RedHanded - Episode 382 - Ellen Greenberg Part 2: Weaponised Incompetence

Episode Date: January 16, 2025

Ellen Greenberg was murdered, or at the very least died under very suspicious circumstances. To us, and to almost everyone who has even so much as glanced at this case, that much is obvious. Yet as of this episode the state of Pennsylvania refuses to view the 27-year-olds death as anything but suicide.In our second of two parts on Ellen’s brutal murder we’re going to tell you how incompetent policing, shambolic coverups, and institutional corruption led to this case being put on ice. Despite clear signs that evidence was missed, misplaced, or downright removed.Exclusive bonus content:Wondery - Ad-free & ShortHandPatreon - Ad-free & Bonus EpisodesFollow us on social media:YouTubeTikTokInstagramXVisit our website:WebsiteSources available on redhandedpodcast.comSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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me wherever you get your podcast. I'm Saruti. I'm Hannah. And welcome to Red Handed, where it's part two of our series on the murder of Ellie Greenberg. Yes, absolutely. To both of those things. Can confirm it is part two and can confirm she did not kill herself. Thank you. Case closed. Thank you so much for listening guys. We'll see you next week while we're recovering another case. No, obviously, if your blood wasn't boiling after last week's episode, then I think the

next hour or so might just do the trick. And we're sorry to start everybody off in 2025? Is that yes, 2025? With such a rager. But needs must. Now as we mentioned last week, Ellie's autopsy was carried out on the 27th of January 2011 by Dr Marlon Osborne, a medical examiner in Philadelphia. Initially, Dr Osborne came to the conclusion that this was indeed a homicide. After all, he was presented with an otherwise fit and healthy young woman with at least 20 stab wounds, ranging from 1cm deep to over 10cm deep.

And for a few months after this, the Philadelphia Police Department worked the case as a homicide, although they had very little to go on since the apartment had been professionally cleaned and Ellie's laptops and phone had been in the possession of her fiance's uncle for two whole days. The pressure was mounting as the country demanded answers over the murder of a young, smart, ambitious, pretty, freckly first-grade teacher. But the police had nothing. And we say pretty, not because it's important that she was pretty.

It's because of the world we live in, people care more. She's, she's like the safest, the safest of people, right? As far as the world looking in, she's from a good family. She's engaged to a guy who's from a good family. Like she's been killed in her home and she is a fucking first grade teacher who's covered in freckles, like it's just too much, too much for the police to hide from. And the shock only intensified when Dr Osborne's final report came out in April 2011, so three months after that preliminary report, with the manner of death

now stated as suicide, just as the police had initially claimed. And they now tried to bolster this theory of suicide by pointing to Ellie's mental health at the time she died. It's no secret Ellie had been struggling in the lead up to her death. Her parents and friends had all noticed a change in her. She wasn't her bubbly self anymore, and she had started deferring to Sam on all sorts of decisions that she'd easily have made herself before. But Ellie was getting help.

She was seeing a psychiatrist, Dr Ellen Berman. And Dr Berman had diagnosed Ellie with Adjustment Disorder with Anxiety, a condition that can be connected with suicidal thoughts. Ellie was also on anti-anxiety medication and some people have pointed out that perhaps the meds had made her suicidal. Maybe. But her psychiatrist had noted that Ellie was, quote, not suicidal. And in the days before she died,

Dr. Berman had also written in her notes about Ellie, way better, 75% better. And look, obviously not everyone leaves a note when they kill themselves, but it is worth mentioning that no note was ever found. And people can be wrong, absolutely. There's actually quite a haunting phenomenon surrounding suicide that in the days leading up to the actual act, people can appear a lot happier.

And the reason for that is because they've realised how they can solve the problem. So loved ones quite often will say, but they seemed so much better. And that is sometimes the reason why. Not this time, but it does happen. It does absolutely happen. And I do want to point to a particular text that Ellie had sent her mother in the days before she died, because she had been trying various different medications. Dr. Berman had been trying various different things to try and help Ellie alleviate her

anxiety. And she was put on clonopin and she texted her mother saying, the clonopin worked. I feel so much better. Thank God! She was a person who was actively trying to ease her symptoms. It doesn't seem like she was a person looking for a way out. I know everyone's screaming about the internet searches, we're going to get to it. But facts are also these facts. Yeah, Klonopin's fucking great, man. I wish we had it in this country. Anyway, moving on. The point is more, I think.

Why is everyone so quick to jump to her mental health deteriorating, not being linked to an abusive relationship with Sam Goldberg? Yeah, everyone's like, she must have killed herself. Not everyone, the people who believe she killed herself are like, well, she was suicidal and that's why she killed herself. Nobody seems, people in that camp seem very reluctant to be like, she may have had poor mental health

because of an abusive relationship and he is the reason that she's dead because he killed her. Right, and it seems blatantly obvious, but I'm gonna say it anyway. Just because you're struggling with your mental health, that doesn't mean you are immune to someone murdering you. Yep. And Dr. Berman said that she'd asked Ellen about abuse, but apparently she had denied

any verbal or physical confrontations. But once again, doesn't mean it wasn't happening. It's a very shameful thing. It's not a shameful thing. People feel a lot of shame around it. And it's very difficult for people to admit what they are going through, what is happening to them. And we also know that the point at which a woman attempts to leave an abusive situation

is when she is most at risk. And that day, Ellie had started to pack up all of her makeup and she'd taken off her engagement ring. Ellie had also filled up her car with petrol that day and her parents suspected it was so she could leave and drive all the way to Harrisburg. Ellie had also texted a cousin of hers in the weeks before asking if she could go and stay with her for a bit. This cousin asked if Sam would be all the way to Harrisburg. Ellie had also texted a cousin of hers in the weeks before, asking if she could go and stay with her for a bit. This cousin asked if Sam would be joining as well, and Ellie didn't reply. Also, Ellie had been home for hours after she got sent home from work, but she was found wearing a snow boots, like she was leaving, go somewhere else.

leaving go somewhere else. So for all of those reasons we don't really think the anxiety suicide theory adds up. Yeah look in the words again of Dr. Wecht who we introduced you to last week he says rule number one is you rule out homicide, rule out homicide, rule out homicide and then you look for other potential reasons for why this person is dead. I thought you were going to say Sherlock Holmes. He basically says the same thing. Exactly. Or quote whoever you want for this. But yeah, that should have been the number one aim. And the police do not rule out homicide. They just rule in suicide. And yeah, it's very strange. And this is why, you know, at the end of last week's episode, I know a lot of people talk about the fruit theory, like why would she be making a fruit salad and then suddenly kill herself?

I don't necessarily know that that's the case. We don't know. We're going to talk about the timeline and all of the things we don't know. We don't know who was making the fucking fruit salad, right? But what we do know is that Ellie's wearing her snow boots, even though she's been in the house for hours by this point. Why? Where is she going?

She fills up her petrol, like she said, and her family and everyone who knows her says that Ellie was obsessively clean, obsessively tidy. All her stuff was like out on her bed, like she was packing things up. I don't think Ellie Greenberg, from what I've read about what her friends say about her, people who shared a room with her in uni, would have just had all her stuff out if she wasn't packing it up. Again, I know this is just very anecdotal but again it's another brick in that wall. This is the challenge with this case because so much of it is just, oh well this and this and this and one of the questions I keep coming back

to is who knows what other evidence that there could have been in this case if the police had handled the scene properly that night. For example, like you said Hannah last week, they didn't even use luminol, so we don't even know if someone tried to clean up the mess. Obviously if they had done that and there was smear patterns of somebody cleaning up, it's a murder. But we just don't know.

We don't even know the time of Ellie's death, because they didn't take her body temperature. It was just noted that there was a little rigor mortis in her hands and feet, which could place her death between two to four hours before she was pronounced dead at 6.40pm on the 27th of January 2011. So that still leaves, as far as I can see, two windows of possible death pre or post Sam Goldberg's gym trip. And we think that Sam killed Ellie before he went to the gym. Because we know that at

about 3.40pm Ellie had been texting with her friend Alicia Young. She was talking about work. Those were the last outgoing text messages recorded on Ellie's phone. Sam Goldberg's phone also went quiet at around the same time. So we're talking 3.40 to 5.30pm on the day that Ellie died. The records show absolutely no incoming or outgoing calls to Sam's phone. And then at 4.50pm, Sam was seen on CCTV getting out of the lift and walking toward the gym. And then he returns at about 5.15ish, but he doesn't break the door down nearly an hour. Why would that be?

The text has even asked him, why did you wait nearly an hour before you broke the door down? He was like, oh, I thought she might have been washing her hair or sat around with her headphones and doing some work. Like, I just thought like he's trying to extend that time period, right? So it doesn't seem like, Oh, you went to the gym, Ellie died, like Ellie died, you went to the gym, you came straight back, found her. It's like, it's too short a time. He wants to extend that timeframe for Ellie to have killed herself in that space of time that he is providing himself an alibi because the door is locked from the inside. So for our money, Sam Goldberg killed Ellie

in the hour between 3.40 and 4.50 and then he went to the gym. It's the only thing that makes sense to me, really. So let's talk about why. Why do we think this happened? Why did Sam Goldberg kill Ellie Greenberg? I personally think that he and Ellie were likely having some issues for quite a long time. As friends and family have said that Ellie had started to change. And there's also this narrative of his family being quite scrutinizing towards Ellie and that she had tried very hard to impress them. And there, you know, let's mention this because I know it's something that people will accuse us of ignoring if we don't talk about it. There is a lot of suspicion that Ellie had an eating disorder and that she was very obsessed

with being thin, with maintaining a weight. There were searches that even her parents admitted to that she was worried about the medication she was taking making her gain weight, all of these things. And yes, I also think that could be paired up with the obsessive cleaning. Even Dr. Berman says in her notes when Ellie's in her office, she's obsessively tidying things and neatening things up. I'm not saying Ellie Greenberg didn't have an eating disorder and that again, for some people leads to the suicidal ideation part of that. But I think that can also be triggered by somebody being in an abusive relationship. Yeah, and I don't know any woman who hasn't Googled that.

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Why does it happen now? From Dr. Berman's own notes, she was feeling better. She was feeling stronger. And I think she was ready to go. I think she packed up, or she was starting to pack up. And I think Sam Goldberg fucking lost it. I think he blitz attacked Ellie, smashing her over the head and stabbing her in the back and neck and I think it all happened so fast that she couldn't grab the knife

because one of the key reasons as we'll see that the police and the medical examiner's office say that they think this was a suicide is because the lack of cuts to Ellie's hands from trying to grab a knife. We talked about this in the Dali Ruti episode, typically when people are being stabbed, they are going to grab that knife. She doesn't, but I don't think that rules out the possibility that she was murdered. There's a massive fucking gash in her head. But I think the bruises to Ellie's body, which I absolutely think we have to count as defensive wounds, came from Sam Goldberg grabbing her, restraining her and, as Dr. Wett and Dr. Ross say, strangling her. Then, I think, the red mist lifts and Sam Goldberg looks at what he's done. He calmly goes to the gym and

comes back to start the act. But if you're still stuck on the internet searches, let's have a look at them. The police claim that they had discovered on Ellie's laptop and on her phone searches for suicide and fast, painless death. But what's interesting is that when the FBI took her laptops at the start of the investigation to assist the police, they made no note of those searches at all. In fact, they stated that the searches on Ellie's laptops and on her phone were unremarkable. Guy DeAndrea, the assistant DA we mentioned last week who took a look at this case again in 2015, also said in those original case notes there was no mention of these internet searches.

The police, their quite weak rebuttal to that is that they came across them later on. But Tom Brennan, when he heard this, was incredibly confused because he had had possession of Ellie's laptops for years. So how did the police find it later? Well, the police said that they had cloned the hard drives of Ellie's laptops while they were still in their custody and that's where they'd got the search results from. Which, in my opinion, is weird enough. But remember, before that, those laptops and Ellie's phone had been in Uncle Jimmy's custody for two whole days. Also, as Guidee Andrea, the assistant DA, points out, stabbing yourself 20 times

is a bizarre way to kill yourself if your aim was a fast, painless death. Yeah, there are loads of ways to do it, that isn't one. And even if you think it's too far-fetched to believe that somebody planted those suicide searches on her laptop and her phone, grow up, it's really not that hard to do. And also, these searches might not actually be what they seem. They're known as shadow searches, which is when you're reading an online article and then there are other articles that are hyperlinked throughout it and that are connected to the story. They're plugged in all over the place to keep you clicking through the site. And it looks as if Ellie was reading an article about

a model sex game death and she kept clicking onto other articles leading her through to other weird stories, and these show up as shadow searches. Yeah, like some of the most damning searches that people will point to in this case are shadow searches. So ones like you just explained. Like not all of them are, but a lot of them are. And sure, there is one website which explicitly was about suicide, but as most suicide websites are, it was about not killing yourself.

Either way, the laptops are a total waste of time, and so is her phone, because Uncle Jimmy had them for two days, he broke the chain of custody. So even if it had the most convincing evidence on it in the world, which they don't, it still would be null and void. Yep. And also people who point to the internet searches to say that this is why it's a suicide. The police had decided it was a suicide on the night itself, long before they discovered the internet searches. That wasn't a reason that played into their decision to it was a suicide on the night itself long before they discovered

the internet searches. That wasn't a reason that played into their decision to rule it a suicide on that night. Nobody checked her laptop or her phones that night. And this judgement of it being a suicide that was made on the night they found Ellie's body was made based on a few things, right? One, there was no immediate sign of an intruder. Two, Sam Goldberg stayed at the scene and was cooperative. 3. Ellie had, in their words, no defensive wounds.

And 4. Of course, the door having been latched from the inside. First off, Ellie absolutely did have defensive wounds. She had at least 11 bruises on her body, from her wrists, her thighs, abdomen and arms and they were all in various different states of healing. There were also the bruises to her neck, which we told you about last week, which could be consistent with manual strangulation. There is no explanation from what we could find for Ellie's bruises anywhere on any official record at all. And it also doesn't seem like the police made any attempt to determine how Ellie got them. They never even asked Sam Goldberg about them.

Dr Osborne puts them in his autopsy notes. He doesn't miss them. He puts them in his autopsy notes and just doesn't ask any questions about it. And nobody asks any questions about it. It's not that this is something that has been discovered later, it is in the autopsy notes just with zero questions. So with no other choice, in October that year the Greenbergs filed a civil suit against the Medical Examiner's Office and Dr Osborne. The Greenbergs wanted the courts to review the evidence that Tom Brennan had dug up and force the medical examiner's office to change the manner of death from suicide to homicide

or at the very least to an undetermined death. Because this was the key issue standing in the way of a true investigation as long as the verdict was suicide no law enforcement agency would look into Ellie's death. And yes of course I can hear some of you screaming. The courts cannot be allowed to force the ME's office to change a verdict. And look, I get it. I do. As the state said, they can't allow the ME's office to lose its independence. But in this case, it seemed very obvious that the loss of independence had already happened.

Because when supercop Tom Brennan started to try and work out why Osborne had changed his mind from homicide to suicide, he realised that this move had come following a clandestine meeting between members of the Philadelphia Police Department, the DA's office and the Medical Examiner's office. There are no notes as to what was said in this meeting, but we know that it was after this that Dr Osborne changed his verdict to match what the police had wanted all along. And I cannot stress to you how fucking unprecedented that is. The police and the prosecution categorically do not have the authority to dictate to the

coroner what the conclusion of an autopsy should be. As we said last week, the coroner will look at both the physical evidence of the body and the circumstances of the death. Tom Brennan knew that he needed to get to the bottom of what had gone on here. So, on the 13th of September 2013, Tom Brennan and Dr Wayne Ross had a call with Dr Osborne and his boss, then Philadelphia Chief Medical Examiner, Dr Samuel Galino. Dr Galino has since left that position after controversy over his office's handling of the remains of the Move bombing victims, an incident which we actually covered over on

Shorthand last year. But anyway, during this call, Dr. Ross challenged several of Dr. Osborne's findings and conclusions from the autopsy. Osborne pushed back, but it was all pretty cordial. Until... Tom asked Osborne why he changed the manner of death from homicide to suicide, to which Dr. Osborne responded. I changed it at the insistence of the police because they said there was a lack of defensive wounds.

Tom Brennan really could not believe what he was hearing, so he asked, since when did the police have anything to do with making a medical decision regarding the cause and manner of a death? Dr. Osborne did not respond to that question, and the call was very swiftly ended. The lawsuits had to go ahead because the Medical Examiner's office was clearly keeping quiet. He's really let the cat out of the bag there. I think Osborne says it and then he's like... When Tom asked that question he's like... Yeah, give me my cat back.

Yeah, it's too late. The cat's dead. I need to put it in a bag and go to St Ives. And so, with the lawsuit underway, the next time the Greenbergs team would question Osborne and Galino would be in April 2021, during their depositions for the lawsuit. Now a key part of these depositions was to cross-examine Dr Osborne's findings from Ellie's autopsy. When Dr Ross had examined the autopsy in detail, he was shocked. Osborne had noted, quote, the interior neck had no hemorrhage or injuries,

but there was an internal hemorrhage to Ellie's neck. I've seen pictures of it. When confronted with a picture that I have seen of the hemorrhage to the inside of Ellie's neck during this deposition, Dr. Osborne confirmed that, yes, that was indeed a hemorrhage, one that he had admitted from his report. And he also said that it would have been caused by blunt trauma of some sort. But he said that he didn't think it was down to strangulation because Ellie's

hyoid bone was still intact and there was no patica of her eyes. But there was patica of Ellie's eyes that Dr Osborne had also not noted down in his autopsy. And also, let's be clear, yes, the hyoid bone is in the neck and in many cases of strangulation, it does break, but it doesn't always break. Particularly, I can never remember, but once we knew how much pressure and how long you do have to exert on a person to strangle them to death. And it's a lot. But she's already dying. You know, so like, yes, we do often point to a high-oad bone being broken, Rodney Alcala being the one of the ones that's jumping to mind. But I think we can safely assume that strangulation is not the only thing that fucking killed her. She's running on empty. She's been stabbed a hundred million times.

And again, the fact is you're looking at patikia of the eyes, which there was, and a hemorrhage to Ellie's neck. On the inside, two signs of strangulation, but he says, I didn't write it down because the high-ode bone wasn't broken and there was no patikia, but there was patikia. I'm just stupid and didn't write that down. It is mind-boggling. particular I'm just stupid and didn't write that down. It is mind-boggling. So yeah, bad stuff and it only gets worse because we also discovered during this deposition that Dr Osborne had in fact been reprimanded multiple times prior to Ellie's autopsy for having had at least 18 cases in his past with serious errors and discrepancies and when Dr Galeno, his boss, was asked before this was discovered, have there ever been any concerns over Dr Osborne's work? And

he said, no, none. But he knew damn well that there had been multiple reprimands by other people. Help! And they were also asked about the previously undisclosed meeting. And they said that the police wanted to present additional evidence that they felt showed that the death of Ellie Greenberg was a suicide and not a homicide. Galino even said that he couldn't remember the names of the officers there present. But we know who they are. It was Sergeant Tim Cooney and Detective John McNamee.

And everyone in this case deserves to be named and shamed. If we can find them, we will say them. Smoke them if you got them." So, Galino was asked, what evidence did they share with you that was so compelling that your office changed its verdict? And he said, the two topics that I remember from that meeting were the absence of defensive cuts on Ellen Greenberg's hands or forearms, and the fact that the door was locked, or the lock was engaged from inside the apartment. Again, the lack of defensive cuts isn't true. They're talking about cuts on her hands, which is what you generally would see. However, if Ellie was Blitz attached, which we believe she was, it's entirely probable that she never

got a chance to fight back. And with regards to the door being locked. Well, Dr Osborne had always known that. And the fact that there was no proof that this was true. But apparently, during this secret meeting, the police had apparently told him that there was now a corroborating eye witness to the fact that the door had been latched from the inside. Philip Hanton.

We told you about Philip last week, he's obviously the security guard and the concierge at the building. And the pathologist claimed in this deposition that the police had told them during this secret meeting that the building security guard, Philip Hanton, had gone upstairs to Sam Goldberg's apartment with him that night. Because remember Sam says I went down to talk to Philip and asked him if he could break down the door for me. He said no. He said can I? And he came with me. And he went with him. That's the story. And the police told the medical examiners that Philip had seen the door was latched from the

inside and that he had been there when Sam broke down the door and found Ellie. This is a very, very hairy piece of evidence and I want to be crystal clear. I cannot confirm where this story originated from. In some reports, it says that Sam Goldberg told the police this, but it doesn't say that everywhere. In some reports it says that Sam Goldberg told the police this but it doesn't say that everywhere. In some places it says the police said it, in some places it says that Philip Panton said it. We cannot confirm whether Sam Goldberg did indeed tell the police this or not or whether the police just said this later to cover their arses because again this was never in the original

police report that was written because Guy D'rea, who has seen it, said that it wasn't. And I believe him. But I just want to be totally clear. It came up three months later, for the first time in this secret meeting. But whoever actually said this for the first time? Philip, the security guard himself, has said under oath in a deposition of his own that it's just not true. He didn't go up to the apartment with Sam Goldberg, he didn't see that the door was locked and he never ever saw Ellie's body. And guess what? The CCTV

from the building shows Sam Goldberg going back up to his apartment all on his own. And it also shows Philip Panton sat at his desk at the front of the building. Yes. Philip is the only one who's not lying. And we've got a bit of an interview with Philip for you. Did Sam ever ask you to go, or did you ever go with Sam up to the door when he was trying to get in? Do you know where that story came from? Came from him. He knew I didn't walk up with him.

And I get angry when I hear that, Because for him to lie on me or any concierge who would have been there at that particular time, it says a lot about him. We were just at Ellen's best friend's house, and she was telling us that she talked to Sam afterwards, and he said that the security guard advised him to use his shoulder to bust open the door. Really? Okay, if that's what he says, that's a truth don't need no company man. You know, if that's what he said, that's what it is for him. My cameras and my guards, I was sitting at the front desk and advised him not to go upstairs.

I know he lied. He know he lied. But why doesn't the system say, well, did anybody ever ask him, why did you lie on the guard? That was the way he had proof to say that say that he you know I don't know if anybody talked to him that way I don't know why they don't talk to him that way I certainly would talk to him that way because if I applied my street knowledge to it I can get to him say what you talking about man you know well

I wouldn't I can go to him like that. They're gonna arrest me later. You feel me? Naturally, the police had access to the CCTV and to Philip. If they really did tell the medical examiner's office that they had an eyewitness to the door having been locked three months after Ellie died, they were absolutely knowingly lying. And that is the biggest issue in all this, right? They would have known that Philip Hinton did not go up there with Sam Goldberg. Whether Sam Goldberg told them that or not, they would

have known or they could have easily checked. But they didn't and they knowingly lied. To change the verdict. In the manner of death. So right, let's forget the fucking eyewitness that supposedly saw that the door was latched from the inside. That's obviously bullshit. Instead, let's now address the door and the latch itself. Because I know there are still people out there who believe that Ellie really did kill herself. And if the door really was locked from the inside, then yes, you may well be right. Ellie had to have done it to herself.

But let's be clear what exactly it is that we're talking about here. The door of the apartment had a deadbolt. But this was not the lock that was on. The latch that Sam Goldberg claims was on was one of those swing guard latches like you find on like hotel room doors. What that means is, even if it was latched from the inside, those latches are very easy to fiddle with. There are loads of videos and tutorials online about how to put the latch on from the

outside. And also Melissa Ware, the building manager, even says in a recent interview that she did with CNN that she has at time slammed the door so hard that the latch shut itself from the inside. And she said, if I needed to, I could definitely replicate that. And actually, since this case, the building doesn't even use those latches on their doors anymore because they are so easy to fuck with. So, as a lot of people speculate online, Sam Goldberg could have put the latch on himself from the outside and pretended that he was locked out and then broken the door down. The problem there though is that if that was the truth it would have been on CCTV. You would have seen him fiddling around with it.

I mean maybe he slams it hard enough and knows but that is a big risk to take. You don't know that it's locked from the inside. Like I don't know. Potentially but then equally police have definitely lost, covered up and hidden evidence from this case. So maybe they do have it. And we've got an example of that. There was a video recording of the apartment that Melissa Ware took, the

building manager, and she did that before the flat was professionally cleaned. That tape was handed in to the police, but they, they vanished it. It's gone, lost. That's going to be your best source of any form of evidence because the fucking place has been cleaned. That tape was handed in to the police but they vanished it. It's gone. Lost. That's going to be your best source of any form of evidence because the fucking place has been cleaned. She took it before the cleaning crew got there and they were like, we lost it. It was only after the Greenbergs threatened the police with another lawsuit that the tape miraculously reappeared years later. So we can't say anything for sure.

No. So let's instead talk about things we actually can examine. Let's talk about the damage to the broken down door. The damage, if you would be so kind, dear listeners, as to go and Google it, you will see that there is very, very minimal damage to the door on the inside of the apartment. Now as Tom Brennan has explained in his reports, and this is a quote, the only way you can open that sort of lock is if one or other piece is completely dismounted from where it's mounted. That bar isn't going to open up for you any other way. Now look, if you're fiddling with it with a credit card, doing something, using a little tool to open it, whatever, again, don't know that that's

not on the CCTV, the police could be hiding it. That could be a way in which there's no damage, right? But Sam Goldberg says he broke down the door and the latch was on. If you take a look at the pictures, the latch is mounted onto the frame of the door and also onto the door itself and it's screwed in with three or four screws either side. If you look at it, there is minimal damage where like one screw has fallen out of the side that it's attached to the door frame and it's lifted up a little bit. As Tom Brennan says, one of those must have had to have flung off entirely for the door to open. You cannot get it off if both sides are still mounted to the frame and to the door and that is exactly what you

see here. So basically if either part of the latch is still attached to the frame and to the door. And that is exactly what you see here. So basically, if either part of the latch is still attached to the door or a part is attached to the door frame, it's just not going to have come off if Sam Goldberg truly broke down that door and got in. And this just isn't the case here. The photos from the night show that the latch is only partially dislodged. Both sides are still fastened to the door and the jam with multiple screws. So the damage to the latch is only partially dislodged, both sides are still fastened to the door and the jamb with multiple screws. So the damage to the latch wasn't extensive enough for the apartment door to have been broken down.

All you can see is that a bit of paint and wood has like splintered and one screw has fallen out like I said. And coming back to Gavin Fish, the YouTuber I mentioned last week, he actually did a little test on the latch theory and again look, I know this't scientific, but I do think it's worth mentioning. He attached the same style swing guard latch to a similar wooden door and broke it down. And as predicted in his video, the door frame ripped right off the wall and one entire side of the latch was removed before he was able to get into that room. UFO lands in Suffolk, and that's official, said the News of the World.

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ago. Are we alone? Encounters is a podcast which is going to find out. Listen to Encounters exclusively and ad free on Wondry+. Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or in Apple podcasts. Being an actual royal is never about finding your happy ending. But the worst part is, if they step out of line or fall in love with the wrong person, it changes the course of history. I'm Arisha Skidmore Williams.

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You can listen to Even The Royals early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus. So there isn't any proof that the latch was ever on. We've only got Sam Goldberg's word for it. And the damage to the door just doesn't fit his story. The minimal damage to the door actually looks more consistent with someone putting the latch on and wrenching the door from the inside before they went outside and pretended that they'd been locked out. We can't prove any of this for sure, but as we can see, the best reason as to why this case was ruled as a suicide, the locked door, is bullshit. And Osborne himself said in his deposition that if there was any doubt that the fiancé was escorted by the security guard or if it was untrue what he was being told then this cannot be a suicide. Yeah, cheers. Thank you. Thank you so much for your time.

It's ridiculous. They're like okay so you made the decision on the door being locked from the inside and being told by the police that there was an eyewitness to the fact the door was locked from the inside and he's like yes what if we told you that that's not true? What if we told you there was no eyewitness to the door having been locked from the inside? and he's like yes what if we told you that that's not true what if we told you there was no eye witness to the door having been locked from the inside and he's like in that case I would have to change my verdict that is true but he hasn't changed his verdict yep even still even after he was confronted and then given the CCTV of Goldberg going back to his apartment on his ones Dr. Osborne refused to change

his verdict he now claimed that he stuck with suicide because of a snowy meeting with a renowned neuropathologist, Dr Lucy Raw Adams. Osborne said he wanted to find out if any of the wounds to Ellie's neck would have rendered her, or could have rendered her, incapable of inflicting the subsequent wounds to herself and also, we should just chuck in there, incapable of defending herself and therefore getting cuts on her hands and also whether she was therefore incapable of inflicting that final wound to her chest. And so to try and do this, apparently Dr Osborne took a section of Ellie's spinal cord to Dr Rourke for what he called a curbside examination.

That's horrible. He didn't even get to come to his lab. He says, I'll just bring it to you where you work, meet me outside your building, have a look at it, tell me if the injuries to her spinal cord are severe enough that she couldn't have continued stabbing herself. On top of that, Dr Osborne said that Dr Rourke didn't do a microscopic exam. Quite difficult to do that on a kerbside, one would imagine. But even still, she was able to tell him that the dura, which is the sheath covering the spinal cord, had been cut, but not the spinal cord itself. Therefore, there was no indication that Ellie had lost motor function. And she could tell all of

that from glancing at a section of spinal cord, not the whole thing, in the snow. Possibly. Dr. Rourke has come out and said that she has no memory whatsoever of this meeting taking place, being asked to look at any evidence, and she also has no paperwork, no report, or no invoice to prove that she did that work at all. To which she said if she had looked at it she would have charged. Dr. Rock was clear. I must therefore conclude that I did not see the specimen in question. And even Dr. Osborne's boss, Galeno, has said that he does find this whole situation to be quite unlikely. Even Galeno says he doesn't believe that Osborne showed the spinal column piece to

Dr. Rock. Why are people lying about very provable things? I don't know, to give me a brain aneurysm. But Galino did his own dodgy little investigation. Would you like to hear about it? Because Galino, according to him, believed that it was quote, possible for Ellen to have created all of these wounds herself. And he said he found no reason to disagree with the suicide ruling because of a 2019

exam that he had asked another pathologist named Dr Lindsay Emery to carry out. Now Dr Emery, like I said, is another pathologist who works in this medical examiner's office. She's also certified in neuropathology Dr. Galino says that she assessed a section of Ellen's spinal column that was still in storage at the ME's office. And what Dr. Emery did and what she has to say is very interesting. Dr. Emery observed that there were two cuts on the specimen she was shown, one to the bone and ligaments in the back of Ellie Greenberg's spinal column and a matching cut to the dora. These were clearly as a result of what Dr. Emery noted to be bonafide sharp force injury.

So not a result of a hand slipping during an autopsy. And what was shocking about these two injuries was that there was no hemorrhaging around them. Dr Emery testified in her deposition saying a lack of hemorrhage means no pulse. Therefore, Dr Emery said that if the cut was administered while Ellen was still alive, she would have expected to see hemorrhaging, that seems very obvious. And when asked by Podraza, since you don't see that, would you weigh a little bit more in suggesting that Ellen was dead at the time this wound was administered? To which Dr Emery replied, yes. Considering this huge potential bombshell, because in a case like this it doesn't get

much bigger, if you can even say that one wound to Ellie was administered after she was no longer alive, then it is not a suicide. But despite this, how come there was no mention of this anywhere? How was there no mention of Dr Emery's report? How was there no mention of what Dr Emery had found? This only came to light after the depositions. Despite always generating a report following an examination, Dr Emery stated in her deposition that on this occasion, Dr Galina would ask her not to, saying that he would just incorporate her findings into his own notes. But guess what? He didn't. Bingo, right? I just, as didn't. Bingo, right? I just, as a pathologist, as a doctor, someone is commissioning me to examine something which they have paid me to do, and they don't want me to do a written

report. Quite. So yeah, we might be thinking, bingo, might be thinking, there we go, we got him, Dr. Emery has come, she's done a deposition and she has said, I was asked not to write a report and this is what I found. Well, a month after her deposition, the city filed a written declaration by Dr. Emery in which she or they said that she hadn't fully understood the scope of the questions posed to her at the deposition by the city's attorney and said that there could be several other possibilities for a lack of hemorrhaging. She's a fucking pathologist, I don't think she didn't understand the scope of questions

being asked to her in a case where they're trying to file a lawsuit to get the verdict changed from suicide to homicide. Those silly women not understanding the questions they're being asked. And I beg, what other cause for lack of hemorrhaging could there be? They say various other things. They say things like there could have been a hemorrhage and it could have been wiped away. Oh no, I don't care. I don't want to know. It could have been cleaned away during the autopsy, which I have listened to experts talk about this and they're like maybe to the juror. Maybe it could have been washed away to the dura. It could not have been washed away from the internal injury. Or there'll be people who say it could have been a slip of the hand during

the autopsy. But Dr. Emery was very clear that that's not what it was. It was sharp force impact. So let's talk about them. Let's talk about them stab wounds. The Greenbergs hired a company called BioMX to produce a computer-generated model of the stab wounds that Ellie sustained. And then BioMX assessed those stab wounds to see if it was biomechanically possible for Ellie to have inflicted all of those wounds on herself. And their conclusion was, no it isn't. There is absolutely no biomechanically possible universe in which she could have done that herself. And Bio-MX are specifically used in trials all the time for their expert analysis. The angles at which the knife, or knives, because there is a theory that they were too knives,

but Dr Osborne's report was so bad we don't even fucking know, so let's move on. The angles at which the knife entered Ellie was not consistent with self-stabbing, rather the wounds are consistent with quote, focalised stabbing by an assailant. Even if Ellie had been super flexible or hypermobile and therefore able to move her joints into those crazy positions, which some people can do, the force needed to plunge the knife into herself again and again in order to penetrate so deep, could not have been generated with her arms in those positions. On top of that, Ellie was right-handed, and some of the wounds go from right to left.

Not to mention the fact that her left hand was totally clean, no blood at all with a towel in it. How are you going to stab yourself 20 times and have one clean hand at the end? The mind boggles. I don't have one anymore. Now, the 3D analysis done by BioMX also showed that two of the stab wounds to the back of Ellie's neck were particularly severe. Both were incredibly deep. One penetrated Ellie's vertebra, spinal column and spinal cord, and the other had entered

her brain just as Dr Ross and Dr Wecht had also found. Neither the 3D analysis nor the autopsy have been able to determine the order in which the stab wounds happened. The only thing we can say for sure is that the one to Ellie's chest was the final strike as the knife was still there when she was found. So if we're saying the ones to her back were that bad, how's she stabbing herself in the chest? And what's interesting is that the 3D analysis shows that several of the previous stab wounds, such as the neck injury or the gash to her head, would have left Ellie with impaired

coordination, semi-consciousness and unconsciousness. So how could she possibly have put a knife in her chest? To believe it was a suicide, you'd have to believe that Ellie just kept stabbing herself through all the blood, all the pain, all the debilitating effects she would no doubt have been experiencing and also, if Dr Emery is to believe, which I think she is, dying. Paralyzed. Yes. It's touched her spinal cord. She would have been paralysed and I think the only, we don't know the order like we said, but I think it makes sense that the stabbing to the back happened first and then the stabbing to the front.

What are you doing? Back, front, back, front, and then final in the chest? Come on, come on. This is so disgusting. I feel so upset by this entire case. It's ludicrous. And even if you defy the laws of human possibility, why would Ellie Greenberg do all of those things, which are biologically impossible, but never mind, why would she do that out of the blue? Why would she go through such a violently bloody suicide when she had

absolutely no signs of psychosis before. Because it is a psychotic thing. Thank you. This case, this kind of stabbing death. I'm not saying people don't stab themselves to death. Of course, we've talked about it last week, 2% of suicides in the US. Sure, whatever. This is psychotic. Yes, people are like, Ellie was suffering with anxiety. There is no mention of her acting psychotically. There's no toxicology that shows she was on fucking PCP when she did this to herself. No and famously people who are in psychosis don't lie about it because they don't know

that they are. That's the whole point. She's not going to be able to cover that up. And also I think it's definitely worth mentioning that Ellie's obviously covered in stab wounds, but I think the injury to her head, again, you guys can look at pictures of like the autopsy. It's the biomechs basically take the autopsy photos and they've created like a computer generated version of them. So you can see all of the knife wounds and you can see the gash to Ellie's head.

It looks to so many experts who have examined it to be more consistent with Ellie having been struck on the head rather than stabbed, like the wound to her head is a strike, not a stab wound. And if this was the first blow, then it could explain why Ellie didn't have any defensive cuts to her hands. She may well have been rendered unconscious as soon as the attack started. That's a lot to take in, but luckily for you, you can just rewind this as long as many times as you like. But it is undeniable there is a lot of evidence pointing to the fact that

this is absolutely not a suicide. And as Tom Brennan says, at the very least, the wound analysis findings should be enough to change Ellie's manner of death from a suicide to at least undetermined. Especially when you throw in the fact that Dr. Osborne's own words say that if there was no eyewitness to the door being locked then that should be unadmissible. And if that were to happen it would be enough for an investigation to be reopened into the death of Ellie Greenberg. Yet the Philadelphia authorities refuse.

Why would they do that? Why would Philadelphia officials battle so hard to stop that from happening? So, with no other choice, the Greenbergs filed a second civil suit, which accuses the police, the prosecutors and the medical examiner's office officials involved in the secret meeting of individual and willful misconduct and participating in a conspiracy to cover up the murder of their daughter. So as the Greenbergs continue to challenge the findings, the case was passed for review from the DA's office to the Attorney General's office.

But sadly, they seemed just as reluctant to take it seriously. And then in 2019, the AG's office finally finished their review and ruled again! The Ellie Greenberg had indeed killed herself. Time for another plot twist? No, I don't want any more. No, it's so twisty. One more. A statement was released by the Attorney General's office in 2022 defending their work because

obviously there was a hell of a lot of criticism for the work that they had done. Tom Brennan came out pretty much straight away after he looked at what they had done and said the scope of what they did was completely minimal. They barely looked at it. They come out and defend it and it says that the office under Josh Shapiro conducted what they called an exhaustive review, including new forensic analysis and that it took over four years of work. Despite this, the office said that it regretted that those efforts could not bring more closure.

Then they cited the appearance of a conflict of interest. And so the AG's office washed its hands of the matter and returned the case to Philadelphia. Now what is this appearance of conflict of interest, I hear you scream. Well for that we need to go back to Mr Gavin Fish. He got a tip from someone because he has a YouTube channel, people were messaging him and he asked people if anyone had any information to get in touch with him and somebody did. And somebody who knew, Attorney General at the time, Josh Shapiro, got in touch and told Gavin that Josh Shapiro and Uncle Jimmy, remember him, well Uncle Jimmy's daughter had gone

to school with none other than Josh Shapiro. Gavin went straight to eBay and found the yearbook for that school and they did know each other. There's pictures of them together. Cayman Schwartzman's wife went to the same school as well with Josh Shapiro and are we saying that just because they knew each other that's proof that Josh Shapiro was covering up the murder of Ellie Greenberg. Actually, we're not. We're kind of, well, whatever. It's hard to say. But it is pretty dodgy. And he knew that he knew them. That's the thing, right? He should have

recused himself the minute he knew that he knew that family, but he didn't. And it only gets worse when you learn that the Schwarzmans and the Goldbergs have been donating to Shapiro's political campaign. And we know that, thanks once again to Gavin. Gavin made all of this public. And that's when the attorney general's office dropped the case and they handed it off to Chester County in August, 2022. It's literally only after Gavin Fish makes a YouTube video

holding up the yearbook with the pictures of them together. They're like, there's an appearance of conflict of interest. We've done four years of work on it, we still think it's a suicide, but we're now passing it over to Chester County, it's nothing to do with us anymore. Fuck's sake. But if anyone listening thought that this case going over to Chester County would lead to justice, I'm sorry to say that it has not. Progress has been virtually non-existent, with barely any updates coming out publicly and even the Greenbergs saying that for the first year that Chester County

had this case they didn't hear a single word from them. Finally, in November 2024, the Chester County DA's office stated that after a two-year reinvestigation they found no evidence of a crime. They released a statement saying that they were quote, unable to move forward with criminal charges and were therefore placing the investigation into an inactive state. Now the phraseology of the statement I think is pretty interesting because a lot of people were very angry when this came out and I totally understand why. But if we really dig into it, I think what they're saying here isn't that they don't think a crime has occurred, but rather quote, and this is what they say, we cannot prove

beyond a reasonable doubt that a crime was committed. We cannot meet the burden of proof with the current evidence. But there is no statute of limitations for murder in Pennsylvania. We are not closing this case. But the reason there's no fucking evidence, if they looked into it at all, is because the police fucked up the crime scene so hard at the start. But I also have to feel like, is everything we've just talked about not enough for beyond reasonable doubt to open this case again?

Uh huh. And it seems that they're saying that they do think it was a murder, but they can't prove it. And they can't prove it because the police on the scene that night fucked it up. We know that. And that is absolutely the fault of the lead detective who was there that night. We don't know who that is. But we do suspect that he was influenced by the Schwarzmans. It's too questionable for him to not have been influenced. I really do think it's this one lead detective who's influenced by the Schwarzmans, says

this is a suicide, everybody else does what this lead detective says because he's the fucking lead detective. They sweep it under the rug and then it comes back and bites him in the arse and they spend the next 14 years covering it up. Everybody else is trying to cover their asses for the piss poor job that their department did and they don't want anyone to look at them or criticize them or scrutinize them or any of those things. And the same thing goes for the medical

examiner's office. They fucked it up and they tried to stop us all from knowing. And look it's been passed from department to department to department, the DA's office, the AG's office, Chester County, everybody's saying, oh, like, we don't know. I really do think it's just law enforcement not wanting to throw Philadelphia Police Department rightly under the bus where they fucking belong because it's going to reflect badly and it's going to open a whole shitstorm. But I also think they don't seem to be taking into account how much of a shitstorm this level of, like, secrecy is leading to in terms of people calling about a conspiracy and a cover-up.

Yeah. Now the two lawsuits that the Greenbergs have brought, which we told you about, so one seeking to change the ruling on Ellie's death certificate and the other alleging a conspiracy by local officials to cover up the murder, are still active. And although they have both failed in lower courts and at appeals over the years, we do have to say that the judges who oversaw these cases and these appeals noted that the official investigation of Ellie's death was, quote, deeply flawed. With one judge at an appeal even releasing a 30-page just type raid at the medical examiner's office and the

Philadelphia PD saying we hope justice will be done one day. But sadly their hands are tied due to the difficulty of changing a coroner's ruling and like we told you last week to date the Greenbergs have spent more than $700,000 on these lawsuits and their own private investigations. But they aren't stopping any time soon. Though Mr Greenberg is convinced that the city is just hoping, in his own words, by procrastinating and postponing that he'll either just die or run out of money. But he says that he and his wife will keep going, saying in a recent interview that their goal of winning justice for their daughter has given their golden years a deeper meaning. Because they're both in their like 70s now.

Saying, this has given us a purpose and a mission. When I think about stopping this mission, I get sick. Whatever happens next, the Greenbergs aren't giving up. This case will be incredibly difficult to prosecute, due to how much the Philadelphia Police Department, the DA's office and the medical examiner fucked up. Even a civil case against Sam Goldberg would be hard, if not impossible, because of the suicide ruling. And if the suicide ruling was changed, it would be unprecedented. Even though all the evidence on Ellie's body should be enough to have her death ruled as at least undetermined,

especially given the fact that during their own deposition, the medical examiner's office said that they changed the manner of death verdict based on the fact that the door was locked from the inside, which wasn't, or at least questionable, and also the lack of defensive wounds, which can be explained if Ellie was unconscious, as her head and her spinal injuries absolutely could have done. So what about Sam Goldberg? Well, two years after Ellie died, he got married and now lives in New York with his wife and their two kids. He works as a TV producer and seems to be doing pretty well for himself. And until December 2024, so just last month, he had remained totally silent with regards to what

happened to Ellie. But last month he replied to a CNN journalist, who wrote a long-form article on this case. Now, of course, as a journalist says, in the article, Sam Goldberg ignored all the important questions that the journalist had posed to him, about the inconsistencies of the story, etc. But this is what Sam Goldberg had to say. When Ellen took her own life, it left me bewildered. She was a wonderful and kind person who had everything to live for. When she died, a part of me died with her. Unimaginably, in the years that have passed, I have had to endure the unimaginable passing of my future wife and the pathetic and despicable attempts to desecrate my reputation and her privacy, by creating a narrative that embraces lies, distortions and

falsehoods in order to avoid the truth. Mental illness is very real and has many victims. I hope and pray that you never lose someone you love, like I did, to a terrible disease and then be accused by ignorant and misinformed people of having caused her death. If you're really writing a truthful story, dig deeper and please do some good by raising awareness for mental health. Best, SG. That's about as convincing as Jay-Z's statement about his rape conviction. It's so badly written as well.

And I- Right. Awareness around mental health, I understand. Yes, obviously. Something we need to talk about. It drives me up the fucking wall when people say, it's so real, it's so real, and we just have- No one is saying it's not real! Nobody is saying it's- We all know it's real! It comes back to the point we made last week. Just because you are dealing with mental health challenges doesn't mean you can't get fucking murdered. Oh my god, it's so infuriating that he's just like, poor me, I'm the victim. I'm the victim. The majority of that statement is about how he has been victimised by it. Like Jay-Z. Yes. And again, it's raise awareness for mental health. Honestly, I fucking hate it. Raise awareness.

I'll raise awareness of you being a murderer. And also look, again this might be an unfair statement but please Hannah tell me if it is. Typically I would assume, having gone through this in my own family not too long ago, when somebody kills themselves, the people that love that person look for any other alternative for what truly happened than be able to face up to the fact that it was a suicide. Because that is so painful.

Ellie's parents are heartbroken when they think it's a suicide. They are so quote unquote happy when they are told that it is a homicide by the medical examiner at first. But Sam Goldberg jumps immediately without question to the fact that Ellie killed herself. He's never, doesn't look for an intruder, doesn't think maybe somebody did it. He hasn't seen the CCTV, he's been gone at the gym. How does he know nobody broke in and killed her? He never ever ever questions that this was a straightforward suicide or that she fell

on her knife. That to me is very strange. But we don't want to finish with him because he makes me sick. We're going to end with Ellie instead. A woman who absolutely had everything to live for. Everyone who knew her loved her. She was smart, ambitious, caring and fun and her legacy is the love her parents have for her. Even after all these years. And we've got absolutely no doubt that Joshua and Sandy Greenberg will continue to fight for justice until their final breaths.

Ellie's life was worth more than Sam Goldberg's rage and the ineptitude, cowardice and corruption of multiple law enforcement agencies and medical examiners. So like we asked you to last week, we're going to double ask you please share this story, pile the pressure on, because it's all we can do. It's the only way that justice might be done. Please don't go after Sam Goldberg yourself. No. Please don't do that. Leave that to me. You're not gonna help the Greenbergs if you do that. Mmm. The only way to put pressure on is all they're asking. All they're asking is that in light of the evidence they have collected through their

private investigations and through a variety of experts that they have paid for out of their own pockets, that this be re-ruled as an undetermined death at the very least and that a proper impartial investigation is carried out into Ellie's death. And justice be done. They're not saying lock Sam Goldberg up. No. We are, but they're not. Don't you do that. Don't stoop to art level. No, exactly. Be better than us. And yeah, that's all they want, right? So that's it, guys. That is the finale of our series into the murder of Ellie Greenberg because I am convinced beyond a the murder of Ellie Greenberg because I am convinced beyond a reasonable doubt that Ellie Greenberg was indeed murdered.

I am too. There you go. I'm sure there's gonna be a lot of opinions about this case. I am surprised that anybody thinks that she wasn't but I know there are some of you out there so I'll see you in the comments. I won't be commenting back because I will die but But yeah, I'm interested to see why people think it. What is it that convinces you that she did kill herself and that she wasn't killed? If you are in that camp, I would be interested to know. There you go. So there you have it. Welcome to 2025 where everything is still terrible.

So that's it guys. We will see you next week for... I want gonna say something less rage-inducing but I don't actually know. No it's Brock Turner! Oh fuck. Why did we do this? Okay well tune in next week for me to have a mental breakdown in real time. We've got to take it in turns Hannah. So bye guys, we'll see you then. Bye.

Bye. Bye. You don't believe in ghosts? I get it. Lots of people don't. I didn't either until I came face to face with them. Ever since that moment, hauntings, spirits, and the unexplained have consumed my entire life. I'm Nadine Bailey. I've been a ghost tour guide for the past 20 years.

I've taken people along with me into the shadows, uncovering the macabre tales that linger in the darkness. And inside, some of the most haunted houses, hospitals, prisons, and more. Join me every week on my podcast, Haunted Canada, as we journey through terrifying and bone-chilling stories of the unexplained. every week on my podcast, Haunted Canada, as we journey through terrifying and bone chilling stories of the unexplained. Search for Haunted Canada on Apple Podcast, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you find your favorite podcasts. I'm Jake Warren, and in our first season of Finding, I set out on a very personal quest

to find the woman who saved my mom's life. You can listen to Finding Natasha right now exclusively on Wandery Plus. In season two I found myself caught up in a new journey to help someone I've never even met but a couple of years ago I came across a social media post by a person named Loti. It read in part This is a story that I came across purely by chance, but it instantly moved me and it's taken me to a place where I've had to consider some deeper issues around mental health This is season 2 of Finding, and this time, if all goes to plan, we'll be finding Andy. You can listen to Finding Andy and Finding Natasha exclusively and ad free on Wondery Plus.

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