RedHanded - Episode 62 - The Sims Family Murders

Episode Date: September 20, 2018

In 1966 Robert, Helen and Joy Sims were murdered in a grim “Strangers” style slaying in their home in Tallahassee, Florida. Nothing was taken from the house, nothing was left behind, ther...e was no sign of forced entry and no one reported seeing anyone suspicious in the area - police were stumped. But massive overkill on 12 year old Joy Sims suggests that not only was she the intended target, but that this was personal. Join the girls this week as the delve into the coldest of cold cases with a little help from a former attorney closely connected with the Sims case...   See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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Starting point is 00:00:00 Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to Red Handed early and ad-free. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. They say Hollywood is where dreams are made. A seductive city where many flock to get rich, be adored, and capture America's heart. But when the spotlight turns off, fame, fortune, and lives can disappear in an instant. Follow Hollywood and Crime, The Cotton Club Murder on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Saruti.
Starting point is 00:00:34 I'm Hannah. And welcome to Red Handed. The murder of the Sims family is a total mystery with a long list of suspects, some motive and bags of opportunity. But this case is so cold that it has been sitting in the impossible fridge of the Tallahassee Sheriff's Office for over 50 years and it has never been solved. And when I first looked at this one, it seemed really straightforward and a bit sort of what's all the fuss about. But honestly, trying to untangle everything has turned my brain to scrambled eggs. This one is a classic small town murder.
Starting point is 00:01:12 And it has stuck with the people of Tallahassee, which is Florida's state capital, for so long. Because murder in the suburbs in the 60s was basically unheard of. It's never been solved. So whoever the killer is, they are still walking around, possibly still living their life. They've never been brought to justice. And there is something about these cases, these real hometowners that make people feel much more uncomfortable than big city killings. Tallahassee is pretty small too. The population in the 60s was just 42,000 people. And by the end of the 70s, this had grown to 78,000. In the 60s, the general mentality was that nice people lived in the suburbs
Starting point is 00:01:51 and scary, horrible murderers lived in cities. But then, scary, horrible murders started happening in the houses in the suburbs. And this marks a really interesting turning point in the United States, and in Britain too. The current County Sheriff of Leon County, Mike Wood, told WCTV in April 2015, we woke up one morning and all of a sudden we were in an evil world. Honestly, give me a break. It's so dramatic. And not to like do this case down or anything, but it's one murder.
Starting point is 00:02:21 It's an isolated incident. You're not living in murder town. We'll see this as we go on as well. But they put so much emphasis on this case being the reason that like Tallahassee went to shit or whatever. And I just don't buy it. I don't. Everyone has been in an evil world since the beginning of the world. This is because a nice white family in the suburbs, people that looked like him, people that went to church with him, were murdered.
Starting point is 00:02:44 When it happens in the inner city, it doesn't matter because it can't touch me. This is because these were people that mattered. Let's be honest. These were people who mattered that were murdered. And again and again, like Hannah said, this case is referred to as the moment that Tallahassee lost its innocence. I mean, so dramatic. It's a lot. It's a lot. It's just, it's kind of like a bit toe-curling. But I suspect that rather than this murder bringing about the winds of change, the shift in feeling probably had a lot more to do with the industrialisation of the town centre
Starting point is 00:03:14 and the Civil Rights Act being signed in 1965. Yeah, I think that was a pretty significant factor. Absolutely. That is like completely cutting off at the knees what a lot of people would have been thinking was the status quo. This is how it is. These are the people that matter. This is justice, etc, etc. And all of that changed. And we this changed in Eltham, the loss of innocence was blamed on people of colour moving into the area. Although this case left an indelible mark on the people of Tallahassee, I do wonder if it was actually the murder itself or the dismantling of the Jim Crow laws that contributed to the people of Florida's sense of unease. Tallahassee was so ill at ease that women walked around, get this, with water pistols filled with ammonia.
Starting point is 00:04:10 What? What a weird thing to think of as well, as if that's your first go-to, where I suppose they didn't have mace or whatever, but ammonia is so extreme. It's just so weird. And apparently they were so freaked out, Halloween was cancelled.
Starting point is 00:04:23 And I really think in Europe, in the UK,lloween it's becoming more and more of a thing but like i cannot understate how much i have realized how big of a thing halloween is in the states because i work with americans like almost exclusively work with north americans and i was like oh yeah we'll just do it the last week of october how's that work oh you can't do it then. It's Halloween. What? What? I have never been trick or treating. No. I only started to do Halloweeny type stuff when I was old enough to drink and dress up like a slutty something. That's it. It's for kids and for young adults who want to get laid. I think, but that speaks to how like they were so troubled by this that Halloween was cancelled. Do you know what I mean? It struck a chord. So what actually happened in Tallahassee in 1966? And this is a bit more of a difficult
Starting point is 00:05:09 question than it usually is. This case is so famous and it's been reported on for years and years and there seems to be a lot of journalistic Chinese whispers when you look at the case now. Names are misreported constantly and loads of details are changed over the years in different reports, which can make it a little bit more difficult to figure out what actually happened. But we are lucky because we've managed to get in touch with lawyer and Tallahassee native Jeremy Mutt, who has sent us loads of information on this case that he gathered when he researched the case in 2016. So massive thank you to Jeremy, he's really helped us out with this one. But there's
Starting point is 00:05:45 another thing that's tough to get your head around. The investigation into this case spans decades and new suspects pop up every 10 years. So compiling all of the information over so many years is no mean feat. Speaking to Jeremy Mutz, we have managed to clear up loads of inconsistencies that we found. So we think, according to the research that we've done, what Jeremy sent us, what's already out there, this is what we think really happened. On the 22nd of October 1966, most of the people of Tallahassee were watching Florida State University
Starting point is 00:06:18 play football against Mississippi State. And as we have come across before in the Oklahoma Girl Scouts murders, again, if you haven't listened to that episode, go back and listen to it. University football games may be of little to no interest here in the UK, but apparently in the US, especially in the South, they are very serious business. Serious enough to be filmed and for the commentary to be played on the radio. I just can't get my head around it. Is it because though, in the UK, can you get, you can't get a scholarship to go to university because you're good at football, can you? Yeah, you can. But it's, you can go to like, sporty unis like Loughborough. You can get a scholarship to go to Loughborough, but not like, probably anywhere else, maybe?
Starting point is 00:07:00 I think you can probably get a rowing scholarship to go to Oxford or something like that. But it's not in the same way, like a football scholarship, you can go anywhere, I think. can probably get a rowing scholarship to go to Oxford or something like that. But it's not in the same way, like a football scholarship. You can go anywhere, I think. In the States. Yeah, but I could. Maybe I'm wrong. And I'm sure that people will tell me. But maybe you can in the UK have a football scholarship for something.
Starting point is 00:07:16 But it's not something I've ever heard of. No, it's not something I've ever heard of. So I kind of feel like because those guys are genuinely competing for that. There's money in college football in the States. So it's big business. And they're like genuinely something to go be seen. Here I feel like, did you ever go watch a football match when you were at university? It's literally 22 people that are fucking hanging out their arses.
Starting point is 00:07:36 I don't know. Is it a thing? Like, who, what grown up is going to watch that? I don't know. I think it's probably, from what I understand, the professional football system in the US is directly funneled through the university system. Like they go and watch them to scout out the next generation of talent and stuff. Anyway, why we're so far off track talking about football academies and things we have no business talking about. So back to the
Starting point is 00:08:00 story. Dr. Robert Sims and his wife Helen had a vested interest, however, in the game. Not only did they live in Tallahassee and attend Florida State, but they were from Meridian, Mississippi. Having said that, they were not actually at the game. They were at home with their youngest daughter, 12-year-old Joy Lynn, listening to the game on their radio. The couple had two other daughters, Jeannie, who was 17, and Judy, who was 16. And this family, the Sims family, they were very well respected. God-fearing. Just, I love that phrase. I just find it so, like, I also really enjoy how it denotes, like, a worthy person. Oh, they're really God-fearing. He's a God-fearing man, Marion. He's a good man because he's scared of God.
Starting point is 00:08:40 Yeah. Not because it's just good to be good. But anyway, these people, they were, they were God-fearing good people. And Helen was the secretary for the First Baptist Church in Tallahassee, which was a very sought-after position in the community. And this also meant that everybody knew exactly who Helen was. Helen was 34 and her husband Robert was 42. Despite their age difference, which I suppose I guess was like pretty normal for the time and place, Helen and Robert were inseparable. I want that. You want that? To be inseparable?
Starting point is 00:09:11 I don't know. I think I'm... Actually, that's quite suffocating probably. I need quite a lot of time on my own. Just a nice boy. But to also be on my own for quite a lot of that time would be great. A nice boy exclusively only for the times I don't want to be on my own. 100%.
Starting point is 00:09:24 That's the dream situation. Isn't that what everybody's looking the times I don't want to be on my own. A hundred percent. That's the dream situation. Isn't that what everybody's looking for? I think that's what everyone's looking for. These two, they are living that perfect life for the time. They had a very happy family life. They lived in their modest yet middle-class suburban house at 641 Muriel Court. And they'd lived there since 1961. Their house was particularly popular with
Starting point is 00:09:45 other neighbourhood kids because the Sims family back garden backed onto a ravine that had a tree swing. I fucking loved a tree swing when I was a kid. I actually was walking my dog the other day and went to where the tree swing used to be when we were kids to see if it was still there but it's gone and that was a really sad moment for me. And there was also a wooded area nearby. And you do get the impression, well I have anyway from reading about this, the neighbourhood that the Sims family lived in kind of seems like the Edward Scissorhands neighbourhood, in that, like, all the houses look the same, everyone dresses similarly, everyone knows everyone and everyone is all up in everyone else's business all the time.
Starting point is 00:10:21 That's just how it feels. It's just suburbia though, isn't it? Especially 1960s suburbia. That's what it is. I guess that's kind of what Edward Scissorhands, that's probably why it harks back to that V because Edward Scissorhands is like a satirical look. Yeah, isn't it? That's a really good point. So Jeannie and Judy, the two eldest Sims children, were not actually at home on the night of the 22nd of October 1966. They were both out babysitting, presumably for parents who were at the football game,
Starting point is 00:11:09 and FSU won 10-0, dad or little sister anywhere. Jeannie walked through the house calling out, but still she found nothing. A bit concerned now, Jeannie started to do a second loop of the house. This time she went into each room as she went past looking for her family. When she reached the master bedroom, she found what she was looking for. Her father, Robert Sims, her mother, Helen Sims, and her 12-year-old sister, Joy Lynn, were all inside, bound and gagged. Robert Sims was sat on a chair and had been shot in the head. Helen and Joy Lynn were both lying on the floor. Helen had been shot in the head and in the leg. She had also been stabbed. Joy Lynn, and remember she's a 12-year-old girl, had been stabbed six times in the chest, much more than her mother. And one of the stab wounds had pierced her heart. What became of Joy Lynn is the greatest point of contention when it came to reporting on the crime scene.
Starting point is 00:11:55 Later reports stated that Joy Lynn had been found with her underwear pulled down and her nightie pulled up, suggesting that she had been sexually assaulted as well as stabbed multiple times. But Jeremy Mutz, our man on the ground, has confirmed that this is actually false. But somehow, more chillingly, her underwear isn't pulled down, her nightie isn't pulled up, but there were bloody handprints on the inside of Joy Lynn's thighs. That's fucking terrifying. And it's also such overkill, stabbing her so many times.
Starting point is 00:12:27 She's a 12-year-old girl. You didn't need to stab her 12 times to subdue or to kill her. That is fucking overkill. And what do we know about overkill? That's personal, right? That's the thing about when you first look at the crime scene, there's not much passion in the killing of Helen and Robert, but when it comes to the little girl
Starting point is 00:12:45 that's where it's really violent exactly so it does seem like this is a personal attack to me it doesn't feel like an execution no and also exactly as you said when there's multiple murders in like a you know in a case like this where three people have been killed you have to look at the person that had the most violence inflicted on them as they are probably the reason for the crime. Joy Lynn seems to have been the target. But apparently no evidence of sexual activity was found. But I think no evidence in the 60s is very different to no evidence now. The handprints that were found on her thighs were small, making it more likely that they were left by a woman.
Starting point is 00:13:25 And when we're talking about no evidence of sexual assault, what they mean is that no semen was found on Joy Lynn's body. Does that mean that Joy Lynn wasn't sexually interfered with in some way by the perpetrators? Absolutely not. But in 66, DNA testing was in its absolute infancy. It wouldn't make its way to the courtroom until 1986. So it certainly wasn't available in 1966 in Florida. So with nothing else to test, I guess that no semen meant no sexual assault back then.
Starting point is 00:13:54 And all three family members were bound and gagged, but with like household items like ties and socks and stockings and underwear. It's so funny, always there this is an American case. So everywhere they say they were tied with neckties. Why do they call it neckties? Like what is not a necktie? Well, I don't know what a not necktie is. Like it's just a tie, surely. Like you don't have like an arm tie, foot tie, ear tie. I just want to make it really clear where it's going, Hannah. What, in case someone's like, oh, it's a dick tie. Good. But yeah, so again, this, I think, kind of lends a bit of credence to the fact that there's probably
Starting point is 00:14:29 not an execution or a hit. The person that did this didn't come prepared with like a kill kit. They were absolutely opportunistic killers. They did bring a gun with them. But apart from that, they didn't seem to bring anything else to deal with who was going to be in their house. Helen and Robert had been blindfolded. And astonishingly, when Jeannie walked in that night and found them, they were not dead. And if you or I were Jeannie Sims walking into that situation, if we found our family like that, I mean, we call it an ambulance. But we don't live in 1966 Tallahassee. Where apparently the funeral parlor and the ambulance service were one in the same thing that is so fucking terrifying isn't it it's like oh
Starting point is 00:15:10 someone is bleeding but they're not actually dead let me call the undertaker anyway so yeah she does exactly that and genie called the undertakers to help with her still alive parents which yeah it's just so hideous but i guess tallahassee they're being just super efficient and cutting out the middleman but like what when you call the undertakers it's literally just a funeral director that comes it's not a fucking paramedic oh i could probably help you with some embalming but staunching some bleeding probably not i'm not your guy but then at the same time like isn't it like ridiculously expensive to call an ambulance in the states oh yeah like people will be in car accidents and be like no ambulance yeah just take me there fuck that's insane rule number one here
Starting point is 00:15:48 is do not touch that person until the ambulance arrives anyway so in this case the undertakers slash first responders were father and son russell and rocky bevins rocky bevins that is just isn't it the most hysterical name i can i see it as like a young cool guy but now he's like in his like 70s and he's got white hair. That's still such a cute name for an old guy. I kind of feel like Rocky's the kind of name that is a cute name as a baby. It's a cool name when you're a man. And it's an adorable name again when you're an old man.
Starting point is 00:16:15 That's a good point, actually. There you go. Put it on the list for your kid. Like, you're about to have one imminently. I don't know why I said that. Don't tempt fate, please. Oh, God. So anyway,
Starting point is 00:16:30 Russell and Rocky Bevins were on the scene in minutes. They are fast moving undertakers. Yeah, it's a fast horse. But they were still not quick enough, sadly, because reportedly Robert Sims died before they could arrive. How they knew that he was alive in the first place is a little bit beyond me. Because what? Did Jeannie,ie like this teenager check if her dad was still breathing like i don't know because surely the only evidence that they have to suggest that robert was alive when she came home was genie saying that he was but she literally just like walked into an absolute horror show where her entire family had been fucking brutally murdered how or like at least brutally attacked how reliable can that account she gave really be i don't know it just seems like a weird detail that oh he was alive when
Starting point is 00:17:11 she found him but he died before the ambulance get like how can you possibly confirm that i don't know i guess you just have to take her word for it why would she lie yeah i suppose but i mean it's neither here nor there really but this is another weird detail that has made its way into like many reports of this when russell and rocky get there and they get into the master bedroom where the three uh where helen and robert and joy lynn are russell turns off the light in the master bedroom to protect his son from seeing the scene of the crime which you are literally an undertaker and you're bringing your son out on your night body picking up trips. Surely he's seen his share of dead bodies. And without sounding like a sicko, there's nothing that bad at this crime scene.
Starting point is 00:17:56 Everyone's organs are still on the inside, so I don't really see what his damage is. It's very bizarre. Like, this is honestly one of the strangest things in this story. Why the fuck? damages. It's very bizarre. Like this is honestly one of the strangest things in this story. Why the fuck? Also, I'm sorry, if there's a room full of dead people, the last thing I want you to do is turn the fucking lights off. Oh my god, yeah. Are you serious? Nobody wants to look at a dead body, but then why would you become an undertaker? Then also, don't fucking turn the lights off in a room full of dead people. By the time they get there, it's probably midnight. Oh my god, no.
Starting point is 00:18:24 And literally also, the more practical side of this is they're fucking trampling around over a in a room full of dead people. By the time they get there, it's probably midnight. Oh my God, no. And literally also the more practical side of this is they're fucking trampling around over a crime scene in the dark. Yep, yep, yep, yep. And it does kind of feel like a bit of an added for dramatic effect detail. But anyway, they managed to get all of the Sims family into the hearse slash ambulance.
Starting point is 00:18:40 And apparently they managed that in the dark. Dr. Robert Sims was six foot four and over 200 200 pounds which is 90 kilos or just about 14 stone. So he's a sizable man. It would have taken two people to shift him and it really seems ridiculous to have done that in the dark. But again apart from the disruption of the crime scene this must have caused it isn't super significant. Rocky and Russell managed to get Helen into the hearse slash ambulance in the dark the disruption of the crime scene this must have caused it isn't super significant rocky and russell managed to get helen into the her slash ambulance in the dark and when they made it to the hospital helen was put on a respirator so she's still alive when they get her to hospital and everyone is desperately willing her to live not only for her two daughters but so that she could identify the
Starting point is 00:19:21 people or person who had killed her husband and her 12-year-old child. The hospital even assigned a guard to Helen's door to make sure the killer couldn't come back and finish the job. But Helen didn't make it. The bullet was lodged so deeply in her brain that it couldn't be removed. She never regained consciousness and she never told her story. Because Helen Sims died on Halloween 1966, nine days after she was shot in her own home. None of the bodies of the Sims family displayed any signs of struggle. It really looked like they had all just quietly sat down and let someone murder them.
Starting point is 00:19:57 Robert Sims was a big guy. Six foot four and fucking not skinny. That's a rugby player build, isn't it? If he was really alive when Jeannie found him, that meant that he would have been alive when his daughter was killed and his wife was being shot and stabbed. Why are there no signs of struggle?
Starting point is 00:20:17 Who or what could have been restraining him? Because I don't think a tie and some stockings are going to be enough when his wife and child are on the floor having been attacked and murdered it is very strange because when I first read that I was oh they must have just finished him off first but that's why it's significant if he was alive when Jeannie found him because if he was alive that means he watched or at least was in the room he was in the room when they were doing whatever they were doing to Joy Lynn.
Starting point is 00:20:46 I know, but then it is logical. You break into a house, there's a father, a mother and a child. And especially if the child is the person they're going after, you take out the biggest threat first. They would have tried to kill Robert first. Then, I assume, attacked Helen. Then gone after Joy Lynn. Maybe, yes, he was still alive when Jeannie came home.
Starting point is 00:21:03 But it doesn't mean that he was conscious when Helen and Joy Lynn were being attacked. Yeah, he had been shot in the head, to be Lynn. Maybe, yes, he was still alive when Jeannie came home, but doesn't mean that he was conscious when Helen and Joy Lynn were being attacked. So yeah, he had been shot in the head, to be fair. And also in every interview or article you read on this case, a lot is made of the fact that there is no sign of forced entry into the Sims house, which would indicate that they knew the person or persons who killed them and they just let them walk right in. Except in this case, it obviously doesn't indicate that at all. That's the point they're trying to make whenever they bring up the fact that there's no forced entry but seriously the only other thing they fucking go on about as much as there being no forced entry is the fact that no one in tallahassee locked their fucking doors so what point does this prove it's nothing it doesn't prove anything like it's
Starting point is 00:21:42 literally the whole setup of the story is like, oh, it's so safe. Everyone knows everyone. No one locks their doors. Everyone goes in and feeds, like, the old lady's cat. And then they're like, oh, there was no sign of forced entry. Well, fucking obviously, of course not. There's no need for it. What would be the point of bashing in a window if the door is open?
Starting point is 00:22:00 And that implies that it's somebody who knows the area, who knows the community, knows that the doors are kept unlocked. And I think that resonates throughout this entire case because nobody ever comes forward to report a weird person hanging around the neighborhood. Whoever did this fitted in. They were part of this community. And I think, therefore, that there being no sign of forced entry in the house proves absolutely nothing. Whoever did this could have snuck in the back door or even, just like Jeannie did when she came home at 11.15 that night, walked through the fucking front door. There doesn't seem to have been anything to stop them. Nothing in the house was out of place, which also seems a bit odd. How have these people or person managed to wrestle all three
Starting point is 00:22:39 sims into the bedroom without so much as breaking a glass or knocking off a photo frame. But I guess it's like, you have a gun in your face, your family are there, you'll comply, right? But one thing they did manage to find at the crime scene were beggar's lice. And these are these like sticky burrs from a plant that get stuck on your clothes or your dog really easily. And this could suggest that whoever had come into the Sims' house had come from the wooded area behind it. Like maybe they'd been hiding out in the woods waiting for an opportunity and then come in through the back door.
Starting point is 00:23:10 But is there a real way of knowing when the beggar's lice got there? Not really. I just think they're a total nothing part of this case because they literally also go on about the fact that all the kids in the neighbourhood would come play at this house. Like they come there to play in the back garden. Anybody could have dragged those beggar's lice
Starting point is 00:23:29 through the house. Exactly like I said, you don't even know when they got there. Proofs absolutely nothing. And even if they did come through the back, that proves nothing. And anyway, we'll go on to see how poorly the crime scene was handled in just a bit. But like we said, anyone could have brought those beggar's lice in. They are hardly a smoking gun in this case. So either the Sims went willingly to the bedroom with their captors or there was a pretty decent cleanup afterwards. I don't know. Do you go in, kill people, shoot and stab a bunch of people and then hang around and clean up afterwards? That's very high risk. It is. But in this case, it does seem like maybe somebody did try to do that because blood was found in the sink pipe in the bathroom of the master bedroom which would indicate that
Starting point is 00:24:09 some attempt seems to have been made to clean up which is just that's crazy to me like get the fuck out why are you washing your hands there but whatever cleanup job had gone on it was not enough because complete handprints were left on Joy Lynn. Why wouldn't you get rid of those? I don't know. I don't think they were significant enough that you could extract a fingerprint from them or anything like that. But they're just like very obvious hands. So I don't know why you would leave that. If you're cleaning up other blood, why would you leave that one?
Starting point is 00:24:41 Maybe they couldn't get a fingerprint off them. But like the person doing it wouldn't have known that they couldn't get the fingerprint off that like i don't know would people have had that in their consciousness in 1966 no probably not i don't think like what fucking idiot is going to walk out of a crime scene now having left a bloody finger like bloody handprints and nothing of value was missing either the sims had a really expensive coin collection and just wads of cash lying around and none of it was touched. That is really interesting, I think. Nothing was hidden. They didn't have a safe.
Starting point is 00:25:12 They just had money lying around and none of it was taken. I think that is like such a poignant part of this story. Everything when you start to put it together, the attack on Joy Lin, the fact that none of the money was touched. This should have started to narrow for the police what type of intruder or what type of murderer they had. But it doesn't really seem to have been the case as we'll go on to find out. William Joyce, the Leon County Sheriff at the time of the murder, said that not even an ashtray was moved. So it wasn't a robbery gone wrong because I think with a lot of home invasions that is the case. But that's not what would happen here.
Starting point is 00:25:43 Whoever was in the Sims family home that night came in there to kill. And this is where the proper treatment of the crime scene ends. And what happens next could either be fuck up due to ignorance or a cunning cover up. I do feel like we talk about that a lot. Ignorance versus cover up. I know recently with Danny Casolaro and also with the Mark Dutroux case that we did last week. Isn't it funny? Because I was thinking about this afterwards and I was like, do we give these police departments and the government way too much credit for doing cover-ups? These people
Starting point is 00:26:14 are fucking incompetent in a lot of ways. How are they able to run around just doing cover-ups? I think it's more shit police work and then covering that up rather than covering up a conspiracy. Because what happens next is truly astonishing by our standards now. Possibly in 1966 in a small town, maybe not. But loads of people in the neighbourhood, after hearing the bad news, came to the Sims house. To do what, I'm not sure. There seems to be the peak of nosy neighbourhood, but maybe I'm just being a bitch and perhaps they were just checking on Jeannie and Judy. Who knows?
Starting point is 00:26:46 But what they were definitely doing was disturbing the crime scene of a murder investigation. I read in one place that up to a thousand people went to the house, which I do not think can be true. But I think it was just a lot. A lot of people went into the house, walked around, smoked fags, had coffee. There was no way an investigator could tell the difference between anything that may have been used by the killers and what was just left lying around by the neighbours. That is unbelievable. I think we can be very critical of the sheriff's office and the police department in this case. But I think there's just no doubt that neither of them had dealt with a case like this before. So people argued that letting the whole
Starting point is 00:27:29 town trample through the crime scene in the hours after a triple homicide was just small town ignorance and maybe it is but the more conspiracy minded argue that this was allowed to happen by the sheriff's office they had a vested interest in any incriminating evidence being unusable or disappearing completely i personally think it's the first one i'm inclined to agree with you there and also larry campbell who's the lead investigator he goes on to be sheriff when he's older he was 25 when this happened and this is his it's his first murder case it's the first one the town's ever seen, apparently. And also, I just think, okay, if I were going to be that sheriff
Starting point is 00:28:08 or that police department and I wanted evidence to be unusable or to disappear completely, yes, allowing a thousand people or whatever to trample through the house would absolutely make that happen, but it would draw a lot of fucking attention to my shit poor ability to investigate a case.
Starting point is 00:28:24 And that's not what you want if you're conducting a fucking conspiracy you want it to be under the radar you want things to just disappear you don't want anybody to call into question your ability to conduct an investigation you want everything to look above board while things disappear beneath the surface so this would have been stupid anyway if that's what they had been trying to do do you know what if this happened if this happened now the crime scene would have been treated very differently but the fact that the crime scene was treated so poorly is is the cause for the rest of what happens with the case like because there is no starting point because you can't extract anything
Starting point is 00:28:59 from the crime scene. That's true again I feel like that comes down to their ignorance and their total lack of experience in dealing with a case like this. So what did they do? I mean, it's not like they didn't try because the police questioned the entire neighbourhood. They woke them up in the middle of the night by knocking on their doors and asked them if they had seen or heard anything untoward. OK, poor dealing of the crime scene. But they're canvassing. They're knocking on doors. They're asking the right question. But no one had seen anything. Not so much as an unfamiliar car, except one neighbor, Nancy Ripper. And she claimed that she had heard a high-pitched scream that sounded like a child coming from
Starting point is 00:29:34 the Sims house at 10.30pm. But she said that it sounded playful, so she didn't raise the alarm. I'm sorry, even if it hadn't sounded playful, a kid screaming, like, why would you raise the alarm anyway? I guess she remembered. And obviously, if I heard the kid next door screaming, and then the next day, the family had been murdered, I would say something. But I guess it's helpful that she put out a timeline that does kind of make sense. Yeah, but I wouldn't even clock the time. I'd be like, oh, shut up. It's a lot of watch watching going on in this story. Oh, yeah, that's fucking full of it. I suppose 66 says fuck all else to do.
Starting point is 00:30:06 Look at the time. So after questioning the neighbours in the middle of the night and getting nowhere, they've got a useless crime scene and no Helen Sims to point the finger. So the Leon County Police Department and the Sheriff's Office were absolutely stumped. Every person who had come within spitting distance of the Sims family over the past few months were called in for police questioning.
Starting point is 00:30:25 Search dogs were brought in and the pond behind the Sims house was drained looking for the murder weapon. But nothing happened and nothing was found. The pressure on the police department must have been huge. After all, this is a well-known, well-respected family in a small town and the police department and the sheriff's office were consistently coming up with nothing. The people of Tallahassee did not feel safe in their own homes and nothing was being resolved.
Starting point is 00:30:49 Halloween was cancelled to stop children from being out at night for fear that the killer was still lurking in the neighbourhood. And it didn't help that the police department and Sheriff William Joyce were constantly fighting about who should lead on the case either. The investigator's next move is certainly a desperate one. The police tracked down, and this is 100% true, because this is like the kind of basic bitch thing that people say. They're like, oh, the kind of stuff I've been looking at, I'm going to end up on a list. This is what happened in this case, because the police tracked down everyone who had checked out of the library the book In Cold Blood by Truman Capote. Yes, you heard right. I lost my mind when I read that.
Starting point is 00:31:31 I was like, this cannot be real. This cannot be a real thing that investigators were like, yep, this is a solid choice to the library. I just felt like they were so desperate. And I feel like now, like, come on, having an interest in true crime is just like so mainstream, I can't even. But back in the 1960s, I can imagine that this would have been very, very taboo to be reading that book. And seriously, they went and found all the people that checked
Starting point is 00:31:56 that book out of the library. And this is a stretch. But like, if we're asking why they even made this connection, the book details the murder of the Clutter family, which bears very little similarity to the Sims family murder at all, apart from the fact that I guess both cases involve a family being shot in their homes. But they are really, really clutching at straws here. What the fuck? It's like they've just been like, murder, someone else must have done a murder.
Starting point is 00:32:22 Who else has done a murder? Let's find a book on a murder. They are so clueless, it feels like they've just been like, murders, someone else must have done a murder. Who else has done a murder? Let's find a book on a murder. Like, they are so clueless, it feels like they're just desperate. And yeah, the pressure must have been intense because law enforcement attempted to cover their lack of progress by explaining that because of the football game and the North Florida Fair being held in Tallahassee on the same night, there were just way more people in town than usual and therefore the list of potential murderers was endless. But honestly, if they had taken better care of the crime scene, maybe they wouldn't have had to sink to library books and state fair excuses. The police may not have made any great strides, but the Tallahassee Gossip Factory definitely had...
Starting point is 00:32:59 Which I think is an excellent name for a band, by the way. Tallahassee Gossip Factory. I think you should start one. You were in a band, weren't you, Hannah? You still won't sing for me. No, I won't. I will not. The Tallahassee Gossip Factory in this story definitely had their own ideas. Because remember that Helen was the secretary of the First Baptist Church,
Starting point is 00:33:17 a very well-known woman in the community. And if you remember, had managed to secure a very sought-after role. Well, she had actually resigned just days before she was murdered. The pastor of the church was Cecil Albert Roberts, but everybody called him C.A. Oh. Mm-hmm.
Starting point is 00:33:35 I imagine the pastor of a Baptist church in Florida in the 60s was a pretty powerful position to be in. There's just something about C.A. There's something about ca oh something about initials as a first name that make me a bit uncomfortable that's not just not even a usual like a cj name like i'm not on board with it but it's better than ca yeah so it's not really acceptable i don't think and like so many other religiousA. had a bit of a reputation for being a ladies' man, whatever that means, because one person's ladies' man is another's lecherous pig. I guess the only thing we can say is maybe it's better off than like a lot of other religious leaders who are little children's men instead.
Starting point is 00:34:19 At least he was sticking to grown women rather than children. And by all accounts, it does sound like, you you know as we go on to find out it was mutual yeah but there were rumors that ca had made advances towards helen that she had declined and this had made her feel so uncomfortable that she felt she had no choice but to resign her position as church secretary but the tallahassee gossip factory reckon that this made ca so angry that he killed helen and her husband and her daughter. But this is just gossip. There's no evidence that CA ever made any moves on Helen. But honestly, what would that evidence look like? Helen's dead and it's not like he's going to say, yeah, I definitely did
Starting point is 00:34:58 that. So I don't really see how you can be like, oh no, he definitely didn't make any moves on her because how would anyone know that? But anyway, this rumour was fuelled by CA referring to Helen Sims by her first name during her memorial service, which in the 60s in the South was a very intimate thing to do. Scandalous. Yeah, it kind of reminds me of, like, calling your teacher by their first name or something. I'm still in touch with a couple of my teachers from school
Starting point is 00:35:24 and I can't call them anything other than... Oh, yeah. I can't call them by their first name. Oh. I'm still in touch with a couple of my teachers from school and I can't call them anything other than... Oh, yeah. I can't call them by their first name. Oh, my God, no. Absolutely not. And then it just made me think about when you call your teacher mum in school and you just get mercilessly ripped to shreds for the rest of your life. Oh, did that happen to you? Oh, so many times, man.
Starting point is 00:35:37 I remember it so clearly. Just like my stomach sinking and just being like, no. Oh, dear. You must have called your teacher mum you must have done never none of them look like my mom no fine just me anyway this scandalized everyone in tallahassee this first name calling i can just imagine the pearl clutching that would have happened at the memorial other people in tallahassee speculated that ca was actually having affairs with a whole host of married women.
Starting point is 00:36:11 And because Helen was the secretary of the church and around all the time, she knew about all of them. And in this version of the rumours, CA kills Helen and her family to keep them from blabbing to the whole town, which seems a bit extreme. And I also kind of feel like, I'm sorry, the Catholic church that was just like, oh, you've been sexually abusing children. That's fine. We'll just move you to another parish, church, oh, you've been sexually abusing children. That's fine. We'll just move you to another parish, church, whatever, without telling anybody. But he's been having affairs with other women and that's enough to kill for. Oh, fuck off. He's not Catholic, though. He's a Baptist.
Starting point is 00:36:35 Oh, do you think they wouldn't have, they would have done something different? No, not really. I just find that really hard to believe that having mutual affairs with married women yes of course it's scandalous that that would have been enough to kill for but like years and years and years of like rampant sex abuse no exactly and also he's like he's a hot shot pastor as well like he was like tallahassee man of the year and like all of this shit he was a big deal so they would have uh they would have sorted him out i I think. Yeah, exactly. Big dick on church. Big dick on church, sorry. But this version of events does hold a little bit more weight than the first round of rumours
Starting point is 00:37:11 because after the murders, the police department received multiple calls from multiple church-going women assuring the officers that they had nothing to do with Helen's murder. Can you imagine that being your first port of call? So say you've been shagging the bishop or whatever, and then someone in your town dies, and your first reaction is to ring the police and say, it wasn't me, I promise. You're fucking stupid.
Starting point is 00:37:34 Don't call the police and tell them it wasn't you. Just don't say anything. Unless you're listening and you have committed a murder, go confess. Go confess. But these rumours... You don't believe in ghosts? I get it. Lots of people don't. I didn't either until I came face to face with them.
Starting point is 00:38:06 Ever since that moment, hauntings, spirits, and the unexplained have consumed my entire life. I'm Nadine Bailey. I've been a ghost tour guide for the past 20 years. I've taken people along with me into the shadows, uncovering the macabre tales that linger in the darkness and inside some of the most haunted houses, hospitals, prisons, and more. Join me every week on my podcast, Haunted Canada, as we journey through terrifying and bone-chilling stories of the unexplained.
Starting point is 00:38:34 Search for Haunted Canada on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you find your favorite podcasts. They say Hollywood is where dreams are made. A seductive city where many flock to get rich, be adored, and capture America's heart. But when the spotlight turns off, fame, fortune, and lives can disappear in an instant. When TV producer Roy Radin was found dead in a canyon near LA in 1983, there were many questions surrounding his death. The last person seen with him was Lainey Jacobs, a seductive cocaine dealer who desperately wanted to be part of the Hollywood elite.
Starting point is 00:39:18 Together, they were trying to break into the movie industry. But things took a dark turn when a million dollars worth of cocaine and cash went missing. From Wondery comes a new season of the hit show Hollywood and Crime, The Cotton Club Murder. Follow Hollywood and Crime, The Cotton Club Murder on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge all episodes of The Cotton Club Murder early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus. Harvard is the oldest and richest university in America. But when a social media-fueled fight over Harvard and its new president broke out last fall,
Starting point is 00:39:57 that was no protection. Claudine Gay is now gone. We've exposed the DEI regime, and there's much more to come. This is The Harvard Plan, a special series from the Boston Globe and WNYC's On The Media. To listen, subscribe to On The Media wherever you get your podcasts. Are just rumors. Because CA has a pretty cast-iron alibi. Because he was at the football game. Because, and I can't get my head around this either
Starting point is 00:40:26 he was the chaplain for the fsu football team why does a football team need a chaplain i was going to ask you the same question why to pray for them to win i don't know i mean to get jesus on side i don't know but then presumably the other team also have a chaplain so that do they have like a chaplain off at half time where they throw prayers at each other like Pokemon? It's just who's praying harder. Who's got more faith. Who prays harder. Yeah, that's it.
Starting point is 00:40:51 Having a pray off. Absolutely. If your faith isn't strong enough, FSU just aren't going to win. He's just on the sidelines and he's sweating blood. So not only was CA at the game, and I wish I could stop calling him CA, but I can remember his actual name anymore oh it's worse it's Cecil please let's call him Cecil I'm gonna call him Cecil Cecil is CA so not only was Cecil at the game he is clearly visible in the video footage of him on the sidelines for the entirety of the first and second halves but he is invisible however during halftime.
Starting point is 00:41:26 And some people, I'm guessing the Tallahassee gossip factory, speculated that he had run off to do the murders and come back for the second half, missing out on the orange slices. But there's just no way that he could have had enough time to do this, surely. No, absolutely not. There's absolutely no way. No. This alibi may... Even with all his prayers, he couldn't have made it.
Starting point is 00:41:46 No, I just don't think he could have. But this alibi may have put Cecil in the clear with the police, but it certainly didn't stop the gossip mongers in Tallahassee. He was constantly blamed for the Sims family murders and eventually he resigned as pastor and moved to another town. Larry Campbell, the lead investigator in the case, stated, There's no doubt in my mind that C.A. had nothing whatsoever to do with the murders. He was just a victim of circumstance and his own foibles.
Starting point is 00:42:14 What? Poor Cecil and his foibles. He's a victim of his foibles. Aren't we all? He's a victim of being a womanizer. He's hoisted by his own petard. I feel like we're all victims of our own foibles. That's really like, it's not proven anything.
Starting point is 00:42:27 Don't defend him. I do really enjoy saying that word though. I know, victim of his own foibles. Like, Larry, if you come out there to help your mate out, you're not helping him. This was just another dead end. Until another lead reared its head. In the weeks after the murders,
Starting point is 00:42:43 Robert House was driving his new wife Peggy from Tallahassee to Alligator Point for their honeymoon. Alligator Point sounds like the most Florida place in the world. Why are people honeymooning in a place called Alligator Point? Florida is a very confusing place, I think. According to Peggy, Robert House took this opportunity to explain to her how he was the one who had murdered the Sims family. He told Peggy that he had met Helen at the supermarket and they'd had a falling out about something really petty and then he followed her home to find out where she lived so he could return at night and kill her and her whole family. He's like a grown-up fucking Pugsley from the
Starting point is 00:43:18 Addams family. We're going on honeymoon to fucking Alligator Point. I am the most menacing man you've ever met. I've trapped you into this marriage and on the way there I drive past a murder house and tell you how I was the one who killed all those people. But he wasn't the only one because lots of men in Tallahassee confessed to the murders and we do see this a lot. It's a weird phenomenon but confessing toms do happen. Nevertheless Peggy felt like he was serious so she went to the police and she told them what her husband had said. And then the police agreed to bug Peggy's house to catch Robert House confessing. But they never got this far because Robert House was tipped off by his daughter and the whole operation fell apart.
Starting point is 00:43:59 After looking into the house marriage, though, it would appear that Robert House was super abusive and his confession to killing the sims family was just another threat to peggy it was sort of like i'll kill you just like i killed them kind of situation but house was called in for police questioning anyway and as his fingerprints were not found at the scene and he passed a polygraph test he was cleared of the murder and both of these reasons are just pretty weak because, one, the crime scene was looked after so poorly, I'd be amazed if they had any fingerprints at all that were usable.
Starting point is 00:44:30 And two, as we've said time and time again, polygraph tests don't mean jack shit. Another tenuous reason House had been excused from the investigation was that the gun that was registered to House was the wrong kind of firearm. It was a.38 38 caliber but the murder weapon had been a 32 caliber seriously like unlicensed weapons are obviously a fucking thing this isn't enough to get him off that's madness it's such a weird thing so oh you mean the gun that you currently have in your house isn't the same one oh that you can't possibly have then got another gun or borrowed one could you it's bizarre but at the end of the day, it doesn't really matter because, like, he is just making it up.
Starting point is 00:45:09 He's not a real suspect. No, he's not a real suspect. But I think the problem is that, like, law enforcement's way of getting to that was really shit. Like, the way that they discounted him as a possible suspect was a shit way of doing it. But the problem we're really facing here is that the crime scene is a mess. Nothing taken from there can be used seriously. And the question is whether that was allowed to happen by law enforcement on purpose. There's a lot more clutching at straws to come.
Starting point is 00:45:35 In 1979, so 13 years after the Sims family were killed, Thomas Fulgham came to the attention of the police department. Fulgham was 16 at the time of the murders, and he lived just two blocks away from 641 Muriel Court. When Fulgham grew up, he joined the Navy and after being discharged, he moved to Atlanta to become a chiropractor and his mental health took a pretty catastrophic turn for the worse. Fulgham started to tell his friends that, firstly, he may be possessed by the devil
Starting point is 00:46:00 and then he started telling them that he was pretty sure he was the devil himself. He became increasingly more interested in religious practices and symbols. And then, on the 13th of July 1979, he killed his girlfriend, Dale Peerney, seemingly out of the blue. He removed her organs and the police found him standing outside his apartment, covered in blood and holding a jar containing her liver. This is a classic Richard Chase move. He told investigating officers that he had to kill her to protect the earth from Satan for a thousand years.
Starting point is 00:46:35 Thomas Fulgham was declared insane at trial, diagnosed as a paranoid schizophrenic and confined to a mental institution for the rest of his days. But at the time of the Sims murder, he was a pretty normal kid. What piques suspicion in his connection to the Sims case is that he was a confirmed killer living in Tallahassee. And crucially, when the police had gone around the houses questioning the families just after the shootings in 66, Thomas Fulgham was not at home. But I think we can let him off the hook. At the time the murders happened, he was a fucking 16-year-old. How could he have overpowered a man on his own?
Starting point is 00:47:14 Also, the MO is totally different. The Sims family were executed, not eviscerated to cage Satan for a millennium. Besides all of that, Thomas Fulgham was at a party the night of the Sims family murders and several people told police that they had seen him there. And it seems pointless even mentioning this because we've talked about how the crime scene is an absolute shit show. But Fulgham's fingerprints were not found at the scene. I think there's enough of a question mark here to safely say that he probably isn't our guy. It's another weird one. It's like, oh, someone who's done a murder who was in the area, it must be him. But then you have a look at it and there's no way. The MO is so different. He's clearly just a really ill person. He's not, it wasn't him. Next. So
Starting point is 00:47:54 Tallahassee today seems to have a pretty good idea who killed the Sims family. Some people think that Larry Campbell knew all along. It's kind of like a Tallahassee's worst kept secret. Patricia Wyman, a neighbour of the Sims family, remembers hearing a police officer saying after the Sims memorial service, we know who did it, but we can't touch them with a 10 foot pole. Shut up, Patricia. I don't believe her. Patricia can shut up because not only does she say this, she also claims to remember what the wind was like on the 22nd of October 1966. Fuck off, Patricia. No, you don't. She's literally just like this whimsical old lady.
Starting point is 00:48:33 She's like, oh, and the wind was rustling through the trees. No, it wasn't. You don't remember. You were probably like 10. No, you don't. Shut up. I don't like Patricia. I'm sorry, guys. I don't like her. She's a bollocks witness. But this does lead us quite neatly onto who Larry Campbell thought was responsible for the case. He told the Tallahassee Democrat in 1999, You only get one shot in this kind of case. I'm certain I have talked with the perpetrator many times,
Starting point is 00:48:59 and it's just a case of who gives in first. Is that what that's about? No, it isn't. That's not what law enforcement is about. What happens when you give in, Larry Campbell, sheriff of the county? What does that look like? Like literally, Larry Campbell, what does that fucking mean? That is not law enforcement.
Starting point is 00:49:15 It's like, I know who did it. It's just a matter of time. I just bide my time until he gives in. I'm not going to build a case. I'm just going to wait in my lair and stroke my cat. It's just a matter of time. That's his motto to crime fighting. Just wait and see. So this is the other thing that doesn't make any sense. If Larry Campbell was so sure of who the person or persons were and so resentful that he didn't get an arrest out of it, why did he let the crime scene get so
Starting point is 00:49:40 fucked? I think, I know we keep coming back to this, but I think for once in like a few weeks, I'm going to take my conspiracy hat off and say, oh no, but you look so good in it. The shiny silver really does compliment my tones. But I think that they just didn't appreciate the importance of the crime scene. I just didn't think they could appreciate what they could have gleaned from the crime scene. Because by all accounts, they're following up lots of leads, they're doing the right things. They just fucked it at the first stage. But I also wonder, even if they hadn't fucked it, if they hadn't been able to appreciate what they could have learned from the crime scene, even if it had been perfectly pristinely preserved, they still wouldn't have looked for those things because they didn't have the know-how to even look
Starting point is 00:50:21 for those things. So there are people who think that the crime scene was fucked because they're trying to protect someone and they're trying to destroy evidence. And I think you're right. I think even if the evidence was there, it's possible they wouldn't have known how to get it. And who would have called them out on the fact that they hadn't checked this or this or this at the crime scene?
Starting point is 00:50:37 If they really wanted to protect somebody, just don't bring that person in for questioning. Just don't build a case against them. That's it. Despite the fact that Larry Campbell says that he knows exactly who did this, the prime suspects were never accused and never brought to trial due to lack of evidence. And these two are Vernon Fox Jr. and Mary Charles LaJoy. Most people called her Charlie though. These suspects are the source of the suspected cover-up. In some articles, their names aren't even published.
Starting point is 00:51:06 They are just called male and female suspect. I mean, this has got to be a red flag. Why are they being protected when no one else was? Like we've gone through, there were a long list of suspects. None of them were protected. Fucking CA was run out of town. One article we read even said that they didn't want to reveal the names of the suspects for legal and moral reasons. I'm sorry, what legal and moral reasons make these people more entitled to privacy than anyone else's names in this case? Something is going on here. When I read that article, I was like, this is fucking bullshit. You can't list every other suspect and then be like, oh, male and female suspect, who are the ones who probably did it, by the way. It's bullshit. It's bullshit. The only time I've ever seen like people obviously withholding names is when it's like a minor.
Starting point is 00:51:51 They're not minors. Charlie was 19 and Vernon was 20 at the time of the murders. But like, I think it is an interesting thing to pull up these suspects is because there are a lot of things that do point to them. Remember the handprints on Joy Lynn's thighs and that they said that they look like women's hands because they were smaller. Well, you now immediately have a woman, Charlie, involved. And also, a lot of questions about how an intruder overpowered a man the size of Robert Sims. Overpowering a person is a lot easier if there are two of you. But who were these two? Charlie had very humble beginnings. She was adopted by an electrician and his wife.
Starting point is 00:52:25 And according to Charlie, both her mother and her father abused her sexually, emotionally and physically throughout her childhood. Charlie had a bit of a reputation around Tallahassee for being a bit of a weirdo. And by her own admission, she was obsessed with death. She went to the Bevins funeral home, remember Russell and Rocky. She went to their funeral home so many times that Rocky had to ask her to leave and never come back. It was also rumoured that she stole funeral shrouds and slept in them. I mean, that is an indication that everything is not A-OK. It's super weird. Something's not right. Does it make her a killer? Not necessarily.
Starting point is 00:52:57 So let's look at our second suspect, Vernon Fox Jr., who, unsurprisingly, is the son of Vernon Fox Sr. Can we briefly talk about men giving sons their actual name? Because it makes me feel really gross. Come back to CJ. It's a good thing Cecil couldn't. Baptists, can they get married and have kids? Like if you're the pastor? Yeah, Baptists.
Starting point is 00:53:15 Yeah, they can do loads of shagging. Mad Shag is the Baptist. Oh. So he could have got married and have a kid and called it Cecil Junior. And he could have been CJ. Cecil Junior. That's true. Yeah.
Starting point is 00:53:24 Anyway, I don't understand it. I don't understand the passing on the name. It's weird. Vernon I happened to have founded the criminology department at Florida State University and by all accounts was big dick on campus. He was very well known in Tallahassee
Starting point is 00:53:40 and on the face of it, it does seem a little bit odd that a criminology professor would hold enough clout to pervert the course of a murder inquiry to protect his son. But maybe small town politics really are that ridiculous. And Professor Fox was the only game in town when it came to law enforcement training. Larry Campbell had actually been a student of his. So maybe the law enforcement community in Tallahassee was under Vernon Fox Sr.'s thumb.
Starting point is 00:54:08 In fact, the state prosecutor, Bill Hoskins, told investigators in 1966, he said, quote, I'm getting a lot of calls from FSU people saying charge him, meaning Vernon Jr., or lay off. And guess what? They laid off. The Fox family lived on the street just behind the Sims family and they had an adjoining yard. And Vernon Jr. was very interested in Joy Lynn Sims. He had been spotted watching her a few times by neighbours, but nothing had been pursued. And remember, Vernon Jr. was 20 and Joy Lynn Sims was 12. When Vernon and Charlie were questioned just after the murders in 1966, they were each other's alibis. Shock. They both said that they had been to the drive-in to watch some films. How many films they stayed for is a point of much contention in this story.
Starting point is 00:54:59 Vernon changed his story multiple times over the years. First, he says that they only stayed for the first film. Years later, he said they stayed for two first he says that they only stayed for the first film years later he said they stayed for two charlie claims that they stayed for two the ticket terror at the cinema says they stayed for one it does nothing to make their alibi legit honestly like their stories are so annoying because there's like seven different versions of them from different points in time and none of them are the same so you're just like okay fuck it like there's no point in even fucking reading this like it doesn't but then as we always say innocent people give shit stories because they don't fucking remember what they did yeah innocent people don't keep
Starting point is 00:55:35 their story straight because and they can seem inconsistent because they don't know they don't remember because that night was inconsequential to them if they were innocent i'm not saying they were just want to put that out there and according to Vernon, they said that they left the drive-in and went to a secluded lover's lane type situation and had sex before heading back to their houses. I wonder if it was alligator point. Charlie was driving and she let Vernon out of the car a few blocks down from the Sims house. Vernon claimed to see a car he didn't recognize on his way home that made him nervous because one of the headlights didn't look right why is that making you nervous vernon who knows and in interviews years later he claimed that the car stopped the door opened and a man
Starting point is 00:56:15 said no that's not him and then drove the car off he adds in that detail like years later like in the original interview he's just like oh i saw this weird car i felt a bit funny and then i went home and then 20 years later he's like yeah they opened the door and spoke to me what has that car got to be doing or look like for it to be weird enough for you to even take note of anyway burning claims to the day that he got home at seven minutes past 11 which again is a big fucking red flag no one looks at the clock and remembers the exact time they got into the house. The inconsistencies with their story are interesting because in some parts they're being inconsistent like someone who is innocent would be inconsistent. But in some parts they're inconsistent like somebody who's fucking lying would be inconsistent.
Starting point is 00:56:55 And they're sprinkling in little details that only somebody who's lying would think to say. That's what's so confusing about it. And I think same thing with Vernon. Like his initial interview he's like I think I got in about 11. And then as time goes on, he's like, no, it was seven minutes past 11. So he's adding in specifics as he goes along. So it looks like his memory is getting better throughout the ages. But I don't know, man, it's but then that maybe that's someone who's an innocent person who's like, I'm under attack. I need to think of more details to prove my innocence. I don't know that. So he gets in, he looks at the clock, it claims he goes back to his room
Starting point is 00:57:27 and heard nothing for the rest of the night. Charlie, on the other hand, doesn't live very far away. And she claims that when she got back to her house, she heard gunshots, dogs barking and screams coming from the Sims house at 11.15. And literally no one else says that. And we know that can't be true because that's the time Jeannie comes home to find her family bound in the master bedroom.
Starting point is 00:57:47 So despite them both giving similar-ish stories in 1966 and saying that they weren't there, Charlie managed to draw a pretty perfect floor plan of the Sims house, which Larry Campbell was certain there was no way she would have been able to do if she hadn't been in it. Apparently it was quite a unique house. I think in the neighborhood they all sort of looked similar from the outside, but I think inside there was something specific about the Sims house. But at the time she claimed she's never been in the house
Starting point is 00:58:14 and then she produces this perfect floor plan. So if they did do it, surely they would know what time to say they were elsewhere. The alibi they give doesn't even put them in the same place together at the time of the murders. They got home just before Jeannie finds her family. If they were making up an alibi, would they not say they were together the whole time?
Starting point is 00:58:36 But then maybe they wouldn't have known what time Jeannie got home. They wouldn't have told them that information. So maybe they think they've given enough time saying we got home. But even then, you'd just say you were home the whole time surely their stories are so inconsistent but then so is the human memory so it's a really tough it's tough i don't know no 100 i think yeah like you said their stories are so inconsistent and it doesn't necessarily point out for me that they're either guilty or innocent based on the stories they're giving it just raises a lot of other questions yeah police also found letters written by charlie buried in the wooded area behind the sims house
Starting point is 00:59:10 which although it doesn't prove that she was there the night of the murders does prove that she had spent time there despite the fact that she says she hasn't but she also drew the floor plan of the house which proves that she kind of did and she's also lived there her whole life so she's gonna like she's gonna have spent time in woods. I don't think that's a particularly... Like anything situation. No, but it's presented as quite an important thing, which is a bit weird. Despite all of this weirdness,
Starting point is 00:59:33 the evidence around this that they did find, Vernon and Charlie were formally cleared due to a lack of substantial evidence against them. They left town and got married. County Sheriff William Joyce told the press in 1969 that the case would never be solved unless, unless the killer came forward. Good. Pretty lazy policing. Yeah, literally. This also does seem pretty quick to close down a case, doesn't it? Like a case of family murder. I don't
Starting point is 00:59:57 know, that seems weird. Like, oh, that's it. We've tried everything. Now the only hope we have is that the killer just comes forward to reveal themselves. You to wonder like what was going on why were they so willing to give up on this case at that point and then in 1986 shit gets real vernon and charlie who had moved out and got married they'd moved to a different town they get divorced in 1986 and according to vernon charlie was after more alimony payments which he refused to. So she went back to Tallahassee to the sheriff's office to get him into trouble. And get him into trouble she did, because Charlie rang her old friend Patricia Sunday. And according to an interview Patricia gave in 2016, Charlie confided in her all of the details of the gruesome murder,
Starting point is 01:00:39 but quickly changed her story and told Patricia that it was all a dream. Charlie then went to speak to Larry Campbell, who was by now the sheriff, and she was questioned by him for hours. And I've read the transcript of this interaction that was sent to us very kindly by Jeremy Mutz. And not only is she given inconsistent stories, she's very clearly incredibly unstable. Similarly to their stories, their alibi, she both does and doesn't incriminate herself and Vernon Jr. She starts off by telling Larry Campbell all about her traumatic childhood and how her and Vernon had got together when they were very young. Neither of their families had
Starting point is 01:01:15 approved. She wasn't from a well-off family and had a bit of a reputation for being a creeper. And Vernon Jr. wasn't particularly liked by anyone. But this bonded the two of them. And according to Charlie, Vernon could have asked her to do anything and she would have done it. This interaction with her and Larry Campbell really is just so eye-opening. She asks a lot of questions in the interview like, what if I was there? What would happen if? It really does feel like she's trying to sound out what her punishment would be if she fully admitted to the murders of the Sims family, or if she was there. She told Larry Campbell that she has a memory of a man opening a door to her that night, which she believes to be Dr. Robert Sims, and that she knows she was in their house the night of the murder because it came to her in a dream. To which Campbell replied,
Starting point is 01:02:00 you know what you did, I know what you did. And Charlie says, did anybody see me go into that house? If I knew flat ass for sure. That's such a weird phrase. I went in there. She doesn't make any sense. This is the thing. Like this whole interaction is, it's fucking long guys. And she doesn't say anything really.
Starting point is 01:02:18 She's just leaving little breadcrumbs of like, oh, but what if this happened? And I'm sure of this, but I'm not sure of that. And I don't remember this, but this know like it's mental yeah it's like she can't decide how much she's willing to give away she also talks at length about vernon's attraction to little girls and she decided that this must have been her motive she's deciding in the police interview what she's telling her her motive was for being there that night like this is nuts she said that she knew that vernon was attracted to joy lynn so she needed her dead otherwise she feared that she would lose vernon who was her only friend in the world she just sits there and she's like okay but if i was there
Starting point is 01:02:55 what would happen it's like she doesn't even know what she's talking about like i've never seen anything like there's footage of it and i've also read the transcript she has the most infuriating turn of phrase like she just doesn't seem to ever make a point. But when it comes to the Vernon being attracted to young girls, honestly, I do buy it because I watched an interview with Vernon Jr. when he talks about meeting Charlie when they were both in elementary school. And so he's an old man when he's saying this, like retelling the story.
Starting point is 01:03:22 And he describes Charlie as a gorgeous little girl and said she had a body and powerful legs. And he says this with this really creepy smile on his face. So there may be no evidence that he ever molested an underage girl, but based on that clip alone, I think he is perfectly capable of it. He probably like licks his lips.
Starting point is 01:03:39 It's absolutely repulsive. That just really reminds me of this documentary that I watched on YouTube, which I mean, it's fucking rough. Like I genuinely think it's one of the worst things I've ever watched. I started watching it and I thought, oh yeah, this will be interesting. Oh my God, it made me want to throw up. It's a documentary called Truth, Lies and Sex Offenders, a sadistic versus non-sadistic sex offenders. It is fascinating. It's this woman called Salter, Ann Salter, I want to say, and she's basically interviewing these men who have been convicted of, you know, sexual offences. But the way they talk about it and they talk about their victims, the mind of like the sadistic versus non-sadistic sex
Starting point is 01:04:25 offender we will definitely use it at like another case we need to give child killing a bit of a break but when we get back to it will we use it but in the meantime if you want to ruin your day slashed be really like educated about the difference between the two go watch it it's fascinating and charlie doesn't ingratiate herself in this interview very much either because she calls all of the Sims children ugly. Like she's literally like, oh, I could understand if they looked a little bit like their mum, but they were like ugly girls, like ugly little girls. I don't. And she can't understand why he's more attractive to them than he was to her. So it would be fine if they were pretty children. That would be better somehow for her.
Starting point is 01:04:59 It's bizarre. Literally the world's most frustrating person to interview. She can't give a straight answer to anything, but she is trying to shark out the situation she's trying to find out how much trouble she could get Vernon in whilst saving herself so she also at one point claims to remember seeing the body of Joy Lynn lying on the floor like it sort of come to her in this vision and she says that Joy Lynn is lying there with her clothes off but we know that she wasn't i also think a lot of the story that um charlie tells it kind of sounds a bit like you know the satanic panic stuff where they're saying this happened oh a door opened and there was this man there and this happened it's like has she just and you know i'm not saying she's innocent has she just read stuff in papers absorbed all the gossip
Starting point is 01:05:45 that was going around picked up bits and pieces she's now pissed off at Vernon because of the divorce and everything and she's just come back to make up this story like there are people that think that Charlie is the ringleader and I I'm not sure I think that I don't think Charlie's the ringleader I think she is doing exactly what you're doing she's picked up information along the way and she's not a well woman and has turned it into something else. But she says, you know, she can't remember anything else about the night, which is obviously pretty fucking convenient.
Starting point is 01:06:13 But then Larry Campbell tells Charlie that if she was going to admit to being there on the night of the Sims family murders, it was very likely that she would be committed to a mental hospital and that she would go to jail for at least 24 hours. Charlie's very concerned with what type of mental hospital she would be sent to. She even asks if she would be given a reward for turning over Vernon that could be put towards putting her into a nicer psychiatric hospital. And Charlie has been diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia. And on the one hand, it seems like she knows that she needs help. But on the other hand, it seems like she's totally trying to manipulate the situation for everything it's
Starting point is 01:06:48 worth. Like I definitely think it's a case of the fact that she's trying to get Vernon into as much trouble while protecting herself. And for our Patreon listeners, we have a copy of an interview with Charlie's doctor, Dr. H. Anderson, and he gives a full rundown of her mental state. And it is fascinating. So we're going to record that and be dropping that on Patreon on Friday for anybody who's a Patreon of $5 or more. So look out for that. Now, Charlie is clearly very fragile and she has clear sort of delusions of grandeur. But does this mean that she committed the crime? Or does this mean that all these years later, she has convinced herself that she must
Starting point is 01:07:25 have done? If you have delusions of grandeur and everyone thinks that you're responsible for the biggest thing to have ever happened in your town, wouldn't you convince yourself that you must have done it? One thing I will give away from this interview is that Dr. Anderson stated that if anybody molested Joy Lynn, it would have been Charlie rather than Vernon. And he stated that Charlie really, really loved manipulating everyone around her. If Dr. Anderson is right, could it be that Vernon was the follower? And like Hannah said, many people think that Charlie is actually the leader in this case. What I don't understand, if Charlie was the leader, she doesn't matter. She's not the daughter of a criminology professor if it was her why isn't
Starting point is 01:08:05 Vernon just throwing her under the bus why hasn't that happened if she's the leader that's what I don't understand and Vernon jr was discharged from the air force after only four months of service due to mental health issues if you're a man in the 60s and you're getting kicked out of the air force for mental health issues they've got to be pretty significant, I think. But Vernon Jr., who's just out living his life, has his own ideas about who killed the Sims family. And he's made these views quite clear on internet forums. He literally goes on internet chat rooms when people are talking about the case and being like, oh, well, I think this is what happened. I'm male suspect. He literally does that. So Vernon thinks, well, this is what he tells interviewers, he believes that the Sims family were taken out by a professional hitman due to
Starting point is 01:08:50 Dr. Sims involvement in computers. He's a computer professor before computers even really exist, really. So I think it's a classic thing of like, oh, he does something I don't understand. It must be bad. So then Vernon Jr. talks about the stab wounds on joy lynn and he thinks that they're staged so he thinks it's like an execution hit and then the stab wounds are staged even though joy lynn isn't shot like she is only stabbed so they can't be staged because she's dead but this is a quote from vernon jr he says i know enough about child molesters to know there would be 50 to 100 stab wounds in the abdomen. Doesn't look like a sex crime to me. It looks staged.
Starting point is 01:09:33 Were the stab wounds post-mortem? Stab wounds in the chest is not sexual. Yes, it is. Literally stabbing someone to death is pretty much the most sexual way that you could kill somebody stab wounds are so sexual coming back to the whole idea of like who is the ring leader they both are clearly not well people the time that this happens but the reason that i think it's not charlie and vernon being the ring leader is because this is absolutely a fucking sexually motivated crime joy lynn was the intended victim She was the person they were going after. Everyone
Starting point is 01:10:05 else was just cleared out of the way. The stab wounds, absolutely, even if she wasn't sexually interfered with, scream at me, the overkill and the stabbing and her age, everything. This was sexually motivated. And we've seen cases where women will go along with men who have that sexual desire after children to, you know, go along with it, to be a part of that fantasy, to appease it. And I think that's what Charlie did. They're a part of that fantasy to appease it and I think that's what Charlie did they're both as guilty as each other but this I think this was motivated by Vernon's sexual desire for Joy Lynn I completely agree and like his theory his hitman theory is a fucking bullshit theory and he fucking knows it like he hasn't even thought it through properly
Starting point is 01:10:38 like in an interview he's like oh but you know they weren't shot in the back of the head like execution style so maybe the gunman had shaky hands. Like, come on. Like, surely he can't be believing that. He can't. After her long interview with Charlie Campbell, Charlie is allowed to go free, and the police department never hear from her again. I mean, you would think that with an investigation spanning 50 years,
Starting point is 01:11:00 that we would be a bit closer to a conviction. And you would be correct. This is where our friend Jeremy Mutz comes in. Mr. Mutz was a prosecuting attorney in Tallahassee from 2003 to 2016. And being a Tallahassee native had a keen interest in this case. He ended up taking the case on and eventually after months of compiling, Jeremy Mutz felt that he had enough evidence to prosecute Vernon Jr. So he took this evidence to Willie Meggs who was the elected prosecutor in Tallahassee at the time and was granted a task force. This task force collected DNA evidence which of course was woefully lacking in the original investigation in the 60s and they were working on affidavits for search warrants, which we have seen.
Starting point is 01:11:47 But on the 20th of April 2016, seemingly out of nowhere, Willie Meggs and Mike Wood killed the task force. Jack Campbell, Larry's son, so Larry Campbell's son, was running for election in 2016 to replace Willie Meggs, And he was dead set against anyone investigating into the Sims case. He saw it as a personal affront to his father's memory. According to Jack Campbell, if my daddy couldn't solve it, no one could solve it. Your daddy literally said, well, we're fucking stalemate. He's got to give up or I will.
Starting point is 01:12:21 Like that's not, sorry, he's not. No. I was going to say Scooby-Doo then. I don't know why he's not Scooby-Doo. Like that's not sorry. He's not. No, I was gonna say Scooby Doo then. He's not Scooby Doo. That hard headed detective. Absolutely. I mean, you know, he did solve a lot of crimes. But no, I think this is about Jack Campbell. I don't think he was trying to hide his father's corruption or conspiracies or cover up. I think he was trying to cover up the fact that his dad was just not very efficient and didn't solve this case. He's running for election. These guys dig into this case. It's going to pull out all of the
Starting point is 01:12:50 failings, all of the like mistakes that the police made. And I think he just doesn't want that to come out. Yeah. But like grown men need to stop using the word daddy or I literally will stick pencils up my nose and slam my head on a table like a very southern thing though isn't it it's just gross it's honestly it's so gross by july 25th 2016 jeremy mutts had been fired by willie megs and escorted from the officers so not only had they killed the task force they get rid of the guy who was leading the investigation from the the lawyer side of things. And what seems odd here is that all of Jeremy Mutt's evidence points towards Vernon Fox Jr. and Charlie, which is who Larry Campbell thought committed the murder the whole time.
Starting point is 01:13:35 So why would the investigation be stopped? It doesn't make sense. They're proving his point. Like, he spent his whole law enforcement career being like, I think it was them, but I can't touch them. And they can now. Like, Vernon Fox Sr. is dead. Like there's nothing stopping them. But they don't do it. Maybe it is like we're saying they don't, they know more about this than they're letting on. And maybe it's not a big conspiracy, but it's either covering up, like I said, for the fact that Larry Campbell was,
Starting point is 01:14:00 you know, just a bit inept and didn't conduct a very thorough investigation or maybe he did cover it up because Vernon Fox senior had something on him and maybe if they dig back into this case that thing might be revealed maybe it's it's funny I think my let's okay let's final call it I think it was Vernon and Charlie I am more inclined to believe that Vernon was the ringleader and Charlie was the follower I think that is I agree because this is in my mind a totally sexually motivated crime Vernon is the one with the sexual attraction to children Charlie goes along with it like we see so many things like god I was reading again about like the Ian Watkins case like the things that he got women to do with children for him that's what this this is, I think. I mean, I know there's no proof that they sexually interfered with Joy Lynn, but this is sexually motivated. Vernon was the one with that predilection.
Starting point is 01:14:53 They were both very unwell. And I think that's what happened here. And it was just a flawed, flawed, flawed, flawed police investigation that has led to them getting away with it. And like, I know this is conjecture, but I don't care. Vernon Jr. does carry himself with the slimy confidence of a man who's got away with murder. He really does. There's a really good documentary on this case called 641 Muriel Court. Watch it because there's interviews with him now. That film was only made two years ago, talking about it like it's the most normal thing in
Starting point is 01:15:21 the world. So go and watch that and then let us know what you think. You can let us know what you think by following us on social media. On Facebook, we've got a fantastic Facebook group now that's like almost got 3000 people in it. It's amazing. So you can find that or you can follow us on Twitter and Instagram at Red Handed The Pod. And if you would like to go just that little step further, and perhaps, you know, pledge as part of the Patreon. And get your hands on that psychiatric exactly which we're going to be dropping on friday as we said you can do that and here are some people
Starting point is 01:15:50 that have so we have very generous kelly anderson jean abby hate leah barnes lily lefay kelly and kelly anderson again sarah miller thomas martin jennifer and blair thomas thank you so much guys for your support and we will see you next week. Absolutely. See you then. Bye. Bye. I'm Jake Warren. And in our first season of Finding, I set out on a very personal quest to find the woman who saved my mum's life. You can listen to Finding Natasha right now, exclusively on Wondery Plus. In season two I found myself caught up in a new journey to help someone I've never even met. But a couple of
Starting point is 01:16:31 years ago I came across a social media post by a person named Loti. It read in part, Three years ago today that I attempted to jump off this bridge but this wasn't my time to go. A gentleman named Andy saved my life. I still haven't found him. This is a story that I came across purely by chance but it instantly moved me and it's taken me to a place where I've had to consider some deeper issues around mental health. This is season two of Finding and this time if all goes to plan we'll be finding Andy. You can listen to Finding Andy and Finding Natasha exclusively and ad-free on Wondery Plus. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify. Hi, I'm Lindsey Graham, the host of Wondery Show American Scandal.
Starting point is 01:17:17 We bring to light some of the biggest controversies in U.S. history. Presidential lies, environmental disasters, corporate fraud. In our latest series, NASA embarks on an ambitious program to reinvent space exploration with the launch of its first reusable vehicle, the Space Shuttle. And in 1985, they announce they're sending teacher Krista McAuliffe into space aboard the Space Shuttle Challenger, along with six other astronauts. But less than two minutes after liftoff, the Challenger explodes. And in the tragedy's aftermath, investigators uncover a series of preventable failures by NASA and its contractors that led to the disaster. Follow American Scandal on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. Experience all episodes ad-free and be the first to binge the newest season only on Wondery+. You can join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify.
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