RedHanded - Episode 45 - The Virgin Killer & The Angry World of the 'Incel'

Episode Date: May 9, 2018

Rage fuelled by violent misogyny; the defining trait of the ‘incel’, or so-called ‘involuntary celibate’. It's rage like this, coupled with psychopathy, that led to the recent Toronto attack and the Isla Vista Massacre in 2014. Join Hannah and Suruthi as they reveal what they discovered when they went creeping into the grimy depths of the ‘manosphere’ to understand this rage, the radicalisation and the ramifications of the hate group known as ‘incels’. Audio mastered by Conrad Hughes   See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to Red Handed early and ad-free. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. They say Hollywood is where dreams are made. A seductive city where many flock to get rich, be adored, and capture America's heart. But when the spotlight turns off, fame, fortune, and lives can disappear in an instant. Follow Hollywood and Crime, The Cotton Club Murder on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi guys, quick note before we jump into the case this week.

Thank you so much. You are amazing. We've been asking you to vote for the Listener's Choice for the British Podcast Awards that are coming up. And we're in the top 20. We've beaten nearly 1,300 other podcasts and we cannot believe it. Absolutely. It's all down to you. We really didn't think this would go anywhere. But now, oh my God, we're in the top 20. There's a week left to vote.

Please, please, the link is in the description for this episode as usual please give it a click give us a vote and a couple of people are asking on social media you don't have to be british wherever you are whoever you are if you like what we do give us a vote on with the show i'm saruti i'm hannah and welcome toed. So today we're talking about the so-called incel killers and we've seen it all over the news recently in the wake of the Toronto attack and you'll probably remember hearing all about it back in 2014 after the spree killing committed by super loser Elliot Roger. But what the hell is an incel? Well it seems to be an odd subculture of men who blame women and society for their inability to find love, happiness and sex.

Now, I've spent quite a few hours this weekend on incel.me. And let's just say it's something. I've learned so many new words. It's unbelievable. Before we delve into this newly acquired incel glossary we have. Just to clarify, we got these definitions directly from what seems to be the premier site for incels right now, incels.me. And if you want to ruin your day, I suggest that you check it out. It will ruin your day, though. It's eye-opening, but then you also feel like you need to scrub your eyes with steel wool.

So an incel. Let's start with that. It is, and this is described on this forum, created by them, for them, as an involuntary celibate. So it is someone who is not in a relationship, nor has had sex for a significant amount of time, despite numerous attempts. Define significant amount of time. It's ever. Okay. Well, maybe not. they call a true cell someone who has never ever had sex an incel is someone who has either never had sex or hasn't had sex in a very long time it is important to note because this is where i went wrong originally when we were looking at this just thinking well you know what everyone's just get over sex like why is it such a driver but

actually this isn't just about sex at all being an incel isn't just about sex at all. Being an incel isn't just about sex. And the media definitely does portray them as being guys who just can't get laid. And you also see people on the internet saying stuff like, well, why don't they just get a prostitute? And yes, these guys can't get laid, but it is also so much more than that. And I've also seen people on the internet sympathizing with these men because yes, loneliness is a terrible thing. And I've also seen people on the internet sympathizing with these men because, yes, loneliness is a terrible thing. And therefore, it would only be natural at first to feel some pity, but hold up because their movement, their existence, or whatever you want to call it, is not about being lonely.

It's about blaming women for their loneliness. And that is really important. And further clarification that we got from the handy intro to Insultum section on the Incel.me forum. This is a quote. Insultum has no relation with violence, misogyny or illegal activities of any kind. But that's just not true. It's bollocks.

Because you might be interested to know that before Incel.me popped up, the virtual stomping ground for these people was Reddit. Until, get this, Reddit banned them. That's right, friends. Reddit banned them. And just in case you don't know what Reddit is, it's the internet's largest forum. And basically anyone can start a subreddit on there, which is a forum specific to a certain topic. And it can be about literally anything just to put the fact that these incels were banned from reddit into perspective there are currently subreddits on the following topics which are open and available right now for you to check out if you are so inclined and the categories are sex with dogs kid gore and sexy abortions

that's my favorite sexy abortions i just the thing is about reddit like there is a subreddit for everything absolutely everything if you've thought of it if you've formed the thought there's a subreddit for it but incels they are banned sexy abortions fine incels not fine because it was found that these groups were using Reddit to incite violence against women and advocate for mass rape. So good job, Reddit. You called it right on that one, I think. Definitely. And like I said, I've spent a number of hours on incel.me and wow, the majority of the posts that I read were indeed filled with women hate. Frankly, it was terrifying because I can honestly say I've

just not encountered such blatant hatred for women before. It's remarkable the things that these men are saying. And these are some very real posts that we read. Men who pay taxes should be given wives and girlfriends because they pay for women to exist. Except when I hear it, when I'm reading it, it's through clenched teeth and a shaking fist and rage-filled voice. This is another one. I've heard so many women say they should go on sex strike, claiming that would show those awful pig men to respect us. But if all women stopped having sex with men, how long would it take for rape to be legalized i am not here for your entertainment like this is what we'll see throughout the whole thing is they genuinely don't see women as anything other than blow up dolls basically yeah exactly and i also find it very

hard to believe the man who wrote that has been near enough to a woman to overhear what she's saying i heard this woman say, shut the fuck up. Anyway. As I was walking past her in the supermarket. And also just what's really just so bizarre about this forum, if you go check it out, is they sit on there and theorize and ponder on life and existence. And they immerse themselves in these kind of pseudo-intellectual philosophical musings about the state of the world. And they talk about things like mate selection in the age of Tinder. And they post the results of their dating site experiments because yes, they conduct dating site

experiments where they change their photo, they pretend to be women, they pretend to be hot guys, and then they see how many people talk to them then and they just use this to further fuel their mentality of victimization and honest to god they write up these experiments that they do in a way they imagine a doctoral thesis might look it's so deeply deeply tragic and they also do this hilarious thing where they repost each other's postings and quote them as high IQ post. What as in this is an intelligent post? Yeah. So, you know, say example, the one that you said all men who pay taxes should be given a wife or a girlfriend. They will repost that. It'd be like, good job, buddy. You're so smart. And quote, high IQ post I mean Jesus Christ there we've got so much lingo for

you guys just this really is unbelievable and this really goes a long way to explain how they view women which is why it's so important that we talk about it before we go into the cases that we're covering today I think because incel subculture if that's what we're going to call it is so bizarre we really need to understand it before we can even approach the crime that happened here because it's so intricate and i also think out there at the moment there's a bit of myth busting to do here there's lots of talk about it on the internet in articles the ways it's being reported that i was reading and i was like that's not true from what i've picked up so let's go through. So these men refer to women as femoids, which is short for female humanoid or Stacey's or Becky's. I'm always very nervous when I hear

a man refer to women as female. That always sets me off. I'm like, you probably have some views I won't agree with. Femoid is the ultimate, of course. It really is just totally removing us from the human species. And they genuinely, genuinely believe that women are barely human and merely sexual objects. A femoid sounds like a robot. It sounds like one of the sex robots in Futurama. And that's what I think they would prefer than anyone with agency. And they also refer to other men as chads and alphas or beaters or cucks a chad is a good-looking promiscuous guy who gets a lot of sex he's also obviously an alpha and alpha

is a man who treats women like shit but he's so hot that us stupid women will still sleep with him anyway and a beater is your classic internet nice guy. He's such a bloody nice guy, but women won't sleep with him because he's not hot enough. And feminism has apparently ruined everything for him. Sob, sob, sob. And a cuck, this is my favorite. A cuck is a guy who gets sex, isn't particularly, he's not a chad hot, but he gets sex because he is sold out to the female feminist anti-man agenda to get it so this is a guy who likes women and treats them with respect and so is successful in love and in relationships so therefore he's a cuck this whole thing of like categorization of people and so i'm not attractive enough therefore my life is terrible that's what being a woman is like like oh is it

really difficult having unrealistic body ideals forced upon you by society is that really fucking hard so a cuck is this man who's so desperate for acceptance approval and affection from women that this desperation has led to the compromise of his beliefs and values and the desecration of his dignity and self-worth and his inability to stand up for himself and what he deserves as a human. I feel like I'm a cuck fan. Yeah. Oh my God. Where are the cucks? I want a cuck. Now reading all of these posts and descriptions, it's incredibly easy to see that these men hate

women. They hate minorities because, oh yeah, just in case the women hating wasn't enough, this forum is filled with race hate they hate the world they hate themselves most importantly i think and they look at everything through this intense lens of hate it's the opposite of rose-tinted glasses i think and it's worth repeating that yes they may be lonely but these incels hate women and their existence is not about being lonely it's about blaming women for their loneliness so what what's going on here? We can discuss it. We can try to figure out what's going on with these men, why this subculture exists. Personally, I think these men holding the same bigoted, misogynistic, hate-filled worldview

50 years ago would still have found themselves partners. Women back then just had fewer options and so they had to be with violent, hateful, angry men. But now for the first time in history, we see a situation where increasingly, at least in the West we can say, women don't have to be with men who are awful out of some sort of economic need. So now these men can't get what they almost certainly would have had a few decades ago, and they hate all women for it. The incel forum is also filled with messages about how these men are demanding, get this, this is fascinating, a state-implemented girlfriend or wife program. They actually call for this. It's incredible. They feel entitled to a partner.

They basically think a woman should be given to them. So let's consider this. It seems hilarious, right? That a woman should be given to a man like an object to be handed out. Don't get me wrong, this still definitely happens in other parts of the world. And when the situation there starts to change, which it certainly will, some men there who have these damaged psyches that we see with these incels will also too feel the rage and injustice that the incels here are screaming about. The idea of a state implemented wife program is of course deeply nightmarish. But even if you consider what these men are asking for, who would want to be with someone who wasn't with them consensually?

So basically what these men want are sex slaves and I don't feel like we need to remind our listeners that women are human beings with our own agency and the idea that we can or should be forced into relationships with men can only seem like a solid idea to a person who thinks women are subhuman or femoids. Now maybe some incels do think it's all a joke and it's just venting and ranting these forums are a place to go where they can post lewd memes and make jokes about women and chads and get support for their issues and find some level of escape from their no doubt intense social isolation but like i said it's much more like they are being radicalized whatever this idea started out as when an ideology has a body count it is no joke anymore

and you do see people not really taking incel seriously because they're like oh they're just virgins who live with their mum but like clearly they're dangerous people and you scoffing at them because they're virgins and live with their mum that's you buying into toxic masculinity that's not you bringing anything constructed to this argument it's interesting to me why these violent misogynists tell us that their motivation is violent misogyny and why we don't believe them why do we look for the other reasons because seriously after the toronto attack we checked out the forum and here are just a few choice cuts that we read honestly reading all the comments on the news articles and facebook about us incels only justifies what the van killer did and here's another one i daydream so fucking much

about a world where i am a chad and i have a perfect girlfriend and shit it's insane but when i pretend to be someone i'll never be it it only pushes me closer to going Elliot Roger. One guy is talking about Elliot Roger's videos, which we will discuss, and he says, I will upload them to everywhere possible. People need to know. People need to see. Elliot might have failed in his plan, but in the long run, he was successful and he had the balls to do it, to do what most of us will never be able to do.

He actually fought back. And then in all capitals, it says respect. If ISIS had a forum like this, it would be shut down instantly. But it's because no one takes them seriously. No one's looking, no one's checking. It's just out there. It's brushed off as mere sexism. This isn't sexism. This is hatred of women. This is violent misogyny. They are inciting violence. And this is completely different. As Hannah said, people don't take them seriously.

And it would be really easy to laugh at incels. And don't get me wrong, we definitely will be during this episode. But we can't turn them into like comedic characters in society that we simply laugh at. Not when someone identifying as one takes a van and plows into a group of innocent people, killing 10. Because on the 23rd of April in Toronto, 25-year-old Alec Manassian did just this. And Manassian is now facing 10 counts of first-degree murder and 15 counts of attempted murder. And his victims, they were just ordinary people waiting to watch a local tennis match. And they were predominantly women minutes before he

rammed his van into those people he uploaded the following post to facebook private recruit manassian infantry 00010 wishing to speak with sergeant 4chan please c23249161 the incel rebellion has already begun we will overthrow all the Chads and Stacys. All hail the supreme gentleman, Elliot Roger. The supreme gentleman. Are you joking? That's what he called himself. I hate this so much.

But, I mean, it's important to say here that there was lots of controversy over this post because many believed it at the time and lots and lots of incels on incels.me were claiming that it was a hoax and it's not totally unfounded that they were calling it a hoax lots of journalists and lots of people who study the kind of manosphere were suspicious of this because of the reference to 4chan now 4chan is another notorious online forum that i'd say is the sort of virtual home of even more extreme thoughts than Reddit or subreddits are. Oh, it definitely is. Do you not remember? It must have been in 2012, 2013, where there was that Justin Bieber fan thing where they're all like cutting their wrists for Justin Bieber. That was like a thing. And that was started by someone on 4chan who thought it would be funny to get teenage girls to cut themselves. Like 4chan is so much worse than Reddit.

It is. 4chan is like the home of trolls. Yeah. That's what it is. And this is why they didn't believe the post immediately, because the culture of trolling and hacking and hoaxing really is so pervasive in that 4chan community. And the kind of idea of messages being posted after mass attacks from people who are on 4chan is not rare. It was soon revealed that the weird numbers posted

in the Facebook group are the same as Alex's service number with the Canadian military. Manassian was in the Canadian armed forces between August 23rd and October the 25th 2017 and did just 16 days of recruit training before he voluntarily withdrew. Former classmates have described Manassian as a socially awkward person who often twitched or fidgeted. To get into the military, Manassian would have passed a process that involves online applications, aptitude testing, a medical and an interview to determine an applicant's fitness for military service. Potential recruits are required to write the Canadian forces aptitude test and apparently the military saw no red flags

during Manassian's recruitment but Manassian struggled during his short stint in the regular force basic training his performance was judged to be below average in training and he quit and we'll have to wait to see what else comes out of the case against Manassian as it did only happen last month but another mass killer the one Manassian, as it did only happen last month. But another mass killer, the one Manassian praises in that infamous Facebook post, and the one who was hailed as the patron saint of incels, Elliot Rodger, aka the virgin killer, is one we can delve much more deeply into. On May 23rd, 2014, a 22-year-old Elliot Rodger, armed with three guns and a car, went on a killing spree in the town of Isla Vista. He murdered six people, injured 13, Elliot Rodger was a seriously interesting character.

He uploaded a load of videos of himself to YouTube. Most of them, including the one he posted on the day of his killing rampage, or as he called it, his day of retribution, are still up. And he also wrote a very, very, very detailed 114-page biographical manifesto called My Twisted World by Elliot Rodger. Maybe you want to go give it a read. The opening of this shitshow of a manifesto goes something like this. Humanity. All of my suffering has been at the hands of humanity, especially women.

This tragedy did not have to happen. This is the story of how I, Elliot Rodger, came to be. My entire dark life has been full of sadness, anger and hatred. And I'll tell this magnificent story. I'll disclose every single detail of my life. Who does he think he is? Dread Pirate Roberts? Like, I don't understand the level of entitlement.

How old is he when he's writing this? Between the ages of 20 and 22. No one knows shit between 20 and 22. No one can write a manifesto in their early 20s. But he's deeply, deeply narcissistic. Yeah, evidently. So, clearly, he's a very disturbed individual with serious narcissism but these videos and his manifesto do give us a pretty unique view into how he went from just

weird teenager to mass murderer and throughout our discussion of elliot rogers we will be using his own words either from the biography or from his videos ell Elliot Rodger was born in London in 1991 but moved to LA when he was six and he came from a moneyed family because his dad, get this, was the assistant director on The Hunger Games. So it's not like he's wanting for much. He was incredibly privileged in all of his videos. He's wearing designer clothes and driving around in a fucking BMW. He's a student. That's outrageous. So after he moves to LA, his parents divorced when he was seven years old. And this was a devastating issue for Elliot Rodger. He writes about how this destroyed his life. And yes,

divorce is definitely difficult for kids who have to deal with it. But divorced parents is well within the normal range of things that happen but he writes about them divorcing like it completely ruined his entire future i honestly feel like he's just looking for anything to blame and looking for anyone to blame as well that's the whole thing with him except himself like it can't possibly be anything he could have done wrong he externalizes everything that is wrong with his life that oh how could anyone in my situation function properly? As a kid, and then as a teenager, he totally failed to engage with the world. Those who knew him said that he wouldn't make eye contact and barely ever spoke.

In his manifesto, he makes it seem like he was always approaching people and women and being rejected. But this is part of the fantasy. And do you remember at the beginning when we gave the definition of what an incel is and it's the lack of sex despite attempts they're not making attempts that is so key they think attempts is their existence yes exactly because they're entitled to sex they're entitled to women you don't believe in ghosts? I get it. Lots of people don't. I didn't either, until I came face-to-face with them. Ever since that moment, hauntings, spirits, and the unexplained have consumed my entire life. I'm Nadine Bailey. I've been a ghost tour guide for the past 20 years. I've taken people along with me into the shadows,

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And from his manifesto, we learn that, quote, finding out about sex is one of the things that truly ruined my entire life. Sex, the word fills me with hate. Oh, for God's sake. He's such a dickhead. But it's not about sex. And we're going to keep saying this because it's true. It's about women.

Elliot goes on to say, quote, it's an injustice, a crime. You ignore me and go after these obnoxious men when I am the supreme gentleman. He's talking to women here, all women. The narcissism is so obvious. He is the one true gentleman, but the women he encounters are too shallow and stupid to realize this. and Elliot was totally comfortable with his thoughts and his ideas he never tried to keep any of this a secret he's writing everything down he's making these videos and in the videos he's so theatrical in one video he's walking around a park by himself videoing the whole time saying I'm just contemplating about my life and how unfair it's been lately. Well, how unfair it's been since I hit puberty, actually. There's so much sighing in the video.

He is such a fucking emo wanker. That's what he is. Oh my God, just buy a Hawthorne Heights album, cry a bit and get over it. Like, I just, I have no sympathy at all. Like, everyone goes through an emo phase. That's fine. It shouldn't last till your 20s. And it definitely shouldn't lead to you fucking buying guns, a car, and then plowing into people.

Absolutely. I don't think that Elliot Rodger could separate between reality and fantasy. He was obsessed with online gaming and these forums. It's so dangerous for individuals like him to become immersed in these online worlds. It's just a group of people perpetuating each other's grievances. And if you want to get worse about what you're angry about, find other angry people because then it will go on forever. The other really creepy thing about Elliot Rodgers' videos, he wouldn't just film himself.

He'd also film couples he'd see. And young couples spark such rage in him there's one video where he sat at the beach and he sees this couple kissing he starts filming them saying quote i can only imagine the heavenly things they'll do together when they get home tonight it's not fair life's not fair it's torture for me to watch but i have to stop filming people what is wrong with you exactly maybe if you didn't fucking hang out in bushes secretly filming other people you might meet someone but then don't they say don't go looking for someone just do what you love and you'll meet the right person for you so maybe they're he's not gonna find a woman filming in the bushes well you never know because actually the original term incel, involuntary celibate, was actually coined by a woman.

I read about this. Yeah. Maybe she's hanging out in that bush, though I'm guessing an incel woman probably wouldn't be hanging out in bushes filming people. Isn't that so classic that something started by a woman and men take it and turn it into something completely different? And she was like, this is not what I meant. I just wanted to have sex. Yeah, so he's not meeting anybody in those bushes. And he's pretty pissed. And he's stalking all these couples, filming them.

And it's fucking terrifying. Like, seriously, absolutely terrifying. And with this, and this is a bit more incel lingo to throw at you guys. It's totally this black pill mentality. What does black pill mentality mean? Well, it's basically a really nihilistic belief that they can't change themselves. That therapy, going to the gym, working on themselves, anything like that, none of that will make a difference.

They are who they are and society is what it is and women are what they are. It's hopeless. It's absolutely hopeless. So in 2012, Elliot Rodger decides to get his revenge and he starts his plans meticulously. He buys a gun just before Christmas that year, a Glock 34 semi-automatic pistol. He writes in his manifesto that he now felt a new sense of power and so he starts stockpiling ammunition.

But you can see he's on the path to attack for years. This was not a sudden decision and during the time before his killing spree he continues with his videos and they continue to show such narcissistic behavior and such a clear personality disorder. Here are just a couple of extracts from these videos that he posted. I desire girls. I'm sexually attracted to girls. But girls are not sexually attracted to me. There's a major problem with that. Major problem. That's a problem that I intend to rectify. I, in all my magnificence and power, I will not let this fly.

It's an injustice that needs to be dealt with. I don't understand you girls. It's like your sexual attraction is flawed. It's perverted. You should be attracted to guys like me. Beautiful, magnificent guys. He cannot cope with being rejected. He blames everyone else. He thinks he's not being given the recognition he deserves and he's not where he thinks he should be in life

and he blames others for it. It's an injustice that needs to be dealt with and like many mass killers, he's what's known as an injustice collector. In another one of his enlightening videos, he says, quote, I see so many hot women and girls with ignorant, obnoxious douchebags. When you hit puberty, your life either becomes heaven on earth or hell. Depends on how many girls like you. And no girls liked me and I hate them all for it. It's this weird thing of like putting women on a pedestal and then hating them for it and sex is everything. Well it's like the friend zone. Yeah the internet nice guy friend zone stop friend zoning me. I hate it. The idea of the friend zone is so problematic because you're saying that I am only interested in one

kind of relationship with a woman and that is a sexual one and if she isn't giving that to me it's because she's put me in a separate section not because she's not attracted to me but because a choice she has mentally made about me that is out of my control and that's why I'm not fucking her yeah fuck you they basically think the whole friend zone mentality is like so I'm good enough I'm smart enough I'm funny enough I'm fun enough for her to be friends with but I'm not hot enough for her to fuck that's what they're saying in that and it's so frustrating with these incels and with guys who think like that because these guys want stacy's and a stacy to them is a hot blonde woman with huge boobs who's never worked a day in her life that's how they describe these women and becky's are plain women with flat chest who think too much about their careers etc etc

they want stacy's they don't want becky's i bet they want virgin stacy's too this is the hilarious thing is that they talk so much about how they're not attractive enough and society's against them but their only interest in those women is going after very attractive women so it's so problematic because it's like i'm okay to be really shallow and only want this type of woman. But when she only wants that type of man, she's a slut. This is strictly speaking within this group of men. This is not. Yeah, let's hammer that home.

Like we're not saying. Oh my God. We love men. This is not anti-man. We are not anti-men. We are not about that. Fucking hell. No way.

I think with Elliot, he really genuinely thought that when he went to uni that his fortunes would change with women. But once at uni, I think he realised it just wasn't going to because unless you're going to be a totally different person, Elliot, it's not going to change. In one video, he rages over the fact that he's 22 years old, still a virgin and never even kissed a girl. It's so creepy as well because he coldly, staring straight into the camera, goes on to say in another video, I will destroy all women because I can never have them. I will make them suffer for rejecting me. Jesus Christ. And what's important to also know is that these videos weren't being publicly made available at this point. He was just filming them for himself. Obviously, if these were on YouTube,

you would have hoped that somebody would have flagged them he's just creating his little it's almost like he thinks he's creating like a historical document of meaning with this manifesto in all his videos again just how narcissistic he is yeah he thinks that after he's killed himself people are going to find them and be like oh my god he was a genius and we never realized we never appreciated him in his own time yeah shut up so then you know he's obviously getting nowhere with the women that he meets at uni so he steps up his plan and in the spring of 2013 he buys another handgun and this time he buys himself a sig sower p226 a more expensive and more powerful gun than the glock that he had bought two years ago. And writing in his diary, he puts, who's the alpha male now, bitches?

And he also becomes more and more addicted to these forums. They amplify and cement his worldview and they act as an echo chamber where the thoughts of all of those involved become louder and more extreme. And he was engaging now with this kind of hate in these forums on a daily basis it became so addictive and i can see how it would if all of those people in those forums are saying things that completely fit with your world view and he said about these forums that while everybody in there shared the same hatred he had for women unlike him they were too cowardly to act on it elliot Rodger decides not long before his killing

spree that he would quote give the female gender one last chance to give me the pleasures I deserve from them. Again just highlighting the idea that women owe him sex he's entitled to it and that women exist purely for their reproductive and sexual capabilities. So to Paul, he goes to a party and he gets absolutely smashed and gets in a fight with some girls at this party. And he gets injured in this fight and he goes home. A neighbor tries to help him. And this guy doesn't even know Elliot Roger, but he stays with him for hours because he's so emotional. And he said that Elliot could barely speak the whole time. Until, that is, he said to him, to this neighbour, I'm going to kill all those motherfuckers and then kill myself. In his manifesto, he writes after this incident,

I actually gave them all one last chance to accept me, to make me not hate them, but they just devastatingly threw it back in my face. Too many chances. It's time for retribution in april 2014 he uploads his videos to youtube and on wednesday april 30th 2014 the police were contacted by a mental health worker who said she'd been contacted by a friend of elliot rogers this is three weeks before the attack and the police go to his apartment to check up on him and he convinces them that he's fine they don't even search his house and i think this is so key

like they do not see him as a dangerous person because if they had searched his house they would have found the manifesto and they would have found the guns they instead left saying what a pleasant and lovely guy elliot was just a bit shy maybe and I think this lends itself to the fact that he was a psychopath he was manipulative he could have put on a mask and spoke to them in a way that would have convinced them that it was fine yeah his dad was rich he was buying him a BMW and designer clothes for uni he wasn't going to let him stay in some shit house he was probably in a nice part of town like there's so many things that come together for why this wasn't taken seriously in elliot rogers manifesto he writes ever since i was 17 i dreamed of becoming powerful and inflicting suffering on all those who have wronged me and on friday may

23rd 2014 he posts his last video stating i will arm myself with deadly weapons and wage a war on all women and the men they are attracted to, and I will slaughter them like the animals they are. You deserve to be annihilated, and I'll give that to you. You never showed me any mercy, and I won't show you any. And at 9.18pm on the 23rd of May, he emailed his manifesto to his parents and a psychologist he'd been seeing. But before he started his killing spree on the streets of Isla Vista, Elliot Rodger killed his housemates.

He lived with two international students, James Hong and David Wang. Both men were 20 and both were studying computer science. Sadly, their friend George Chen, who was 19, also a student, was staying over that night. Elliot stabbed them all to death as they slept. And he wrote in his manifesto that night. Elliot stabbed them all to death as they slept and he wrote in his manifesto that he wanted to kill them so he could secure the apartment as his own personal killing and torture chamber.

And he wrote, on the day before my day of retribution, I will kill as many people as I can by luring them into my apartment through some form of trickery. Oh, what a fucking bellend. That's exactly it. Like, I can't think of a better word to describe him

there's just a bellend that's it like anyone's gonna come to that place with him and he's gonna lure them into his house he can't even go to a party without making a dick out of himself like he's not gonna be able to like tempt people in like the child catcher like what was he gonna do like lay a trail of chocolate to his door so So anyway, he fails. He doesn't get anyone else into his flat. So, flat, I bet it was a house. So Elliot starts what he calls his war on women and he heads to the Alpha Psi sorority house. He wants to kill the women who live there because apparently they represented exactly what he hated. At 9.25pm, with three semi-automatic weapons and hundreds of rounds of ammunition, he bangs on the door of the clubhouse.

Nobody answers. But then he sees three women, Veronica Weiss, 19, Katie Cooper, 21, and Bianca de Coke. He shoots all of them. Veronica and Katie die on the spot, but Bianca, who was hit five times, somehow lives. Elliot then heads to a place called the Ivy Deli. He arrives at 9.30pm and just starts shooting into the shop. In there, he kills 20-year-old student Christopher Michaels Martinez.

And after this, again, he calmly drives away. It's almost like a video game at this point. Psychologists say that these types of killer are usually motivated by revenge and they think that this rampage is going to make them feel better, but it doesn't. So the motivation now just becomes going down, getting away from the isolation he feels and taking as many people with him as he can. He's now killed six people, three in his apartment, one person in the deli and the two women outside the sorority. And now he's in spree mode he shifts

his plan and now he starts using his car as a weapon he drives around with three guns firing at random he opens fire on some students outside a 7-eleven shop the police are luckily there and fire back they hit him in the hip but he drives away and he's already planned for this writing in his manifesto when the police come i will speed, ramming and shooting as many people as I can until I find a suitable place to finally end my life. These guys want to cause mayhem and die so they can be martyred and also so they don't have to face the consequences. Alec Manassian, the Toronto killer last month, tried to do the same, but luckily, the arresting officer was able to bring him in alive. Roger, despite the guns in his car, doesn't get very far. Twelve minutes after he started shooting, he crashes into some parked cars and he shot himself.

The next morning, the police find his housemates and the manifesto. All the while, during his attack, his parents, who had received and read his manifesto, had been racing from LA to Isla Vista to stop him. but there was no stopping him after this attack and the Toronto attack the media erupts and we look for reasons why don't we listen to why he said he did it and I think that's the thing that's key with this is like this was all written down he'd planned it it was there no one looked for it and in so many of the articles news reports and just generally everything I've watched about this case and that of Alec Manassian, they talk about incels as if the hatred they have for women, the misogyny they revel in, is some sort of wild deviation from anything else.

Sadly, it definitely isn't. And their sympathizers baffle me as if we empowered women on birth control. And yep, on the incels.me forum, they fucking hate the idea that we have birth control and yep on the incels.me forum they fucking hate the idea that we have birth control somehow we drive a like anti-male agenda which is destroying their lives no this is about men with crippled ill-formed psyches whose sense of masculinity is firmly rooted in the oppression of women and others and yes the fight for equality has challenged the status quo of the supremacy of white men but on a daily basis across the, women are killed for the exact same reasons as these incels use as their rationale. Without the incels.me forum and all of that.

The difference with incels is the radicalization we see. Their ability to spread their hate through these forums. And these forums, they absolutely serve to channel that rage. They compound their beliefs and incite violence. And while they are not kind of like an organized actual terror group, this is very much the way terrorism itself is heading in the modern world anyway. Like, look at how Al-Qaeda used to be. It was very centralized. It was taking orders from a head person. But look at ISIS now. It's very much the birth and the growth of the idea of a leaderless

revolution. And I have no interest, we have no interest in curtailing free speech. But these forums are not a good thing because they worship mass murderers in there. They call for mass rape, sexual slavery, and absolutely for what they call female genocide. David Futrell, a man who studied the manosphere, that part of the internet, and the world, I suppose, which includes pickup artists, incels, and men's rights activists, he put it best after the Toronto attacks. He said, misogyny kills. Literally, we need to shut it down.

But how? And I think that's really poignant because the patriarchy creates incels as well it doesn't just oppress women and i think even look at things like the me too movement everything that is coming out now about what has happened and continues to happen in the past things like sexual harassment in the workplace everything comes from that idea of entitlement i don't know i don't care i haven't asked if this woman wants it but i want it and i going to take it. And that's what these men want to be able to do, but they're not able to. And so the rage comes out in this way. And it's horrifying. And we're not denying that, like, obviously,

Elliot Roger and Alec Manassian had underlying mental health issues. I know. And I did look into this. And I remember when we first read this, why are they not calling this a terror attack he was motivated by a clear ideology as far as I could tell and he's gone out and killed people to cause terror that is terrorism and I looked into this and in a very real sense in the real world this is terrorism but in a legal sense it's actually apparently really really difficult to prove terrorism in a legal sense because it has has to be clear, unequivocally obvious that your actions were based on political or ideological motivations. There was a recent attack a few years ago where the guy had an ISIS flag in his car and he still wasn't charged with terrorism

because the threshold for proof on terrorism cases is so, so high. So colloquially, in a real sense, in a social sense, this is absolutely terrorism. They are saying it. They're saying, we are doing this to make you see, to fight back. Those are the words that these incels are using in this forum. But to prove that Alec Manassian acted out of that direct ideology, there's a very high burden of proof. But there's no denying it, that this was terrorism. All right, that's it. you can all go and take a very hot shower now and scrub it off and then come back and tell us what you think this is such an interesting subculture anyone had any dealings with any people like this tell us it's we really would

love to know thanks for listening guys and double thank you to our patreon supporters this week well we've got loads this week we've got amber consul carla reeves ellen dixon venus suresh matt just matt jenna morrison naomi violet shan chan and ledin henrietta and josh emma morrison jenna morrison maggie james and georgina middleton a really special thank you to maggie james for her very very generous donation yeah absolutely we're blown away blown away yeah we messaged maggie like you've made a terrible mistake please go check so please follow us on twitter and on instagram if you're not already we are at red handed the pod and you can join our lovely facebook discussion group and we will see you next week bye bye I'm Jake Warren, and in our first season of Finding, I set out on a very personal quest to find the woman who saved my mum's life.

You can listen to Finding Natasha right now exclusively on Wondery+. In season two, I found myself caught up in a new journey to help someone I've never even met. But a couple of years ago, I came across a social media post by a person named Loti. It read in part, three years ago today that I attempted to jump off this bridge, but this wasn't my time to go. A gentleman named Andy saved my life. I still haven't found him. This is a story that I came across purely by chance, but it instantly moved me and it's taken me to a place where I've had to consider

some deeper issues around mental health. This is season two of Finding, and this time, if all goes to plan, we'll be finding Andy. You can listen to Finding Andy and Finding Natasha exclusively and ad-free on Wondery+. Join Wondery in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify.

They say Hollywood is where dreams are made, a seductive city where many flock to get rich, be adored, and capture America's heart. But when the spotlight turns off, fame, fortune, and lives can disappear in an instant. When TV producer Roy Radin was found dead in a canyon near L.A. in 1983, there were many questions surrounding his death. The last person seen with him was Lainey Jacobs,

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