RedHanded - Episode 51 - The Moors Murders: Beyond Redemption - Part 2

Episode Date: June 21, 2018

In this week's episode Myra Hindley and Ian Brady escalate; abducting, torturing, raping and murdering four more children. In their arrogance and hedonistic pursuit of violent pleasure, they make the grave mistake of trying to involve a new accomplice - one who would ultimately reveal their evil to the world.    See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to Red Handed early and ad-free. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. and lives can disappear in an instant. Follow Hollywood and Crime, The Cotton Club Murder on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Saruti. I'm Hannah. And welcome to Red Handed. Last week, we left Ian Brady and Myra Hindley buzzing after their first kill. But after the error Myra made in going after Pauline Reed, because remember, she knew Pauline. They knew they needed to wait before they could kill again. So they waited three months, which time tragically Pauline Reed's father Amos became the prime suspect in her disappearance. But eventually with nothing concrete to tie Amos to Pauline's

disappearance and no other leads the police concluded that Pauline must have just run away with a boyfriend. And finally after three months and with no attention on them, Brady and Hindley set their sights on their next existential activity. This time, they spent weeks planning their next kill. This time, it was going to be meticulous. They weren't going to leave anything to chance. But then, on the 22nd of November, 1963, JFK was assassinated. And Brady knew that this would give them the perfect cover, the best distraction. So the very next day they struck,

and 12-year-old John Kilbride became their second victim. Young boys during this time would often hang around the markets, helping traders move things or run errands for them to make a little cash. And at a market in Ashton-under-Lyne in Lancashire, about 15 minutes' drive from Gorton, was where they found John. John was hanging about with his mates when Myra approached him and asked him if he'd help her load some boxes into her car. He agreed and she offered him a lift home. This time Brady was in the car. Once they set off Myra once again spun John the tail of the missing glove and asked him if he might be willing to come with them to

Saddleworth Moor to look for it. She promised him that they'd drop him straight home afterwards and she'd even give him a bottle of sherry if they found it. So John agreed. But when 8pm came and went at the Kilbride home and there was no sign of John, his family called the police. No one could have imagined that by then 12-year-old John Kilbride had already been raped, strangled and his body dumped in a shallow grave on the moors. Now, the shift in victim profile here is really interesting. They went from Pauline Reed, who was a 16-year-old girl, to John Kilbride, who was a 12-year-old boy. If we compare this to, like, the Wests, it's really strange, isn't it?

Because the West stuck almost pretty much exclusively to girls. Do you know what I think it is? I think, as we see with Brady, like throughout his entire life, it's about not being what everyone else is. So I think he knows that picking victims in that way is unusual. So he's proving that he is not like anyone else.

He's not even like other serial killers. He's not like other psychopaths. He is of his own ilk. That's a really interesting theory. If he did it on purpose, that is fucking frighteningly, even more frightening than anything Brady does. But if not, and it's not even a conscious decision,

you're absolutely right. Even within the world of serial killers and child sex offenders, he is now completely of an other type and again I think that adds really to the whole mythology around Brady and why this crime and why he is so enduring in our minds given even given the fact that there have been so many crimes like this and especially when you look into child sex offenders who do cross between genders there are studies which show that generally this is really rare but when it does happen it happens usually when the

victims are very very young brady and hindley are again anomalies here they cross genders two of their victims were girls and three were boys and they vary massively in ages their oldest victim edward edfins was 17 and their youngest leslie ann downey was just 10 this is really unusual because yeah like i said this normally only happens when the victims are very, very young. But their victims aren't that young. No, they're not. It's not like they're two or three years old. They're 12 and 16. Which is generally the age range within which you see gender switching in sex offenders. So yeah, interesting point.

Now after the murder of John Kilbride, the couple had a long cooling off period before their next kill. There had been fewer mistakes with the murder of John, so Brady and Hindley took joy in the calm of knowing that no one could connect them. In the meantime, again, just like we saw with Pauline Reed, John's father became the main suspect in his disappearance. But when nothing could be made to stick, the case went cold. During which time, Brady and Hindley continued their picnics on the moors. They relished in this huge secret that they had. The moors were theirs and they'd go up there almost every weekend to get drunk and shoot their guns. I just don't get, I don't get it. I don't get the playing with guns thing. I especially don't get the drinking and playing with guns thing. Maybe that's just a cultural difference but like I would never seek out that

kind of activity I don't think. I think it's probably not so much a cultural difference but I think it's because he's a psychopath. Oh yeah but there definitely are reasonably normal people who get drunk and shoot stuff like I think that's a thing people do. I can't even do laser quest. When we did laser quest at school I hid under the bunk bed in the World War II section the whole time. Can't do it. Brilliant. Oh, when we played Laser Quest at my last job, I won Top Gun. Of course you did.

I did. And I went to work that day, as I do every day, wearing heels. And I forgot to take trainers with me, even though I knew I was going to Laser Quest after work. Totally forgot. So you're just a stiletto assassin? And I turned up and the guy was like we've got some spare shoes obviously i'm a like tiny size four he didn't have any shoes that fitted me so i was like well i've paid for this and i've come all the way to like

south london to fucking play laser quest i'm playing in these heels he was like okay but if you break your ankle like you can't sue us us because I'm telling you not to do this. Fuck you guys. I was top gun. I thought you were going to say that he gave you some like kid shoes with like the curly laces. No, I was like, I'm good. I'm just going to do it in this. Fucking one.

Anyway. Brady would even have Myra pose on the grave sites of Pauline and John. He loved taking pictures of his lover and their dog in mundane scenes of indifference, stood on the bodies of the children they had murdered like the nazis he admired so much he loved recording everything and i think that this kind of moore's picnics hanging out near the greys sustained them for a while but eventually though once the thrill of reliving the murder of john faded the itch came

back and now the urge to kill led them to 12-year-old Keith Bennett, their third victim. This time they got in the car and drove for 15 minutes in the opposite direction to where they'd picked up John Kilbride. And they drove to Chorlton-on-Medlock. Keith was on his way to his grandmother's house when they spotted him. They lured him into their car and drove him to the moors. Once safely in a hidden spot, Brady struck. Brady raped Keith, then strangled the 12-year-old with his bare hands. He then photographed Keith's body, before, we assume, dumping him into a shallow grave, as he had done with the others. Now we say we assume, because the added tragedy in Keith's

case was that he is the only Moores victim that we know of, whose body has never been found. His mother Winnie spent the rest of her life looking for her son until she died in 2012. The police even begged Brady as he was on his deathbed last year to reveal the location of Keith's body but they got absolutely nothing and now all that remains is a plaque that overlooks Saddleworth Moor which reads to Winnie and Keith may you both rest in peace Keith will come home. And while there is certainly that tragedy attached to the death of Keith Bennett, the next killing, the murder of Lesley-Anne Downey, the fourth and youngest Moores murder victim, is definitely the most infamous.

On Boxing Day 1964, little 10-year-old Lesley-Anne Downey had gone to a fair in Ancoats with her siblings and their friends. The other kids were done with the fair and wanted to head home but Leslie Anne wanted to go and look at the lights one last time before they left. As she stood transfixed by the twinkling lights of the Christmas fair Hindley moved in. She walked past Leslie Anne and dropped her groceries on the floor. The little girl came over and helped Hindley who asked Lesliene if she'd please help her take her groceries to her house. The now notorious 16 Wardlebrook Avenue, where the couple had moved along with Myra's grandmother a year

before. This is the first time we see the couple luring a victim back to their house. As we usually see with serial killers, there needs to be an escalation. By their very nature, these people, so psychopaths, people like Brady, are very easily bored, so they have to keep stepping it up. And after three murders on the Moors, I think it was just that they couldn't control the situation as well as they'd have liked to there, and they couldn't keep their victims alive for very long,

you know, to, like, make the most of it. And I think it's this need to step it up that leads them to take this really big risk of taking a victim back to their house. It's like the potential rush and thrill of this overrides Brady's usual drive to mitigate risk. So once inside the empty house, empty because Myra's grandmother was staying with another relative for the evening, Myra started to strip the terrified girl naked. They then sexually abused Lesley-Anne, all the while with Brady taking photographs. And why this particular killer is so, so infamous is because Brady and Hindley recorded on audio tape the final 16 terrifying minutes of Lesley-Anne Downey's life. The recording was found and became a key piece

of evidence in their trial. And it really, truly highlights just how depraved they both were. And vitally, the tape played an absolutely crucial role in marking Myra Hindley not as a reluctant victim of Brady's, as she'd later claim, so troubling. I mean, troubling is not even the word. I don't know what the right word is. It's fucking grotesque. I'm sorry. And we'll come back to it later on when we talk about the trial. In the tape, Hindley, Brady and Lesley-Anne can all be heard. In the background plays the Christmas song, The Little Drummer Boy, as you hear Myra telling a screaming Lesley-Anne to shut up and put it in her mouth. After their hideous photography session, Brady raped Lesley-Anne, but it was Hindley who killed her. She strangled Lesley-Anne with a nylon cord, which Brady said she then kept on her,

carrying it around for months later, like some grotesque trophy. The next day, they took Lesley-Anne's body to the Moors and buried her in a shadow grave. This escalation of their crimes, the increased risks he was now willing to take, opened up new possibilities for Brady. He was getting bored again, bored with Myra. And remember Myra's sister's boyfriend Dave Smith who we met in part one, the one who knew Pauline Reed, the first victim? Well, the four of them, Brady, Myra, Maureen and Dave, had all been hanging around together quite a lot. It was very serious between Maureen and Dave. Maureen had become pregnant and the two

had decided to get married. And Dave, although it's reported in many places that he was totally enthralled by Brady, actually found Brady super odd. Definitely. And it makes way more sense. Dave was like a simple northern lad. He worked on building sites, in factories, wherever he could get work. He liked to pint down the pub and he had his woman and a baby on the way. So then when it comes to this guy Brady, quoting Nietzsche and playing classical music, of course Dave found him pretentious and weird. I feel like Dave sort of assigns to our school of thought

of just thinking that Brady's a bit of a dickhead. I completely agree. And there is nothing worse when you're really close to someone, whether it's sibling or like your best friend or whatever and they've just got a shit boyfriend definitely and then your life is forever hanging around with someone you don't like for the rest of your existence i can't stand it i really truly have strong absolutely and these were the feelings i think that dave was having you know they were just forced to hang out more and more that maureen and

myra were sisters and they were really close and And the more they hung out, the more Brady liked that Dave didn't just agree with him about everything. Brady needed a new challenge. Like you said, he was getting bored with Myra. She was broken in now and it was too comfortable. He wanted to bring Dave Smith in on their existential activities. This is where we see Brady starting to take more and more risks because for Brady the thrill was all about moulding the other person, testing to see how far he could push them, how far they'd go. I think he would have made pretty good cult leader maybe. I think if he hadn't gone straight for the murders I feel like he could have built up a pretty strong following

of people. He needed more patience because Brady he was like what 24 when he started these killings if he'd have waited he was like 34 he could have started a cult you're absolutely right oh yeah if he just started off with sweat lodges he could have had a decade-long career as a cult leader for sure he was very impatient and again you see that with him here already they've killed two kids already he's bored with myra he needs to step it to the next level this is what he wants now he wants to go as far as seeing if he can bring Dave Smith this ordinary guy who doesn't he gets the vibe he doesn't really like him he doesn't really trust him he doesn't agree with him but can he bring him can he bring Dave now into his world of depravity this is it he needs a new project and also I think that Brady could tell that it wasn't going to be as easy with

Dave as it had been with Myra. And I think that just made it all the more appealing. Oh, yeah, definitely. Because right from the get go, Myra's just been completely enamored with him. So it's the opposite of that. So I can completely understand why it's a more satisfying challenge for him. Absolutely. And one night, whilst the four were drinking at Maureen and Dave's house, Brady started to test the waters with Dave. He asked him, are you capable of murder? I've done it. I've killed three or four. You don't really believe me, do you? But I have. Their bodies are buried on the moors. You and Maureen were even sitting near one of them. He was referring to one of the recent moors picnics Hindley and Brady had taken

Dave and Maureen on. Seeing that Dave was confused, Brady simply laughed and changed the subject. Brady was excited. He really enjoyed the grooming phase. I really think that's his like best bit. If he could just do the grooming for the rest of his life, he'd be a happy, happy man. And Brady, like any good profiling predator, knew the right levers to pull for different people. For Dave, it was money. Maureen had had their baby and Dave was out of work. He was in so much debt and now his landlord was threatening him with eviction. So he was desperate. But Brady said he could help. Brady said he could get him money by, quote, rolling a queer. This basically meant that Brady would help Dave go out to Canal Street, Manchester's now famous, then infamous gay scene,

and find him a man, entice him with sex, and then bring him back to theirs. Then they'd rob him. And this was the 1960s, after all, and homosexual acts were illegal. So no one was going to the police after such an encounter. It's kind of the perfect crime. Dave agreed and Brady told him that he'd take care of it. So on the evening of the 6th of October, Hindley and Brady went to Central Manchester Station where Brady met 17-year-old Edward Evans. Edward had been stood up by his friends,

and so Brady asked him if he wanted to come to his house party. I don't know how different things were then, but if a stranger comes up to you in a train station and says, do you want to come to my house party? Maybe don't. My answer's probably going to be no, but it's the 60s. I don't know, is probably gonna be no but it's the 60s i don't know swinging 60s maybe but i really can't think of a situation where i would be like yep great i will come with you on my own but this is not how this plays out edward wasn't actually gay he just thought he was headed to a

fun party somewhere and remember brady was only 27, 28, probably seemed quite cool. I imagine he probably dressed quite well. And Myra's in the car too, so that instantly neutralises any potential fear in the situation because there's a woman there. Still, that just seems unbelievable that you just get stood up by your friends. Again, think though that they are so manipulative and glib and i can imagine when brady wants to turn it on that he probably would have seemed really legit and cool and edward was just 17 i think maybe he'd had a couple of drinks it seemed like a great idea yeah that it's the worst idea ever because they head back to 16 wardlebrook Avenue and when they arrived, Brady told Myra to go and get Dave so he could join in the fun.

When Dave arrived with Myra, Brady greeted him at the door to the kitchen before disappearing into the living room. Dave then heard a scream so he rushed into the living room where he found Brady wielding an axe, attacking a screaming Edward Evans. Dave then watched in horror as Brady beat Edward with the axe, smashing him in the head 14 times, before finishing him off by strangling him with a length of nylon cord. As Dave stood there paralysed with fear and shock, Brady thrust the handle of the axe into his hands, ensuring that his fingerprints were embedded into the sticky blood. Throughout the attack, Myra had stood in the room, smiling. I think Dave was genuinely, I mean how could he not be, in total shock which then turned into like a desperate attempt to survive this situation at all costs and Dave does really well here. He helped them clean the bloody mess in the living room and listened in horror as they chatted

casually over cups of tea and bloody rags and buckets about the look in edward evans's eyes when the first blow struck dave even helped them wrap edward's body up and hide it upstairs he had been there all night cleaning because yeah i mean like if you're going to smack someone in the head 14 times with an axe that's going to be one hell of a cleanup job and how heavy a sleeper is myra's nan i mean she sleeps through the whole fucking thing yeah i mean maybe they were drugging her. You don't know what was going on with her. I mean, I wouldn't put it past them, but she's got to be on something

because I really don't know if it's possible to sleep through someone being axed to death downstairs. And also, Dave was being careful not to seem too desperate to leave. That's very smart, smart boy. He had to convince them that he was on board if he was going to survive it and his acting worked because finally at 4 a.m he told the pair that he should get back and clean up before maureen woke up and they told him to go a seriously disturbed but relieved dave walked out of there as fast as he could i can't imagine having that

thought process of just i knew he was a wank, but I didn't know he was a fucking murderer. And it's your, it's your sister, he's your brother-in-law essentially. Absolutely. And once outside, he ran the 300 yards to his own house where he vomited so violently, he woke up Maureen and he told her everything. Thinking it would be too risky to go out immediately, in case Brady was watching, they waited until daylight. And at 6am, they headed out to find a payphone to call the police. At 6.07am, Constable Keith Edwards answered the phone to a frantic David Smith, calling from Hattersley about a murder. Soon after this shocking call, more than 30 police officers descended on 16 Wardlebrook

Avenue. Superintendent Bob Tolbert, dressed up like a bread delivery man wearing a white coat and even carrying a basket of bread, went and knocked on the door. Is this postman Pat? That's so weird that a policeman has just been like, oh no, must be a bread delivery man. Do we even have them anymore? Do we have milkmen anymore? Yeah, we have milkmen. Do you? We have a milkman that goes around, like, goes around. We don't get him because, like, we don't drink milk,

but he does go around. It's good, though. It's because you have, like, the fill-up glass bottles rather than everybody buying plastic bottles full of milk. Yeah, definitely. I think I quite like a bread man. We don't have a bread man. That's a step too far.

If any of you guys have a bread man, let me know. I don't think you can get a bread man anymore. I bet you can. I bet there's some places. There is, but you'd be paying like £20 on a loaf because there'll be like some artisan hipster delivering you bread on his bicycle. I also don't really eat bread.

Exactly. I think I could like keep a loaf of bread. I could make a loaf of bread last these days for like a month. Well, you can't because it goes mouldy before then. Mate, put it in the freezer. Oh, you're a freezer heathen, I see. Did you not watch that show on the BBC last week as well, The Truth About Carbs? If you freeze bread and then toast it, it's like slashes the calories in it.

Stop it. True story. Anyway, so Superintendent Bob Talbot dresses up like a bread man and he knocks on the door. When Myra opens the door, Talbot tells her that he was not a bread man. He was, in fact, a police officer and they were looking for a man. And even though Myra decided to tell him there was no man there, Bob Talbot, not believing her, pushed past her to find Brady sat at the table, writing a sick note to his boss.

Yes. What do you do when you've killed a 17-year-old? You better be very conscientious and write a sick note to your boss so that you can take the day off to go bury his body on the moors. So he's forging his doctor's writing, presumably. I mean, probably. Not like I, Ian Brady, diagnosed myself as not able to work. I'm sick. Love, Ian.

And Brady, this just sums him up so perfectly. He barely looks up from this letter he's writing and told Talbot there was a fight last night. It got out of hand. It's upstairs. And the it's he's referring to is obviously Edward Evans's body. And sure enough, upstairs, they find the body. And also upstairs, they find Myra's grandmother sat sipping a cup of tea with no idea what the hell had happened the night before, somehow. She's such a good cameo character in this story, I think, Myra's nan. She genuinely is. She just, like, pops in every now and again drinking a cup of tea.

Either she knows exactly what's going on and she's just like, I'm going to stay really fucking quiet because this psychopath is going to me or she's just like cup of tea anyone cup of tea yeah just constantly wearing those fluffy slippers the hairnet why is the bread man inside why is he here but the bread man is there to arrest brady because well there's a body in your house so they take him in for questioning and remember at this point they only have Brady on Edward Evans' murder. They hadn't even linked the other child's appearances, let alone connected them to Brady.

During interrogation Brady totally minimised Myra's role. He removed her completely from the story and, fascinatingly, marked Dave Smith as his accomplice, telling police that they had killed Edward together. Despite Brady's best efforts however, Dave told the police that Myra was definitely involved. He'd watched her that night. He knew what she was. I also really enjoy that what Brady's undoing was is that he's just not that good at brainwashing. He's not as shithot as he thinks he is and I'm so glad that that's what brought him down rather than... None of them ever are. I think that's why he says that that's what brought him down rather than none of them ever are i think that's why he says that it's dave doing the killing because then he's saying oh no i succeeded i haven't

failed at something that i said i could do i've done everything i set out to achieve i've just been caught do you know what i mean but it took the police four days after brady's arrest to get around to bringing myra in and in that time Myra disposed of vital evidence. Evidence Brady later told police would have helped identify the location of Keith Bennett's body. But the police arresting Myra did finally break the case. In the spine of Myra's bible they found a ticket stub. It was a ticket for luggage storage at Manchester Central Station. When the police checked the locker, they found a suitcase filled with completely unexpected brutality. The suitcase contained photographs of 10-year-old Lesley-Anne Downey, naked, being tortured, and even photos of her dead. They also found in the suitcase the notorious tape of Lesley-Anne's death.

There was also a huge amount of evidence pointing to the murder of John Kilbride. Other evidence found seemed to link the pair to the disappearances of Pauline Reed and Keith Bennett, but it was less concrete. Thanks to the help of Dave Smith and the evidence in the suitcase, the police were able to find Lesley-Anne Downey's body pretty soon after Brady's arrest, and it was followed a few days later by the discovery of John Kilbride's body. Pauline Reed and Keith Bennett's names would remain on the police missing persons list for the next 20 years. But before we get there, let's discuss what was an absolute media circus of a

trial. The nation was repulsed and fascinated. Those infamous mugshots made daily headlines and would continue to do so for a generation. I mean, fucking hell, Google Moore's murders now and there are still headlines being churned out. The trial started in April 1966 and would last just 15 days. That's unbelievable to me. 15 days for a murder trial. It's astonishing, yeah. It's insane, but apparently that was enough time. And this is also crazy to me. The couple remained totally united during custody. They were even given the same solicitor and allowed to meet and exchange notes. How are you letting these two people meet each other again? It's completely unbelievable. And in these notes, they continued their sick fantasies. In one note, they even

discussed how they'd love to throw acid in the face of a grieving relative of one of their victims. They've clearly not learned their lesson. And Brady in custody was just so deluded and drunk on arrogance and self-importance. He actually seemed to be looking forward to his moment in the spotlight. Dr. David Holmes, a criminal psychologist who assessed Brady said, quote, Brady regarded the courtroom as something that he could almost preside over. His overconfidence and narcissism actually made him think that everyone would believe what he said. We've seen that before, haven't we? A hundred percent.

It doesn't matter how outlandish his story is. He really believes, even though he's been caught out, he really believes he can convince anyone of anything. And on the 27th of April 1966, Hindley and Brady were brought to trial at Chester Assizes, where they pleaded not guilty to all charges. Their plan in court was to blame Dave Smith for everything. But it was the tape, the tape of Leslie Ann Downey's torture and death that cemented in everyone's mind that this was a joint exploit between Brady and Hindley alone. Hi, I'm Lindsey Graham, the host of Wondery Show American Scandal. We bring to light some of the biggest controversies in U.S. history.

Presidential lies, environmental disasters, corporate fraud. In our latest series, NASA embarks on an ambitious program to reinvent space exploration with the launch of its first reusable vehicle, the Space Shuttle. And in 1985, they announced they're sending teacher Krista McAuliffe into space aboard the Space Shuttle Challenger, along with six other astronauts. But less than two minutes after liftoff, the Challenger explodes. And in the tragedy's aftermath, investigators uncover a series of preventable failures by NASA and its contractors that led to the disaster.

Follow American Scandal on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. Experience all episodes ad-free and be the first to binge the newest season only on Wondery+. You can join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify. Start your free trial today. I'm Jake Warren, and in our first season of Finding,

I set out on a very personal quest to find the woman who saved my mom's life. You can listen to Finding Natasha right now exclusively on Wondery Plus. In season two, I found myself caught up in a new journey to help someone I've never even met. But a couple of years ago, I came across a social media post by a person named Loti. It read in part, Three years ago today that I attempted to jump off by chance, but it instantly moved me and it's taken me to a place where I've had to consider some deeper issues around mental health.

This is season two of Finding and this time, if all goes to plan, we'll be finding Andy. You can listen to Finding Andy and Finding Natasha exclusively and ad-free on Wondery Plus. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify. Harvard is the oldest and richest university in America. But when a social media-fueled fight over Harvard and its new president broke out last fall, that was no protection. Claudian Gay is now gone. We've exposed the DEI regime, and there's much more to come. This is The Harvard Plan, a special series from the Boston Globe and WNYC's On the Media.

To listen, subscribe to On the Media wherever you get your podcasts. The interviews with the police who found the tape and they just look so haunted by it. I mean, just having read the transcript, she just cries for her mum in every sentence while Myra screams at her and God knows what they're doing. It's absolutely horrific. And finally, on the 7th of May 1966, the all-male jury gave their verdicts. Brady, guilty of murdering Evans, Downey and Kilbride. Hindley, guilty of murdering Evans and Downey, but not guilty of murdering Kilbride. The judge, Judge Fenton Atkinson, said he would pass the only sentence the law now allowed and sentence Brady and Hindley to life imprisonment with a minimum tariff of 30 years. Unbelievably, Brady and Hindley had just narrowly avoided the hangman's

noose because just four weeks before Brady's arrest, the death penalty in Britain was abolished. After the sentencing, Brady seemed totally unmoved as he was led away and mirroring this, a fully composed Hindley also left the dock. After sentencing Brady was taken to Durham prison and for the next two decades he would be transferred between prisons across the UK until 1985 when he was diagnosed as a psychopath and sent to Ashworth Psychiatric Hospital. It's a high security facility in Merseyside in northwest England. Why does being diagnosed as psychopath end you up in a psychiatric hospital? That's what I was going to say. It seems, is it not more of a personality type rather than an illness? It absolutely is. I wonder if this was because back then how much they were looking at

psychopathy as not just a sort of personality disorder, but as a psychiatric condition, which now we don't do. It is absolutely defined as a personality disorder, not a psychiatric condition which now we don't do it is absolutely defined as a personality disorder not a psychiatric condition but even like the people there were like oh we think he's faking madness to be put in a psychiatric hospital for an easier ride but then if you've been diagnosed a psychopath how are you faking madness it means you're bad not mad but um no i wasn't totally clear about that either because i think it must have been a sort of time and place thing i think so but i do think that his antics in prison right up until he died like the hunger strikes that just causing a fuss in general it's all just a center of attention thing 100 he just

he never changes he never gives up and throughout their time in prison Hindley and Brady wrote to each other and they even this I cannot deal with this they even applied to be married but obviously their request was denied I don't understand that at all because I always see it as Brady he could have had a lot of Myra's but maybe I'm wrong maybe there was something unique about her in his eyes to keep up this relationship even when they're in prison but i just i've never really seen it like that i think it was just she was there at the time i also think it was because like we saw with the west's if you commit these crimes with another person you can take all the trophies in the world the photographs the cuts of hair whatever you want to take as a creepy serial killer but having committed those

crimes with another person that person becomes a living trophy for you that's a really good to discuss those crimes to relive the thrill of what you've done together and i think maybe in that way brady was addicted to myra but i don't think he was capable of loving her no also at this point you know they're in prison but don't forget that they were only found guilty of the murders of Lesley-Ann Downey, Edward Evans and John Kilbride. Pauline and Keith were still up on the moor somewhere and their names were still just on the police missing persons list. That was until November 1984, when Brady hinted to journalist Fred Harrison that he had killed Pauline and Keith. He gave the police just enough information that they found Pauline's body. So 20 years after her disappearance and murder, Pauline Reed's remains were finally brought home. I think at this point, Brady makes a revelation for attention, like you were saying, and because

he had resigned himself as well, I think, to the fact that he was never going to get out of prison. Myra, on the other hand, tried desperately during her time in prison to convince the world that she too had been a victim of Brady's. A move that just made public anger towards her intensify. Myra also rediscovered her religion in jail and stripped the bleach blonde from her hair back to her mousy brown. But how much can we really believe that Myra was remorseful? Because I'll put this out there now. She wasn't a victim of Ian Brady's. I think she knew exactly what she was doing and she loved it. Was she remorseful?

I doubt it. She was highly manipulative and I think she just wanted out of prison. Do you think though, do you think if she'd never met Ian Brady, she'd never got that job, they'd never crossed paths, do you think she would have been a murderer? No, I don't think she would have been a murderer. I think Ian Brady pulled her into that world, but I think she was more than happy to go along with it oh I completely agree I don't buy for a second what

she tries to sell in her later life of you know I was just under his spell and I was so helpless and I just waited in the car no you didn't Myra like you she knew exactly what she was doing and I also think if she was remorseful she would say say where the bodies are. A hundred percent. A hundred percent. And also, I think it's just because there is also that block. She's saying it, that she was a victim. There's also that block in society. We want to find an excuse for why women do do this, especially when it's female child sex offenders.

That is like the hardest thing for society and for us to get our heads around. It completely makes no sense to us as how we view women in society and how they should be and how this kind of aberration can happen and i think myra was trying to capitalize on that taboo on that misunderstanding and trying to push forward the fact that she was a victim in this but absolutely not we see this we saw it with the west we see it in other cases and actually studies show and it's reflected in the testimony of fred and rose west victims that 93 of victims i think i read in one study said that when it was a male and a female perpetrator as sex offenders against them that 93 of victims said that it was

the woman who was the worst aggressor we can assume that that was the case here we just don't know because none of their victims survived to tell us that. But we could assume that Myra was even worse than Brady. Wasn't it when she was in Holloway that they let her out to go on the moors and point out where the bodies are? That's so much attention on her. So I think she's saving the last two because she died of emphysema or something, didn't she?

I think she was saving it till later on because she died of emphysema or something didn't she like i think she was saving it till later on because she knew if she said i can show you where the last two bodies are they would let her out again this is the thing i think it was very conflicting because if she was just genuinely remorseful and wanted to put things right wouldn't she just say where pauline and keith's bodies were and if it was like she genuinely rediscovered her religion she was back into catholicism in a big way and she had true guilt and she was genuinely seeking atonement for her crimes why wouldn't she tell police about Pauline and Keith exactly Brady was the one to tell them albeit for very very different reasons some like Keatley unbelievably claim that Brady

was remorseful I think we've covered this pretty extensively he was a psychopath he has was remorseful. I think we've covered this pretty extensively. He was a psychopath. He has no remorse. But this really is so pretentious I can barely say it. But when Brady was in prison, he wrote a book in 2001 called The Gates of Janners. I can't give a straight face. Okay. And you can buy this book. It's out there. Is that what you want for Christmas? Fuck no. If there is anyone in any doubt about how much of a pretentious twat wanker Brady was, Janus is a two-faced god from ancient Roman mythology who presides over the beginning and the ending of conflicts.

And there are a set of gates in Rome named the Gates of Janus, which were opened when a war began and closed when peace was declared. He genuinely thinks he is like the destroyer of worlds. He genuinely thinks that he is so important and that his way of thinking is so other to anything that anyone else is capable of that he's like, okay that his way of thinking is so other to anything that anyone

else is capable of that he's like okay guys i'm in prison but this is how you run the world this is how you do it he sees himself as like a cosmic super villain and he's not that's exactly he's just a fucking sick sex offender child rapist murderer's nothing special. He's just a freak. The way he explores it in this book is like in the guise of serial killers. So he's trying to connect this two-faced god of beginning and ending conflicts with himself as a serial killer. And I haven't read it. I probably won't read it it but I bet it's done so clumsily like I really think he is totally incapable of original thought and in this book Brady says that remorse was a private and personal thing not something to be made into a public circus making things

into a public circus is literally his favorite thing to do. That is such bullshit. As ridiculous as it may sound, this is what his supporters, like people like Keatley, use to claim proof of remorse. But it's just not. Just because he writes a book about a Roman god that also incorporates serial killers and says that remorse should be a private, penitent act, that doesn't mean he's remorseful. That's just a cover-up.

Winnie Johnson, Keith Bennett's mother, begged Brady and Hindley until her death in 2012 to tell her where her son was buried, but they never said a word. And I really think that even if you think remorse is an under-the-cover-of-darkness-alone type situation, if you are remorseful, you are telling that mother where her son is. Absolutely.

So coming on to Myra's time in prison, Myra Hindley died at the West Suffolk Hospital in Bury St Edmunds on the 15th of November 2002, after 36 years in jail, making her at the time the longest-serving female prisoner in Britain. She was 60 years old. During her time in prison, Myra had transformed herself. whether truly or only superficially as a matter of opinion. She took up hobbies like badminton, pottery and tapestry. She even studied for an open university degree in humanities. But many prisoners and prison officers continue to insist that Myra shouldn't be trusted

describing her as cold, calculating and devoid of emotion and quote, an arch manipulator with a massive superiority complex. I think that is the most perfect way to describe Myra Hindley. She really tries to rebrand herself in prison as this kind of wholesome, born again woman who is cultured and educated and as far removed as possible from the monster that she was portrayed throughout the time in the trial and throughout her time in prison. But a psychology professor who reviewed Myra's case even branded her progress as quote a cynical strategy to obtain parole. It's exactly that she's pulling a Bernadette McNeely that's all she's doing. And in 1971 Myra was so desperate to

make her reform clear she ended her relationship with Ian Brady and soon after she fell in love with one of the prison officers and a former nun interesting Patricia Cairns that's pretty convenient isn't it yeah

I just I love I love God again I just really feel like I love God again you used to be a nun didn't you hey Patricia hey that literally sounds like Jez from Peep Show that's literally what he's like I know I said that but now I definitely think not that and that's you know she's just chirps in hard at Patricia she's chirps in the ex-nun 100% she's like that is a sick chirps though if

you can chirps an ex-nun you're doing well there's a sick chirps and a sexy rosary. Do you want to see mine? And Cairns, she was so into it. She got really, she like went really in on it with Hindley. It's that rosary comparing. I mean, powerless to resist. What a line. Do you want to see my wimple? And Cairns, she even helped Hindley, and this is 100% true,

with an incredibly stupid escape attempt that was thwarted. If this isn't Myra Hindley finding someone of influence within the justice system that she can manipulate and try to get herself out of prison, what the fuck is it? Because it's sure as hell not love. And this wasn't all. Myra had a string of affairs with other women in jail, including fellow con Nina Wilde. And she even formed a close relationship with everyone's favourite, Rose West. That is unbelievable. Was she really shagging Rose West? Is that true?

I don't know if they were shagging. It just says like a close relationship. And Rose was, you know, she was a, she could, she went both ways. Yeah, she batted for both teams. I do think it's really interesting. While we've just brought up Rose West and her ability to swing both ways, I think that what Fred and Rose West did far surpasses what Ian and Myra did, but they're just not as famous. And I think that's so interesting.

I was thinking about this the other day. I wonder if it's because even though Fred and Rose West, and I totally agree what they did was like unbelievable, absolutely unbelievable. And they killed many more children than Brady and Hind hindley did but think back to that case they sexually abused a lot of their own children and the girls that they went after came from troubled backgrounds they found them in halfway homes children's homes they took them off the streets and they killed them they went after sex workers they did they went after people and children that sadly nobody cared enough about no one's bothered about their innocence being corrupted because they don't really care about it.

Exactly, and they did it to their own kids, which is also, they are the ones that would be the most outraged by that. But in this case, Brady and Hindley went after five children. I'm sad to say, like, making that comparison between Rose and Fred West's victims, these kids were loved and they were missed and they were part of families. And when they weren't missing, people noticed and they cared.

And I think potentially that's why. That's so true. Actually, I hadn't thought of that before, because the whole thing from the first killing to conviction is a very tight turnaround. It's like we talk about, but always the less dead, the idea of the less dead. And it's sad to say that whenever a victim goes missing, whenever somebody turns up dead, there is a hierarchy in victimology. And these kids are at the top of that. If any of you listeners have any creeping doubts about Myra's renewed self, and maybe she was legitimately trying to turn herself around and make the best of it in prison,

listen to this. One of her tutors in prison, so their job is to improve Myra's life in prison, is to keep her amused and keep her stimulated. But they said, I admire her in that she won't allow herself to just become some sort of cabbage in here. But I do not trust her. She is a scheming woman building up contacts with anyone of influence. And that is exactly what she was doing. With Brady's death last year, some may think that the legacy of Ian Brady and Myra Hindley is over. But I think this story creeped so far into the psyche of Britain

and scarred it so deeply that it will never be over. I think it is the most famous serial killer case in the UK. And there are way worse ones. Way, way, way worse. But this one... Apart from how everyone is obsessed with Jack the Ripper. Anyone who wants to talk to me about Jack the Ripper, just don't because I won't listen.

No. We'll never cover it. I can say that with sterling confidence. We will never do Jack the Ripper. Unless they catch him. Unless they catch him and they're like, oh, this is who it was all along. And it was related to the current royal family. Then maybe we'll do it.

No other reason would we ever do Jack the Ripper. I will only cover it if the plot of the Johnny Depp film From Hell turns out to be true. Great. That is the only time. And it was the Masons all along. There you go, guys. You've got that. That's as good as gold, right?

No, that's as good as gold. That's as good as gold. That's as good as gold. Right. With that ends the two parts on the Moores murders. Thank you guys for coming along with us. We know it wasn't easy listening, but it's such an important, notorious case to cover.

We had to cover it. If you're a new listener, please leave us a little review on the iTunes. We would really appreciate that. You can find us on social media at Red Handed the Pot, at Red Handed the Pot,

at Red Handed the Pod on Twitter and on Instagram. We also have a Facebook discussion group which big up jemma is our new moderator for there thank you so much jemma it's perfect she just does it it's wonderful absolutely have a look at that if you have a moment and also if you would like to help support the show you can do so at www.patreon.com slash red handed where for just as little as a dollar a month you can help support us and it just means so much to us all right thank you very much please join us next week

where we will be doing i have no idea but we'll pull something out as always this is just how reactive we are just like what are we gonna do no one knows especially not me we'll figure it out and we'll see you then join us then we'll see you next week bye you don't believe in ghosts i get it lots of people don't believe in ghosts? I get it. Lots of people don't. I didn't either, until I came face to face with them. Ever since that moment, hauntings, spirits, and the unexplained have consumed my entire life.

I'm Nadine Bailey. I've been a ghost tour guide for the past 20 years. I've taken people along with me into the shadows, uncovering the macabre tales that linger in the darkness. And inside some of the most haunted houses, hospitals, prisons, and more. Join me every week on my podcast, Haunted Canada, as we journey through terrifying and bone-chilling stories of the unexplained. Search for Haunted Canada on

Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you find your favorite podcasts. He was hip-hop's biggest mogul, the man who redefined fame, fortune, and the music industry. The first male rapper to be honored on the Hollywood Walk of Fame, Sean Diddy Cone. Diddy built an empire and lived a life most people only dream about. Everybody know ain't no party like a Diddy party, so. Yeah, that's what's up. But just as quickly as his empire rose, it came crashing down. Today I'm announcing the unsealing of a three-count indictment,

charging Sean Combs with racketeering conspiracy, sex trafficking, interstate transportation for prostitution. I was f***ed up. I hit rock bottom, but I made no excuses. I'm disgusted. I'm so sorry. Until you're wearing an orange jumpsuit, it's not real. Now it's real. From his meteoric rise to his shocking fall from grace, from law and crime, this is the rise and fall of Diddy. Listen to the rise and fall of Diddy exclusively with Wondery Plus.