RedHanded - Episode 339 - Sherri Papini: The Woman Who Fooled the World

Episode Date: March 14, 2024

Three weeks after going missing, Californian ‘supermom’ Sherri Papini was found running down a highway with a chain tied to her waist and the word "exodus" burned into her back.Her story defied belief. Kidnapped outside of her home, by a pair of Latina women and driven hundreds of miles with nothing but mariachi music for company, it seemed almost too strange to be true.The police investigation that followed was one of the biggest in recent memory - yet it took over four years before the truth finally came out.And what detectives found, turned out to be even stranger than Sherri's bizarre story...Exclusive bonus content:Wondery - Ad-free & ShortHandPatreon - Ad-free & Bonus ContentFollow us on social media:YouTubeTikTokInstagramXVisit our website:WebsiteSources available on redhandedpodcast.comYouTubeRedHandedSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to Red Handed early and ad-free. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. They say Hollywood is where dreams are made. A seductive city where many flock to get rich, be adored, and capture America's heart. But when the spotlight turns off, fame, fortune, and lives can disappear in an instant. Follow Hollywood and Crime, The Cotton Club Murder on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Hannah.

I'm Sruti. And welcome to Red Handed. Where the vibe of the day is. The vibe of the day. Yes, je suis très fatiguée. Suri came in and I just had my head on the desk. I saw you and I was like, how quietly can I open this door without disturbing her? Now, we're both very jet lagged, but we are powering through, even though my lips feel like they're about to crack wide open. And the reason I make that sound is not just because of how jet lagged we are powering through even though my lips feel like they're about to crack wide open and

the reason i make that sound is not just because of how jet-lagged we are but it is also the sound that i would make if we hannah were playing some sort of weird true crime edition of the excellent board game dixit which i haven't played you should go play and i had to describe this case in a sound because when i think of this woman, that is the noise that every fibre of my body makes. Because she's infuriating. Yeah. So, because you're a big

disgusting true crime fan, and that makes you the bane of society, according to everyone. Except us. Except us, obviously, which is why you should only listen to us and nobody else. You probably already know the name Sherry Papini. It's very unlikely that you've never heard it. Because most of us have. The case and face of the conspiratorial California supermum is seared into our brains forever.

But if, somehow, someway, you have managed to avoid this story, which has been plastered across every news outlet, Twitter feed, and true crime Facebook group for the last seven years, you were in for a wild ride. This is the case of 34-year-old Barbie-esque soccer mum who went missing for 22 whole days and then came back home covered in scars with the word Exodus branded into her back. I'd forgotten that bit. And that's not even the craziest part. On the 2nd of November 2016,

Keith Papini came home from work to find something very strange. His wife of seven years, Sherry, was missing. She hadn't picked up the kids from daycare and she hadn't left him a note or a message to explain if there had been some sort of problem. This wasn't like Sherry at all, so immediately Keith was worried. Then he had the bright idea of checking Sherry's location on his Find My iPhone app, just to put his mind at ease. Unfortunately, Keith's mind remained very

much uneased, because the app showed that Sherry's phone was just at the end of their driveway. Now it is important to mention that this is a rural American driveway and not one of our tiny little stupid British ones, so it is easily several hundred metres from their house. But when Keith looked out of the window, he couldn't see Sherry out there. When Keith headed down to the end of the drive to see what was going on, it only got weirder.

He found Sherry's phone. It had been placed on the ground with her headphones neatly coiled on top, entangled with what looked to be some long, blonde, torn-out strands of hair. Hair that did look a lot like it belonged to his missing wife. And it was at this point, at around 5.50pm, that Keith rang 911. I couldn't find her, so I called the daycare to see what time she picked up the kids. The kids were never picked up, so I got freaked out, so I hit, like, the find my iPhone app thing. And it said that her – it showed her phone, like, at our end of our driveway. We don't have really good service. Okay.

Not the end of our driveway, but the end of our street. But just drove down there, and I saw her phone with her headphones because she started running again. And it – I found her phone, and it's got's got like hair ripped out of it like in the headphones so i'm like totally freaking out thinking like somebody like what's your grabbed her okay what's your address right okay what's your last name yes papini p-a-p-i-n-i and your first name uh keith k-e-i-t-h. Okay. Did you go pick up your children? No, I'm going to call my mom and have her do it. Okay.

What's your wife's name? I'm going to, like, knock on every door. Sherry, S-H-E-R-R-I. And same last name? Yes. Do you know what she was wearing? Is there something she always wears? I'm assuming she went running, so probably wearing athletic type clothes.

Okay, there's not an outfit she always wears or anything like that. Does she run with a dog or by herself? By herself. Okay. What time were the kids? She just started running again, and we live in a superman. When's the last time you heard from her? She sent me a text asking me if I was coming home for lunch.

What time was that? She sent me a text at 1047 asking me if I was coming home from lunch from work. And I said, sorry, long day. And that was the last. I never spoke to her on the phone or any other contact. Okay, and what time are the kids supposed to be picked up? Way before 530. She usually goes at like 445. Okay.

430, 445. Oh, my God. I don't know if I'm allowed to knock on everybody's door, but I will if I'm allowed to do that. Let's just have the officers contact you so they can start, you know, processing everything, figure out what's going on, okay? And I understand you're freaking out a little bit. We want to make sure we get your kids, make sure they're okay. Yeah, I'm going to call my mom and have her go down. Yeah, they've been stuck at your phone number.

Yes. Do you want me to wait right here for somebody? If you want to head back to your residence so they can contact you there, and in case she does return. Okay. Okay. As you just heard, Keith is stressed, but he's calm, he's very helpful, he's informative, and he's cooperative.

It's what you want a 911 call to be. He just wants to find his wife. And he clearly has no idea where she is. It was completely out of character for Sherry to vanish like this. So pretty quickly, a major police investigation was underway. But frustratingly, there was very little evidence to actually go on. There was Sherry's phone and her hair, but nothing to suggest where she might be or who might have taken her. A few of the neighbours said that they had seen

Sherry going for a jog around the time she'd last texted her husband Keith, but again, nobody had seen anything suspicious. It made no sense. Sherry was this perfect mother, a young, beautiful wife living in a safe part of the country. And suddenly, boom, she was just gone. And so, naturally, the story of her disappearance began to dominate the headlines. As for Keith, for the next few weeks, he became the partner we'd all want if we went missing. He set up search parties, he appeared on the local news and he even turned up at a town council meeting to plead for more help in finding his missing wife. But weeks passed and there was still no sign of Sherry Bepini. And at this point, things were starting to look pretty bleak. Doesn't take a genius to work out that if a ransom note or a letter apologising for a runaway

hadn't turned up by now, the odds weren't exactly stacked in the favour of Sherry still being alive. And as time ticked on, Keith Papini began to find himself increasingly in the spotlight. But now, it wasn't because of his husband of the year behaviour, but rather because people were starting to get suspicious of him. And so it's no surprise that the Shasta County Sheriff's Office spent quite a bit of time looking into Keith. It is, after all, a pretty good bet that in a case where somebody disappears that the spouse is involved, so of course they have to look at him. However, in their interviews over the following weeks, Keith continued to be nothing but cooperative. He talked with investigators

for hours about Sherry's disappearance, poring over every possibility. Keith even went into intimate detail about their marriage and took a polygraph test to prove that he wasn't involved. Now obviously, as you guys know, we know that polygraphs are nonsense, but Keith did unquestioningly do everything that was being asked of him. And again, Keith was very candid. He told the police that Sherry had a habit of being quite volatile. She was quick to anger and made rash decisions, and according to Keith, Sherry often escalated arguments

to the point that he was scared of what she might do. In fact, Keith admitted to the police that Sherry would regularly threaten to take his kids away from him if she didn't get her own way. So, despite appearances, this couple clearly had their issues, but was any of it connected to Sherry's disappearance? I think the fact that Keith openly tells the police about all of these things in a circumstance like this

where most people would be inclined to just present the best possible version of their marriage is also quite telling. I don't want to spoil everything because obviously we're trying to build some drama here but when you first hear about this story Keith seems almost too good to be true. The first time I heard that 911 call I was like fuck you Keith You're a fucking liar. You're just a good one. But I think, yeah, it's a really complicated story in some ways because it kind of goes against all of the usual tropes that you expect from the true crime genre. Hmm. And the police couldn't grab hold of any tangible evidence pointing towards Keith being responsible for Sherry's disappearance. But they certainly did dig up yet more dysfunction.

There was so much to dig up. Because unfortunately for Keith, it was actually during these same interviews with the sheriff's department while he was spilling the beans on the pair's personal life that he himself was made aware of some skeletons lurking in his own marriage. Detectives told Keith that they'd been through Sherry's phone and found hundreds of romantic and sexual messages on there to other men. Men who had all been disguised in her contacts as women. Nice one, Sherry. These men that Sherry

had been texting ranged from ex-boyfriends to just random men that she'd met online and at conferences the classic is i mean i worked in conferences for many a year and you fucking saw it everywhere i was like this is so inappropriate one time a man cornered me and took his top off oh yeah at a cocktail like hour i was like are you are you mentally ill? Put your clothes back on. Are you crazy? He was like, I just want to show you my tattoos. Because yes, they were all in North America. And I was like, somebody help me. Anyway, the most important thing here is because I think the sheriff's department obviously know about the messages. They're the ones that find it. Keith has no idea. But they're confronting Keith with it after a while because they wanted to see if he brings this up. And if he had known, it's obviously a perfect motive for why he might

have killed his wife or done something nefarious. But Keith is adamant that he had no idea. But the texts were odd. And obviously, it made the police look again at Keith. They weren't just going to take his word for it. If he had known about his wife's double life, like we said, he really is the prime suspect. But Keith maintained his innocence and just said, despite all of her indiscretions, all he wanted was for Sherry to come home safely. And luckily for him, Keith wouldn't have to wait that long. Just as quickly as Sherry Papini vanished, she suddenly reappeared. And luckily for him, Keith wouldn't have to wait that long.

Just as quickly as Sherry Papini vanished, she suddenly reappeared. Hi, I have an emergency. There's a lady on the side of the road. She's chained up. She needs an ambulance. Do you know where you are? No. Are you chained up?

Yes. So, get this. The Ontario Liberals elected Bonnie Crombie as their new leader. Are you chained up? Yes, yes. So, get this. The Ontario Liberals elected Bonnie Crombie as their new leader. Bonnie who? I just sent you her profile. Check out her place in the Hamptons. Huh, fancy. She's a big carbon tax supporter, yeah?

Oh yeah. Check out her record as mayor. Oh, get out of here. She even increased taxes in this economy. Yeah, higher taxes, carbon taxes. She sounds expensive. Bonnie Crombie and the Ontario Liberals. They just don't get it. That'll cost you. A message from the Ontario PC Party. He was hip-hop's biggest mogul, the man who redefined fame, fortune, and the music industry. Thedy built an empire and lived a life most people only dream about. But just as quickly as his empire rose, it came crashing down.

Today I'm announcing the unsealing of a three-count indictment, charging Sean Combs with racketeering conspiracy, sex trafficking, interstate transportation for prostitution. I was f***ed up. I hit rock bottom, but I made no excuses. I'm disgusted. I'm so sorry. Until you're wearing an orange jumpsuit, it's not real. Now it's real. From his meteoric rise to his shocking fall from grace, from law and crime, this is The Rise and Fall of Diddy. Listen to The Rise and Fall of Diddy exclusively with Wondery Plus. As you just heard, in the early hours of the 24th of November, which happened to be Thanksgiving Day, someone saw Sherry Bepini running down a highway around 140 miles away from where she had gone missing.

It was a chilling scene. Sherry had a chain tied around her waist and bindings on her wrists and her ankles. It's like the scene in Elephant Butt. Yes. Is that where that was? Truth and Consequences? New Mexico. So what was the town called?

So there's two towns. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. So actually all happens in Elephant Butte, but Truth or Consequences is one town over. Sure. If you don't know what we're talking about, we're obviously talking about the David Parker Ray case. Go listen to it.

We've definitely covered it. It's fucking horrible. It's also in the book. In that, they obviously find a woman running down the street with a chain around her neck, and she's completely naked. And that is kind of the scene that is being recreated here with Sherry Papini. So absolutely harrowing stuff. I can't even imagine seeing a woman running down the highway with a fucking chain tied to her.

Scary. So shortly after Sherry was found, an ambulance arrived and she was taken straight to hospital in Sacramento. It was there that the true extent of the young mother's condition became clear. Her legs were bruised, her nose was broken, she had burns all over her arms, and she'd also lost a substantial amount of weight. But most concerningly of all, Sherry had a brand which had been burned into her back

that appeared to spell the word Exodus. The police, and now the FBI, were both desperate to talk to Sherry. Yeah, the FBI get involved pretty quickly with this case because it looks like people trafficking. That's what this is, so of course they're going to get involved. But when Sergeant Kyle Wallace from the Shasta County Sheriff's Office first came to interview Sherry in hospital, things didn't exactly get off to a good start. The moment Wallace entered the room, Sherry became hysterical. She screamed at Sergeant Wallace and the nurses,

saying that she just wanted to see her husband. So Keith was brought in and slowly, Sherry did actually start to engage with some of the questions that Sergeant Wallace had for her. In the documentary on this case, tellingly called Lies, Lies and More Lies. Look, I don't want to shit on this documentary. It was very helpful in the research for this episode, but we work quite hard on the titles for our episodes. You know, as a team, we'll go over it. We'll like brainstorm ideas. ideas will give options to be voted for i really feel

like they were just like yeah they'll do lies lies and more lies okay sure but yeah it's a good documentary you should go watch it it makes me think of my friends when i was in la just now everyone was talking about gypsy rose and the most recent documentary that just came out the series that i haven't watched and they were like like, where she's from? It's called like, No Fucking Hope Louisiana or something. It's Cut Off Louisiana is where she's from. Cut Off Louisiana. And we couldn't think of her. It's like, fuck off and die, Louisiana. No hope of escape, Louisiana. Anyway, lies, lies and more lies. Did manage to get audio from this interview and it is fascinating. It actually doesn't seem to be available anywhere else on the entirety of the internet, so we can't play it for

you here, but we will leave the link in the episode description to the documentary so you can check it out for yourselves if you are so inclined. But basically, the way that the interview plays out is like this. The first thing that is glaringly obvious is that at the start, Sherry can't or won't give any specific answers about what actually happened to her. However, over the next hour or so, Keith and Sergeant Wallace do manage to pull together the following chain of events. According to Sherry, she went out for a run around lunchtime on the 2nd of November 2016. When she got to the end of her driveway, a vehicle pulled over and a woman in the passenger seat pointed a small pistol at Sherry out of the window, saying, we don't want to hurt you. Sherry says that

she followed the gun-toting woman's orders, placed her phone down on the floor, wrapped up her headphones, and then secretly ripped out some of her hair as a clue for Keith. And then she got in the car. After this revelation, Sherry completely loses it and begins wailing and repeatedly apologising to her husband Keith for being stupid enough, and those are her words not mine, to get into the car. When Sherry eventually calms down, she says the next thing she remembers was being in the car with something over her head. She says that she doesn't remember much about the journey, or even how long they were driving, because she kept falling asleep. She makes no mention of them, like, you know, slipping her anything, or like, drug drugging her would you be

abducted by somebody with a gun and then just have a look on that you probably would i mean i mean once they start the car then i can't be responsible but unless sherry also has the very specific form of vehicular narcolepsy that i have then i'm not accepting this how have you fallen asleep i say the woman who never met a car she didn't fall asleep in look man i've got to say that I have, then I'm not accepting this. How have you fallen asleep? I say. The woman who never met a car she didn't fall asleep in. Look, man, I've got to say, maybe Sherry had the same problem as me. I had a very, very severe travel sickness when I was younger. And the only way to combat that is to be asleep, is to be completely unconscious. And that's my reasoning. And I'm sticking to it.

But Sherry is also asleep. And she has no idea what the fuck happened to her apparently. I once offered to buy through those travel sickness goggles that are like water. And she was like, no, because if they work, I'll have to wear them. That is true. And then not only will there be multiple pictures of me in every form of transport Hannah and I have ever done together with me pushed up asleep in some random position. I'll also be wearing goggles and I'm not about to let that happen. Anyway, Sherry doesn't describe any drugging, but she does describe how she woke up in a mysterious room with zip ties around her wrists and dressed in different clothes that didn't belong to her. And it was at this point that she said she became properly acquainted with her abductors. Sherry described them as two Latina women, one older and one younger. They both wore masks and black leather

gloves and spoke to each other in Spanish. And when they weren't in the room with her, the two women played loud music outside the door so that Sherry couldn't hear what was going on. Sherry will later elaborate that it was mariachi music. Of course. What all the Latinas listen to. That's how you know. She didn't even see their faces. She was just like, mm, that's the mariachi music.

I think it was first they played Enrique Iglesias, but in Spanish. And then they just played mariachi music. And I couldn't understand what they were saying anyway, because they were just speaking in Spanish, but they did definitely do that. Sherry told investigators that she actually made an attempt to escape as soon as she woke up on the first day of her captivity, but the women had caught her.

And as punishment, Sherry was secured to a long chain and attached to a metal pole in a cupboard. And then the torture began. According to Sherry, the two women beat her regularly, starved her, burned her and cut her hair. When questioned if she knew the motive of her captors, Sherry said that the two women had made some vague suggestions that she was going to be sold on to some buyer

and that this buyer was in some way connected to the police. My question is, did they tell her this or did she just have enough of a grasp on the Spanish language to understand that particular bit of their conversations? I don't know. But according to Sherry, this buyer was also the reason that her kidnappers had branded her with the word Exodus. Again, are they telling her this? It seems very confusing. And the police agreed it was all very unusual. The idea that someone would kidnap a woman to be sold as some sort of sex slave, but then would starve, beat, burn, break the nose off,

and just generally make her look worse, didn't make a whole lot of sense. And I think that is one of the key things that doesn't like really add up quite early on in the story like i don't get it especially when sherry wasn't really at risk of escaping now that she was chained up to a pole in her cupboard or whatever the fuck she says and the two women also weren't like filming their attacks as far as sherry says so it clearly wasn't like they were beating her up and torturing Sherry for this mystery buyer's like sadistic kicks or something. So why would they torture her like this? Why would two women who abducted you

like get their kicks by torturing you if they're going to sell you to this person who probably wants you in pristine condition and they're not even filming it? Like so many questions, so many questions. It's very confusing. But the police did have to admit, whatever had happened, the evidence that Sherry had been abused was all over her body. Sherry then said that at some point during the two weeks that she was held prisoner, she heard a gunshot from outside the room that she was locked in. After that, she never saw the older

woman again. And a few days later, she was blindfolded by the younger woman, put back in the car, and dropped off where she was eventually found on the side of the road. Now that might sound like we've just sort of strangely rushed through Sherry's initial story, like we haven't really gone into too much detail. Just like we've given you some sort of shorthand, yes, that is a plug, go listen to shorthand, available on Amazon Music, and given you some sort of, like, abridged version of events.

But we really haven't. This is basically exactly how Sherry's first interview with Sergeant Wallace went. Her story was vague and confusing and lacking in any real detail. It created a lot more questions than it did answers. Who were these two Hispanic women? Who was this mystery buyer who had wanted Exodus branded into Sherry's back? Does anyone actually listen to mariachi music? Who is Enrique Iglesias? Was the mystery buyer a policeman? And why had one woman seemingly shot the other and then just

released Sherry back into the wild? None of it made any sense, but what it did make was headlines. This story had completely taken over the news and social media when Sherry first went missing, but now it became an international sensation with her having returned home. A beautiful young California supermom, as she often referred to herself, goes missing for 22 days, abducted by a Hispanic gang of people traffickers with connections to law enforcement. But against all the odds, she manages to make it home to her devastated husband and adorable kids, complete with obvious signs of torture and a biblical verse branded into her back?

It's not hard to see why it caught the public's attention. And now, with the added attention on the case, came more resources, but also more pressure. The Shasta County Sheriff's Office... It's very hard to say. It's extremely hard to say. Very, very. When you're in the flow of it, Shasta County Sheriff... She sells seas flow of it, Shasta County Sheriff.

She sells seashells on the Shasta County Sheriff's Office. To Sherry Papini. The Sheriff's Office and the team of investigators from the FBI applied for over 20 different search warrants and began examining every inch of Sherry's life, trying to find some clue as to who would have taken her and why. But with all leads going absolutely nowhere fast, four days after Sherry had been found, the FBI decided that they needed to speak to her again. Her first interview, we already know, hadn't given them much at all, but she probably had been in shock. The second time around, investigators hoped that

Sherry might be able to remember a little more about her terrifying ordeal. Anything that could help them get closer to the truth. So on the 28th of November 2016, FBI agents headed over to the Boppini home for the first of two interviews that they would conduct over the following two days. And oh my god, these interviews. They go on for so long we will leave the link to the full video ensemble that you can go and watch it's like almost five hours long and it is just fucking irritating is to put it mildly both interviews feature sherry and keith and they seem to have been filmed in her house like you said like just over the dining room table. And although Keith is there, Sherry definitely does most of the talking. And boy, does she talk.

She talks about the kidnappers playing mariachi music in the car, even. So they've just abducted this woman. And, you know, like they're probably like, fine, we were going to have to like spend the entire drive to wherever we're taking her, pointing this gun at her. But she's just fallen asleep. So turn up that mariachi music. We're fucking chill. I have to say, when we were on those boats in Mexico and that woman started singing mariachi music extremely loud, I felt like I was being abducted. And the only way to survive is to fall asleep. So yeah, they're just having a fucking regular Cinco de Mayo in this car,

which I think is something, while they're abducting her. So yeah, basically Sherry is now talking a lot more than she was in that first interview and giving a lot more information. She even tells the FBI how she fell out with one of the women over the tightness of her zip tie. This really isn't on.

Oh my God, they're like so tight. Can you not? And she goes on and on, offering up so much more information than she had originally been able to recall. However, it was not actually the information that Sherry gave in these interviews that was particularly noteworthy.

It really is more the manner in which she gives it. What do we mean? Well, the first thing that really strikes you when you watch these interviews is that Sherry appears to have some kind of quip or anecdote for every single part of her story. I was talking to my husband and they weren't even untying me. And he said, we did untie you! And I was like, get the fuck out! No, you didn't!

Because he yelled back at me like we didn't I'm like no you didn't oh my god I just can't cope I watched this entire five hour fucking saga at like times two speed and it doesn't make her less irritating she just thinks that she is such a good storyteller and such a good actor and I know she's not the first person we've come across like this she's giving me major like Casey Anthony vibes spoilers but yeah she is just so there with the quips like she's been thinking about this she's been rehearsing it and it's the tone of this interview especially when you just hear audio clips and you don't see the video that kind of makes it seem like this interview took place

months after Sherry was abducted, because she seems so nonchalant. But the interview took place four days after Sherry was found on the side of the highway with a chain tied around her waist. Her broken nose is still strapped up. And yes, we're not here to judge someone on how they cope with trauma, blah, blah, blah, how many times we have to say it, because everyone does it differently. And there is certainly no universal response to having been through a nightmare, high-stress situation.

But I do think it's hard not to find the sickly sweet way in which Sherry seems to have a punchline for all of the most distressing parts of her story. Just bizarre. And also, during this interview, Sherry repeatedly mentions how much she loves true crime. She's one of them. I mean, one of us. And she also talks, and this is just so jarring to listen to, she talks about how it's such a strange coincidence that this all happened to someone who's such a big fan of Elizabeth Smart's book. Elizabeth Smart is, of course, the 14-year-old girl who was abducted in 2005 from her home in Salt Lake City. She was held captive for nine months by a man named Brian Mitchell and his wife, Wanda Barzee. Elizabeth was eventually rescued

and has gone on to become a highly regarded child safety activist in the US. I just have to say, Sherry makes such a big thing in these interviews about, like, oh my God, like, I'm such a big fan of true crime. And this happened to me. Isn't that wild? And I'm like, no, Sherry, you're a white woman in your 30s living in America. It would be more shocking if you were like, oh my God, isn't this so weird that somebody who hates true crime got kidnapped like this? She's so annoying.

And on top of the weird true crime chat, Sherry made quite a big deal throughout these interviews as to how frustrated she was at various points of her kidnapping. She goes on and on about how angry she was with this pole that was keeping her locked in the room. But she really does come across as quite insincere when she's saying this. And a lot of this interview, we have to say, feels very rehearsed insincere when she's saying this and a lot of this interview we have to say feels very rehearsed it feels like she's giving monologues to be cast in the role of elizabeth smart in the upcoming biopic that's what it feels like and she's just delusional enough to think that she could play a teenager so the shelf i could grab like the ledge, you know, if I was on my tip tip tiptoes, I could grip the ledge and then there was this

pull Attached here came down all the way up Fucking pull is the only reason why I was there Now the last thing we want to mention about this interview is that Sherry seems to be deliberately trying to make the officers feel uncomfortable. Why does she do this? They are on her side throughout the conversation. When you watch the interview you see there is no inkling of them even slightly pointing the finger at Sherry at any point. At this point, four days after she's found, there is no way that she is suspected of any wrongdoing.

So why does she kind of make these weird little comments that we're going to go on to talk about to make them feel uncomfortable? It really feels like a ploy to avoid answering more questions or avoid having to give more detailed information. She's sort of using this tactic to cut the conversation short when she feels like she's losing control. So, for example, Sherry starts out the interview by explaining how intrusive this whole process

of her having to answer questions is and how unhappy she feels about them knowing all about her and Keith's private business. A feeling that she describes, like she's a 14-year-old girl, as icky. Gross. Yeah. Stop it. If you are over the age of...

11. 11, and you use the word icky or fire, you're in the bin. Get in the bin. You're cancelled. I was at Tassie's wedding. I was at the bar and this teenager came up to me who was wearing those trainers that are like split in two,

like hooves and like a polo to a wedding. He was like, like your whales looks fire. Like the tattoo on my...

Oh my God. And I was like, I can't believe you actually talked like that. That's nuts. It's acceptable. He's a child. It's fine.

I'll allow it. Now, Sherry doesn't actually describe anything as fire unless maybe she did say later. I did realize afterwards that mariachi music is fire, but she definitely says icky. And again, it just feels so childlike, the way that she's presenting herself. Is it really that that's who she is, or is it kind of a manipulation tactic? I don't know. But the key thing is, anytime that Sherry is pushed to talk about something, which she says that she doesn't remember, she very quickly Sherry is pushed to talk about something which she says that she doesn't remember,

she very quickly falls into a pattern of talking about something awkward, which clearly is meant to disarm the investigators. A perfect example of this is during these interviews, when the FBI agents pushed for more information about the brand that had been burned in Sherry's back, according to her first interview that she gave in the hospital, this brand had something to do with the mystery buyer. However, in this second interview, Sherry said that she couldn't actually remember what happened when she was branded. And when she's pushed, the first thing Sherry brings up

is her breast implants, saying that she can't remember much because she was so absorbed by the pain of being face down on her implants. She even followed this up with an apology for making them feel uncomfortable. Could you hear anything like in the exchange of the letters? So let's say they dropped to E and you could hear that metal ting. Was there any other noises like they were reloading, like making the next letter? That's what I'm trying to remember was there a clicking or no not that I can recall okay and that's really it's that tinging I remember that team but it was also I was I feel like I was in and out because the pain was so excruciating um in between from

and I apologize guys but I from my implants they it was all of my weight directly on them also. And it was hard to breathe with all of that too. And you can see them looking uncomfortable. And you can feel them sort of acting uncomfortable after they said it. Like they don't want to pursue that line of questioning because it's awkward. But she knows what she's doing because she's like, oh, I'm sorry. Am I making you uncomfortable? Like, I'm sorry for making, like, shut up, Sherry. So whatever was really going on,

the investigating team took Sherry's word for it and started to look into all of the new little details that she had given them, of which there were literally hundreds. These details mostly revolved around the layout of the room in which she'd been held, the style of the furniture, and other tiny bits of information, like a crack she remembered on the tiles in the shower. But let's face it, if you're trying to find a vaguely Hispanic gang within driving distance of Northern California, and all you have to go on is a crack in a shower somewhere, things are going to take a while. And years passed with not much to write home about, investigation-wise. Sherry and Keith went back to their lives. She looked after the kids, reasserting herself as a super-mom,

and Keith went back to working at Best Buy. Two years after the abduction in 2018, Sherry worked with the FBI to produce two composite sketches of her kidnappers, which were circulated across national news channels. You can find these sketches online, but there really isn't anything to say about them, other than they look like two generically Latino women wearing masks. And so, of course, these images didn't turn up any new leads either.

So now, the case, at least from Sherry and the media's perspective, had gone completely cold. However, in the background, the FBI was still plugging away. When Sherry had first come home, all of the clothes that she'd been wearing had been taken away for testing and the FBI had found foreign DNA belonging to both a male and a female on Sherry's clothes. Initially there was no hit in any database for either DNA profile. However, a whopping four years later, the FBI would finally catch a break. In 2020, they used our new best friend in the world of crime-fighting,

familial DNA testing, on the male samples found on Sherry's underwear. And they got a match. And when they tracked this man down and got his side of the story, everything fell shockingly into place. And Sherry started to look a lot less innocent. But for now, we're going to hold back from revealing this man's identity. For dramatic effect, so bear with us.

What you need to know now is that this was a huge turning point. And in the documentary, it's never made entirely clear whether or not the police had actually suspected Sherry was lying from the beginning or not. They didn't. They definitely didn't. But now, with this new information, they all hint at the fact that they were kind of onto her the whole time.

But they never go so far as to explicitly say that they suspected her but yeah we don't really believe them no it's very easy to say with hindsight isn't it now they're all like oh yeah like i knew i knew all along we're just playing along shut up like i don't blame like she you know there wasn't much to go on that pointed at her they did believe her they They listened to her. They investigated. They did everything properly. So I'm not like here to shit on them. But don't pretend that you knew.

They definitely didn't. They obviously had to follow up on what Sherry had reported to them. But they spent hundreds of hours and millions of dollars chasing Sherry's wild leads. The police spent hundreds of man hours alone just trying to track down an unusual coffee table that Sherry had described to them as being in the room in which she'd been held. Not to mention the FBI sketches that we mentioned earlier. It was the investigators who made sure they were so highly publicised and they came two years after she came home. So even at that point, she wasn't on their radar as being a suspect. And it also doesn't look like at any point

they actually looked into Sherry herself. Like, they didn't really dig into her past, despite what they found on her phone with all those men pretending, you know, like, listed under women's names and all the sexual messages and stuff. So it is a little hard to believe that they were on to her the entire time.

Regardless, on the 10th of August 2020, Sherry was brought in to be questioned by detectives. At the very start of this interview, Sherry is reminded that lying to a federal officer is a crime, something which she just brushes off as though this would never be a problem because she had nothing to lie about and she'd never told a lie in her life. Next, the two investigators inform Sherry and Keith, who sat right next to his wife the entire time, that they think they found the house in which Sherry was held captive. In some ways, like, I admire her in a psychopathic way because she just, as we're going to find out throughout this interview, does not give a fuck. If somebody brought you into a room, Hannah,

and was like, if you lie to me, there's going to be problems. I'm scared. I'm like, what did they know? Oh, immediately crying. Immediately crying. Yeah. Sometimes I just go upstairs in our house and then just shout down to Sam and I'm just like, what's this? And you're panicked. He'll come running upstairs and I'll be like, nothing.

But what are you so scared about though? What are you so scared that I found? It's fun. But no, she has none of that. She has absolutely none of that. It's wild to, again, watch this whole interview. We will leave a link in the episode description. It's hard not to, on some level, biggest controversies in U.S. history. Presidential lies, environmental disasters, corporate fraud. In our latest series,

NASA embarks on an ambitious program to reinvent space exploration with the launch of its first reusable vehicle, the Space Shuttle. And in 1985, they announced they're sending teacher Krista McAuliffe into space aboard the Space Shuttle Challenger, along with six other astronauts. But less than two minutes after liftoff, the Challenger explodes. And in the tragedy's aftermath, investigators uncover a series of preventable failures by NASA and its contractors that led to the disaster. Follow American Scandal on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. Experience all episodes ad-free and be the first to binge the newest season only on Wondery Plus. You can join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or

Spotify. Start your free trial today. Harvard is the oldest and richest university in America. But when a social media-fueled fight over Harvard and its new president broke out last fall, that was no protection. Claudine Gay is now gone. We've exposed the DEI regime and there's much more to come. This is The Harvard Plan, a special series from the Boston Globe and WNYC's On The Media. To listen, subscribe to On The Media wherever you get your podcasts. She holds it together when investigators pull out a whole load of pictures which match the descriptions that Sherry had given them of a room that she had been tied up in, including an unusual coffee table, a crack in the shower,

and the very irritating large metal pole. And this was Sherry's reaction. So if you look at this closet... I literally was cleaning papers out yesterday and found that drawing that you did. I haven't even looked at the picture yet, but I've seen it now. Can I look at it? Yes! I just found the original one of that and I was trying to explain. It's a little bit different, but...

It's pretty... Excuse my language, it's pretty fucking similar. But... It's different. What's different or what's the same? There's a lot of shit in the photos, but... Now can I ask a question? Is this from the same house as the... We'll get to that.

Okay. What... What'd you see in this photo, Sherry? You said it looks very similar. I mean, this is what I'm remembering, that feeling, you know, grabbing it and feeling that feeling, but this part is different. This part is different. That doesn't definitely... So you're saying this metal part, it looks the same as what you remember, but this piece right here... This part doesn't look the same, right? And what was the difference in it?

That there was a lot more. There was a lot more there. Like bulkier? Yes, thank you. As you can hear in that clip, Keith is clearly convinced that these are the things that Sherry has been describing. If you watch the video footage, he literally like fist bumps the air. He's like, oh my god, they found it. They found the house you described, Sherry. But Sherry, on the other hand, who sat next to him, seems a lot

less convinced. She keeps pointing out little inconsistencies with the picture and saying that they're close, but not quite right. She's acting like, I don't know, they're like designing a house for her and it's not quite matching her expectations. They found this house and she's like, oh no, like this isn't quite exactly what I remember. It's really wild. And this back and forth carries on for the next 10 minutes with the investigators bringing out more and more evidence that matches Sherry's initial descriptions but she just keeps dismissing it. This interview is honestly one of the most frustrating yet fascinating interviews that we've ever watched.

It's frustrating because Sherry just keeps going on for example about how like the wood panelling is just a little bit too thick to be the wood panelling that she remembers from the room that she was held in etc etc but it's also fascinating because you get to watch in real time someone who's been lying to the police and the FBI for four years get destroyed all in front of her extremely confused husband. So after about 20 minutes of listening to Sherry deny that the house that they had found is the one that she was inside for the three weeks she was missing, the police decide to tighten the screws a little. We're showing you all of this because ultimately this is the house. We found the house, we

found who was involved, we talked to family who knows that you were there and talked to a couple people that, or talked to one guy who did see you during this event. Fortunately, there's a lot of truths and then there's some unknowns. Like, one of the simple ones, like, well, this description of the bathroom is just weird. Like, that was like an argument in all of our offices where we were sitting there like,

this part's weird. But then we find a house with it. That is, without a doubt, one of the most unforgettable moments we have ever seen in any police interview ever. And we've seen a lot of them. Oh, my God. It's like they're just like, OK, enough. They've tried for ages and they think she's going to crack.

And they're like, OK, enough. We know this is the house. Enough of your fucking bullshit. Over the course of around four minutes, you watch Keith Papini go from celebrating the fact the police have found the house to realising that there is something horribly, deeply wrong. Poor Keith. He is like Mr Naivo.

He is the most naive man I've ever met. In an adorable way, I feel really sorry for Keith. And at this point, you might imagine that the jig is up, but you don't have Sherry Boppini's brain. Shockingly, Sherry does manage to wrestle back some control as the two detectives leave the room to give the couple a second to talk alone. So Keith, at this point, when the police walk out, is now looking at his wife like,

what the fuck? And he actually tells Sherry, you need to stop whatever it is you're doing. And this is like, probably the most confrontational thing Keith has ever said to Sherry. But Sherry, at this point, just goes off. She starts flitting between crying and then very firmly telling her husband in these weird, like very dramatic, hushed tones, like the police interview microphone still won't pick up everything she's saying, that she doesn't want to take this any further because she now doesn't want investigators to find and arrest the woman who saved her life and allowed her to hold her babies again.

It's a complete plot twist. And Sherry is now pretending that what the police say she's hiding, because that's basically what the police said in front of Keith, that she's hiding something, is that the only thing she's hiding is the identity of the woman who freed her, even though they have already said that they have matched the male DNA. So she's just complete, I'm just gonna ignore that bit. I'm going to keep talking about how my only motivation is I do not want them to find the woman who freed me. And Sherry very much here is still just trying to paint herself as a victim. But more than that, she's also now a saviour, a martyr, trying to save her poor abductor who set her free.

It's Casey Anthony in the halls of Disney HQ all over again. The woman will just not stop lying, no matter how bad the situation is. And so, predictably, once the detectives are back in the room, Sherry goes right back into ignoring their questions, deflecting and minimising. Even though they assure Sherry that the woman she says she's trying to protect won't get into trouble, Sherry still persists. Now clearly at breaking point, the two detectives at last give up any pretense that they don't know exactly what happened.

So the DNA came back to James Reyes. The DNA that was on you belongs to James Reyes. The picture in the... Can I get the picture? The picture of the table is James Reyes' little brother who died recently. He... We talked to him. He's been on the polygraph. We talked to everybody around him. We have the rental agreements, phone rental, car rental agreements. We've been on a polygraph. We've talked to everybody around him.

We have the rental agreements, phone rental, car rental agreements. We have everything that says that he said he told the truth. That's James' brother, deceased, Nick. So everything, you've told us so many truths in this situation. The reason why you can describe the room is because you stayed in the room in the dark for hours, for days on end. The reason why you lost so much weight is because you stopped eating. The reason why you got a rash on your arm is because you cleaned his house. The reason why the brand is because he went to the store, bought the brand new tools, and branded you. The reason why your nose was broke is because of a

hockey stick. I know all of those things and I know there was no sex. I know all of that because he passed a polygraph test that said it's not an abduction. She asked me to come get her. No. I rented a car. No. I drove up and picked her up. He passed the polygraph test, Sherry. If that's not what happened, what didn't happen, Sherry? I don't know. No, there's no way it's changed. There's no way. There's no way.

The DNA doesn't lie. His DNA. His DNA was on you. There's no way. There's no way it's James. There's no way. I'm not sure that it is. Why are you saying it's not James?

So there you go. The identity of the man who matches the male DNA found on Sherry's clothing is James Reyes. Who is James Reyes? Well, Enrique Iglesias. It's Enrique Iglesias. It is Mariachi name. No, it is of course Sherry Papini's ex-boyfriend. And yes, the house in the pictures and the DNA from her underwear both belong to him. Now you might imagine that this is it. Surely now it's game over for Sherry Papini. And for a second in the footage, it does seem like even she is stumped. She sort of puts her head in her hands and she's like,

seriously, I need to think of more lies? Okay, fine, give me a second. Because then, just as you heard, she twists again and now breaks down into tears, looking absolutely horrified. And when I heard this statement, I honestly, just my jaw dropped. She goes, I can't believe James was involved. So what of this James character? I think it's time that we finally met him and have a little look about what he had to tell police when they first tracked him down, thanks to that familial DNA.

James Reyes is basically the epitome of a classic Southern California bro. He's the one that tells you your whale tattoo is fire. He is the polar opposite of Keith, Sherry's clean-cut husband. James rocks a huge, wild beard, and almost no photographs exist of him where he's not wearing a giant trucker hat. He's effectively a lifelong bachelor who's committed his entire

being to ice hockey. By day James works at an ice hockey shop, by night he played ice hockey and that was basically the entire extent of his life. It's never been made public how James and Sherry actually met. According to some of the news articles we've read, they've been friends since they were kids, and then they dated for a while at some point in their lives. They are very different. To even call them chalk and cheese would be an understatement of epic proportions. And the mystery continued,

because initially, when the team investigating Sherry's disappearance arrived at James Reyes's door on the 10th of August 2020, he was not that keen on talking to them. But eventually, after over an hour of questioning, James finally caved, and he told investigators the following story. At some point in 2015, a year before Sherry went missing, she had reached out to James, out of the blue, and the pair began to rekindle their relationship. James was aware that Sherry was married with kids, but over the next year, Sherry made it increasingly clear that her marriage to Keith was one that she wanted to get out of.

According to James, Sherry told him that Keith was abusive, both physically and emotionally. Sherry even told James that Keith would get violent and had even raped her. James said to investigators that he'd been so worried for Sherry's safety that the pair had actually started using prepaid burner phones to avoid any possibility of crazy Keith finding out. And as the months passed, Sherry started telling James that she needed to escape. So together they came up with a plan. On the 2nd of November 2015, the day that Sherry

went missing, James had asked a friend of his to rent him a car. James drove that car from his beachside home in Costa Mesa, 10 hours all the way to Shasta County, at the other end of the state. There he picked Sherry up and drove the whole ten hours back to his house. But according to James, he was worried for Sherry once they got there. Over the next few weeks, she spent all of her time indoors, cleaning. She absolutely refused to ever even set foot outside of the house. Sure, James thought, she had just escaped from an abusive husband, but surely she was safe out in Costa Mesa. They were hundreds of miles away from Crazy Keith. And never going outside, he feared,

would be disastrous for Sherry's mental health. And that's exactly what seemed to happen, because Sherry began harming herself, hitting herself, according to James, with planks of wood and even cutting off clumps of her own hair. He also said that she started to eat smaller and smaller portions of food and then asked James to help her with the self-mutilation. And this is an important point to this story because throughout this case and all of the reporting on it, James Reyes is sort

of cast as this kind of hapless bystander, someone who didn't know what was going on at all, someone who was just dragged into this case against his will. Yet, he readily admits to the police that at Sherry's request, he used a wood burning tool that he had purchased from Hobby Lobby to burn the word exodus into her back. And that he had also, and this is unbelievable, punted a hockey puck into her nose after she had asked him to do that in order to successfully break it. Why Reyes did any of that is a complete mystery. Because he thinks that she's fleeing from her husband. He doesn't know that she's plotting this sort of elaborate, I've been kidnapped scam.

So why does he do it? That's such a good question. And he maintains to this very day that he really thought he was helping her get out of her abusive relationship. How he thought breaking her nose with a hockey puck would achieve that is anyone's guess. He doesn't strike me as the sparkliest hockey stick in the gym locker. Perhaps Sherry had told James that she needed some evidence of physical harm in order to get Keith arrested, and he went through with it all because he was saving her? We don't know. Nobody knows. But whatever James Reyes was getting out of this arrangement,

other than a clean house, doesn't seem to have been sex. James maintains that at no point during Sherry's 22-day stay with him did they engage in any kind of romantic relationship. And you could say that that's a bit difficult to believe given that his DNA was found on Sherry's underwear, but investigators do point out in the documentary that that is not necessarily from sex.

And I will set it to where I'll say again, DNA gets absolutely fucking everywhere. It's not necessarily an indication that anything happened. Unless they found his semen on her underwear. Like, it doesn't mean anything. And to be honest, we don't really think that Sherry was into James. She didn't run off for an affair. She was using him because he was probably besotted with her

and he was stupid enough to let her do it, I think. Yeah. And I don't want to make lazy comparisons, but it's literally gone, girl. She's just like, there's this ex-boyfriend slash friend and I can just use him to get what I need because he'll do whatever I ask him to and I don't even have to sleep with him. Still it's hard to know what the truth is but regardless James said that the weeks passed with Sherry acting more and more bizarrely. Very likely in a response to all of the media hype about her disappearance. I suspect that the way this story sort of like took on a life of its own may have been even more than Sherry Papini anticipated.

And I think that's why she becomes increasingly desperate to build like a rock solid return home abused case. And then suddenly, according to James Reyes, the night before Thanksgiving, Sherry told him that she wanted to go home because she missed her kids. So she asked him to get her a six-foot-long chain and then drive her back home. And he says that he did what he was asked. He got her the chain, rented a car, Sherry chucked all of her clothes in some industrial bins,

and then threw her burner phone out the window on the drive home. James Reyes then dropped Sherry off where she was found, 140 miles from her home, on the 24th of November 2016. The police sum all of this up for Sherry in the interview, while an absolutely bamboozled Keith Bepini just stares at them. The detectives also tell Sherry that they had plenty of evidence to back up what James had told them. There was physical evidence that James Reyes' house is where Sherry Bepini had been while she was missing. James had also taken time off work that matched the days that she vanished and then turned up.

The police even had evidence that Sherry herself had given them, since James Reyes' house matched her description of where she had been to a T. James had also known about the specific injuries that had never been made public, like the position of the brand mark. And the police also found the burner phone details. And James's cousin had actually seen Sherry Papini in James's house.

Yeah, it's kind of like just a complete slam dunk. I would use an ice hockey analogy, but I don't know ice hockey well enough to do that. But Sherry was not going down without another delusional fight. Because she then, in this interview, spends the next 40 minutes adamantly refusing to admit that James was telling the truth. In fact, she doesn't just refuse to admit it. Sherry Papini downright refuses to even acknowledge what the police are confronting her with. There are points in which, and honestly, it's one of the strangest things I've ever seen.

There are points in this interview where the two detectives are looking Sherry in the face and saying, we know you're lying. To which she just replies, I just can't believe that James was involved. It's like you're watching three people having two entirely different conversations. It's so, so strange. She's just so delusional. The whole interview is completely mind-boggling. And the worst part of it all is that the entire time,

Keith Pepini is in the room, slowly shuffling his chair further and further away from his wife, and looking ever more confused. Eventually, Keith does leave the room, looking utterly exhausted, as the two detectives continue to try and get Sherry to confess. And just to give you an idea of how long this went on for, here is a clip of Sherry, one hour and seventeen minutes into her conversation with investigators still talking about how she doesn't want the woman who saved her life to get into trouble oh my god this is after the James Reyes revelation everybody is way past that narrative I think yeah not Sherry she's like can I just can I which bit are we talking about now? It's, honestly, here is the clip. You don't want to talk about the women.

So, but the one... You're saying that it's James. No, I'm not. We're saying James' DNA was on you. We know you were in that room at his house. Then who was the woman? Then who was the woman? Then who is the woman? Well, about the woman.

Did the woman put a pointed gun at you and put you in the car, yes or no? Is that where we're at? I don't remember. You don't remember if a female pointed a gun at you and put you in the car? Is that what you're saying, Sherry? I've always told you I don't remember getting in the car. I've always told you I don't remember

getting in the car. But did a female I don't remember getting in the car. But did a female point a gun at you, yes or no? You know who she is. I know you do. It was always key. You know who she is. The lady we showed you is another raid. I know James opened the door for you.

Whether you want to forget how you got in the car, I'm okay with that. But you've already established today, that's why I asked you today, what did the younger girl do? You said she let me go and she pointed a gun at me. We didn't talk about how you got in the car. Right now I'm asking you, did a younger female point a gun at you? Yes or no? I know you know who she is. I'm not saying I don't want her to get in trouble. I know you know who she is. You're getting in trouble. I am not. I didn't do anything. But right now, answer this one question. Did a female point a gun at you, yes or no? I am done speaking to you until I talk to a lawyer. I will not arrest her.

I am with my children because of her. It's wild. It's wild. I just think, like, there is a lot... I keep saying delusion, but I don't know if that's what it is. That's the word that feels appropriate to use, but I don't think she is delusional. She thinks that she can delude everybody else. I don't know. I do think that she knows exactly what is going on. I think probably what's more accurate

to say is the level of arrogance that's on display here from Sherry Papini is honestly unfathomable. She will just not drop the act. But eventually, an hour and 24 minutes into the interview, Sherry tells the two detectives that she wants to speak to her attorney and the interview is finally over. But the case in many ways was just getting started. Now, of course, the story went re-viral again all over social media. And here is actually a golden oldie clip of us reacting to the ex-boyfriend revelation when it finally came out. I think it was under the duvet or it might have been in the news but here it is reyes told the police that sherry had not been kidnapped at all they were having an affair she'd been at his apartment oh no yes oh my god no way i did not know this yep well welcome to the news fucking hell keith who initially told

police that he believed what they had to say, then turned around and stood by Sherry for another two agonising years. That was until the 22nd of March 2020 when Keith finally separated from Sherry and applied for sole custody of their two kids. When Sherry was arrested and charged

with making false statements to a federal officer and committing mail fraud, the second charge was connected to the fact that Sherry had applied to the California Victims' Compensation Board and been granted about $30,000. Sherry Bepini, who faced up to 35 years in prison for her charges, initially maintained her innocence. However, six weeks after her arrest, Sherry signed a plea deal admitting that she had orchestrated the hoax

in return for an 18-month prison sentence. And so, Sherry Bipini went to prison in September 2022 and served less than a year before being released to community confinement in August 2023. And for many, that was the end of it. However, a glaring question still remains for us. Why on earth did Sherry Bipini, supermom, do all of this? Well, there are three main theories that have been put forward. Sex, money and attention.

So let's break them down one by one. Did Sherry Papini just want to sleep with someone else outside of her marriage and so concocted this whole thing to facilitate that? We think not. Firstly, Sherry was already speaking to a whole host of men outside of her relationship and she didn't seem to be finding it particularly difficult to meet potential guys to hook up with. So she didn't really need to run away for 22 days, break her nose, burn her back in order to make this happen. On top of this, James Reyes adamantly maintains that the pair never had sex while she was in his house,

and I believe him. Yeah. So what about money? Sherry admitted in one of her earliest police interviews that she had read Elizabeth Smart's book. So did she put together this entire conspiracy to try and sell a story? And what about the $30,000 she got

from the California Victims' Compensation Board? Well, Sherry never actually made that much money out of this whole ordeal. She never wrote a book or sold any kind of exclusive interviews to the press. Sure, Keith and Sherry gave a few interviews, but hardly enough to make any big money. And as for the compensation she got from the Victims' Board, well, that money was given to her by way of paid-for counselling sessions. It wasn't just cash put in her pocket. It seems more likely that Sherry applied for it,

possibly thinking that she would get it in cash, or maybe sneakily as an attempt to lend more credence to her story. So a lot of people do dismiss money as having been a reason. And while we do agree that we don't think money was the key purpose, we do have to say that just because Sherry didn't get a big payday from her hoax doesn't mean that wasn't her motivator at all. She just wasn't very good at monetising her drama. So let's lastly look at the third possibility, attention. We do think that this seems to have been the most likely reason. Sherry's hoax came two years after Gone Girl, the novel by Gillian Flynn, came out. In that, spoilers, the main

character also runs off to a hapless ex-boyfriend who was smitten with her. And there is also no denying that there exists this culture now of how some missing persons cases go absolutely batshit viral on social media and in the news. And as we've had this kind of amplification in online fascination and obsession with such stories, there's also been a rise in hoaxes like this. Take, for example, the Carly Russell case, who was, I believe she was a nurse. I didn't actually make notes on this, we talked about it on Under the Duvet a while ago. She was a young nurse in her 20s, pretended that she saw a toddler on the side of the road, then hangs up her phone and basically disappears for a while and then comes back home and pretend she was abducted. The police very quickly realised that she was lying. And of course,

there was the very infamous celebrity case of Jussie Smollett. I forgot about that. Never forget Jussie. Never forget Jussie. So yeah, like, I just think there has to be some connection that we're seeing these kind of rise in people pretending something has happened to them as we see this absolutely astronomical rise in social media obsession with missing people. I think she was after a cash grab, possibly, but definitely after an attention grab.

And the fact that when she first came home, Sherry Bepini repeatedly chased the police on what progress they had made with her case, it doesn't exactly look like she was trying to keep a low profile and hope that she could pick up some fast cash and move on. Yeah, she's the one that calls them again and again. It's like, where are you with my case? She doesn't just disappear. She wanted her story to remain in the news and at the top of everyone's mind, which, when you're lying, is a very risky game to play. So it was clearly worth the payoff for her. But what is there from Sherry's past?

Nobody wakes up at 34 and decides to abandon their children and husband for 15 minutes of fame. Well, when investigators started speaking to people that she had known, they found one of her high school boyfriends, who described Sherry as attention-hungry, and he claimed that Sherry liked to make up all sorts of stories, but the common theme was that she was always the victim. The director of Sherry's youth group also spoke to the police and said that as a teenager, Sherry was, quote, good at making up realities for people,

and he said that she had always got people to see what she wanted them to see. There was even a report that had been filed with the Shasta County Sheriff's Department in 2003 by none other than Sherry's own mum, in which she claimed that her daughter had been harming herself and then blaming her. So attention being the key motivator does seem to fit perfectly with Sherry's past behaviour.

And I think this question is the one that screams out in my mind. How was this report from 2003 in particular, how was that missed by police who were investigating this case for four years? That is completely beyond me. Like, how did they not even look at police reports that had been made against the person that had gone missing. They clearly didn't look into Sherry at all, which again flies directly in the face of them now saying, oh, we were kind of onto her the whole time. Over the years since Sherry Boppini's case has made headlines, you can imagine there have been countless attempts to decode her behaviour,

psychologically speaking. And all too often, experts land on the notion that Sherry Boppini might be a victim narcissist. Victim narcissists are characterised as self-centred and insecure. They often make themselves the hero by creating a villain out of nothing. And at times, they'll even create a whole host of fictitious bad people in events for their friends and family to unite against. This personality disorder is typically characterised by low conscientiousness and high neuroticism, as well as being incredibly reactive, impulsive and irresponsible. We think that Sherry Papini

undoubtedly got a lot of joy from the fact that her entire community rallied together to look for her. And that when she was back, the news described her as a supermom who had done everything she could and managed to survive such a terrible ordeal just so she could get home to her family. She's the ultimate martyr. In fact we think that she was probably pretty happy with all of the news stories even after she was convicted. The truth is that Sherry was someone who craved attention no matter what it took to get it. Whether it was from her husband, ex-boyfriends, random men she'd met at conferences, or an entire community.

And I think the most telling thing is the price she was willing to pay, the risks she was willing to take to get that. That is what makes it terrifying. Of course, we all come across people who are attention-seeking and the lies they'll tell, the tactics they'll use. But the level to which Sherry Papini was willing to go to get this, the payoff it must have given her, I think it tells you how empty she must have been inside despite the fact that she had a seemingly very nice husband a nice house two kids etc she was bored out of her fucking yeah she wanted to be a star she wanted to be a star and she craved

desperately for the world to pay attention to her yeah exactly and it happens natalie holloway's mom produces true crime documentaries now she's a presenter and i think that there are a lot of people out there who say you know that have a lot of sympathy for sherry papini i believe the actor who's going to play her and like the film about sherry papini was like everybody ignores all the mental illness in her background and all of this but like even her parents and her siblings are like she just lied all the time this is how she was her entire life. And it's hard to get away from the fact of how many people she was willing to hurt. Her children included to get what she wanted and just how much fucking time she wasted and money she wasted.

So, yeah. Do I have a lot of sympathy for Sherry Papini? No. No, me neither. Do I think going to prison for longer than she went, because I know a lot of people on the other side get very angry that she didn't serve a longer jail sentence. I also don't particularly think sending Sherry to prison is going to solve anything. And also on the face of it, like she's not Laurie Vallow. Like she didn't take her kids with her, you know, like the only physical harm she caused was to herself.

Yeah. I think what's wrong with Sherry Papini isn't going to be solved by her going to prison. She needs, like, some intensive therapy. And those children need Keith. And thankfully, he has full custody. Mm. So that's it, guys.

That is the long-requested case of Sherry Papini. Check out the documentary and we'll see you next time for some other things. Goodbye. Bye. Bye. You don't believe in ghosts?

I get it. Lots of people don't. I didn't either until I came face to face with them. Ever since that moment hauntings, and the unexplained have consumed my entire life. I'm Nadine Bailey. I've been a ghost tour guide for the past 20 years. I've taken people along with me into the shadows, uncovering the macabre tales that linger in the darkness, and inside some of the most haunted houses, hospitals, prisons, and more. Join me every

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But things took a dark turn when a million dollars worth of cocaine and cash went missing. From Wondery comes a new season of the hit show Hollywood and Crime, The Cotton Club Murder. Follow Hollywood and Crime, The Cotton Club Murder on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge all episodes of The Cotton Club Murder early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus.