RedHanded - Episode 392 - The Menendez Brothers Part 2: The Sweater Defence

Episode Date: March 27, 2025

Continuing our filmed mega Menendez marathon, in this episode we dive into the sensational details of Lyle and Erik’s trial – where these Beverly Hills bad boys would need to convince the jury, and the world, of their story. We break down the explosive courtroom battles, shocking legal twists, and the media circus that turned the case into a spectacle – plus new bombshell revelations that could change everything for the brothers…With 2024’s controversial Monsters TV show thrusting the case firmly back into the spotlight – and sparking a surge of renewed Menendez mania online – look no further to make sure you're fully caught up before Erik and Lyle’s long-awaited resentencing hearing this year.Video version will be available Thursday 27th March on our YouTube channelExclusive bonus content:Wondery - Ad-free & ShortHandPatreon - Ad-free & Bonus EpisodesFollow us on social media:YouTubeTikTokInstagramVisit our website:WebsiteSources available on redhandedpodcast.comSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondry Plus subscribers can listen to Red Handed early and ad free. Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple podcasts. But before we kick off, something to remind you of or maybe something to tell you about for the first time. Wondry's Exhibit C, a true crime cruise, is happening from January 26th to the 30th, 2026, next year, sailing from Miami, which is in Florida, if you need reminding, all the way to NASA in the Bahamas. And you might already know,

you may have heard on the whispers, on the grapevine, that both Ceruti and I will be there on that cruise, and we can't wait to meet you on board. There will be absolutely loads of stuff to do there on that cruise and we can't wait to meet you on board. There will be absolutely loads of stuff to do on that big ship. Loads of cool activities, self-defence classes, true crime trivia nights, workshops led by true crime experts, loads of stuff that you can't even imagine. The final pre-sale deadline is the 26th of February so make sure you sign up soon to

secure your spot on the best choice of cabin. And those cabins, my guys, pretty good. Go to exhibitseacruise.com for even more details. Everything you need to know. It's all at exhibitseacruise.com. See you in the Bahamas. Now you know everything you need to know.

Let's get back to the show. When Luigi Mangione was arrested for allegedly shooting the CEO of UnitedHealthcare, he didn't just spark outrage, he ignited a cultural firestorm. Is the system working or is it time for a reckoning? I'm Jesse Weber. Listen to Law and Crime's Luigi exclusively on Wondery+. Scam Factory, the explosive new true crime podcast from Wondery Plus. wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Saruti.

I'm Hannah. And welcome to Red Handed, where we're back at it, back at it again. Let's do it. I want you all to picture Los Angeles. It's 1993, a crowded courtroom packed with anxious relatives, doe-eyed murder junkies, and bloodthirsty journos. In the witness box, two handsome young men weep into their preppy pastel jumpers, and the prosecution and defense exchange blows like seasoned boxers. prosecution and defence exchange blows like seasoned boxers. At the centre of it sits a hopelessly deadlocked jury. Was it cold-blooded murder, self-defence or something in between?

If you're not sure, don't sweat it because we're going to run through everything you need to know today. And even if at the end you still don't know, doesn't matter, newsflash, that's also fine. Absolutely. Now, if you have not yet listened to part one of our Menendez brother story, then please go do that. I highly recommend that you do that first, because we are going to be diving straight into it this week with the trials of Eric and Lau Menendez. going to be diving straight into it this week with the trials of Eric and Lyle Menendez. And the still today raging debate about whether justice was truly served back in the 90s. Eric and Lyle were arrested back in March 1990 and chucked in the LA County jail for

three whole years before July 93 when their joint trial finally began. Exactly a month shy of four years after their parents' brutal slayings. Why did it take so long? Admin, but the life or death kind. May you cast your mind back to the confession tapes made by psychiatrist slash sex pest Dr Oseale? Cause you need them. In 1990, after the initial arrests, Judge James Albracht decreed that the tapes of Eric's therapy sessions with Dr Oseale should be admissible in court, since Lyle had allegedly broken patient privilege by threatening the doctor himself.

The brothers' lawyers immediately challenged this resulting in a two-year tug of war over what future jurors would be allowed to hear. That's exactly what Jay-Z is doing right now. Anyway, ultimately two out of the three Oseal tapes were allowed as evidence, except, quite annoyingly, the one where Eric described the killings. And then in 1992, Lyle and Eric Menendez were charged with the murders of their parents. Although prosecutors did try to add special circumstances to the indictment, namely that the brothers had killed for financial gain, that was ultimately scrapped due to insufficient

evidence. Of what? I'm glad you said it. I literally don't know. It's clear as fucking day, innit? They literally spent millions within the six months they were free before they were arrested. And employed someone to try and find the will and then found a will which was made eight years before so may well have been updated. And we know it was, we know it was.

Anyway, on the 20th of July 1993, it was showtime. The long anticipated trial finally began with round the clock coverage on Court TV. The LA Times' Anne O'Neill described the ensuing media frenzy as a soap opera wrapped within a psychotrama. Two attractive, wealthy young men accused of sensational brutality in the glossy heights of Beverly Hills. What could be better? OJ.

Yeah. Eric and Lyle were basically like catnip for the press. And one overexcited journalist actually gushed to camera on the courthouse steps, they are too fine to go to prison. Woo! What? I'm upset. Me too. I hope that person is upset with themselves. Ugh, yeah. Aside from the media cameras getting all steamed up, the Menendez case came at a pretty spicy time for the Los Angeles justice system in general. The controversial decision to acquit

four LAPD officers of police brutality of extraordinarily now famous unarmed black man Rodney King set the city ablaze with riots just a year earlier. The dust had just about settled, but the district attorney's office really needed a win to restore public confidence in the law. Which some would argue argued never really managed. So the Menendez brothers donning very serious glasses and dressed up in pastel sweaters, disgusting, as advised by their legal team, in an attempt to project the kind of harmless, very white neutrality of wholesome all-American boys might just have been the first lambs

offered up to the slaughter. I get it. Make them look as squeaky clean as you can. That's your job. Of course. Of course. Of course. And look, I get it. Some people will be like, Eric and Lyle Menendez were sacrificed on the altar of the LAPD closing a high profile case after the Rodney King riots. But they fucking did it. They did, but they weren't like, you know, I will just grab the sons and stick them in prison and say they killed their parents. The trial, as we will go on to talk about, is not about whether they did it or not. They did it. We know that.

And how often are children of such privilege, the ones that get slaughtered in situations like that? This is what I mean. It's very weird. Like, let's keep going get slaughtered in situations like that. This is what I mean. It's very weird. Let's keep going. We'll get to all that. But yes. As Eric and Lyle debuted their preppy new look, the main players in this court case took their places. In Eric's corner, she may be tiny, but she sure is scrappy. The pocket rocket herself, Leslie Abramson. In Lyle's corner, the soft-spoken assassin, Jill Lansing. And for the prosecution, she's a prim and proper gal with an enviable collection of

alice bands. It's Pamela Bozenich. There was also Lester Kuriyama for the prosecution, but really this legal battle was all about the girls. It was a fierce clash of female legal titans. It was time for both sides to present their arguments. And the one thing that everyone could agree on was that Lyle and Eric Menendez had indeed killed their parents.

The thornier question at the crux of the trial was why. Why had Lyle and Eric pulled the trigger multiple times, again and again and again, that night in August 1989? Why had they chosen to take the lives of the people who had brought them into the world? And if a jury could come close to answering those questions, would it, and should it, make a difference? In a nutshell, jurors had to determine not if the boys had killed their parents. That was obvious. But what specific crime should they be convicted of based on the degree of responsibility and intent?

Yeah. So I don't want to confuse people because like the prosecution never has to show motive. Like that is something that doesn't have to happen. They just have to show that they did it. Motive helps because we all know like telling a good story is much more likely to, you know, close a case. It's different here when we're talking about why it's as Hannah said and is going to explain it's about what are we're talking about why it's as Hannah said, and is going to explain, it's about what are we actually convicting them off here? Like where does it sit in terms of culpability, in terms of liability, in terms of responsibility? What is it that we're saying was the reason and therefore what is the actual crime?

Which obviously affects the length and severity of sentencing. Precisely. That's the only thing that's being argued. Yes. So it's basically a trial of possible mitigating circumstances. Exactly. And when it comes to options of convictions, sentences, penalties, etc., there's actually quite a lot more options than you may originally have thought. There are very, very tiny weenie differences in definition, which is a good thing when it comes to the law.

The prosecution were gunning for first-degree murder, which is usually known as cold-blooded murder because it has to qualify first degree, it has to have significant premeditation and a conscious intent to kill in the British system we call that malice a forethought. Because we're wankers. Failing that, the prosecution would have been pretty happy with second degree murder. That still has intention, but perhaps is not as premeditated, like killing in the heat of the moment in a response to a confrontation, for example.

The defence weren't trying to get the Menendez brothers off scot-free, they just wanted to bring things down to voluntary manslaughter. And the crucial difference between voluntary manslaughter and second-degree murder is, quote, the presence of provocation or a reasonable trigger for strong emotions, lessening the degree of responsibility and providing justification for the accused's actions. In the Menendez case, that meant arguing what Leslie Abramson and Jill Lansing called imperfect self-defense. Which before we go on, self-defense is hard enough on its own. That is so hard to pull off unless you're in like Florida. Like it's such a tricky thing to be going after as a lawyer. And I just don't know why you would

push for it. I really don't. I think the challenge is that Leslie Abramson has done it before. Yes, you're right. She's done it before with Salvatierra. She's done it before. And also she's got fuck all else. They were spending millions buying Rolexes, buying fucking Jeeps. This is the best she's got. So yeah, I think she's like, I'll give it a shot. I agree. But I think what I'm trying to get at is that like, realistically, how much of a difference is there between voluntary manslaughter and imperfect self-defense? Like what tip of the scale is she after?

It's because she's trying to say with voluntary manslaughter, it could just be a situation where you say something or do something to me that the court's team was emotionally provocative enough that I killed you. And therefore it was, I knew what I was doing. I knew that I could likely kill you, but I was in a fugue state almost like the red mist had descended. And we're going to take that into account because what was said or what was done was so provocative that like, you know, you tell me you killed my mom and then I kill you. It's like the red mist descended in the court except Sam. With the imperfect self-defence issues going for comes into that abuse as the motive, abuse as the reason, because she's saying they actively feared for their lives. It wasn't just like one thing happened there that made them snap.

They actively thought that they were going to be killed. But because Jose and Kitty weren't armed, and there's no clear evidence that they were going to be killed. But because Jose and Kitty weren't armed, and there's no clear evidence that they were actually going to kill the boys, they're having to go for this kind of imperfect self-defense. Which is basically the same as the kind of Florida thing you're saying about stand your ground where you can't prove that there was an actual threat to life, but you perceive there was enough of a threat to life that it should be valid. So that's my understanding of what the difference is there. Because she's saying they genuinely believed they were going to be killed.

I understand what she's saying. I just think it's pointless in terms of like, and obviously she's doing it for, in my opinion, her own career, her own esteem. But if your job as a lawyer is to get a low sentence, why fucking bother? Because I think that's how she's going to make her name in her mind, right? Yeah, I agree. I agree. Anyway, so as Saru said, the defense's job both of them was to prove or at least try to that the boys actions were driven by a genuine fear for their lives, regardless of whether that threat was actually real. In essence, it didn't matter if Jose and Kitty were really planning to kill their children, only that Lyle and Eric thought that they might. Which in turn,

the defence argued, made the Menendez brothers less morally culpable than second degree murder. But to my point, not voluntary manslaughter. Yeah. If they'd at least stuck a gun in Jose's hand and fired a few times, they could have said self-defense straight up. But because they didn't, she couldn't work with that. So yes, head spinning. Doesn't matter. Let's keep going. Let's get into the arguments. So yes, head spinning, doesn't matter. Let's keep going. Let's get into the arguments. Unlike most of LA, our mate, Prosecutor Pam, says that she had no real feelings about the Menendez brothers when she came face to face with them on the stand. Which is what a good lawyer should say.

Yes. And I love this. I love this. She described them as like potted plants, poisoned potted plants, but she said there was nothing about them that I found fascinating. And I get it. I get it. I've watched a lot of fucking video footage of them because like I said, the tapes were rolling throughout that entire trial. They are so boring. And yes, possibly one of the best burns I've heard in quite a while. Pam's prosecution team set out to prove to the jury that Lyle and Eric were dumb jock killers who'd hatched this half-baked plan to kill off their parents for the inheritance money. Although, like we told you, the special circumstances for killing for financial gain

had been scrapped before the trial, the prosecution still pushed this line of argument as the primary motive for the murders. And again, just to be clear, the prosecution never has to prove motive. But remember, this trial isn't about whether Lyle and Eric did it, but it's about why. And that is obviously in order to determine the nature of the convictions and the sentence. And that's why I find it even more bizarre that the prosecution essentially had its hands tied behind its back by saying that they couldn't have this argument, well, they do make the argument of it being for financial gain,

but that special circumstance being removed, that it was easily provable. It was for financial gain. But like I said, they argue that case anyway. You know those creepy stories that give you goosebumps? The ones that make you really question what's real? Well, what if I told you that some of the strangest, darkest, and most mysterious stories are not found in haunted houses or abandoned forests, but instead in hospital rooms and

doctor's offices? Hi, I'm Mr. Ballin, the host of Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries. And each week on my podcast, you can expect to hear stories about bizarre illnesses no one can explain, miraculous recoveries that shouldn't have happened, and cases so baffling they stumped even the best doctors. So if you crave totally true and thoroughly twisted horror stories and mysteries, Mr. Bollin's Medical Mysteries should be your new go-to weekly show. Listen to Mr. Bollin's Medical Mysteries on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts.

You can listen early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Spotify or Apple podcasts. Okay, this episode is all pretty grim, so let's take a little break to tell you about something else that was quite grim. If you guys don't know, and you should know by now, really, that Hannah and I have quite the bubbling Patreon situation going on. If you don't know what that is, I don't know what to say. Patreon.com slash red-handed. It's essentially like a very unsexy OnlyFan. Unless you find us talking about things like the brand new Meghan Markle debacle

with love from Meghan Sussex, whoever the fuck she is, whatever's going on, reviewing that entire series and you would like to listen to that. That's exactly what we did on our post-show party, which is called Under the Duvet, this week. So if you are interested in that kind of content from us, head on over to patreon.com red-handed right now. You can buy individual episodes if that's what you want to do. We release bonus episodes every single month. We also release weekly episodes of Under the Duvet or you can sign up for a full-on subscription and just get it direct to your ear holes every single week when we release things. So go check that out, it's quite the experience. Watching with love that is. Watching us is always a delight.

One ace that the prosecution did have up their sleeve was the very tragic screenplay that Eric and his friend Craig Signorelli had written, I don't want to say it, friends about an evil rich kid who murdered his parents. Hamilton Cromwell. For the payout. And the prosecution drew further parallels between the case and an NBC mini-series called Billionaire Boys Club that originally aired in 1987 but was rerun but a month before the Menendez brothers killed their parents. And just to be clear, this is 1989 so whatever was on TV was what people were watching.

And as luck would have it, Billionaire Boys Club is actually based on a true story about a group of wealthy kids in early 80s Beverly Hills who formed a Ponzi scam to fund their lavish lifestyles leading to the deaths of two people, including one of their fathers. Is there something in the water? I mean, it's just privilege, isn't it? It's just money. If you see that pot of money sat there and you have a dysfunctional relationship with your parents, which rich or poor can happen, and you also are so predisposed to violence or psychopathic ways of being. What's the harm in just offing them and taking what's yours in so far as you consider it to be yours?

The billionaire boys club were ruthless in their pursuit of money from their wealthy parents at any cost. Which does sound familiar. The prosecution certainly hoped that it would. It was a huge gotcha moment for them. They excitedly revealed how the true story was even closer to home for the Menendez brothers than it may initially appear because they were actually close pals with Amir Brian ElzZaminia, whose dad was the one who was accidentally asphyxiated in a car boot as a part of a kidnap hoax that went quite wrong. They all went to school together. So the prosecution so far, off to a strong start.

Uh-huh. But the billionaire boys club argument wasn't quite a slam dunk. It did become a hotly contested topic in court, with the defence team adamant that the boys were at a strict tennis camp when the show was rebroadcast in 1989, so they couldn't possibly have seen it. But in his secretly recorded chat with his screenwriting buddy Craig in November 1989, Eric suggested forming a group that would make them millions of dollars saying quote, and this is on fucking tape, kind of like the billionaire boys club, which is how I like to pretend Eric speaks.

And also, I am aware that it is the 80s and maybe they were at tennis camp, but are they really saying that everyone watches something on TV and then never talks about it again and no one's going into school being like, oh, did you see that? Oh no, I didn't actually. What's it about? Yeah, Brian. Didn't your dad get murdered? Tell me the storyline, Brian.

Yeah. Now, Dr. Ozeal also mentioned that the brothers said something to him along the lines of them being inspired by a BBC special. Now there was quite a bit of confusion about this with police initially assuming that they meant the British Broadcasting Corporation, as in that BBC rather than the billionaire boys club. So there's a little bit of confusion about what they're talking about there. Frustrated with this line of talking, Leslie Abramson accused the prosecution of irrelevant conjecture by focusing way too much on a movie that had, in her words, no tangible link to

the case. And when the judge finally drew a line under the discussion, Abramson snarkily quipped that she'd better cancel the popcorn. Leslie, I get it, man, but shut up. I just... You don't know me, Leslie, but I know you. Still though, even though she was being snocked at, Pamela, prosecutor Pam, was undeterred. She hammered home the premeditation point. It was undeniably true that the boys had gone out of their way, all the way to San Diego, to buy the shotguns that they used to kill their parents two days before the killings.

And also, they purposely bought buckshot, not birdshot, to really stop a person. And according to them, their mum has multiple guns in the house anyway. Quite. And not only that, the boys had used fake IDs to purchase the weapons. They'd collected and hidden the shell casings at the scene and covered their tracks, or at least tried to, with a Batman debacle. And that all, quite clearly, suggests, at the scene and covered their tracks or at least tried to with the Batman debacle. And that all quite clearly suggests at the very least a degree of planning, dumb planning, but a degree of planning and a conscious cover up that went beyond a crime of passion.

I literally don't know how you can argue, anyone can argue, not you, how one can argue, that they didn't take huge steps towards premeditation. Prosecutor Pam also urged jurors to consider the cold-blooded aspect of the case, by which she means the lack of provocation from Jose and Kitty on the night in question. She painted a picture of a couple enjoying a harmless night in, watching a Bond film with bowls of ice cream on the coffee table, when they're ambushed by their shotgun-toting sons. Medical witnesses testified that Jose was fatally shot while he was sitting on the couch, and Kitty had died while she was desperately

attempting to crawl to safety. Jose and Kitty were unarmed and defenseless when the boys burst into the family room. To be blunt, if this wasn't a first degree murder then what is it? And what else would be? Mm-hmm. But it is worth noting that even the prosecution were clutching at straws to spin a narrative where Jose Menendez didn't come across like a total piece of shit. Having realised early on that they'd struggle to find anyone with anything nice to say, prosecutors focus their arguments on technical and specific definitions of

murder, rather than appealing to jurors' empathy for the victims as they might ordinarily do. And prosecutor Pam actually admitted in a later documentary that in her mind, the loss of Jose was an actual plus for mankind. Oh Pammy, keep it quiet. Which like, fine, you can like not be sad that someone's dead, but it is it's not up to somebody else to decide when that person dies. No. And also, as she told ABC News in 2017, that one kid killing their parents is a bad seed. Two kids killing their parents is a bad family.

But also like... Again, I don't love it. No, I don't love it. And also I'm like, look, would either of them have acted on their own if the other one wasn't there? I think maybe Lyle would. I think so. I don't think Eric would have killed his parents if it was just him. So this argument of like, well, if both the kids hate their parents, then there must have been something going on. I find that a bit because Lyle is definitely the one in charge. Yeah, and I also think that if anyone can find me a case of a kid killing a parent or

parents, just the one, where nothing was wrong, I will doff my hat to you. Absolutely. But I can also show you loads of kids that grow up in families where something's wrong, where they don't kill their parents. So yeah, I don't know why Pam says these things, but she says them. Journalist Robert Rand, who has been reporting on this case since it happened in 89, has spoken to numerous relatives and put together a picture that does suggest a cycle of abuse within the Menendez family that could have started years earlier back in Cuba. Jose's older sisters Marta and Teresa describe how their mother Maria was obsessed with little Jose. In fact, they were largely raised by their dad, whilst Maria doted exclusively

on her baby boy. Uh oh, it's not uncommon though is it? Maria indulged and spoiled Jose to the point that he became a bully and he secured his spot as top dog in the family and the world. But Maria's behavior went beyond usual boy mom standards. According to Marta, Maria would fondle baby Jose and delightedly laugh when he got an erection saying that it was cute. Throughout Jose's childhood, their father would pop him in bed with Maria while he left to take the girls to school each morning. Marta and Teresa now suspect that their mother

may have been molesting Jose during this time. There were even rumours that Maria herself was molested by one of her uncles, which may have normalised incestuous behaviour. So if what Jose's sons were saying was true, and Jose was a horrible molester, perhaps Jose Menendez was continue a dark family legacy. The abuse of Lyle and Eric Menendez told to the courtroom in their own words would be of vital importance to the defense's strategy. Like normally when you're on trial for murder of this magnitude, it's probably in the defense's best interest to not let you take the stand.

But in this case, it's very different. They have to put Lyle and Eric on the stand because this is all about why they did it. And we've got to hear it from the horse's mouth. So the jury would have to believe that they were so afraid of their parents after years and years of systemic abuse that they genuinely believed that their only option available to them was to kill their parents. This was the only thing that was going to enable the Menendez brothers to receive a lesser conviction. So during his stuttering and emotional testimony, Eric barely choked out how his father had

raped him throughout his childhood, from the ages of 6 to 18. Eric testified that he came to identify four categories of abuse, calling them knees, nice sex, rough sex, and just sex. His harrowing account included details about how Jose would sometimes jab pins and tacks into his skin during forced oral sex, as well as inserting foreign objects into him. Eric described how Jose regularly threatened to kill him if he ever told anyone what was happening, which he genuinely believed his father was capable of. Although Lyle was characteristically more stoic in the stand, he also grew emotional as he spoke. Lyell's lawyer, Jill Lansing, urged the court to view both Jose and Kitty's deaths as unreasonable killings done in good faith.

According to her, it didn't have to make sense to the world. It didn't even have to make sense to the jurors. The only thing that mattered is that it made sense to Eric and Lyle. Lansing argued that after a lifetime of terror these children were frightened and felt threatened, after a lifetime of a world filled with uncertainty in which you survived by your ability to read cues, they read them wrong. The subtle codes that would mean little to outsiders, like Jose telling Eric to wait for him in his bedroom or his parents closing the door on their sons that night, were interpreted

by the brothers' hyper-vigilant victims of abuse as alarm bells. And their only choice was to fight back. And look, children who grew up in unstable circumstances are hyper vigilant. That is a thing that happens. And she's absolutely right. When you are raised in a situation where you are constantly unsafe, you get much better at reading people because you have to. And you don't even know you're doing it. It's a survival thing. So it's not that that I have a problem with. Anyway. She went on and begged the jury not to turn away from the pain. The boys felt that compelled them to take drastic action by returning a verdict of involuntary manslaughter. And I know we've fallen into this trap also, but she does refer to Eric and Lyle, who by the time

of trial were 23 and 25 as boys and even at the time of the killings they were 18 and 21. Yeah and look, I would almost think like if they were still 18 and 21, it's almost more possible, but 23 and 25, and also remember that this is in the 90s. It's a very different, like 23 and 25 was like, you're a fucking adult. Yeah. Like you're an adult now, technically, but in the 90s, they know I'm talking about adulting. No, you just are an adult. Yeah. Like that's it.

You know? So again, it's the like jumpers and the glasses and all of that it's all part of the I don't want to say manipulation that sounds very harsh but the presentation of... I don't think manipulation is harsh. Fine let's say it the manipulation of the jury in terms of how to present Lyle and Eric. Yeah I mean that's your job as a defensive. Of course and look if I, if I'm paying you, I want you doing that for me. But let's also not be blind to what's going on. Not that you guys are, you fucking know the deal.

So yes, in her commanding defense of Eric, Lesley Abramson whipped the courtroom into a frenzy, pushing the alleged sexual abuse that Eric had endured from Jose as a mitigating factor. Dubbed by journalist Robert Rand as, quote, five feet of frizzy blonde hair and outrage, Abramson put on a theatrical display where she slammed prosecutor Kuriyama's method of showing family photos to support the claims that the Menendez brothers were not abused. She said that this wasn't fair, because she couldn't show the jury any graphic photos

of what José had done to his sons because that had all been done in secret. Those traumatic pictures, according to Leslie, existed only in Eric's mind, and he would never be rid of them. The jury gasped, as Leslie even jabbed sharp tacks into childhood photos of Eric punctuating each stab with another shocking detail of what Jose had done to his little boy. Very theatrical. Well, totally. And that's what Pam thinks too. It was absolutely a very impressive performance, but a performance, which again is her job.

Totally. The American court system is much more razzle-dazzle than ours. And even 30 years later, prosecutor Pam still maintains that she is 100% sure that the Menendez brothers fabricated their defense. According to Pam, and later me, the Menendez brothers were making it all up. They had been coached on what to say by a lawyer with a famous track record of using the quote unquote abuse excuse. Very successfully. Absolutely. And look, people who believe the Menendez brothers are going to say, but look, psychiatrists believed them that they were telling the truth when they were recounting abuse. As we've talked about multiple times on the show, you can find an

expert who would say anything. Leslie Abrams is not going to find an expert who thinks that they're fucking lying. She's obviously going to keep using experts until she find ones that say, oh yeah, I think they're telling the truth. And also remember, Leslie Abramsman has had success with this abuse excuse before. And so I genuinely believe she is a very, very intelligent woman, that much is clear. And she also has had experience and will have done the research and talk to experts about what abused victims would come across, like how their stories would sound. We don't know this and I can't say it for sure, but she absolutely could have coached her into saying these things. Like we just don't know.

I think two things swing it for me. Firstly, that none of this is said until Leslie shows up. A woman who has a previous track record of successfully using this claim. Yes. Yes. track record of successfully using this claim. Yes. Yes. And secondly, that Lyle says that he was strong enough to stop it, but Eric wasn't. That for me, and am I saying it's impossible? Of course not. No, of course not. But I just think knowing what I know about Lyle Menendez and knowing what I know about Eric being the limpy gazelle. It doesn't sit right with me that if Jose is this terrifying, manipulative, abusive father that they're

terrified of and they think is going to kill them. But Lyle said please stop abusing me and he did. I don't buy it. I don't. And look, our play devil's advocate, even though I agree with you, is that people will say that yes, absolutely abusers who abuse children, they will also test the waters with which child will. And I don't mean this to sound like allow it to happen like it's the child's fault, but children have different personalities. Some children are not going to be a quote unquote risk to the abuser by making threats that they're going to expose them and things like that. So if it is true, giving Lyle a truckload of fucking benefit of the doubt, if we say it's true and he is like, I'm going to fucking tell

if you touch me again, you piece of shit to his dad. And we know he is the more belligerent of the two. He is the more forceful of the two, the more confident of the two. Could I believe that Jose had stopped if any of this is true because he thought I'll go after the limpy gazelle, which is what an abuser would do? I could believe it. But I also think it is down to Lyle's personality type that he's like, I'll say just enough happens so that I have the excuse. But I can't face saying that it was happening all the way up until he died, which is what Eric said. But Eric, you take that bullet because we need to say that it was still happening for there to be part of this like imperfect self-defense.

This is the thing, like, I mean, arguably the imperfect self-defense would have been stronger if Lyle has said it had been happening the whole time, but he can't quite bring himself to do it. In my opinion, I'm not saying that it has never happened or that it wasn't within the realms of possibility. I'm just saying I don't in this specific circumstance believe it to be true. And the thing that it comes back to is we just don't have the evidence. Yeah, exactly. And yeah, people look at the pictures of the family and some people say, look, it's just a normal family. But some people say, look where his hand is.

I've seen that, yeah. Look at where Jose's hand is. It's like on his Charles Crotch. And I'm like, or like, you know, putting his hand around Eric and Lyle in a weird way. It's a literal snapshot of a moment. I personally don't think that has evidence of anything one way or another. Like I am not sitting here saying that Jose Menendez did not abuse Eric and Lyle point blank period. Like I'm not saying no, I don't think I am either because we cannot, we cannot say that because we don't have evidence one way or the other. The question at the heart of this is if it did happen, is that enough of a defense for them having very, very clearly premeditated a cold blooded execution, which is how it looks because of the shotgun, because of the fake ID to go get it. And the reloading of the gun, which we're going to get to, like we're getting sidetracked, but like we will

come back to all this. But I just, you know. And Pam's got more points too. Allegedly, the Menendez brothers spent up to five hours a day with their legal team whilst behind bars in the LA County jail for three years. And prosecutor Pam has said even a bad actor would be able to put on a show with that much help. Yes. In his closing statements at trial, Lester Kuriyama suggested that Eric was gay, and his consensual sexual experiences with men had served as the inspiration for the allegations

he made against his father. Oh my god. Would you like another length of rope, Koryama? My god. Now most significantly, however, prosecutors argued that even if there was abuse in the Menendez home, it still wouldn't provide an adequate justification for murder. While they conceded that the boys had definitely experienced toxic parenting and psychological abuse from Jose in particular, they rebutted the defence's attempts to argue that this was a legitimate, provocative factor to diminish their responsibility. Reminding the jury, we don't execute child molesters in California. Prosecutor Pam argued that whatever Jose and Kitty had done as parents, they did not deserve

to be executed for it. Pam also called Lyle and Eric spoiled, vicious brats who slaughtered the same people who had supported them each and every time they screwed up, from cheating at school to burglarising homes around Calabasas. And Pam was especially emotive in her advocacy for Kitty, who she later described as being treated like a doormat by her husband and her sons before her death. Dr Jerome Oseale should have been a star witness for the prosecution, but as he and his mistress Judeleon Smith took the stand, their outlandish personal history quickly stole the show and muddied the waters with their own filthy laundry. Lesley Abramson put in a tour de force effort to discredit Oseel with all the dirt she could

dig up on him and the sordid affair and it's not a hard job. It's the easiest part of her day. Absolutely. And this included a document that Judelon had mocked up to look like a real, legit legal contract. The title of this document was the most official sex IOU and she had signed it herself and she's also featured on the signature dotted line the paw prints of her cats Shanti, Oz and Ishi Kitty. So yeah, former patients of Dr Ozeal came forward and told the press how he'd manipulated them, plied them with prescription drugs and asked them to call him Dr. Daddy. Needless to say, the prosecutions would be ace in the hole.

The boys' so-called confessions to Dr. Oseale about how they callously murdered their parents because they were sick of being told what to do, even calling themselves apparently sociopaths in these sessions where Dr. Ozeel went down like a lead balloon in court. It was a total shit show because this is the most important thing, the fact that at the time when they're talking to a therapist confessing to these murders, because that's what Eric does and then Lyle joins him, they say to him, to Dr. Ozeal, we did it because we don't want to be told what to do any fucking more. And apparently he says they even call themselves sociopaths. Like there is no mention of any abuse and I'm not saying that people are abused can't say that later and maybe there was too much shame at that point to

bring it up. But that was all disallowed. And then even when Ozeal does testify to it because they can't play the court recordings, but he's there as an expert saying it, he's totally discredited because of all of this fucking Dr. Daddy shit. It was a shit show. And both Ozeal and Judeleon came across like the least credible witnesses ever. And look, Judeleon is there to fucking drag Ozeal for all she's worth and like listen to this clip because she's there with the burns. having children. I would not want children that look like Dr. Ozeal. And I just feel like it's such an important part of being a lawyer is a witness selection.

I get it, but it is very common to just not call someone because they're a walking fucking mistrial. I know. And I'm sure that Pam was like, what the fuck do you do with Ozeal and Jude Alon because she needs him. He's the only one they've confessed to outside of Leslie Abramsom, and he's a fucking mess. In the early hours of December 4th, 2024, CEO Brian Thompson stepped out onto the streets of Midtown Manhattan. This assailant starts firing at him. And the suspect He has been identified as Luigi Nicholas Mangione

became one of the most divisive figures in modern criminal history. It was meant to sow terror. He's awoking the people to a true issue. Listen to Law and Crime's Luigi exclusively on Wondery Plus. You can join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Spotify, or Apple podcasts. In the early hours of December 4th, 2024, CEO Brian Thompson stepped out onto the streets of Midtown Manhattan. This assailant pulls out a weapon and starts firing at

him we're talking about the CEO of the biggest private health insurance corporation in the world. And the suspect he's been identified as Luigi Nicholas Mangione became one of the most divisive figures in modern criminal history was targeted premeditated and meant to sow terror. I'm Jesse Weber host of Luigi produced by law and crime and twist this is more than a true crime investigation we explore a uniquely American moment that could change the country

forever. The people to a true issue. I mean maybe this would be rich and powerful people to acknowledge the barbaric nature of our healthcare system. Realizing that Oseal was bombing real hard, prosecutors quickly pivoted away from the wreckage and focused on hammering home the facts of what they called a straightforward case. Roske to Pam insisted that while their focus was purely on the murders, T. Menendez were

talking about everything but the murders. A fair point. The defence were making a mockery of proceedings with showy legal tricks and misdirection techniques. After all, there was no hard evidence that Jose had sexually abused Eric and Lyle. Kuriyama followed suit, arguing that the defence team were playing a game to manipulate the jurors' sympathies, dressing up the defendants in their little sweaters, calling them kids, boys, children, etc. But what they actually were, according to Kuriyama, were grown men and cold-blooded killers. For her closing remarks, Leslie Abramson delivered a 58-minute speech that held the courtroom in starstruck awe. It was all over. All anyone could do now was wait while the separate juries, five women and seven men

for Lyle and six of each for Eric, deliberated. And one of the interesting things about the Menendez trial saga is how both juries were deeply split across gender lines. Every single woman on Lyle and Eric's juries believed that Eric and Lyle had been victims of sexual abuse. All of the women were convinced of it. None of the men believed her. And I get that. I believe that a lot of people are like, oh, that's so interesting. But I feel like I believe that. I think that maternal instinct in those women, especially looking at these two fully grown men kind of dress up to look like children, was this desire to protect them. So it makes sense.

Yeah. And I think, I mean, I think this would still happen now, but certainly in the early nineties, never did me any harm kind of attitude towards like, you're not putting your head through a wall, I think would have prevailed there also. I think in terms of absolutely the physical abuse, I think the men just straight out didn't even believe that the sexual abuse was real. Oh no, I understand. And this was obviously very important because like this sex split between the men and the women who believes what was vital because this alleged sexual abuse in particular was

at the heart of the case for the brothers guilt or innocence. So without a consensus, they were pretty fucked. In an already incredibly complex case where the jurors had to weight up the category of crime against each victim, first degree murder, second degree murder, voluntary manslaughter, the proceedings were plagued by endless debates about the men's motives and mental states. And Lyall's got one less lady. Yep. And it just was basically the fact that none of them could answer any of this with

any real certainty. The prosecution and the defense had thrown everything at the wall in the hopes that something would stick. But the result was a muddy, complicated mess. The jurors were required to reach a unanimous decision, but it quickly became very, very apparent that it was just not going to happen. And so on the 13th of January, 1994, after over three weeks of deliberations, Eric's jury declared that they were hopelessly deadlocked. Lyle's jury followed suit on the 28th of January. So over six months after the trial first began, Judge Stanley Weisberg had no verdicts and no choice.

He declared a mistrial by hung jury for both Menendez brothers. For now, justice, whatever that was, would have to wait. And I honestly think Leslie Abramson's probably like, that's a fucking good outcome for us. Yeah, I get to do it all over again. And she would. Eric and Lyle's second trial began almost two years later on October 11th 1995. And this time things went quite differently. The climate in LA's justice system had grown even spicier since O.J. Simpson's controversial acquittal just a week earlier. The LA justice system.

Yeah. With intense public backlash, there was a sense that the DA's office needed to prove again that they weren't slacking on high-profile criminals and that being a celebrity didn't matter. And Lyle and Eric were, by now, household names. So they were in the crosshairs, was the argument. Desperate to avoid another mistrial, Judge Weisberg set out a new set of rules. There would only be one jury for both men and the trial would not be televised. Thank you! Yeah. And jurors could not vote for manslaughter charges, only murders in this building.

Very nice. Thank you. to charge his only murders in this building. Finally, and most damningly, Weisberg ruled that for this trial, most of the family history would be deemed irrelevant and should not be heard in court. That's right, this time round the abuse excuse was out. Instead, evidence would only be allowed if it could be tangibly connected to the brother's sense of fear on the night of the killings itself. Leslie Abramson was fuming. The way she saw it, the state had, quote, eviscerated imperfect self-defense for domestic abuse victims. But they had the chance to prove that in front of, you know, a jury of their peers and they

weren't able to do it. So the judge has to do something to narrow the scope. Some people may not agree with that. Some people say it should have just been tried again with the one jury, et cetera. But I don't hate that decision. I think the focus is let's set aside whether you think Lyle and Eric were abused or not. The point is, what the judge is trying to get to is let's focus on the night in question. What is it that you are saying led Lyle and Eric to genuinely, wholeheartedly believe beyond a

reasonable doubt that they were going to be killed that night by their parents and that is why they took those shotguns out. Shot, shot, shot, reloaded, shot, shot, shot. Like that's the point. And you've got to show that real sense of fear in that moment. So despite Leslie Abramson's arguments about this, the judge would not budge, saying, This is not a trial to determine if Eric or Lyle was an abused person. Quite right. Lyle and Eric's defence team needed to adjust to their strategy somewhat and bounce back. But that would be quite tricky. Jill Lansing had stepped down and there were tensions between Leslie Abramson and her new co-councils who were uneasy with her bull in the Chinese shops aisle. I think they're like, please Leslie, please, just, just, I mean you know who she is, why did you work for her? And there was another problem.

The crux of their original defence was now banned in court by no-budge judge. At the first trial, the boys' emotional testimonies and Leslie Abramson's laured speeches painted a powerful picture of the abuse that went on for years in the Menendez home, albeit with no actual evidence, but who cares about that? It's like Chicago. Erroneous! Anyway, the only thing that mattered now was proving the Menendez brothers' state of mind on that night and on that night alone. The defense insisted that the brothers had acted in mind- that night and on that night alone. The defence insisted that the brothers had acted in mind-numbing adrenaline-pumping panic and fear of death

when they shot their parents. They were operating in a heightened fight-or-flight state of constant fear and the shutting of the family room doors was the last straw that made them believe they were about to be killed. Ugh. I literally, I feel like what really happened isn't an argument about like Jose Menendez being like, go upstairs, I'm going to come abuse you to Eric and then goes into the room, shuts the door and watches a film and eats ice cream with his wife. I feel like there was an argument that night. Oh, I agree.

I feel like there was a raging argument that night. And I think it was centered around the fact that Lyle was furious because I think he strongly suspected that his father had cut him out of the will, cut the both of them out of the will. And I think he uses that information to coerce Eric into going along with all of this and also all the pressure and the tiger parenting and the expectations and all of that. And I think Jose probably did say, you've made your choice. Now I make mine. I think it was, I've cut you out of the will make mine. I think it was, I've cut you out of the will. And I think he's like, I've had enough of this. I'm going to go

in there and your mom and I are going to watch a film. And he shuts the door because he's like, I've had enough of you, both of you. Maybe he even said, get out of the house, which I think could have been the trigger. It's like, fuck, he's telling us to get out of the house. Bang, bang, bang. But we don't know. I also, when I am Prime Minister of the world, fight or flight will not be allowed to be uttered in a court of law. Anyway. Leslie was undeterred. She batted off objections for bringing in family history, which she had been expressly told not to. And she reminded the court that Jose had told Eric to go to

his room, which certainly meant rape, according to Leslie. And new lead prosecutor David Conn rebutted that there was no such provocation from Kitty, even if it was true. The boys say it themselves. The brothers, the men, the fully grown men. So how was her murder justified? We'll get back to that later. Conn also questioned Abramson's claims about Eric's impaired psychological state, calling in our old friend, therapist Dr. Park Dietz.

Do you remember him? He comes in as a witness for the prosecution and, unluckily for the defence, Dietz comes across much more credibly than Oseale. Though, of course, if you've been doing your red-handed listening, you will remember Dr. Park Dietz and remember the rather shaky testimony that he provided at the trial of none other than Andrea Yates, see episode 109 for more. But he's basically the one that said that she had been inspired by watching an episode of like CSI or something.

Oh yeah. And then Andrea's appeals team look into it and no such episode was ever made and it certainly didn't air the week before she killed the kids. So, Park Deets comes across a lot more credible but you can make your mind up on that. So Dr. Deets testified that Eric's mental functioning at the time of the killings was very good with no disruption in his ability to use logical thought. As in the first trial, Leslie Abramson, on the other hand, called on Dr William Vickery to testify on Eric's traumatised mental state. But there

were issues with Vickery's credibility as he admitted on the stand that Leslie Abramson had pushed him to omit certain passages from his notes that didn't make the brothers look good at all. This was a massive blow to the defence and put Abramsom on trial herself. Peacock today for the duster tomorrow. Quite. Despite a shaky period where Abramsom's co-chairs tried to throw her under the bus by voting to have her removed, she did manage to cling on. But the damage was done and Con was on a roll. Focusing purely on whether there had been imminent danger to the brothers on the night in question,

had been rather than they thought there was, Con insisted that there was not. Jose and Kitty were unarmed. The Menendez brothers had chosen to go into the room where their parents were and murder them in cold blood. Yeah, they even admit that Jose and Kitty went into that room and shut the door. You went in there. Conn also slammed the defense's claims of sexual abuse as a motivating factor as being a total fabrication, the silliest story ever told in a courtroom. He accused Leslie Abramson of serving up a

trauma stew and declared that the Menendez brothers' case would go down in history as a perfect example of the abuse excuse. So we've heard this phrase a lot during this case, but what does it actually mean? Well, in 1994, Alan Dershowitz, the same Alan Dershowitz who defended Jeffrey Epstein, published a book with this title, lamenting how within the American legal system, more and more offenders seem to be claiming psychological abuse as a mitigating factor in their crimes. Unsurprisingly the Menendez brothers lived rent-free in Dershowitz's head, and David Kohn argued that Folile and Eric, trauma was a calculated strategy rather than their lived

reality. And even if they had gone through this hardship, it had been greatly exaggerated according to Kohn by their lawyers in a bid to get them off. And in his rather sassy closing statements, Kahn told jurors they had to quote, Weigh the horror of the crime versus too much tennis and not enough hugs. The Menendez brothers' defence was further impacted by newly unearthed evidence that indicated Lyle had written to friends asking them to lie for him at the first trial. Don't put it in writing you fucking knob. You've got a phone anyway.

As a result, Lyle was barred from calling his own witnesses and was limited in giving his own testimony at the second trial. Things were not looking good for Team Menendez. And before we go on, I can't help but reference the Sexton's once again. Those children who were exposed to the level of abuse that the Menendez brothers are claiming that at least Eric was exposed to, they called them the flatliners. They had the Sexton stare. You looked at them and you were like, that is an abused child. I don't see it. No. I'm not saying it didn't happen. I'm not saying it's possible. I'm just saying that why is there such a comparison between, I mean,

I suppose Pixie killed baby, so that's different. But like, when it came to the sexting kids, apart from Willie, but like most of them who did horrible, unspeakable things, they're not really given this pass. And I just would invite you to think about why that is. On the 21st of March, 1996, four days after deliberation, which is astonishingly short, coming off the back of a hung jury, the joint jury found Erick and Lyle Menendez guilty of first degree murder and conspiracy to commit murder as well. They also voted for two special circumstances, lying in wait and multiple murders. Almost seven years after the deaths of Jose and Kitty Menendez, the acts had finally fallen on Lyle and Eric. But whether the men would escape with their lives was still yet to be decided. Due to

the severity of the convictions, there were only two options in the penalty phase of the second trial. Life without parole or death. David Cohn pushed for capital punishment, arguing that Eric and Lyle, quote, chose death on Friday when they went shopping for shotguns, chose death on Saturday when they reloaded their shotguns with lethal ammunition, and chose death on Sunday when they shot their parents to death. The question now was what would the jury choose? And in the end they voted for life. Eric and Lyle were both sentenced to life imprisonment without the possibility for parole.

Robert Rand pipes up again, our journalist friend from earlier, he turns out to be one of the Menendez brothers' biggest supporters. He spoke to five of the jurors after the trial concluded. And he found that while none of the jurors believed that the brothers were in fear for their lives on the night in question, which led to the guilty verdict, several said that they would have voted differently if they'd heard more of the family history during the guilt phase. But that's exactly why they weren't allowed to hear it. Yeah. Because if they had been allowed to hear more about the family history, the alleged family history, even if we heard about stuff that was provable like the

aggressive toxic parenting, that I hundred percent believe is true and you know I could at best say I'm on the fence about the sexual abuse. I don't fucking know. But that's the point of why it wasn't allowed to be heard because the crux of the question was, do you believe they were in active fear for their lives on the night in question? And there was nothing stopping the defense team proving that one way or another in the second trial? Commenting on what the jurors had to say, Leslie Abramson said that she and her team were only allowed to put in a Reader's Digest version of the defense with catastrophic consequences. Vital evidence that may have swayed the jurors was kept out of that second trial and that

influenced the verdict. But as Saru said, that's the point. And come on, they by this point have been in the headlines for years. As much as we're like, oh, the jury can't know anything. They were fucking heard about what happened at the first trial. And I think that is the reason that they don't sentence them to death. I think that is the reason because they only have life or death and I think that's why they sentence them to life. The DA's office had got their conviction. Hooray. And I know this is awful but it is also quite funny. The DA's office of Los Angeles, California referred to the retrial of Eric and Lyle Menendez. They referred to it as Menendez 2, the wrath of God. It's very good. It's very good. And if I believed a miscarriage of justice had happened here,

I would not think it's funny. But I'm like, I don't. So. Okay. But like the LAPD also called the investigation into Tupac and Biggie operation wrap it up. Like it's, they have form. They do have form. And so Lyle and Eric began the next chapter of their lives behind bars. Lyle was taken to California's Mule Creek State Prison and Eric was sent to Pleasant Valley State Prison, which Muir Creek sounds f***ing horrible compared to Pleasant Valley. I mean yeah. What's your favorite prison name?

I've got two. You've got two? Yeah. I'm going to go for a Russian one that I pitch for an upcoming short. Black Dolphin. Yeah, that's a good one. It's a good one. Scary. Both my favorites are British ones.

Oh, hit me. Wormwood Scrubs. Yeah, Wormwood Scrubs is good.. It's a good one. Scary. Both my favorites are British ones. Oh, hit me. Wormwood Scrubs. Oh yeah, Wormwood Scrubs is good. And Strange Ways. Oh. Strange Ways is really good. That is good. That is good. For the longest time, I thought Wormwood Scrubs was a fake name. I didn't think it was a real prison, but it is a real prison.

Sure is. Yeah. So yeah, Leslie Abramson obviously had something to say about all this. She slammed the choice to keep the brothers apart in two separate prisons as exceedingly cruel. They're not children being taken into foster care. They are two grown men being sentenced for the murders of their parents. So yeah, apparently a little heartbreak on the men's part for being separated, which like sure. So over time, the brothers exhausted all of their rights to appeal.

Although one 2005 bid saw a judge declare the pressure from the Rodney King and O.J. Simpson failures, having led to, quote, collusion between the LA County District Attorney's Office and Judge Weisberg, who is obviously the one who really narrowed the scope of what was going to be allowed in the second trial. And this judge said that that had been used to secure the conviction in 1995, but this appeal was again retracted. Eventually the Menendez brothers resigned themselves to the fact that they'd be spending the rest of their lives in prison. Both got married.

Wow, they actually got married twice. First to a woman named Anna Erickson in 1996, not long after being convicted, and then to a woman named Rebecca Sneed in 2003. Sneed announced in November 2024, so not that long ago, that she and Lyle had been separated for some time, but that she would quote, never stop fighting for justice for the brothers. Eric married Tammy Sackerman in 1999 and became stepdad to her young daughter, Talia, who now goes by the name Talia Menendez and actually calls Eric dad and is unsurprisingly a passionate advocate for his release on social media. The brothers were finally reunited in April 2018 at the Richard J. Jonovan Correctional Facility.

And they're closer than ever. Eric has said that those horrible events bonded us in a way that will never be broken. And Lyle added, we're not twins, but we felt like it. For Lyle, no river of tears or regret can change that he is the kid that killed his parents. He has to accept that and keep on living. Behind bars, he and Eric have made positive contributions to their inmate community. Lyle is head of the Donovan Inmate Programme, as he was at Mule Creek for 15 years. Eric has set up a charitable hospice program and they both work with fellow male

sexual abuse survivors in prison. This brings us on to an important point in this story. Back in the 90s, absolutely this is true, male victims of sexual abuse were not listened to or taken seriously. And the Menendez brothers, whether they are telling the truth or not, are living proof of that. Totally. They were mocked by the media. TV panelists scoffed that they didn't buy it, with sketch shows like SNL creating skits making fun of the boys' tearful displays in court.

Their relatives, including Kitty's sister Joan Vandermolen, tried to appeal to TV networks to stop the coverage, but to no avail. It was symptomatic of a culture in which there was a staggering lack of empathy for male survivors, and where the very idea of sexual abuse, as something that could even happen to a man, was often dismissed. At the first trial, Leslie Abramson asked the jurors to confront their own unconscious bias by asking them this. Would you feel any differently about what happened to my client if my client's name was Erica Menendez?

Would it make any difference to you if he was a girl? Because if it would, it shouldn't. Because men are human and boys are human and men and women suffer and boys and girls suffer and it is no different." Now look, I'm going to be very clear because I'm sure there's people with lots of feelings out there. We should absolutely, 100% certainly listen to anyone who says they have been a victim of abuse. Man, woman, boy, girl, doesn't matter. In this case though, the brothers went ahead and killed their parents.

And I don't think that the abuse is enough of a defense, which we'll come back to. But what we're talking about here is the issue of people mocking the Menendez brothers claims in the first place. I think it's fine that there were people saying they didn't believe them, but the mocking of them, whether the Menendez brothers really went through this or not, in such a high profile case would have definitely made it much harder for boys and men who were actually definitely victims of sexual abuse to come forward. And I'm sure it pushed that back in the US by decades.

And even now, according to psychologist Sarah Crome, fewer than one in ten male-on-male rapes are reported, and I believe that. There's a gradual shift towards more awareness and acceptance over the past 20 years but you know slow. In 2012 the FBI revised its definition of rape to include penetration no matter how slight of the vagina or anus with any body part or object or oral penetration by a sex organ of another person without the consent of the victim. Doesn't cover everything all forms of sexual abuse that anyone can experience man or woman but it's getting there.

So perhaps this societal shift is what sparked this recent resurgence of interest in this particular case. And as we can all imagine, that has been led online. Hashtags like Free The Menendez Brothers and Menendez Justice have absolutely flooded TikTok, prompting thousands of videos from online sleuths into this very retro case. And because it's the internet and because we aren't allowed to have nice things, obviously things got very weird very quickly. One bizarre trend for example involves Menendez fashion inspo, like how they're dressed in court and how they're dressed before their arrest and all that kind of thing, with people

copying their preppy courtroom looks alongside generally like thirsting for Eric and Lyle themselves, of course. Now buzz around this- That's pushed me over the edge. I'm sorry. It's nearly done, guys. Bear with me. Now Buzz Around this case reached an absolute fever pitch when Ryan Murphy's TV series,

Monsters, Delilah, and Eric Menendez' story hit Netflix in September 2024, with Google Trends indicating that searches for the brothers hit an all-time high after its release. I was not going to watch it because Ryan Murphy is no stranger to controversy. He obviously made the first installment of the monster anthology or whatever they're calling it with the Jeffrey Dahmer one. I tried to watch that just to have an opinion on it, not because I particularly wanted to. And I couldn't, I couldn't watch it. It was really dark. It was horrible. And yeah, like obviously the Dharma story is, but it was just too like disgusting for me. I was not going to watch this, but I did. And I'll be honest, I enjoyed

it. I would say I wish it hadn't been based on a real story because then as a standalone series about two brothers, did they kill their parents? Were they abused or not? Like blah blah blah. It's great. I understand obviously why family members despise it and have been, you know, scandalized by it. I totally get that. But I did watch it. And obviously there's been a lot of backlash for it because it kind of with the Dharma one and with this one is for like that over sexualizing of the killers. Because yes, a lot of the monsters Menendez story is like Eric and Lyle, the actors who play them walking around with their shirts off, they're totally ripped. They're like, you know, very attractive, all of that kind of thing.

And like, of course people were pissed off by that. There was also some weirdness with the story that is explored in part, but we haven't gone into it because again, there's no evidence of it. There's a very infamous shower scene in which Ryan Murphy is basically saying that there was a homoerotic relationship between Lyle and Eric. Ryan. Yes. But you know what? I'm going to let you in on a little secret. A negative comment is

still a comment, it's still engagement. You're giving Ryan what he wants, you are. That's basically what he said. And he basically goes along to say something along the lines of like, because Eric and Lyle obviously say how awful it is that he made the show and he's like, they should be fucking thanking me. Because I mean, he's not wrong. Because it's what absolutely pulled like we've always been aware of this case, obviously, fucking in true crime. And you guys probably always have but to the wider world to the fucking tick tock generation,

Ryan Murphy show is what brought it back into the headlines and people screaming for justice. Even though like his show doesn't say they were definitely abused. He kind of uses that technique of like showing it from all different perspectives. So he's never marrying himself to one specific perspective. So yeah, people are talking about it again, which without the series would anyone have really given a shit about this retrial? I don't think so. And Prosecutor Pam is less than impressed with Netflix and Ryan Murphy. Apparently, I love this so much, rolling her eyes to a Netflix documentary crew, she said,

why don't we just have a poll? According to Pam, the current wave of online social justice from people who weren't there and likely weren't even born during the original trials is what actually makes a mockery of real justice. I love that. Shall we just have a poll? And like, I am imagining this person that is like, Oh my God, it's so disgusting that you would sexualize them. Hashtag like fit check of my Menendez jumper. I get it.

Look in the mirror. I get it. And I'm also before anybody else says it aware that we do spend our lives talking about cases and having opinions on them. So is it grossly unfair for us to say that these people can't have an opinion and think that the Menendez brothers were sexually abused and therefore should be released? Sure, you can think whatever you want, but like doesn't mean there's any evidence for it. And even if there is, it doesn't mean that that's acceptable. That is not an acceptable reason to murder your parents. Call the police.

Yeah. And as I have said time and again, in my opinion, a demi-scourge upon true crime is the obsession with wrongful convictions. It has led many a content creator down the garden path and led to a few demises and I just implore you to consider that sometimes they do do it. Not every case that you've ever heard of is a wrongful conviction, it just isn't. So be very careful. And also, the reason you are being marketed wrongful convictions is because corporations

and publishing houses deem it clean true crime. So they're making a mug out of you. Don't let them have it. Even Leslie Abramson has said that no amount of media or teenagers petitions will alter the fate of her clients. Only the courts can do that and the courts have ruled. Like, I disagree with her slightly. I think I do as well. Because as we have seen time and time again, particularly in the US, but also here in the UK, let's take Lucy Letbe.

If everybody just ignores it and is like, oh, well, I can't do anything. I won't sign this petition. I won't raise concerns about it. Then yes, those things would fail. And in the US positions like the DA, it's a political position. It's voted for, it's elected. So yes, absolutely. Raising the alarm over cases where you genuinely think there was a miscarriage or a mistrial or something, that's not going to fall on deaf ears. They will have some impact. So I do disagree with her slightly there.

I think she's saying, I ain't going for round three. I'm tired. I completely agree with you. I completely agree. So the Menendez brothers, where are we now? They have used up all of their appeals and from a purely legal perspective, it seemed for a long time as though they were out of options. But like we hinted at, at the start of the episode last week, that could all be changing. In May, 2023, Lyle and Eric's lawyers filed a habeas corpus petition arguing that the brothers' convictions are unconstitutional and should be vacated. And it brings to light new evidence that could potentially

overturn the original court findings. This includes a newly discovered letter that Eric wrote to his cousin Andy Cano back in 1988, where he discussed the sexual abuse from his father. And also a bombshell accusation that Jose Menendez raped another minor back in the 80s, former teen pop star Roy Rossello. So look again, that could all well be true. Absolutely could be true. Rosello was a member of a Puerto Rican pop sensation, Mwendo, which was a manufactured teeny bopper band featuring a rotating line-up of children aged between 11 and 15. Jose Menendez

played a big role in signing the group to RCA Records while he worked there. At 13, Rossello alleges that he was taken by the group's manager, who has since been exposed as a massive nonce to the Menendez home. José poured him a full glass of wine, which was probably laced with something, and all Rossello remembers is growing tired and heavy and then being dragged up to a bedroom. The next thing he remembered was waking up in a New York City hotel, and he being dragged up to a bedroom. The next thing he remembered was waking up in a New York City hotel and he was in pain for a week. Eric said that he was upset but not shocked by these revelations. He'd always suspected that more victims of his father are out there. And that claim,

if true, could be huge for the Menendez brothers because it provides a separate and credible witness to support their allegations of Jose's pedophilia. Meanwhile another legal process is underway for the brothers, a re-sentencing review. This is totally separate from the habeas corpus and will be looked at by another Supreme Court judge. It aims to review how well Lyle and Eric have been rehabilitated in prison and whether it's still necessary for them to be behind bars. Former LA District Attorney George Gaskin backed this bid in October 2024, recommending a lower penalty that would make them eligible for immediate parole. But the current DA, Nathan Hoffman, ran his election campaign on a tougher stance against

crime so it's uncertain whether he will be quite as on board. Now Kitty's now 92-year-old sister, Joan Randemolen, said in November 2024 that no child should have to endure what Eric and Lyle lived through and she just wants them to come home. But her little brother, 90-year-old Milton Anderson, won't be bringing out a welcome wagon for his nephews. According to him, their cold-blooded actions shattered their family and left a trail of guilt that has persisted for decades.

So these resentencing hearings, if successful, the brothers could walk free. We will certainly be waiting in anticipation and we'll be sure to keep you posted with any updates. So what do we think? Lots of things to consider when it comes to how culpable the Menendez brothers are. So try not to rush to any judgments. We're going to leave you with this quote from New York Times columnist Anna Quindlen and she said in 1993, the question has become then all rich kids or tormented victims, which are the Menendez brothers? Few seem to consider a third possibility, maybe both. Perhaps the jurors will consider things that we overlook when

we're turning public tragedy into social mythology. Sometimes bad things happen to bad people. That it is possible to be both victim and victimiser. Absolutely. And look, were they abused? Maybe. We can never know for sure if Eric and Lyle were truly sexually abused by Jose and Kitty or not. I take absolutely that there was a toxic family environment, all of that. But let's just say that they were also sexually abused by both of their parents as they claim. That makes the killings of Jose and Kitty Menendez at best a revenge killing because there is nothing that proves that they genuinely feared for their lives on the night they murdered them. And even this is what drives me fucking nuts about this stuff. Yeah. Even if they

had, they still murdered them. Yeah. There's just no evidence they were scared for their lives that night. You know, Jose and Kitty were not armed. They said themselves they went into another room and closed the door. They went into that room and would surely have had time to see that their parents weren't armed and were sat on the sofa where Jose's body is found, eating ice cream and watching a movie. But they continued to shoot them. Even after they shot their parents, they went outside and reloaded their shotguns, came back inside the house to finish off their mother, who was by this point, remember, already brutally injured and posing zero threat. So this argument that they believe that their lives were endangered that night is where again, this is hard evidence

for me that that falls down. Kitty is all but done. She's on the floor crawling away from her son. They go outside, reload the gun, come back in and finish her off. They were adults at the time as well. They didn't need to be in that house, right? Yes, you could argue that Eric was only 18, sure, but they didn't need to be in that house with their allegedly abusive parents. They had the education and the means to make it on their own outside of there, but they didn't leave, they stayed. Now yes, of course, absolutely, before anybody says this, of course, abuse can lead to creating

like toxic codependent relationships and insular families. Maybe if it was true, that's why they didn't feel like they could leave. Let's also take that at face value. But looking at the social lives of the men, I find that quite hard to believe because they lived. Yes, they were, you know, pressured by their father into achieving and doing all this, but they also had the freedom to come and go. They had social lives, they had friends, they had girlfriends, they lived a life outside of the home. They weren't like the Sexton kids, for example, who were locked up in the house and not allowed to socialize with other people or anything like that. Their parents actually

pushed them to succeed. If anything, of course, too hard. But again, it doesn't really fit what they're claiming their childhood was like for me with the sexual abuse angle and the secrecy angle. Again, it could be true. So at best, if the sexual abuse is real, then it is still for me, a cold blooded revenge killing that didn't need to happen. They could have, and again, I'm not saying this is easy for people who are victims of sexual abuse, they could have reported their parents to the police, for example, or they could have just left.

And again, I'm not saying those things are easy, but even if the abuse was real, the system cannot condone revenge murders, because then where does it end? Exactly. If the courts had said, yes, these two men were sexually abused by their parents, and that's why they killed them, and that's why we're letting them go, that sets a very dangerous precedent, doesn't it? Now let's say the sexual abuse didn't happen and Leslie Abramsman came in and planted that idea in Eric's mind and he starts to tell the story cause she coaches him, it is clear, it is straightforward. It's a calculated cold blooded double homicide for financial gain.

And the trigger point, I think was Jose cutting them out of the will and Lyle having a very, very strong inclination that that is what has happened. And the fact that Lyle and Eric, this is the thing that really, really nails it for me. Lyle and Eric went outside to reload their guns before coming back inside and finishing their mother Kitty off is what convinces me the most. Because other than the fact that they tore through their parents' money after the murders, the fact is Kitty had to die. Kitty had to die for them to get their hands on the money. Yeah.

They couldn't just risk that she was wounded. She's probably fatally wounded, but we don't know, but we're free now. Jose's dead. They had to kill Kitty because if she lived, she would have inherited all the money and she would have known what they'd done. So that's why they have to kill her. And then this whole thing that they tell Ozeal, like, oh, it was a mercy killing. Like, I don't know. That's just where I stand. And obviously people are going to have different opinions about this case, but- No, I think I'm with you for all of those reasons, but I've got a curve ball for you. Hit me.

I still think 30 years is enough. Oh, I understand. I don't believe in life without parole. I think it's entirely pointless. So I do think they have done their time. I agree. Even if I believe the version of events that paints them in the worst, most cold blooded, money hungry light, I still think 30 years is enough.

I agree. I agree. Look, I am not sitting here saying saying do not free Eric and Lauman. No, me either. I'm saying, yes, they were very young when they did this. 1821, I believe they've served their time. My issue is that sets a dangerous precedent. That then gives people an excuse to say whatever they want and kill whoever they want and say that they were abused or whatever and that's the reason.

Yeah. But they've served their time. If they were abused or whatever and that's the reason. But they've served their time. If they were here in the UK, they'd be free by now. And I am not going to sign a petition to say keep them in prison. No. But please let's not say that these murders were justified. Even if the sexual abuse was real, it is at best a revenge killing. Yes. So yeah. Which is also illegal. It is. So that's it guys. That's

what we're going to end it. That is the very, very long story of Eric, Lyle, Jose and Kitty Menendez and whatever the fuck went on in that house. And make up your own mind. Yes. You know? Absolutely. And you don't have to believe us. You don't have to go along with us, but that's what we think. And we are done. We are. Thank you for listening. And you don't have to believe us, you don't have to go along with us, but that's what we think. And we are done. We are. Thank you for listening, thank you for watching. It's our first ever fully recorded set of episodes. So if you like it, let us know. If you don't, keep it to yourself. And we will see you next week for something else. Bye. In the early hours of December 4th, 2024, CEO Brian Thompson stepped out onto the streets of Midtown Manhattan. This assailant pulls out a weapon and starts firing at him.

We're talking about the CEO of the biggest private health insurance corporation in the world. And the suspect... He has been identified as Luigi Nicholas Mangione. ...became one of the most divisive figures in modern criminal history. I was targeted, premeditated, and meant to sow terror. I'm Jesse Weber, host Luigi produced by law and crime and twist this is more than a true crime investigation we explore a uniquely American moment that could change the country forever

is awoken the people to a true issue. I mean maybe this would lead rich and powerful people to acknowledge the barbaric nature of our health care system. Listen to law and crimes's Luigi exclusively on Wondery+. You can join Wondery+, in the Wondery app, Spotify or Apple podcasts.