RedHanded - Episode 30 - The Chucky Doll Killer

Episode Date: January 25, 2018

This week the girls explore the phenomenon of ‘amphetamine induced psychosis’ in one of most violent cases they’ve ever covered. Join them as they follow the brutal torture and murder of 16 year old Suzanne Capper by the manipulative ‘Chucky Doll Killer’ - Bernadette McNeilly - a woman later described as ‘the most evil inmate’ on a prison wing she shared with notorious child killers Rose West and Myra Hindley.   See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to Red Handed early and ad-free. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. They say Hollywood is where dreams are made. A seductive city where many flock to get rich, be adored, and capture America's heart. But when the spotlight turns off, fame, fortune, and lives can disappear in an instant. Follow Hollywood and Crime, The Cotton Club Murder on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Sruti.

I'm Hannah. And this is Red Handed. And today we are doing one of our re-record remastering of an old episode. Yeah, a revamp. A revamp. We're going back to the rather troubling case of Suzanne Capper. It is absolutely cases like this that scare me the most. Cases like Junko Furuta in Japan and the case of Kellyanne Bates again here in the UK. It's just the idea of being held captive and tortured to death. Well, I'm pretty sure it's everybody's idea of a worse nightmare, but it's horrifying, this case today. And I think Junko Furuta is like a fair comparison because she's so young. It's, I would honestly say Junko Furuta is one of fair comparison because she's so young. It's, I would honestly say Junko Furuta is one of the cases that I don't think we'll ever cover on this podcast because we

just can't. Today it's along a similar vein and fair warning this is absolutely not for the faint hearted. So today we're going to be looking at the story of 16 year old Suzanne Kappa who was held captive and systematically tortured for six days before being murdered by people she considered to be her closest friends. And this case did not receive nearly as much media attention as might have been expected as it coincided with the trial of Robert Thompson and John Venables for the horrendous murder of the toddler James Bulger. I think James Bulger is probably the most famous child murder in the UK. Again, one I'm not sure we'll ever cover. The case we're talking about today took place just two months before

James Bulger was murdered and only 35 miles away. But despite not being widely known, it's still regarded as one of Britain's most brutal and shocking murders. Detectives on the case stated that for sheer mindless brutality, they ranked the crime alongside the infamous Moores murders. Detectives on the case stated that for sheer mindless brutality they ranked the crime alongside the infamous Moores murders. The crime occurred on the Langworthy estate in Moston in Manchester's East Side in 1993. To set the scene it was a region where unemployment and poverty were rife and crime was endemic and it was where the notorious killer Trevor Hardy or the Beast of Manchester had terrified residents a decade before. A little bit of background on Suzanne.

She was described by everyone who knew her as a kind girl, but maybe someone who was easily led and perhaps just a bit too forgiving. She was also seen as someone who always tried to handle her problems on her own. And I think, sadly, all of these factors together really impacted how life would go for Suzanne. Now when Suzanne was 14 years old her parents divorced and this had a truly detrimental effect on Suzanne because from this point on it seemed that her and her older sister Michelle just no longer had any sort of stable foundation or permanent home. The girls would constantly move from living with their mother to their stepfather to friends and other family members and even living under the care of the local authority in care homes and children's homes. Suzanne by age 16 had been truanting school for almost two years,

basically since her parents' divorce. Her attendance at Mostenbrook High School was described as erratic. I don't think any of this kind of makes Suzanne particularly an anomaly during this time or in this area. Divorced parents, truanting from school. But I think it's that Suzanne's vulnerability is what left her so open to the tragedy that would befall her. She was left at risk from those who would do her harm because of the lack of stability in her life. And one day, whilst truanting, Suzanne saw a boy, Clifford Pook, also 16, who sat on the side of the road, upset. And she went over to him to ask if he was okay. And the story today begins with this chance encounter. Pook and Suzanne became friends and

soon he introduced Suzanne to his sister Jean Powell who was 26 and a mother already to three children. Suzanne started to spend more and more time with Jean who lived at number 97 Langworthy Road, a typical small Victorian terraced house in Moston. Powell was a petty criminal who dealt drugs, handled stolen car parts, and found herself in violent confrontations with neighbours. People knew that she was trouble, but Suzanne seemed devoted to her new friend. Suzanne, who was living with her stepfather at the time, without telling her parents, dropped out of school to join Powell as an office cleaner and would regularly babysit her children. Powell took all of Suzanne's money from their cleaning job and allowed her just five pounds a

week pocket money. And that's really important, I think, like from the beginning of their relationship it's all about total control. But despite all of this, Suzanne stayed. Soon after, a neighbour, Bernadette McNeely, 23, with three children of her own, would move in with Powell at 97 Langworthy Road. Michelle Capper, Suzanne's older sister, had actually been living with Jean Powell too, but moved out in August 1992, shortly after the arrival of McNeely, because she considered her to be evil. And I really just wonder, like, what the fuck are her parents doing? Like, why is her older sister and Suzanne herself, how have they managed to drop out of school and move in with someone else, both of them, and nothing has been done?

Absolutely. And also just the fact that Bernadette McNeely and Jean Powell were known in the area to be criminals, to be violent, to be confrontational. And these parents are just not paying any attention to where their two daughters are living. The thing is, McNeely was so much worse than Powell and had a much larger reputation in the area for drug and booze-fuelled violence.

And on one occasion, she even set fire to her neighbour's washing. That seems like a really bizarre thing to threaten to do. No, apparently she threatened to burn her neighbour's house down because the two had been in a confrontation. But as a compromise, she just set fire to her clothing, like her washing instead. She's a piece of work. And I think it's safe to say she's definitely booze and drug addled in the head. Like, I don't think any of her decisions were too carefully thought out. With Bernadette McNeely moving in, a weird setup started to develop at number 97. Aside from the criminal activities, both Powell and McNeely were engaging in casual sex with the myriad of drug

addicts, delinquents, and petty crooks, to whom their place was basically just a doss house. And this would be the right time to introduce all of the other four who would go on to be involved in Suzanne's torture and murder. There are a lot of names, so we'll take it slow. You ready? So Glimpal, 28, was Jean's husband, from whom she was separated, but the two were still friendly and he was often still at her house. Next was Anthony Michael Dudson, who was 16, and he was McNeely's boyfriend. 23-year-old McNeely's 16- 23 year old McNeely's 16 year old boyfriend. That's absolutely vile. But he was also having sex with Powell so it's even more vile than you think

at the start. And then there's Geoffrey Lee who's 26 and he's a drug addict who also spent a lot of time at the house and was also engaged in a sexual relationship with Powell. Then there's Clifford Pook who's 16. Remember him? He was the one that introduced Suzanne to these people. And he, as we said before, was Jean's brother, and he was also a frequent visitor to the house. Now, Suzanne was still living with her stepfather, but spent almost all of her time at Powell's house,

even though what had begun as bullying behaviour by Powell and McNeely towards Suzanne quickly escalated into just outright violence. Now, apparently Suzanne had told her mother about the violence going on at number 97, and she even told some of her neighbours that she had been tied up for four days by the gang. But it appears that no one believed her. She was supposed to move to her mum's new flat on Christmas Eve, but sadly, Suzanne wouldn't survive long enough. Why is it no one believed her?

I find that so hard to understand. I think what you're assuming, that by saying, oh, these people had a reputation for being bad news, that's kind of like, oh, they're probably, they might be a bad influence. You don't think they're going to murder your child. Do you know what I mean?

Is it because she tells them, they tied me up for four days there's bullying behavior there's this but then because she keeps going back no one believes her because in their heads they think well it can't really be true because you're still friends with them yeah I think that is that and I wonder whether there's an element of if I believe you I am admitting that I was at fault because I let that happen to you. And I also think, I mean, it's clear, the amount of neglect. How much did these people even care? How much did her parents even care?

Evidently. What set off the series of events that would eventually lead to Suzanne's death doesn't seem too clear, despite the perpetrator's later confessions, because the reasons are so illogical and trivial. Like, I think it's often... I think this is why this case has given us both quite a hard time. It's a bit easier to read about stuff like this if there's a reason behind it,

even if that reason is mental illness or abuse or neglect or passion or revenge or whatever. It's easier when there is a reason. This has absolutely no logic to it, and that's why it's so terrifying. Even in cases where you can't understand why someone would behave like that, in this case, I think it transcends that so much more

because there's a group of them as well. So three big issues that did seem to kick off the aggression against Suzanne. They're so dumb, but here they are. They start off with an infestation of pubic lice, a missing coat, and a man called Yusuf. In late November 1993, Jean Powell and Suzanne met a man named Yusuf, and according to Powell, Suzanne had encouraged her to sleep with the self-styled shake. Try say that quickly. I just did and I didn't do particularly well.

So Powell says that Suzanne deserves a good hiding for trying to make her go with an Arab. Second thing, a pink duffel coat worth £50 goes missing from the house. They had no proof that Suzanne had been involved in this, but it didn't matter. And then finally, ridiculous reason number three. In December

Anthony, Jean, Bernadette and Glyn Powell all contracted pubic lice. Which I'm not surprised because they're all shagging each other. They're clearly shagging outside of the house so it's not surprising that someone brings it. To be honest they're lucky that that's all they got away with but paul and mcneely pinned the blame squarely on suzanne who often slept in the downstairs bed at number 97 so they basically say that she brought in the pubic lice slept in the downstairs bed they slept in that bed and they got pubic lice i don't think that's how you get pubic lice that's definitely not how you get pubic lice i think they're not even a thing anymore like when was the last time you heard about pubic lice? I don't... I think it is still a thing.

I don't think it's just, like, as widely spread these days. If you're gonna sleep with somebody. Because condoms can't protect you from them. No, so just don't sleep with anyone ever. Because you will die. You will get pubic lice. And it didn't take long for McNeely to convince the others that it was all

Suzanne's fault and she had to pay for it. I kind of set the scene for kind of what led to the kidnap, torture and murder of Suzanne Capper. So on the 7th of December, Paola McNeely knocked at the door of 6 Boolie Walk, the home of Suzanne's stepfather with whom she'd been living. And eager as ever to please, and this just breaks my heart, the two women have no difficulty convincing Suzanne to come with them to number 97 Langworthy Road, where Dodson and Glyn Powell were waiting. And as soon as Suzanne walked through the door, the assault began. The two men grabbed her, dragged her into the kitchen, and shaved her head and her eyebrows off. They stripped Suzanne naked, then spent hours beating her and suffocating her with a plastic bag. They eventually lock her in a cupboard for the her and suffocating her with a plastic bag.

They eventually lock her in a cupboard for the night and go to bed. Just casually. They've got this woman they've just been torturing locked in a fucking cupboard and they just go to bed. And then the next day, they decide to move Suzanne to McNeely's old house just two doors away, number 91 Langworthy Road, where just one man, David Hill, was living on his own. Because, get this, her screams were upsetting the six children who lived at the house. Because don't forget, Jean Powell and Bernadette McNeely have got three kids each, all living in that house. So they move her to number 91. I think it is strange.

I can't imagine what kind of a person you would have to be to hear someone screaming and go over to that house and not call the police and just say i'm like my kids are asleep can you not can you stop being tortured please absolutely like for a start but also like how did nobody else do you mean like the people living next door yeah yeah because they lived in a terrorist house there's no way that people couldn't hear them screaming next door when the fucking people that live in the house next to us, and we only share one wall with them, like fucking watch Jurassic Park every single Saturday, like I can hear every single word in my living room.

People could hear Suzanne Capper being tortured. But Mostyn this time. There's rough areas, but I think that's pushing it, I think. I know, but they move her to 91, and this is where the worst of the torture would happen. So first, Suzanne was forced to shave her pubic hair. And just the humiliation of this. She was then tied spread-eagle to an upturned bed.

So now with Suzanne totally under their control, and with no children around, they were free to do whatever they wanted. They injected themselves and Suzanne with amphetamines and sunk into a sadistic world of depravity and madness that would last an excruciating five days. They would regularly beat Suzanne, burn her with cigarettes, inject her with drugs and blast their music through headphones at full volume for hours and hours and it would get worse as each day went by mcneeley was very much the ringleader she started taking so many drugs that she lost touch with

reality completely and she began to take on the persona of chucky the murderous doll from the movie child's play she began each torture session with Chucky's coming to play which never failed to start Suzanne screaming. And apparently when she'd say that like Chucky's coming to play she'd like say it in like a demonic like she'd put on a voice. And even Powell would later admit that Bernadette's behaviour disturbed her. No it didn't. That's such a turncoat-y thing to say. After a few days, Pook and Lee were brought to the house and shown a bald, beaten, gagged and blindfolded Suzanne tied to the bed. Suzanne had never been allowed to use the bathroom, so she lay there covered in urine and faeces, and the six of them decided to clean her up. So they placed her in a bath of neat

disinfectant and scrubbed her with hard, bristled brushes until parts of her skin peeled off. And for six days, Suzanne had been relentlessly tortured. But despite their pure, sadistic pleasure, even her six captors knew that it just couldn't go on forever. When they discovered from Michelle Capper, who was Suzanne's sister, that Suzanne's stepfather was going to file a missing persons report.

About fucking time. Your kid's been missing for six days. They knew at this point though they had to dispose of Suzanne. The escalation. Pook then decides to rip out several of Suzanne's teeth with a pair of pliers to prevent easy identification. Well, that's what they said and it does make sense. But the police would later find these kept like little macabre trophies in the house. So that's very serial killer-esque. I can't handle teeth. I can't. I mean, did you watch the like thing on the news yesterday about how many kids in England are having to have their teeth pulled out because there's too much sugar and parents just like let them eat sugar and don't brush their teeth. And it's like having their teeth pulled out. Yeah. And it's costing the nhs absolutely millions and the problem is these kids are having to be put under

general anesthetic to have their teeth pulled out because they're having multiple teeth being put under general anesthetic for an avoidable reason as a child is so dangerous like so dangerous what is the point fucking get your kids to brush their teeth and don't let them drink fizzy drinks and orange juice and all of the good stuff. Do you want to start a parenting podcast, Suti? You can have imaginary children. I don't want to have any children. The child that was sat in front of me the whole way to your house was enough. Actually, like I said, I think the mother was more annoying than the child.

She was just like, ugh. I can name a kid's name with Hannah, actually. Perfect. Hannah, you've got so much hummus on your top. Come here. I was just like, oh, I can never get his name with Hannah, actually. Perfect. Hannah, you've got so much hummus on your top. Come here. I was like, shut up. Shut the fuck up. Anyway, so it's now early on December 14th, 1992, and the group loaded Suzanne into the boot of a stolen car. Again, not the smartest decision, probably. And Jean Powell McNeely, Glyn Powell and Dudson drove her 15 miles to a secluded spot just outside the town of Stockport. What I want to know is how they got her out of the house and into the boot of the car with no one seeing.

Early morning, quiet. She's probably knackered. They're not going to have been feeding her. She'd have been starved, dehydrated. Teeth have been pulled out. I'm guessing she's going to be probably unconscious at this point. Apparently, McNeely, the drive to this secluded spot that they took her to, the entire way Bernadette McNeely giggled within anticipation. And when they arrive, they push Suzanne through brambles and down a hill. And as she lay on the

ground, they doused her with petrol. And in a final act of insane violence, Glyn Powell set Suzanne Capper alight. Dodson would later say that the flames lit up the forest as Suzanne screamed. And the four left Suzanne for dead, allegedly with McNeely singing Burn Baby Burn on the journey back to Moston. They even stopped to buy drinks on the way back to Jean's house where Pook and Leek were waiting for them.

What really makes me sick is they didn't even kill her. They didn't even finish her off. But despite everything, Suzanne isn't dead. 75% of her body is covered in burns. She gathers her strength and crawls up the embankment. This is absolutely incredible. So not only has she been tortured for six days in a row, she's completely naked and now she's on fire, she still manages to keep going. She staggers towards the main road and stumbles a

quarter of a mile to Comstall Road where at ten past 6 in the morning, she's spotted by three men on their way to work. Can you imagine? Just on your way to work and then... Just this poor 16-year-old, naked, bald girl with 75% of her body covered in burns. How this was not in the press is astonishing. What a story. This is The Harvard Plan, a special series from the Boston Globe and WNYC's On The Media. To listen, subscribe to On The Media wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Jake Warren, and in our first season of Finding, I set out on a very personal quest to find the woman who saved my mom's life. You can listen to Finding Natasha right now, exclusively on Wondery Plus. In season two, I found myself caught up in a new

journey to help someone I've never even met. But a couple of years ago, I came across a social media post by a person named Loti. It read in part, three years ago today that I attempted to jump off this bridge, but this wasn't my time to go. A gentleman named Andy saved my life. I still haven't found him. This is a story that I came across purely by chance, but it instantly moved me and it's taken me to a place where I've had to consider some deeper issues around mental health. This is season two of Finding and this time, if all goes to plan, we'll be finding Andy. You can listen to Finding Andy and Finding Natasha exclusively and ad-free on

Wondery Plus. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify. Hi, I'm Lindsey Graham, the host of Wondery Show American Scandal. We bring to light some of the biggest controversies in U.S. history. Presidential lies, environmental disasters, corporate fraud. In our latest series, NASA embarks on an ambitious program to reinvent space exploration with the launch of its first reusable vehicle, the Space Shuttle. And in 1985, they announced they're sending teacher Krista McAuliffe into space aboard the Space Shuttle Challenger, along with six other astronauts. But less than two minutes after liftoff, the Challenger explodes. And in the tragedy's aftermath, investigators uncover a series of preventable failures by NASA and its contractors that led to the disaster.

Follow American Scandal on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. Experience all episodes ad-free and be the first to binge the newest season only on Wondery Plus. You can join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify. Start your free trial today. It's like with the Fred and Rose West case, because even with that, do you remember, like, during the trial, journalists toned down the testimony they were hearing because, get this, people stopped buying the paper. People stopped reading it because it was too much. For once, instead of sensationalizing it, they downgraded what was happening. I don't know.

Maybe the country just couldn't cope with this. Right after James Bulger, I think the country was tearing itself apart with everything that was going on. There was talk of, like, the moral fabric of our society has been torn. It's so interesting, isn't it? Like, when is it too much? And I suppose you only find that out when people stop buying the papers. That's the only way you can push that boundary so Suzanne despite everything she manages to explain to these men

that she'd been set on fire and she even pointed out where it happened they immediately took Suzanne to a nearby house and called an ambulance Margaret and Michael Coop were the people who lived at the house Suzanne had been taken to and they said that Suzanne's hands and feet were like ash and the rest of her body was like raw meat but despite all of this the couple were taken aback by how polite she was as suzanne kept thanking them for their assistance i think that's the last thing that'll be on my fucking mind if i was like raw flesh like p's and q's i don't think so i know i think it's just more testimony to the kind of person suzanne was and the injuries to suzanne kepper like you've kind of outlined they were absolutely

horrendous her head was shaved she was severely burnt all over her body she was missing teeth and her face had been left almost featureless from the burns suzanne was rushed to hospital where her parents couldn't even identify her. She was positively ID'd by a fingerprint taken from her thumb, the only part of her body that wasn't severely burned. Now before Suzanne was put into an induced coma, she told police what had happened to her, and yes, Suzanne, because she named all six of her persecutors.

Suzanne never regained consciousness and died on the 18th of December 1992. After their arrests on December the 14th, at first, all six denied any involvement in the crime, but finally, Dudson came clean. After Suzanne's post-mortem, the full extent of her suffering became clear, and the nation, which had just come through the case of James Bulger was screaming for the return of the death penalty. On December 17th all six appeared before magistrates

in Manchester and after a 22-week trial eventually all except Geoffrey Lee were found guilty of murder, conspiracy to cause grievous bodily harm and false imprisonment. Lee was convicted of false imprisonment only. And this is what makes this so fucked. Psychological reports at the time said that these were absolutely sane individuals. But studies have shown that sadism can also be spotted in people who normally do not display other types of psychopathic disorders. Aggression and violence are also common side effects of amphetamine use with long-term use leading to amphetamine psychosis which can lead the individual to suffer from delusions and hallucinations. I think like a lot of people take speed and are fine so

it's an interesting argument so how far can you blame it on the drugs like there has to be similarly to when we were talking about what makes what makes a psychopath and it all has to be lined up like dominoes and then there's an effect that something happens that knocks them all over i think it has to be similar here it can't just be i know but i think here it's a bit different because when people when you see cases of psychosis in say a person that's not suffering from drug-induced psychosis it will be there sort of consistently throughout the time that they're being examined but with a drug-induced psychosis or amphetamine-induced psychosis the thing is as soon as the drugs are taken away and the person is clean of drugs the psychosis symptoms completely disappear

so it is completely and inextricably linked so it's not that it's the amphetamines sort of exacerbating already pre-existing psycho like psychosis or you know any sort of underlying tendencies that may already exist in that psychiatric disorders that may already exist in that person it is completely an anomalous effect that we see where the drug actually induces the symptoms of psychosis which is completely different and i know what you mean like of course people take amphetamines and we don't see it but i think with this it is from prolonged use and very very much consistent and abuse of just long-running abuse of amphetamines leads can lead to amphetamine induced amphetamine psychosis or drugs like the mom in requiem for a dream that's what it is isn't it and that's the

thing i think people who take a bit of a speed take a bit of speed on the weekend and like go out and party it's like you start taking that every single day i think you would probably you would see speed such a retro drug too. No one's taking speed anymore. Just go have a drink and have a good time. Or get a fucking life. Don't need to take speed and then end up with fucking amphetamine psychosis. I just feel like, why are people so obsessed with it?

Every day I go on at the moment, the guy wants to talk to me about LSD or about how he's tried drugs and he's so cool. The guy last week uh have you ever taken lsd i feel like it's just the best way to find yourself i'm like i'm found i know myself i'm fine i'm right here i'm so fine i'm just fucking idiots man but yes i think this is the problem it's like long-term use of drugs and amphetamines leads to drug-induced psychosis which totally makes sense. It just fucking rots your brain. What is psychosis?

Auditory visual hallucinations, things like that, hearing voices. Like, I can buy it. I can buy that that happens. And then coupled with that, the violence that it can also lead to. It kind of also makes sense because they were all found sane. So if it was just one person and they were, you know, showing these sadistic, psychopathic tendencies, the drugs was like the trigger and they were you know showing these sadistic psychopathic tendencies the drugs was like the trigger and they were acting like this but all six of them were found

sane all six of them took part in this Bernadette McNally was absolutely the ringleader but Pook 16 who was Suzanne's quote-unquote friend first was pulling her fucking teeth out and keeping them as little trophies like this is why i feel like there has to be an uh an explanation that is linked to the drugs more than a psychiatric problem because what are the chances that all six of them are suffering from the same thing no no i don't think that they all six of them had the same psychiatric disorder i think we can write that off they were found totally sane and therefore found totally culpable of what they had done so let's talk about the sentencing.

Bernadette McNeely, Jean Powell and Glyn Powell were all sentenced to life imprisonment to serve a minimum term of 25 years. Anthony Michael Dudson was to be detained indefinitely with a minimum tariff of 18 years. And in 2013, guess what? He was released after a parole board ruled that he posed no risk to the public. Clifford Pook was sentenced to 15 years and was released on licence in 2001, having served just eight years of his sentence. He was the one who pulled out Suzanne Capper's teeth and kept them.

He was released after eight years. And Geoffrey Lee was sentenced to 12 years but was released after nine years and Jeffrey Lee was sentenced to 12 years but was released after nine years in 1998 not even having served half of his sentence. Bernadette McNeely who really does seem to be the main culprit and I feel like that has to be why they got lighter sentences and were let out so early is that she I mean rightly but she bore the brunt of it and they kind of got off quite lightly for their involvement I think. But she was actually released in 2015 after a high court judge reduced her minimum tariff, so she served 21 years, after he heard of her exceptional progress and listened as she was described as a model prisoner who was filled

with remorse. So in prison she took educational courses, mentored other prisoners and helped last chance kids stay away from crime. But many inmates considered her as dangerous, clever and manipulative, which is saying quite a lot considering she was on the same ward as myra hindley and rose fucking west and bernadette mcneely was the one people were looking out for and they served time together like they were there at the same time and people said the other inmates said that she was the most evil woman in that wing so and also i she's just playing the game that's all it is like she i think she's very intelligent and she's read the situation saying i'm i need to get out of this and the quickest way i can make that happen is by

cooperating and in fact she went a little bit further because in 1996 while she was serving at durham prison letters was discovered and they revealed an affair with a married senior prison warden called mike martin and martin resigned before any disciplinary action could be taken so not only is she trying to tick all of the boxes of this reformed prisoner she's also shagging the warden like i think this isn't some like beat cop this is the man at the top like she knew exactly what she was doing she was playing the game to get out she's not a reformed prisoner she's not a reformed person and the nation was also up in arms about

this and the james bolger case and there's loads of questions being asked about the impact of violent films on young people obviously we've already had the chucky doll reference to child's play but really interestingly in the uk the releases of natural-born killers and reservoir dogs were delayed as a direct result of Suzanne's murder. And I think that is fascinating because you see this argument, this argument hasn't gone anywhere, it's just video games now. Like violent video games are the reason people are being violent. There's always been violence. Human beings are violent things. This is the thing, it's a very easy scapegoat for us to use when we think, what causes this kind of thing?

What causes this kind of behaviour? Look back at the steps that led to this. It was neglect, it's abuse somewhere along the line. It is a lack of any sort of social structure, like social care structures in place. It's poor parenting and that kind of thing that was led to this. Why then? We always look to blame video games, movies. I watch slasher films all the time. I feel like I'm perfectly well grounded, had a really,

you know, stable upbringing, no abuse. I was incredibly lucky to have that and because of that I can watch a film like that and it has no impact on me to want to go out and kill somebody. So let's look at the causes that allow things like that to trigger behaviour in people rather than blaming those. Because a healthy-minded person who was not victim to abuse and all of the other things that we know lead people to go down a road of violence can watch it and have no problem, then it's not that that is the problem, is it? It's not that that's creating killers and violent people in our society. No, exactly. It's so, you're right, it's a cop-out to be like, oh, it can't be our, it can't be the fabric of our society that is broken. It has to be

this really easy thing like violent films or violent video games or drugs or whatever. It's much harder to actually say we've, we've fucked up drugs or whatever it's much harder to actually say we've we've fucked up yeah it's much harder to address the massive societal failings that we have of people who are disadvantaged of people that are have no safety net suzanne was left totally vulnerable there was no one there to catch her to help her she slipped through every crack and she fell victim to these people we haven't for once in this case gone into the backgrounds of Bernadette McNeely or Jean Powell but I'm sure if we did we would find abuse and we would find neglect that isn't excusing them for what they did but let's not say that they sat around watch child's play and that

led them to go and become killers if we're going say that, why not say they were probably abused and that led them to become broken people that sadly were then also probably inflicted with some other problems that led them to go on to behave like this? What I find the most undeniable piece of evidence that we are doing something wrong is the biggest cause of death for men under 30 in the UK is suicide. We are doing something horribly, horribly wrong. And I don't understand why people don't believe it. Like what more evidence that you need do you need when young men are killing themselves? And just think for a second, if it was another disease, if it was not mental health, if it was another disease that was killing men under the age of 30

in this country, far outpaces it. The next follow-up thing that leads to the highest rate of death. Imagine if it was a type of cancer. We would all be throwing buckets of ice water on each other. We'd be growing our moustaches. We'd be doing everything we could to raise money to find a cure. But when it's mental health, let's not pretend the stigma around that has gone away.

We don't want to talk about it. And yeah, you're right. That's absolutely the problem. around that has gone away. We don't want to talk about it. And yeah, you're right. That's absolutely the problem. And this is the thing. It's an absolute cop-out to look to blame external problems on why we have violence in society. Yes, it's going to be there. We are, we're animals. We're not that highly evolved as we'd like to think.

Let's therefore not blame films when killing has been going on since the beginning of time. Yeah, and also another argument that this case threw up was the death penalty, which obviously we don't have in the UK. And it's interesting to think, it's always cases that involve children, I find, that bring back people saying, you know, bring back hanging. I mean, I'm personally against the death penalty, and we have spoken about this at length before.

But this one I do struggle with because I don't think Bernadette McNeely was rehabilitated. No, but the thing is, I think there's two questions when you talk about the death penalty is, do you believe in rehabilitation and therefore that person should have the chance to be rehabilitated? But then there's also, that person should still be punished. My thing is just the punishment shouldn't be corporal punishment, but the punishment should be incarceration so looking at those sentences and looking at the time that was served for the crime that was committed i don't care if she was remorseful or rehabilitated the punishment needs to be there the punishment isn't just we're going to rehabilitate you and then you can go free and

carry on with your life fuck that like if you've committed a crime like that yes you should be rehabilitated so once you are released in 50 years time or whatever, you won't be a danger to anybody. But the incarceration must still, the time she should be incarcerated should absolutely still match the severity of the crime that was committed. Just for me crossing the line where the state sanctioned murder, which is what, in my opinion, corporal punishment is, doesn't fit with what we should want society to be but they did not serve enough time for the crimes that they were committed

yeah I completely agree as usual let us know what you think it's a difficult case I'd be quite interested to have a little death penalty debate on the Facebook group don't be dicks about it don't be dicks about it no but let's have a considered debate

I'd be really interested to see what people have to say about that absolutely cool so let's thank our lovely patreons for this week new ones we have katrina vbb nicole rude mark whiteman sarah boomsma which is a cracking name that is actually my friend it's dutch is that her for real name fucking hell i'm from the wrong country and gabrielle novakovic phone i think i'm sorry if i said that wrong and veronica bennett and review thank yous we've got dico 77 who says what the actual fuck favorite podcast ever great chemistry between the hosts subject matter is always horrific hilarious slash insightful slash thoughtful slash respectful to victims so would record i recommend this podcast to everyone i speak to thanks dicko i didn't realize that i say what the actual fuck quite a lot until people started talking about it on the facebook group it's just in my vocabulary I don't even notice I'm saying it so then we have Cy the

Cyans who recently discovered us and they binged all of our episodes over the Christmas holidays and they think that we cover really interesting cases that are not covered to death excuse the pun they did say that and finally we're gonna go for Poppy MS who says the best British true crime podcast I want to be mates with the hosts and talk about gruesome cases while drinking wine. A thoroughly British approach to true crime, swearing and all. Was this the person who also put mates in inverted

commas? No, that was someone else. I also liked that because I was like, are they saying that we're not really their mates or are they saying because we were same mates? Do people in America say mates? No. I feel like that's us and the Aussies. Yeah, I don't think people in america say mates no i feel like that's us and the aussies yeah i don't think people in america say mates unless they're doing an impression of a british person i hate the word i hate babe and hun and anything anything so mate you are a big mater actually and then our

social media moment of the week this is so important you might have seen it on our social medias buzzfeed are doing a undiscovered podcast in 2018 situation please comment and tell them why you like our podcast so we can be featured how you can do that is you just google buzzfeed scotty o'brien podcast 2018 and the article is called what underrated podcasts are you really getting into in 2018 please leave a comment or you can tweet at buzzfeed we'd really really appreciate it fantastic and as ever you guys know where to find us facebook twitter i want to say pinterest we're not on pinterest why would we have a pinterest that would be the most horrific thing can you imagine we'd go to prison we'd go to pinterest prison no no pinterest don't

look for us there but facebook instagram and twitter you can follow us at red handed the pod if you would like to head on over to patreon.com slash red handed and maybe chuck us a bit of change because we'd really appreciate that and we'll see you next time don't forget to tell your mates bye Don't forget to tell with them. Ever since that moment, hauntings, spirits, and the unexplained have consumed my entire life. I'm Nadine Bailey. I've been a ghost tour guide for the past 20 years. I've taken people along with me into the shadows, uncovering the macabre tales that linger in the darkness, and inside some of the most haunted houses, hospitals, prisons, and more. Join me every week on my podcast, Haunted Canada, as we journey through terrifying and bone-chilling stories of the unexplained.

Search for Haunted Canada on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you find your favorite podcasts. He was hip-hop's biggest mogul, the man who redefined fame, fortune, and the music industry. The first male rapper to be honored on the Hollywood Walk of Fame, Sean Diddy Combs. Diddy built an empire and lived a life most people only dream about. Everybody know ain't no party like a Diddy party, so. Yeah, that's what's up. But just as quickly as his empire rose, it came crashing down.

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