RedHanded - Episode 75 - William Melchert-Dinkel: "Webcam Suicide Nurse"

Episode Date: December 20, 2018

Celia Blay knew that William Melchert-Dinkel was a dangerous predator. He had been lurking in internet forums for years, manipulating vulnerable people into disingenuous suicide pacts . This week Hannah and Suruthi follow the bizarre case of the so called "webcam suicide nurse" and the woman who wouldn't stop until justice was served, even after authorities told her to look the other way. Canada Expert: Cheryl Nash   See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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BetMGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with iGaming Ontario. They say Hollywood is where dreams are made. A seductive city where many flock to get rich, be adored, and capture America's heart. But when the spotlight turns off, fame, fortune, and lives can disappear in an instant. Follow Hollywood and Crime, The Cotton Club Murder on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Hannah. I'm Saruti.

And welcome to Red Handed. Can you be responsible for the death of another person if you're not in the same room as them when they die? What about if you've never actually met them? What about if you're on the other side of the world? We're going to be talking a lot about suicide and assisted suicide in this week's episode, so if that's something you find particularly troubling or difficult to think about, perhaps this one isn't for you. Having said that, it's an issue that should be talked about.

We also get into some quite nitty-gritty legals, so you have been warned, bring your best law hat. In the first week of September 2007, Nadia Kajugi started Carleton University in Ottawa, which is in Canada, in case you don't know. She was a pretty normal teen, but very smart. Carleton is a good school. And I also found out, whilst talking to our Canadian consultant Cheryl, that Carleton University has a network of underground tunnels with loads of emergency phones in it. So students don't have to go outside to navigate the entire campus. Apparently it's creepy down there, which I can imagine. That's horrifying. Is that because of the weather? Because it's so cold. Yeah. Wow. Bloody hell. Nadia was ambitious. She was keen to pursue a career in law.

And she also had her eye on eventually becoming a politician. Her brother described her as someone who could do anything she put her mind to. If she decided to do it, she would excel in it. What was good enough for someone else wasn't good enough for her. She was a natural overachiever. Carlton's excellent reputation as a school, however, wasn't the only thing that attracted Nadia to the university. According to her father, Mohammed, Nadia picked the school because it was a four and a half hour drive away from her parents' house just outside Toronto. Nadia's parents, by their own admission, were very protective of her, and Nadia wanted a bit of room to breathe. She wanted to be far enough away that it wouldn't be easy for her parents to just drop in and check on her. One of the ways Carlton sold itself to Nadia Kajugi's

parents was the excellent pastoral care system. They were assured that all of the students would be fully provided for medically. All students could see doctors and counsellors without ever having to even leave the campus. And with the use of the subterranean tunnel system, they didn't even have to go outside to see them. Crystal Leonov lived in the room next to Nadia Kajugi in Prescott Hall at Carlton. She described Nadia as a very happy person who was very clever and destined for greatness. But for Nadia, like for lots of other people, her first year of university was much harder than she thought it would be.

What was your first year like? I can't remember. No, I really sympathize with Nadia. I think everybody does because my parents aren't particularly ever protective of me. But still, you know, I grew up in a small town. I was ready to go to Birmingham, the big city. And, you know, it's like, what what two and a half hour drive from my house, total freedom, total autonomy for the first time in your life. And I just use that to be drunk

quite a lot of the time, I think. And also when they tell you first year doesn't even count towards your final degree. So it's like you just got a pass, just got a pass. What was yours like? I had a miserable fucking time. Miserable. I hated it. Did you? I'm surprised by that. I nearly dropped out. I think it was Did you? I'm surprised by that. I nearly dropped out. I think it was because, because I didn't go to university straight from school. I was in a training theatre company for a year. And that was a very different environment because I was still living in halls and everything.

But there was 28 of us and we all had to be in the same place at the same time 24-7. So you were never on your own. Like a Mormon. Well, no, not really. Like we all just took class together. Like it was a group of a cohort of 28. And we all did the same thing all the time. So when I got to university, and the people in my flat, I was expecting it to be the same. Like we'll all eat breakfast together and go to the same and it was not that. It can definitely be a very like lonely experience, depending on the luck or lack of luck that you have and who you meet in that first year.

Exactly. Yeah. I was like oh I'll go and see what the drama society are doing and they were doing the fucking vagina monologues and I was like I refuse I refuse to go anywhere near that show oh really I went to go see the vagina monologues like three years ago on Valentine's Day in Cambridge I went to go and see shame in the cinema on my own on Valentine's Day one year you shouldn't pay it as much respect as that as a holiday. What? Valentine's Day. I didn't realise and then I got to the cinema and there were all these couples and I was like oh it's February 14th. Shame is a weird thing to be watching as a couple. Isn't it? On Valentine's Day. Isn't it just? That's a troubling film. I watch French extremity horror like it's nothing and I found shame quite troubling. Yeah it was a

weird day. If you are in your first year of uni and you're finding it hard so is everyone else. It's uh everyone is feeling like you're feeling and it gets better vastly. Definitely my master's year was my best year of uni 100%. The reason we know all of this about Nadia is she kept a detailed video diary. She never shared it with anyone just like a normal diary but it was all on video on her computer. In her first few months at uni Nadia broke up with her long-term hometown boyfriend but she didn't stay single for long. Nadia got a new boyfriend at Carlton. If her video diary is anything to go by she was absolutely head over heels in love with him in a matter of weeks. She sang a lot of songs while playing guitar with lyrics like you make me sure I've never been in love before. But love's young dream wasn't to last and Nadia's video diaries took a dark turn as her new beau lost interest. Nadia fell pregnant and before Christmas she had lost the baby. This was not a

planned pregnancy. Nadia told her video diary I didn't want to get pregnant. I didn't choose to get pregnant and then I miscarried. So I couldn't choose whether to keep the child or not keep the child. During this particular video entry, Nadia is sitting facing the camera, but she's wearing what looks like an eye mask that they give you on a plane. And she's wearing it the whole time she's talking. Nadia told her mum, Deborah, about the miscarriage, but not her dad. After the lost pregnancy, Deborah saw a real change in her daughter. And anyway, the winter was a difficult time for Nadia. This miscarriage, though, does seem to have been the turning point for Nadia's morale. You can see the change in her in her video diary. She becomes visibly withdrawn. And the difference in her mannerisms in just a few short months is quite terrifying. Once she was full of energy playing love songs on a guitar but the

post-Christmas heartbroken Nadia now appeared sad and slow in her video diary. Nadia went home to visit her parents again in February and this was when her mother saw that she was not herself and that she was visibly depressed. When her dad asked her what was wrong Nadia told him not to push her and that she would talk about it when she was ready. And with that, she returned to university, 300 miles away from her family in Ottawa. The next month, Ottawa faced 20 inches of fresh snow. And on the 9th of March 2008, Nadia missed an appointment with an on-site mental health counsellor that she had been seeing regularly. Music had been playing loudly from her room all night.

But she did this a lot, so nothing particularly out of the ordinary here. This playing of loud music and never emerging from her room had gone on for weeks. According to her halls of residence neighbour, Crystal Leonov, Nadia would lock herself in her room and not come out. If she did come out, she was very different. She would look at you, but she wouldn't really look at you. It was as if she wasn't there. Crystal and other students living in Prescott Hall

were sufficiently worried enough to call campus security and explain that they thought Nadia might be suicidal. But no one took any action until the 9th of March, when security let themselves into Nadia's room. By the time they opened the door, the music had stopped. Nadia's iPod was paused mid-track, and Nadia was gone. Nadia had sent an email to her flatmates that night saying that she was going ice skating. Her prom dress was hanging in her room,

not in her wardrobe. She had taken her winter coat but not her wallet that contained all of her money and credit cards. In the words of her father when he saw the scene, she wasn't going far, wherever she was going. Mohammed and Deborah had been trying to get hold of Nadia for days, but they'd had no luck, and they wouldn't receive a phone call from security at Carleton University for another 48 hours after Nadia's room was found empty. When they did call Nadia's parents, they simply asked whether she was at home with them, because she wasn't at university. But of course Nadia wasn't at home. Nadia's dad and brother got to Ottawa as soon as they could and the search was on. But remember, Nadia had already been gone for two days. She could have gone anywhere in that

time. But how far could she really get with no money and just a coat on her back? Mohamed Kajugi and his son Mark searched the snow-covered city, but as the hours wore on, they started to lose hope. It came to light that Nadia had told the counsellor and the doctor that she had been seeing at Carlton that she couldn't sleep, she was suffering from severe mood swings,

and as a result she was prescribed antidepressants. Her increasingly concerning video entries revealed even more. One video uncovered by the police showed Nadia talking about killing herself. She told the webcam, I'm depressed. I have postpartum mood disorder, clinical depression and insomnia. Yes, I've thought about suicide. Maybe I wouldn't be thinking about it if I could sleep and be happy.

But no, you're unwilling to give me the medication to get me to sleep. Whilst her family were still searching for their daughter, Carlton Campus Security revealed a piece of information to Mohamed Kajugi. They weren't able to tell him when exactly this incident had happened, but sometime in the lead up to her disappearance, Nadia had to be collected by an ambulance from a restaurant in Ottawa because she was holding razor blades and telling everyone in the room, if somebody doesn't help me, I'm going to hurt myself. Even after this incident though, no action was taken by any staff at the university, and her parents weren't told about it until days after she had already disappeared into thin air.

And I just think, you can't help but think, if her parents had known about this, they would have intervened in some way. Perhaps they could have stopped her going back to Ottawa after Christmas, or in February when she'd visited them again. I think it's an interesting one because I wonder at what point you're allowed to contact a student's parents. Like, I just wonder what the legislation to do with that is because there surely has to be some sort of confidentiality agreement. Like, I can't imagine.

I don't think it would be about legislation. I think it would be about university policy around safeguarding. Yeah, that's what I mean. It's just the experience I have from doing safeguarding policy within schools and working with the people responsible for that. When somebody makes a disclosure to you, when a child makes a disclosure to you of abuse or of suicide contemplation or anything like that, teachers can never, aren't allowed to promise confidentiality. But she's not a child. I think that's the difference. I know, but I think why would she need confidentiality in this case from her parents? I would be surprised if a

university had a policy of confidentiality around something like this. I think when it's a safeguarding issue, I don't think there are confidentiality regulations or policies in place. I think it's when it's something like if you get pregnant or you ask for the birth control or something like that, they're not allowed to tell you. If it's a safeguarding issue, which absolutely somebody saying, if somebody doesn't help me, I'm going to hurt myself and holding a razor blade up to yourself, that's a safeguarding issue. I don't think this was that they were thinking about this and thinking, oh, we can't tell her parents because of confidentiality policies. I think this just, people just didn't take any action and it's completely tragic.

I would be really alarmed if they had a confidentiality policy on this. And as police delved deeper and deeper into Nadia's computer files, the more suicidal thoughts they found. They also discovered that as well as keeping her video diary, Nadia had been frequenting online suicide forums and chat rooms. According to Ottawa Police Detective Erday Jaswal, Nadia had visited multiple public suicide sites and was looking into all the different ways she could end her life.

But that's not all they found. Nadia hadn't just been lurking these sites. She had been interacting with other people on them. She had spent a lot of time speaking to one particular user who called themselves Cammy D. Cammy D was in the same boat as Nadia. She was a little bit older in her 20s, working as a nurse and was contemplating suicide. Cammy D didn't try and make Nadia feel better about her life or even try to dissuade her from suicide. Cammy D actively encouraged Nadia to kill

herself. Cammy D told Nadia that she should hang herself in front of her webcam at the same time as Cammy D while Cammy D watched. She was trying to initiate a suicide pact. The transcripts of these conversations are really grim. Cammy D calls Nadia hun a lot and tells her it would be better if they killed themselves together. It's just vile.

She kind of frames it in a like, oh, well, if we do it together, you won't be as scared and you won't bottle it. Like that's the way it's spoken about. Cammy D promised to make sure that Nadia knew how to tie the knots, what rope to use and where she could suspend herself from in the room. But Nadia had other ideas. She told Cammy D that she was planning to jump off a bridge and through the ice of the Rydia River next to the Carlton campus. Nadia wanted her death to look like an accident

to make it as easy on her family as possible. She told Cammy D that she would wear ice skates when she jumped through the ice to make it look like a skating accident. And I asked Canadian expert Cheryl about this because I found it really difficult to believe that someone would just go ice skating on a river on their own. But apparently, that's pretty normal in Ottawa. In fact, carlton students

get around like that most of the winter that's mad isn't it madness that i said to sharon i was like that is absolutely bonkers and she was like yeah it's canada oh my god and she's from ottawa like i can't ice skate for shit no i'm not particularly adept at ice skating either but maybe maybe if i was a an ottawan maybe my friends a couple of years ago, we went to New York for my birthday and they got me a surprise ice skating trip to that ice skating rink in Central Park. They're fucking bollocks. They all wanted to do it. I didn't want to do that.

And somehow we ended up there on my birthday going ice skating. Or should I say the three of them ice skated while I pathetically clung to the side. Oh no, you're a wall clinger. I can't do it. It's not in my're a wall clinger. I can't do it. It's not in my genes to be that cold. I can't cope. It's like fucking freezing. I'm so glad to be under the duvet fort today.

I'm absolutely freezing. It's cold. It's very cold. Ah, fuck it. I'm getting a flight in seven hours to India and it's 30 degrees for 12 days. You're going to be winding about that. Yeah, I'll try not to. So there you have it.

In Canada, ice skating is not just a hobby or something Saruti's friends force her to do on her birthday when she doesn't want to. For some, it is a genuine means of transport.

But back to the day that Nadia was reported missing, there was a final conversation left on Nadia's computer. Nadia told Kami D that, quote, things are going to end tonight. Kami D said

that she was disappointed that they couldn't go out together. And as far as we know, these are going to end tonight. Kamiti said that she was disappointed that they couldn't go out together. And as far as we know, these are the last words that Nadia Kajiji ever said to anyone. As soon as her father Mohammed saw this conversation, his heart sank. He knew that Nadia was gone. And he was right. Nadia had jumped through the hole in the ice on the Raiji River. Her body wasn't recovered for six weeks until the spring thawed the snow.

Nadia's cause of death was determined to be hypothermia. But we're going to leave this tragic image in Canada for a moment and hop over the pond to the UK. Why will become clear in a moment, we hope. We're flying over to the UK to meet Celia Blay, who turns out to be a key player in this story. In 2007, Celia was a retired school teacher. Although one of the documentaries that we watched for this case,

they introduce her with this really weird voiceover. They say, Celia Blais is known as a horsewoman. What does that mean? Like she's some sort of like centaur beast that lives in a cave with like horse legs. I don't know. I think she owns a riding school or something like that. So do they mean like cowboy? She's a horsewoman. Like what? A horsewoman. I honestly don't know, but it she owns a riding school or something like that. So do they mean like cowboy? She's a horsewoman.

Like what? A horsewoman? I honestly don't know, but it's, it just made me laugh. But she's not a horsewoman. She's a normal middle-aged lady from Berkshire. Is that Berkshire? No, it's definitely not. It's definitely Berkshire.

So what's Berkshire? Is that? Doesn't exist. That's not a place? She was saying it wrong your whole life. Oh, so you don't write B-A-R-K-S? H? No. Oh, never mind. Carry on.

The more you know. It's like you wouldn't say Derby. You say Darby, don't you? Whatever. I just thought Berkshire and Berkshire were two different places. No, they are the same. Fuck off. I'm going to Google Berkshire. I reckon that's all right. You carry on. I Googled Berkshire and it's the Berkshire is a resort for dogs that sounds amazing that's the first thing that comes up okay carry on so uh just for the record everyone Hannah is correct so Ruthie is incorrect Celia lost both of her elderly parents within quite quick succession of each other she took care of them in their old age so when they passed away Celia found herself in a pretty dark place like Nadia Celia found her way to suicide discussion forums. Sometimes they were serious and supportive,

and other times, Celia found people who were actively attempting to push people over the edge. Celia began chatting to a young woman from South America. This 17-year-old told Celia that she had entered into a suicide pact with someone who was using the screen name Lee Dow. They had both agreed to hang themselves on webcam to each other at 4pm that coming Friday. Celia did all she could to dissuade her newfound friend from her pack. Lee Dao claimed to be a young nurse in her 20s. She called the South American teen Hun,

just like Kami D had called Nadia Kajugi. Celia kept digging and found her newfound Latin American friend was not the only one in a suicide pact with Li Dao. Many people on the forum were in pacts with the same user, all for different times. How could Li Dao be planning on killing themselves dozens of times over? And as you may have guessed, there was a lot more to Li Dao than a sympathetic nurse in her 20s. Celia Blay also had this hunch. And feeling like something had to be

done, she marched down to her local police station with the transcripts of the online chats that she had collected, and this in her mind, when she walked in with these transcripts, proved that this Lee Dow character was in multiple suicide packs with multiple different people. Celia was sure that when she presented this evidence, obviously pointing towards fraudulent activity, the police would start an investigation. Blais knew that although suicide was not illegal in the UK, assisting, aiding or abetting suicide has been illegal since the 1961 Suicide Act was passed.

For Cecilia Blais, Lee Dow was so clearly a predator, trying to push people to kill themselves. People's lives were quite literally at risk. This had to be a matter for the police. But Celia Blay was bitterly disappointed when her local police department couldn't give a toss. One officer said to Celia, if it bothers you, look the other way. So our mate Celia Blay took matters into her own hands, and she decided that she would have to hunt down this young woman, encouraging vulnerable people to kill themselves so that she could watch them die. Celia uncovered that Lee Dow wasn't the only name this person was using online. They also went by Falcon Girl and Cammy D,

the same person who had been talking to Nadia Kajuju before she disappeared. Celia was not having this. I love Celia. She's just been like, oh, the police aren't going to help me. I'm going to do it my goddamn self. I love her. And she's not having it. So she rallied all of her online friends to set up a sting operation to catch this person, whoever they were, in the act. Kat Lowe from Wolverhampton was one of the users that Celia enlisted. She was already in a dialogue with Li Dao. So Catlow asked them to send a picture of themselves. Li Dao sent a Christmas jumper type family portrait photograph

of a middle-aged looking man standing next to a woman who, to my totally untrained eye, certainly did not look like she was in her 20s, but maybe I'm just being a bitch. Harvard is the oldest and richest university in America. But when a social media-fueled fight over Harvard and its new president broke out last fall, that was no protection. Claudian Gay is now gone. We've exposed the DEI regime, and there's much more to come. This is The Harvard Plan, a special series from the Boston Globe and WNYC's On the Media. To listen, subscribe to On the Media wherever you get your podcasts. turns off, fame, fortune, and lives can disappear in an instant. When TV producer Roy Radin was found dead in a canyon near L.A. in 1983, there were many questions surrounding his death. The last person seen with him was Lainey Jacobs, a seductive cocaine dealer who desperately wanted to be part

of the Hollywood elite. Together, they were trying to break into the movie industry. But things took a dark turn when a million dollars worth of cocaine and cash went missing. From Wondery comes a new season of the hit show Hollywood and Crime, The Cotton Club Murder. Follow Hollywood and Crime, The Cotton Club Murder on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge all episodes of The Cotton Club Murder early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge all episodes of The Cotton Club Murder early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus. I'm Jake Warren, and in our first season of Finding, I set out on a very personal quest

to find the woman who saved my mom's life. You can listen to Finding Natasha right now exclusively on Wondery Plus. In season two, I found myself caught up in a new journey to help someone I've never even met. But a couple of years ago, I came across a social media post by a person named Loti. It read in part, Three years ago today that I attempted to jump off this bridge, but this wasn't my time to go.

A gentleman named Andy saved my life. I still haven't found him. This is a story that I came across purely by chance, but it instantly moved me and it's taken me to a place where I've had to consider some deeper issues around mental health. This is season two of Finding, and this time, if all goes to plan, we'll be finding Andy. You can listen to Finding Andy and Finding Natasha exclusively and ad-free on Wondery+. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Li Dao confirmed that she was the woman in the picture.

But then something incredible happened. Both Li Dao and Kat Lowe had their webcams activated during the conversation in which the photo was exchanged. And Li Dao, just for a few moments, stepped in front of the camera. Lee Dow was not a nurse in her 20s. She wasn't even the woman in the Christmas jumper photograph. Lee Dow, Falcon Girl and Cammy D were actually a middle-aged man. The quick-thinking cat took a picture of the man on the screen with her mobile phone. The person claiming to be the young, depressed nurse luring people into disingenuous suicide pacts was the man in the photograph. He had revealed himself. Then this man makes another

mistake. He used his real name in the file name of the photo. And his name was William Melchert Dinkle. And he was a nurse, but everything else was a lie. He was 46, married with two young daughters, and living in Ferrybolt, Minnesota. Super Sleuth Celia also managed to track down William Melchert Dinkle's IP address, and armed with this new information, Celia Blay headed back to her local police station, but again, they showed little to no interest. But Celia would not quit. She attempted to get the evidence she had collected to the FBI, but it never made it. Blay reckons that since she started her investigation, at least

five people died as a result of their suicide packs, with Melchett Dinkle's many online identities. Celia Blay made contact with police in Canada after reading about Nadia Kajugi's death in the news. Canadian authorities made one single phone call to Minnesota. Detective Erday Jaswal tried to explain this away by arguing that they couldn't be sure that the IP address linked to Melchett Dinkle's house meant that he was the one behind the online suicide packs. But you don't even want to check? Of course it doesn't mean that he definitely was, but you don't even want to fucking go have a look. One single call to Minnesota. I think what it must be is that an IP address is not sufficient for a search warrant.

I think that's what he's arguing. But when I first read that, I was like, that's bullshit. But I think it seems like because there were other occupants in the house, they couldn't definitely prove it was him. I mean, it's not very likely that it was his two daughters or his wife. An IP address is not enough. It doesn't tell you exactly who's at the keyboard, but we can make a pretty fucking educated guess. This is the thing. I can get my head around the fact that the IP address isn't enough because, you know, they can be, I'm sure they can be cloned or whatever. Anybody probably knows more about this than me, but I get that that wouldn't

be enough. But they also had a photo of him but not connected to a Canadian case because the picture that Catlow has taken doesn't really seem to help the Canadian police because it's taken in the UK to do with a completely separate thing I think possibly is why it doesn't add yeah and fair enough I guess it's like also that we are looking at this case in its entirety after knowing how it concludes and knowing that he's the person. So we do have like an element of confirmation bias being like, why didn't they just look into this person? But she is just a random woman who appears and is like, here's an IP address, here's some screenshots of some conversations. Go get him. You'd get laughed out of court if you took that in. I do understand. I'll stop yelling now. Having said that, watch Erday Jaswal. You can watch this interview online. And as he's trying to explain himself, he is visibly sweating. Like he just can't,

he like fluffs his words constantly. Like he knows it sounds as if they should have done something. So at this stage, the British police, the Canadian police and the American authorities are not pursuing the

evidence presented by Celia Blay. But this woman is just, she's fantastic because she still doesn't stop. Blay stumbled across an organization called the Task Force on Internet Crimes Against Children, which was based in St. Paul, Minnesota, just an hour or so from William Melchett Dinkle's house. Celia Blay sent all of her evidence to this task force and they were received by Sergeant Paul Schnell. Now, we usually associate the words assisted suicide with a clinic in Switzerland. Me personally, at least, I want to associate it with the hope of a dignified death as opposed to a long drawn out one being coerced by somebody else have you watched the most recent louis theroux series no i've altered states no i watched the

very first episode the one on what was it on polygamy or as they called it ethical non-monogamy that was it yeah i was like that's a good one that's a good one i like it good one and then it got very heavy and i was like i didn't watch the one about assisted suicide and I think the next one was about adoption which I also just yeah it was called take my baby oh my god I just can't I can't I can't I haven't even been watching David Attenborough's dynasties because I can't cope are you kidding it's amazing I can't they will die all the animals just die I can't no not the monkey doesn't until afterwards. Until afterwards, immediately after, like the day after they release the thing where they're like, oh, and that animal died.

No, I just, I can't deal with animals dying. I can't deal with stuff like this. However, I think the Louis Theroux assisted suicide documentary is worth a watch. I think it's done in a very I heard that it was the first one that he looks quite like not sure how to that he looks a bit uncomfortable in yeah I mean there's one scene where he's there when someone dies with their family when someone is very ill in my experience they're right up until the very very end they're still sort of a person walking around doing things and talking to you and they're the same and then there's a very very rapid decline and they capture that so beautifully in this documentary they deal with this man who knows he's done he's going to die in the next year he just doesn't know when so he's deciding with his family when to end it basically

and louie's there for the whole thing it makes a good case for it i think to be honest with the podcast with work with like i just i can't watch that kind of thing right now. I feel like my only reprieve is to watch, like, fucking 40 Day Fiancé or, like, Monsters Inside Me or some shit like that. Like, I just can't cope with this right now. But I will. I know it's, I know it's important. I will watch it eventually. So the point is, if they are going to go after William Melchett Dinkle, what he's doing should fall under the assisted suicide law in Minnesota.

And the state of Minnesota is actually particularly tough on assisted suicide. So tough, in fact, that the law extends to anyone who encourages, aids or directs another to take their own life, whether the suicide actually happens or not, which is definitely what Melchett Dinkle was up to. But despite Schnell and his team building a case against him, Melchett Dinkle didn't stop. He contacted another young Canadian woman who, like Nadia, was not even 20 yet and he tried to encourage her to commit suicide for five whole months in 2008. But this

19-year-old Canadian had been warned about Melchett Dinkle by other members of the forum, so she was wise to his games. Melchett Dinkle asked her questions like, do you want to die soon? Maybe Monday or something like that. Can you maybe die on Saturday? It's like he's trying to force her to go have a coffee with him. Five months after these conversations, in January 2009, the Minnesota Police Department visited William Melchert Dinkle at his home. He almost immediately admitted that he'd pretended to be a young female nurse and had used various screen names to encourage people to kill themselves. He estimated that five of those that he'd spoken to had ended their lives.

But later, he said the real death toll could be in the dozens. When Sergeant Schnell asked Melchert Dinkle why he had encouraged all of these vulnerable people to end their lives so he could watch, he replied that he did it for the thrill of the chase. The thrill of the chase? What does he even mean by that? I think it's about manipulation. The thrill of the chase. What does he even mean by that? I think it's about manipulation. It's a power thing. I think I am so powerful.

I can make these people make the ultimate sacrifice because I told them to. And I can engineer exactly how I want it to happen. Absolutely. And I think you're right. It's definitely about power and control. And it's like this feeling of almost like total omnipotence where it's like I'm not even in the same room I don't have a knife up against your neck I don't have a gun to your head making you do this I'm manipulating you to do it yourself he sat there thinking that he's totally getting off on this but the thrill of the chase is a fucking who does he think he is a fucking bond villain he's

such a prick Schnell and his team were totally stunned by how unbothered Melchett Dinkle appeared and his willingness to discuss minute details. This is weird. Do you think it's strange that he just immediately admits to this? Or is he the kind of guy that he's so proud of what he's done that he wants everyone to know about it? I think it's a bit of both. I think he thinks they can't touch him because he's like, I haven't done anything illegal. I've just been talking.

I think it's a combination of like exactly that, wanting everybody to see how clever he is that he's manipulated all these people to do it. Because, you know, he's saying like it could have been in the dozens that this was the case, you know, that these people killed themselves. But at the same time, I think, like you said, I didn't put a gun to their head.

They chose to do it. But Melchett Dinkle's computer was seized and the task force found everything they were expecting to find. Melchett Dinkle had been speaking to 32-year-old Mark Dryborough from Coventry in the UK in 2005. Melchett Dinkle had given Mark detailed instructions whilst using his Lee Dow screen name on how to hang himself. So this is before Nadia Kajugi. This is way back in 2005. So it's clear that he's been at this for years. And the fact is that they find all this on his computer like he's been cataloging his kills. So Mark Dreiberer had suffered from significant mental and physical health problems for many years. And in a series

of online conversations with Melchett Dinkle, Mark Dreiber had described an existence in which he was trapped between a life so miserable that he wanted to end it. And the fear, uncertainty, and even occasional bouts of hope for a better future that prevented him from following through on his suicidal thoughts. Mark Dreiber had described practicing the hanging method that Melchett Dinkle had taught him, but he was unable to fully commit and worried about his parents seeing the marks on his neck.

Through all of this, Melchett Dinkle presented himself as a compassionate and caring nurse, not only who could relate to Mark's misery, but could provide practical advice due to her medical experience. In Mark Dreiber's last message sent on July 23rd, 2005, he told Melchett Dinkle that he was scared. Hours later, Mark Dryborough was found by his sister, Carol. He had hanged himself.

Communication with Mark Dryborough was not the only thing they found on Melchett Dinkle's computer. Officers also found a picture of Nadia Kajugi. Despite these findings, no arrest was made. Melchett Dinkle had started his communication with Nadia after Celia Blay had been turned away by the police in the UK. Soon after his visit from the police department, Melchett Dinkle took himself to a local A&E. According to hospital records, he told the staff there that he suffered from a suicide fetish, that he was addicted to suicide websites. And both of these afflictions caused him to feel guilty and worthless.

That's him just being like, it's not my fault. I'm sick. I have a mental issue. I'm addicted to it. It's a disease. He does this at an A&E. What the fuck? Can you imagine what those nurses at A&E are dealing with? People have cut their fingers off and stuff. And it's like, I'm addicted to suicide websites. Fuck off, dickhead. And also, he's a nurse.

Let's not forget that. He knows exactly what he's doing. But he wasn't a nurse for very long. The Minnesota Board of Nursing revoked William Melchett Dinkle's license for reasons of incompetence, mistreatment of patients and, quote unquote, unethical conduct in aiding suicides. But still, no arrest. The thing is that although Minnesota had the law against the assisting of suicide, it had never been used to prosecute someone for encouraging suicide over the internet. When approached by documentary filmmaker Bob McCowan and asked about the deaths he had encouraged, Melchett Dinkle said on camera,

nothing is going to come of it and that he had moved on with his life. How good for him. Exactly. It's all right for you, kid, isn't it? But he wouldn't be allowed to just ignore this issue for much longer. Schnell and his task force handed over all of the evidence they had compiled to Rice County Prosecutor Paul Beaumaster, who began to build a case. And in April 2010, William Melchett Dinkle was charged with attempting to assist in the suicide of Nadia Kajugi and for

abetting the suicide of Mark Dreiberer. The reason the charge relating to Nadia was only attempted is that Nadia didn't follow Melchett Dinkle's instructions, whereas Mark Dreiberer killed himself just as he had been instructed to by Melchett Dinkle. These charges were groundbreaking. All other assisted suicide charges in Minnesota up until that point had concerned the instigating individuals being physically present at the time of death. Whilst Melchett Dinkle was awaiting trial, he was not allowed to use the internet. Seems wise. Yeah, good. Good decision.

But now we get into tricky legal territory. Because suicide is not illegal in the UK, in Canada, or in Minnesota. But assisted suicide is. In order to find William Melchett Dinkle guilty and convict him, Bowmaster had to prove that what Melchett Dinkle did amounted to aiding suicide under the law of Minnesota, even though he had never met Nadia or Mark. The law in Minnesota was this, any person who intentionally advises, encourages, or assists another in taking off the other's own life will be subject to a penalty of up to 15 years in prison and a fine of up to

$30,000. The trial dragged on as trials do, but on the 15th of March 2011, Melchett Dinkle was found guilty of encouraging and advising suicide. He was sentenced on the 4th of May to 360 days in prison. And this next part, I have never heard anything like this before in a sentence. No, neither have I. This is like quite remarkable because Judge Thomas Newville also required that William Melchett Dinkle return to jail on the anniversaries of Mark Dryborough and Nadia Kajugi's deaths for the next 10 years. So what, just for like the day? I think so, that he just has to go and sit in jail for the day to think about what he's done.

Wow, some creative sentencing there. Isn't it? I've never ever come across anything like it. Me either. Now Melchett Dinkle wasted no time on the inside. And by the 27th of July 2012, he had already appealed his conviction and the Minnesota Supreme Court agreed to review his case. Melchett Dinkle was represented by Terry Watkins. And I know that Melchett Dinkle should absolutely be in prison for what he did. But Terry Watkins is a shit hot lawyer. The way he constructs his argument is beautiful. And I feel really guilty way he constructs his argument is beautiful,

and I feel really guilty and gross for saying it, but honestly, it is amazing. Watkins argued that not only was charging William Melchert Dinkle with assisted and attempted assisted suicide unjust, he argued that the Minnesotan law against advising and encouraging suicide was unconstitutional. Watkins told the Supreme Court of Minnesota that there was no doubt what his client had done was deplorable, but it was not illegal. And actually, Melchett Dinkle telling Nadia Kajugi and Mark Drybra how to kill themselves was protected by the First Amendment, which, if we need to remind ourselves, states that Congress shall make no law abridging the freedom of speech. Above all else, the government has no power to restrict expression because of its message,

its ideas, its subject matter, or its content. I've read the transcript of the appeal hearing in full, and I hope that I've managed a bite-sized breakdown of the basic argument that's made by attorney Terry Watkins. So let's start from the top. The Minnesotan law was very clear on no assisting, no encouraging, no advising suicide. Watkins argued that assisting suicide, sure, that should be illegal. But the word assisting was not mentioned in Melchett Dinkle's sentencing at his trial. If you remember, he was convicted of encouraging and advising suicide. Encouraging or advising someone to commit suicide is not the same thing as assisting them, but the Minnesotan law at the time bundled them all together. What Watkins is pushing for is removal of the words advising and encouraging from the law on

the grounds of them being unconstitutional, and that would mean that Melchett Dinkle's sentence would be vacated. Next, Watkins explains why Melchett Dinkle's suicide advice is protected by the First Amendment. Speech is protected by the First Amendment unless it is specific speech that is integral to an unlawful act or that imminently incites lawless conduct. But suicide is not illegal. And therefore, Watkins argued that Melchett Dinkle's speech, however abhorrent, was protected. The state of Minnesota attorney Bowmaster argued in the first trial that Melchett Dinkle's speech was not protected by the First Amendment because his communications with the victims involved deceit, fraud, and lies. Because remember, he's totally pretending to be a different person,

and he never intended to kill himself with them. Those people thought they were getting into suicide packs with this woman. And some speech isn't protected by the First Amendment, and fraud falls under this category. But again, Watkins is ready for him. Speech doesn't need to be true to be protected. He furthered that Melchett Dinkle's speech was not fraud because he didn't stand to make any financial or material gain from it, which is stipulated in the legal definition of fraud. So the state's argument again doesn't hold up. Next Watkins goes in for linguistics, arguing that assist implies the context of physical assistance, which speech alone is not. And he did it. The court ruled that the words advises and encourages be taken out of the Minnesota state

law regarding assisting suicide, because they were a violation of the constitution. And as the word assisted was left out of his original sentencing, William Melchett Dinkle's sentence was vacated by the Supreme Court on the 19th of March 2014. I think this trial is an example of, emotionally I feel like, but it's wrong, what he's doing is wrong. But there's nothing in the law to stop him from doing it. And I think that's why it's so frustrating. Whether there's nothing in the law or not, it doesn't mean that those things can't be amended and added into the law. This kind of thing, how often does it happen? Especially they said this is the first time that something like this

was ever going to be used to prosecute somebody or attempt to prosecute somebody for doing something like this over the internet. But we know that's the world in which people live now. That's where anything, your Google search is literally just like your thoughts. If somebody wanted to read your mind, just go look at what you've been googling and looking at on the internet right and like that woman said uh celia blais she says when she joined those suicide forums when she was in a dark place she found some people who were helpful and kind and then she found others trying to push people so it's like he's not the only person out there doing

this and i feel like instead of it going to, oh, this is word technicalities, this is, you know, semantics, he didn't actually do this, we should move backwards almost. I feel like there should have been, this should have been an opportunity to amend the law fit for purpose for the world that people now live in. And that's what they do. Because Melchett Dinkle was far from home free. He was charged again for assisting in the suicide of Mark Drybra and attempting to assist in the suicide of Nadia Kajugi on the 15th of October 2014 under the new legislation with the words encourages and advises removed. He was found guilty and sentenced by Judge Thomas Newville who gave him three years in prison. But the sentence was suspended as long as Melchert Dinkle abided by the terms of his probation for 10 years. During

the sentencing, Melchett Dinkle stated, I'm sorry for my actions and what I've done. I have repented. Bollocks. Has he repented? Terry Watkins intended to appeal the sentencing again, but we couldn't find anything to suggest that this happened. It doesn't mean it hasn't necessarily, it just hasn't happened yet. So William Melchett Dinkle has been allowed to continue with his life and although he claims to have encouraged five suicides, there may be many more. You might remember the very recent case of Michelle Carter, the woman who was convicted of involuntary manslaughter in Massachusetts after she encouraged her boyfriend Conrad Roy to kill himself. She was sentenced to 15 months,

and her attorneys appealed her conviction on the same free speech argument that Terry Watkins made. That appeal application was made in July of this year, 2018, and Carter's attorneys stated, if this court affirms, Massachusetts would be the only state to uphold an involuntary manslaughter conviction where the absent defendant, with words alone, encouraged another person to commit suicide.

Which, if we're talking about involuntary manslaughter, may be true, but not if we're talking about assisted suicide. The law is constantly evolving to contend with modern situations and sadly in the case of William Melchett Dinkle, it didn't evolve quickly enough. You can talk about, like I said, the semantics of this. Were they there? Did they really do this? Is it free speech? You can say what you want and shouldn't have to be held responsible to the actions that somebody else takes based on what you said. But like, where is the safeguarding for these vulnerable people?

Like, you just go around saying whatever you want to people and then not be responsible for if they kill themselves. You just need a shit-hot lawyer by the sounds of it. I don't know how to, I mean, obviously not because I'm not a Supreme Court judge, but how do you safeguard the internet? How do you safeguard what people are saying to other people? You can't be done. So that's that. That's William Melchett Dinkle. Merry Christmas.

Merry Christmas, everyone. But no, I think it's important what you said at the start, that this time of year can be a really lonely time for people. And as much as, yeah, it's a great time for you guys and we hope that it is winter's hard so make sure all of your people feel loved this Christmas and we're also going to take a little break for Christmas so just one week oh yeah I forgot the week of Christmas isn't it we're not gonna yeah just gonna take a bit of a break you're going home for your fams I'm going to India to see my grandparents which would be nice.

And whatever you guys are doing, we hope you have a bloody great Christmas and New Year. And we will, well no, bloody great Christmas because we'll be back by the New Year. We're back on the 3rd of Jan. Yeah, so that's after. Oh yeah, no. Oh, fucking hell. Whatever. I need a break.

I'm going to be posting some excellent dog content over the Christmas holidays. So follow us on social media at Red Handed The Pod. I will definitely post about my trip on Instagram stories. So follow us. If you would like to make a little festive present to us, you can definitely do so at www.redhanded. Redhanded. Oh my God. I need to leave. I also think you're the only person that still says www.

I don't think anyone says that anymore. I just enjoy saying it. www.patreon.com slash redhanded. And also people the other day were like, I can't find your Patreon page. And when I went on there, I couldn't find it. Even when you search redhanded. So just type the address into the address bar if you can't find it for whatever reason. I'm sure you include those W's.

www.triple W. The three W's. Dot com. Dot com. include those w's www.triple w the three w's dot com dot just www.com so thank you to these people who've taken themselves to www.com forward slash red-handed patreon.aol.com so thank you to Marnie Brady, Juliet Howe, Ellie Spencerly, Becky Decker, Janelle Antony, Sarah Cooper, Eloise Haynes and Liza Ryan. And also thank you to all of you who are coming to our live show in January and February because they are sold out. You're great.

See you then. Thank you all for this amazing year. It's been so... I can't think of a better word than amazing. My vocabulary is swiftly just falling apart. It's been a great year. It's been such a fucking great year. We love you. We love Red Handed. Love each other. See you in Jan. Bye. Bye.

Hi, I'm Lindsey Graham, the host of Wondery Show American Scandal. We bring to light some of the biggest controversies in U.S. history. Presidential lies, environmental disasters, corporate fraud. In our latest series, NASA embarks on an ambitious program to reinvent space exploration with the launch of its first reusable vehicle, the Space Shuttle. And in 1985, they announced they're sending teacher Krista McAuliffe into space aboard the Space Shuttle Challenger, along with six other astronauts. But less than two minutes after liftoff, the Challenger explodes. And in the tragedy's aftermath, investigators uncover a series of preventable failures by NASA

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I've taken people along with me into the shadows, uncovering the macabre tales that linger in the darkness, and inside some of the most haunted houses, hospitals, prisons, and more. Join me every week on my podcast, Haunted Canada, as we journey through terrifying and bone-chilling stories of the unexplained. Search for Haunted Canada on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you find your favorite podcasts.