RedHanded - Episode 342 - The Panama Girls: Lisanne Froon & Kris Kremers

Episode Date: April 4, 2024

Ten years ago, two young women entered the Panamanian cloud forest, accompanied by a dog named Blue. Blue was the only one to ever return. The events that transpired on Panama’s El Pianista trail that day have remained a chilling mystery for a decade now – and possibly will forever. Join us as we delve into the perplexing case of Lisanne Froon and Kris Kremers, where speculation abounds and answers remain elusive. Exclusive bonus content:Wondery - Ad-free & ShortHandPatreon - Ad-free & Bonus ContentFollow us on social media:YouTubeTikTokInstagramXVisit our website:WebsiteSources available on redhandedpodcast.comYouTubeRedHandedSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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And welcome to Red Handed. Where, for the first time in a while, we have a guest in the studio. We do. It is a four-legged friend. We have got Mabel Maguire in the office today. Obviously, we'll edit out any particularly troublesome moments, but fingers crossed, she just had a little nap. Hopefully. And i actually can't believe i've forgotten to tell you this uh-huh before i went to la i had to take mabel to the vet for her kennel cough vaccination otherwise they wouldn't take her and i was just sitting in the like surgery and there was a guy sitting outside and then i came out to pay and he went

i'm sorry is your surname mcguire and i was like yeah and he was like I've been listening to your podcast for years which is very unusual for a middle aged man. Anyway it turns out he is the dog trainer for that particular vet. He's a really famous dog trainer who does like Thursday evenings with puppies at the vet surgery

That's hilarious. And he was like oh and I heard you speaking about Mabel or whatever and I was like oh was I having a breakdown and then the vet surgery that's hilarious and he was like oh and I heard you speaking about Mabel whatever and I was like oh was I having a breakdown and then the vet came out whose name's Dale and he was like oh is Mabel a podcast star and then this guy I think his name is Joe was like well kind of and because I had obviously said about having a breakdown the vet was like the amount of single people who come in here with puppies and just fall apart and burst into tears like it happens all the time and i was like well i think i've managed to keep it together in here but at work not so much oh there you go that's fun you're a celebrity maybe but a quiet one quiet well-behaved one we hope yes a silent partner in this throuple of true crime today

so we did a red herring on this i think didn't years and years crime today. So we did a red herring on this, I think, didn't we? Years and years and years ago. In COVID, yeah. We did a red herring on this case. RIP red herrings. But it's a fascinating one. It's a really, really interesting. I know, Hannah, you don't find missing persons cases

as interesting as I do. I think it is interesting, especially the more modern ones where you're like like how can that happen how is this possible so this one actually is a 10-year anniversary so i think that this episode is going out on the 4th of april to like main feed red-handed but basically what you need to know is this week is essentially the 10-year anniversary for these two girls having gone missing. And it's crazy. It's absolutely crazy.

So let's get into it. On the morning of the 1st Chirique, leads through the beautiful Panamanian cloud forest by the Baru volcano, and it should have taken them about three and a half hours. It's like quite a straightforward hike. I think that's the key thing that I remember from having covered this case in the past and having looked into it. And I haven't been to Panama, actually. It was one of the places I wanted to go when I did South America, but I found it quite hard to figure out how to get from Panama to Colombia, because obviously, the Darien Gap is there, it's very hard to navigate. I think they were saying like, you have to go through the San Blas Islands on a boat. And I

was like, well, no, thank you, because I see a boat and will just dehydrate myself from throwing up endlessly. So I didn't go there. But I think anyone who has traveled to South America, it's kind of just standard hike. That's just like, yeah, three and a half hours. Take a backpack, take some water, take some snacks, take a hat and wear proper shoes and you'll be fine. They're not like going out into the great, great unknown.

They're not going out into the Darien Gap or anything crazy. No, they also weren't on their own. they had a little friend with them and this little friend like mabel had four legs and was called it says in the script blue what is blue in spanish azur yeah and that was his name i'm not going to whitewash him fair fair fair fair, dogs named Blue fucking everywhere. I've got two of them. But yes, Azul joined a joined in on this little hike. So Azul had actually been lent to the girls by the owners of a restaurant at the start of the trail because they were like, please don't go on your own. And the girls were like, we'll be fine. And they were like, please take the dog. So that's what happens.

And when you see pictures of the two women, who we're obviously going to go on to introduce, but their names are Chris Kremers and Lisanne Froon, I think they look younger than they are, which is why I accidentally started off the show by calling them girls. But I think it's because you see the pictures of them. They're 20, 21, but they look very young, I think, for their age. And Azul the dog was the only one who returned from the hike. The women were never seen again, in one piece.

The disappearance of Lisanne Froon and Chris Kremers has remained a haunting mystery for a decade now, and only Azul the dog truly knows what transpired in the forest that day. As for the rest of us, all we can do is speculate. And you'll be completely unsurprised to hear, dear listeners, that the investigation was botched from the very beginning and Panamanian authorities have been accused of multiple fuck-ups, cover-ups and incompetence galore since. Now in this episode we'll take you through the known events, evidence and leading theories of whether the women's lives were claimed by misadventure or by murder. Did the Panamanian rainforest swallow them up?

Did the women cross paths with cartel Sicarios? Or were they harvested for their organs? Do you remember that Emily Blunt film that was called Sicario? Yes, I never watched it and everybody always tells me how good it is but i just i'm not that interested in drug shit i also haven't watched it but i remember the tagline really pissing me off because it was like in mexico sicario means assassin i was like that's just the spanish word that's just the spanish word for assassin that's so stupid so i didn't watch it because that annoyed me fair i mean yeah i'm just i'm not that like like i know we did that episode which i felt really passionately about actually when i wrote

the script it was about all of the cartels and how they were killing women the femicide that's going on mexico it's still going on it's worse than ever but otherwise like the actual day-to-day running of i don't care don't care but anyway they could play an important role in today's case in which case I do care very much so but yeah lots and lots of theories there were other theories as well that came out about people wondering whether the women had been hunted by some sort of cannibal tribe after making a wrong turn or perhaps they had been kidnapped raped and murdered by some sort of opportunistic predators they just so happened to come across. We're going to get into it. This is the story of Lisanne Froon and Chris Kremers. In early 2014, 22-year-old Lisanne and 21-year-old Chris moved into an apartment together in their

home city of Amersfoort in the Netherlands. The pair first met in a cafe where they both worked part-time. Both of them had just recently finished their undergraduate degrees the previous September. So to celebrate, they decided to go on a trip to Panama together, something they had been saving up for for about six months. Panama also, of the South American countries, central South American countries, it doesn't strike me immediately when somebody says they're going to go to Panama as the most dangerous place. No. It feels like one of the places that would probably be a bit safer to travel. So yeah. Lisanne had studied applied psychology and was the more shy of the two, despite being six foot tall. How fucking Dutch. Just casual. Yeah. And a very

talented athlete with a penchant for extreme sports. And unlike Chris, Lisanne had been to Latin America before. It was actually during a trip to Peru with her parents that Lisanne developed a bit of a love affair with the continent and its culture. As for Chris, an amateur actress and aspiring art historian, she hadn't ever travelled further than southern Germany. So this six-week trip, 9,000 kilometres from home, was a huge deal for her. And because Chris had graduated with a degree in cultural social education, she suggested that they apply to

volunteer at a children's school while they were there in Panama, which the women managed to do. They got in touch with a volunteer coordinator who landed them a place teaching English at a school in Boquete called Aura. When the big day arrived on the 15th of March, Chris and Lisanne flew from Amsterdam to San Jose, Costa Rica, and caught a bus to Bocos del Toro in Panama. Once they arrived in Bocas del Toro, which is on the coast of Panama, Lisanne made a short diary entry about her deep dislike of Costa Rica and her love of Panama. And this is what she wrote.

I would not want to be found dead in San Jose, although the chance of this is quite high there, but I could live in Bocas for the rest of my life. Now I'm going to chime in with my Costa Rican experience. She's not wrong. San Jose is fucking horrible. So I haven't been to Costa Rica, so you will have to tell us, Hannah. So I've actually lived in San Jose, but I've also been to Bocas. So I feel quite well rooted in what I'm about to say. San Jose, everyone knows it's horrible. But because of, as you were saying, the way travel works and planes quite a lot of the time, if you want to go anywhere in Central America, you fly into San Jose first and then make your way to wherever you're going. It's the cheapest ways to get the bus. That i did when i went to bocas it's like eight hours in a horrible bus also what you're told to do in that

they didn't say the same thing about nicaragua but in panama you were advised to keep your bag on you and not let the bus driver put it underneath the bus because gangs would stop the buses with machetes and steal all your stuff yeah Yeah. So I remember that quite clearly. And it being about Panama and not Nicaragua, because I did both. So I took the very same bus that they took down to Borges. The thing about Costa Rica, and San Jose in particular, is because it's so close to the equator, it gets dark at 6pm every day, year round.

Wow. And you do not, under any circumstances in San Jose, get on a bus after dark sure i made friends with a taxi man who would drive me home for free because he saw me at a bus stop after i'd been working late he was like i know your friend anetta who was another english teacher he was like i don't want to drive past and see you on your own so i will drive you home you just tell me luis what a guy so yes san jose especially if you're not there long enough to acclimatize to it which a lot of people aren't because they're just in and out.

They'll like stay in their hotel because you're told it's dangerous. But because I lived there for nearly a year, I have a different perspective. But I can completely understand. Like you wouldn't sit in a park, even in broad daylight. It's just not safe. It's not a safe, happy or clean place. Yeah. And everyone you meet who has been there is like

get me out of here now so i understand yeah it's very much the vibe that the the two here were feeling and bocas i think it's a bit naive to be like i can live in bocas for the rest of my life bocas is a party town yeah i went there for Christmas when I lived in Costa Rica and it was also the time I had sex with the most attractive man I've ever had sex with in my life. He's Australian. His name was Abraham and I will never forget him. Christmas day 2013. Most attractive man I've ever, ever had sex with. Where are you now? Well, that's the question. You don't believe in ghosts? I get it.

Lots of people don't. I didn't either until I came face to face with them. Ever since that moment, hauntings, spirits, and the unexplained have consumed my entire life. I'm Nadine Bailey. I've been a ghost tour guide for the past 20 years. I've taken people along with me into the shadows, uncovering the macabre tales that linger in the darkness. And inside some of the most haunted houses, hospitals,

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So there are actually a lot of Australians in Panama because the surfing's so good. So he and his friends were there for six weeks. They had a little boat to get to their house. So we left the bar and then got on a little boat in the dark to go to this strange house in Borges. Anyway. The things you do when you're in your early 20s yes exactly so i think

you know that's why obviously chris and lasanne you know they're 20 they're 21 obviously i think they arrive somewhere new it's exciting it's probably a lot more exciting than amma's fruit right and i think you know they're just enamored with it and you see it all the time as again someone who has traveled but also someone who has come from a developing country you'd see a lot of times people just being like oh my god it's it's like paradise here. And I'm like, the people here can't feed themselves. It's not paradise. You're having a great time because you're staying here with a Westerner's budget for a few weeks. So no, I am always ever grateful. The more I travel, the more grateful I am to be British and to be able to come back here. So

they were feeling naive, but that's because they were very, very desperately young. And their first trip solo. Yes. So they spent two weeks on the southern tip of Isla Colon in the Bocas region, lounging on the beach, eating seafood, sightseeing, learning Spanish and drinking Panama stuff. I believe the national beer of panama is bohemia it's red comes in a red can and the nicaraguan national beer is tonia and that's a white and green can and they go and if you travel drink the beer drink the sealed beer don't drink the

spirits because i remember it was actually in asia but wherever i was i think it was in indonesia the people who were drinking like the spirits that they were selling in the bars, like in the local bars, they were just spiking it with fucking ethanol and people were going blind. Oh my God. So the best advice I have for anybody who goes traveling is drink the sealed cans and the bottles of beer because there is at least some regulation on how that's brewed. And you might not go blind. So after their two weeks of fun time,

the girls arrived in Boquete, which is a small mountain town in the westernmost part of the province on the 29th of March. They were set to begin their volunteering work at the school the same day and they'd even received a confirmation from the coordinator just a few days before.

But things just didn't go to plan. The head teacher of the school told the women that there wasn't a place for them that week and made it clear that the school didn't require any volunteers. It must be quite irritating to have these Westerners who have no experience of teaching English at all just be like, we're just going to come and hang out at your school for two weeks and then we're going to fuck off.

Like, I just, I think it's weird. I think it's hard for these schools because i did go and volunteer in an orphanage when i went to peru but you pay the orphanage so it's a really good source of revenue for these places because they just had like some dorms that you could sleep in and that was it you know you paid for your own food you sorted yourself out and yes what we did was very low left like we'd go we'd like pick up the girls from school we'd walk back with them we'd like hang out with them we'd do fun stuff and they did learn some English or some cultural stuff I guess from us as we were learning some

Spanish from them and I think you know it was just something for these kids to do and some different people to hang out with though I was very perturbed by the fact that there was absolutely no background check into me no background check into anyone who was staying there so literally anyone could have rocked up and done this volunteer work but I think as a source of revenue for these places it is really really good because we were paying like you know like a hundred quid a week or something which is a lot more than you would pay for a hostel and if that money goes to be spent on the girls that were there that's a great thing and very easy. We are not even recognised or given a friendly welcome.

I think it would be scary to turn up at school. You've talked to the coordinator, everything is going ahead and then you get there and they're like, sorry, who are you? Yeah, I agree. They tried another local school called Casa Esperanza but that didn't work out either. And Lisanne texted her dad saying, we've been sent away. We're really disappointed. So with their plans of volunteering out the window, the pair had to decide how to fill the next four weeks of their time in Panama. The first thing they needed to do was find a place to stay. And a quick Google search led

them to a homestay in Alto Boquete. And alto means? I've forgotten. Tall. Tall. There we go. So here the women were welcomed by Miriam Guerrera, who lived with her daughter and grandson and had been hosting foreign travellers for six years. The girls were determined to not let the situation with the language school ruin their trip, and they were determined to make the most of it.

So they booked some guided tours over the following weeks, with the first one set to kick off on the 2nd of April, which left them with a couple of days to kill. So, on the 31st of March, Chris and Lisanne wandered around Boqueta, learning more about the town they were now in. That day, Lisanne seemed to be coming down with the flu. She had coughing fits and a sore throat. I mean, it could have been a cold, but she could also have been struggling to just adapt to the high altitude of Boqueta, which is around 4,000 feet above sea level. And yeah, like, I think when I was in Cusco,

which I can't remember how high it is, but it is pretty high up, it'd obviously been told about altitude sickness before, but I'd never experienced it before. And yeah, it really fucking takes it out of you I thought it would just be like you're out of breath no you feel physically sick you feel like nauseated even just having this conversation would be very difficult for the first few weeks because you feel so out of breath just doing everyday activities like just having a shower and getting dressed

I would feel like dizzy and need to sit down. So it is something quite intense that your body is going through. But despite all of that, the next day on the 1st of April, Lisanne and Chris decided to embark on the El Pianista Trail, which is described on alltrails.com as a nature trail ideal for anyone wanting to immerse themselves in a truly magical jungle world. Alltrails.com is a website that I use semi-regularly. And look, they do great work. Not here to shit on them.

But I find their trails somewhat confusing quite a lot of the time. But I like that they're going to the detail of explaining this as a nature trail into a truly magical jungle world. But if I just want to find some hikes around fucking Lake District, it seems like the hardest thing in the world to do. So the website says it's magic, but it also warns that this trail can get very muddy and rocky, and it can at times be fairly challenging.

I feel like they ask cover a lot on alltrails.com. I'll find a trail somewhere else on another website, and it'll be like, it's fine to do. And then you look it up on alltrails.com and it's like no challenging only for experienced hikers and I'm like is it just so if I die on it I can't sue you. El Pianista isn't as well travelled a route as other hikes in the area and several websites mention that it's in an area where there are jaguars and mountain lions quite a lot. Just last year, in June 2023, a jaguar killed a middle-aged lone hiker in the middle of the day in that very area.

The trail begins down a fairly rural and remote road about 15 minutes outside of Boquete. And although there's no official start to the hike, most people use the El Pianista restaurant as a marker point. Locals have also reported that they warned Chris and Lisanne not to go on the trail alone. But the girls brushed these warnings off and went on anyway. Again, just classic early 20s traveller business. I don't want this to sound like I'm making generalisations about Dutch people. But... They're so tall when i was in south africa the thing about table mountain is that it is high so phone reception bad so i decided i was gonna go up there it was 35 degrees i had no hat i'd started way too late and i had shit shoes on why and i was on my own.

But because my mum had done table mountain the year before, I was like, if my mum can do it, I can do it. But my mum obviously started off at like two o'clock in the morning. Anyway, so I'm like walking up there and I'm like, I have a bad feeling about this. Like, I think I'm going to turn back and get the cable car up, which is what I ended up doing. So I turned around and I was like, this is dumb'm not doing this and I walked back down and then there was this flock of Dutch girls I could see their skin burning already like they're wearing sports bras and shorts I think one of them had a hat anyway I was like and they stopped me they were like how long did it take you to get to the top because it was like quite late in the afternoon and they closed the mountain at

a certain time and I was like oh no I'm I didn't get there i'm i'm turning around and they were like okay and just kept on going up and then i took the cable car up i did not see them at the top so maybe they're still there oh my god oh my god i would describe myself as a seasoned hiker as that i am fucking horrified i'm absolutely horrified in this case they should have gone on alltrails.com. That is terrifying. Yeah, yeah. And I was like, you are mental. And they were like very, very young, obviously.

Yeah, yeah. But I was like, good fucking luck. I'm going to go and sit in my air-conditioned car. Yeah, I think that is pretty much part and parcel of the traveller experience for some people. And Lisanne and Chris were definitely going down that road. And a taxi driver would later claim to have dropped them off at the Alpianesta restaurant at around 1.30pm that day. However, timestamps from their later recovered digital cameras would suggest that they began their hike at around 11am.

The trail is meant to take around four to five hours to complete, which I personally wouldn't regard as a short hike, but that's what the girls had packed for. Also, if we look at what they were wearing, they were both wearing short shorts, tank tops, and had packed a light backpack with their passports, phones, water bottles, a digital camera, and a small amount of cash in. And although they were both adamant that they didn't need a guide, they accepted the restaurant owner's offers of taking their dog, Azul, along with them. But when little Azul returned to the restaurant later that day, tail wagging but very much alone, the owners were a little bit worried.

However, they didn't have any idea how bad the situation really was. But how could they have? It wouldn't be until the following morning that people became genuinely concerned for Lisanne and Chris's well-being. They had booked a walking tour of the national park near Boquete with a local guide called Feliciano Gonzalez. And when the girls failed to turn up, Feliciano went to look for them at their homestay. It's also reported that Feliciano had spoken to the girls in person just 24 hours before they disappeared. Put a pin in that because it comes back later. When their host, Miriam Guerra, was aware that the two of them had gone on the El Pianista Trail the day before, realised the girls weren't in their rooms,

she contacted the authorities. Sinaproc is the name of Panama's FEMA-like National Service for Civil Protection. But to Miriam's frustration, they seemed reluctant to help and barely took her concerns seriously. Given that Miriam and Chris were two travellers in their early 20s, Sinaproc basically said that they were probably just out partying or something. It wouldn't be until four days later that the authorities decided to conduct an aerial search of the trail, and one on foot with the help of locals. Thankfully, experienced local guides knew that the first 24 hours were vital in finding missing people, and so they banded together a group of volunteers on their own. The trouble, however, was that Chris and Lisanne hadn't told anybody exactly where they were going. They probably didn't know, since they didn't have a guide and they're not from the area.

So it was tough to narrow down the search efforts to one area in particular. The volunteer search party spent the first few days scouring the still active Baru volcano, which was the most popular hiking attraction in that area. John Tromblom, one of the guides helping with the search, later told the Daily Beast that if the two women had just left a note or sent a single text about where they were going, it could have all turned out very differently. But again, it's just not something you think about. I think it's a combination of that age where you feel very indestructible. And you're very, very high risk prone if you have a certain personality type. And yeah, I just don't think you think anything of it.

I remember having, so San Jose is in a valley, right? And there are active volcanoes surrounding it, which is why it's a lot cooler than, it has its own microclimate, basically. Anyway, one of the biggest mountains surrounding San Jose, which is the one that everyone talks about climbing, is called Pico Blanco. And Luis, my taxi driver friend, he was like, no, people die up there. Like, you really should be really careful about approaching that. And I remember being like, eh, shut up, Luis. Like, but people die.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, my God, when we did Annapurna Base Camp, we were like, I haven't got any money to pay for a guide. And I also feel very conflicted about the whole Sherpa situation. So I'm going to get myself up there. We didn't have a map. We didn't have a guide. We did it all and we didn't die.

But there was a lot of missing persons posters on the route up and down. And there's a fucking memorial to all of the people that have died on the day you're about to reach base camp. But again, it felt totally fine. It felt like, ah, I'll be fine though yeah the arrogance of youth and again i'm not trying to say this to blame chris and lasanne on any other occasion in any other situation they would have been totally fine something happened on this trip that ended tragically we don't know what it is we're obviously going to talk about potential theories but i'm not trying to blame them for what happened to them.

It's a tragedy. And if somebody else was involved, obviously it's not their fault. Meanwhile, back in the Netherlands, the Kremers and the Froons didn't have a clue that their daughters were missing in the Panamanian rainforest. But they did know that something was wrong because neither family had received a message from either Lisanne or Chris since the 1st of April, despite having daily contact up until then. Chris and Lisanne had shared even the minutest details about their daily activities, and when they still hadn't managed to make contact with their families by the 6th of April, their parents got on a plane along with Dutch detectives and headed for Buketi. And this is when SINAPROC finally decided to get involved and together with canine units and helicopters they searched the forest for 10 days straight and according to John Twanblom, the guy that we mentioned earlier, the rescue operation was

a total clusterfuck. SINAPROC failed to find even a single clue as to what happened to the women and after 10 days they all but gave up. The Dutch authorities then brought in their own canine units and started a new search in the latter part of May but heavy rainfall stopped them from getting very far. It was not looking good. Desperate for answers the women's families advertised a $30,000 reward for any new information on Lisanne or Chris's whereabouts now this of course as we always see in cases like this was well-intentioned but ended up backfiring in a major way many people in Boqueta earn around $10 a day so $30,000 was a, life-changing amount of money in most of that area. And basically all it did was entice people to inundate the authorities with false tips and evidence in the

hopes that something they said might lead to them getting the money. Ten weeks then passed with no new leads on the investigation. The Dutch authorities began to wonder whether some of the locals, who knew the forest like the back of their hands, knew something, but were just too afraid to come forward with information. All hope seemed to be well and truly lost in finding Lisanne and Chris. But then, on Wednesday the 11th of June,

a local Ngobay woman came forward with Lisanne's blue lycra backpack. The Ngobay people are an indigenous population of around 260,000 across Panama, Costa Rica and Central America. The thing I always say about Costa Rica is that it's a country that kind of feels like it doesn't have much of a culture because the Spanish killed them all. So like the indigenous population of Costa Rica is tiny. And like there's these big stone spheres all over the country. Nobody knows why they're there because everyone's dead. And you can tell the difference between a Spanish, quote unquote, Costa Rican and an indigenous one on the bus.

Like they look so different. So 260,000 may sound like a big number, but when you put it into context, it's very, very small. So this woman claimed that she'd found the bag in a rice paddy on the bank of the river Calibra, which means serpent. And she said that it was near the remote village of Alta Romera, which sounds like a shit new car. But it's not. It is a place. And Alta Romera is about 17 kilometres from the homestay that the women had been staying in, and about 14 hours away by foot from where Chris and Lisanne had last been seen. It's not a place that one would accidentally stumble upon.

Reaching the village would require having to travel through a fairly dense, snake-infested rainforest. And what's more, the woman was adamant that the bag had not been there before, which is weird because the investigation had been going on for 10 weeks. But it gets weirder still because the bag itself was a cheap one. It wasn't waterproof or reinforced in any way, but its contents were in pretty good condition. The bag didn't even remotely look as though it had been in the humid Panamanian jungle for 10 weeks floating along a powerful river for multiple kilometres surrounded by snakes. Investigators by this point knew, of course, it was an almost certainty that Chris and Lisanne weren't going to be alive by this point. But the bag and its contents were

the first and only lead that they had got in two months, and it might in some way shine a light on what fate had befallen the women. The bag contained Lisanne's passport, her insurance card, two bras, two pairs of sunglasses, an empty water bottle, her Samsung Galaxy, and Chris's iPhone 4. There was also $83 inside and Lisanne's digital camera. Forensic analysis revealed 34 different fingerprints found on these items, along with two unknown DNA samples, one of which was male. Unfortunately, none of these prints were a match for the ones that Panamanian authorities had on record.

But the data from the women's waterlogged phones, however, did provide an invaluable insight into what had happened. Harvard is the oldest and richest university in America. But when a social media-fueled fight over Harvard and its new president broke out last fall, that was no protection. Claudian Gay is now gone. We've exposed the DEI regime, and there's much more to come. This is The Harvard Plan, a special series from the Boston Globe and WNYC's On the Media. To listen, subscribe to On the Media wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Jake Warren, and in our first season of Finding, I set out on a very personal quest

to find the woman who saved my mum's life. You can listen to Finding Natasha right now, exclusively on Wondery+. In season two, I found myself caught up in a new journey to help someone I've never even met. But a couple of years ago, I came across a social media post by a person named Loti. It read in part,

Three years ago today that I attempted to jump off this bridge, but this wasn't my time to go. A gentleman named Andy saved my life. I still haven't found him. This is a story that I came across purely by chance, but it instantly moved me. And it's taken me to a place where I've had to consider

some deeper issues around mental health. This is season two of Finding, and this time, if all goes to plan, we'll be finding Andy. You can listen to Finding Andy and Finding Natasha exclusively and ad-free on Wondery+. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify. When their phones were analysed, investigators learned that six hours into their hike, which should have taken them maximum five, remember, the women had attempted to call 112,

the European emergency number. The first call was made at 4.49pm on Chris's iPhone 4, and the second attempt was made from Lisanne's Samsung at 4.49pm on Chris's iPhone 4. And the second attempt was made from Lisanne's Samsung at 4.51pm. Oh, I hate that. I hate that. Like this is immediately such a level of insight into what we know is happening. Like you say, it should have taken three hours, the round trip should have taken about five. So the fact that six hours in they're both frantically trying to call an emergency number. It's just, it's just scary now i think back on some of the trips i've taken i am like what the fuck were you thinking what the actual fuck were you thinking because it just takes one thing to go wrong oh my god and i do not know how

i am not dead i made such stupid decisions and, if I ever have a child and they want to go do a trip like I did, I obviously want them to because it was an incredible experience and it gives you so many skills in so many ways. But I would be like, please, for the love of God, don't be as stupid as I was. Even one thing, like they're trying to call the European emergency number. As I moved from country to country, I did not know what the emergency number was in the country that I was. Even one thing, like they're trying to call the European emergency number. As I move from country to country, I did not know what the emergency number was in the country that I was in. But it's just not something that occurs to you because as a 20 year old, you are not that

conscientious. I also think the thing that always catches me out still is phone reception, because we're so used to having it constantly. But then you go to places like this, and they're too high, and you don't have coverage. I have been caught out by that many a time i don't even want to tell you all the stupid things i did let's just leave it at that because i might get arrested so neither of the calls connected but this record does tell us that both of them were likely still alive at this point. But something had happened to worry them enough to call an emergency number. Both phones were then turned off for a total of 14 hours until they tried calling again on Wednesday the 2nd of April. Attempts were made at 6.58am, 8.14am, 10.53.m using both phones alternately records show that they both only had 50 battery

life when they began on the pianista trail i can't i can't it's just so horrifying i think the reason both of us probably feel quite affected by this particular case is because there but by the grace of god go i like this could have been me and it is absolutely terrifying i hate this i hate this like analysis because obviously we're going to get into what could have been going on but something was going on clearly their phones are so low that they're like we need to try turn it off and maybe wait until we get better reception. And then they try again and again and again. Oh my God, I can't. But I must because we've got still half a script to get through. Now the last call attempt by Lisanne and Chris was made on the 3rd of April at around 9.30am. And after that, the women made a signal check each day at the same times at

around 10am and 1.40pm. Then at some point between the 7th of April and the 10th of April, Chris's iPhone was turned off and wasn't turned on again until the 11th of April. This also means, tragically, that when authorities started their search of the forest on the 6th of April, at least one of the girls was still alive. But they start that search five days after they went missing. If they had started it on the day they went missing, or at least the next day, both of them could still have been alive. Now, Chris's iPhone remained on for one hour until it died on the 11th of April 2014.

And it's important to mention at this point that between the 7th of april and the 10th before chris's iphone was turned off for a few days there were multiple incorrect pin entry attempts into her phone which i i Yeah, me too. Now, the official 150-page report from the NFI, which is the National Forensic Institute, stated that Chris's iPhone required two passcodes to be used, one for the phone and one for the SIM. These pins were both activated correctly from the 1st of April to the 5th of April, so that's the day they go missing until five days later. But then, from 1.37m on the 5th of april onwards and bear in mind her phone was on again off again until the 11th so six days later for

those six days the pins were never correctly entered again so it is possible that at this point chris was either unconscious or possibly already dead and maybe Lisanne was still alive and just didn't know her passcode and kept entering it incorrectly. But it's also possible of course that these incorrect pin entries were done by an unknown third party. Unfortunately because neither of the phones made a successful connection it was not possible to track them by GPS. Now we've got Lisanne's digital camera, which was found with over half of the battery life remaining. There were two sets of photos discovered on the memory card. Most of the first set contained

perfectly normal tourist photos of the pair of them along the trail. In these pictures, Chris and Lisanne look perfectly happy, posing by trees, smiling, and clearly enjoying themselves. The timestamps of the first set show that Lisanne and Chris actually reached the summit in pretty good time. The last few photos, however, appear to show the women continuing onward past the summit of the Pianista Trail, which you're not supposed to do. No, no, no, no. Because those trails are only really used by indigenous people who live deep within the rainforest and they headed away from Boquete. Whether this decision to continue was by accident or whether they were forced to go on the trail is unknown. Now many people think that the two women look a bit worried and less happy in the last few photos in that first set, maybe as though they were lost or something. Now it was either that

or there was an unwanted person or persons with them at this point. And the last photo from this set is of Chris walking across a stream looking back at the camera with an undeniably worried look on her face. The call log from her iPhone shows that she made her first attempt to reach emergency services that very night. I don't think it's reading too much into it to look at the pictures and see that there is a shift in the demeanor of the women and that that night is the first night they start trying to call for help. But before we read too much into all of this it's also vital to remember however that the majority of the photos that were on that camera have never been published we only have access to maybe less than half of what was on that memory card again it's kind of

similar to like bridge guy case where there was a lot longer of that video that was shot by Libby that we've just never seen. So we're only able to analyze the information that we have access to. Now let's talk about the second set of photos because these are incredibly troubling. All of these photos were taken at night and there are about 90 of them and they were all taken on the 8th of April. So that is seven days after the girls went missing. They were all taken between 1am and 4am using the camera's flash in total darkness. Which if that is not enough to send chills up your spine, let me continue, because there are many strange things about these photos. Now, we've read in several places online that investigators found that photo number 509

was deleted from the memory card in a way only possible using a computer. So somebody would have had to plug the camera into a computer, look at all the files on there and then delete it. They couldn't have just deleted it on the camera itself and one photo also appears to show the back of chris kremer's head where it looks like you can make out a wound and many people online believe that she is already dead in this photo i remember when we were doing when we did the red herring on this we were talking about how because it's so many pictures with the flash were they trying to see yeah and it's like did they realize we don't want to waste our battery on our phones we're lost in the pitch black we need to conserve phone energy should we just use

the flash on the camera i don't know none of it makes much sense did they think maybe they were calling for help if i was lost in the jungle and I heard some noise nearby, maybe a smart thing to do is to start flashing the camera in the hopes that somebody sees the light. We don't know. Another picture seems to show a large rock with tissues and sweet wrappers on it. Could Lisanne have been attempting to mark the location of Chris's dead body with these items and photos?

Stranger things have happened. In one of the clearer photos, taken later on, a cable bridge only used by Indigenous people can be seen in the background leading across a ravine. Oh my God, they're just so in the middle of nowhere where they shouldn't fucking be. Another photo shows two arrows that Lisanne had made using sticks on the floor,

one pointing towards the bridge and another pointing downstream. No, it just makes you think that they're like Blair Witch Lost, like they're going round and round in circles and she's finding some way, maybe with the sweet wrappers, with the arrows, to try and tell herself. Or she's trying to tell people, this is the way I went. Or she's trying to be like, we keep ending up in the same place.

Oh my God, I don't know. But it's horrific. It's possible that Chris slipped off the bridge and was swept away by the powerful river beneath. And maybe that's what she was trying to explain with the arrows. Maybe. During the search for Chris and Lisanne, bone fragments of three unknown indigenous people were found along the river. So maybe people have fallen from that bridge before. Almost definitely. The discovery of the backpack gave the investigators a new search area. Over the following weeks, the Ngobi people and guides, including Feliciano Gonzalez, helped the police discover 33 bone fragments along the Culebra River. And this included Lisanne's femur, her hiking boot with her foot still inside it, Chris's pelvic bone and one of her ribs. So, yeah, it takes them weeks before they find these remains, because when they find the backpack, it's already weeks.

They know there is very slim chance that the women are still alive, but maybe there is some hope. This is the point that all hope is gone because they found their remains. Later on an indigenous person found Chris's shorts apparently neatly folded on a rock further upstream from where the backpack was found. Well that's what was reported for a while. It's actually not true. The shorts were just floating around. Forensic examiners noticed that Chris's pelvic bone was extremely clean. Too clean. There were also phosphates found in all the bones belonging to Chris. These phosphates were not naturally found in any of the surrounding soil. They were phosphates which would be present if somebody had cleaned the bones with lime or lye. Lye is also how some Latin American drug cartels

are known to clean bodies. Other experts have argued, however, that this apparent bleaching could well have been caused by sustained exposure to sunlight. So, again, it's very hard to know exactly what happened. But something else which makes people suspect foul play is that Lisanne's bones were in

an earlier stage of decomposition than Chris's. So that means that she died after Chris. And this is despite both of them having been dead for around five months by this point. A forensic investigator suggested that Lisanne's bones had been stored in a cool, dry place, and it was likely that she died much later than Chris. But we have read other experts online saying that rainforest habitats are made of many micro-environments, so even if the women's bodies had lain maybe a few metres apart, they could have been exposed to very different surroundings. As such, decomposition can appear rapidly in some and much slower in others, depending on several factors like scavengers, river currents or

surrounding flora. The investigator also observed that the cut of the bone on Lisanne's severed foot was considerably clean and there was no blood on it. And apparently, Lisanne's bones didn't even have visible marks of bites or clawing or hacking, even under a microscope. But we do have to bear in mind that the vast majority of both skeletons, including the skulls of the two women, were never recovered. And then on August 29th, 2014, the next discovery was made. And it's gross. A ball of skin from Chris's shinbone was found in the same area along the Calibra River in a very early stage of decomposition.

For many, this was more compelling evidence that the body parts had been stored somewhere cool and dry before being left in the forest. But to this day, no cause of death has ever been confirmed for either of them. The official conclusion by the Panamanian authorities, however, was that Lisanne and Chris were swept away by a swollen river and that they have drowned. But they were alive for so many days calling for help. I mean, maybe they were swept away and they end up somewhere else. But then it's like, they couldn't have drowned because that would have been a very sudden and violent end.

But they seem to have been in trouble for a long time because they were calling for help repeatedly. You can't be being swept down a river with your phone above your head, trying again and again, turning it off for a few days. Like how many days were they swept along this river for? I feel like that is a very strange thing to say. Why not at least say they were just lost and they died of exposure? They died because they didn't have enough stuff with them.

And maybe their bodies got swept away in the river. It's a weird thing to come to the conclusion that they drowned when that doesn't fit the evidence we have at all. And also, talking about a swollen river, in actuality, Panama had been experiencing quite a large drought in the months preceding April. Would the river even have been flowing fast enough to have smashed up their bones that badly? Now, the Dutch investigators, however, have stated that although it's, of course, impossible to say that foul play didn't occur, they actually do lean more towards the accident scenario. For one, if the girls had been kidnapped, why was there no ransom demanded? And it's a relevant question. But it doesn't take into

account the idea that whoever kidnapped the women did so for sadistic reasons, not monetary ones. I think the classic thing here is like, yeah, of course, you've got these two white girls lost in the jungle. If somebody's going to kidnap them they're doing it for money but they could have just been your run-of-the-mill fucking psycho sadist like it doesn't mean that that's the reason it happened and a lot of people disagree with the accident theory for one if the girls had slipped into the river why weren't any more of their bones discovered and also the buquete locals who believe that the girls were murdered all seem to point their fingers towards none other than Feliciano Gonzalez. Now we have to be fair

though there isn't any solid evidence at all against this man but the circumstantial evidence which keeps popping up has made a lot of people very suspicious. Again, just to be clear, he's not been arrested, he's not been convicted of this, it's just a theory that people have put out there. So the key things that make people think that Feliciano was involved are the following. For one, he was one of the last people to see or speak to the women. Feliciano also led the search party during which the police found 33 bones. And according to local guide Thornblom, who we've met quite a few times already in this episode,

he's spoken with a number of female tourists who have made complaints about Feliciano, saying that he harassed them. Apparently he'd do things like bathe in the hot springs with female tourists, which is not what you should be doing as a guide. But because the investigation concluded that no crime had taken place, Feliciano was never interrogated. I just don't know how they came to the conclusion that no crime had taken place.

Mm-hmm. What's more, Feliciano has a son who lives in Alto Romero, the remote village where Lisanne's backpack was discovered. But the police never investigated him. I don't love the Feliciano theory. Like, I don't think it has enough, really. No, I don't think it has enough. But it doesn't have enough because they didn't investigate it also. True, true, true, true. Like, I just find it shocking that everybody's just like,

oh, it must have been an accident. I'm like, how have you come to that conclusion? From what we know, based on the girls' call reports and two sets of photographs, we can split their hike into two parts. The first, where they're happy and enjoying themselves on the El Pianista Trail, and the second, where they go off-trail and are definitely lost.

It is completely plausible that going off-trail and getting lost was a total accident on their part, but that doesn't mean that they couldn't have bumped into somebody with nefarious intentions later on. The only argument against this idea, however, is that no kidnapper would allow their victims to hold onto and use their mobile phones and cameras after they've been abducted. We also know that the girls didn't pack any food and only had one water bottle each and that at least one of them survived for 11 days. They would have been starving,

dehydrated, lost and freezing cold because remember they were wearing tiny shorts and a tank top each on this hike. It's entirely possible that they resorted to drinking the river water, which could have messed them up in all sorts of ways, like giving them fucking dysentery, which only would have made them more dehydrated. And just in case you don't know what dysentery is, let me horrify you. It's an infection of the intestines, which causes diarrhea containing blood or mucus,

along with severe stomach cramps, sickness, and an incredibly high temperature. As we said, the Dutch investigators lean more towards the accident theory, and so do the Panamanian authorities. But I have to say, there is just as much evidence in support of the foul play theory as there is of the accident theory, which is that there's not much either way. But I don't think they had enough, from what we can see, to shut the door on one versus the other. They could have at least left it inconclusive. Today, if you reach the summit of the El Pianista Trail,

you'll be met with a rusty metal sign that reads, End of trail. Do not pass. Which should make it pretty obvious that you should follow the well-maintained trail back down to Buketi. Back in 2014, however, when Chris and Lisanne were on the trail, there was no such sign. And you can see that maybe they got there and just didn't realise they were there and carried on, which is, oh my god, that's so horrifying but even still the tiny mud-choked paths that the women would have entered to go past the summit are very obviously not meant for tourists they're rugged trails and they look dangerous because they are chris and lisan weren't exactly serious explorers

who wouldn't have been phased by these trails maybe but then also we've been talking through the whole thing the arrogance of youth like i can see myself doing something like that when i was 21 yeah they just wanted to go on a nice hike learn spanish and do some volunteering and that's a big reason why so many people believe in the foul play theory a lot of people think that they were just too smart to have decided not to turn around and go back the way they came yeah it's it's surprising because the trails look very, very rough and dangerous. And it's like you said, you know, with the mountain, why at that point did they not realise, let's just go back?

Because it also would have started to get dark. They didn't set off till one o'clock because, you know, the photos show that they made it to the top in good time. And they said it was something like three, three and a half hours to get to the top. By that point, you're getting on for four almost five why didn't they turn back when the trail started to get so rough was there somebody stopping them or something maybe one of them was injured i just don't know and there actually have been a number of reports of people having been robbed on the alpianista trail so maybe they were forced.

Enrique Orocha who represented the cremers in the investigation is adamant that the girls were kidnapped. Enrique told the Daily Beast that he'd ventured into those tiny trails himself to see what they were like and he said there was mud up to his knees. He went on to say that the trail is like a river almost impossible to walk through, and that there was no way that Lisanne and Chris would have gone that way voluntarily. Though also, if we're saying that there was a drought at the time, maybe the trails weren't as bad when they were walking there. But still, I think the key thing we hear repeatedly from everybody who's done the trails is that there is a clear difference between the trails leading up

to Alpianesta and then afterwards when you're heading into the jungle. I don't know. Now once you pass the end of trail sign, the trails apparently get so steep that in some places you have to get on all fours and crawl backwards. Some of them are even too steep for mules. And as the trail crosses from the state of Chirikai to the province of Bocas del Toro you have to cross some very steep gorges

and then you have to cross some incredibly deep ravines using the janky cable bridges and this is why the canine teams that even the Dutch investigators had brought in weren't able to search those areas. The only people other than the indigenous people who venture that way are extreme hikers who go with a ton of equipment

and probably a paid guide and probably a satellite phone. Another argument people make for foul play is the fact that Lisanne and Chris, who had been in contact with their families every day, didn't leave a goodbye message. Especially because they have a camera that was still working and phones and as horrific as that sounds especially if one of them died first like Chris dies first Lisanne is on her own I cannot imagine that even in a moment of sheer breaking point that she wouldn't have made some video or written some note on her phone saying goodbye to her parents and explaining what happened saying we went the wrong way. Chris got injured. She died. She's buried here.

I'm running out of time. If nobody ever hears from me, this is what happened. That does seem weird. But maybe they were, maybe she was sick. Maybe she had dysentery. I don't know. But then again, maybe the nighttime photos were them trying to leave a message. So why were the Panamanian authorities quite so horribly shit with their investigation?

Why, I don't know, but they gave up on their search after just 10 days. And when the backpack turned up 10 weeks later, they found over 30 fingerprints on it. But they didn't look at them at all. And that was the decision of Panamanian Attorney General, someone called Betseda Pitti, who had been adamant since day one that there was absolutely no foul play. Surprise, surprise. Please keep coming to our country. Betseda Pitti, who had been adamant since day one that there was absolutely no foul play. Surprise, surprise. Please keep coming to our country.

No one is murdering you. Yeah. I mean, I think that's the thing, isn't it? It's like when somebody's actions don't make sense, look at the consequences of their actions. And here it's like, why are you saying that there's no foul play? Oh, shock is because you don't want Panama to be the fucking murder capital of tourists in Latin America. So you immediately know there's an agenda for why they closed this. So we'll never really know what happened. Now, Chris and Lisanne's disappearance had garnered vast international media attention at the time.

And for sure that had an effect on many people's decisions to travel to Panama. With the tourism industry making up around 15% of the country's GDP and with big elections approaching it would definitely have incentivized Pitti to close this case ASAP. Especially if the Panamanian authorities had discovered that the women had indeed been victims of some kind of sexual crime. And this is what many seem to believe, even going as far as to speculate whether the women's remains and belongings were planted in the river to make it look like an accident. Pitti has, of course, called such insinuations irresponsible and without foundation, though I really wouldn't particularly be surprised if that was the case.

Now another thing that has made a lot of people suspect foul play is the death of a man called Osman Valenzuela because just four days after Chris and Lisanne disappeared Osman was found dead having drowned in the Chiricuicito River. When his phone was recovered police found two blurry photos of Osman and a friend swimming in the nearby Caldera hot springs. And guess what? They weren't alone. Because also in the photos were two white women, one with red hair and one with brownish blonde hair. It's not clear you can't see their faces, but these photos were taken on the 1st of April, the day that Chris and Lisanne went on their walk.

Haunting. Oh my god. It's never been confirmed who the women are in Osman's photo but the other man in the swimming photo is believed to be Osman's friend, Jose Murgas, who died a year later in a hit and run. Obviously this is the furthest thing from solid evidence. There's no tying Osman to Chris and Lisanne, so we almost didn't include it. But we have included it because a scenario where Chris and Lisanne were confronted with unwanted male

attention seems plausible, especially when you consider that they were close to well-known drug routes and easily could have bumped into some very bad people. But that doesn't explain the clothing problem. There were two extra bras found in Lisanne's backpack. Who would have packed that for a hike, which was meant to take five hours? And if they hadn't packed it, it would mean that these were bras that they were wearing the day they went missing. Why would they remove them?

And why would Chris's shorts be found in a totally separate location? Can you explain the bra thing? Because they don't even pack food. But she's got two bras in that backpack. I think I can. I'm a very lazy packer. So it would not be, especially if you're on like a six week trip. You've got loads of stuff. Like maybe she just didn't take them out yeah you know it could absolutely be something or nothing you're

right so we don't know we don't know there's lots of things we don't know because this case wasn't properly investigated and also a lot of stuff that the authorities have they have not released to the public but we have come up with three plausible reasons that the girls would have tried to contact the emergency services just a few hours after getting lost and before dark. The first being an injury, like a sprained ankle or possibly a snake bite. But then again, why would they leave the trail if that was the case? Why would you get off the main trail into muddy paths if there was some

sort of injury? Or maybe they go off the trail and then that's when it happens. That's also possible. The second scenario is that they were concerned that they weren't going to make it home before nightfall. This is entirely plausible again. But as we've said, we know that they made it to the summit quickly. So why did they think they couldn't make it home? Again, it only makes sense if they'd walked off the trail and realized that they'd gone too far. But even if they hadn't, the question remains, why would they have left the trail? The only answer there really is that they didn't know. The third scenario is that they ran into some very bad people. But if that's true, why the women were able to use

their phones and cameras so much over the following days that they were missing doesn't really make sense. Also, they took so many pictures, why isn't there a photo of their would-be attacker? But then again, we also know the photo 509 was deleted from a computer. But then if you're saying that the kidnapper takes their camera plugs it into a computer to delete the one picture there is of him on there but then just dumps the camera with pictures of the women including one possible picture where one of them is injured and why did they have their phones it makes no sense also come on can we be serious they go missing on the first the phones at least at least Chris's phone, is still being used until the 11th.

Yes, for the last five days, somebody's entering the wrong pin again and again. It could easily have been Lassan. Chris could have died five days into them having been disappeared. And Lassan somehow survives another five. But how does an iPhone 4 survive 10 days when on day one it was already at 50%, which again makes some people think that they were charging their phone somewhere. But why would an abductor let you charge your phone?

I don't know. This case just goes round and round in circles. And it's not an isolated one. Just three years after Luzanne and Chris's disappearance, a German lady who'd been hiking in Panama disappeared too. She had been missing for several days before the owner of the hostel where she was staying noticed that she wasn't there and contacted the authorities.

It turns out that she'd got lost during a hike to a popular waterfall in the region and she'd wandered the mountains for three days alone. No. Unfortunately for her, the people who found her were three men who, despite being part of the search party, sexually assaulted her. During the attack, the woman managed to grab one of the men's rum bottles, smash it and defend herself with it. She managed to wound one of the men before running away.

Now this woman was eventually found by search teams as she wandered the bands at the Maluba River and eventually her attackers were identified and arrested. Unfortunately, cases of women being assaulted and murdered are increasingly becoming commonplace in Panama. According to Doctors Without Borders there has been a seven-fold increase in sexual attacks against people crossing the Darien Gap since November 2023. Armed gangs have been acting with impunity in the lawless stretch of jungle between South and Central America.

And as a result, there was a victim of sexual violence there every three and a half hours in December 2023. Of course, we do have to acknowledge that Boquete, where Chris and Lisanne vanished, is on the opposite side of Panama to the Darien Gap, but it is still relevant. It doesn't take very long, looking into Buketti's history of violent crimes, to find a plethora of missing person cases. In fact, since 2014 alone, there have been around 25 unsolved missing persons cases

in that region. And the dangers in Panama don't end there, because apart from the treacherous jungles, dangerous criminals, jaguars and snakes, there are also satanic cults. Why not? Shuck it in. This time, the satanic panic is quite legitimate. In 2020, Panamanian authorities discovered a mass grave containing the bodies of a pregnant woman, her five children and a 17-year-old woman as well.

This is the case we covered. It is. This is the case we covered. So actually, we have done a full episode on the case that Hannah is about to give you a very brief rundown on. So if you want to go check it out, go back into the Red Handed Archives because there's a big fat case on it that we have already done. And it's horrific. It really is. The bodies were only found because locals alerted authorities that 15 people were being held against their will by a sect known as the New Light of God. And this group had murdered the seven people that had been found as a part of a violent satanic ritual.

And they had taken 15 members of the Nagabi indigenous group hostage because the group's preachers wanted to torture them into repenting their sins. Yeah, that's really, really bad stuff. I can't remember the number, but we will link the episode in the show notes to this particular case so you guys can find it easily. It's well worth a listen. But just to give you a little bit more information here, the investigation revealed that this group had been performing rituals and exorcisms inside of a makeshift church in a remote area about 250 kilometers from Panama City. The survivors, rescued by authorities, were found tied up with ropes and had suffered considerable injuries

having been beaten with bats, bibles and machetes. And inside the church, the police found a naked woman, machetes, knives and the remains of a goat that had been sacrificed. One of the sex members claimed that the rituals began after he'd had a vision in which, quote, God had given him a message. Of the 10 people who were eventually arrested on suspicions of murder, sexual abuse and deprivation, one of them was the grandfather of the murdered children themselves.

So yeah, bad stuff. Go listen to the episode. But there's more. Because in 2009, in a totally unrelated situation, 29-year-old Alex Humphries from Stockport here in England vanished while on holiday alone in Boquete, Panama. He was last seen hiking towards the Balnerio Magadua shore. And although there were extensive searches and press coverage, nobody has a clue what happened to Alex. And his parents have requested the government put out a travel warning for Panama after they heard Chris and Lisanne's bones had been found. In 2022 alone, the Panamanian public ministry received a total of 444 missing persons reports.

And we also have to stress that cases of gender-based violence have reached a crisis point. So it happens. It really is not implausible that they were kidnapped by someone. No, absolutely not. And like just the episode we did on Mexico, I know it's a different country, but there's no denying that Latin America

has a problem with gendered violence against women. So I think it's incredibly likely, incredibly plausible that Chris and Lisanne met their ends at somebody else's hands. The only thing that makes me think that's not the case is the fact that they had their phones on them the entire time. And we won't ever really know what happened to Lisanne Froon and Chris Kremers. But we can be certain that the Panamanian authorities conducted themselves poorly during their quote-unquote investigation. Their deaths will probably be a mystery forever.

Not everyone has given up hope, though. In 2023, two Dutch authors, Marja West and Jürgen Snorren, announced that they would be conducting a new search for Chris and Lysanne. And Jürgen and Marja have written a book on the disappearance called Lost in the Jungle. And they are convinced that the girls died in some sort of accident. So they've set out to find answers and the rest of Lisanne and Chris's bodies. And this was the first time that anybody from the Netherlands has set out to do so since 2015. And the reason why Marja and Juergen were so hopeful was because they planned on searching an area that hadn't previously been explored.

Basically, at the end of the river, where many of the women's remains were discovered, there is a dam. And just before the dam is a filter to trap boulders and branches and things like that. And possibly also bones. Now, as we said, though, this search was announced in 2023, so just last year, and so far there hasn't been any word on whether anything has been found. And in this case, no news is likely bad news. So all we can do is hold out hope for now that Chris and Lisanne's families will one day get some answers

as to what befell their beloved daughters. But for now, we just don't know. What do you think, Hannah, based on the very limited information and evidence that we have? Because we have a picture of a wound on the back of Chris's head, possibly, possibly yes i think she fell injured herself hindering lisan from going forward possibly so then she's helping her across a bridge she falls and then i think lisan goes on for days and possibly met with some bad people yeah i think the the thing that trips people up with this case is they assume the same thing happened to both of them and we have no evidence that that's true no i think the evidence points to the fact that chris dies first somehow and then lasanne is still alive for days later i really don't know i can find either either eventuality you know foul play or misadventure entirely possible the frustration with this case is that there was not a proper

investigation not even by the dutch police it seems who i don't know if they kowtow to some sort of you know bureaucratic i i have a diplomatic situation that the the relations between panama and and the netherlands are really good yeah but maybe maybe that's why they didn't want to make it worse. They didn't want to make it bad by going in and accusing people, particularly possibly accusing indigenous people as well, which could have been a very fiery shitstorm to possibly get into. So we don't know and we will possibly never know. But it is a terrifying story.

And just one of those ones of like how in a moment through a bad decision or a mistake yeah everything changes and all i can think is how fucking terrified particularly if they were just lost how terrified lisan must have been after chris died so that's it guys there's the 10 year anniversary we said. And let's see if this new investigation reveals anything. And if there is, we'll bring you an update. But that's it. Be careful. Adiosi.

Buona suerte. And all of that. And we'll see you next time for a different case. Goodbye. Bye. He was hip-hop's biggest mogul, the man who redefined fame, fortune, and the music industry. The first male rapper to be honored on the Hollywood Walk of Fame, Sean Diddy Combs.

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