RedHanded - Episode 314 - The Gilgo Beach Killings - Part 2

Episode Date: September 7, 2023

On 13 July 2023 - after decades of corruption and inaction - police arrested 59-year-old New York architect Rex Heuermann, on suspicion of being the LISK.In this episode, we’ll look at Heue...rmann’s family life, his background - and delve into the 33-page bail document that offers us an in-depth look at how investigators finally caught this notorious, modern American serial killer.To vote for us at the British Podcast Awards, click here: https://www.britishpodcastawards.com/votingTo nominate a challenge, as well as a case for the bonus episode if we win gold, click here: https://forms.gle/BG7suAW7a4sUPZxr8Follow us on social media:InstagramTwitterVisit our website:WebsiteSources available on redhandedpodcast.comSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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Starting point is 00:01:05 BetMGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with iGaming Ontario. They say Hollywood is where dreams are made. A seductive city where many flock to get rich, be adored, and capture America's heart. But when the spotlight turns off, fame, fortune, and lives can disappear in an instant. Follow Hollywood and Crime, The Cotton Club Murder on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Saruti. I'm Hannah.
Starting point is 00:01:41 And welcome to Red Hooded, where Mabel is chewing up Hannah's shirt on the floor underneath me. Hi Mabel. I know. Desperate attempt to keep her quiet for the next hour of it. What are you trying to tell me? Apart from chewing my earphones, are you trying to tell me that the people should vote for us in the British Podcast Awards Listener's Choice? I think so. I think that's what Mabel is trying to tell us. So don't do it for us. Do it for Mabel. Do it for Mabel Elizabeth Maguire. Mabel gets 50 treats from me over the course of the next year. If you vote for us in the Listener's Choice for the British Podcast Awards, guys, I know we've asked this of you multiple times before,
Starting point is 00:02:18 and you have delivered every time because we have won gold for the last two years. Mabel, those are my feet. And you have delivered. And we would love you to do it one last time. We're not going to enter the Listener's Choice again after this year because, quite frankly, it's just a lot of work and we're probably going to do something else next year. We might still do something crazy and just do it for charity or something.
Starting point is 00:02:40 So go and vote for us at thebritishpodcastawards.com and we'll go spend a night in a haunted house and film the entire thing and also give you a bonus episode of your choice in the month that the podcast awards rolls around which I believe is September so that sounds right sounds about right so go do that and remember to verify your vote and now let's get on with today's episode because there is so much to get through. And we're going to pick up exactly where we left off last week. It goes without saying, look at the title, Good People.
Starting point is 00:03:14 It is part two of whatever we have decided to name this. Go listen to part one, otherwise this will make even less sense than last week's episode probably made in class. So we're going to pick up exactly where we left off last week. The Gilgo Beach murders, or Long Island serial killer case, had long been ignored within the Suffolk County Police Department. First came Jimmy Burke, who was placed in charge of the investigation and made chief of police a few days after Shannon Gilbert's remains were found. He actively obstructed the investigation, removing the FBI from having any
Starting point is 00:03:46 involvement in the case, not following up on any leads, and outright shutting down any detective work. Why did he do all of that? Was he, as some have suspected over the years, involved in the killings? I don't think so. Burke was involved with the shady world of sex work on Long Island. He slept with sex workers, he was a drug addict, and he went to those weird sex parties on Oak Beach. And he was probably involved in a lot of underhanded criminal activities, which is likely why he wanted the FBI as far away from his patch as possible. But during the FBI probe into Burke for the Christopher Loeb case,
Starting point is 00:04:21 they turned his life inside out to convict him. And if there had been any hint of him being involved in the Lisk case, the FBI would have found it then. So we don't think he was involved. But he is, as we said last week, as bent as a copper can get. When Burke was eventually jailed, people thought, phew, maybe with a new person in charge we might finally get some answers. But, sadly, no such luck. And yes, new investigators had a lot of cleaning up to do following Burke into such a complex case. And it's not as if they got a clear and succinct handover. But strangely, the new police commissioner and the new DA, following Tom Spoter's conviction,
Starting point is 00:05:05 just seemed to spend all of their time publicly arguing about whether they had one killer on their hands or multiple. And while that is a legitimate question, the way they were gunning for each other in full view of the public was alarming. Because now that they've arrested Rex Huriman, you can see how any good defence attorney will jump straight on this public spat. If even the officials couldn't agree if there was one killer or multiple, how can the jury be sure that Rex Huriman is the guy? We've seen this time and time again. In terms of like any sort of serial killing case in particular, you never ever want to introduce the idea that somebody else could be involved because then it diminishes the possibility that your prime suspect is solely involved. So this is dangerous. Remember the defence only
Starting point is 00:05:51 needs to introduce beyond reasonable doubt. This public infighting was also absolutely a window into the serious dysfunction that was still plaguing the investigation post-Burke. So while some people think that between 2017 and 2021, after Burke was out of the picture, the List case was this amazing high-tech investigation, we've got to tell you guys, it just wasn't. And for some reason, they kept a lot of information secret. Information which could have helped them gain vital leads. For example, they only told the public about the now infamous belts that were found binding Maureen Raynard Barnes in 2020, 13 years after they had found her remains. And one of these leather belts had initials on it, reading either HM or WH. They also didn't clarify that the burlap on the Gilgo Beach 4 was duck hunting camouflage
Starting point is 00:06:47 burlap. And a bunch of people hounded this nursery owner on Long Island who actually ended up killing himself the day after Shannon's body was found. But there was no evidence against him whatsoever. Only the fact that he had easy access to burlap, possibly. Which, as it turns out, wasn't even the right kind of burlap in the first place. I know. And look, I know we're saying like it was ridiculous that the SCPD, even after Burke, kept all of this information that could have got them leads. Like it's got a fucking belt with initials on it. Release that to the public, someone might recognise it. And the whole burlap thing they never clarify what type it is and look before anybody like messages me like well that guy was a bad
Starting point is 00:07:31 guy anyway i don't care there was no evidence that he had anything to do with shannon gilbert's murder or any of those murders and they even do it in the killing season that documentary we mentioned last week they go to long island they try find burlap and the only place they can find it is at a nursery and i don't mean like a kid's nursery i mean like a plant nursery and so like it must have been this nursery owner let's hound him let's get him guys and then he fucking kills himself the day after shannon's body's found and then everyone's like oh he did it even more look he's killed himself and i'm like no he's he's not. And you guys didn't make it better. So on one hand, I'm like,
Starting point is 00:08:08 they didn't release this information. On the other hand, I'm like, the public can't be trusted with this information because they go and fucking hound people to death. But anyway, then in November 2021, a new DA, Ray Tierney, was elected. And he clearly stated that the List case was going to be his top priority.
Starting point is 00:08:28 And you know what? I have to hand it to Ray Tierney. The new task force that he assembled sat down for their first meeting on the 15th of February 2022. And a month later, on the 14th of March, they had Rex Huriman on their radar. And a year later, they had an arrest. And look, we all know serial killer cases are the hardest to solve. And some people may have even balked at the question we asked at the top of last week's episode when we were like, why did it take so long to catch this man? Because people can be like, he's a fucking serial killer who killed people he had no
Starting point is 00:09:00 connection to. That is hard to catch. Because I felt the same way when I heard people asking that. But honestly, looking at all of the evidence that SCPD had, this case could and should have been solved years ago if they had had a competent police force acting on it. As we go through the evidence that this new task force used to arrest Rex Hurman in 2023, you will see that a lot of what they used was already there. This unit have just done a very good job in piecing it all together and actually following up on leads. Even the DNA evidence that many people would tout and be like, well, that's the reason nobody caught him before was because of the DNA evidence. No, that could all have been tested four years ago.
Starting point is 00:09:46 While yes, DNA technology has massively improved over the years, the ability to run mitochondrial DNA testing on hairs, which, spoilers, has been pivotal in this case, has been around since the early 2000s. So, if you know anything about this case, you'll be like, but the bail document, why haven't they spoken about the bail document yet? Well, we're about to. We're going to go through the 33-page bail document that was released alongside Rex Huriman's arrest last month, because it is an example of great police work. And of course, Rex Huriman deserves a fair trial. There isn't a person on earth who
Starting point is 00:10:20 doesn't, but the evidence against him is extremely compelling i hate his name it's so annoying to say here i'm in here i'm in here i'm in what and also oh my god one of my friends whose baby shower i went to like a few weeks ago we're talking about baby names and she's like oh i'm not superstitious these are the names i want but me and my partner are arguing about it and her top name is rex and now i'm like oh no oh dear i know that's the thing like i don't think it's a superstition thing it's more like the second you tell anyone they're just going to tell you what a dog shit name it is the minute you tell me i'm going to be like oh he killed 12 women back in 08 my godson's name is tet
Starting point is 00:11:00 you know what you just gotta go for the obvious and then be like yeah i'm what and what and the name is baby gacy this is baby john wayne and they're having a girl in november so just fucking call it dorothea puente why not ethnic ethnic, or Rose West. Let's start with the truck and Amber Costello. Because it is this connection that pointed the task force squarely in the direction of Rex. Horrible man, horrible name, Huriman. So, get this.
Starting point is 00:11:45 The Ontario Liberals elected Bonnie Crombie as their new leader. Bonnie who? I just sent you her profile. Check out her place in the Hamptons. Huh, fancy. She's a big carbon tax supporter, yeah? Oh yeah. Check out her record as mayor.
Starting point is 00:11:57 Oh, get out of here. She even increased taxes in this economy. Yeah, higher taxes, carbon taxes. She sounds expensive. Bonnie Crombie and the Ontario Liberals. They just don't get it. That'll cost you. A message from the Ontario PC Party. They say Hollywood is where dreams are made.
Starting point is 00:12:19 A seductive city where many flock to get rich, be adored, and capture America's heart. But when the spotlight turns off, fame, fortune, and lives can disappear in an instant. When TV producer Roy Radin was found dead in a canyon near L.A. in 1983, there were many questions surrounding his death. The last person seen with him was Lainey Jacobs, a seductive cocaine dealer who desperately wanted to be part of the Hollywood elite. Together, they were trying to break into the movie industry. But things took a dark turn when a million dollars worth of cocaine and cash went missing. From Wondery comes a new season of the hit show Hollywood and Crime, The Cotton Club Murder.
Starting point is 00:12:58 Follow Hollywood and Crime, The Cotton Club Murder on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. On the 1st of September 2010, Amber Costello had a John come to her home. And immediately, this is odd. Why would a sex worker allow a client to come to her own home? Well, as it happens, Amber and her housemate, Dave Shaw, had a ruse that they ran on some of these men. Amber would invite these potential clients to the house. Dave would then turn up, acting like an angry boyfriend, and chase the men away.
Starting point is 00:13:41 These men would already have paid up front, so Shaw and Amber got to keep the money, and Amber didn't have to have any of the sex. So they run this ruse on the man on the 1st of September, and he left after telling Shawl, tell her I'll give her a call, which is a bold move to say to the guy who's acting like the angry boyfriend. Yeah, right. And he sticks to his word, because the next day Amber got a text from this man saying that wasn't very nice. I get a credit for next time. And so the pair arranged to meet that evening. Amber left the house and was never seen alive again. Shaw went to
Starting point is 00:14:19 the police and described the man as white, large, about 6'4 to 6'6 maybe, in his mid-40s, with dark bushy hair and big oval-style 1970s-type glasses. He also said that this man looked ogre-like. Shaw noticed a dark first-generation Chevrolet Avalanche truck parked in the driveway the night before when the man had come to visit Amber. And we know that it was the same man who was in the house on the 1st of September that Amber went to meet the next day. And then she vanished. And we know this not just because of Dave Shaw's testimony, but also because of the mobile phone data. Amber had been receiving texts from this man from a burner phone. Messages had come in in
Starting point is 00:15:03 the days leading up to her disappearance, and then they had stopped completely after she vanished. During the time that many of these messages were sent, the burner phone was in West Ampteyville and Massapequa Park. The day Amber disappeared, the same burner phone had contacted her to arrange the second meet-up. And this time, the messages had been sent while the phone was in Midtown Manhattan. These locations will become very important later on,
Starting point is 00:15:31 so please put a pin in these for now, we will come back to them. And on the evening of the 2nd of September, when Amber left to meet the man who'd been at the house the day before, the Bonaphone cell site location placed it in West Babylon, where Amber lived. So it clearly showed that this man lived and worked elsewhere. But he was in the vicinity of Amber's house on the 1st of September, when he'd been rused, and he was also in the vicinity when Amber went to the meetup the following day, from which she'd never return. And Dave Shaw, who was at home when Amber left on the 2nd of September, saw a dark truck, similar to the one from the night day, from which she'd never return. And Dave Shaw, who was at home when Amber left on the 2nd of September, saw a dark truck, similar to the one from the night before,
Starting point is 00:16:10 drive past the house, coming from the direction Amber had just walked towards. Unbelievably, Amber left her own phone behind, so police couldn't track that. But this truck, the task force concluded, was driven by Amber's killer. And again, all of this information already existed. Dave Shaw told the police this way back in 2010 when Amber vanished. But no one bothered to follow it up. So the new task force checked for Chevy Avalanches registered in and around Massapequa Park.
Starting point is 00:16:44 It isn't a common vehicle, so it did stand out. And they quickly found that one such truck had been registered at the time of the Gilgo Beach murders to a Massapequa Park local, Rex Huriman. Someone who also just so happened to match Dave Shaw's physical description of Amber's killer. Huriman is in fact 6'6", and huge. Oh, and he also just so happened to work in Midtown Manhattan,
Starting point is 00:17:13 the location that the burner phone Amber had been contacted from often pinged. Using this, investigators were able to get in excess of 300 subpoenas and search warrants to dig up more potential evidence connected to Mr. Huriman. And there is a lot that they found. So let's start with the phones. All of the Gilgo Beach Four had been contacted by different burner phones in the days leading up to their disappearances. After Maureen Brainard Barnes, Melissa Barthelemy and Megan Waterman vanished, each of their phones remained active for a while afterwards. Maureen was last seen on the 9th of July 2007 in New York City. Her phone made two outbound calls to her voicemail three days after she was last seen or heard from. Melissa was last seen on the 10th of July 2009, again in New York City.
Starting point is 00:18:07 Cell site records show that after Melissa went missing, her phone repeatedly moved between Massapequa Park and Midtown Manhattan, where Rex Uriman lived and where Rex Uriman worked. Melissa's phone was also used to check her own voicemails after she vanished. And on five occasions, starting about a week after Melissa was last seen, her phone was used to make taunting calls to her 15-year-old sister Amanda. In these calls, the man called Amanda by her name and even knew what she looked like. He asked Amanda if she knew what her sister was doing and called Melissa a whore.
Starting point is 00:18:56 He then told Amanda that he had raped Melissa and killed her. And he also asked Amanda if she was a half-breed. These calls were coming from Midtown Manhattan and they all came in about the middle of the day and the cell site locations placed them just 87 feet away from Rex Huriman's architectural office. So he's calling Amanda, Melissa's 15 year old sister, on his fucking lunch break while he's at work. Now we don't know the manner in which the Gilgo Beach Four were killed. We also don't know if Rex Huriman did it. Allegedly, allegedly, allegedly. But this tells you, whoever did this is a fucking sadist. Then we've got Megan Waterman.
Starting point is 00:19:37 She vanished on the 6th of June 2010. Last seen, leaving a holiday inn in Haupage. Her mobile phone's last known location was on the night she disappeared. It pinged in Massapequa Park, right near the residence of one Rex Huriman. Fascinating, but horrible stuff. But all these phone pings really prove is that these burner phones and the missing women's phones were active in locations Huriman might spend time but he's also not the only person in midtown Manhattan or in Massapequa or in West Babylon etc etc
Starting point is 00:20:13 so the task force needed to place him there with the phones but the problem was cell site records so records of where Huriman's own personal phone was pinging at the same time for some reason, don't exist anymore. This is the thing. By the time the task force get to this, it's been over a decade. And I don't know how long mobile phone companies keep that kind of record for. If they had done it at the time, they could have got it. Now, apparently, they're saying those records don't exist anymore. And maybe it's different now, but maybe from back then then they're just saying we don't have those records i mean maybe but they're not writing them down with a quill on parchment are they like i just don't believe that like metadata isn't somewhere but you know what do i do i'm just an idiot in a dress however all was not lost investigators matched up huriman's american
Starting point is 00:21:05 express records to show that wherever those burner phones and those missing women's phones were being used huriman was always nearby at the time spending money on his amex it's always amex isn't it like nobody ever rings up fucking barkley card and it's like uh maybe just nefarious people and also they have the best customer service so like if you're ringing anyone else you're on the phone for seven hours they really do this is not sponsored by American Express but we have another interesting point for you there wasn't one instance where the phones of the missing women and the burner phones were active that Heuriman could be definitively proven to be in a different location.
Starting point is 00:21:47 As we said, he's nearby every single time. Still not enough. A good defence lawyer could tear that shit up. I take your point. So good news. Investigators located a number of online accounts and yet more burner cell phones, linked irrefutably to Rex Huriman. There were two burner phones in particular,
Starting point is 00:22:06 one that we'll call burner A, which had been used to access Tinder under the name Andrew Roberts, Andrew being Rex Huriman's middle name. And this Tinder account had been set up with the email address springfieldman9ataol.com. But the springfieldman9 at aol.com account had been created in January 2011 using a different name. Homer Simpson. John Springfield. And it had also been set up using another burner cell phone that we'll call burner B. So now you can see that burner A and burner B are linked to this Tinder account and linked to these email addresses because they've all been used in various ways to set up multiple different accounts, but they are linked. That is important. Burner B had also been used to set up another burner email.
Starting point is 00:22:58 Thwark080672 at gmail.com, which we will from now on call the Thwark email address, because that is a terrible email address to keep reading out loud. And this was created not under the name Homer Simpson, but as close as you're going to get to Rex Hurman's version of Max Power, it was created under the fake name Thomas Hawke. And a search warrant for the Thwark email revealed that this account had been used to conduct thousands of searches of pretty grim things, and I have very helpfully Hannah
Starting point is 00:23:26 given you the list to read out. I know you have but I've done the same thing to you so many times that this was coming my way eventually. It's horrible. I mean it's like not the worst I've ever seen but some of them are pretty horrible. All right let's just get it done. Mistress Long Island, Mature Escorts Manhattan, Girl Begging for Rape Porn. Teen Girl Begging for Rape Porn. Pretty Girl with Bruised Face Porn. Torture Redhead Porn. Ten Year Old School Girl.
Starting point is 00:23:56 Fucking hell. This one's the worst one. Hentai Plump Pussy Lips Cut Off Porn. Skinny Redhead Tied Up Porn. Short Fat Girl Tied Up Porn. Tied Up and Raped Porn. There's more. 10-year-old blonde hair girl, chubby 10-year-old girl, black girl 10 years old, girl with face beat up, chubby 10-year-old girl crying, 13-year-old school girl, age 12 child girl with blonde hair and blue eyes, blonde hair girl, young, depressed, teen girl, oiled bodies, pre-teen, girl with makeup, and finally, in at number 26, nude slave girls. Excellent. Yeah. I'm so glad I'm not a man. Yes, grim. Grim, grim, grim. So that's done.
Starting point is 00:24:55 So this Thwark email address was also used to conduct in excess of 200 searches between March 2022 and June 2023. That is the exact time period between when the new Gilgo task force was set up under Ray Tierney and Huriman's own arrest. So as you can see, as soon as this new task force sits down for their first meeting, he seems to be a little bit rattled. And these searches were all about things like serial killers. For example, he searches a lot about John Bittroff, who was the serial killer we mentioned last week, the disappearances and murders of Maureen Brainard Barnes and Melissa Barthelome and Megan Waterman and Amber Costello,
Starting point is 00:25:37 and the investigations into their murders. There were also extensive and obsessively repeated searches for pictures of the Gilgo Beach Fort and their families, as well as countless very specific questions like why could law enforcement not trace the calls made by the Long Island serial killer? Why hasn't the Long Island serial killer been caught? The Long Island serial killer investigation, how new phone technology may be the key break in case. And maybe you're thinking what we're thinking.
Starting point is 00:26:08 Hold on a second. All the evidence shows so far is that investigators could map Rex Huriman's movements, using his Amex, not his phone, to the burner phones and the missing women's phones. And yes, you can link these burner phones and Thwark and Springfield Man emails to some very, very weird searches. But it's just not really enough. And it doesn't necessarily make you a killer. No. So how are the new task force going to link all of these things and the murders irrefutably to Rex Uriman?
Starting point is 00:26:42 Well, he makes a mistake. He used his own card to pay for Tinder on burner phone A. And a selfie of Rex Huriman was sent from burner phone B, the one that's linked to the Thwark email. And that selfie was sent to a sex worker. That's the thing, it's not even just a picture of him. It's a selfie in the mirror. From that phone to another phone. If you're going to the effort of two burner phones like cop yourself on a bit you know i also was listening to this defense attorney who was like look normally
Starting point is 00:27:16 i'd say something but i read this bell document and i'm like if i was his defense attorney i'd be like looks like you're in trouble and he was, can you even really call it a burner phone? Because a burner phone is only a burner phone if it's not connected to you. If you're using it to send pictures of yourself to sex workers and using your own personal card to pay for Tinder off it, is it even a burner phone anymore? Which is a good question. On top of that, Rex Herriman was also spotted by investigators who were surveilling him going to a phone shop in midtown Manhattan and topping up both Burnaphone A and B. So maybe you're thinking, well, of course he's Googling about the serial killer from Long Island. He's from Long Island as well. Everybody would have been Googling the same thing.
Starting point is 00:27:58 And as for the gross sex searches, again, as Saru said, weird, doesn't make him a killer necessarily. And if you are thinking those things, you would be right. But we have to consider the totality of the evidence. As Saru said, weird doesn't make him a killer necessarily. And if you are thinking those things, you would be right. But we have to consider the totality of the evidence. So let's go through it. He has a fascination with the List case. And more importantly, perhaps, the victims and the victims' families. And he had an interest in violent pornography,
Starting point is 00:28:28 including CSAM, so child sexual abuse images. He regularly used burner phones and burner emails to contact sex workers. His home and place of work matched the movements of the murdered women's phones and contact burners. He drove a truck that matched what an eyewitness saw during the disappearance of Amber Costello. And he also matches a physical description of the man Amber went to meet the night she vanished. And that's not it. There's more. The DNA evidence. Multiple hairs were found on the Gilgo Beach victims. One female hair was discovered on Maureen, two female hairs were found stuck to the tape used to bind Megan, and another female hair was again trapped in the tape used on Amber. At the time the bodies were discovered, technology didn't allow for DNA testing on hairs like these
Starting point is 00:29:09 because there wasn't any root tissue attached to them. So all forensics could say was that the hairs looked similar, and they were probably from a Caucasian woman. Thankfully though, the hairs were preserved, and in July 2022, under the new task force, they were retested for mitochondrial DNA, which exists in the hair shaft itself. So you don't need the root. And these tests were able to confirm that the hairs found on all three of those victims belonged to one woman, who was not one of the victims, nor was she related to any of them. And the police had a hunch that it might have been a hair accidentally left behind by the killer.
Starting point is 00:29:48 Not that the killer was a woman but that the hair may have belonged to someone close to the killer and he had transferred the hairs to the victims from his clothes at the crime scene. So as soon as they got the confirmation of it not being a victim's hair the police went and took a bunch of rubbish from Huriman's bins. We've talked about this before. This is called abandonment evidence.
Starting point is 00:30:11 They can legally do this. And they tested the female DNA from the hairs against the DNA profiles from the rubbish. And bingo. The hairs on the victim belonged to a woman who likely lived in Rex Huriman's house, because her DNA was all over the rubbish. There was also one male hair found in the bottom of the burlap sack that Megan Waterman's body had been put in. The task force needed a clean match, so they followed Huriman. And on the 26th of January 2023, standing outside of his office in Midtown Manhattan,
Starting point is 00:30:47 Huriman ate a pizza and threw the box, complete with discarded crusts, into a public bin. Officers nabbed it and boom, it was a match to Rex Huriman. And once they arrested him, they took his wife, Asa Ellerop's hair
Starting point is 00:31:02 and tested that against the female hairs found on the victims. And once again, a definitive match. We already know that the task force had had Huriman on their radar for a long time. But they waited until the 13th of July 2023 before they moved in for their arrest. And that arrest, as we told you last week, was carried out in front of Huriman's architectural offices. Why they did it here rather than
Starting point is 00:31:30 a dawn raid at his home became clear when we discovered that Huriman, who had 90 registered firearms, actually had a stockpile of nearly 300 weapons in his basement at his home in Massapequa Park. So they weren't going to take that kind of risk. No, they say very clearly they're like,
Starting point is 00:31:46 yeah, we were never going to go to his house because you're going to have some sort of fucking Waco situation with this guy. When Huriman was arrested, he also had Burner Phone B on him. And when he was accosted, allegedly he cried and said that he didn't do it. Now, since he's been in jail, Heuriman has apparently been quiet and compliant. His defense attorney, on the other hand, has been very vocal about how his client is innocent. But honestly, like, the guy's got to do what he's got to do. He is a defense attorney, but good luck to him. The task force has already handed over to Heuriman's defense team
Starting point is 00:32:21 2,500 documents of evidence in the initial discovery phase. Apparently it's something like three terabytes of evidence. Now I googled that and I was like how many documents is that and it was something of bazillions but then I realized like a lot of it would also be pictures. So they've got a lot to sift through and it's a lot of yikes because what was in the Bell document is no doubt just scratching the surface of what investigators have against Hureman like we told you guys when we did the Brian Koberger case they do not put out their full case in the bell document why would they they just need to put enough for the arrest to be okayed this is just a tiny fraction of what they've got against him.
Starting point is 00:33:11 Harvard is the oldest and richest university in America. But when a social media-fueled fight over Harvard and its new president broke out last fall, that was no protection. Claudine Gay is now gone. We've exposed the DEI regime, and there's much more to come. This is The Harvard Plan, a special series from the Boston Globe and WNYC's On the Media. To listen, subscribe to On the Media wherever you get your podcasts. You don't believe in ghosts? I get it.
Starting point is 00:33:42 Lots of people don't. I didn't either, until I came face to face with them. Ever since that moment, hauntings, spirits, and the unexplained have consumed my entire life. I'm Nadine Bailey. I've been a ghost tour guide for the past 20 years. I've taken people along with me into the shadows, uncovering the macabre tales that linger in the darkness, and inside some of the most haunted houses, hospitals, prisons, and more. Join me every week on my podcast, Haunted Canada, as we journey through terrifying and bone-chilling stories of the unexplained. Search for Haunted Canada on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you find your favorite podcasts.
Starting point is 00:34:42 So who is Rex Huriman? We've already told you that he's a 59-year-old architect who owns and runs his own business in Midtown, and he's done that since 1987. He's been married to his second wife, Asa Ellerup, for more than 27 years. But after Huriman's arrest, Asa was granted a no-contest divorce within days.
Starting point is 00:35:02 Unsurprising. They have two adult children, 27-year-old Victoria, who works at Kureman's business, and 33-year-old Christopher, who's got special needs. The family all lived in Massapequa Park, an area of Long Island popular with commuters for its rural feel, yet close proximity to New York City. The street that the Kuremans lived on is tree-lined, quiet, residential, and there's loads of well-maintained houses and perfectly pristine lawns. Rex's house was the one that stood out. And not in the way that you might expect an architect's house to stand out.
Starting point is 00:35:37 He had actually bought the house from his mother in 1994, because it was his childhood home. And honestly, it's nothing short of a dump. The house is in such obviously bad condition that if you watch videos or look at pictures of like the front of it even you can see that the porch is being held up by spare two by fours like it is completely run down and inside the house was a mess dated and lying in complete disrepair. The only part of the house that seemed to have had any work, time or money invested in it was the basement. Huriman even allegedly took time off work to install a concrete lined vault down there. Now a lot of media outlets have gone with the headlines, soundproof room found in Huriman
Starting point is 00:36:22 basement. But the police have rolled back on this due to the obvious subtext that it implies that he was holding or killing victims down there and I don't know what the police know but I don't think we have enough public information to say one way or another whether he was doing that what he kept down in that basement is a load of weird shit that we're going to go on to discuss and all of his fucking guns and the only other thing we can say as to kill sites and what he was getting up to in various houses is that this house in Massapequa Park was not Rex Huriman's only property. Huriman owns homes in Las Vegas and South Carolina as well apparently he bought the home in South Carolina with his brother Craig, and they apparently planned to retire there one day. When this house was being searched, photographs from the scene did show that a medical officer was there. It would be unusual
Starting point is 00:37:15 for a medical officer to be at a search if there were no human remains or suspected human remains to have been found. And it would make sense. It's pretty unlikely that the killer would take victims back to his own house though, especially in a busy area like Massapequa Park. But his home in South Carolina is a lot more rural. The killer of the Gilgo Beach Fall bound his victims. That would have taken time and space. So it makes sense that there was a meat point, a kill location and the dump site off Ocean Parkway. The garden of Huriman's home in Massapequa Park, complete with a no warrant, no entry sign that he had propped up outside of his house, has also been excavated and countless boxes of evidence have been removed. Some of the most noteworthy being what police found in his cement basement, including a painting of a girl with two black eyes, the 272 firearms, and a child-sized doll in a
Starting point is 00:38:18 glass box. And this doll caught a lot of people's attention because it is alleged, and again, I honestly guys, I cannot confirm this 100%. I have seen pictures of it. The pictures exist. I will share a link to the pictures and we will also post it on our socials. But it is alleged that following the discovery of the Gilgo Beach Falls remains, someone left a doll on each of the women's grave markers so after they were found there's like
Starting point is 00:38:48 little wooden crosses that are put up by the families that say their names on and somebody apparently allegedly turned up and mysteriously left these dolls on these graves now these dolls were apparently taken by the police because obviously they know people who come to the scene are just as likely suspects as they are you you know, well-wishers. And if you look at these pictures of these dolls, it is hard not to see the similarity between these dolls and the one found in Huriman's basement inside that glass box. Did he, before the police were able to take them,
Starting point is 00:39:23 manage to take one of the dolls and keep it as a trophy? Purely speculation at this point. Police also scoured two storage units that were owned by Hurriman and these storage units were in Amityville and a fun fact for you, Rex Hurriman's home is less than three miles from the DeFeo Amityville Horror House. Honestly you've got John Bittroff, you've got Rex Uriman allegedly, you've got Joel Rifkin and the DeFeo's like this fucking area. And I feel like in the killing season the documentary like Zeman the guy who makes it who also made Cropsey like we said last week he's from Long Island it's like he's desperately trying to explain why so many serial killers or like mass murderers are coming out of Long Island.
Starting point is 00:40:06 And like, obviously he knows it better than I do, but I feel like he's just kind of like, oh, it's the pressure of this like pressure pot of trying to keep up with the Joneses and being so close to New York. And like, maybe, but it is weird. It is very inexplicable why there are so many in this one area. Maybe it's the fumes blowing over from the city. Quite possibly.
Starting point is 00:40:24 So yeah, lots of weird stuff going on on Long Island. But we have to just stick with Uriman today. An odd thing about him was obviously he's a reasonably successful architect. One would have to be to run an office in Midtown. That shit's expensive. So why did he live in such a run-down house? Some people have theorized that it's because of his upbringing. So he wants to maintain the house in the same way that his parents did. And perhaps that lets him hold on to or perhaps master some childhood trauma. Yeah, there's definitely like something going on with his dad, for sure. Like, I don't know, there is a random youtube interview with rex herman which i believe has been taken down now but there are people reacting to it so you can still find it and like watch body
Starting point is 00:41:13 language experts talk about it etc etc and it's really weird because there is no video footage of rex herman ever ever ever ever before in his 59 years of life But one video that was shot and filmed and put up on YouTube of him being interviewed about being an architectural man that was shot like a few weeks before he was arrested. Now there's people out there that suspect that the FBI themselves sent this guy in there to do the interview. Maybe. I don't know. He certainly seems to find a lot of things that Rex Yerman is saying funny that are not funny. But then maybe he's just trying to be a good interviewer. But it was basically with this company called Bonjour Realty. And it is so fucking boring. And if Rex Huriman wasn't arrested for being literally lisk,
Starting point is 00:41:56 no one would ever watch that shit. But it's basically just a guy who goes in there and is like questioning him. And he's like making all these jokes of comparing himself to a hammer. And he talks about his dad. And his dad was an aerospace engineer right and he says you know he put satellites into space etc and he taught me how to build furniture and there's definitely a like shift in his behavior when he talks about his dad again we're gonna have to wait years before we find out anything about his upbringing or his background but i definitely got the feeling of i underachieved compared to my father that doesn't make you a serial killer a lot of people feel that
Starting point is 00:42:28 way but there's something going on there and then when you put it together with the childhood house I don't know so perhaps it's that Rex was too scared to change the house even though his dad is now dead and his mum doesn't live there anymore But we're gonna have to wait years to find out. Until then, we just can't say for sure. Although, less interestingly, it simply just might have been because whilst Rex had a good job and a successful practice, he wasn't in great shape financially. Asa even used food stamps to do the family shopping. And Huriman and his wife owe 81,500 American dollar edus in personal income taxes to the state. Bizarrely, Kierman has, over the years, also filed several lawsuits in New York where he accused drivers of injuring him in collisions. It's worth a shot.
Starting point is 00:43:20 I think that's his whole philosophy. And while some people have said that Rex Kieran was so normal, we had no idea. Others did note that something was seriously off with this guy. For example, Rex Uriman did things like steal oranges from Whole Foods. He regularly burned rubbish in his garden, which according to the neighbours was not something anyone in that area ever did. Two weeks before he was arrested, he also harassed a woman in the local park to the point that she actually filed a police complaint about him. And in 2006, he scared
Starting point is 00:43:53 the shit out of an intern at his own business. Apparently, he called this intern over to his desk one day, saying, let me show you something. And then he played for this kid a video of a man in a police interview room shooting himself in the head. Hurman allegedly found this whole thing hilarious and then proceeded to tell the shocked intern how many guns he owned. I mean, look, the
Starting point is 00:44:17 oranges, the harassing the jogger in the park, all of this kind of stuff, it kind of happens quite close to his arrest and you do wonder, because he starts googling about the task force basically immediately as soon as they're formed is he under increasing amounts of stress because he's worried that they're on him for the first time there is a competent police investigation into this case but the intern thing happens in 2006 so he is a weird guy apparently he was also a total fucking jobs worth i mean obviously being a serial killer is worse than a jobs work but i just can't stand it i know he is a total fucking
Starting point is 00:44:52 jobs worth again lots of people compare him to btk dennis raider and like dennis raider himself has even written a letter from prison saying that rex uraman is the clone of him we're going to talk about that later but like I literally do not think they are. Again, we'll come to that in a bit. But BTK, also a total fucking jobs worth. So, not saying everyone who is is a serial killer, but they're probably a bit of a wrong end. There's a Venn diagram.
Starting point is 00:45:16 Yeah, there's a Venn diagram. So, yeah, Huriman apparently got into constant altercations on the train he took from Long Island to New York every day, telling other commuters off for doing things he deemed to be against the rules. That's the train you get every day. I have been on commuter trains where you get the same train every day and you look at the same people. Why would you start a fight on that train?
Starting point is 00:45:35 I don't know. This is what I mean. He's not a normal guy. He was willing to put himself in these confrontational situations. I think there's a commuter train that goes from Brighton into London, and every Christmas they have a Christmas dinner on the train carriage because everyone sits in the same place. Oh think there's a commuter train that goes from Brighton into London and every Christmas they have a Christmas dinner on the train carriage because everyone sits in the same place.
Starting point is 00:45:49 It is nice, isn't it? And now we come on to the Port Jefferson date. A sex worker called Nicole Brass went on a date in 2015 with Rex Huriman. During this, Nicole claims that Huriman just wanted to speak to her about the murders. She claims that he was misty-eyed, like he was watching a videotape of the murders and enjoying every moment of it.
Starting point is 00:46:10 Nicole completely freaked out and left. Clearly, this is all about power and control for Rex Huriman. You see that, you see it, right? You see that if this is him, allegedly, allegedly, allegedly, there's only so long he can keep the darkness bottled up. The fucked up shit. He can put on the front of being this family man he's got these two kids he's got his wife he's got his business in midtown manhattan but every now and again it leaks out and he can't stop himself so sure as you can see the evidence against against Rex Huriman is astonishingly strong. And it is probably, like we said at the top of the show last week,
Starting point is 00:46:52 as close as you can get to a slam dunk. Now let's discuss something I know has been contentious. Police found Rex Huriman's wife's hairs on three of the victims. And Asa had been married to him for 27 years. So people out there are of course asking, was she involved? Now personally, I think that is highly unlikely. Hairs transfer easily. And if Jürgen did bring any of his victims to his house, again we don't know, it's a big if on that until we know more, but if he did did hairs getting on them would have been even easier. Also the police have confirmed that on multiple occasions when the Gilgo Beach victims went missing Asa and her kids were either in Iceland which is Asa's home country or out of state.
Starting point is 00:47:38 Asa and the kids went to Iceland for two weeks every summer without wrecks and this seems to have been his killing window because Because, come on, we told you guys already, the Gilgo Beach Four all went missing in the summer months. They all went missing in July. And come on, it would be fake to pretend like there aren't cases in the past where so many times a serial killer has been arrested and the wife had no idea what was going on. I don't think she was involved. She's a weird person i'm not gonna say she's not she is but it doesn't mean she knew what he was doing no some people say that allegedly asa said it is what it is when police told her that her husband had been arrested
Starting point is 00:48:20 on suspicion of being the long island serial killer, which obviously implies that she wasn't shocked and knew all about it. And again, like, I say allegedly here because, like, we don't know for sure if she did say that, but she has said that since. And I'm like, stop saying that, Asa. Your husband has been arrested for being a serial killer. Please stop saying it is what it is. But again, I don't feel like she has the strongest social skills.
Starting point is 00:48:43 Right. And obviously it's pretty probable that Asa knew that her husband was a bad guy. She was with him for 27 years and they had kids. And I'm sure that she and her kids were victims of his as well. Yeah, I mean, if you're starting fights with people on commuter trains because they're not following the rules, imagine what he's like at home behind closed doors. And while I think that Asa's probably being quite unwise at the moment mounting attacks against police and forensic teams for turning their house upside down,
Starting point is 00:49:10 essentially saying that their rights are being violated, I can't really imagine how that must feel. Yeah, they basically, obviously as you can imagine, the forensics teams have just gone in there and torn this house apart looking for evidence. they have to do that they have to follow their job they have to do that but at the same time ace is always like my house has been destroyed but i think it makes you look quite tone deaf yeah to be saying that like when she says things like you know my kids video games have been broken into pieces and they're like well john ray who's the attorneys for the victims is like how many pieces were the women that your husband probably murdered left in so I don't think she's doing herself any
Starting point is 00:49:51 favors no but another thing that we have to consider is that recently it was discovered that Asa is undergoing treatment for breast and skin cancer so she's got cancer she's undergoing invasive treatment her house is being torn apart and her husband of almost three decades has been arrested for being a serial killer. It's a bad time to be Asa. Yes. So let's leave that behind and let's now quickly come back to the point that we raised last episode. Are the 11 victims out on Ocean Parkway the work of one man or multiple? Now we discussed this at length last episode so we are not going to rehash it all here but it is worth mentioning that Rex Huriman,
Starting point is 00:50:31 as far as we can see from the bail documents and granted this is not all of the evidence that the police have against him, but in this bail document it suggests that he obsessively searched the internet for anything to do with the Gilgo Beach Four and their families. Again, I'm not saying this is everything. We don't know that he wasn't googling the other victims. But if he was only googling those four victims, it kind of makes it seem less likely that he killed the others because why wouldn't he care just as much about them?
Starting point is 00:51:01 I don't know. Also, police have only recently released the identity of Fire Island Jane Doe. We now know it's Karen Vergata. But they have known her true identity for a while. Karen's dad died back in December 2022 and the police had told him that they had found his missing daughter
Starting point is 00:51:18 after almost three decades. So they kept it under wraps for almost a year that they knew who Karen really was. And we also know that they had been tracking Rex Huriman for over a year. If the task force could have connected Huriman and Karen, we might know by now. Again, we don't know what other information investigators have, because they are playing it all as they well should, very close to their chest. And then there is also the problem of it's not what you know, it's what you can prove in court. So even if the police suspect that Rex Huriman is indeed responsible for all of the murders out there,
Starting point is 00:51:55 minus Shannon Gilbert, because that just doesn't make any sense. That's too crazy to imagine that he was also at that sex party and killed Shannon Gilbert, but that he's responsible for all 10 other murders out there. They need to be able to prove it. Hence why at the time of recording this, the police still haven't even charged Rex Huriman with Maureen Brainard Barnes's murder, even though she's one of the Gilgo Beach Four and clearly seems to fit the pattern. Especially given the fact that Ray Tierney has stated on the record
Starting point is 00:52:22 that they believe the belt used to bind maureen remember the one that we told you about earlier with wh or hm stamped on it belongs to rex's granddad william hureman i know and again if you're gonna tell me it's nothing to do with how fucked up his family were why did he use his granddad's belt again it's a fruit of evil shit man yeah and maureen was the first victim of the Gilgo Beach Four group. And the reason they haven't charged him with Maureen Raynard Barnes' murder yet, but the other three, even though they clearly fit together as one, even though they know it's him if he killed the others,
Starting point is 00:52:56 is because there wasn't DNA or the DNA on Maureen was too degraded for them to be able to test. So I think if you introduce a weaker case into the mix, you stand to risk the whole thing falling apart. They've clearly only gone with the three that they feel the most solid about. So whether the police think he killed all of the 10 victims or not will basically depend on whether you see them continuing to look for a killer for the others after they prosecute Rex Huriman. Now, another question worth asking is, why did Rex Huriman stop? If the last victim was Amber Costello,
Starting point is 00:53:32 she was killed in 2010. Well, firstly, we don't know that he did stop. The remains of the Gilgo Beach four were discovered just three months after Amber was reported missing. So maybe Huriman got spooked and lay low for a while after his dump site was found. We also fucking knew that Dave Shaw saw him and saw his fucking
Starting point is 00:53:50 truck, but the police just didn't pay any attention. They could have caught him three months after Amber went missing. But then again, we don't know that he got spooked and he stopped because he could well just have moved his area of disposal, changed his MO, or altered the way he found his victims area of disposal, changed his MO, or altered the way
Starting point is 00:54:05 he found his victims. If so, Rex Huriman, if he is the killer, may well have carried on killing over the past 13 years. However, saying that, let's have a look at Huriman's age. He was 59 when he was arrested in July 2023. If he only killed the Gilgo Beach Four, he would have been 46 when he started. And that's just way too old. It's so old. If he killed the other victims, the oldest one dating back to 1996 being Karen Vergata, he would have been 32. Typically, serial killers start to kill on average in their late 20s, so 32 isn't a million miles away. And we also know that killers can stop when they have to. Dennis Rader, aka BTK, stopped killing for years when he became a father.
Starting point is 00:54:51 And in some interesting parallels, both Rader and Huriman were 59 when they were caught, and both of them had two kids. As Saru said, Rader has actually written a letter from prison saying that he thinks Rex Huriman is his clone. But that is just a narcissistic witch by dennis raider he just wants to be relevant anytime he has the opportunity to like rear his weird ugly little head up he takes that chance and they are different because huriman went
Starting point is 00:55:18 exclusively as far as we currently know after sex workers and dumped their remains on a desolate beach raider killed a mixture of people including entire families in their homes and he left them to be found. What's even more surprising with Rex Huriman is that police seem to have moved in for the arrest because they were worried about the risk he posed to the public. It appears the Huriman was once once again, after 13 years, it would seem, but then again, we don't know because nobody was fucking tracking him up until a year ago, in talks with sex workers, using burner phones. Was he getting
Starting point is 00:55:53 ready to kill again? If he was, that is highly, highly unusual. Not because he took a big gap and then started killing again, or was starting to think about killing again, but because, in a study carried out by the fbi they found that sexual homicide offenders tend to stop as they get older look at like d'angelo the golden state killer they find him he's just a fucking old man who's like mowing his lawn and he's like when they arrest him he's like i've got
Starting point is 00:56:20 a roast in the oven like they tend to stop when they're sexually motivated because the prowess goes, the desire goes and also the strength goes and their ability to do it like is dampened. And this study found that by the age of 55 when it comes to serial sexual homicide offenders less than one percent were still active by that age. 90% of these type of killer fit into the 19 to 45 age group, after which they slow down and stop altogether. And the fact that the Gilgo Beach Four were all killed when Huroman was already 46 makes him, if he is guilty, very rare, but also kind of suggests that that was his finale,
Starting point is 00:57:00 his grand finale, maybe in his head. But it certainly adds more fuel to the fire of the idea that they were not his only victims because he was so old by that point. So what else might the police have? There was a very specific request for information on Peaches a few months ago. So, much like Karen Vergata, some people are theorising that the police already know who she really was. And the thing is, identifying victims is the only way this case will be concluded. Whether Huriman is responsible for all of the bodies or whether there is another killer out there, it is only by finding out who the victims are that we can be certain. And Peaches
Starting point is 00:57:36 is an interesting victim, firstly because her child, Baby Doe, was found dead miles away from her. But both Baby Doe's body and Peach's torso were found wrapped in blankets. Web sleuths have done some great work discovering that these blankets were on sale in Rockville Centre, a mall near Hempstead, which is where Peach's torso was found. So maybe that could lead to more clues as to her killer.
Starting point is 00:58:01 And again, we're just going to keep saying this. Remember, remember, remember, remember, the police are withholding a lot of information. Until very, very recently, we didn't even know that they had DNA from the Gilgo Beach Fall. We didn't know about those hairs they had. The other interesting thing about Peaches is that if she was killed by the same man who killed the Gilgo Beach Fall, allegedly Rex Huriman, then it suggests that he used a different tactic to find her. Peaches, if we go with the theory that she was a sex worker, and I know we don't know who she is, but I don't think it's an outlandish theory given that basically everyone else out there was a sex worker. If we go with that theory, and she took her baby
Starting point is 00:58:40 with her to go meet this John, if we say that that's who killed her. That of course tragically does happen if a sex worker can't find someone to watch her baby and she needs to work. But given this fact, it seems highly unlikely that whoever this man was picked Peaches up on the street. It doesn't seem typical that Peaches would have been out on the street with her baby. It seems much more likely that this was some sort of like pre-arranged meetup. But in that case, how did they organize it? Peaches went missing in 1996. That's way too early for Craigslist and Backpage. They weren't really even mainstream until like the early 2000s. And so this idea that at some point Rex Huriman, or whoever killed her, if it was him, could have been finding his
Starting point is 00:59:25 victims in a different way back then, does open doors to links between Huriman and other cold cases like the Eastbound Strangler or Atlantic City murder case. Though at the time of recording it does seem that the police have ruled out that possibility. So now we wait. And the wait will be long. Rex Huriman is almost certainly going to go to trial. New York doesn't have the death penalty, so there's nothing prosecutors can take off the table in exchange for a guilty plea. So if your choices are plead guilty and go to prison for life,
Starting point is 00:59:59 or plead not guilty, go to trial, and be found guilty, and go to prison for life, you can bet your ass Huriman will go to trial because there will be a chance. But that trial will not be happening for a very long time. But now you know all there currently is to know, and if there is more to know, we will tell you. We will indeed. We will keep you guys updated on what happens, but I think much like the Delphi case, much like the Brian Koburger case, but even more so because of the number of victims that are here this is going to be a case that very very very slowly moves
Starting point is 01:00:30 forward so yeah we're just going to have to keep an eye on it and come back to it later but that is for now everything you need to know about the Long Island serial killer case yeah let us know what you think if you've got theories of your own and we will ever your obedient servants decide for ourselves exactly so we'll see you guys next time for something else and um yeah stay safe be good be good bye Hi, I'm Lindsey Graham, the host of Wondery Show American Scandal. We bring to light some of the biggest controversies in U.S. history. Presidential lies, environmental disasters, corporate fraud. In our latest series, NASA embarks on an ambitious program to reinvent space exploration
Starting point is 01:01:23 with the launch of its first reusable vehicle, the Space Shuttle. And in 1985, they announced they're sending teacher Krista McAuliffe into space aboard the Space Shuttle Challenger, along with six other astronauts. But less than two minutes after liftoff, the Challenger explodes. And in the tragedy's aftermath, investigators uncover a series of preventable failures by NASA and its contractors that led to the disaster. Follow American Scandal on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. Experience all episodes ad-free and be the first to binge the newest season only on Wondery+. You can join Wondery in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify.
Starting point is 01:01:59 Start your free trial today. I'm Jake Warren, and in our first season of Finding, I set out on a very personal quest to find the woman who saved my mum's life. You can listen to Finding Natasha right now exclusively on Wondery Plus. In season two, I found myself caught up in a new journey to help someone I've never even met. But a couple of years ago, I came across a social media post by a person named Loti. It read in part, Three years ago today that I attempted a social media post by a person named Loti. It read in part, Three years ago today that I attempted to jump off this bridge, but this wasn't my time to go.
Starting point is 01:02:31 A gentleman named Andy saved my life. I still haven't found him. This is a story that I came across purely by chance, but it instantly moved me and it's taken me to a place where I've had to consider some deeper issues around mental health. This is season two of Finding and this time, if all goes to plan, we'll be finding Andy. You can listen to Finding Andy and Finding Natasha exclusively and ad-free on Wondery Plus. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts or Spotify.

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