RedHanded - Episode 326 - Sarah Payne: Into Thin Air

Episode Date: November 30, 2023

Vanishing in seconds when her older brother turned away, 8-year-old Sarah Payne’s high-profile disappearance gripped the nation. But as mother and father begged for answers and hoped to see their little girl again, sadly it would leave a very different legacy.This truly heartbreaking case would change the British legal system forever – not before Rebekah Brooks and ‘News of The World’ brought the British media into absolute chaos.Follow us on social media:InstagramTwitterVisit our website:WebsiteSources available on redhandedpodcast.comSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to Red Handed early and ad-free. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. They say Hollywood is where dreams are made. A seductive city where many flock to get rich, be adored, and capture America's heart. But when the spotlight turns off, fame, fortune, and lives can disappear in an instant. Follow Hollywood and Crime, The Cotton Club Murder on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Hannah.

I'm Saruti. And welcome to Red Handed, where it's going so well, just thought I'd let you know. Yeah, we are months, no, weeks, we're weeks ahead. Yeah. Weeks ahead in the episode count, which is something we have never done before. No, no, we have not. For many a year, we have been doing, as we like to say, substance podcasting.

Hand to mouth. Hand to mouth podcasting, where we have lived podcast to podcast here in podcast land. But for once, we are ahead. And we're loving it because it allows us to do those kind of reactive episodes, et cetera, et cetera. And, yeah, we're feeling uncharacteristically calm this is not a calm case however i wonder whether so many of the like child snatching tropes

actually come from this one it is i've not been looking forward no to sitting down to record this particular episode if you are in the uk you will will know the name Sarah Payne all too well. And you're absolutely right, Hannah. I think it's every parent's worst nightmare. I know it sounds so cliche, but it's literally the thing you think is never actually going to happen. Absolutely. And out of it came Sarah's Law, which is a collection of amendments to acts of law that empower parents with the right to information on convicted sex offenders that may have access to their children in England and Wales.

And laws like that don't just happen by themselves. Laws never happen for no reason, especially when they have someone's name attributed to them. And on this week's Red Handed, we're going to tell you the tragic tale of how Sarah's Law came to be. And to do that, we need to take you to West Sussex in the year 2000, where a farm labourer was clearing ragwort from a field next to the A29 near Paulborough. Ragwort's that like fluffy, yellowy one. It's such a horrible name for a plant. Ragwort. Yeah, I think it poisons cows. I think that's why farmers don't like it.

They purposely gave it that name. Yes, yeah, yeah. The other one that's quite pretty to look at and does give you good oil, but just bad branding. Rapeseed? Yeah. That's the rapeseed plant. Yeah, we could have thought that one through.

Name it something else. Should we start a campaign? Yeah. Anyway, as this farm labourer, I haven't put his name in because I saw it reported differently in different places, so I thought it was better to just leave it alone. The weeds. And then he saw what he thought was a dead deer.

It wasn't. What he had really seen would only be revealed to him when he took a closer look. To his horror. This man was looking at the decomposing remains of a human child. Immediately he ran to call the police, but he was in too much shock to remember what position the body was lying in. But it didn't really matter. The local police were heavy-heartedly pretty sure who that little body belonged to. They

had been looking for her for 17 days. Sarah Evelyn Isabel Payne was just eight years old when she vanished on the 1st of July 2000. Sarah Payne's face is burned into my memory. Oh, yeah. That picture of her in her school uniform, like her school picture, I'll never forget it. So Sarah was born on the 13th of October 1991.

She was one of four little Paynes, Luke, Lee, Sarah and Charlotte. I'll never forget it. So Sarah was born on the 13th of October, 1991. She was one of four little Pains. Luke, Lee, Sarah and Charlotte. Their parents, Mike and Sarah, had got married young and had children pretty quickly. Things were hard at times, but they always pulled through together. And by the time Sarah was eight, they lived in Hersham in Surrey. Sarah's mum, Sarah, confusing, I know, but bear with us, was just 31 in 2000. I actually think that she had her first baby when she was

still in her teens. So she's got four kids at 31. And little Sarah had a bit of a rocky time at school. She had suffered from glue ear, which was corrected with surgery, but Sarah would always be partially deaf and sometimes shouted when she spoke. But she never let this hold her back. Sarah loved steps and S Club 7 like every child of the 90s. But due to her ear problems, little Sarah was tone deaf. Not that that stopped her belting out tragedy whenever she could. Sarah Payne was a sweet girl in her last year of primary school. She was given the role of befriender. If a younger child was feeling sad or scared,

they could go and sit on a special bench and Sarah would go and comfort them. Oh. I know. Sarah Payne took this job very seriously. She always knew what to say to make the younger children feel better. The 1st of July 2000 was a sunny Saturday, so Mike and Sarah decided to take the kids to their grandparents' house on the Sussex coast.

They did this quite a lot. The kids always looked forward to their visits to Terry and Les. Terry's their grandfather, Les is their grandma. Sarah worked at the local pub in Hersham and she took her girls with her. Charlotte was six and Sarah was eight. They liked helping their mum bottle up and they played with other children in the garden and she took her girls with her. Charlotte was six and Sarah was eight. They liked helping their mum bottle up and they played with other children in the garden. She worked. Mike wasn't ready to go when they got home

so they got to Terry and Les' house a little bit later than expected. And I know it's not the same part of the country but this story reminds me of like Broadchurch. Just this very like nice, at times obviously difficult like economic

circumstances why it's challenging but like a nice community they live in a nice area they're like uh close with their family they're a really tight-knit group and i it just this tragedy kind of happens out of nowhere but that day terry and les didn't mind that the family were late. They welcomed them all in and served a shepherd's pie. Now, little Sarah didn't like shepherd's pie, but not wanting to cause a fuss, she finished it all and then the kids went to play outside. The eldest was 13 and the youngest was 6. Now, whilst the kids were outside,

Sarah picked up a note that had been left on the desk in the kitchen. It read, To Mrs Payne, I love you so, so, so much. Love from Sarah. That is adorable. And to this day, no-one is sure when little Sarah had time to do it or how Sarah had managed to write the note without anyone seeing her. I think she must have written it at home and then brought it with her, and then left it in secret.

Now that day, Terry, so Grandpa Terry, wanted to show everyone a house that a friend of his was working on, and they decided to go to the beach on the way. Now Grandma Les decided to stay home to relax, but the other kids, and the rest of the grown-ups, went to the beach. The kids were not that arsed about some stupid fixer-upper house, so they wanted to stay on the beach when the grown-ups decided that it was time to move on. The boys, Lee and Luke, often played on the beach by themselves,

but the girls had never been left unattended before. So Mike told the boys that their sisters were too young to stay. But Lee and Luke begged. They promised they would look after their younger sisters. And Sarah and Charlotte chimed in as well as they pleaded, please let us stay, we'll be fine. So the boys were left in charge and the grown-ups, Terry, Sarah and Mike,

continued on their walk to go and look at this house. The children were told to stay together and get back to their nanny's house before dark. Sarah, Mike and Terry saw the house, stopped at the pub for a drink, stopped at the offy and they were back at Terry and Les's house by 7.45pm. And there they were met with the sight of Les standing outside the front door holding Charlotte's hand and the two boys looked very worried. And it was then that Les shouted the phrase that no parent wants to hear. Is Sarah with you? No, of course not, Sarah replied.

To which Les replied, well, she's gone. Sarah asked her, what do you mean, gone? And there was only one thing that Les could say. Gone, she's disappeared, We can't find her anywhere. Sarah and Mike looked around in a panic. The fields were tall. No one could see Sarah. The boys and their dad headed for the cornfields, searching for Sarah. Sarah was sure that Sarah wouldn't have gone far.

She would have been too nervous. So Sarah was convinced that her daughter would appear at any moment and just jump into her arms. But it wasn't to be. Here's what happened after the adults left the pained children to play by themselves, all four of them, for the very first time in their entire lives. After the beach, the children headed to a field behind their grandparents' house to play hide-and-seek.

Sarah fell over and hurt herself, so she decided she wanted to go back to her nanny's house. The children usually used a gate to get home from that field, but for some reason it was locked that day, so Sarah headed toward the nearest lane instead. Her brother Lee chased her, telling her to come back, but perhaps she didn't hear him. Lee turned his head to look at Luke and Charlotte behind him

and when he looked back for Sarah, Sarah was gone. Lee ran back to Les's house as fast as he could, thinking that Sarah would already be there when he made it. But she wasn't. Les asked her terrified grandson what was wrong and he eventually said, I've lost her. Les thought this was a joke at first, but soon the panic in her grandson's eyes made her take him a lot more seriously. It is just nightmarish. Yeah, it's hellish. It's like a movie. It's just this idea

of like, I mean, there's no other way to describe it, right? Sarah, even when I think about that picture of her, she looks like, it's like a lamb. And the idea that you turn your back for a moment and there is a predator waiting in the wings to snatch up your child. It's again, like you said, all of the tropes of this kind of thing. Often we talk about, you know, most times when children are killed or abused, it's done by somebody under the same roof as them. This is one of those times where stranger danger and that insane sliding doors moment Absolutely. is a reality. Yeah, and you're right to say that it is incredibly rare,

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by a person named Loti. It read in part, Three years ago today that I attempted to jump off this bridge, but this wasn't my time to go. A gentleman named Andy saved my life. I still haven't found him. This is a story that I came across purely by chance, but it instantly moved me and it's taken me to a place

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broke up a neighbour's barbecue, but no one had seen her. The day grew long, and Sarah and Mike were acutely aware that soon it would be night and that Sarah, wherever she was, would be terrified because she was afraid of the dark. But in reality, the horrific truth

was that Sarah, by this point, was already dead. The Paynes couldn't have known that, but she was. Now, after asking everybody in the village that they could think of if they had seen their daughter, they gave up and went home, certain now that everybody was looking for their little girl. Now, once back at Terry and Les's house, Sarah phoned the police, and she told the operator that she had lost her eight-year-old daughter.

The force were there in ten minutes, and soon helicopters soared above the fields, and every house opened their doors to investigators looking for Sarah. 13-year-old Lee, Sarah's brother, who had already been through his story once with the police, suddenly remembered an extra detail. He had seen a man in a white van. Yeah, another trope for you.

No, I mean, honestly. And Lee said he had seen them on the lane just moments after Sarah disappeared from view. The driver was white and scruffy-looking with bad teeth. And Lee knew what his teeth looked like because this van-driving man had smiled and waved at Lee as he had driven past. This small bit of information would turn out to be the key to catching Sarah's killer. But not quite yet.

The initial search was called off at 1am to be begun again at first light. And of course, nobody in Terry and Les's house slept that night at all. The front door to Terry and Les's house was kept open the whole night, despite the cold, just in case Sarah found her way home. Oh, that is so... just visceral. Initially, Sarah thought that Sarah must have slipped and fallen somewhere. Of course, she knew that children were abducted,

but it didn't really occur to her that it could happen to her or her family. Terry and Les lived in a safe area. It was a small village. Their estate was private and had security. Surely Sarah couldn't have been abducted. Before the break of day, Sarah ran into the field where the kids had been playing the day before, and the thought plagued her that maybe the question wasn't if Sarah was

gone. Perhaps the question was, when did Sarah go? Or worse, when did she get taken? 150 officers and even more members of the public showed up that morning to continue the search. The Payne family were asked to stay in the house. The police said it was better for them to all stay together, but perhaps they were protecting them from what they might find. Yeah, because that seems strange. There's quite a few of them. And why say all stay together when there's, like, one person stay at home and by the phone and by the door, but everybody else be out there searching?

But yeah, it's like you said, they probably were expecting the worst. So in the house house the pain stayed smoking endless cigarettes and picking at sandwiches that les kept compulsively making that nobody wanted and this day sat in the house was the first time the pain family openly discussed the possibility that sarah may have been abducted they thought that either someone had kidnapped Sarah for ransom or maybe a woman desperate for her own child had snatched her from the field or on the lane. Both of these instances meant that there was quite a big chance that Sarah was still alive. Another day passed. I mean obviously they have to look at all possibilities but like there's no history insofar as we could see that there's anything in the Payne possibilities but like there's no history insofar as we could

see that there's anything in the pain family of like there's no disputed custody there's not like a grieved father that's out of the picture that could have snatched her up or anything like that so that's immediately out of the question and also the women stealing women tend to steal like younger babies i understand they have to explore every possibility but it is just more and more looking like it is just a stranger abduction which is the worst kind because you can't connect it to anybody and I think that the reason Sarah and Mike choose those scenarios is because it means she might still be alive yes absolutely absolutely and this isn't the same exact story at all but I was watching the BBC drama. It's quite old now, but it's on Netflix. Kiri? I don't know if you've seen it. It's got, what's the fantastic woman in Happy Valley? I'm so bad at names. Oh.

I'll look her up because she deserves, she deserves the name check because she is fantastic sarah lancashire yes right so if you haven't watched happy valley what the hell are you doing with your time go watch happy valley it's phenomenal and everybody's always like oh there's not enough like women or like whatever being represented she is all of the things oh yeah and she's not even like the hot young woman no no she's just she's like getting hit on by all the men at work and she's trying to do a job no she's a grandma and she's just trying to fucking be amazing yeah, she's a decision that she thinks this child she has put with a foster family who really want to adopt her, that she should spend time with her paternal grandparents. Like her dad's an asshole, but he's not in the picture. He's like went to prison.

He's on the run, whatever. Like he's not anywhere near her. And the paternal grandparents want to see him. And then she goes missing and they find her body in the woods. And she is a fantastic actor so it is the closest i can get to imagining the reaction of somebody who loves this child even though you know she's social work she's not a family member yeah of when that child's body is found in the woods and it's almost too much i actually had to turn it off i haven't gone back to it but that is what this whole situation reminds me of. So anyway everything is going on

everybody is looking and the days are passing and the Payne family were asked by the police to make a public appeal for information. Now of course Sarah and Mike didn't think twice before they agreed so the Paynes were taken to the local police station and told that a local man who had been in the area when Sarah went missing had been arrested. But they refused to tell Sarah or Mike what the man's name was, only that an arrest had been made. Then Sarah's parents had to turn to the cameras and appeal for any information at all, stressing how lost they all were without little Sarah. And Sarah ended this appeal by saying, somebody out there must have seen her.

Maybe you don't think you did, but if you saw a little girl on her own that day, ring the police. Try very hard. The next day, the police called at the pain house to discuss the man that they had arrested on the Sunday night. Police wanted the family to hear it from them before the press ate them alive.

The man was a convicted sex offender, a paedophile who had previously abducted a nine-year-old child. She was a girl and this man had assaulted her and then let her go. On hearing this, Mike got up and stormed out of the room, slamming the door behind him. But the officer continued, saying, we don't know if he had something to do with Sarah's disappearance, but if he did, there is a hope that he hasn't harmed her.

Now, of course, that may be not the word that this officer would have wanted to use, because, of course, if he has sexually assaulted Sarah, then that is quite a lot of harm. What this officer was obviously trying to do is give the Payne some hope that this man hadn't killed Sarah. Maybe, just maybe, he would let her go. Every following day began with a press conference. More public pleas and more no-finding Sarah. Various potential sightings were phoned in. Who was sincere and who was just taking the piss, we'll never know,

but either way, these tips never came to anything. One of the major sources I looked at for this episode was a book that Sarah wrote. And she says one tip got phoned in of some lady on a motorway in a services saying that she saw a little blonde girl in the toilet on her own. And she asked the girl what her name was. And the girl said her name was Sarah. And Sarah was like, I knew immediately it wasn't my Sarah

because she always introduced herself as Sarah Payne. God, it's one of those cases that really does bring, I don't know, it's very visceral. I think that's the only way. It's even watching Sarah's appeal, like her public appeal, when she's talking about Sarah. And it's just the fear and the just like desperation. It's something you can't get away from. No. Every new hope just battered the Paynes even more when it turned out to be nothing. A week after Sarah had vanished and with no real leads presenting themselves, Officer Martin Underhill went to the Payne house once again and asked the family if any of them had heard the name Roy Whiting. No one in the family had heard the name

or attached any meaning to it, but they soon would, because in case you hadn't already figured it out, Roy Whiting was the man who had been arrested the day after Sarah vanished, the convicted child sex offender. Mindful of a case in Hastings the year before where two young girls were abducted and found alive days later in their kidnapper's home. Officer Martin Underhill suggested that the Paynes make a public appeal directly to the abductor themselves. Sarah agreed that she would do the talking. So clearly, can we surmise that what's been going on

is they've arrested this guy, Roy Whiting, the day after Sarah disappears. They haven't told the family who he is, but they've obviously questioned him relentlessly about where Sarah is, and he hasn't told them. So now it's a case of can the family make an appeal directly to him to see if that will shake something loose. So yes, Sarah agrees to do it. And standing in front of the cameras,

she says, Please bring my baby back. Then she went back to her indoors and, on police advice, packed a go-bag full of everything that Sarah would need if she was discovered. But again, and I know why the police are doing this, because they genuinely think that there's hope, that they might find Sarah alive, but it's so... When you know what happens, it's so cruel. Yeah.

It's so cruel. Because Sarah wasn't going to be found alive. And one Sarah-less week turned into two. Lee, the brother who had chased after Sarah in the moments before she vanished, wasn't allowed to talk to anyone about any of those final moments for fear of undue influence on his story, should he have to recount it in court. And of course, this is an enormous burden for a child to bear,

the idea that he wasn't allowed to talk to anyone about what will be, and I hate to say this, I don't mean to sound like he's doomed forever, but a defining moment in the rest of his life. He's 13 years old. Then the day came. On Monday the 17th of July, there was a knock at the door. Mike and Terry had gone shopping. Everyone else was in the garden.

The officer at the door told Sarah that he had to speak to her and Mike and nobody else. And he looked grim. After what would have felt like a lifetime of waiting, Mike walked through the front door with Terry. Officer Martin told the Paines, just after 11 o'clock this morning, we got a call. A little girl's body was found in Paulborough. We don't know yet if it's definitely Sarah, but as no other child that age has been reported missing, it looks like it is. After a collapse of crying and howling, screaming and disbelief, Mike went for a walk on his own.

Then Sarah was told that the body would need to be formally identified, but that that could be done forensically with DNA and dental records. Sarah was not required to do it herself. She was told that the body was in a bad state of decomposition and eventually she agreed not to go and see it. The officers left and all the Payne family could do was wait to find out if the body by the A29 was their Sarah Payne. It was. One officer did go and see the body, and he graphically described to Sarah the smell of the room,

and he added that Sarah's body was no longer recognisable of that belonging to a little girl. Sarah's body had been out in the summer sun for over two weeks. Her hair was gone, her face was basically gone, her fingers and toes had been eaten by animals, and there was no skin left on the rest of her body. Only grey decay remained. Jesus Christ. It's fucking horrific.

I'm so, so, so glad that Sarah decided not to go see the body. Yeah. I almost think in those cases they should just be like, no. Because you might think it's the right thing to do. And again, you know, it's far be it for me to say how grieving parents should deal with that situation, but you're never, ever going to not see that in your head. Oh, my God.

And eventually, Sarah was convinced by the officer, who would remember what he saw for the rest of his life, that that body was not the last memory she wanted of her little girl. Still clinging to the hope that Sarah had died in some tragic accident or fit or maybe even fright, the first post-mortem results came in and they were definitive. Murder. Eight-year-old Sarah Payne had been murdered. She had been strangled or suffocated but there were no more specifics available than that because of the advanced stages of decomposition. They'd also looked for evidence of sexual assault and hadn't found any,

but it couldn't be ruled out due once again to the state of the body. Equally, Sarah was found naked, which, as the police reminded the Paynes, almost always indicates a sexually motivated homicide. The only kind of good news that the police had for Sarah and Mike was that statistically it was most likely that Sarah was killed the night she was taken. It was very unlikely that her agony would have been drawn out for days. So now, Sarah and Mike just had to explain the concept of murder to their three other children. The youngest, Charlotte, just six, couldn't understand how they really knew that the body was Sarah's and not somebody else. Before long, another press conference was

scheduled to tell the public that Sarah had been found, but in the worst possible circumstance. And also to announce the fact that the task was now catching her killer. The Paynes asked for information about any white van sightings in the area, adding that they never wanted this to happen to anyone ever again. Sarah's funeral was held at Guildford Cathedral, yes, the one from the omen, on Saturday the 12th of August, and attendees were requested to wear colours of celebration

rather than black attire. Friends and families led the service. For Sarah, it was an opportunity to sit and listen to those who had known her little girl, and not just the stories of the press who had never even met Sarah. After the service, 12 white doves were released into the air in an act of remembrance. The Payne family, like any in their situation, really struggled after Sarah's disappearance and then her murder. Mike and Sarah understandably became absolutely terrified

of their other children leaving their sight. They often argued, and the bond of their marriage grew thin. It didn't help that the Payne family were also being recognised on the street all the time for the worst possible reason. Yeah, like Sarah would be like in Woolworths and someone would point and be like, that's Sarah Payne's mum, her daughter died. Yeah. I mean.

What's wrong with you? I don't know. I don't know. But yeah, this story, much like a few that stand out in like recent British history, like in the past 30, 40 years, etc. I'm talking like millie dowler i'm talking about the soa murders with holly and jessica sarah payne is up there it's one of those ones that every single person in the uk saw pictures of sarah and also because it took two weeks to find her and they held out all the hope in the world that she was still alive

mike and sarah were on tv a lot yes And so the downside of that was that then they became incredibly public figures for all of this when she was found dead. Honestly, I don't know how the McCanns deal with it. I know that's a very different story. But on top of that, that's Madeleine McCann's parents. It's also they're the ones that did it. Yes. I'm not saying that. I'm saying that's what people would McCann's parents, it's also they're the ones that did it. Yes, yes. I'm not saying that.

I'm saying that's what people would be saying because people are the worst. In her book, Sarah writes that the only thing that kept her going in the miserable months after Sarah's funeral was how she was going to stop this from happening to anyone else. I totally understand that because I think sometimes people can feel like, you know, how do you cope with grief? And I think, obviously, I can't even imagine what this would be like. But I think the only way that I could get through it was to find a project, was to find something I could pour all of my grief and all of my anger into. Also, just to give you something else to think about. Absolutely. Sarah was not going to let Sarah's death be in vain.

She resolved to start the campaign for what would later become known as Sarah's Law. Of course, Sarah and Mike blamed themselves. I think kind of similar to the McCanns, I think they got death threats and stuff. They got loads of people, you know, what were you thinking, leaving them on the beach? Like you went to the pub and then you went to the off license like your terrible parents blah blah blah so yes they did blame themselves and of course lee blamed himself too but it wasn't their fault no and i think the thing again that people miss because some people are fucking horrible people and it's like those people are going through the most grief you could ever imagine what purpose do

you serve in saying those things but But this is the point, right? It's not like what happened that day. They are never going to forgive themselves for making that decision. But it wasn't a decision made on a pattern of poor parenting and neglect and abuse and them just generally being shit parents. It was a split second decision where you're faced with your four children begging you to be allowed to stay on the beach. It's still light outside. You think we're just going to go down the road, look at this house, we'll be back, they're fine.

It's in the field behind their house that the kids end up going missing from. It's not even at the beach. It was one decision that they will regret forever. It wasn't part of a larger pattern that Mike and Sarah were exhibiting of being neglectful parents or something. Exactly. The blame lies solely with the person who had abducted and murdered eight-year-old Sarah Payne. So Sarah's family shifted their gaze from inward to outward. And Sarah came to realise that the system in England and Wales that deals with paedophiles and sex offenders was not really fit for purpose.

And therefore, in Sarah's mind, the institution of policing had blood on their hands too. So let's remind ourselves before we continue that this was the year 2000. Paedophile was not the ubiquitous buzzword that it is today. No one had heard of To Hunt a Predator, and everyone had only just got over Y2K. Sure, everyone knew about Ian and Myra, but it felt distant. Sarah never thought that her family could be touched by such a horror. She thought child sex offenders were very, very rare. I think that's a very important point to make, is the context of when this is happening. We are looking at this through the lens of 2023. And yes, we're not talking about a case that happened in the 70s where everybody was like,

yeah, whatever kids, I'll see you when I see it. But still, 2000s in a small town, or even a small village where they lived. It's just not something that was at the top of people's minds. So Sarah Payne found out that despite thinking that child sex offenders were very rare, she was very wrong. At the time of Sarah's murder, there were a quarter of a million sex offenders living across England and Wales. And 110,000 of them had committed sexual offences against children. So we're not even just talking like people who end up on the sex offenders register for like urinating in public, we're talking about almost half of them have

committed sexual offences against children. And every year in the late 90s and 2000s about seven children were murdered in a sexually motivated attack. The government attempted to get on top of this issue by introducing the sex offenders register in 1997. The idea was to get on top of this issue by introducing the Sex Offenders Register in 1997. The idea was to keep track of these offenders and monitor their activity across the nation. But, crucially, this list was not backdated. Yeah, so if you did anything before 1997, you're basically fine. Er, why? Why?

Difficult to track down, I suppose. Yeah, I mean, especially the ones that have been convicted, though. Their convictions are on record. Yeah, you have to be convicted to be on the sex offender's register, so you can't just be, yeah. Be like, I took a drink. Or can you be like, we'll put you on the sex offender's register, but we won't give you a conviction?

No, because if you're found guilty of public urination, that's a conviction. Just because that case we talked about under the duvet the other week, they were like, they didn't give him the conviction but they put him on the sex offenders register and that was like his punishment let's check maybe maybe just not a sentence oh maybe i don't know anyway yes like the least you could do is put the convicted ones on this list to start with so it turned out that of the quarter of a million known offenders, only 12,000 of them were on the sex offenders register by the year 2000. And on top of that, the register was totally

reliant on the offenders cooperation. They had to register themselves when they got out of prison. What? How were there 12,000 on there at all then? I know it's amazing. 97% of convicts did register themselves, because if they didn't, they got six months back inside, but they have to get caught. But 97% is not 100%. Even I can do that kind of math. Yes. Yes. So the missing 3% is significant because it represents hundreds of convicted sex offenders who are not on any register at all.

And also, not to be crass, but they're only the ones that got caught. Yeah, absolutely. So in the words of Mark Horrigan, maybe I'm just a very hard-to-catch pedo. You don't believe in ghosts? I get it. Lots of people don't.

I didn't either. Until I came face. Lots of people don't. I didn't either until I came face to face with them. Ever since that moment, hauntings, spirits, and the unexplained have consumed my entire life. I'm Nadine Bailey. I've been a ghost tour guide for the past 20 years. I've taken people along with me into the shadows, uncovering the macabre tales that linger in the darkness. And inside some of the most haunted houses, hospitals, prisons, and more. Join me every week on my podcast, Haunted Canada, as we journey through terrifying and bone-chilling stories of the unexplained. Search for Haunted Canada on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music,

or wherever you find your favorite podcasts. They say Hollywood is where dreams are made. A seductive city where many flock to get rich, be adored, and capture America's heart. But when the spotlight turns off, fame, fortune, and lives can disappear in an instant. When TV producer Roy Radin was found dead in a canyon near L.A. in 1983, there were many questions surrounding his death. The last person seen with him was Laney Jacobs, a seductive cocaine dealer who desperately wanted to be part of the Hollywood elite. Together, they were trying to break into the movie industry. But things took a dark turn when a million dollars worth of cocaine and cash went missing. From Wondery comes a new season of the hit show Hollywood and Crime,

The Cotton Club Murder. Follow Hollywood and Crime, The Cotton Club Murder on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge all episodes of The Cotton Club Murder early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus. So a large percentage of convicted child sexual assault offenders, according to the NSPCC, over 50% of them are likely to re-offend because you can't fix paedophilia. It doesn't go away. And that's like, obviously, we've talked about this before, but it's like the ones that are like actually paedophiles. And then you have the ones that are child sex offenders. And there is a difference. Obviously, child sex offenders can just be people who go after vulnerable people and kids

are the most vulnerable so they're not even particularly necessarily like I have a sexual proclivity just towards children it's just whoever they can easily access so then when you put in that definition the pool of people who could offend against children is just monumental. And it's not covered by 12,000 people. So Sarah got an idea. She remembered watching a documentary about someone called Megan Kanker, a seven-year-old girl who'd been abducted in the States in 94. She was murdered by twice-convicted paedophile Jesse Timondequa. He'd served time for both murder and sexual assault.

He was released from prison and moved in opposite Megan's family with his identity and charges protected under the law. What is going on? What's happening? I don't know. He... I don't know. I'm upset.

And after Timondequa was convicted of the kidnap, rape and murder of Megan Kanker, her parents lobbied for change in this protection of sex offenders' identities. They claimed that had they known that a sex offender was living opposite them, they would have had a chance at saving their daughter, whether that be moving their family away or something else. And their campaign was astonishingly successful just 89 days after Meghan was murdered. Meghan's law was introduced in the United States, and that law meant that parents had the right to know about convicted sex offenders living in their area. Bill Clinton, of all people, called the law a straightforward statement

of morality and child protection. Zara agreed agreed and decided that England and Wales needed a similar thing. Not sure how to get started, Sarah stayed put for a while. Previously, she and Mike had refused any money from the press for exclusivity deals or otherwise. They had been warned that should they

take any offers, as lucrative as they may be, that it could cause hostility from other news outlets down the line. And so they had refused all offers. Until they got a call from the infamously terrifying Rebecca Brooks. Thunderclap. At the now defunct Maxwell Edited News of the World. And if you would like more information, unless you are already just top hot shot on it people, you should go check out our shorthand that we released on Tuesday. It's all about the phone hacking scandal that rocked the UK and how Sarah's case, spoilers, was very much a part of it.

So Rebecca Brooks, editor of the News of the World, had a proposal for the Pains. She called it the For Sarah Campaign, and it would have two objectives. One, to lobby for Sarah's law, which would be an umbrella term for a range of new measures put in place to protect children, and at its core, the right for every parent to know about the sex offenders living in the same area as them. The second objective was much more problematic. It was to very literally name and shame Britain's worst convicted paedophiles so that the public knew who they were and therefore where they lived. Sarah Payne thought that this was a great idea. Her husband Mike was hesitant

but convinced that this way their chance to make a difference was infinitely increased he agreed to the deal the first sunday that the news of the world ran the campaign their front page was emblazoned with a picture of sarah payne the exact same one that you're all thinking of and the headline read named shamed inside the paper were the names and photographs of 49 convicted paedophiles, according to the News of the World, and the areas in which they lived. There were also quotes from Sarah and Mike begging people not to take the law into their own hands.

But, as we will go on to see not everyone listened also like what a fucking paltry little legal ass covering moment i'm not blaming zara and mike they are devastated broken parents by what has happened to them but fucking rebecca brooks to print the names and pictures of all of these people that you have publicly named and shamed and decided these are the people that we can out and then just put a little quote and be like but don't take the law into your own hands don't do it don't do anything with this information that we're giving you yeah no she knew exactly what she was doing later on with the blessing of hindsight sarah payne has admitted that she had absolutely no idea what they were getting themselves in for initially support for the

campaign was strong hundreds of thousands signed the petition for Sarah's law, badges with Sarah's face on, and the campaign's logo were everywhere. The police, the broadsheets and Parliament took a firm stance against the tactic. Exposing paedophiles drives them underground, beyond monitoring, some argued. There are many arguments against this policy.

That is a very weak one. And I don't know why that's the one that they ran with. It's because I think, obviously, we're going to talk about this, but I think when you are in a position of power, whether or not you understand the research behind this and how to best tackle the problem of child sex offenders and pedophiles no one wants to make a case for it because it is not going to make you popular that's a good point so therefore you have to go with the one that seems the most technocratic if you drive them underground we can't monitor them that's a problem for us yeah any emotional plea you make about why this is not a good idea because it causes more harm in the long run than it doesn't which we'll go on to talk about angry parents are not gonna side with you they're not

gonna vote for you it's not gonna make you publicly popular and so i think it is a very tricky thing for politicians and police commissioners etc to make a strong stance on while sounding like they're on your side even though they are who wouldn't be the bigger problem and one that we have discussed before on shorthand was vigilante justice future big brother star and then shadow home secretary ann widdicombe that's the worst sentence ever. Also, battle axe. She is. She is. Anne Whittakin was quoted as saying that the campaign,

the Forcera campaign, was inciting a mob mentality, which I hate to say it, but on this occasion, Anne Whittakin was right. In one case, father of three, Ian Armstrong, was surrounded in his home and had a brick thrown through his window by a crowd chanting paedophile. He wasn't. He just looked a little bit like one of the men printed in the News of the World. It's like some Black Mirror episode. Truly. Where mistaken identity outs you as a fucking child rapist.

Yeah. What is going to happen to your life? This one's even better. In another incident, a man's home was attacked because someone had mixed up the word paedophile with paediatrician. Oh my God. And look, this is why members of the public can't just have all the information about everything. Because, and I'm not saying it's not because people are stupid. It's because there is no topic that is more emotive than the safety of children. There is nothing that is going to get people burning down people's houses or throwing bricks through their window faster than

allegations of this. Also, two men printed on the list with their pictures and where they lived, two of the 49 weren't paedophiles at all and they were forced into hiding. Riots ignited in Portsmouth as a crowd targeted the home of Victor Burnett, who had served nine years for his part in Britain's largest child sex ring. He had 14 previous convictions and had spent three years living in a flat 50 yards from two primary schools. His car was torched and his house was bricked. The campaign for Sarah was blamed squarely for the riots. Sarah was devastated because like that's the one thing you don't want.

You're trying to start a foundation to make a difference so this never happens to somebody else's child or somebody else. And then to have your daughter's legacy tied to a vigilante mob that is burning down cars and bricking houses is not at all what Sarah could have A, wanted or B, predicted. And nobody is saying Victor Burnett is a great guy who deserves to be left alone. Nobody is making that argument at all. No. The argument I am making is that the news of the world made a huge mistake. Mistake is even, I feel like, letting them off lightly. Yeah, you're right, you're right.

Because I feel like Sarah made a mistake. Yes, yes. With the best of intentions. Sarah and Mike had every good intention in their hearts when they did what they did. Brooks knew damn fucking well what was going to happen. And do you know what sells papers? Chaos. God, she's like one of the horsemen of the apocalypse.

She truly is. So, like we said, the For Sarah campaign was blamed for this attack on Victor Burnett. Although, Sarah was later informed that the locals already knew all about Burnett's crimes before the article came out. Although, like, we're not exactly sure how much you can believe that. Also, it could have just been once the article comes out and they're like, it ignites that spark. Absolutely, yeah. Now, there were also two suicides by men whose names were printed in that list. John Potter and james oldham john potter was not convicted he was wanted for questioning over indecent assaults so again we're not saying

that these people are great people and we're certainly not putting their lives and well-being over that of potential child victims what we're saying is when you open that particular can of worms, you don't know what's going to happen and who's going to get sucked into that shitstorm. Now in the wake of the riots and the mobs, Rebecca Brooks herself got an SAS bodyguard because she can afford one. And the News of the World officers were evacuated after a bomb threat. In Sarah's own words, the Force Area campaign was actually alienating the Paynes from those they needed most, Parliament, the police and probation services.

So Sarah and Mike decided that the naming and shaming had to go, and they told Rebecca Brooks as much. The Paynes also told police and probation services that they would only drop the naming and shaming tactic if they supported Sarah's Law. What form Sarah's Law would ultimately take remained to be seen. A lot of people were fighting a lot of corners and there were a lot of egos sat around one table. But in the end an agreement was reached and a charter for Sarah's Law was drawn up on August 4th. It had three objectives.

One, to empower parents to protect their children from risks caused by sex offenders. Two, to empower victims of sex abuse. And three, to make prevention more effective. All information should be available free of charge. Sex offenders should have to register at police stations 72 hours after their release, and they would have to have their photograph taken, and they would have to re-register at determined intervals. The penalty for not registering would be five years in prison, which was up from six months, which is what it was before. And also offenders would have to notify

foreign travel agents of their convictions. And also, if... This is what they wanted. This is the Charter, right? If an offender is deemed to have a personality disorder that poses a significant threat to children, then that person shall be detained in secure housing. Next stop, Jack Straw, then Home Secretary. The Paynes had a meeting with him the following month, and guess who was invited along too?

Firehead, bringer of doom, Rebecca Brooks. Nothing against gingers. I love you. Now, Sarah left thinking that Jack Straw hadn't really listened to anything she had said. Although, shortly after this meeting, the Criminal Justice and Court Services Act 2000 was passed, and it made the following changes to the Sex Offenders Act of 1997. Offenders could no longer work with children.

I mean, fucking... Duh! Yeah, I know, I know, I know. Yeah, fucking Carla Hamalka got a job in a primary school. Yeah, and bloody... I don't know, did Ian Huntley have previous no i don't think so yeah because he was fucking school caretaker sorry back to the changes so yes offenders can no longer work with children great and sex abuse victims must also be informed when convicted pedophiles

are released i do think i'm not 100 on this but i do think that is specific to their case so it's like if your abuser is released, you have to be told. Yeah, absolutely. And there was an uproar about it, I think, last year when that cab rapist, cab driver rapist, was released. And the police, he wasn't a paedophile, he was raping adult women, but they didn't tell his victims that he was being released now lifelong restrictions could also now be imposed on convicted abusers and breaches carried a penalty of five years in jail and also like kind of said the 72 hours registration window and photographs to be kept by police were also enforced though again i just feel like you're leaving a lot up to the people to do self-reporting here and we know that for somebody who is

determined to commit a crime prison's not really a massive deterrent no because people still do it and we have re-offending rates that are pretty spectacular in this country so like is it enough to say you must register as a fucking sex offender or give you five more years in jail people like i will take the chance to rape a child are they really going to be scared by that however one of the central tenets of sarah's law went unheeded a parent's right to controlled access to information about pedophiles in their area. So basically what this is saying, what they wanted was that they wanted to be able to know if convicted child sex offender lived in their area. So you don't just get to know about all of them in the country.

They wanted the right to be able to know if there are any living in your area. Yes. Straw claimed that this would not assist the protection of children or public safety, that controlled disclosure was a better and safer route. He argued that the police and probation services were best placed to determine the disclosure of information rather than parents themselves, which I think I kind of agree with. Yeah, look, again, I understand why they were campaigning for this. When your child has been murdered and they were abducted from a field behind their grandparents house i understand why they want this but i also agree with why jack straws said no yeah so jack straws

no wasn't good enough for sarah and mike so they kept on trucking and they went on to the party political conferences and then on to morning television for mike, it was relentless. He felt like they didn't really care about him. They wanted Sarah. He wanted to be in his local with a pint, not at a women's journalism conference sipping champagne. At one of these many parties full of strangers, Mike downed a few whiskeys after a row with Sarah in an upstairs room and he left on his own. Sarah and Les went looking for him into the early hours with no luck. He rang them in the morning. He'd hitchhiked his way to his car and then driven, over the limit, back home.

Both pains were sorrowfully apologetic to each other. Mike shouldn't have left, and Sarah shouldn't have pushed him. Like, he wants to stop. He's done. But Sarah will not. Yes. And again, you can understand both perspectives. Oh, totally. I'm not criticising her at all. And I'm sure Mike also felt like we have three other children. We need to find some way to maintain joy in our lives for them as hard or as impossible as it might be.

So let's get back to the case. Roy Whiting was always the top of the police's list when it came to who had killed Sarah Payne. He looked like the description given by Lee. He also had a white van. He lived down the road from Terry and Les. And obviously, he had a previous conviction for kidnap and sexual assault of a little girl in 1994. And in that case, Whiting had snatched that little girl in broad daylight, bundled her into his car,

held her at knife point while he assaulted her, and then left her on the street. Whiting confessed to his crimes, telling investigators that he had, quote, snapped, and he got four years due to a psychiatrist deciding he was not a paedophile yeah i don't really have much more information on that what the fucking fuck is going on we've already referred to the fact that you do not need to be a paedophile to be a sexual threat a sexual danger to children yeah so what exactly this psychiatrist was doing saying that i can't diagnose him a pedophile therefore he's okay to have four years in prison for raping a child at knife point i'm sorry some of the decisions that are made in this case by the police commission by the home secretary by you know the prison service the justice system

i'm like you understand and that's why you're not allowing the naming and shaming or going along with this things like this make me wonder what the fuck is going on at the same time. Yeah. How could that decision have been made? I don't know. And it gets even worse because Whiting, while he was sentenced to four years, got out in just two.

And also, just the little dirty, disgusting cherry on top of this filthy ice cream. While he was in prison, he was offered therapy, but he refused it. Yep. And prison, he was offered therapy, but he refused it. And therefore, he was just in for two years and then out again on the streets with no hint of any sort of professional intervention. And yeah, when he was outside, he was given just four months' supervision.

I'm sure he'll be absolutely fine after that. Now, when questioned on the 2nd of June 2000, Roy Whiting said that he had driven down the coast the day before. He said he got home at about 8pm, which you'll remember was just after Sarah disappeared. And the police had their eye on him from early on. He had been questioned about a rape in Brighton recently, and the entire time he had been calm and cooperative. But this time, Roy Whiting was different. He was agitated and cynical. He also showed absolutely no concern for Sarah, which was odd, even for the most hardened sex offender. So investigators watched his house from their car. And soon they spotted Whiting walking to his van and taking out what looked like a bundle of clothes.

So the police called their detective sergeant. And when he arrived, Whiting was sitting in his van about to drive off, visibly shaking with nerves. When Whiting was asked what he had taken out of his van, he said his tools at first, and then he decided that he'd actually taken out T-shirts and socks that he'd been wearing the day before. And then he produced T-shirts

that had obviously just been washed and not worn. Whiting was arrested and his van was seized. He was taken to Bognor Regis police station and his answer to every. He was taken to Bognor Regis police station and his answer to every question was no comment. In the back of his van, police found cable ties, some in the shape of handcuffs, a knife, a spade and horrifyingly, baby oil. But with nothing more than that, Whiting had to be released from custody. But on the 24th of July, there was a stroke of luck. Whiting was arrested after leading police in a high-speed chase

through scenic crawley in a stolen car. And he was sent inside for 22 months. So the police knew exactly where he was, and he couldn't vanish. And then another breakthrough. A Velcro strap from one of Sarah's shoes was found in a different field to Sarah's body. And that Velcro strap had 350 fibres on it. And forensics were comparing them with fibres from Whiting's flat and his van. And they were 100% a match.

The red fibres matched a jumper seized from Whiting's van. This was proof beyond all doubt. On the same red sweatshirt was found a nine-inch blonde hair, which according to testing had a one in a billion chance of not being Sarah Payne's hair. More fibres were found, along with more matches. On 6 February 2001, Roy Whiting was charged with the kidnap and murder of Sarah Payne.

He pleaded not guilty as he stood in the dock at Lewes Crown Court. It was the first time that Sarah or Mike had seen this man in the flesh. After this, Sarah won a Pride of Britain award. But behind closed doors, hers and Mike's relationship continued to strain. Mike told Sarah that he brought a gun and that he was keeping it until Whiting's trial and that if he got off, Mike was going to hunt him down and kill him. But Zara felt like this made Mike no better than Whiting himself. Now obviously that's going to cause quite a lot of strain between the pair of them. And thankfully, we can say that that day never came for Mike to have to exact some sort of heartbroken father's vigilante justice.

Because Whiting's trial began on the 13th of November 2001. But it only lasted a day. Grandma Les knew one of the jurors. The trial had to be halted and a whole new jury had to be sworn in and a new trial had to be started the next day. I put that because there's something so awful. I can just imagine Les sitting being like, I know her. Yeah, and it's just the build-up to this trial,

the emotional work you have to do to get to that point and then it's just, Les knows one of the jurors, we have to do to get to that point and then it's just les knows one of the jurors we have to start again yeah so this trial was also not just because of the obvious incredibly grueling on the pain family sarah herself was in the stand for 25 minutes but thankfully she was allowed to give an agreed statement so she wouldn't be cross-examined which was a massive relief she was worried at the idea being brought up in court of her being a bad mother for leaving the children alone. Which, again, that's not, that's pointless.

What's the point of bringing that up at trial? Well, they don't have much else. Like, it's as much of a slam dunk as it gets, I think. And as if it wasn't horrific enough to just even have to stand in that dock with that man there, even if you were only giving an agreed statement, Whiting scribbled notes all the way through Sarah's time in the dock. What could he possibly be writing? But he never ever met her eye.

Then it was the pathologist's turn and she said things that we already know. That Sarah met a violent end due to a sexually motivated homicide and it was most likely that she asphyxiated to death. Then in an odd move, Roy Whiting took the stand himself. He claimed that he had been bored and fed up that day so he'd driven down the coast and stopped at some parks and at a fun fair and then for a walk on the beach you know places where children are whiting tonight having anything to do with sarah or her death and he said that all of the stuff they found in his van was just total coincidence do you think it was because like defense don't usually let yeah i know the accused give testimony because it rarely ends well whether you're innocent or not typically

people are going to do something that is going to implicate themselves. And do you think they were just like, we're fucked? We're fucked. Do what you want, maybe. Yeah, maybe. Yeah. Because they can only advise. They can't stop you. That's true. Yeah. And after that, the jury retired. It took them eight hours and 40 minutes over three days to reach a verdict. The Paynes returned to court. And finally, the day and the word that the Payne family had all been waiting for resounded in the courtroom. Roy Whiting was found guilty of kidnap and of murder. And the judge had this to say.

My judgment is that you are and will remain an absolute menace to any little girl. This is one of the rare cases when I shall recommend to the appropriate authorities After the trial, Sarah went straight to Sarah's grave to tell her that the man who had hurt her wouldn't hurt anyone else again. But she wasn't alone there, because the press were waiting. Sarah Payne's headstone reads, She took a lighted candle into a room we cannot find, but we know she was here because the happiness she left behind. Incredibly moving words, I'm sure we can all agree,

but the Paynes had asked the press not to print pictures of Sarah's grave or her headstone. Obviously, again, because you don't want that to become the site of some sort of weird, morbid pilgrimage or something that people come and do. You don't want the grave associated with anybody else. It's a private place for their family to go and grieve and talk to Sarah. Some of the press respected the Payne's wishes, but some papers printed it anyway. And the campaign for Sarah's law marched on, though Mike wouldn't do conferences anymore

and Sarah had to go alone in future. Eventually, the rift was too great. And even though Sarah was pregnant again three years after Sarah vanished and after 13 years of marriage, Mike got made redundant and he used that money to move out of their family home. They called their new baby Ellie Jane Louise. Apparently a lot of people asked Sarah if she was gonna call the new baby Sarah and she was like, no, why would I do that? That makes no sense. I don't know, people are strange. But according to Sarah, baby Ellie did look like Sarah when she slept and

sometimes she would have to double check that it wasn't Sarah. Mike went round every day to see his kids but as far as we know, he and Sarah never got back together. Sarah kept campaigning for Sarah's law and eventually she got her wish. I have seen it argued that Sarah, obviously, we're so used to the McCanns that we're like, we're very used to now families being involved in TV appeals and blah, blah, blah. And I'm not saying it wasn't rare back then, but a lot of people will say that Sarah was the first mother of a murdered child to consistently stay in the public eye and put pressure on politicians and campaign for change. However, I think people who argue that have forgotten about Baroness Lawrence, because she was doing that in the 90s. Anyway, where are we now? As I said, Sarah did eventually

get her wish. On the 4th april 2011 sarah's law was rolled out across england and wales enabling parents to ask police to check whether people who had contact with their children and may pose a risk had previous convictions so how it works is if you are worried about someone you go to the police you make an application and the police then have to disclose to you whether that person has previous convictions. Yeah. So it's not what the campaign had originally wanted, which was a blanket list disclosed to you of child sex offenders in the area in which you live. This was going to be, I'm a little bit worried about this caretaker or I'm a little bit worried about the childminder that I'm leaving my kids with. Can I check? Yeah. And when leather trouser wearer Theresa May was Home Secretary,

she told the press that thanks to Sarah's law, over 200 children have been protected from potential harm in just a year. And if you want to apply for a check, you can just get in touch with your local police force. Roy Whiting has survived several assassination attempts in prison. He was just in the news just recently, actually. But it is unlikely that he will ever get out. And that is the absolutely horrific, horrible story of Sarah Payne. Let's go and scrub our brains.

Yeah, it's miserable stuff. But, you know, what can you do? It's just, it is unimaginable. And it reads like the plot line of some horrible, horrible Netflix drama. And I think it was a sharp reminder. Or not even a reminder, because again, I just feel like it wasn't on people's radar. It was a sharp, rude awakening. For the parents of Britain that this kind of thing could happen. Very much so. Like I said, the Holly and Jessica case was.

Yeah. Madeleine McCann was. It's just one of those ones that will never leave the British psyche. No. And now it lives in your brain too, so well done. We made it through. This week's shorthand, like I said, is on phone hacking. We talk about kind of the news of the world.

We go more in depth into Rebecca Brooks's involvement in that. in that and yeah talk about some big cases that we've covered before like the millie dowler story and how that was also linked so go check that out exclusively on amazon music hooray bye goodbye Harvard is the oldest and richest university in America. Thank you. regime, and there's much more to come. This is The Harvard Plan, a special series from the Boston Globe and WNYC's On the Media. To listen, subscribe to On the Media wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Lindsey Graham, the host of Wondery Show American Scandal. We bring to life some of the biggest controversies in U.S. history, presidential lies, environmental disasters, corporate fraud. In our latest series, NASA embarks on an ambitious program to reinvent space exploration with the launch of its first reusable vehicle, the Space Shuttle. And in 1985, they announced they're sending teacher

Krista McAuliffe into space aboard the Space Shuttle Challenger, along with six other astronauts. But less than two minutes after liftoff, the Challenger explodes. And in the tragedy's aftermath, investigators uncover a series of preventable failures by NASA and its contractors that led to the disaster. Follow American Scandal on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. Experience all episodes ad-free and be the first to binge the newest season only on Wondery Plus. You can join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify. Start your free trial today.