RedHanded - Episode 70 - Dylann Roof & The Charleston Church Shootings

Episode Date: November 15, 2018

On June 17 2015, 13 people sat down for bible study at the historically black Mother Emanuel Church in Charleston. But one of them was a stranger - and by the end of the night, in a brutal attack, 9 of the congregants would be viciously murdered. When the killer, Dylann Roof, was captured it became clear that he was driven by a racist ideology of white supremacy and the dream of sparking a violent race war.  Join the girls this week as they navigate the terrifying world of online hate groups and a senseless mass murder that shook the US.   See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to Red Handed early and ad-free. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. They say Hollywood is where dreams are made. A seductive city where many flock to get rich, be adored, and capture America's heart. But when the spotlight turns off, fame, fortune, and lives can disappear in an instant. Follow Hollywood and Crime, The Cotton Club Murder on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. What does this do?

I guess my question is, there's nine people that are dead. You said the goal was to kill black people, specific, just black, because they are black, because you're sick and tired of what's black on white crime and no one's paying attention to that, the lack of movement with the skinhead movement and the KKK. So you said you wanted to kill black people. Now that you did, what are your thoughts? I guess what message do you want to be told to the public? What do you want people to remember Dylann Roof for? I'm Saruti. I'm Hannah. And welcome to Red Handed. On the evening of June 17th, 2015,

12 members of the Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal Church, or Mother Emanuel as the church is also known, gathered as they did most Wednesday evenings for Bible study. But that night, they'd be joined by a 13th stranger. Because randomly, a young white guy walked in and asked for the pastor. The pastor, Clementa Pinckney, welcomed the man in and gave him a seat and a Bible. The man sat down next to the pastor and the group spent an hour discussing the Bible. The entire time, the stranger sat in silence. As the Bible study came to an end, at about 9pm, the group were about to go into their final prayer. At this point, the young blonde man,

who was still sat silently at the table, stood up and took out a.45 caliber handgun. He hesitated for a moment, but then, I guess remembering why he was there, he started shooting. As the parishioners were sprayed with bullets, one of the women asked him why he was doing this, and he replied, you rape our women, you kill us, and you're taking over. You have to die. During his rampage, the man fired his gun 77 times, reloading seven times. 70-year-old woman Polly Shepard was hiding under the table. When the man found her, she prepared herself for death, but the man stopped shooting and told her, I'm not going to shoot you. I'm going to leave you to tell the story of what I've done.

The victims who are now referred to as the Charleston Nine were 41-year-old Clementa Pickney, 54-year-old Cynthia Marries Hurd, 87-year-old Susie Jackson, 70-year-old Ethel Lee Lance, 49-year-old Dayen Middleton-Doctor, 26-year-old Twanza Sanders, 74-year-old Daniel Simmons,

45-year-old Sharonda Coleman-Singleton and 59 year old Myra Thompson. Polly Shepard, Felicia Sanders, who was the mum of Twanza, who was the youngest victim, and her 11 year old granddaughter survived, though watching her son being shot in front of her and then laying in his blood until she was rescued makes it quite hard for us to say that she or any of the other survivors were lucky. After the shooting, the man fled. Unlike these killers normally do, he hadn't killed himself. After he ran off, Polly Shepard, one of the survivors, called 911 and the news blew up. The shooter was on the loose. None of the survivors had recognised him and the authorities had no idea who he was. The shooter was on the loose. None of the survivors had recognized him and the

authorities had no idea who he was. The city fell into a state of panic. What if he was planning another attack? Given the extent of the crime and the victimology, it was very quickly named a hate crime and the FBI were immediately called in. And this is just such a sick attack. This man attacked these people, mainly they're old women. And in like one of their most vulnerable moments, they're literally in church praying. And what's even worse is they had welcomed this man into their church and then he had shot them all after sitting with them for an hour. It's just so, it's just so bizarre. What was he thinking about during that hour? I get why he chose a church,

because it's kind of like wanting to blow up Disneyland or something. It's a significant building. Oh, of course. And I think his choice specifically of the Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal Church was absolutely no accident. Mother Emanuel traces its roots to 1816, and throughout its early history, it was the center of anti-slavery activity. In 1822, city officials had actually discovered that the congregants were planning like a slave revolt,

so they burnt the church to the ground. And the current building was actually only erected in 1891. And in more recent history, the church then again became a key part of the civil rights movement, with Dr. King visiting it in the 60s. So yeah, it's like an incredibly important part of history for the community in Charleston. And it's one of the US's oldest black churches. There's no doubt that this church was a powerful symbol. And that's why it was chosen as a target. No doubt. This is what terrorists do though, isn't it? They choose a target or a place or a symbol that's going to send a message to the community. And the message was delivered loud and clear because there was huge panic. No one had any idea, like you said, who he was or where he was or if he was acting alone or if he was heading to another church or another

target. The city went completely into overdrive, as you would expect when there's an active shooter on the loose. So the FBI and the police were checking CCTV across the entire city. CCTV at the church finally gave the FBI something. They could see a young man with a bowl cut leaving the church. And it's a look. It's such a distinctive... I think that's the only word I can think of. It's distinctive. At 6.30 that morning, nine hours after the attack,

that bowl-cut face was everywhere. Within hours, a woman called the hotline claiming to know the man. He was her brother. His name was Dylan Ruth, and he was just 21 years old. I don't know if I'd be able to call the police on my brother. It's really difficult, but, I mean, his face is everywhere. I think at this point when this has happened, he shot nine people and he's on the loose. The FBI are involved. I don't think at that point, they could have turned on a TV without seeing his face everywhere. Maybe she thought that

before he kills himself or before he kills anybody else, they're going to catch him. Let me just help them catch him faster. He's not going to get away with this. Authorities now knew who he is, but they still had to find him before he killed again or killed himself. The issue was that the FBI had nothing on Dylan Roof. He wasn't known to them at all. He didn't have a record. He didn't have any prior

association with any hate groups. He was a brand new name and he seemingly came out of nowhere. So they dug into his background. His parents had separated before he was even born. And by all accounts, he was a loner with very few friends. Most people the FBI spoke to about Ruth agreed that he was an angry, confused and troubled man. But it was the whole race hate thing that shocked people the most because he grew up in a multicultural environment. He had black friends. And yes, of course, you can be a racist and have friends that are people of color. But his friends said that his black friends said that he had never said anything racist to them or treated them any differently. And his white friends said they definitely did not support his views around white supremacy or white nationalism

i think people weren't that shocked that he had gone and killed a load of people but they were really shocked by his motivation for why he had done it but does he have friends or does he not have friends because it feels like it's a he's a loner but then he's a loner with few friends i think he was very very isolated his family were like he spent all ofer, but then... He's a loner with few friends. I think he was very, very isolated. His family were like, he spent all of his time in his room. He never really came out. But he seems to have had a few friends from high school that he still went drinking with and taking drugs with and stuff like that.

And a few of them said that Ruth had said a few weird things to them, especially like after drinking sessions, but that they had mainly just ignored it and that no one it seems had taken him seriously and absolutely no one had gone to the police about anything odd that Ruth had said but would you it's weird because there's one particular kid that they interview who was a friend of Ruth's who they like hang out and get drunk together said that Ruth Ruth told him exactly a week before the shooting, they have seven days and then they're going to die. I don't know.

What do you do with that information? Well, I think it's like when we did the Paola Maiombe case and one of the girls was going to university in the United States and she would say all of this stuff about this cult she's in after some drinks and everyone just thought she was just being a bit like goth and weird. It's easy to sort of... Look the other way way look the other way and put it down to like oh they were just a bit drunk they didn't know what they were saying definitely and the kids who knew him because he dropped out of high school but the kids who had known him at high school were all

tweeting things after this all came out being like oh yeah he was emo as fuck i always knew he was gonna end up shooting somebody like oh god it's all just quite like he was just a weird kid who said weird things, no one thought he'd actually do it, and then he went and did it. While the FBI are trying to get to grips with who Dylan Roof was, his face and descriptions of his car were circulating,

but there were no leads until 13 hours after the attack. Roof had driven to the border of North and South Carolina when a woman had spotted his car. She called her friend, who was a police officer, and said, quote, I see him. I'm going to tail him until you get here. This woman was a florist on her way to work. I love this woman. That's crazy. I cannot believe she did this. She's just like a florist on her way to work. And she's like, I see him. I'm going to follow him. Oh, this is down to me. I am super cop. I'm going to tail him. I'm not just going to say this is his registration plate.

I am going to physically follow him until you get here. Absolutely. She's not like, oh, he's just heading in that direction. I'll leave it with you now. I've told you. She's like, no, I'm going to follow him until you find him. I love her. Thanks to this vigilant citizen, the police get Ruth.

A concern during the approach was that he would still shoot himself or go out by suicide by cop. This is definitely what usually happens. But bizarrely, Roof surrendered really easily. I find that really weird with him that he didn't, because later on in the interviews and like when he's talking, he says that he didn't expect to walk out of that church alive. And yeah, when they arrest him, he just walks out of the car and puts his hands up this isn't how these guys usually go they usually kill themselves he wants to talk about it though that's my i think my sort of feeling about it is that he he wants to sit down and talk through the reasons why he's done it because it's a planned

thing do i mean it's not a frenzied attack like he's done it for specific reasons and he wants to tell people what they are he doesn't just want to go out you know yeah when they bring him in and he's being interviewed like just listen can you tell us about what happened last night well yeah i mean i just i went to that church in Charleston and uh... I... I did it. Did what? I mean... I know it's tough sometimes to say.

It's not that I don't want to say it because I don't want to make myself seem guilty. I just don't really like saying it. But I know sometimes we have to face those things, the realities. We don't want to put any words in your mouth. That's why Agent Stansbury was asking what it exactly is that you did do. Well, did I kill him? Well, I guess. I mean, I don't really know. Well, I mean, I don't know how many people or anything like that. Did you shoot him?

Yes. What kind of gun did you use? A Glock 45. I just finally decided I had to do it. And that's pretty much it. Well, that goes to the next question. Why did you have to do it? Oh, I had to do it.

How come? That's what I don't know. Oh. Well, I had to do it. How come? That's what I don't know. Well, I had to do it because somebody had to do something. Because, you know, black people are killing white people every day on the streets. And they rape white women, 100 white women a day. That's an FBI statistic from 2005. That's 10 years ago. There might even be more now, who knows.

It sounds unrealistic, but you break it down, that's two estates. It's really not unrealistic at all. It could probably be more. The fact of the matter is, what I did is so minuscule to what they're doing to white people every day all the time. And as you can hear, like Dylan Roof is so 100% open about telling everybody about what his motivations were. And you can tell that he was 100% racially motivated. During the interviews, he defines himself as a white supremacist, as a white nationalist. He blames black people and people of color for the destruction of the white race. He's super forthcoming in talking about his motives

and his ideology. And aside from this, which is sometimes all we get, we have another very interesting piece of evidence. This surfaced on the internet a few days after the massacre. And yes, you guessed it, Ruth had written a manifesto. Again, this is just really similar to like Elliot Rodger. Yeah, exactly. That's that. I keep thinking as we go through it, there's like Elliot Rodger checkpoints as we go through it. 100%. And I really think with Ruth, if he hadn't had just fallen into race hate, he would have fallen into women hate or something else. He would have done this, I think, regardless of what ideology had motivated him to do it. But his manifesto, let's come back to that. It was called The Last Rhodesian.

And what is he on about? Well, Rhodesia was the former name of a region in Africa that is now Zimbabwe and Zambia. It was named after Cecil Rhodes, a British imperialist who established a white colony there as part of his mining company. And then, obviously, he went on to establish political rule. The white minority that ruled in Rhodesia was the only white government in the region though. And these days, Rhodesia has become a term used by white supremacists who feel themselves to now be an oppressed minority. So the manifesto is, as ever, when we get one of these, a remarkable bit of evidence in this case. It really helps us understand Ruth's motivations and ideology, and also where this mentality came from. It starts, rather helpfully, with Ruth's route

to radicalisation. And this is a quote. He says, I was not raised in a racist home or environment. The event that truly awakened me was the Trayvon Martin case. I kept hearing and seeing his name, and eventually I decided to look him up. I read the Wikipedia article. Always a great source for information. Yeah, I read the Wikipedia article, which don't, uh, try not to, if you can possibly help it. Looking at you, podcast world. And right away, I was unable to understand what the big deal was. It was obvious that Zimmerman

was in the right. And for those of you who may not be aware of the Trayvon Martin case, we'll do a quick rundown, but it's, I would be amazed if you hadn't heard of it. On the 13th of July, 2012, 17 year old Trayvon Martin was shot dead in Florida by a man named George Zimmerman. This case sparked national controversy in the US when Zimmerman was acquitted of second-degree murder by claiming self-defence. Because Florida has its stand-your-ground law,

which basically means that a person has the right to defend themselves or others against threats or perceived threats even to the point of applying lethal force regardless of whether safely retreating from the situation might have been possible the major issue with the stand your ground law i think is the perceived threat bit like if you are perceiving threat like everyone perceives threats differently and because Zimmerman perceived Trayvon Martin to be a threat because he was black that's why he got away with it that's the problem the thing is we don't have all of the facts about what really happened that night and we don't have those facts

even if we did a deep dive into that case we don't have all of the facts about what happened that night because one of the people that were there is dead. But what we do know, obviously I'm not defending George Zimmerman, but we don't know exactly what his true motivations were. I'm inclined to think they were racially motivated. But what we absolutely do know about that case is that an armed man on Neighbourhood Watch shot and killed an unarmed black teenager. Now, we aren't going to delve further into this case today, but we can absolutely say that this killing was definitely the catalyst that set our killer today, Dylan Roof, on his path. A path that ended with the murder of nine innocent people. And whilst we aren't going to delve too much further into the Trayvon Martin case,

we're just going to stay with it for a moment. In 2012, when Zimmerman was on trial for killing Trayvon Martin, like other white supremacist groups, the Council of Conservative Citizens, or the CCC, which is so original, doesn't sound like it has anything to do with the KKK at all. Like rebrand, CCC. It's a lazy rebrand. Oh, let's just replace the kicking cuss with curly cuss. That's all we're going to do. They have hired. It's like, oh, let's just replace the kicking cuss with curly cuss. That's all we're going to do. They have hired the worst, worst, worst, worst management consultant to come in and give them that new logo and name. Probably for thousands of dollars.

Management consultancy, man. It's a scam. It's not a scam. I don't know what I'm talking about. It's very hot under here. This group, the curly cuss cuz became incredibly vocal online defenders of zimmerman and they are despite their ridiculous name and lazy rebrand no joke they are currently america's biggest white nationalist organization and while we are like making jokes that it was a

rebrand they are a separate thing they are just super racist they're like the acceptable oh no they're not even the acceptable face of racism they're just like if the kkk are a bunch of people running around in like white robes burning crosses the ccc are like a bunch of angry white men sat behind their laptops typing articles about race hate and leading to killings like what Dylan Roof did. And if the name is still throwing you off, because they may sound like they're just a bit conservative, don't be fooled. They are the modern reincarnation of the White Citizens Councils, which was set up in the 1950s to resist desegregation. And they are absolutely the group that first attracted Dylann Roof into the world of organised racism. It wasn't just Dylann Roof who they enticed. Their support of Zimmerman

in that incredibly high profile case led to a huge surge in interest from new visitors to their website. And I visited this website. I have to say, it's polished. Things are actually spelt correctly. I think it's for like the discerning racist, as opposed to some of the other forums I ventured into, which we'll discuss later in this episode. But again, don't be fooled by that. I've read so many articles about the CCC on the Southern Poverty Law Centre's website, and these guys are for real. They are not to be ignored because of the polish. And not to be made light of either. No, this is the thing that I absolutely don't want to do. As tempting as it is to just laugh

at these idiots, we can't laugh at them. We have to take them incredibly, incredibly, incredibly seriously. Because among the polish and the properly spelt titles, you have the usual fucking hate. It's all headlines like ban Muslims, not guns, why it's okay to be white, why it's all about erasing white people. And can Germany ever be great again? I think Germany's doing okay. I think Germany's all right, you know, because I think Germany, you know, modern day multicultural Germany is doing pretty all right

because the last time I checked, they were the economic powerhouse of the Eurozone and I think they're all right because the last time I checked they were the economic powerhouse of the eurozone and I think they're all right they're doing pretty fine Angela Merkel is doing all right she's doing fine so um I don't think you guys need to worry about whether Germany can ever be great again I think it's doing better than it was when people were burning money because of super hyperinflation and they couldn't afford to eat. And then Hitler came along. So yay. Yes, looking through this site, it just seems like since they can't fight to actually bring back actual segregation like I know they would love to, the CCC is nowadays more focused on things like fighting interracial marriage, halting immigration and screaming about

white genocide. Because that's the thing that that part of the world is very obsessed with. White genocide. Yes. The belief that people of color are killing white people or breeding them out by intermarriage. Yikes. Oh, indeed. And reading such alluring articles surprisingly didn't convert me from just being curious to being filled with race hate, but it did convert others, one of whom was Dylan Roof. And in his manifesto, Roof goes on to say that blacks are, quote, the biggest problem for Americans, and that he blamed the Jews for, quote, the agitation of the

black race, almost as if it were lifted from the CCC website itself. Ruth also writes about segregation, quote, segregation was not a bad thing. It was a defensive measure. Segregation did not exist to hold back Negroes. It existed to protect us from them. I wrote an essay at university and the question was, quotation marks, it's not that easy being green. Kermit the Frog, discuss being green is easy, being white is the problem. What? Yeah. My university was hilarious.

So it was all about the problem of whiteness as like an academic thing. And it's about how whiteness is the marker for, well, I'm sort of getting, well, as the resident white person, whiteness is the marker for how the world is perceived. So you're much more likely to say, oh, that black guy over there than that white guy over there in general. So I think what people like Dylan Roof get upset about is not being the marker for, not being the marker for normal, if you see what I mean. Yes. I think it's like the whole issue that stems with things like white supremacy

or white nationalism, just like with men's rights activists and all that. It's just people who were in the status quo at the highest position of power. And then they're now in a world where more than ever, that's being rocked and it's being questioned. And they don't want that to happen. It's a feeling's being rocked and it's being questioned and they don't

want that to happen it's a feeling of being threatened and it's exactly what is it oh just separate us you go over there we be here and then I still get to be the king of this world a lot of it is about disenfranchisement like I think with people like Dylan Roof they feel disenfranchised and unhappy and angry I'm I'm a white man I should be top of the pyramid and I'm not that has to be someone's fault. Absolutely. I think that's it. It's that feeling of exactly what you're saying. I should be king of this world. And everybody keeps telling me that I am. They keep telling me that I'm a white man and I should, you know, I'm so privileged and I don't feel like I am.

I feel disenfranchised. I feel angry. I feel disempowered. I don't feel like I'm happy and filled with a sense of purpose. But instead of that being my fault, me taking any responsibility for that, I'm going to look to blame other people. And I think we're oversimplifying and we're generalizing. A lot of this does stem from that kind of feeling. Yeah. And that's the other important thing is that with any kind of radicalization or any sort of extreme views, they don't come from nowhere. No. People have extreme views because they're angry about something, you know. Of course. And it's this feeling of if the status quo was that you were in a position of power and at least perceived to be in a position of power at the top of that pyramid.

There are people who are obviously like, yeah, cool. I want equality for everybody now. I'm fine with that because it doesn't threaten me personally. But the people who feel threatened by that, that somehow equality means you're going to be pushed down. It doesn't mean to them other people are being brought up. It means they're being pushed down. It's like they think it's a zero sum game. Somebody else wins and gets more rights and more equality and more of this, that somehow it's being taken from them in order to give it to those people, when that's not the case. This isn't a zero-sum game. Equality doesn't work like that. I'm Jake Warren, and in our first season of Finding, I set out on a very personal quest to find the woman who saved my mum's life. You can listen to

Finding Natasha right now exclusively on Wondery Plus+. In season two, I found myself caught up in a new journey to help someone I've never even met. But a couple of years ago, I came across a social media post by a person named Loti. It read in part, Three years ago today that I attempted to jump off this bridge, but this wasn't my time to go. A gentleman named Andy saved my life.

I still haven't found him. This is a story that I came across purely by chance but it instantly moved me and it's taken me to a place where I've had to consider some deeper issues around mental health. This is season two of Finding and this time, if all goes to plan,

we'll be finding Andy. You can listen to Finding Andy and Finding Natasha exclusively and ad-free on Wondery Plus. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify. They say Hollywood is where dreams are made, a seductive city where many flock to get rich, be adored, and capture America's heart. But when the spotlight turns off, fame, fortune, and lives can disappear in an instant. When TV producer Roy Radin was found dead in a canyon near L.A. in 1983, there were many questions surrounding his death. The last person seen with him was Lainey Jacobs, a seductive

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While someone has to have the bravery to take it to the real world. And I guess that has to be me. It's really interesting with him and throughout the manifesto, whenever he speaks, he always prefixes everything he says with, I had no choice. I had to do this. He's removing the responsibility completely from him like he was forced into doing this yeah he's kind of like a not quite I was just following orders yeah I know what you mean I know what you mean though kind of like this was literally the only thing I could

have possibly done this was my only possible outcome yeah like he's looking at people like hello I had to do this what are you you talking about? This was the natural, inevitable thing that was going to happen. Let's get back to the CCC and how Ruth found them. Essentially, as we said, it was because of the Trayvon Martin case. Ruth had sat down and googled black-on-white crime, and given that since the Zimmerman trial, the CCC had been squarely focused on what it called this epidemic of black-on-white crime. All of their rhetoric poured over

Roof like a great disgusting wave of shit. And it was through the CCC and more specifically through a particular set of studies they had done into crime in the US that lit the spark for Roof. Basically what organised hate groups like the CCC do is mislead people and whip them up into a frenzy using distorted, manipulated, or totally fake statistics. This really made me think of anti-vaxxers being like the rise in autism next to the rise in vaccinated babies. There's a word for it where you use statistics that are completely unrelated to prove a point. They're just showing some sort of correlation and trying to say it's causation. The reason that we have more children diagnosed with autism is because we're better at diagnosing autism, probably not because they're vaccinated more.

And we're like, oh, this is causing autism. So yeah, you cannot say correlation equals causation just because those two things are trending the same way does not mean in any way that they are fucking related. But that's exactly what the CCC are doing. Oh, no, that's not what they're doing. In this case, like with the vaxxers, you can prove statistics, you can use statistics to prove anything. What the CCC are doing is outright lying. These aren't even real statistics. They are fabricated statistics. And also, they are fabricated statistics, but they're also ignoring huge swathes of the actual story and there are many many of these people doing this and it really does form the crux of the ccc's yellings but we'll

focus on two men in particular one man named pat buchanan a political pundit and the other a man named jared taylor the founder of american renaissance incredibly shit website if you want to have a good laugh at that. American Renaissance? What does that mean? It's just more race bullshit. Just racism, okay. Just more racism. American Renaissance.

Now, these men have published articles and papers and blogs all focused on the idea that, quote, the real repository of racism in America manifest in violent interracial assault, rape and murder is to be found not in the white community but in the African American community. These men and the CCC at large are very much focused on crime perpetrated by African Americans against white people. A CCC blog post said that there were 361 black on white murders in 2014. So this post was made around the time of the Trayvon Martin killing and therefore around the time that Roof was on their website for the first time.

But according to numbers released by the FBI in 2013, they found that of the 3,005 white individuals murdered that year, 2,509 of the offenders were white and 409 had been black. So what fucking point are they trying to prove? They are isolating just parts that they want to talk about and saying, look at this epidemic of black on white crime. When in fact, more numbers released at the end of last year in a report by the DOJ's Bureau of Justice Statistics found that a majority of most violent crimes are committed by people who are the same race as their victims, because it found that the rate of white on white violent

crime is about four times the rate of black on white crime. And this just matches pretty much every study, every result out there. And it doesn't mean that one race is more violent than the other. I'm not saying because more white people are killing white people, white people are more violent. No, all this says is the race is a completely useless predictor of crime or criminal behavior compared to something like poverty or income. Because when you look at black people being murdered, Hispanic people being murdered, white people being murdered, they are being murdered of people by the same race as them. That's it. That's all these statistics prove. But these skewed facts marry perfectly with Roof's actions.

Him yelling, you rape our women and you're killing us all, as he shot and killed nine people. To be clear, Taylor, the man who cooked up these reports, says that the CCC members had never heard of Ruth and that he never attended a meeting. So they're basically saying he's nothing to do with them. It's not their actions that have caused this, but it clearly obviously is. It's like when people are like, oh, but he's not a real Buddhist.

Do you know what I mean? Oh, yeah. The group condemned the shooting, but they also said that they stand behind Roof's ideology. After he's done what he's done, they still fucking say they stand behind his ideology. I mean, I guess you have to stick to it. If you're going to be such an overt racist and such a horrendous person, I guess you just have to stick to it, right? Yeah, you have to.

You can't be the leader of what is almost the acceptable face of racism and then not be racist anymore here's a quote from taylor for a young man like dylan roof to be constantly reminded of the sins of his ancestors it's going to make people hopping mad he's such a prick what does he mean the sins of his ancestors he's being told like because it's like carolina they had all the like confederacy statue argument and all of this. It's about the South and the feeling of, like, oh, he's a white man in the South and he's constantly being told you're a devil and your ancestors killed all these people. And who fucking said that to him? No one said that to him.

He never even said that anyone said that to him. Who was it that said Me Too makes me more concerned for my sons than it does for my daughters? Oh God, I don't know. Any list? This is more from Taylor. Many people are angry about the genuine facts of interracial crime in the United States, but that anger should not by any means be channeled into violence. And can we just talk about many people are angry about the genuine facts of interracial crime in the US. Interracial crime in the US is not the fucking problem. Because all the statistics prove that most people who are attacked or killed are attacked or killed by people of the same race.

The issue is just a violent crime. And while the CCC can say he never came to a meeting and that they didn't know him, it doesn't really, it just doesn't matter. Roof used their website and their resources to self-radicalise. And we know this for a fact because of his manifesto. And we've got another quote from The Last Rhodesian. I have never been the same since that day. Which is the day he found the CCC website. There were pages upon pages of these brutal black-on-white murders. I was in disbelief.

At this moment, I realised that something was very wrong. Roof's involvement in the online world of race hate wasn't limited to the CCC website. He also seems to have been an active member of the online fuckfest DailyStormer.com. He had been on there posting under the username ArianBlood1488, so we had to check it out. And has a very jazzy header, Super 80s Neon, which is not totally what we were expecting. And they are angry. It's not quite as polished as the CCC website. It's mainly a massive list of headlines about black people killing white people and how much they hate refugees, women and anyone of colour.

But there's an even worse one called Stormfront. But finding this one was a little bit more confusing because there is also a UK website that sells Apple accessories. So when I Google Stormfront, that's the first thing that comes up. Oh, you'd be so gutted, wouldn't you? You'd be like, oh, I've just done this startup. Like, great, this is going really well. I'm going to sell some fucking iPhone cases. It's so bizarre. And I don't understand why they don't just change their name because when I

Google Stormfront, it's the first thing that comes up. But at the side, you know, there's that little box that comes up from like Wikipedia. In that box, though, it's the description of the race hate website. Oh, my God. That's a PR nightmare. It's so bizarre. So when I Google Stormfront, the Apple phone case shop is the one that comes up first for me. But about eight links down, I found it. And it's very, very reminiscent of incels.me, the forum we discussed back in the incel episode.

It has the same forum rules and all the weird affirmations about who they are and what they stand for and this is quote at the like top of their page we are a community of racial realists and idealists we are white nationalists who support true diversity and a homeland for all people including ours we are the voice of the new embattled white minority. And their slogan is strong. It is the truth is hate to those who hate the truth. What's true diversity when it's at home? Like what does their vision of diversity look like them just living separately to everybody else? I think what they mean by true diversity is because when we talk about diversity, we talk about people of colour and we talk about women and like lgbt community and everything they're saying how is that true

diversity when no no one talks about us being involved in that i think that's what they mean okay that's as much as i could understand of that their forum posting rules are also pretty good you must read before you post so are they saying you have to spell check yourself and you have to proofread is that what they're saying no no they mean you must read are they saying you have to spell check yourself and you have to proofread is that what they're saying no no they mean you must read these guidelines before you post oh i thought there was like no no no they were just like no you can't read it before you've proofread it okay so here we go number one no profanity because race hate that's fine but f words that you're gonna upset someone you're just crossing a line you're going too far how. You're just crossing a line. You're going too far. How

dare you say fuck, but you can say all the racial slurs you want. Second one we've got is no personal flames. I don't understand what that means. Pardon? What does that mean? I don't know what that means at all. No personal flames. Maybe somebody knows. Can you tell us? Can you let us know? I don't think they are going to tell us because then they're going to be like, oh, well, I'm pretty au fait with white nationalist slang. Maybe it's just like another term that we don't know. I don't know. Maybe.

No attacks against other white nationalities. Fine. Makes sense. That fits into their ideology. That's all right. Next one. If you wish to debate religion, you must request to join the theology user group religion is a personal issue which often becomes bitterly divisive but you know the

color of my skin is not so personal an issue to me hannah i also think they probably don't really have that much of a problem of you talking about muslims either i think they're probably yeah but muslims fine you can talk about them all want. I think they mean the various subsects of the Christianity groups that they allow into this is what they mean by that. I also find it very interesting that they're creating like these little safe spaces where it's okay for people to talk about divisive subjects that might upset other people, you know, without distracting from all the fun of the race hate. That is, it's very bizarre. bizarre yeah you've got to level up if you want to talk about the philosophy of it got to go to the secret group oh and the last point

which is absolutely the best and most important make an effort to use proper spelling grammar punctuation and capitalization no all caps posts this immediately falls by the wayside within the first few posts that i read and i also enjoy that they're like the rest of them are like no no no none of this and then they're like just make an effort to use proper spelling I know I know it's hard but just make an effort because I think if they started to make it a requirement then no one would be able to post in this fucking group that I just don't think they can have that higher bar when they're trying to recruit into race eight group no probably not there's another disclaimer which is also great which is before you post anything remember that words have consequences that is so ironic that is such irony words have consequences don't post anything you wouldn't

want attributed to you in a court of law quoted on the front page of the new york times or read by your mother don't come back in a few months or years and ask us to delete all your posts because you can't take the heat or you've changed your mind it wouldn't make much difference now anyway since public posts are cached by search engines and recorded by countless other people with varying motives. Like to destroy your upcoming political career. They're so like conspiracy minded, even in their own fucking forum. It's some madness in that place. I couldn't spend as long in there as I did in the incel group.

It was just way too much. It was way too much for me to read what they were saying. So why did I bother at all trouncing through these websites? Well, because I am dangerously curious. I think that's fair to say. But I also, like with the incel episode, wanted to see just how these people were filling up their echo chambers with hate and anger. And yes, that's exactly what's happening. And once again, these forums are full of lonely young white men being radicalized and self-radicalizing. Now, it wasn't a huge surprise, but I thought it was important because of the way much of the media reported on Ruth and his attack. He was reported as another lone wolf shooter.

Oh, God. Okay, hear me out. Can we please stop using the phrase lone wolf? Please. And I don't want to just say let's stop using that term with no reason as to why. Like, I hate that shit. And this isn't about being politically correct. I hate that shit.

This is because it actually means something. Because, yes, he wasn't funded by anyone. He wasn't an immediate threat from another attacker. And this is just my opinion. But firstly, when you use that phrase, I feel like it glamorizes that kind of killer. The lone wolf. That's like a cool thing. It's just adding more fuel to the flames of like that martyrdom. Stop it. But secondly, and more importantly, I think it implies that it was just one guy. And now we don't need to worry because we found him. We've isolated the problem.

You're safe. He was alone and there's no one else. But that's just not true. We all know that no mass murderer truly acts alone. Because I saw it on those forums. Dylan Roof wasn't and isn't alone. Sure, this is all part of the evolution of terror we're seeing with all of these terrorist groups and hate groups. The idea of the evolution of terror we're seeing with all of these terrorist groups and hate groups, the idea of the leaderless revolution,

the old ways of the terrorist cells and the groups of men sat around plotting, is just like so passé. Now the armies of these terror groups are made up by disenfranchised young men who fit the profile of terrorists worldwide and who are no longer, now, as isolated as they used to be. Thanks to online radicalisation, lone wolves have found a pack and they are fully emboldened by it. I really want to sit here like we wanted to with the incels and just laugh at these tragically

frustrated angry men with their weird hair and shit tattoos. But the truth is, it doesn't really make me feel any better and it won't solve the problem. These men are in some way lost and frustrated and most often disconnected from the world. The three things everyone is looking for is surely community, belonging and purpose and these internet groups capitalise on that and radicalise their frustration into bigotry. I'm certainly not making excuses for their vile rhetoric. There are plenty of people who grow up in difficult disenfranchised situations far worse. And I don't believe that just poverty or being disenfranchised is a simple route to radicalisation or bigotry either. Privilege can be just as dangerous. Just look at Elliot Rodger. It's anything which isolates us and blinkers us from being able to see beyond

ourselves. But let's get back to the investigation. So now they've caught Ruth. And he's being very compliant in telling them exactly why he killed all of those people. He was convinced that white people were being subjected to genocide by people of colour. He told the FBI. And this is really, really fucking important. He told the FBI, I wanted to start a race war. But I almost didn't go through with it. Because everyone was so nice.

He means the people in the church that day were so nice to him that for a moment, he had second thoughts about killing them as they prayed. We'll post a link to the full two-hour FBI interrogation that you can watch of Dylan Roof. They say, you killed nine people because he doesn't even know how many people are dead when they arrest him. When they tell you killed nine people they say how does that make you feel and he says well it makes me feel bad what it's so confusing with him it's really really very confusing with him I don't I don't totally get it I think it's it's weird to me that he chose to sit with these people for an hour before he killed them i don't really see why he needed to do that like he could have just walked in and shot them and walked out and he sat outside

in his car for 45 minutes thinking about it before he even went in there yeah so it's it seems strange he does go on to say later that i had to kill these people because if i'd have just killed some black drug dealers no one would have cared. So it's like he picked people and a target and a situation and a location that was going to cause the most amount of pain possible because it makes sense it fits with his overall ultimate motive which was to start a race war. It's like with Manson kill Sharon Tate right the helter skelter stuff starting a race war You have to go after somebody who people are going to give a shit about and be emotionally wrought by.

Yeah, I just think he could have still done all of those things without sitting with them for an hour. I don't know why he did that. I don't know why he did that. It seems to me like he felt like, oh, I am so sure that these people need to die that I'm going to be able to sit with them for an hour and still know I'm doing the right thing.

You know, this is the thing. How do you overcome ignorance and bigotry? It's literally by being in the presence of other people who are not like you. And I do think it's really interesting. Is it? And someone correct me if I'm wrong. Chelsea Football Club, they're anybody who is, you know, the people that get thrown out of or suspended from being allowed to come to football games because they're like chanting racist things. They, Chelsea Football Club, are forcing those people now to go to auschwitz

really yeah that's really interesting it is interesting and i think they're trying to tackle the the pockets of like football racism and hooliganism that we see that ruins you know otherwise what's just like a great pastime for people and like kids go to this kind of thing you know fucking out by i think a really commendable and proactive way if that's happening, if that's still happening. I definitely read about that though. I think that's the thing about online radicalization as well. Like you're absolutely right. Like the way to overcome bigotry is to be in situations with people who aren't like you because everyone's just sort of in their own little pod on the internet. And it's entirely possible to write a whole manifesto

with this information you're gleaning from the internet without actually ever talking to a person, without ever going outside. So I think it's a symptom of the modern condition, I think. And I think if anybody wants to, I'm sure a lot of people probably watch this TED Talk. It did go viral when it came out a few months ago. If you haven't, I definitely would recommend going to watch a TED talk by a man called Christian Piccoloni. And it's called

My Descent Into America's Neo-Nazi Movement and How I Got Out. It is really interesting. And it's very similar. His story is really similar to that of Dylan Roof. He talks about how he went from being a normal 14-year-old kid to being radicalized overnight. Because that's one of the other things with Roof. He goes from being like a normal 14 year old kid to being radicalized overnight because that's one of the other things with Roof he goes from being like a normal slightly weird kid who had black friends and all of this to then being radicalized and almost overnight becoming a white supremacist and within a few months killing nine people it's a fascinating TED talk I would definitely recommend it so when the FBI also found the manifesto, they have just even more information. So he's being super open with them, telling them all the stuff. But when they find the manifesto,

his motives were completely cemented for them. They also found photos. So many, many, many, many photos. Because Dylan Roof loved posing and taking the creepiest fucking photos I've ever seen. They're so creepy. Like, just Google Dylan Roof. What's he doing? What's, like, an example? He has the same face in every single one. He's scowling. They're looking down and scowling.

But it's him with, like, the Confederate flag, another one with him burning the American flag. He's wearing a jacket that's got a pro-South African apartheid badges sewn onto it. Go look at them. It's his face. And they're all in the woods and shit like this. Like, he's fucking dark. And that bowl cut, it features in every single one. Mate, it's something. But the interrogations continued. And this was when more started to

come out of Ruth. You can tell, listening to the interviews, that he's not all there. And he really is quite reminiscent of Jeffrey Dahmer and some of the stuff he says. It's quite clear that he's a young man functioning at a very high level of anxiety especially about his appearance. He had no apparent sexual relationships. He dropped out of high school and instead earned a GED alone in his room with his computer. He was worried that his head was misshapen hence the bowl cut to hide his forehead. I also have a misshapen head. It is no joke. I do. It's totally flat at the back. You would never notice. Have you ever thought about a bowl cut? That's because I've got so much hair. Maybe you'd feel quite similar to him then. If my hair ever falls out, it's going to be the worst thing ever. Well, yeah. It's my secret will be out because my head is so misshapen. I mean, yeah, Dylan Roof did

say that if he ever went bald, he'd kill himself. I feel his pain on the misshapen head front. I really do. He supposedly thought that his testosterone was pooling on one side of his body when he slept. And he thought that was causing other physical issues in him. For example, he was convinced that this was making him lose all of his hair, including his eyelashes and pubic hairs, which would collect and count this is what i mean very like i definitely agree with you like very jeffrey dharma-esque the idea of thinking that like the testosterone is pulling to one side and misshapening his head and do you think maybe like

a touch of like schizophrenia like what's oh is this just like general delusions i think it's just from isolation to be honest. That's true. Because he's not, he hasn't gone to school for years. He doesn't really have many friends. I think anyone, if they spend that much time on their own, you're going to start having weird thoughts. And then you can convince yourself of anything

if you don't have anyone else to sort of bounce ideas off of, I think. People who knew him had informed the FBI that he was a weird 21 year old. But what about his childhood? And let's make this like super clear, because I've watched news articles and I've read things about this. They make it out like he was fucking he had the worst fucking childhood. Like, no, he fucking didn't. It's not great. And like wholesome isn't the word I'd use. But compared to some of the backstories we've covered, is really not that bad. So, and also, ignore the stories that he was part of, like, a poor white family who lived on the fringes of society, like Damien Eccles or something. No, absolutely fucking not. His granddad was and is a prominent attorney,

and his father is a building contractor who owns several properties around the state. They are not like, and I hate this phrase, but quote unquote white trash. No, they're not. He's not in that situation. At the time of the shooting, Roof was living with his mother in a massive house in Lexington. They are not what the media would have you, or like not the media, I don't want to sound all conspiracy minded, but what like a lot of reporting makes it sound like he was. And yeah, his dad sounds like not the best guy. He was super controlling and abusive to the women that he had in his life, of which there were many, many women. And it doesn't sound like he was around much. But let's be clear, Dylan Roof did not have a tough life. And I know that doesn't prove anything one way or another. I'm just saying because I want to

be clear on that fact. And we touched on this last week in terms of the conditions of creating a killer. And I think with killers, especially in a case like this, where yes, it's not a picture perfect life, but like literally who has that? The thing is, it's well within the realms of normalcy. There were 100% I can guarantee classmates of Dylan's who had it way, way worse. This is as it always is. Almost always is, should I say. It's about choice, environment and genetics. His father was a violent and controlling man who seemed to neglect his kids. Dylan seemed to have grown up comfortably, but with an apparent disconnect from the world and with no purpose. But ultimately, no matter what he says, this was his choice.

So now the FBI have everything they need. This is a cut and shut case in terms of Dylan's guilt. But what were they to charge him with? They charged him with a hate crime. And a hate crime is if the victim was killed because of his or her race, religion or sexual orientation. But, and this is just our opinion, so don't lose your minds, but is this not terrorism? I don't think that there is a standard definition of terrorism that is agreed upon across the world, but according to the US Code of Federal

Regulations, terrorism is defined as the unlawful use of force and violence against persons or property to intimidate or coerce a government, the civilian population, or any segment thereof, in furtherance of political or social objectives. So it all comes down to motive, right? That's what that description by the US Code of Federal Regulation says to me that it's about whether somebody does something in furtherance of to coerce the government, the civilian population in furtherance of a political or social objective. So if it all comes down to motive, can we ask was there a political or ideological agenda behind this attack? And it seems to us absolutely yes. He had a manifesto where he clearly laid out his intentions not only to kill black people in retaliation for some fictional genocide he believed was happening but vitally it was because he wanted to start a race

war and doesn't that fit with the idea to intimidate or coerce the civil population in furtherance of a political or social objective is that not what he's trying to do coerce a race war to start that's the only reason you write a manifesto surely like that's what he's been and also it's not even like he's trying to cover it up he's been incredibly open about his motives being politically charged and maybe some people listening might think that this is just semantics and this is only our opinion but i just think we should call it what it is and what this was in our opinion is an act of homegrown white nationalist terrorism. But legally speaking, how they defined it, what the FBI pursued, was that this was a hate crime. So let's talk about

that. Five days after the shooting, Ruth was charged with 33 felony counts. 12 of them were hate crimes and 18 others, including firearm and religious obstruction charges, were punishable by death. Religious obstruction is punishable by death. What? What does that actually mean, though? Like, you have to kill somebody who's trying to pray? I don't know. That's nuts. So on December 7th, 2017,

in a federal courthouse in Charleston, South Carolina, the trial of Dylan Roof began. He's now 22, but still he's tiny, swamped by the prison overalls that he wore on the first day of his trial. And his iconic blonde bowl cut just made him look like an actual child. In court, Roof pleaded guilty. And this confused some of the jurors during the selection process. Because why was there even a trial? Roof had offered to plead guilty in exchange for a life sentence.

But the Justice Department had not allowed it. It was ruled that the hate crime elements of the case warranted the harshest sentence at the government's disposal. They wanted the death penalty. And it's important to remember that this is just the federal trial. This isn't the state trial. This is just in federal court. And that does become important later on. So in court, Roof's single-mindedness and total lack of remorse became quickly apparent. He made statements like, quote, I realize these people are not criminals. They were in church. The court appointed a man named David Bruck to represent Roof. Bruck in 2015 had represented one of the Boston Bombers during his

federal trial. As Bruck delivered his opening statement, and this is really fucked up, Ruth's mum, who was sat in the front row of the court, sank down on the bench. At one point, she slumped over totally, and at first people thought that she had fainted, but she had in fact had a heart attack. She survived, but she didn't return to the trial. So much came out that hadn't been released until then.

The prosecution talked about how Ruth had sat in his car for some time, contemplating before going inside. He had loaded eight clips of hollow point ammunition for his Glock 45 semi-automatic handgun because he wanted to have 88 bullets, which is apparently the white nationalist code for Heil Hitler. What a loser. Aren't hollow points the one that explodes to heads? The thing is, I think somebody like messaged us about that. I don't know if they explode. I think it's just like they tear apart, they break apart inside you. So it's like shrapnel-y, something like that. By all accounts, Brooke sounds like a good defense attorney, and I think he did his best, but his relationship with Ruth was strained from the very beginning. Brooke tried to call for an assessment to have Ruth declared mentally unfit which Ruth freaked out about. Why isn't his attorney granddad representing him? He's a real estate attorney. Oh boo okay.

So he hates the lawyer he's been given so much that Ruth asks the judge if he could represent himself and he was allowed to do it. So Roof represented himself during jury selection, then passed it back to his counsel for the guilt phase before taking back representation for the penalty phase. The first witness the prosecution called was Felicia Sanders, a member of the Mother Emanuel congregation and had been one of the 12 people at Bible study the night Roof had attacked. She had escaped, but she'd not been so lucky.

She may have survived, but she watched her 26-year-old son, Tywanza, shot to death that night. In her testimony, she said, most of the time, talking about Ruth, he hung his head down just the way he's doing right now. He was there for 45 minutes to an hour. We stood up and shut our eyes to say final prayer, and that's when I heard the first shots. It was then that I watched as he put five bullets in my son. Felicia said as her son was shot dead, she lay on the floor shielding her little granddaughter. She said she was holding the girl so tightly that she was worried she might smother her. Alongside testimony like this, the jury also watched video after video of Ruth doing target practice. And they listened to the horrifying 911 call from Polly Shepard.

It's out there if you want to hear it. I don't think it adds anything to play it here. There was little doubt how the jury would rule. It became a trial in which the defense were desperately trying to go for a mistrial, then trying to get Roof declared insane, then just trying to save him from the lethal injection. Judge Gergel, who had presided over the trial, then turned to final sentencing. This trial has produced no winners, only losers. This proceeding cannot give the families what they truly want, the return of their loved ones. And with that, he sentenced Roof to death 18 times and handed down an additional 15 life sentences for the hate crimes and other charges. It took the judge 10 minutes to read the entire sentence.

So after the federal sentence was passed, it seemed like the Dylann Roof case would end up winding its way through countless difficult appeals and an equally painful state trial. But in April 2017, Dylann Roof pleaded guilty to all state charges. So this deal meant that there would be no state trial or state sentencing. So Dylann Roof is now on federal death row. And those who interact with Roof say now that he only really seems concerned with how his cats are doing without him, what's being written about him on his Wikipedia page,

and what he's going to wear to court, rather than worrying about things like atoning for his crimes. And despite his lack of remorse, he did ask if they would give him life rather than the death penalty, but obviously this was denied. And it is curious, because although he clearly does not want to die, he refused the only route he had to be spared, by resisting an autism diagnosis from a psychologist for the defence, saying, quote, autism is for nerds and losers. The state psychiatrist told me there's nothing wrong with me. I don't have autism.

I'm just a sociopath. And maybe he is, maybe he isn't. It's hard to tell with Roof. He's a man of intense contradictions. He told the FBI, if you remember earlier in the episode, in the initial interrogation, that he felt bad for what he had to do. But now, after all this time, all the time he's had to think about what he did, and all the people he hurt, Dylan Roof says, I want to make it crystal clear, I do not regret what I did. And perhaps it's bravado. He knows that he's going to die. So maybe it's better to die like a martyr to an aberrant subset of society than die a repentant idiot who killed so many people and then got himself killed? Whatever it is with Dylan Roof, we cannot reiterate this enough. It was his choice to do what he did and he's a total fucking scumbag. In the exact opposite mentality, it's unbelievable to see the

forgiveness and resilience shown by the families of the victims. Felicia Sanders faced Roof at his formal sentencing in 2017 and told him, I forgive you and may God have mercy on your soul. Now before we end this case, I just want to ask one thing of all of you. This case is absolutely going to evoke strong feelings in each and every one of you. So I just ask that you take a second. I had to take several. And when we're discussing this on Facebook, Twitter or Instagram, let's just try, be kind to each other. That's all we ask. So thank you for listening and we'll see you next week. You don't believe in ghosts? I get it. Lots of people don't. I didn't either, until I came face to face with them. Ever since that moment, hauntings, spirits, and the unexplained have consumed my entire life.

I'm Nadine Bailey. I've been a ghost tour guide for the past 20 years. I've taken people along with me into the shadows, uncovering the macabre tales that linger in the darkness, and inside some of the most haunted houses, hospitals, prisons, and more. Join me every week on my podcast, Haunted Canada, as we journey through terrifying and bone-chilling stories of the unexplained. Search for Haunted Canada on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you find your favorite podcasts.

Harvard is the oldest and richest university in America. But when a social media-fueled fight over Harvard and its new president broke out last fall, that was no protection. Claudine Gay is now gone. We've exposed the DEI regime, and there's much more to come. This is The Harvard Plan, a special series from the Boston Globe and WNYC's On the Media. To listen, subscribe to On the Media wherever you get your podcasts.