself. But classic Rose, she pleaded not guilty on all counts. But Caroline Roberts took the stand, saying she wanted justice not just for her, but for all of the girls that had been killed after her escape. On the stand, Caroline relived her entire ordeal, telling the court that Rose was in fact the worst of the two, saying,

The closest I came to death was at her hands. She should never be released. Rose still maintained her innocence. But the most heartbreaking part of the entire trial, for me, was that Anne-Marie West, Fred's elder surviving daughter, testified against Rose. She told the court how Fred and Rose had spent her entire childhood raping her, how they had let random men who came into that house rape her, how they brutalized her with sex toys and instruments of torture. She told them how her father, Fred West, had raped her so badly that she couldn't walk for days. As a child, he'd given her syphilis. And how he had let his own brother, her uncle, rape her over 300 times. All the while, Rose just stood in the dock and stared blankly back. And against all advice, Rose, and this is the arrogance of it, against all advice, Rose still took the stand at her trial. And she feigns disgust and blames herself for not having stopped it. And like, for not realising. It's just like, fuck off, Rose.

And the jury just didn't give a shit they know rose is lying she's a fucking monster and they could tell so rose was found guilty of all 10 counts of murder and sentenced to life imprisonment and rose is still alive she's 64 and serving her sentence at brass side in durham she's apparently losing her sight and threatening suicide. Okay, we've tried in these two episodes, but there really isn't a simple explanation for this horrendous crime. Yes, both Fred and Rose had abusive backgrounds, but so do loads of people. They absolutely chose to do what they did, and they spent 25 years killing people and getting away with it. But there was an eight-year gap with the 12 bodies that they found. Serial killers don't usually stop. They don't normally take breaks like that. What you are much more likely to see is that the cooling off period

gets shorter and shorter and shorter. An eight-year gap. It's kind of unheard of. The only killer I can think of that did anything like that was BTK. He like went on hiatus for like 12 years or something. But that was because his child was born. And they do say that sometimes a deep personal connection with another person can stop the killings. But these two were getting off on it, doing it together. So it makes it seem even more likely that there wouldn't have been a silence during those years. And isn't that interesting as well? I often think about it, you know, when we talk about rehabilitation and stuff like that, with the whole BTK argument, they said, the fact that he had a relationship with his wife, they just had this baby, it stopped him killing for all those years. Then isn't it interesting

when we talk about, do you think killers, as part of their rehabilitation should have things like pen pals and stuff like that? Like, if they have that, then maybe they're less likely to re-offend when they come out because they've made a personal connection with somebody? With someone who's a good influence. But you might save more lives in the long run because if BTK had never had that child, he wouldn't have stopped for the years that he did. But it's just a thought. Digression. Carry on.

But it's very clear that Fred and Rose did not have deep deep emotional connections with their children so i think we can write that off that's true so i i really think there are more bodies out there and i think even with fred's confessions that come thick and fast but they only come when he kind of has to like he he doesn't really give the game away apart from to Janet he doesn't tell the police directly anything that they don't already really know but like it's so difficult to like when do you stop looking like are there two more are there 20 more like Fred is dead Rose will never confess and probably is on her last legs anyway we will never know what makes this just such an insane case is that it wasn't the case of what it normally is with these

kind of situations where it's like a sadist and a masochist. It's a case of two sadists coming together. And as we can see with this, it's a highly dangerous combination. It's like if Ian Brady and Myra Hindley had been able to carry on what they did for 20 more years. But in this case, it will always be Rose who fascinates me the most. She was, like we talked about in episode one, Fred's protégé. And probably at first, I think Fred thought she'd probably just be another victim. But she turned out to be cruel and dominant and highly vicious, maybe even more so than he was. And she in fact took it much further than he could have on his own.

Because she opened the door for him to get access to victims that he's otherwise just have no chance of being able to lure. The hitchhiking. He never would have got Caroline to get in the car if it was just him. He never would have been able to lure those girls from that children's home into his house if it was just him. She was his dream woman. And the sick perversion of this like twisted love story is I think what makes it so fascinating yeah oh my god just one last thing because I just just absolutely broke my heart and I told you about it when we were doing the research Anne-Marie

she's the only one that's still alive because Caroline Roberts passed away in 2016 from cancer the only other survivor but the other children Stephen, May and Anne-Marie are still alive. And Anne-Marie was the one who bore the most of Fred and Rose's sexual depravity and is still alive. And what just pushed me over the edge during the research for this was as soon as she finished testifying, she left the court and she went to Gloucester Bridge and she jumped into that freezing cold water because in the interview, watch, they saved her. They saved her.

They were rescued her. But in the interview afterwards, like a few years later, she says how she hates herself, that she survives. She suffers with so much survivor's guilt. She doesn't even seem distraught by what happened to her. She seems more horrified by the fact that she survived and all of these other people died and she just can't cope. How do you cope? How do you cope with that? I don't know. But the fact that she came there, she wanted to. If things had gone her way, she basically knew the

court date. She stayed alive long enough to go testify. And then her plan was to go immediately kill herself. That is just so devastating. That is absolutely horrific. And before I start crying, let's end it there, I think. Let's cheer ourselves up. With our Patreons this week, we have Marie Skipperud, Brittany in F, and Tasha, who posted in our facebook group saying

she's an acting student in australia and we are the first patreon pledge that she's ever done thank you so much we really appreciate it but please please only give what you can afford oh oh my god if you can give a dollar a month that's just so touching to us like please give what you can that's all we ask thank you and kiyolani koche upgraded from a two dollar to a five dollar so we are giving you another shout out because thank you very much and finally we have got dina from twisted philly is now one of our patreons and if you haven't checked out her podcast, you absolutely should. It's really great. It's like lots of dark shit happens in Philadelphia and you need to learn about it.

So go and listen. And she's very slick. Oh, yeah. Very, very slick. It's great. Social media moment of the week is actually a joint effort to many of the people that are on the Facebook group where everyone just started talking about where they listen to Red Handed every week. And so it's really exciting to hear that we're hanging out with you guys in your ears

whilst you're driving trucks, in the bath, cleaning your houses, getting to work, gymming. And if anyone out there, no one said this, but if anyone out there is listening while they're eating, then you're a pervert. Yeah, you are a pervert. Stop it. Put down your cutlery. Five star review thank yous. We have, I love the title of this one.

This one is Bowie on a Tractor by NWD0022. And they say that they are a huge fan of true crime podcasts but Red Handed doesn't disappoint this pod does a great job at building the background of the story and getting into the thick of the crime and also they note that they enjoy it when we explain UK colloquialisms and make it understandable to an international audience they've just put gladly chill on a dark and stormy night and listen to them tell tales hashtag bowie on a tractor that would be my favorite pastime i love it and also because i do still think even after all the episodes we've done i still just love white house farm

murder so i love hashtag bowie on a tractor that is great and the next five star thank you is from BLK Shem, who said, sounds awesome. Which is he or she. You ladies make the podcast. Your content research and opinion is delivered with an awesome mix of humor and fact. I feel like I'm hanging out with old friends and catching up on the latest news and drama. Keep up the great work. We will. And thank you so much.

And we do make the podcast. Like we physically make it. We physically make it and also can't can't stress enough how diy of an operation this is like just how diy this is like don't tell them about the pipe cleaner no i'm gonna tell them the i want to tell them the pop filter of the mic that i'm using is that even the right word i don't even know the like filter over my mic is held in place with a jumbo pipe cleaner that also still randomly swings around when i'm in the middle of like getting on my soapbox about

something kino's dad who says that typically they hannah don't get upset it's a joke typically they hate anyone from the uk but these gals are. With their witty banter and excellent storytelling smiley face, JK about hating Brits, I literally texted Saruti the other day being like, I'm really surprised by the amount of Brit bashing on the internet. Saruti was like, wake up, like you live in the real world. Everyone bashes everyone. But you know who doesn't bash us? You guys. So thank you.

You guys know what to do by now please if you don't already you have your pick we're on all of the social medias we're on twitter we're on instagram we're on facebook pick your favorite pick all three of your favorites and follow us at red handed the pod and you can find our patreon page at patreon.com forward slash redhanded. And keep an eye out on the 14th of January. We will be doing our rescheduled live episode at 8pm British time. I cannot remember right now what... Is it Eastern? I don't even know.

I can't remember the other time zones, but I will post them somewhere. We will. We'll figure it out for you guys. But 8pm GMT Sunday. Is that Sunday the 14th? It is Sunday the 14th, yeah. Sunday the 14th. It's going to be on Killer Kids.

It's going to be really creepy. My story is horrifying. We're going to do it like how we did the Halloween episode. It's going to be exciting. If you join now for even just a dollar a month, you can get in on that fun. So we hope to see you there. Yeah, we will see you next time when we're going to be talking about oh matamoros we're good we've got our first cult coming up next week so stay

tuned bye bye they say hollywood is where dreams are made. A seductive city where many flock to get rich, be adored, and capture America's heart. But when the spotlight turns off, fame, fortune, and lives can disappear in an instant. When TV producer Roy Radin was found dead in a canyon near L.A. in 1983, there were many questions surrounding his death. The last person seen with him was Lainey Jacobs, a seductive cocaine dealer who desperately wanted to be part of the Hollywood elite. Together, they were trying to break into

the movie industry. But things took a dark turn when a million dollars worth of cocaine and cash went missing. From Wondery comes a new season of the hit show Hollywood and Crime, The Cotton Club Murder. Follow Hollywood and Crime, The Cotton Club Murder on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge all episodes of The Cotton Club Murder early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus. I'm Jake Warren, and in our first season of Finding,

I set out on a very personal quest to find the woman who saved my mum's life. You can listen to Finding Natasha right now exclusively on Wondery Plus. In season two, I found myself caught up in a new journey to help someone I've never even met. But a couple of years ago, I came across a social media post by a person named Loti. It read in part, three years ago today that I attempted to jump off this bridge, but this wasn't my time to go. A gentleman named Andy saved my life. I still haven't found him. This is a story that I

came across purely by chance, but it instantly moved me. And it's taken me to a place where I've had to consider some deeper issues around mental health. This is season two of Finding and this time if all goes to plan we'll be finding Andy. You can listen to Finding Andy

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