RedHanded - Episode 319 - Lam Kor-wan: The Rainy Night Butcher

Episode Date: October 12, 2023

In August 1982, a Kodak technician was processing some photos when he saw the image of a naked young woman appear. He took a closer look, and any excitement he may have felt quickly disappeared when he realised she had been severely mutilated…The ensuing investigation led to the conviction of Hong Kong’s first ever serial killer: Lam Kor-wan, known as the ‘Rainy Night Butcher’, or ‘Jars Killer’. Lam had been conducting sick dissections in a tiny bedroom he shared with his unwitting brother – and keeping specimens, suspended in rice wine, in a grim collection of Tupperware containers under his bed.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to Red Handed early and ad-free. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. They say Hollywood is where dreams are made. A seductive city where many flock to get rich, be adored, and capture America's heart. But when the spotlight turns off, fame, fortune, and lives can disappear in an instant. Follow Hollywood and Crime, The Cotton Club Murder on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello.

Hello. Look who's talking. It's two smug bitches is what it is. Guys, you did it. You did it. You did it. You did it. I honestly, I cannot believe it.

We won the Listener's Choice at the British Podcast Awards last week here in London. And we, I'm blown away. Yeah. Blown away. The competition was the stiffest it has ever been. Honestly, they've got a lot of fucking followers on Instagram. Like I would say if you look at their individual followings, it's in the fucking millions.

I think one of them, they said at the award show, because they won something else, that they have 30 million followers on social media. And so Hannah and I didn't even really want to enter when we saw who else was entering. I'll be honest, Wondery plus our agents plus you guys persuaded us to. I felt like we were going to lose. We weren't even planning to go to the awards. And then we fucking won. We won. How? How is it possible? Which is all everybody kept asking me at the awards. How did you win? Well, I think what we've learned is that you can have millions of followers on social media, but when it comes to podcasting, you can't fuck with us.

That's what makes me so happy is that it's about not how many followers you have, but about how engaged your audience is. And this is the first time that people have been like shocked in the past it was kind of like yeah okay red-handed one like whatever and this year people were like how yeah because huge names were gunning for it oh and publicly gunning for it so therefore everybody knew what a huge huge huge huge deal it was and we were at the awards we kind of knew because they did call us a few days before and say are you guys definitely coming you should be coming and we were like no fucking way and then that's when i was like okay i actually need a dress to wear to this and then we got there and we hadn't told the team and the man who um was announcing the award opened the envelope and he's like and the winner is for the third year

and then i didn't hear anything else because i just started screaming and um there was a palpable sense of shock in the room i think yes i think so you could have like picked some drawers up off the floor so thank you guys so much you don't understand it's not just about the fact that we want what it will do is it made everybody in that room the great and the good and the bad and the ugly of podcasting here in britain be like oh shit what's red-handed and they're gonna pay attention to us and that just means that we're gonna be able to make so much more exciting content for you guys we're gonna get so much more opportunities the spooky bitch community is gonna continue to grow it's just also validation more so not for us but for the team you guys might not know but thanks to you guys listening thanks to our patrons thanks

to everybody we now have a team of four other people who work for us, who all work incredibly hard. And I think for them to get that recognition as well, it just means the world. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. You'll never know how much it means to us. And now you can listen to this episode. I'm Suruti. I'm Hannah. And welcome to week two. Week two.

Of October. Of October. I can't believe we're actually in October. It's my fucking birthday on Friday and I completely forgot. Oh yeah. I haven't. But it is. Everything is running. Everything in my life currently is

scheduled down to half an hour chunks so everything and i mean everything is in the diary and i'm just like oh my god there is so much admin i mean what we're about to tell you this this story is pretty scary yeah but do you want to try moving house it's fucking horrible i read that the most stressful things you can ever do in your life are get divorced and move house. And some people have to do both at the same time. I mean, that is the worst. That is the worst. So yes, I don't envy those people. And I don't envy myself right now because it's a fucking nightmare. I had to call like the energy people and the water people and whatever. And I was just like, oh my God, this is so much fucking work.

But it's done. And I'm just grumbly because I feel ill yeah and we're getting through it yeah moving on Friday your birthday moving into the house the day of joy absolutely I can't wait no it will be great but it's just the realization of things like we don't have a bed so yeah we'll be sleeping on a mattress for a while and I thought this weekend why don't we just order a bed yeah and then we sat down to look at beds and i was like i don't know which one i want i cannot physically make a decision i cannot make a decision and i was just like how am i expected to make a decision about which bed i want oh see i don't know what i can't remember what the room looks like because in london you buy a house after being in that house for literally 10 minutes i was stood in that house for 10 minutes.

I saw it once. I saw each room once. So let's say the house has, you know, including hallways, 10 different areas of the house. I spent one minute at most in every single room before I bought that house. So I haven't got a fucking clue. How can I possibly be expected to choose what bed I want? I'm more of a smash and grabber. I see. When I was buying furniture for my house, my mum found it unbearable because I

would just be like, okay, I'll take that one. And she was like, but you haven't seen all of them. Yeah, but I like that one. You can't ask me to go and buy a sofa and then when I choose one, tell me how I've done it wrong. I mean, I admire that. I do. And I'm sure the people don't want to listen to any more of us talking about beds and sofas and whatnot but it is happening it's it's coming my way quickly and I'm going to deal with it in a calm manner but I am feeling quite hot and sweaty right now so let's get on with today's episode because what you guys are here for is for some scares and I don't mean of the administrative nature so what comes to mind when I mention Hong Kong? Street food?

Skyscrapers? The CCP takeover? Any of those things, probably all of those things. But for the most part, the thing about Hong Kong is, despite it being a major city, it is a safe place to live and visit. The murder rate on the island is just 2.4 per million people, compared with 12.7 per million in a city like London. Wow. So that's quite a remarkable difference. Yes, absolutely. My dad is currently in Hong Kong. Yeah, I was just going to say.

Loving life, having a great fucking time. Going to go visit him. Can't because admin horror house so as far as serial killings go in hong kong's history it has only ever had two official serial killers that we know about lam kore one and lam cock way apparently making the surname lam the u.s equivalent of peterson in the murdery namestakes nice well done thank you i had to look up a lot about how Chinese names are structured before I wrote that sentence. Now both of these guys, both of these Lambs,

are interesting characters. But Lam Kor Wan is our focus today. Not just because he was the first official serial killer on record in Hong Kong, but also because what Lam Kor Wan, a.k.a. the jazz killer, aka the jazz killer, aka the rainy night butcher, did to his victims makes him a grim but very appropriate fit for a Red Handed October episode. So sit back, make sure your headphones are definitely not accidentally going to disconnect

from the Bluetooth and blare this across the room, bus, train or plane that you're currently in, and please, absolutely no eating. On the 10th of August 1982, a technician working at the Kodak Express in Tim Sai Tzu was busy processing the negatives of Hong Kong's happy snappers. There were holiday shots, wedding pictures, baby's first photo shoot, etc., the usual, but then something caught this poor Kodak man off guard. He was staring at photographs of a naked young woman. Some of the images captured her entire body, but some were weird close-ups of various body parts. At first, the technician thought that these were just racy pictures taken by some couple, something I imagine he had seen quite a few times working at Kodak. And maybe they hadn't realised that in the black and white times where we are,

people do have to see them to develop them. But then this worker noticed what looked like a fresh burn on the woman's thigh. And then a severed breast. Oh, that's going to kill that boner pretty quick. I mean, for hopefully, hopefully. So, the astonished young man yelled for his boss, who immediately phoned the Kodak shop across town. Because the man who had come in to get these particular pictures developed

had been sent their way to this Kodak shop number two by the manager of the other stool. This man had been using the services of Kodak shop number one to get photographs developed for a few weeks. He claimed that he was a photographer who was working with the mortuary at the Queen Elizabeth Hospital and taking colour autopsy photos, you know, to help him out. Then, on his fourth visit, the man had asked for one of these pictures to be enlarged, which is when he was sent to Kodak shop number two to scare the living hell out of this poor unsuspecting technician.

Now, not knowing what else to do, the manager of Kodak shop number one quickly called the police. Royal Hong Kong police detective and head of the homicide squad in Kuala Lune, Sergeant Lo Da Jun, didn't understand what was going on at first when he received this call. But when he looked at the pictures, and had them all blown up so he could take an even closer look, he couldn't believe his eyes. The photos were all of one young woman,

and the macabre series of images went from pictures of her body being in one piece, though she is clearly already dead, to her body having been dissected and dismembered. And these weren't morgue photographs. The cuts on her body were not surgical in nature, and there were no lights like you would expect in a morgue. There were no surgical tools in any shot, and the woman wasn't laid out on a metal table in clinical surroundings.

She was on what looked like a carpeted floor. It's a really good thing. What's your favourite thing? Red flag. Red flag. Honestly, it is the biggest issue for me. Coming back to the house. So we have a rug at the moment in the flat.

And let's just say that Baby Blue has not been feeling very well for the past week. A lot of vomiting has been going on. And I don't know why, but he refuses to vomit on the hardwood that we could just wipe up. Instead, he secretly goes and throws up on the rug. And it is my worst nightmare. Like, that is Halloween for me. Is me having to sit there and talk to EDF while I'm on hold for fucking 50 minutes with them while the dog throws up on the rug in front of me.

And I'm like, see, this is why no carpets, no carpets ever. And I have now won that argument. And we shall have no carpets in front of me. And I'm like, see, this is why no carpets. No carpets ever. And I have now won that argument and we shall have no carpets in the new house. But yes, there is a dead woman just on the floor and he's like, they're morgue photos. She's on a carpeted floor. And I haven't seen these pictures. I believe you can see them if you so choose to.

I wouldn't. I wouldn't recommend it. I really wouldn't. All the things we're about to tell you in this episode are horrible wouldn't. I wouldn't recommend it. I really wouldn't. All the things we're about to tell you in this episode are horrible enough. Your mind can do the work. Don't go look for the actual pictures. And we also have to tell you that in a couple of the photos, a chainsaw could be seen lying on the carpeted floor by the woman's remains, very much not what you would see in a mortuary. Can you imagine? Just silent witness. It's just on the carpet of somebody's fucking bedroom with a chainsaw.

But yeah, this is not the peak of stupidity, even close to the peak of stupidity in this episode. So Detective Lo Da-jun knew this was no set-up. He knew he had a killer on his hands. He and his team had found a woman's body in a river a few weeks back in Hong Kong. Was this their killer? As it would turn out, the man who had taken these pictures was indeed that woman's killer, but these pictures were not of her. The woman in the river had been the man's first victim. The woman in the pictures was his fourth.

And Hong Kong, unknown to Kowloon's lead homicide detective, had its first serial killer on the loose. You don't believe in ghosts? I get it. Lots of people don't. I didn't either, until I came face to face with them. Ever since that moment, hauntings, spirits, and the unexplained have consumed my entire life. I'm Nadine Bailey. I've been a ghost tour guide for the past 20 years. I've taken people along with me into the shadows,

uncovering the macabre tales that linger in the darkness. And inside some of the most haunted houses, hospitals, prisons, and more. Join me every week on my podcast, Haunted Canada, as we journey through terrifying and bone-chilling stories of the unexplained. Search for Haunted Canada on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you find your favorite podcasts. He was hip-hop's biggest mogul, the man who redefined fame, fortune, and the music industry. The first male rapper to be honored on the Hollywood Walk of Fame, Sean Diddy Cone.

Diddy built an empire and lived a life most people only dream about. Everybody know ain't no party like a Diddy party, so. Yeah, that's what's up. But just as quickly as his empire rose, it came crashing down. Today I'm announcing the unsealing of a three-count indictment, charging Sean Combs with racketeering conspiracy, sex trafficking, interstate transportation for prostitution. I was f***ed up. I hit rock bottom.

But I made no excuses. I'm disgusted. I'm so sorry. Until you're wearing an orange jumpsuit, it's not real. Now it's real. From his meteoric rise to his shocking fall from grace, from law and crime, this is The Rise and Fall of Diddy. Listen to The Rise and Fall of Diddy exclusively with Wondery Plus. The problem was that no one knew who the murdering photographer was. This was the 80s. Pay in cash, give a fake name. Who's going to find you?

The only possibility that they had to catch up with this killer was that the Kodak shop had the man's photos. And as long as everyone kept the discovery a secret, there was no reason to think that the man wouldn't come back to get his gruesome shots. So they laid low, and some plain-clothed officers kept watch over the store for the next few days. And eventually, on the 17th of August, a man walked in to collect his photos. The manager alerted the police, and the shocked man was swiftly arrested. Once he was at the police station the shocked man was swiftly arrested.

Once he was at the police station, the man, who turned out to be 27-year-old Lam Kuo Wan, flatly denied having killed anyone. He claimed that the pictures weren't even his. They'd been taken by a friend of his, who was away on a boat trip conveniently, but was due to return to Hong Kong that very day. And that's why he had remembered to pick the pictures up for his friend who was meant to drop them off to him today. So the police gave Lam Kor Wan the huge benefit of the doubt and actually allowed him to go and meet up with this so-called friend to drop off these images. Obviously the police went with him and obviously no mystery murderer friend turned up. So Lam Kor Wan was taken back to his holding cell,

all the while screaming his innocence. And so the police set about trying to understand who this man really was. Now Lam Kor Wan had arrived at the Kodak shop to pick up these murder photos in a taxi. That was registered to him. So investigators took it apart for evidence, finding a knife and a pair of handcuffs in the boot.

Immediately, suspect. Next up, though, was Lam Kuo Wan's home. So the police headed to To Kwa Wan in the Kowloon City District, to the On Hing Building, and up to Flat B on the first floor. The flat was a small one, about 500 square foot, which city dwellers from London to New York are probably screaming, that's pretty standard, and you're right, it is. But Lam Kwa Wan lived in this

500 square foot apartment with all of the male members of his family, his dad and a couple of his brothers. He even shared a five foot by six foot bedroom with one of his brothers. Now if you go and look up this story, in a few places you'll hear that Lam Kor Wan lived in this flat with his entire family. But from my research that wasn't the the case. Like I said, it's just the men living in there. And let me explain, because it is important. And then after I've done that, we'll get into what horrors the police discovered in that tiny little six foot by five foot bedroom. Lam Kuo-wan's father, Lam Wee-li, had two wives. Zhang Jian-ping, who was Lam Kuo-wan's mum, and his primary or main wife, and then wife number two, whose name doesn't seem to be anywhere. Between the two wives, they had

ten children, of which Lam Kuo-wan was the eldest. And for a while, the entire family had lived together. Between 1957 and 1962, they had lived in Brunei, where Lam Ween Lee worked for an oil company. Eventually, the whole family moved back to Hong Kong, when dad got a new job with CLP Hong Kong. They had a comfortable life. Lam Kuo Wan's father earned a decent salary. And since moving back to Hong Kong, he'd also opened a motorcycle shop. But 10 kids is still a lot of kids, so the family prioritised Lam Kuo Wan's education above the others. He was, after all, the eldest, a boy, and the main wife's son.

But that is quite a lot of pressure to put on a teenager. Not that he wasn't a bad shout to pin your hopes on, for a long time Lam Khor Wan had excelled at school, always sitting within the top 10% of his class. But he had an incredibly strict home life, where physical punishment from his father for the mildest mistakes was a common occurrence. And in classic tiger parenting style, Lam Kuan was expected to absolutely ace school,

while still helping out every single day at the family's motorcycle shop. And the once straight-A student couldn't quite manage this balancing act, and so his grades began to fall off a cliff. It also didn't help that his dad had pretty generally been quite unhappy since the family had returned to Hong Kong from Brunei, making him a volatile and angry man to be around. Never a recipe, I would say, for child-rearing success.

So Lam Kuan somehow managed to finish high school and started working full-time at the shop, whilst also doing an apprenticeship at a family member's air-conditioning company. So it's safe to say, by this point, things haven't panned out quite as anybody had hoped for Lam Kuan. And his dad made sure to remind his son of that on the regular. Again never a recipe for success in not raising a

massively maladjusted child. And maladjusted he was to put it mildly. In his late teens Lam Corwan had developed a fascination with pornography. No huge shock there. He's a teenage boy after all. But the thing is, it wasn't just a hobby like it is for most teenage boys entering into adulthood. No, no, no. Lam Kaurwan was obsessed. And he would order his porn all the way from jolly old England because he claims that he was just too embarrassed to go and buy it from the local shop. But that's quite hard to believe, or at least understand, because at home, Lam Corwan would openly talk about his fascination with porn and his sexual interests at the dinner table. That, okay, like the tiger parenting aside,

shut up. Yeah. Oh my God. When I read about this, it was shocking. Because yeah, basically from his sort of like late teens, when he has left high school and he starts to kind of, I don't know, his weird behavior starts to escalate. And as we'll see, it gets much, much worse. But yeah, he just sits around the dinner table with his mum, his fucking bonus mum, and all of his brothers and sisters and his dad and just talks very, very openly about his sexual interests. I mean, that is bonkers. Yeah, and his family weren't particularly happy about it, but they did put up with it.

However, his talk about women and sex became more and more violent in nature and by 19, Lam Corwan was a regular at the city's brothels. Then, and this is when we hit just a real crisis point in the household, I would say. Because one day, Lam Kor Wan was caught spying on one of his sisters in the shower and masturbating. No, not a recipe for a happy home. Number three. Now, obviously, this was the final straw for his mum and she kicked lam koh wan her husband and his brothers out of the house she was absolutely furious with her husband for not doing more to control their sex crazed son i think the whole

thing for the mum is like you have let this go on for too long he's been acting fucking mental for years and you've allowed this and now look what's happened i can't trust him to be anywhere near our daughters you're all gone get out and this was basically the beginning of the end for the family and this situation is also how the male members of the family ended up living in that tiny flat in the on hing building where the police turned up in august 1982 so basically the mom is like take your depraved son and all of your other ones and get out of my sight i think she's just like he's the problem but i don't know who else is going to become the problem so you're all

get out get out so yeah the police have turned up at this flat and uh let's now get back to the satch itself. Because it's a lot, guys. This is a Halloween October episode, so prepare yourself, because no one on that police force was at all prepared for what they would find that day. And as we said at the top of the episode, please, absolutely no eating. Once at the flat, investigators made a beeline for Lam Kor Wan's bedroom. And there, they discovered a tiny room packed with suitcases, boxes and an unbelievable amount of professional photography equipment. And this was interesting because in 1982 in Hong Kong, basically no one had a video camera.

When did your family get a video camera? Not till the mid-90s. Absolutely. I mean, my God, there's like video footage of us when I think I'm probably like seven. And it was my dad's friend who was filming us because he had a video camera because he was into that kind of thing. And it was just like, oh God, I don't know when we got one. But yeah, he's got these in 1982. And there were also piles and piles of books all over the place. Anything from

anatomical texts to straight up porn. So they decided to have a look in the boxes and in the boxes the police discovered surgical equipment, videotapes, women's clothing, handbags and heels. Inside a military ammunition box sat in the corner of the room, investigators found reams and reams of negatives and countless photos of women. In the pictures, these women were clearly dead. And many of the images showed them being taken apart piece by piece. Then the police ventured under Lam Khor Wan's bed, which I think is always a scary place to look. Under anybody's bed, but particularly this man's, because this space was crammed with plastic food containers all taped up. And it would be horrible enough to think that they are just unwashed food containers squished under there but it gets so much worse because these food containers were

full of liquid and had strange things sealed inside them. It turned out that this liquid was rice wine and the things were body parts. A forensic tech who just so happened to be a woman discovered a severed breast and multiple female pubic parts and sexual organs squashed into these containers. The forensic tech was then swiftly taken off the case, because her bosses didn't think she could face the horrors of what else they'd find. It took four days for the team to complete the search and gather up all of the weird and morbid evidence that they'd discovered in Lam Kuo Wan's bedroom. No-one on the police force had ever seen anything like it.

All they knew was that after everything they had heard coming from the US about these so-called serial killers, Hong Kong now had its own. But they had no idea who these victims were and why this had all happened. At first, the police couldn't even believe that this was the work of just one man. After all, Lam Khor Wan's brother had shared the very tiny bedroom with him, and given that forensics had found pubic hair, blood spray and globs of flesh on the walls of that tiny bedroom,

how could his brother not have known? I'm going to be sick. How could he not have been in on the whole thing? A fair question. So the police arrested all of the men who lived in that flat, including Lam Khor Wan's dad. But it soon became clear that no-one in the family knew what the hell Lam Khor Wan had been up to. They were all absolutely disgusted when

the police showed them some of his pictures. Quickly the police learned that Lam Kor Wan had ruled the roost at home, threatening to kill his little brother if he ever touched his things. And his brother, the one who shared the room with him, was so terrified of Lam Kor Wan that he did as he was told and just generally tried to stay away from him. Also, despite the fact that the two brothers shared that room, they didn't share much else. Lam Kor Wan's brother, Lam Kor Kun,

worked in the day and basically only came back to that room to go to sleep. And Lam Kor Wan, remember, he works as a taxi driver doing night shifts. So they barely crossed paths. And Lam Kor Kun, and the dad, would also later be able to show, when the women were eventually identified, that they had solid alibis for when all of the women had gone missing.

But we're jumping ahead. For now, let's look at Lam Corwan's behaviour after his arrest. jars. But still, he refused to talk. So with no confession, investigators carried on digging through all of the evidence, watching every tape and examining every photo from that squalid little room. And finally, after a few days, they got something that they thought might just get Lam Khor Wan to open his mouth. It was a video in which you could see Lam Kor Wan himself in the shot. Come on. I mean, he's a fucking idiot. Honestly, like, this is what I mean. It's like, he's just constantly like, it's not me. It's not me. It's my friend. Oh, it's all the stuff in my room. I'm just going to stop talking. And they're like, it's you. You're in the fucking

video. And in this video, you can see him basically walking around the body of a woman, a dead woman, who's lying on his carpeted bedroom floor, taking pictures of her. I mean, why he doesn't realize that he can just get the stills off the video, but he also needs to take pictures to take to the fucking local Kodak shop to get caught is beyond me. But there you go. And then after he's done this, the video goes on to horrifically show in graphic detail, Lam Corwan dissecting this woman's body. And the video was labelled Serious Secrets. I mean, you just couldn't make it up. The police then found more videos. One was labelled A Serious Secret, singular for some reason, and another was labelled Operation Rainy Night. Maybe it's more poetic in Cantonese. Maybe, maybe. But in each video, what is not poetic is that Lam Kauan can be seen cutting up different women.

He removes organs, places them in those jars. He then dismembers the body and places the parts on plastic sheeting on his floor. With each video, Lam Kor Wan gets better at his macabre activity. And in one video, he turns to the camera, looks directly down the lens, and smiles. Hate it. Yep. During previous interrogations, as we said,

Lam Kuan had given the police absolutely nothing. So now, they tried a different tactic. The police showed him the videos and photos they had found of him dissecting women's bodies, taking photos and smiling. And they asked him if he would like all of these things to be released to the public so that the world could see what he had done. And it worked because almost immediately Lam Kuan confessed to everything, pleading that they not show anyone else anything from his room. It's interesting that Lam Kuo Wan feels such shame or such privacy over what he had done.

But for once, he was talking and he was confessing. And once he started, he could not stop. He told detectives everything, every single last bit of what he'd done. And he even gave a weird explanation for why he had done what he had done. And he blamed his father in true tiger cub fashion. It's the parents' fault. Yeah. So let's start with what Lam Kor Wan said triggered his killing spree. According to him, in 1973, when he would have been about 18 years old, and this would have been a year before he was caught wanking off

to his sister, he had a massive argument with his dad, who kicked him out of the family home. Lam Kuo Wan said that this experience destroyed him. It made him feel emasculated, and it pushed him to have a breakdown. Oh, here we fucking go. Like, why is it always the emasculation, like why does no one ever be like i just you just defeminized me and

it upset me and then i had a breakdown and then i murdered a bunch of people grow up so he claims that one day soon after this incident he found himself standing outside of a public toilet somewhere in the city holding a knife and he said that he was overcome with this unstoppable urge to attack. So he grabbed a passing woman forced her into the toilet sexually assaulted her

and said that he wanted to kill her but someone intervened before he could and the woman escaped. And we know that this happened because Lam Kor Wan was actually arrested, but he was found mentally unfit to stand trial, and so instead of going to prison, he was sent to a psychiatric hospital for three months. However, it doesn't seem to have done him much good, because once he got out, he found that the urges hadn't gone away.

And so, when he returned home, of course, his family were alarmed by his increasingly odd behaviour. Behaviour that eventually culminated in him peeping in on his sister in 1974, the incident that got him, his brothers and his dad kicked out of the family home by wife one. And for a while, Lam Kho Wan seems to have been able to suppress his urges. So fast forward to 1978, where he gets his taxi license and became a late night taxi driver. And then in 1981, he realized that he had a passion for photography. He even ended up joining a local photography club and spending all of his money on incredibly expensive camera equipment. And maybe to pay for all of this camera equipment and simultaneously all of his money on incredibly expensive camera equipment.

And maybe to pay for all of this camera equipment and simultaneously indulge his sexual desires, it was now that Lam Kuan started a little side hustle, taking photos and videos for the porn industry in Hong Kong. All the while, he may still not have acted on his urges again, but his violent fantasies were most definitely still growing. And his rage against women was also bubbling away. His own mum flat out refused to speak to him, not that I can blame her. So with his dark impulses going unchecked by his father, who seems to have been in a state of denial about the whole thing, it was only a matter

of time before Lam Kuan took the next step. And that came six months before he was eventually arrested in that Kodak shop. Lam Kuan told officers in his confession that on the 3rd of February 1982, he had been driving around Knutsford Terrace, which I don't know Hong Kong, I've never actually been, but apparently Knutsford Terrace is like a party strip in Hong Kong that's full of bars and clubs open till the early hours. It's like where you go to kind of have a bit of a sleazy night out. And it was there that Lam Kuan spotted 22-year-old Chan Fung Lan. Chan Fung Lan was a dancer and she'd been working at one of those clubs that night. Afterwards, she'd gone for drinks with her sister

and ended up getting pretty drunk. Her sister begged her to just come back to hers. But Chan Fung Lan wanted to go home and thinking that she'd be safe, as we all do, hailed down a taxi. Lam Kor Wan stopped to pick her up. We don't know if he knew that he was going to kill Chan Fun Lan that night, or whether he didn't know.

In his confession, he said that he had killed her because she'd been annoying. He said that she was smashed and kept telling him the wrong way to her house, wasting his time. And then she threw up in the back of his car and that's when he said he'd had enough. So he got out of the taxi, went into the boot, got a length of wire that he had in the back and he used it to attack Chan Fung Lan. According to his confession, he strangled her to death, put her body in the boot and then drove back to his apartment,

hardly daring to believe what he had just done. When he got home, it was 5am and his dad and brother were both in the flat, asleep. Lam Kuo Wan wanted to be alone with the body. He needed his brother to go out so he could use the bedroom. So he dragged Chan Phun Lan's body into the flat and hid it under the sofa in the living room. And then he waited.

In the morning when his dad and brother both left for work, according to Lam Kuo Wan, he dragged the body into his bedroom and got to work. It's the body under the sofa. I hate it. So when we say he got to work, he didn't really have the tools at this point to actually do what he wanted to do or what he thought he wanted to do. So Lam Kuo Wan went out and bought a chainsaw

and then set about dismembering Chan Fung Lan's body whilst filming and photographing the entire grisly process. That's not the work of someone who hasn't thought about it, you know? No, I think with Lam Kuan, it's kind of similar to what we see with other serial killers. Like take a John Wayne Gacy, for example. It's like they don't necessarily know exactly what's going to do it for them and we go on to discuss this later but it's like even the first time he kills Chan Fong Lan like I don't know that he definitely knew when he picked her up that's what I'm gonna do I think it was like he builds up to the point

he goes into boiling point he grabs the wire he does it I think it was quite impulsive but then i think he's like oh yeah that was good you're quiet now and now i can do what i want with your body yeah he doesn't seem to relish the kill he does it very quickly he does it the same way he never really changes the way he kills but where we see the escalation where we see the experimentation is what he does with the body after. And I think here is a man who is discovering what is sexually turning him on. Disgusting. I need to have a shower. But we can't, we have to continue. There is so much more to tell you.

So after he had dismembered Chan Fung Lan's body, he placed the various body parts in rice sacks and dumped them in a nearby river. But he hadn't dumped all of Chan Fung Lan. He cut out and kept her genitals, preserving them in jars filled with the rice wine and hiding them under his bed. He also told the police during the confession that he had taped

the body's eyes down during the dissection because, quote, I didn't want her looking at me. Now I think it's a good point to pause there and discuss something we haven't talked about before on this show, which is the psychology of a dismemberer. And like I said, we haven't talked about this in explicit detail before, but after the the list case um episode one in particular where we were getting ourselves in like circles talking in circles about why somebody would do a dismemberment and i just remember every profiler that i listened to talk about the list case in the preparation for that episode said the same thing the psychology of a dismemberer is very specific and you don't just like sometimes do it and not do it and kind of do it a bit here and like not

later and blah blah blah it's a very specific psychology right and i thought that that was really interesting and uh yes in amongst all of the house horror nightmares this is the kind of thing i think about so i've been thinking about it quite a lot and I wanted to, I don't know, use this opportunity, I guess, as grim as it sounds, to dig into it. And interestingly, I did not realize this. Dismembering is actually an incredibly rare crime. I found a study by a Finnish forensic psychologist whose name I'm going to butcher, I'm going to try very hard. Helena Haken and nile home let's go with that sorry professor helena she's a former criminal profiler and also professor at the university of helsinki and she basically says in that particular part of europe dismemberments only account for two percent

of homicides which i thought was interesting and it can actually go down to about one in 500 in other parts of the world though interestingly if you flip reverse it in other parts of the world particularly she names Germany and Japan dismemberment are way up so there seems to be something culturally linked to dismemberment being utilized as part of a homicide. She also talks about how she was once involved in an interview with an offender who had eaten some of his victim's body parts. He told his interrogators that he ate them because he wanted to feel something.

And when he was asked, so how did it feel? He said that he didn't know because it felt no different to anything else in his life. Again, that's pretty classic like this idea of like pushing that taboo further and further and further looking for that extreme thing that you can do that's finally gonna make you feel something and it still doesn't come. It's like the um the Iceman tapes. Yeah. Where he says the only thing that made him feel a bit funny was watching videos of rats eating the people he killed. Yeah. So Dr. Hakenen-Mniholm, who examines the likes of Luca Magnotta in her paper,

Don't Fuck With Cats, go and watch it, she theorises that the filming of dismemberment crimes could serve the same purpose as sending the body parts to someone else. That's what Luca Magnotta did. The filming or posting of body parts supports the grandiose thoughts the killer has of themselves. It's about shock. It's about horror. And of course, the power that the killer gets to have over those who see the videos or pictures or whatever he's doing. Yeah, because I think one of the biggest questions people might ask is like, yes, of course, we know that some killers document and like to document their crimes because it forms part of like the fantasy it also serves as a trophy for

afterwards a way for them to relive the crime etc etc but i thought it was really interesting here where she because i picked this bit out of her paper where she's talking about the likes of luca magnata who sends boxes of body parts to different people and then like absolutely is relishing in the shock and the horror that it causes and how she compares that to the likes she doesn't compare it directly to the likes of but to those who film it and when it is eventually discovered they know it's going to be their downfall but maybe the trade-off is the fact that they get a thrill out of seeing people being horrified by what they've done now researchers also suggest that there are a few different types of homicide or mutilation.

Firstly, you have psychotic murders, where the perpetrator has completely lost touch with reality, so they may be hearing voices or suffering from bizarre delusions, and they may feel like they have to dismember their victims. Then you have mafia murderers, where the mutilation or dismember their victims. Then you have mafia murderers where the mutilation or dismemberment is a way of sending a message to others. In this case the murder isn't just about getting rid of someone it's also a form of communication, a warning or a threat. Then you have which is probably the thing that I think most people think about when they think about dismemberment as part of a homicide which is defensive mutilation. So this is where the motive is to assist in hiding

or moving the body or simply to get rid of evidence or to make identification of the victim more difficult. But then finally we have offensive mutilation and I think this is the one that fits most closely with what Lam Kor Wan was up to because in offensive mutilation and i think this is the one that fits most closely with what lam corwan was up to because in offensive mutilation it's where the dismemberment is in fact the real purpose of the murder and this is done by killers who are driven by necrosadism which is just such a fucking yeah great necrosadism esoteric hitlerism i know something esoteric hitlerism and necrosadism. So what was it? Esoteric Hitlerism something? Esoteric Hitlerism and necrosadism. They're up there. They really are.

So these killers who participate in this kind of thing tend to mutilate the corpse in very, very specific and characteristic ways. For example, and you can get your horrible bingo cards out for this and Lam Corwan because they tend to sever genital organs or breasts and they tend to pull out sexual organs to preserve and keep hold of, which, yep, he's ticking all the boxes. And this was just fascinating to me because it's so fucking specific because they even say that in these cases, death by strangling is apparently very common. The entire profile just screams of Lam Kuan.

Also, interestingly, studies have shown that these types of killers who dismember were almost twice as likely to have had past contact with mental health services compared to other homicide offenders. Again, a pattern that fits with Lam Corwan, because remember, he spent three months in a psychiatric hospital. I'm Jake Warren, and in our first season of Finding, I set out on a very personal quest to find the woman who saved my mum's life. You can listen to Finding Natasha right now exclusively on Wondery+. In season two, I found myself caught up in a new journey to help someone I've never even met.

But a couple of years ago, I came across a social media post by a person named Loti. It read in part, Three years ago today that I attempted to jump off this bridge, but this wasn't my time to go. A gentleman named Andy saved my life. I still haven't found him. This is a story that I came across purely by chance but it instantly moved me and it's taken me to a place where I've had to consider some deeper issues around mental health. This is season two of Finding and this time if all goes to plan

we'll be finding Andy. You can listen to finding andy and finding natasha exclusively and ad free on wondery plus join wondery plus in the wondery app apple podcast or spotify they say hollywood is where dreams are made a seductive city where many flock to get rich be adored and capture america heart. But when the spotlight turns off, fame, fortune, and lives can disappear in an instant. When TV producer Roy Radin was found dead in a canyon near L.A. in 1983, there were many questions surrounding his death. The last person seen with him was Lainey Jacobs, a seductive cocaine dealer who desperately wanted to be part of the Hollywood elite.

Together, they were trying to break into the movie industry. But things took a dark turn when a million dollars worth of cocaine and cash went missing. From Wondery comes a new season of the hit show Hollywood and Crime, The Cotton Club Murder. Follow Hollywood and Crime, The Cotton Club Murder on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge all episodes of The Cotton Club Murder early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus. But now let's get back to Lam Kuo-wan's astonishing confession.

He told the police that soon after he had dumped Chan Fung Lan's remains, they had washed up and it had been all over the news. And this, of course, had scared him, so he knew that he needed to change his ideas. So he waited four months before killing his next victim. And this is classic serial killer behaviour. It is called the cooling-off period. Lam Kuo Wan wanted to wait and see what was going to happen next,

what the police did if they came knocking. And he also used this time to get, quote unquote, better. He began obsessively poring over anatomical books and even ditched the chainsaw in favour of some brand new surgical tools that he had purchased. How much do taxi drivers earn in Hong Kong? Honestly, this guy is just like money, money, money, money everywhere. I don't understand. I don't have a clear source of where this money is coming from for him.

Maybe it's his work with the porn industry. Yeah, that makes more sense. Like many early stage serial killers, Lam Kuo Wan didn't know yet what did it for him. He had just discovered that it was the aftermath of the kill, the body, and how he could dominate and desecrate it that really turned him on. So that makes him a product killer. And now he's going full pelt at honing his miserable craft. And so anybody who doesn't know what we're talking about when we talk about a product killer, we have talked about it before on the show and it is also in our book, which you should still go definitely buy. There's a difference between a process killer and a product killer.

A product killer, like Hannah correctly said, is someone like Lam Kwan who doesn't necessarily enjoy the process of killing, but enjoys the playing about with the body afterwards. Yeah, like Dennis Nelson. Yes. The murder is like a means to an end for them to get what they need, which is the body afterwards. Yeah, like Dennis Nilsen. Yes. The murder is like a means to an end for them to get what they need, which is the body. Whereas a process killer is somebody who enjoys

the act of the kill itself. They're not interested in the body afterwards. So like Hannah said, he is a product killer through and through. And he absolutely loved what he was doing.

And I think this is evidenced by the fact that he photographed all of his preparation. So during that four month calling off period and all of the like work he's doing to get himself ready for his next kill he recorded everything like he recorded himself reading these books wow and he kept all of the receipts of everything he bought like the surgical tools etc and he even took pictures of all of his new tools, his equipment, his books, his sacks, like everything he was going to use. And at last, he felt ready to kill again.

So on the 29th of May 1982, a raging storm hit Hong Kong. And Lam Kor Wan hit the streets in his taxi. That night, 31-year-old Chan Wan Kit, a 7-Eleven checkout worker, was leaving work. And Lam Kuo Wan was there to pick her up. But within minutes of the drive, Lam Kuo Wan had taken Chan Wan Kit in totally the wrong direction. And once he found a secluded spot, he got out and strangled her, just as he had done with his first victim. And again, he took Chan Wan Kit back to his flat, waited until morning, set up his cameras, and got to work dissecting her with his new surgical tools.

Then he threw Chan Wan Kit's remains into a rice sack and dumped the body parts in a wooded area that he'd scouted out after realising the river he'd used last time was not his friend because the first body had been found far too quickly. But Lan Kuan Wan, of course, saved this poor woman's sexual organs for his horrific underbed Tupperware nightmare. And I think it's important to remember

how much planning and preparation he's done and how careful he's been. He's like, OK, I've learned, not going to dump the body in the river again because look how quickly the first victim was found i'm going to change i'm going to change my mo this goes a long way to some of the claims that he later makes during his confession and at trial got it and he also like yes he is being very prepared but he gets so obsessed with particular things. Why don't you just learn how to develop your own photos? That seems like a very easy thing you could have done and could have avoided most of this problem. Absolutely. Anyway, after this kill, Lam Kuo Wan wouldn't

wait as long for the next time. He very quickly, as we so often see, started to escalate and devolve. At 4am on the 17th of July 1972, Leung Sao Wan, a 29-year-old cleaner, had just finished her shift at the Jung-U shopping centre. And yet again, it was absolutely pissing it down. So she hailed a cab. Once Lam Kuo Wan had Leung Sao Wan in his car, he almost immediately began to scare her. He asked her if she was interested in a quote-unquote special program,

to which she replied she wasn't interested in anything except going home. Lam Kuo-wan then drove her into a quiet spot and attacked her. This time, he escalated the attack, because he tried to rape Leung Sao-wan before he attacked her. This time, he escalated the attack because he tried to rape Leung Sa Wan before he killed her. He then followed his usual pattern, but with one more escalation. Cannibalism. Yes, because after he had dissected and dismembered Lang Sao Wan, he cut up a piece of the flesh and ate it. But Lam Kuo Wan told police that he thought it was disgusting and couldn't stomach it. But I think that this particular point really again shows the drive and fixation that Lam Kuo Wan has with escalating and wanting to go further and further, pushing the limits,

looking for that rush. Again, this is very classic when it comes to serial killers. The satisfaction they get from sort of kill after kill, or in this case, dissection after dissection and dismemberment after dismemberment, can deteriorate. So they need to keep going a little bit further each time to still try and get that thrill. And perhaps this was why Lam Khor Wan chose who he did for his fourth victim. Because Leung Wah Sum, a 17-year-old student,

was much younger than the other women he had killed. And she was certainly a much more high-risk victim to target. Leung Wah Sum was at a school function in the Sim Tsao Tsu region on the 2nd of July. She lived just over a mile from the venue, but her mum, wanting to make sure her daughter got home safely, had given her money for a taxi. Lam Kuo Wan picked Leung up and got her talking. They talked about school, her dreams for the future, and even religion. Leung Wah Sum was distracted and didn't notice that anything was wrong until she was already surrounded by woods.

She was definitely not at home. Leung Hwa-seum started crying, pleading with Lam Kuo-wan to let her go, but he handcuffed her to the back seat and continued to drive around. He told the police that he liked Leung and wanted to keep talking to her, and during this time, Leung Hwasom actually managed to keep calm, and she kept her abductor chatting away. Lam Kuo Wan told the police that he even considered letting her go. But he said that he couldn't risk it, because he didn't want to get caught. So he killed her, the same way he'd killed all the other women.

And in the confession, he gives it all this, like, I really liked her. I didn't even want to kill her. Like, we had this whole connection, blah, blah, blah. But, like, all that didn't stop him taking Leung Wei-Sum's body home. And it didn't stop him committing necrophilia, which is the next escalation that we see yes he's tried the cannibalism he's realized it's not for him so he's like what's next and this is the first time we see him actually desecrating the corpse in this particular sexual manner and then after he had done that he carries through with this same exact thing cutting out her sexual organs and then cutting up 17-year-old Lang Wei-Sum's body into pieces. And for all his chat of how much he liked her,

it still didn't stop him either from filming the entire thing. Now, the Hong Kong police were completely mystified by this enormous confession that they had just heard. It was like nothing they'd ever encountered, but they now knew that they had one woman's remains, that was the body that they had pulled out of the river weeks ago, but there were three more bodies yet to find. For days, Lam Kuan kept giving them confusing instructions about where to find the body parts, so in the end they dragged him out there to show them exactly where they needed to search. And soon the police had four sets of human remains in total, all in pieces and all tied up in rice sacks.

And so on the 3rd of March 1983, Lam Khor Wan's trial began. And as you can imagine, the courtroom was absolutely packed. The crowds gathered outside were raging. It was completely unprecedented for Hong Kong. People didn't know what to do with their emotions. They had no way to know how to digest what had happened, what this man had done. Inside the courtroom, there was an all-male jury. Much like the female forensic tech who'd been taken off the case, the court decided that the gruesome evidence of four dismembered women would be too much for other women to cope with seeing.

But regardless, I can't say that I envy the people on that jury at all. They had to look at thousands of negatives, photos and video clips showing three dissections and one chainsawing there is actually a movie out there based on this case i think it was in 1992 it was released and it's called dr lamb i don't know why it's called dr lamb i haven't watched it and i don't plan on um but if you want a halloween movie this october then i don't know, maybe go check it out. But I've seen the stills of that film and it turned my stomach. And I was like, I cannot even imagine

having to look at literally thousands of photos and video clips of this man doing what he did. I don't think I would be okay after that ever, ever again. But despite this unbelievable level of evidence against him, Lam Kho Wan said that he was at most guilty of manslaughter, not murder. He claimed that he was a prophet that had been sent by God. He also repeatedly referred to himself at trial as the rainy night killer, saying that the rain drove him to kill something that the media got fucking frothing at the mouth over and i do find it hilarious that the media like they've

never had a serial killer before but the minute they have one they are instinctively they're like rainy night butcher like every headline they're fucking going nuts for it and um yeah like his attorney also called Lam Kwan at trial delusional and they made it clear he was gonna go for the insanity defense so the trial at this point had to be halted because it needed to be decided whether or not Lam Kwan was actually insane and his defense lawyer actually says he cut up four women with a smile on his face. Of course he's insane. But as we all know here at Red Handed and Listening, just because you're crazy doesn't mean you're insane. But the case was passed on to a group of psychiatrists to assess Lam Kor Wan. And annoyingly, the report that they actually compiled after interviewing him has never come into the public eye,

so I haven't read it, there's no way to read it. But essentially, as all experts tend to do in these situations, what did they do? They disagreed. Some thought that Lam Corwin definitely had some sort of acute psychotic disorder. Some labelled him as having a schizoid personality disorder. Some said that he had an antisocial personality disorder. And others claimed he was just a sexual deviant.

And of course they looked at the various mitigating circumstances for his actions and included things like his negative family life, his social alienation, his abusive childhood and the possibility that he was suffering from some unknown brain issue or brain damage, even though all of his brain scans had come back absolutely fine. And finally, they had a look at the sexual oppression and repression that he had faced. Presumably, they got this from a story Lam Kuo-Wan told them about once being laughed at by a sex worker for being impotent and his family being like, can you not talk about porn at the dinner table, please?

I like, I have actually no idea what they're talking about when they mention the sexual oppression and sexual oppression. Like, I don't know. I try to look up if there is kind of a culture of that in Hong Kong and like maybe, but like that would mean that everybody there was a fucking murderer. Like, it's nonsense. I mean, yes. Did he have an abusive childhood? Yes. Was it in stark difference to probably every other other kid that was growing up in that area? Probably not that different. Again, we bang on about this time and time again, but I just want to correct it because so many people that have written about this case talk about these mitigating circumstances that were listed by the psychiatrist in this report. Because although we haven't seen the report, we've seen like praises of it out there.

And they kind of make out like these things that happened to him were somehow the things that created who he was. I'm not saying that they're insignificant, but they are by no means something that was an inevitability to create who he was. And as for those who didn't believe that Lam Kuan was insane, it all came down to the fact that he had planned his kills very well. And apart from learning to develop his own film, he had been very careful.

The level of sophistication he had showed in the planning, refining and the documentation of his crimes showed that he was of sound mind. And it also came to light that Lam Kuan was still being incredibly calculated. He was interviewed separately by each of the five mental health professionals who assessed him. And it turned out that he'd given them all different stories, different versions of what happened. He was profiling them, figuring out what they wanted to hear and what he needed to say to each of them to get what he wanted, like an Ed Kemper move. A hundred percent. And this is the thing about Lam Kuan.

He was incredibly intelligent. When they interview him, when the police are talking to him, he kind of acts like he's not very intelligent, but it is all a play. When they go through his room, they find, like, a chess computer. Where has he got this from? I don't know. It's, like, 1982. Where has he got the money? don't know it's like 1982 where has he got the money i haven't got a clue but they found that he had been playing it regularly and it was programmed

to the hardest setting so he was playing the chess computer set to the hardest setting he is an incredibly intelligent person and he's playing everybody or at least he tries so ultimately after this assessment by the psychiatrist it was ruled by the court that Lam Kor Wan, while having a personality disorder, was not insane and therefore was fit to stand trial. Now, we have discussed at length on this show before that a not guilty by reason of insanity plea is very, very hard to get. And one has to prove that they were acting under an irresistible urge, not an urge unresisted. And even if you are found not guilty by reason of insanity, it doesn't always result in the best outcome for the defendant.

You will most likely end up detained in a psychiatric hospital indefinitely. But anyway, it doesn't matter because he didn't get to use this plea anyway. So the trial got underway, and it ran for three weeks. The jury then just took a couple of hours to find Lam Kor Wan guilty of murder. And he was sentenced to death. An option that Hong Kong still had on the table back in 1983. The crowds outside the courthouse exploded in celebration when they heard the news. But Lam Kuo Wan is actually still alive to this day.

Because, like most things, it's our fault, the UK abolished the death penalty in 1965. And as Hong Kong was a British colony, it was decided that after 1965 it would be too politically stressful to execute anyone in Hong Kong even though people were still sentenced to death. And so Lam Kuo Wan survived and today, 40 years since his incarceration, he is still sat in Shek Pik prison

where he gets no visitors and he engages with none of the other inmates. His family were left to pick up the pieces on the outside, with his father even giving the victims' families as much as he could afford and paying for all of their memorials to be constructed. I mean, what else can you do, really? No, nothing.

So, yeah, that is the case of Lam Kuan, the jazz killer or the rainy night butcher. Yeah, there you go. Bad times. Happy Halloween. Happy Halloween. That's it, guys. We hope you enjoyed it.

I hope you didn't eat. It's something about the word dissected that makes me feel very uncomfortable. But we got through it and we will be back next week and the week after with halloween story swap time it's that time absolutely and if you are going to be at obsessed first you can come check us out recording a live version of our second halloween story swap which we will then be releasing here in the full audio format, but also on YouTube

with a full video accompaniment so you can watch the whole thing if you couldn't make it. So never fear. All right. And we'll see you then. Bye. Goodbye. Harvard is the oldest and richest university in America.

But when a social media-fueled fight over Harvard and its new president broke out last fall, that was no protection. Claudine Gay is now gone. We've exposed the DEI regime, and there's much more to come. This is The Harvard Plan, a special series from the Boston Globe and WNYC's On the Media. To listen, subscribe to On the Media wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Lindsey Graham, the host of Wondery Show American Scandal. We bring to light some of the biggest controversies in U.S. history. Presidential lies, environmental disasters, corporate fraud. In our latest series, NASA embarks on an ambitious program to reinvent space exploration

with the launch of its first reusable vehicle, the Space Shuttle. And in 1985, they announced they're sending teacher Krista McAuliffe into space aboard the Space Shuttle Challenger, along with six other astronauts. But less than two minutes after liftoff, the Challenger explodes. And in the tragedy's aftermath, investigators uncover a series of preventable failures by NASA and its contractors that led to the disaster. Follow American Scandal on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. Experience all episodes ad-free and be the first to binge the newest season only on Wondery Plus. You can join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify. Start your free trial today.