RedHanded - Episode 5 - Bible John

Episode Date: July 26, 2017

A real mystery for you, as we head to Scotland for the case of Bible John, an unknown serial killer who raped and murdered 3 women between 1968-1969. Apart from their physical similarities and the MO there was one alarming point to note, all the women were menstruating on the nights they were attacked. How did he know? What did it have to do with anything? And crucially, who was he? We have some theories...   See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to Red Handed early and ad-free. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. They say Hollywood is where dreams are made. A seductive city where many flock to get rich, be adored, and capture America's heart. But when the spotlight turns off, fame, fortune, and lives can disappear in an instant. Follow Hollywood and Crime, The Cotton Club Murder on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Hannah.

I'm Sruti. And this is Red Hood. We've got episode five. Bible John is what we're covering today, which is, it's a a mystery it's never been solved and we haven't had a mystery yet have we no i mean enfield they're not really but also we think we know what this is anyway or who this is spoilers oh my god straight in straight in with the spoilers three women were murdered in the east end of Glasgow between 1968 and 1969. Their

killer has never been convicted and the circumstances in which the bodies were found is it's beyond a shadow of a doubt just one person because it's so so specific. There are a lot of theories flying around about who this mysterious killer could be. Some of them are better than others. Some of them are feasible and some of them are just like complete lazy bullshit. The investigation has been described as the biggest investigation

in Scotland's legal history. The investigation is still going on. It's just taken a bit of a different form. 60 years. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh my God. I wouldn't be too proud about saying it's Scotland's biggest...

Maybe they mean like longest and least conclusive. Longest and most unsuccessful investigation ever. All three victims were seen leaving the Barrylands Ballroom in Glasgow with a man and they were never seen alive again. And the really interesting thing about these murders is all three women were on their periods. It's more than a coincidence, isn't it? That's what he was looking for.

So yeah, all three met their killer, who sniffed out their periods at the Barrowlands Ballroom, which is still going, and it was famous at the time for its over 25 nights, which people called Grabber Granny, which was gross. I find that incredibly offensive, as a 27-year-old woman. You're over the hill now. You're a granny.

I find that very, very offensive. You and me both. It's where you would go if you wanted to pick up a married woman. So married women would go there without their husbands to pick up boy toys. Toy boys. Boy toys? Yeah, toy boys. Oh, yeah.

Good. Bible John's first victim was Patricia Docker. On the 23rd of February 1968, the naked body of a 25-year-old nurse was found by a man on his way to work, yards from where she lived. She had been raped and strangled, left completely naked as her clothes and handbag had been taken. The previous night, she had told her parents

that she was going out dancing at a nearby club called The Majestic. But either she went straight to the Barrowlands instead or decided to go there towards the end of her evening. This significantly slowed down the police investigation as they had been focusing their search on the wrong dancehall. So they'd been focusing on The Majestic instead of the Barrowlands, which is where she actually went missing from. And at this point, unfortunately,

the police were not treating this murder as anything particularly out of the ordinary. What the hell kind of situation is going on up there? That 25-year-old woman found raped, strangled, and naked because all her things have been taken, including her clothes, yards from her house, was being treated as nothing out of the ordinary. I don't want to be particularly rude about Glasgow. It's a rough end of town. Yeah, that sounds like it. But then again, on Friday the 15th of August 1969, mother of three, Jemima MacDonald, 32, also went for a night out at the Barrowland Ballroom.

So she's way over there. She's like a great granny. Oh my god, 100%. So the next day, Jemima's sister, Margaret, heard rumours in the area that young children were seen leaving an old tenement building talking about the body. It was very unlike Jemima to leave her children, so by Monday morning, Margaret was beside herself So Margaret, the sister, just decides,

my sister didn't come home, that's weird, because she's got kids. And so she hears people talking about a dead body in an old tenement building just decides, my sister didn't come home, that's weird because she's got kids. And so she hears people talking about a dead body in an old tenement building and goes and checks that out on Monday instead of just calling the police. Yeah, that seems to be the situation, which is just a bizarre choice, I think. Yeah, and if this woman, Jemima, lived in the local area, wouldn't other people have seen the body and been like, oh, that's Jemima? I mean, maybe she was in pretty poor shape i don't know and also it's an abandoned building no one goes in there and

i feel like that's just the kids it's the kids yeah the kids go and play and who was that kid who um who murdered that other kid mary bell yes my mate yeah my mate my old mate witnesses said they had seen jemima leaving the barrel lands at midnight with a tall slim young man with red hair police conducted door-to-door inquiries at the time and found one woman who remembered hearing screams coming from the same building where jemima was found but she said she was unsure of the time so obviously they can't use that as like proper evidence that's no good to anyone and now we come to the third victim, which is really the one that made the police sit up and take notice of what was going on. Her name was Helen Puttick.

She was a 29-year-old mother of two who was married to John Puttick, who was in the army. They had just come back from a posting in Germany. They'd literally just moved back to Scotland. On the 31st of October 1969... Halloween. It is Halloween. Yeah. Fuck. Yes. So on Halloween 1969, Helen told her husband that she was going out dancing with her sister Jean. He was not keen on this at all, presumably because he knew she was going to where married women went to pick up people who weren't their husbands. So he eventually sort of gave in and said, you can go as long as you promise me you take a taxi home gave us some money and so she goes out with her sister Jean and they get to the Barrowlands and they meet two men

called John one of whom would become known as Castle Milk John because that's all they really knew about him that just he was from that area and the other one who is the infamous Bible John so Jean is actually the only person she's the most reliable because she spent an evening with this guy. Bible John told Jean that his name was either John Templeton or John Sempleton. Are you fucking kidding? I wish I was. I can immediately think of 10 names, fake surnames, Sempleton. So it's like Templeton Schmempleton and he's like a good Schmempleton. I think poor Jeannie might have been a little bit worse for wear i think she was probably she probably can't really remember i mean she's literally that just sounds like the most like sarcastic comment to give a policeman like

interviewing or a police officer interviewing her so what was his name uh john templeton schmempelton and they were just like right so it's either John Templeton or it's John Sempleton or Schmempleton exactly good that makes sense so Castle McJohn goes home on his own he must have been the wingman in this situation I think a murder wingman everyone needs one of those you're kind of like my murder wingman and I'm like yours

oh thanks yeah that's nice that's just what we should have named our podcast murder wingman let's rebrand let's just stop this Let's go back Guys we're going to need a couple of weeks off Just to change the name So Helen and Jean

Get in a taxi with John Sempleton Templeton Parker Bowles The conversation that Jean remembers from the taxi Is what would lead the media to calling this killer Bible John Which is a fantastic name. Such a good one. I mean, immediately, as soon as we saw this, I was like, we have to do

this case. It's because there are so many shit ones. There are terrible ones. I feel like the Suffolk Strangle is quite a good one. That's a good one. The Trashbag Killer. I mean, literally, in this country, that would be the Binbag Killer. Like, that's a fucking terrible name. But the story behind it is so good you know this one it's like the guy who was the radiographer the doctor in the exorcist in the film the exorcist the guy who plays the doctor during them filming of that movie a legitimate full-time serial killer while they were filming as well it's not while he's just like touching that little girl reagan and being like you know possessed not possessed let's figure it out he was out killing killing

dudes in his spare time and putting them in trash bags and being called the trash bag killer, aka the bin bag killer. The bum bag killer. That's quite a good one. The bum bag killer. In America, the fanny pack killer, which is just the worst. Fanny means something completely different here. Back to Bible John. When I saw the name Bible John, I knew like a little bit about it. I knew it was Scotland. I knew it was women. But I really was expecting some sort of like religious maniac. Bible versus scrawled on walls and human shit.

So what he says in the taxi is that he doesn't drink at Hogmanay. What's Hogmanay? Hogmanay is New Year. It's a really big celebration in Scotland. Apparently, what people do is in the day They clean their house And then go round There's a street party In Edinburgh

It's like a big deal Fireworks That's where they do That song right Auld Lang Syne Yep So yes He doesn't drink

Kutney as he prays Good And that his father Referred to dance halls As dens of iniquity I don't think That's particularly Dens

Fucking hell man It's quite a good Turn of phrase though Den of iniquity It is I mean yes If you want to say things like that I feel like the crap down my road is absolutely a den of iniquity It's not like

And I shall smite thee with my No but then also I think The whole like him murdering women who are on their periods We come into it later about like Kind of the religious significance of Menstruation, women These crazy people like these crazy crazy religious nuts only need one thing and then it gets like religious delusions, murder, all linked.

Yeah, I feel like they're stuff. Yeah, so they weren't terrifying but they were enough for Jean. She was sufficiently creeped out. She was. She got out of the taxi. She did. So Jean got out of the taxi first, leaving Helen with the stranger, the stranger being Bible John.

Now the cab drops the pair off yards away from Helen's house at 1am in the morning. Later in a police interview, the taxi driver would admit that he had taken a wrong turn and Helen was so frustrated by this. She had told him that she'll just jump out where they were and the man got out with her. He paid for the taxi and ran after her. The driver said that he then saw the man grab Helen and her resisting him, but that he had thought it was just a lover's quarrel and so he had just driven off.

I mean, I know, I can tell by the look you're giving me that you're judging this taxi driver. I am. But I kind of also think, like, how many scenarios have you been in where you've witnessed something weird? I would probably very rarely intervene in a situation like that because what are you going to do?

And if it is just a lover's quarrel, you're just, like, a massive dick. Yeah, dick yeah i know they've been drinking it's one in the morning he pays for the taxi they both get out she they've been in the taxi together and maybe there was no red flags in there he was just a guy they've been chatting to maybe if in the taxi there'd been something more obvious and sinister about it but i don't know i don't really blame the guy it's sad she ends up being dead but i mean he probably feels bad enough about it. But I don't know, I don't really blame the guy. It's sad. We'll let you off. She ends up being dead. I mean, he probably feels bad enough about it. Exactly.

He doesn't need my help. He doesn't need you ruining his good name on this podcast. And so her husband, Helen, was worried that Helen hadn't come home, but eventually he fell asleep at 2am in the morning. So this is an hour after her taxi

had stopped by their house. And a dog walker, it's always a dog walker always, found Helen at 6am lying in the court next to her house. She was fully clothed the contents of her missing handbag were strewn around her. She had been strangled with her own tights

there were marks on her face and body indicating that there had been a struggle. There was also a deep bite mark on her leg. That makes me feel so sick just like someone taking a bite out of... It must have, like, broken skin. Oh, just like biting human flesh, like, off a dead body that you've just strangled. Like, sick fuck.

A quick round-up, though, of the similarities between the three women who had all been murdered. All three of them, as we touched upon, were menstruating at the time of their murders. They had all met their killers at the Barrowlands. They were all strangled with their own tights. They were all raped. They were all beaten. Their handbags were missing and they were left out in the open

in various states of undress. Such a specific MO. It is so specific. So it's like absolutely this has to be the same person. Yeah. He's taking the same trophies. He's doing the same things. And to the same type of women.

I mean Bundy liked to kill women who looked like his ex-girlfriend who had dark brown hair parted down the centre and this guy was like if you're on your period you're done. I'm gonna murder you. They needed a more discreet solution I think because I think this leads us quite nicely onto like well how did he actually know they were on their periods? For a while

I was reasonably convinced that maybe he just had the world's shittest superpower and he could just sort of slip them out. If I've been afflicted with this shit superpower, I'm going to start murdering you. Exactly. Yeah, if you trigger it. However, I sort of calmed down a bit.

It was a bit more logical. So in the olden times, in the 60s, they didn't have the sort of like adhesive pads that you just sort of stick in your pants today. But they had like, they all wore pants. But they all knew that things could, like, be sticky. So why weren't they just, like, making it? I don't think sanitary products were, like, at the top of anyone's list in the late 60s.

And they are now. Hashtag tampon tax. Scotland's doing much better than us. They are doing much better than us. Yeah, for those of you who don't know, Scotland have just passed a thing where they are giving free sanitary products to people who can't afford them. And here we're still taxing tampons and sanitary products as luxury items. There's nothing that makes me feel more luxuriated. Is that a word? No. In luxury. Luxurious. There you go. Than

when I go buy myself some tampons. Society just needs to get over periods, it happens. This is my theory of how he could know. So they had these old and tiny sanitary towels that had like a belt that connected it. So have you ever seen a chastity belt at a museum? It's like a chastity belt, but for sanitary reasons. Yes, exactly. So it's like a plastic belt. And I feel like if you touch someone's waist, you would probably be able to feel it if you knew what you were looking for.

Oh my God. Imagine like wanting to wear a nice little dress and you have to wear a fucking like sanitary utility belt under it like that's exactly what it is it's a sanitary utility fuck off and they were dancing like there would have been hands-on wastes etc i think that's how he must have known i think that's probably the most likely scenario either that he's working in their local boots anyone who comes in to buy a sanitary belt oh and he times them i'm gonna murder you yeah i see you i see i'm gonna get you that's probably the most likely reason as you can imagine at this point glasgow is terrified the police took 50 000 witness statements and had over a thousand

suspects that screams of like police incompetence to me how have you got a thousand suspects they just had no idea i think it was literally anyone who walked down the road anyone who'd ever been to the barrowlands ever yeah inefficient police work though but mainly from gene's evidence they managed a sketch of bible john which is very famous so now he has a face this, which just sort of stirs people up even more. And this investigation has never really been closed. It's just called something different now. But they did throw up a few suspects, some of which are feasible and some of them are just not. John McInnes was a reasonable suspect, but all they really had on him was that he was violent,

he was bad news and he was in Glasgow at the time. So he is a military man, he was in the Scots Guards, and he killed himself when he was 41 by slashing his brachial artery, which is quite an odd thing to do, that's quite an odd way. It's the one in your arm, right? Yes. They say Hollywood is where dreams are made, a seductive city where many flock to get rich, be adored, and capture America's heart. But when the spotlight turns off, fame, fortune, and lives can disappear in an instant.

When TV producer Roy Radin was found dead in a canyon near L.A. in 1983, there were many questions surrounding his death. The last person seen with him was Lainey Jacobs, a seductive cocaine dealer who desperately wanted to be part of the Hollywood elite. Together, they were trying to break into the movie industry. But things took a dark turn when a million dollars worth of cocaine and cash went missing. From Wondery comes a new season of the hit show Hollywood and Crime, The Cotton Club Murder. Follow Hollywood and Crime, The Cotton Club Murder on the Wondery app

or wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge all episodes of The Cotton Club Murder early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus. I'm Jake Warren, and in our first season of Finding, I set out on a very personal quest to find the woman who saved my mum's life. You can listen to Finding Natasha right now exclusively on Wondery Plus. In season two, I found myself caught up in a new journey to help someone I've never even met. But a couple of years ago, I came across a social media post by a person named Loti. It read in part, Three years ago today that I attempted to jump

off this bridge, but this wasn't my time to go. A gentleman named Andy saved my life. I still haven't found him. This is a story that I came across purely by chance, but it instantly moved me and it's taken me to a place where I've had to consider some deeper issues around mental health. This is season two of finding and this time if all goes to plan we'll be finding andy you can listen to finding andy and finding natasha exclusively and ad free on wondery plus join wondery plus in the wondery app apple podcast or spotify i mean that is an odd way to kill yourself, but was he murdered? And they were just like... Maybe, but apparently, psychological assessment of him was that he was a psychopath

and that he may have killed himself in such... Barbaric, like, over-the-top way? Yeah, such a bizarre way because he was, like, looking for the final thrill, like... Did he have, like, PTSD? Where were the Scots Guard? Like, everywhere. I i mean this would have been maybe he had ptsd yeah of course mckinnis's body was exhumed in 1996 to check his dna against a semen sample found on helen puttick's tights but the results were inconclusive due to the sample being improperly stored obviously in the 60s they didn't have the resources to deal with semen fridges semen fridges

i am unsure of the shelf life of semen i don't imagine it's 40 years it's definitely not 40 years am i wrong in thinking that it can survive for three days outside the body yes you're wrong like no it can very wrong it can survive you're right in that it can survive for three days but it can survive for three days but it can survive for three days inside your body okay so it can just be like hanging out yeah so i think that if you have recently had sexual intercourse that's unprotected and there is semen inside you then i think that it can survive inside you for three days so so you might like ovulate two days after you've had sex but you could still get pregnant so the semen will just like got it

okay so it's not like around you want to have towels no you want to yeah oh my god no so it's not like those girls used to write into like miss magazine or teen cosmo and be like oh i i used my boyfriend's towel am i pregnant now and it's like literally that was me no you're not or can i get pregnant from a toilet seat no you can can I get pregnant from a toilet seat? No, you can't fucking get pregnant from a toilet seat. You're pointing at yourself like you have thought that. I definitely have thought that. There you go.

I hope that this is a big... Still have to fight those thoughts. This is a big game changer for you, that you now no longer need to worry about these things. You cannot get pregnant like that. And if worried, maybe just carry some spermicide around with you and just dab that shit everywhere just spray like people who have hand sanitizer you just spray spermicide on your crotch every now and again like you know when people get off public transport and put hand san on their

hands just get off the bus and spray your crotch with spermicide. There you go. That is how I'm going to make some friends. Trick me once. Shame on you. Trick me twice. But guess who's not getting pregnant? This bitch. Guess who's going to smell like spermicide?

I don't know what spermicide smells like. I think it smells a bit, like, bleachy. Oh, how do you know? Because it's like, I mean let's just let's just move away enough talk of spermicide and how all the ways you can't get pregnant man so the same sample was used much later in 2004 the police announced further dna tests on multiple different people that yielded an 80 match if the sample is too disintegrated to be able to use it on john mckinnis how is it yielding an 80 i also like don't really understand that because it's like

surely either it's a match it's not a match or it's like inconclusive yeah but what is this well i guess maybe 80 just makes it inconclusive like they can't say for sure but just is 80 is that like you're related but then why wouldn't they just say that because i think there's like certain markers that would prove it was like it's not him but it's like maybe a brother or a father or something i i don't really get it and they don't elaborate on that so i think and also i think when was this this was in 1996 like how good was our our dna checking 20 years ago 80 was in 2004 80% was in 2004. Oh, was it? Well, yeah. Even still, though.

I mean, I don't know. I don't really understand what that means. And also, after Amanda Knox, I don't trust DNA for shit anyway. Oh, also a sample that was already, they've admitted, was improperly stored for 40 years, like. Yeah, so John McInnes is completely,

is clear to this. I'm sure he was a piece of shit, but he wasn't this particular piece of shit. No. There's another, I hate this one. I hate this so much. One of the suspects was Peter Sutcliffe. There's another I hate this one. I hate this so much. One of the suspects was Peter Sutcliffe. There's

nothing else that's similar. The type, the victimology none of it. Like Peter Sutcliffe was going after women who lived very high risk lifestyles. This person was probably a bit more criminally sophisticated because he was managing to kill women who lived very low risk lifestyles. Yes, yeah. They were married, they had children, they were going

out for a night every now and again at a dance club called the Barrowlands, which by all sounds perfectly normal. Yeah, exactly. So it's, that's just, that's a lazy fucking theory. And I hate that it's just like, there must be only one British man who is capable of killing like this. It's so dumb. No, no, no, it is dumb. And I'm glad I got to use my little Game of Thrones geography. The next theory is the military leave theory. Although this one could be applied also to John McInnes, it's also one that we don't really have time for because, again, it's quite lazy

and it's not really answered that many questions. So the theory goes that these three murders could only have been committed by someone in the military who was on leave and then went back to active service, which was why the murders stopped. There are so many reasons why the murders could have stopped. I mean, I do get that, because a lot of times they do think, like, is this person been locked up for another crime?

Did they die? Did they become, you know, disabled in some way that stopped them being able to do this? Did they move away? Or did they go back after military leave? But, I mean, I can understand wanting to think that these acts could only have been committed by someone who had seen true horror, but honestly... Just grow up!

Yeah, I do get that you would want to think that the only way someone could commit something so horrific and the only reason we can't find them is because they've gone back to the army, but it's pulled out of thin air. It really is. It is, and that's why we're not really going to talk about that one too much. The next one, the final one,

the one that is probably most likely and that we think is most likely is Peter Tobin. And for those of you who may not know who Peter Tobin is, we might come back and do an episode on him another time because he's a whole another hell of fun because he is a fucking crazy bastard. Like a really

bad serial killer. Real twisted fucker. Really bad British serial killer. He did some horrendous things, murdereded, you know, countless women. And Tobin is by far the most popular choice for Bible John. With Professor David Wilson, who is one of the top British serial killer experts. He says. He claims himself. He's a bit of a documentary

whore. If you've ever watched any British true crime documentary, guarantee Professor David Wilson is in there. And so he claims that he could stake his reputation and his career on the fact that Tobin and Bible John are one in the same. Also think it's important to note he did say that just after he'd released a book on Peter Tobin. Oh yeah he's he's very much he knows how to promote himself. He's playing the game. So Peter Tobin is currently serving a whole of life order for the

murders of three victims between 1991 and 2006 we already know that he is definitely a murdering bastard but was he this murdering bastard is the question so he was diagnosed as a psychopath by a senior psychologist the real difference between like what some people maybe like call a psychotic killer or a psychopathic killer i think they they are confused a lot they are confused a lot and i think psychopath is just like bandied around far too much. I hate it when people just call everyone like a psycho or a schizo. And I'm like, you don't know what that means. It doesn't.

Yeah. And I'm just kind of like, we should all educate ourselves on these things. And I think a really key difference between psychotic and psychopathic is such an important distinction to make. Like, I think the clearest way to make it is like someone who's psychotic doesn't know what they're doing and doesn't know what they're doing is wrong so a classic example is someone like richard chase the vampire of sacramento go break into people's houses murder them and then walk out of their houses covered in blood having made no attempts to clean anything up having made no attempts to

not be seen because he didn't know what he was doing was wrong it's like they're mad not bad and with a psychopathic killer they know exactly what they're doing. It's calculated, it's manipulative, it's very, very put together. They know exactly what they're doing is wrong and they make every attempt to cover it up. I think it's a control thing. I feel like a psychotic killer is completely out of control and a

psychopathic killer has never been more in control in their life. Yeah, yeah. Apart from when they allow themselves to lose control and to kill. So I think Bundy is a great example of a psychopathic killer. He knew how to cover it. He had his face that he put on

when he was sat at the Suicide Hotline Centre next to Anne Rule that no one knew that he was the murderer that was terrifying that entire state. Did you see that meme that's like Ted Bundy being like on the Suicide Hotline? Like, oh, no need to kill yourself.

Where do you live though? Bundy's great. I mean, he's a monster. An absolute monster. And I think that's a perfect example. I would veer away from calling someone who was psychotic a monster because they're completely out of control. But I think again, it's kind of a Hollywood

confusion. Hollywood, you have so much to answer for. I think that really helps. Sort of mad versus bad. Background check on Tobin. He was born in 1946 and Tobin was the second of eight children. He spent a lot of his youth in young offenders institutions and he moved around a lot.

Classic. Yeah, absolutely. Fred Westerlund. Oh, 100%. And also these guys, or girls, you know, people who have psychopathic tendencies, they can only fake it for so long. The reason they move around and live quite transient lifestyles is because they get found out sooner or later, their lives catch up with them and they have to move on. And also they have very low sort of like boredom thresholds. So he worked as a handyman. He moved around a lot, all over England, all over Scotland. And he would have three wives, all of whom would

report that he was very violent while whilst on the outside and when in public he would remain well dressed and charming but again this is a classic of whether it's like domestic abuse situations or anything or more sort of like a grievous in this sense it was this thing of like them putting on a very good front outside being very very in control again that's a very psychopathic tendency because your image is very very important oh absolutely peter tobin was first imprisoned for rape in 1993 and he was released in 2004 this is skirted over a lot we thought in articles and in documentaries made about peter tobin which there are so many and you should definitely go watch one because he's seriously a stone cold just absolute maniac what actually

happened with this particular rape that is not talked about very much is that he enticed two 14-year-old girls back to his flat. 14-year-old girls. And he's, what, in his 50s at this point, right? And he raped both of them in front of his son.

He stabs one of the girls, left the gas taps running, and then fled. Yes, absolutely rape, but how was this also not attempted murder? That's attempted murder. He stabbed them. He stabbed them and he left the gas running.

And also, come on, he's in his 50s when he commits this crime. That is a very violent crime to commit, for that to be your first crime in your 50s. And it's not a crime of passion. No, no. He lured them in. He knew exactly what he was doing. Absolutely.

This is not a first crime and no one commits this in their fifties. It's pretty late stage to start raping and murdering. It was just clearly the first time he'd been caught. To escape persecution for this crime, Tobin fled to Coventry. I mean, those of you who don't know the British Isles geography, I mean, I think what I should do is overlay this with a little bit of game of thrones you have been itching to get just do it i really think that we should be to be sensitive to our um ignorant british listeners and our non-british listeners so okay so imagine the westeros map yeah you're you're with me that is basically a reverse map

of the british isles when you're talking about about where Glasgow is, we're talking about beyond the wall, like quite far in the land of always winter. And then Hannah's laughing because she doesn't want to go over the road. Would you like to tell us where Coventry is on your Westeros map? I thought you'd never ask. Let me think.

I'd say like it's the Riverlands. Yeah, I mean, that means nothing to you. The listeners will know. So he fled to Coventry and joined this, they call themselves a religious sect, I'm going to say cult, called the Jesus Fellowship, which is now called Jesus's Army.

Oh my God. Yeah, serious. Very into sort of evangelical... Why does Jesus need an army? So many reasons. So they are the type of people that you see outside the tube telling you that Jesus loves you. It's them. And they do a lot lot sort of feeding the needy type thing so he was tracked down in this

religious communal thing he was living in because someone recognized his car for god's sake dump your car like that is rule number one yeah seriously but it's very important to note that peter tobin was a staunch roman catholic an incredibly religious man and also his wife his three wives that he had over his life all said that when they were on their periods he would just go into a violent rage like it set him off him sort of helping homeless people and feeding the needy and all of that sort of thing but simultaneous being able to rape and murder teenagers yeah shows there's a disconnect between women and people absolutely but and it's kind of like like a literal interpretation of like almost like the

old testament but you could put any religious text in front of somebody and they can interpret it in a way that allows them to treat women like shit and to just to help the needy because honestly i mean if you read some of these religious texts they they do make women seem they are inferior they are of course and they're dirty like it's subservient and it's like of course yeah like christianity and jesuism like in leviticus when it's the bit about thou shalt not lie with a man or the way you would with a woman or like don't wear blended fibers and don't eat prawns really good bit of the old testament that's the best revelation is the best one i have no idea i have no idea i like i no idea. Like, I had to go to convent school. I've done my time.

Oh, mate. I was in a Catholic school when I was very, very young when I first went to school. And it was in a different country so it was, like, where they could, like, actually beat you. And so it was, like, run by actual sadistic nuns. And I remember I'd be, like, five or six. I'd come home, lie in bed, and just cry because I thought I was going to go to hell.

Oh, no. I mean, it mean it was like full on fire and brimstone stuff. So if I have any sort of ill feelings towards religion that would be why. Yeah. Because if that's not child abuse, please tell me what is. So in Leviticus menstruation comes up in the disease section. A woman is considered

unclean for a day after she finishes her period. If a menstruating woman touches something, it is considered unclean. And if a man has period if a menstruating woman touches something it is considered unclean and if a man has sex with a menstruating woman he is unclean for seven days and not only that once a woman has finished her period she's expected to seek atonement for this disgusting thing that she has just done oh my god she's done are you fucking kidding no exactly so it's this part is that menstruation is used as proof that humans in general are fucking terrible but women are even worse of course but it's like anything

i mean even like what that play the crucible everything is like how women are still paying and will always have to pay the pain of childbirth everything is about you paying for the original yes absolutely you've committed. Even Thomas Aquinas said that periods are proof that women are subservient to men and are a major reason why women to this day can still not be priests in the Catholic church because they are like impure, which is just gross. It's not just Christianity. All the religions. All the religions.

Let's get down on all of them. Tell me one religion that doesn't oppress. And I'm not saying this is all religious people absolutely not i'm saying like when it's organized religion in that sense tell me one religion if you go back to its core texts doesn't oppress women and minorities oh i can't i can't name one absolutely and this is the thing so it's not just christianity it's all of them yeah in in islam a woman after she finishes her period is supposed to undergo the same cleansing ritual that she would have to do if she had touched a dead body yeah and in some parts of nepal like women don't leave the house at all oh absolutely and i think the nepalese one

is very i can relate to that because my family are from india i'm obviously very much an atheist and so are my parents but traditionally we are of hindu descent and in that religion absolutely if you are on your period you are not allowed inside the temple you and in much more like sort of rural areas and much more like regressive areas i mean this is changing now obviously but in some of the more rural areas very much like this nepalese one you stay in a certain you stay in your room if you're on your period you don't't touch anything. So horrendous. Exactly. And it's how it's like, the evolution of that into modern day is like, men on the internet making memes about like,

don't trust anything that bleeds for a week, a month and doesn't die. Oh, fucking. Get fucked. Like, oh, fuck off.

Scum of the earth. All religions have real issues surrounding menstruation and purity. As Tobin was fiercely Catholic, I can see how that ideology could have led to an attitude of women being dirty and disposable but he still felt like he could feed the poor but was it a penance was that how he figured it that is that how he reconciled everything like oh it's okay for me to rape and murder teenagers as long as i go and help some homeless people on my way home i know know. It was almost like absolute armchair psychologist, but something like,

if it says that it makes men who have sex with women who are menstruating impure after they've had sex with them, then is it almost like these women tempted him? And it's the classic thing, you see it in the Crucible, you see it in these religious texts where it's like women tempting men into sexual desire and you see that in so many different religions and this idea that maybe he felt so sexually lustful after them and it was their fault because they made him feel that way he then rapes them and then oh my god you've made me do this yeah i've give i've been tempted by you you siren and you're impure because you're on your period you've made me impure now

because you made me lust after you made me have sex with you i have to murder i'm gonna murder you absolutely my friend is um is american and she's from arizona and grew up in like a very fire and brimstone type church and she was in church and she was 14 and she was like her mum had like bought her her first thong and it was like this whole thing and she wore it like not thinking about it and it'd come up above her jean and a married man behind her looked his wife saw and my friend had to go into a meeting with the elders for being a temptress at 14 years old oh my god i mean and his wife was there and she was like how dare you. Like you siren. It's always, it's your fault for tempting me. Oh it's never the men's fault.

Classic victim blaming. She went out in a short skirt she was asking to get raped. She was asking for it. But anyway we're taking a massive tangent into like into societal pressures on women and etc. Yeah so once Tobin was released from jail I think he served seven years for the rape of these

two girls he got a job as a handyman under the assumed name patrick mclaughlin because he wanted to escape the violent sex offenders list which he was on it blows my mind that in 2006 all you had to do to escape the sex offenders register was change your name yeah so he went from john templeton john schmempleton to patrick mclaughlin and he was off the sex offenders register shut up so yeah he just managed to slip under the radar and get a job in a church and here he met a lady and here he met a lady angelica clook she was a student who was picking up some cleaning work to make extra money while studying. And on the 24th of September 2006, Tobin lured Angelica to a small garage where he tied her up,

raped her, stabbed her, and buried her body underneath the garage. And this is the worst bit. Forensic evidence has shown that she was still alive when he buried her. Buried her alive. Absolute fucking scumbag. Straight after the murder, some claim tobin went to feed the needy with an organization called loaves and fishes that he had been volunteering with for some time was this a penance or just like an absolute clear disconnect between the victims and the other

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wherever you get your podcasts. I don't know because I think because he's such a serial offender, I don't feel like he loses control. I think he knows exactly what he's doing. He thinks about it before. Is this just more about like image? This is just about who's going to suspect the guy that volunteers for

loaves and fishes? Look at John Wayne Gacy the guy who dresses up as clowns and goes and performs for like children's birthday parties. The guy who's like a political, you know, a political activist. All this like, not that he was a political activist in like a political party but just this idea of like, I was reading this interesting

thing actually about psychopaths actually needing to show more altruism because it's what that altruism represents and because their behavior is not genuine it's to mimic what they think is real behavior and real emotion so they don't know how a real person would behave in that situation so the best way is to go full because you don't really understand so it's like fake altruism from psychopaths because they they don't understand what real emotions and that looks like because it's all just mimicking behavior i think i read in an article that psychopaths are much more likely to um and are in their speech patterns like too much yeah because they're trying to emulate normal speech absolutely they make too much eye contact they're too to emulate normal speech. Absolutely. They make too much eye contact. They're too altruistic openly

because it's all about mimicking behaviour. I think that's all this was, really. So after the murder, Tobin then fled to London. London is King's Landing. He was arrested after he was discovered in the hospital under yet another fake name with a fictitious complaint. Yeah, so he just made up.

He's not very good at making things up either. And the details of the murder were so gruesome that members of the public were evicted from the courtroom when the images of Angelica's body were shown. It's horrendous. Now, I remember this being in the news. Yeah, I remember this. It's awful.

Yeah, it was only, what, 10 years ago? Yeah, it would have been 17. So Tobin was sentenced to a minimum of 21 years. And in 2007, Tobin's house in West Lothian was searched in connection to the disappearance of a 15-year-old girl, Vicky Hamilton, who went missing in 1991 from Falkirk. We're back in Scotland now, by the way.

We're back in Scotland. Beyond the wall. Tobin had left Scotland days after Vicky's disappearance and moved to Margate. Beach town. The police searched Tobin's house in Margate in 2007 and they found the remains of Vicky Hamilton buried under his back garden. Tobin's DNA was all over the sheeting in which Vicky Hamilton's body was wrapped and he was

convicted of this murder and his sentence was lengthened to 30 years. So you racked up another nine years for this one. Yeah. Is that it? Yeah. Apparently the judge said, if I could make this concurrent to your 21 years, I would. Then in 2008, the remains of Dinah McNichol were also found at Tobin's Margay house. Why didn't they find it the first time? Didn't they exhume the whole garden? Yeah, I know. That seems a bit weird. They missed that. Dinah had last been seen in 1991 when she was hitchhiking back from a music festival. What an idiot. Don't victim blame. I know.

But don't hitchhike. But don't hitchhike either. I'm so conflicted. I know. Me too. No, I know what you mean because it's fucking stupid. If you told me you hitchhiked back from somewhere, I'd be like, you're an idiot. Don't do that.

Have you ever hitchhiked? Never in my life. I'm too scared. I've done it once. I know. When? In Mexico. Oh my God, how are you not dead?

I know, well, I don't know what I was thinking, but I may say- Were you on your own? No, no, I was with a friend, but we'd gone to this little, like, cenote, freshwater lake, and they're, like, dispersed, like, all over the countryside. They're just, like, completely random places, and the one we went to was cenito escondido which like is actually like

secret like translates to that so it's like hard to find anyway if you like got the bus there got dropped off by the time we realized that we were done there there was like no one else there apart from like this mexican man and woman who were like also leaving at the same time so we just like they got up to leave and we just like sort of followed them out to see where they were like also leaving at the same time so we just like they got up to leave and we just like sort of followed them out to see where they were like how they were going to get out it's like in the middle of a wood and we followed them out and they had a car and the guy had been drinking all afternoon we'd been watching him and I was like oh they were like getting ready to drive off and we walked down the road ahead of them I was like we can't walk we're

just on the main road and they like drove out of the little bit we'd been in. I just put my thumb out and he stopped, so we got in his car and he was like, yeah, I'll drop you back. He could have absolutely murdered us. Oh, my God, he could have skinned you alive. He didn't, but he was definitely drunk. I suppose that's a bit different, is that you'd seen him interacting with human beings all day.

Yeah, but still, who knows? You are a braver woman than I. It was desperation. Anyway, Dinah was who knows? You are a braver woman than I. It was desperation. Anyway, Dinah was last seen getting into a man's car alone and then never seen again. Following her disappearance, withdrawals were periodically being made from her

building society account of £250 every few months, which was noted as unusual for those who knew her because she had always said she wanted to save for travel or to further her education. But she had gone missing. She had gone missing and I think he's doing this to make it look like she's alive. Yes. Absolutely.

And also because, hello, money. Yeah. Let's take that. Exactly. I mean, how much is he making as a handyman? This case was the absolute final nail in Tobin's coffin. His defence attorney offered no evidence at all in his trial because he was you know what mate fucking lost cause even i can't help you know yeah his sentence at this

point was increased to whole of life you're never seeing the light of day again this led to the police opening operation anagram which is still going because tobin is still alive and it's following his movements throughout his entire life. And the main purpose of Operation Anagram is to try and connect him or see if he is connected to the Bible John killings. So the police are convinced enough that he could be Bible John. They're still on the case. They're still on the case. How much do you want to be on that task force?

Oh my God, that's like my dream. Tobin has also boasted in prison that his body count is 48. He's been convicted for three. I think there absolutely are more Peter Tobin murders. I don't know if they're the Bible John ones. Was Peter Tobin Bible John or is this just a case of kind of desperate police work? So if we compare the similarities, so Tobin's multiple wives say that he became violent when they were menstruating as we mentioned he was a very religious Roman Catholic he looks like the composite sketch we've put up the composite sketch of Bible John and Peter Tobin's actual photograph next to each other so go look at the Instagram and you can see that he does look like the composite sketch they do look

alike and also but also he just kind of looks like a generic white man. Yeah, that's very true. But apparently, once Tobin's... This could just be sensationalism, but when Peter Tobin... When there was speculation in the news that he could be Bible John, quite a few women came forward when they saw him on telly saying, that man raped me at the Barrowlands in 68.

Also, he was in Glasgow at the time, and he was known to frequently move between england and scotland he met his first wife in the barrowlands there's just too many similarities to be a coincidence one of the multiple fake names he used was john semple so john templeton john schmempleton john sempleton and john semple yeah oh piss off. The difference is, though, Tobin was 21 at the time of the Bible John murders, so he could have got in... Could he have got in on the 25 nights? Probably.

I feel like if he knew someone on the door... Yeah, I feel like this was an over 25 nights for the women. I think they were letting all the boys in because they knew that's what the women were there for, probably. Yeah. So I don't think it would have been that difficult for him to get in he hid the bodies in the 90s he didn't leave them naked or out in the open he buried all of them yeah and that's peter tobin so peter tobin as we know him as a serial killer he hid and buried all of the bodies

in fact he went to meticulous lengths things like burying Angelica in the church. In Bible John's case, he left them all naked out in the open, incredibly exposed. But also, is there something that Bible John killed women he didn't know, whereas Peter Tobin killed women he did know? And is there something that... He only knew Angelica, he just picked up the other two. Fair enough, yeah, then I don't know. And Peter Tobin's first wife claimed that they were on their honeymoon in England at the same time that Jemima MacDonald was murdered.

Now, we've read a lot of people saying that she has no reason to lie, but loving a murderer is a complicated thing. Maybe she couldn't handle all the awful things he did to her, the three murders he was convicted of, and him being Bible John. I've read an interview where people are just, you know, oh, after all he did to her,

after all he put her through, why would she lie? So many reasons. Billions and billions and billions of reasons. Absolutely. Much more likely to lie because somebody put you

through loads of awful things. Yeah, yeah. That's not... So that doesn't hold up. No, there's no... Also, there's no evidence that in the 90s, murders,

so that they were on their periods but would that have been possible to know after their bodies were decomposing for so long absolutely no way and also by the 90s maybe he just no one was wearing a fucking like sanitary utility belt so he just couldn't tell which women were on their periods yeah so maybe he just loved murdering and he was like you've've had a period. I'm going to kill you. And the 90s victims, so the Peter Tobin victims, were all stabbed. And none of the 60s, so the Bible John victims, were. They were all strangled with their own ties.

That's the biggest thing for me, is that the MO is different. But people do change their MOs. They do, but my issue with it here is if the only thing they have on Peter Tobin was that he was in glasgow at the time he's a piece of work and he murders women i'm not sure if that's enough for me but the barrowlands he met his wife at the barrowlands i feel like everyone in glasgow went to the barrowlands maybe but i also think like okay hear me out the strangling is a very physical thing it's a very manual like it's exhausting who was it that said it's actually a lot harder than you would think?

A serial killer said it. It's harder than you think to choke the life out of somebody, right? I think that's John Wayne Gacy, you know. Maybe. It sounds like it's John Wayne Gacy. So I feel like in the 60s, he's a young lad. He's in his 20s. He can choke a woman to death with her tights.

And he loves it. Up close and personal. It's physical. it's rough then by the time he's in his 50s he can't control these women as well he isn't able to maybe there's even a bit of a disability in which he isn't able to get that power anymore because it's a stained thing to be able to choke the life out of somebody and strangle them so maybe he switches to stabbing because of ease, not because it's like his MO changes because he wants it to, but because it has to, to continue to kill women. Also, another thing is like the ages of the victims are different, but then he ages. The

younger the killer, the older the victim. But then I know that doesn't work here, but there is a correlation and a relationship between the age of the victim and the age of the killer. Yes, I do see that. So I feel like the big question here is, are we looking at a serial killer whose MO has evolved? Because it did evolve even with the Glasgow killings in the 60s. He started to get smart. He wasn't leaving them completely naked and out in the open.

He was using buildings and things like that. So we already see changes in the first three killings. God knows how much he could have learned in the 40 plus years. But what stopped Tobin? Say, let's say that Tobin is Bible John. Yes. He kills those three women and then nothing until he's in his 50s. I think nothing he got caught for.

But do you think he murdered more women? Yes, absolutely. Even if he isn't Bible John, he's definitely killed. I personally think he is Bible John. I'm like on the fence. Because I think there are a lot of things and I think that the

differences can be explained. That's why I think. But what I'm stuck on is it feels like all we have is he is a serial killer, he murders women, he was in Glasgow and he looks like a generic white man. That's true. It's hard to say and that's why it's a mystery

and Operation Anagram is still going strong. Still going strong. Scotland's longest and most unsuccessful investigation. And Tobin is still alive. He is in prison and he's had a stroke, he's had a heart attack and other prisoners have attacked him because they think what he has done is so disgusting. He's recently been described as a frail old Herbert who's too afraid to show his face.

Oh. Oh. Poor guy. Poor guy. Trap. So that is Bible John. So let us know if you think Peter Tobin was Bible John or you have another theory or a case you would like us to cover.

You can follow us on everything at RedHandedThePot. And join us next time when we will be talking about a really infamous case here in the UK, which is the White House farm murders, or you may know it better as the Jeremy Bamber case. Thank you for listening, and we'll see you next time. See you later. Bye. So, get this. The Ontario Liberals elected Bonnie Crombie as their new leader.

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