RedHanded - Episode 79 - Incest, Murder, Suicide: Steven & Katie Pladl

Episode Date: January 24, 2019

To the outside world they looked like a normal couple, but they were anything but “normal”.  Steven Pladl was not only his wife’s lover, but also her biological father - and needless to say this story doesn't end with a happily ever after. In April 2018, less than a year after they were married Pladl shot and killed his daughter/wife Katie, their 7 month old son and Katie's adoptive father - Tony Fusco. Join the girls this week as they delve into the mysterious world of genetic sexual attraction and the tragedy it brought in this case. http://www.adopteeson.com/listen/s4e5jane https://www.thecut.com/2015/01/what-its-like-to-date-your-dad.html https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPjvqIXSdM4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbiN2itNNFc   See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to Red Handed early and ad-free. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. They say Hollywood is where dreams are made. A seductive city where many flock to get rich, be adored, and capture America's heart. But when the spotlight turns off, fame, fortune, and lives can disappear in an instant. Follow Hollywood and Crime, The Cotton Club Murder on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Saruti.

I'm Hannah. And welcome to Red Handed. And before we get going today, we've got a correction and an apology to give. And a thank you. And a huge thank you. It's complicated. Stay with us. First things first, Dan Harmon and his fiancée Cody Heller listen to this show that we record under our duvets in our bedrooms. Let that sink in for a sec.

And the lovely Dan shouted us out on his own podcast, Harmontown, a couple of weeks ago, and shared a fact which is my fault because I said it on the show and it's not true, it turns out. Horribly embarrassing and very sorry. We just wanted to believe. We wanted to believe. We wanted to believe. We wanted to believe that that lovely story about the, I feel like we should also say what it was, that we

were accidentally spreading this like etymological campaign of misinformation. One-off campaign of accidental misinformation. Yeah, come for the murder, not for the words. It was just, what was it? It was the etymology of the word posh. Yeah, the word posh coming from poor out starboard home for rich people to come out of the sun, which is a lovely story, but unfortunately a myth. Absolutely. It's got nothing to do with white folks who don't want to tan. So we wanted to believe, like we said, we were lied to. We don't know who we were lied to by. We then spread those lies. It was the BBC. We think it was the BBC. We're very sorry that we dragged you into it, Dan and Cody. Yeah. And the rest of you who may have gone on and spread that fake news misinformation as well. Did we accidentally weaponize misinformation?

We didn't weaponize it. Did we weaponize it? I don't know. No, nobody did anything dangerous with it. So yeah, it was a throwaway thing. We didn't know. Regardless, despite what we dragged Dan and Cody into, Dan has made us a ridiculously, incredibly, eye-wateringly generous offer that we have obviously enthusiastically said yes to and are super excited about. Yeah. So see you in March, Los Angeles, because that's where we're going what do we say we're speechless and we promise dan and cody that we will make it up to you when we are there to um absolve ourselves of our posh sins put the blame on us and we will try remember who to put the blame on from our end oh god i'm so glad i got that off my chest it's been keeping me up so there

we go that is done so that was corrections plus you. I also have one just one very quick announcement to make before we get on with today's episode. And do not worry, it is worth the wait today's episode. The other thing I want to say is if you're listening to this on the day of release, this week is the very first live show that we're going to be doing at the Vault Festival. We are terrified and excited in equal measure. It swings back and forth for me. Yeah. And what I want to say is people are looking for tickets. So basically, if it's like Wednesday, Thursday, you can't come anymore, tweet at us, Instagram, Facebook, we'll help you find those tickets a good home. Yeah, exactly. We want to be performing to a room full of people who would like us to

succeed. That's how I'm imagining it's going to be. Just because people keep messaging us and we're like, we don't have any more tickets. So if you do let us know, we'll point people in the right direction. Right. Should we get on with it? Parish notices over. Lovely. Now on with today's story. It's going to be an interesting one, I think. If you've read the copy, you already know why you're here. So prepare yourself. Welcome. Strap yourselves in. Because today we are delving into the truly shocking story of a young woman named Katie Fusco. You guys may already have heard of this case as it only happened last year in 2018. And it was all over the news for very obvious reasons. Because when Katie was 20 years old, she got married to her 45-year-old biological father, Stephen Pladel.

And the two went on to have a baby that they named Bennett. However, a few months after baby Bennett was born, Katie decided to leave her husband slash birth dad, but Stephen wasn't having any of it. And in April 2018, he killed Katie, their baby, and Katie's adoptive father, Tony Fusco, before turning the gun on himself. And like we said at the start, it's a dark one today and it's also a case that's going to drag us into some pretty uncomfortable places. But as ever, we need to start at the beginning to truly understand the circumstances that led to these brutal murders. In 1995, Stephen Pladel was 20 when he met a 15-year-old named Alyssa on the

internet. That's early to be meeting people on the internet, 95. Hmm. She's well ahead. Yeah, ahead of the curve, played all. More so Alyssa, she's 15. What's she doing on the internet in 1995? The two started dating in real life and soon Alyssa became pregnant and gave birth to a daughter they named Denise. Being young and poor and unable to cope with the demands of raising a baby, when baby Denise was eight months, they put her up for adoption.

In recent interviews, Alyssa said, It was so hard to give her up, but I had to, because I wanted her to live and be happy. And for the most part, Alyssa got her wish for her daughter. Denise was quickly adopted by Tony and Kelly Fusco, who renamed her Katie, and raised her with their biological daughter in Dover, which is about 80 miles north of New York City. And by all accounts, Katie had a really normal life. She was an ambitious, aspiring artist,

and in high school, she was known for drawing amazing comic strips. When she was a senior, she was even praised for creating a powerful art portfolio depicting the struggles faced by women throughout American history. It's safe to say that Katie was going places and she was totally committed. Even at such a young age, she already knew exactly what she wanted to do. She planned to attend college to study art and then pursue a career in digital advertising. Bloody hell, at like 18, I had no idea. She's like, I'm going to go pursue a career in digital advertising. I'm still not 100% sure what digital advertising is at my big age of 28.

It's okay. It's too late. We don't need to know anymore. Too late for me to go into digital advertising. I've missed the boat. And in a blog post while she was still at school, Katie wrote, quote, a pen and something to draw on became a safe place for me. Ink became my weapon against rules and regulations. To be short, for me, a life without art is no life at all. It appears that Katie always knew that she was adopted, but it was when she turned 18 in January 2016 of events that would end in her death. It appears that Katie always knew that she was adopted, but it was when she turned 18 in January 2016 that she decided to track down her birth parents.

Katie found her parents through social media, and she messaged her birth mum, Alyssa, with a short and nervous message. It said, don't know if you're okay with this or not, but I thought I'd give it a shot. Hi. Alyssa said that at first she thought it was just spam or a joke. So then Katie sent her another message with links to results from a genealogy website. And Elissa realised that it was true. Elissa, Katie's birth mum, had spent the last 18 years dealing with feelings of loss and regret over giving up her baby girl for adoption. So she was delighted that she had found her again. And Elissa had actually stayed with Katie's birth dad, Stephen Playdor.

The two had married in 2006 and even gone on to have two more daughters who were aged 8 and 12 when Katie reached out. The Playdors were living in Henrico County, Virginia, which is over 400 miles away from Katie in Dover, New York. So after connecting on social media, Alyssa, Stephen and Katie decided to meet in the summer of 2016. And once Katie met her birth parents, it felt to her like a dream. She was completely delighted.

But soon after this reunion, things with her adoptive family began to break down. And to everyone's shock, instead of going on to college in August 2016 as she'd planned, Katie left her family home in Dover and moved in with the Playdills in Virginia. So Tony and Kelly Fusco, Katie's adoptive parents, understandably were super apprehensive about the whole thing. I'm sure they were also completely heartbroken. Imagine, like, you've adopted this baby girl, you've raised her, she's 18 years old. Of course course she always

knew she was adopted so you would always know in the back of your mind that the possibility would exist that she would go looking for her birth parents but then when that happens and then you know things break down with your relationship she then moves in with them like oh my god i can't believe how difficult that must be and so quick it happens within a matter of months this happens wow but i guess that they must have thought thought Katie was old enough to make her own decisions. And I'm sure they wanted to support her because what else could they do at that point? She's 18. She wants to get to know her birth family.

And surely, I'm sure, Kelly and Tony would have felt that if they stood in her way, they would just push her away. So all they can do is say that they're okay with it. But the thing is, what Katie didn't know yet was that all was not well in the Pladel home. Stephen and Alyssa had already decided to separate and were sleeping in separate bedrooms. Alyssa Pladel says that she had suffered emotional and verbal abuse by her husband for years and now recalls the years that she spent living with Stephen as living in a house of horrors. Alyssa said that Stephen was extremely abusive and unstable and she said that she only stayed with him because he'd threatened that if she ever left him he'd blow his brains out with a

gun and figure out a way to record it and make sure that the video got to her. That's a very specific threat. Alyssa also said that Playdell's temper and volatile behaviour was actually the key reason she had to put Katie up for adoption. In recent interviews, she described how Stephen would do horrifying things like brutally pinch baby Katie until her body was left black and blue. Alyssa even talks about incidents during which Stephen would stuff Katie in a cooler to drown out her crying. And he would hold Elissa back from freeing the terrified infant until she was on the verge of suffocating.

In an article we read, Elissa said that she was just 17, frightened, alone and estranged from her family. She didn't know what to do. So she decided the only way to ensure Katie's safety was to get her as far away as possible from Stephen Playdoh. And given what transpired after the reunion, Alyssa is heartbroken that ultimately, in 2018, Stephen was just finishing off what he started 20 years ago. After they put Katie up for adoption, Alyssa felt, for a little while at least, that Stephen was getting better, because apparently he didn't treat the other two children they had together like he had treated Katie, but he was still violent and angry,

temperamental and unpredictable. So finally, after years in an unhappy marriage, just as Katie was coming back into her life, Alyssa was reaching her breaking point. And it's important to note at this point that Alyssa makes it clear in interviews that Stephen Playdell never sexually interfered with any of their daughters. He was an angry man and living with him was like walking around on eggshells. But Alyssa is clear as far as she knew, and this

doesn't seem contested by anyone, there was never any sexual abuse. So back to Katie. She's 18, she's found her birth parents, They meet, they hit it off, and she moves in with them. Now, despite Alyssa and Stephen being on the verge of a divorce, they are thrilled to have their eldest daughter back in their lives. But with Alyssa working full time, Katie ended up spending almost all of her time with Stephen, who at the time was unemployed. Can you imagine? I like get it. They are birth parents, but this is such a move. She moves, was it 400, more than 400 miles away from everyone she's ever known to a totally different state, living ultimately with strangers. It sort of makes you think like not everything can

have been hunky dory back in New York, I don't think. I mean, obviously, I know that from what we've read, it all seems fine. There's just something at the back of my mind that's like, I just don't think even if you are 18, I'm not sure that you would make that move if everything was fine. I don't know. It's really difficult. And I think and we go on to discuss this, that sometimes, especially when you reunite with birth parents, that people can just feel this overwhelming, like just a flood of emotion. And being 18, maybe Katie just got swept up on it. She thinks, yep, this is my family. I finally like can connect with these people. I need to live there. I need to find out what this is about. Everything else can wait. But yeah, she's completely isolated. She doesn't know anyone else in this area. Alyssa is always at work. So

she spends all of her time with Stephen. And I guess perhaps during this time she was living there, the topic of why did you put me up for adoption must have come up. And Alyssa admits that she told Katie that her father had been physically abusive towards her as a baby and that that had been the reason for the adoption. But according to Alyssa, when she told Katie this, it didn't appear to really concern her very much. She just seemed fine with it. And in fact, Stephen and Katie started to grow closer and closer. After Katie moved in with them, Alyssa even noticed that Stephen's behavior started to change. He began wearing skinny jeans and form-fitting shirts.

He shaved his beard and grew his hair out. That's when you know when your man starts wearing skinny jeans. And form-fitting t-shirts. Yeah, that's like... Walk out that door. He's seeing someone else. It's like Chris Watts. Yes, yeah, exactly.

Exactly that. And about six weeks after Katie moved in, Stephen Pladle slept on the floor in her room one night. Alyssa said that this immediately concerned her. Yeah, I should fucking think so. Especially when it quickly became the norm. After a couple of nights of this strange sleeping arrangement, Alyssa confronted Stephen. But he just said that it was none of her business and stormed out of the house with Katie. By November

2016, it had all become too much for Alyssa and she moved out, taking their other two daughters with her. Although her and Stephen would go on to share custody of the girls. And it's important to note here that Alyssa says at this point she didn't know anything was going on between Stephen and Katie. It's just sleeping on the floor as far as she's concerned, but that is still pretty concerning. But Katie and Stephen had already started a sexual relationship. And I believe Alyssa when she says she didn't know at this point because when she did find out, her reaction was pretty justifiably intense.

It wasn't until May 2017, so after another six months, before Alyssa learned the truth. And the way she found out is pretty depressing. Because Stephen and Alyssa had shared custody of their two younger daughters, the girls would go and stay with their father every other weekend. And after one such visit, Stephen called Alyssa to tell her that their 12-year-old was misbehaving during her time with him. And I thought this was kind of strange.

In response to him feeling like his 12-year-old is misbehaving, he takes her diary and gives it to Alyssa. Yeah, that is weird. Weird. So Alyssa read the diary, which is, you know, not a cool thing to do, I'm going to say. No, never read someone's diary. That should be illegal. Never read your child's diary. Please, for the love of God, never read your child's diary.

You're not going to find anything you want to see. It's like reading your boyfriend's text. Just don't do it. There's going to be nothing in there that you want to see. Absolutely not. Though I would say if you are worried about reading your boyfriend's text to see something you don't like, probably break up with him. I want to be able to read my boyfriend's text and be totally cool with that. But I also don't want to have to want to read them. You don't want to have to want to read his text, I think is what you're getting at there.

But I want to not feel like I'll be sad if I do read them. So yeah, don't read your kids diaries though. That's just fucking lame. But she does. And I guess she says that she wanted to see how her daughter was handling the separation. And if that was the reason for her sort of misbehavior, that's not the reason for her misbehavior. Because what she read in that diary was the last thing that she could have expected. The little girl had written, quote, Katie is pregnant. Dad says they feel like couples. Did they get a little too drunk that night?

Question mark. My dad is a slut. He's Satan. He's fucking Satan. This is a 12-year-old girl. Remember that? I definitely was saying fuck when I was 12. Left, right and centre.

All the time. Definitely. And she carries on. He'll go to hell. But he won't be the one getting tortured. He'll be the one torturing people. Wait one second. If he's Satan and Katie is a human, then the baby will be half demon.

What the fuck? That is so sinister. She's got quite an imagination. She'd be a writer. Yeah, I know. This 12-year-old sibling of Katie's, whose name we don't know, so I just have to call her the 12-year-old again and again. She also wrote that she and her sister, the 8-year-old,

had been told by their father, Stephen Playdell, to stop calling Katie their sister and instead refer to Katie as their stepmother. Because that's not going to fuck anyone up, is it? Oh, my God. Unsur's not going to fuck anyone up, is it? Oh my God. Unsurprisingly, when Alyssa read this, her reaction was one of utter horror. And I can't believe for one instant, if Stephen is just slinging all of that stuff around the house

and saying it in front of his daughters. Yeah, like telling them to call their sister their step-um. Yeah, and then he literally gives the diary to Elissa. He knew what was written in there, I think. 100%. There's no way. He had to. No way he couldn't have read that diary.

No way he wouldn't have read that diary. He read it. He knew what was in there. And he was like, oh, this is going to be easier than me telling Elissa I'm fucking our daughter. I'll let her find out for herself in this really weird convoluted plan I've conducted it's true because I think he's totally serious about his relationship with Katie he's not like let's keep this undercover he's like let's just let everyone find out about it so that we can just be together yeah but I just think he didn't want to tell Alyssa so he finds a way to make her

find out and that's what Alyssa thinks as well. She says that she believes Stephen wanted her to find out about him and Katie through the diary because he was too cowardly to tell her himself. I believe her. I think I'm on her side too. After reading the diary, Alyssa became hysterical and called Stephen to confront him. But he just told her, quote, I thought you knew we're in love. Alyssa absolutely lost it. She just screamed at Stephen, feeling like she was going to throw up. But he stayed calm, telling her that they were happy and in love. And even though Katie's adoptive family had been unhappy at first, they had since come to accept it and she would have to do the same.

Soon after Alyssa found out, Stephen and Katie decided they needed a fresh start to start their life together, so they moved 150 miles away to Nightdale, North Carolina. And this is the point during the research where we fell down a big rabbit hole into all the different types of incest law that exist in the States. We know how to have a great time. Sunday afternoon good times in the incest laws, in the incest law that exist in the States. We know how to have a great time. Sunday afternoon good times in the incest laws, in the incest law library. It is so complicated. Some people go for brunch on Sundays, you know. Some people go outside. We're just locked under the duvet. Exactly. Some people go outside to a bottomless brunch. I walked past one the other day, you know.

Did you stand with your hand on the window? With a book of incest law in the other hand. Just crying. Just a single tear, steaming up the window with your crimey breath. Oh dear, dear. But yes, it is, I don't know if interesting is the right word. It's a thing that exists that you can read about. Because the thing is, yes, incest is illegal in nearly every state in the US, but there are varying degrees of severity, legally speaking. In Virginia, for example, incest between consenting adults is deemed as a class one misdemeanor and is punishable by a maximum of 12 months in prison and or a maximum fine of $2,500. In North Carolina, where they moved to, it would be deemed a class F felony punishable by between 10 months to 41

months in prison. So it's better. They're better off in North Carolina. You could just get 10 months, but you could also get 41 months. Yeah. No fine though, which is nice. No fine. But it is kind of hedging your bets because in Virginia, it's a maximum of 12 months. So you better hope. That's true. It is a bit of a toss up actually when you look at it like that. To be clear, when we're talking about incest laws like this, we are talking about adult incest. We are not talking about child abuse because the laws surrounding child abuse, like child sexual abuse by a family member is treated very, very differently. For example, in North Carolina, where like I said, the adult incest laws punishable by like child sexual abuse by a family member is treated very very differently for example in

North Carolina where like I said the adult incest law is punishable by between 10 to 41 months in North Carolina the minimum sentence for child sexual abuse incest of that kind is a minimum jail term of 25 years there is a big difference these things are completely separate what we're talking about and the thing is that I thought was quite interesting with this because obviously I couldn't stop myself and I read all of the other different types of incest law that exist in all the other different types of states, which I think probably Katie and Stephen may have wanted to have a quick look at, because there are states that they would have definitely been much better off in, which is why I didn't understand why they moved to North Carolina. Because did you know, fun facts, incest is not illegal in

Rhode Island. But incestuous marriage is illegal there. So shagging, fine, putting a ring on it, not fine. Exactly. Exactly. You have to be a non-monogamous incestuous couple there. You can't get married, but you can bang. Great. Good job. But if you do want to get married, whether it counts or not, you might think about moving to New Jersey because New Jersey would have been an even better choice for them because their adult incest is not illegal and nor is incestuous marriage, but it is void. So you get married, but it doesn't count, but you won't get arrested. No tax breaks. No tax breaks. Exactly. That's the only point of getting married. Yeah. If you want to do this and just be really worried about your tax base you just aren't going to get those not even in new jersey by the sounds of it so even if their marriage would have been void at least if they'd have moved to new jersey they could have done all of that and not been arrested for it because we know that they were planning on getting married because stephen told alissa so Imagine fucking telling your ex-wife that you are going to marry your daughter. Her daughter.

I physically can't. I'm incapable of imagining that. Once Stephen told Alyssa this on the phone, obviously she called the police. And on July 20th, 2017, just two months after his divorce from Alyssa was finalised, and amid the incest police investigation, Stephen Pladel married Katie in a lakeside ceremony in Parkton, Maryland. A big incest police investigation going on in the background of your nuptials isn't the most... It's not ideal, is it? It's not ideal.

I suppose if they're in Maryland, they're probably just trying to put it out of their mind. I don't know. I mean, maybe, because the incest laws in maryland are something to something to think about for sure and they were able to get around the maryland incest laws on marriage because they lied on their marriage application and said that they weren't related and according to the digging around that we've done into incest laws in maryland it only seems illegal right okay hold on to your guys, because this is fucking nuts. So the incest law in Maryland is this. It seems like it's only illegal to have vaginal intercourse in an incestuous fashion. So marriage and anal, totally fine. Good job, Maryland. You're really leading the pack on that one. I checked this on multiple websites. I checked this in multiple

places. And as far as I could see, it's only specifically addressed the idea of vaginal intercourse being illegal. Yikes. When it comes to everything else is fine. This is the thing. It's weird because they don't mention marriage. But then they also say that they got illegally married in Maryland because they lied that they weren't related. Surely your marriage isn't illegal because you like committed some fraud to do it. Surely it's illegal because they were related. I don't know. I think it would invalidate your marriage though if you lied on your license application. Yeah. So as far as I can tell, I can't tell if it's illegal to get married if you are related and you're both adults in Maryland. But what I do know without a doubt is that if you are two consenting related adults

in Maryland, it looks like you can do everything else apart from have vaginal intercourse. Well, now we know, guys. The more you know. The more you know. The more you bone. The more you read into incest laws, the more disturbed you will become. Probably the less you will ever bone again. And of course, there are photos of this wedding in maryland there are wedding photos

katie posted an image on social media of her and stephen kissing and the picture was tagged quote katie and stephen july 20th with the caption nothing fancy, just love. Hashtag just marriage, hashtag simple wedding and hashtag pregnancy. Because yes, in the wedding photos that Katie posted, she looks super pregnant. And something you may all find shocking, well, more shocking, is that Katie's adoptive parents, Tony and Fusco are at the wedding and they posed for a photo on the wedding day along with Stephen, Katie and Stephen's 72 year old mother Grace. So Katie's biological paternal grandmother and it is just one picture it's a single shot one moment but Stephen's mum is smiling. I can't't handle this I just feel like this is it's

a lot I will share that photo Katie shared it on her social media she obviously was proud of it at the time like we'll share it you can see like it's such a deeply troubling picture to look at when you understand what's no what's happening yeah who those people are in that. Grace Stephen's mum is Katie's biological grandmother and now also her mother-in-law. Oh my god, I'm trying so hard to remain objective. I know. We are going to do our best to stay objective and we are going to talk in more depth about all of this. Just hold on for one second. Yeah, I'll try and get there. Looking at the same picture, Tony and Kelly, Katie's adoptive parents, look uncomfortable, fine, but they are there. And I think this has to be put down to them thinking that there was no other way that they could stay in touch with her and decided

it was best to support Katie rather than to push her away. That is strong. Obviously, I'm not adopted. I've never had to be reunited with my birth parents. So I don't know. I have no context for what this situation is like. I don't know what it's like to feel those feelings. But that, I don't know. If your daughter decided to marry their biological dad, how do you maintain a relationship with that person?

I don't know. I don't know. But I suppose the bottom line is they love her and they want her to be happy and they want to stay in her life. So maybe that's it. They're incredibly understanding and supportive throughout this whole thing. But as you can probably tell that we are on the edge of doing so, I'm sure everyone listening, you're all probably freaking out a little bit, right?

Katie at this point is 20. She's heavily pregnant with her father's baby and they're getting married. It turns your stomach, right? The idea of incest. How could it not? That's because Hannah, me, probably all of you guys listening, most of you guys listening, all have something called the Westermark effect. And Katie didn't have this.

At least not with her biological father. Reverse sexual imprinting, or the Westermark effect, named after Finnish anthropologist Edvard Westermark, is a psychological phenomena through which people who live in close domestic proximity during the first few years of their lives become desensitized to sexual attraction. It's theorized that the Westermark effect serves to suppress inbreeding in humans. So essentially, it's the reason that most people don't fancy their siblings, their parents or other family members. So it doesn't matter if you grow up around your biological family or around an adoptive family, whoever

you grow up around, you are desensitized to them as potential sexual partners. So Katie would have been totally disgusted at the thought of sleeping with Tony Fusco, for example, but not feel the same way about Stephen Pladel, just because he's her biological father. And this brings us on to an interesting part of this story, the phenomena of GSA or genetic sexual attraction. Now, before we talk about this, it's a really difficult topic. And Hannah and I have listened to, watched, read everything that we could get our hands on. But we are by no means experts. Everything we've read, listened to, watched to in the space of a week doesn't make us experts.

We've just tried to come at this from as objective a perspective as we possibly can. First of all, we need to understand that GSA and incestuous sexual child abuse are not the same thing. Genetic sexual attraction is when a strong sexual attraction develops between close blood relatives who meet for the first time as adults. The term GSA was first coined in the US in the late 1980s by a lady named Barbara Gognon. She was the founder of a support group called Truth Seekers in Adoption, and she herself experienced GSA after meeting her adult son, who she'd put up for adoption as a baby. Her feelings, however, weren't reciprocated,

but the experience did make her explore why she had felt that way, and if other people did too. Now, there's no direct evidence for GSA, and it has been criticised as pseudoscience, but there are almost no scientific studies on it. So how can it be criticised as being fake when it hasn't been studied in any real amount of detail. It kind of seems like those claims aren't really founded on anything. It's just people being like, that's ridiculous. How can that possibly be true? But not actually spending any time on figuring out why it may not be true. And I think it's like a combination of people, A, not wanting to come forward and share their experiences in like an academic sense to have it sort of poked around

and explored potentially. And also, let's just have a look at occurrence rates. There have been a number of such family romances that have emerged over the last decade and their stories and explanations all feel very similar. So here's the theory. The theory is that when people don't bond in early life, so specifically between birth and the age of six, and then meet as adults, GSA can occur. Evidence from the Post Adoption Centre and University College London suggests that GSA, to some degree, occurs in 50% of reunion cases. That's staggering. Isn't it? And they say it's like to varying degrees, and it's not always reciprocated by the other person. So in that kind of feeling, if it's just one person, I guess they just deal with

this immensely confusing feeling. The other person doesn't feel that way. And then they just sort of, nothing comes of it. So it doesn't get splashed all over the tabloids. We don't find out about it because nothing happens. But then there are then the rare cases where both people feel the same way. And then it turns into this unstoppable relationship that they feel like they want to pursue. And that's the thing. I think that looking into this, the people who are with their brother or with their mom or whatever, they're having to live secret lives and they have to give up a lot to live like that. So they must really, really want to do it. And that's something that believe the people who are going through GSA genuinely are in love with each other. Like I believe that because the isolation, the taboo, the like, the feeling of shame and fear, all of that to suppress all of that,

want to overcome all of that and be with that person. And I'm not trying to romanticize it because, you know, I'll share my own opinions on this. But I do believe that these people have such strong feelings. Otherwise, they wouldn't be putting themselves through this. Now, why GSA occurs, as we said, is still not really understood because there just hasn't been any research really into it. I think from everything I've read, there seems to be one study out there on this, like one scientific study. One, when they're saying that up to 50% of reunion cases, you know, have some degree of GSA occur. Like, that's crazy to me. But there are some theories for what factors may contribute to GSA. And it's theorized that people commonly rank faces similar to their own as being more attractive and trustworthy than average.

So that whole idea that we're attracted to people who look a bit like us. I know so many people, I showed you the other day, I know at least five couples who very recently got married who've got the same face, like the exact same face. I'm obviously not going to share pictures of people I know with you lot but it's stunning. Everyone does though I bet everyone has those people that are couples that look really fucking similar like I have that but I also felt a bit conflicted by this because don't we also then have those studies that say that we're like most attracted to people who are most biologically diverse to us because of like their smell and things like that. I mean it's not something I know a huge amount about.

No. I don't think there's, I don't think it's something the scientific community knows a huge deal about. Apparently though, I think I've spoken about this on the show before. When you shake hands with someone, you'll touch your face afterwards and you won't realize you're doing it to get their smell. They did a study with like 50 people walking around in a room room just like walking around not doing anything and counted how many times they touched their face and then when they were shaking hands the face touching went up by like an

enormous percentage so next time you shake hands with someone check that's gonna say maybe that's why i'm still so horribly single because i never touch my face because otherwise my hands will go orange it's a little makeup check there for you guys yeah maybe i need to start touching my face because otherwise my hands will go orange. It's a little makeup joke there for you guys. Yeah, maybe I need to start touching my face more. Getting their mask. But no, I think when I say, you know, the scientific community doesn't know, I don't think anyone knows because I think there are too many factors that feed into our, like how we're attracted to people. I don't think it's as simple as saying we like people who look like us or people who smell really opposite to us because I don't like people who have the same face as me.

That's what you think. Pretty sure I'm not attracted to people who look like me. I'm attracted to think pretty much the opposite of what I look like. I like tall white guys. I'm glad you said it. I was going to say it. Oh, you say it. It's true.

Massive white men. So get this. The Ontario Liberals elected Bonnie Crombie as their new leader. Bonnie who? I just sent you her profile. Her first act as leader, asking donors for a million bucks for her salary. That's excessive. She's a big carbon tax supporter.

Oh, yeah. Check out her record as mayor. Oh, get out of here. She even increased taxes in this economy. Yeah, higher taxes, carbon taxes. She sounds expensive. Bonnie Crombie and the Ontario Liberals. They just don't get it.

That'll cost you. A message from the Ontario PC Party. I'm Jake Warren, and in our first season of Finding, I set out on a very personal quest to find the woman who saved my mum's life. You can listen to Finding Natasha right now exclusively on Wondery+. In season two, I found myself caught up in a new journey my mum's life. You can listen to Finding Natasha right now exclusively on Wondery Plus. In season two, I found myself caught up in a new journey to help someone I've never even met. But a couple of years ago, I came across a social media post by a person named Loti. It read in part,

Three years ago today that I attempted to jump off this bridge, but this wasn't my time to go. A gentleman named Andy saved my life. I still haven't found him. This is a story that I came across purely by chance, but it instantly moved me and it's taken me to a place where I've had to consider some deeper issues around mental health. This is season two of Finding, and this time, if all goes to plan, we'll be finding Andy. You can listen to Finding Andy and Finding Natasha exclusively and ad-free on Wondery Plus. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify. Harvard is the oldest and richest university in America. But when a social media-fueled fight over Harvard and its new president broke out last fall,

that was no protection. Claudine Gay is now gone. We've exposed the DEI regime, and there's much more to come. This is The Harvard Plan, a special series from the Boston Globe and WNYC's On the Media. To listen, subscribe to On the Media wherever you get your podcasts. Yeah, this is the thing. I just think there's too many things that feed into this. We don't really understand why this happens. But in the interest of trying to understand as much as we can, we have listened to lots and lots of stories of people who have gone through GSA.

And they all say that when they met their new relative, so like this person that they were estranged from that they'd never met, that they sort of bonded immediately over like overwhelming similarities and shared personality traits. They all said that in their adoptive families, they all felt like a little bit of an outsider. And then when they met this person that was biologically related to them, they were shocked by how similar they looked to them, how they had the same mannerisms, how they did this. And it was like an intense feeling overcame them. And many people in GSA relationships that we listen to describe it as exactly that, an incredibly intense feeling.

And they often refer to it as double love. So they mean that they love this person as family, but they also love them as a potential spouse. So I just don't think it's something that any of us with the Westermark effect can even begin to wrap our heads around. I just don't think it's something we can feel. Like if an alien came down tomorrow and didn't know what love was, how would you even describe that to them in a purely normal way that we would experience it? Yeah, no, too hard, can't do it. And there is an article that I'll post on the Facebook group

and it's written by an 18-year-old woman who met her dad after 12 years of estrangement. And it's called, What It's Like to Date Your Dad. And given the context of today's episode, you can rest assured that it's not a clickbait article about something like a woman who ended up with a man just like her dad.

No, no, no. She met her birth father at 18 and fell romantically in love with him. And they went on to date for two years. Now, since Katie is no longer here to give her experience of her relationship with her father, I think we thought the best thing we can do is consider the stories of other people in similar situations. Because when you listen to a lot of these stories the commonality is really obvious and use this in combination with what we do know about Katie. So the girl who wrote the article what it's like to date your dad is the

same age as Katie was when she first met her birth dad and this is a short excerpt from that article I met my dad for the first time in forever, but it was also like, he's so good looking. And then I was like, what the hell are you thinking? What's wrong with you? I saw him as my dad, but then also a part of me was like, I'm meeting this guy. Can she take a writing class? Dear God. I'm meeting this guy who I've been talking to over the internet and really connecting with, and I find him attractive. After I had stayed with him for about five days, I realised that I was sexually and romantically attracted to my dad.

One night we were play wrestling and he pinched my inner thigh and I got goosebumps. We stopped and said that we didn't know what was going on but admitted that we had strong feelings for each other. We discussed whether it was wrong and then we kissed and then we made out and then we made love for the first time. And that was when I lost my virginity. It's hard because we don't want to be like, oh, my God, this is so disgusting. I'm really fighting my like inner urges. I know. We're biologically hardwired to feel disgusted by that.

We're not being judgmental. It's a natural reaction to feel that way. And this is just one such article. There are so many stories out there. For example, there's this Guardian article and a Telegraph article, both of which cover multiple cases of GSA. And just go to Google right now, click on the news tab, and then type in genetic sexual attraction. So many articles, so many stories. This is not rare by the sounds of things. And I

also listened to two podcasts about this over the course of this week. My commutes to and from work this week have been, yeah, something. And I feel like also my face has been quite an interesting thing for people to watch on the train because it's difficult not to have a really visceral reaction to what you hear. And again, it's not being judgmental or like voyeuristic. It was because it was like, I just, it was something I just couldn't understand. I just couldn't begin to understand. Now, I will post the links to both of these podcasts in the episode description.

So if you want to listen to them, I would definitely recommend it. There's people in there talking really, really openly about their experiences with GSA, and they are firsthand primary accounts of this. And I found them really eye-opening because the two key things that all of the people in both of these podcasts and all of these articles kept saying made me question my own knee-jerk reaction to the idea of GSA or consensual adult incest. Because one, the first thing they say is, don't say it must be because I was abused or because I'm sick or messed up. And two, don't strip me of my autonomy as an adult to consent. I thought they were really interesting points because it is the natural reaction, isn't it? You feel like, oh, this poor person, they are so messed up and they need help or

they are being abused or manipulated and they can't really be into this. But all of the articles I've read, all of the things I've listened to, all of Katie's journals, her blogs, her social media seem to indicate that this was what she wanted. Yeah. And I think it's an interesting argument that when because obviously you know my initial reaction your initial reaction probably most of the people listening to this their initial reaction is is revulsion quite frankly but if we're talking about two consenting adults and when i first thought about that argument i was like yeah okay fine until they have a kid with webbed feet then it's not just two consenting adults anymore and

you made a really interesting point that if two people who were in a non-incestuous relationship that had genetic abnormalities that they would definitely be passing on no one would tell them not to have a kid and how is it different exactly think of how many things are so inheritable so many genetic congenital things that you could definitely pass on is a's a numerous list. Even if a woman decides to conceive a child after the age of like 45 or whatever, like every one of those things increases risks of abnormalities, birth defects, some sort of lifelong condition that that child would have to live with. Can you imagine living in a world where we told those people or we told anybody, oh, you've got this, you absolutely cannot procreate. No, it's eugenics.

We wouldn't stand for it. Exactly. And so the thing that these people say is, how can you put that on me? But then you have this whole issue of like, even if you go all the way down to plants, inbreeding between close family members is disastrous for like a gene pool. It's not a good idea. But I really had to try and think about this objectively and the whole idea of two consenting adults. How far do we think that the state should be allowed to go in controlling their love lives? And I don't know. It's difficult. And I think maybe it's different when it's like sibling, sibling. And maybe it's different when it's like parent-child. Because the thing with Katie and her dad in this case,

I just couldn't help shake the feeling that when it's a parent-child dynamic, how could there not be an uneven power balance? Even if Katie is consenting to this because she's 18, she's at the age of consent, she's an adult. He's significantly older than her. And he's her dad. I mean, that is like the definition of the person that has the most power over you. I don't buy in this particular circumstance that there wasn't an uneven power dynamic going on.

Absolutely. But it is hard. And this is why I said go listen to those podcasts because listening to those people and their anger at people constantly telling them, you can't be consenting to this. I understand why they're angry about that. And this is the thing, when you listen to those stories as well, I personally went from being like, oh, this is gross. And I'm going to listen to this and be like, what the fuck, you're so messed up. But after listening to those stories, I kind of had this moment where I was like, I don't really see how I can judge a situation that I'm biologically

hardwired not to understand. And the reason my mind went from like, yuck to shit was because of another thing that is really prevalent during all of these stories of GSA, that overwhelming feeling of loneliness, isolation, fear and shame that most people with GSA talked about. Hannah and I talked about this a lot before we started recording. We felt like us being like, oh my God, gross. It's just adding to that shame and isolation

and it's definitely not fucking helping anybody, is it? And the thing is, GSA is on the rise. The reasons are because of things like IVF, sperm donation, egg donation. More and more kids are being born to non-biological parents. All of the stuff on the internet, new laws, is becoming easier to track down your birth families. And before, people who wanted to find their birth families would have had to go through support groups where they would have had counselling. And now that's not the case.

Yeah, because it's basically before you had to go through those support groups because you didn't have the internet, you didn't have social media, you didn't have any way of tracking down your birth family. So you had to depend on these groups. And when you went to such a group, you had counselling alongside somebody helping you find them. Now, it's a lot easier for people to track down their birth families and they're doing it without professional help in a lot of cases. So basically, there's no support out there for people who are dealing with GSA and however we feel about it having no support during what would be undoubtedly the most terrifying experience of your life it's really sad. Because of the revulsion that's

aroused by incest and the stigma attached to anyone who admits to experiencing GSA let alone those who actually embark on sexual relationships with a parent or sibling, the condition remains totally obscured by myth, tainted by smutty porn, underreported by sufferers, and worst of all, virtually ignored by academics. And I read that if you went to a psychiatrist and talked about it, they have to report you. It's the same thing with pedophiles so you can't talk about it you have no space in no safe space in which to talk about it without getting the cops called on you absolutely and so when you're living under that kind of isolation why would anyone come forward to talk about this i mean imagine you're in a situation like katie and stephen played or were in and you've got married you've had this baby she goes to a counselor to talk about this they

will take that baby away from her immediately of Of course they will. So it's not helpful for the people going through this. And maybe you've never heard of GSA, maybe you have, but definitely every now and again, there is a story of GSA, intentionally or not, if that's what they call it or not, during this entire research that we did for this case between Stephen Pladel and Katie, I only found one article that talked about GSA, that even mentioned GSA. You know, there's these stories though, they're always splashed all over the papers because it's like, come on, we've talked about it before. It's like morbidity bingo. Incest, fucking clickbait. There was a story recently of that woman, Patricia Spann, and this is pretty nuts. I get why this was a headline grabber. She married her son

Jodie, then had their marriage annulled, and then married her daughter Misty. Yeah, I remember that. And both those kids, they'd been taken away from her. They grew up separately. They didn't grow up with her. She met them as adults. But still, like, as fucking crazy as all of this is, and as easier as it would be to just be like, oh my god, yuck. Instead of mocking these people, after a lot of thinking about this, isn't it just more important that we try to learn more about GSA and how we can prevent and treat it in the future? And that's, in my opinion, that's the thing. The importance of prevention is what I think is really important. Because there are people, and I listen to podcasts with these

people, there are people out there who are advocating for marriage equality with GSA and to decriminalize adult incest. So they're trying essentially to normalize GSA rather than trying to find a way to prevent this. I don't know. I kind of feel a little bit uncomfortable with that. Yeah. I mean, this is just my opinion. It doesn't matter what I think. I just feel like those people should be given help. It should be more out in the open. It should be talked about. They should definitely provide people seeking to find their birth families with more support. We should train counsellors to better identify and support people with GSA.

But I just don't feel like, because I just, I'm not convinced that such relationships can work. I just feel like like we talked about surely they must make you just super isolated even if you move to another state with your partner aren't you always going to feel like what if somebody finds out what if this comes out this huge secret hanging over you and you'd lose everyone else surely you would lose everyone else even my most open-minded friend they'd be like what the fuck if I told them that someone in my year at school married their cousin and we all went nuts this is what I mean and I think that the support that we should be talking about should be more geared towards helping people

deal with why they feel that way and understanding why they feel that way and being told that this isn't something freakish and shameful and horrible and you're not a monster and this is why you feel this way and this is how we can help you through counselling rather than that support being to tell people to pursue such relationships. Oh it's so hard I think oh yeah fine two consulting adults fine but if you're changing the law surely there has to be that's going to have to be the most perfectly written law to not give any loopholes for child abuse, basically, I think. But you have GSA, which is basically when people don't know each other as children and they meet as adults. And then you have this thing called, I'm going to not say this right, consanguinamori relationships. Oh, yeah, that lady was talking about that on that yeah on this other podcast so consanguine consanguine amore

consanguine amore jump in and help anytime hannah i'm really enjoying it sorry consanguine amore oh my god fuck off that type of sorry. Kansan Agueri. Oh my God. Fuck off. Kansan Winamori. There you go. There you go. You fucking bitch. Just watch me die on my ass for a while before you come in and say it. So that relationship, that type of relationship is when people do know each other throughout their childhood like a father. And the case that we listened to in this podcast was with a father and a daughter who had grown up together he'd raised her along with his wife she said then when she turned 19 she looked at her dad and thought fuck i'm in love with you and she's very clear i was never abused he never touched me

nothing ever happened until i was 19 i realized i was in love with him and then we he split up with my mom and we started a relationship is it bad that i don't believe that i know i just don't think that's true. I know. But this is the thing then again, though, that you say that GSA is something totally different because she must have had the Westermark effect. She must have. She grew up with him. But GSA people are saying this is completely different. I feel disgusted at the thought of sleeping with my adopted brothers and sisters or parents. Like that revulses me. But the idea of this, it feels like love.

I don't know. It's really, really complicated. And like we said, we are not experts in this. Please go read about this. Listen to it. There's so many documentaries as well. There's one called Incest, The Last Taboo. It's horrifying, but also...

But it's, you know, it's happening. We should talk about it. Yeah, it's happening. We should talk about it. Yeah, it's happening and you're right. And I think, like we mentioned, this is only going to rise 100%. The cases and occurrences of GSA is only going to rise because you have more and more IVF, you have more and more egg donors, sperm donors, things like this happening. And like we said, it's easier than ever to find people without any professional support. This isn't going away.

This isn't going anywhere. And while we've made the case for a better understanding of GSA and empathy rather than judgment for people going through it, it's also normal to be totally grossed out by it. And it is what it is. Whilst it seems undeniable that most cases of GSA don't end well, most do not end in murder-suicide like today's case does. This is because Stephen Pladel was a dangerous man. And if you strip away the fact that they were biologically father and daughter, this is your classic story of a man and of a family annihilator. But unlike Chris Watts, in this case, it's if I can't have you, no one is having you. Our little GSA sidetrack aside, know what it's so funny GSA is the

name of a drama school and that's Guilford School of Acting and I have not been able to get that out of my head the whole time we've recorded this so if you're listening Guilford you've got a new name hello Guilford you said that like the whole of Guilford was. If you're listening Guildford hello. This one's for you. So let's get back to Katie. On the 1st of September 2017 Katie gave birth to her and Stephen's son Bennett. Katie posted a picture of the baby boy on her Facebook page and friends responded with comments like oh my god he's so beautiful and she even posted pictures of Bennett and Stephen together like an image she shared on pictures of Bennett and Stephen together, like an image she shared on Instagram of Stephen feeding his son with the caption, first feeding, hashtag first solid food, hashtag baby, hashtag father and son.

But their domestic bliss wouldn't last long, as they were arrested on incest charges in January 2018. A judge ordered them not to contact each other and Stephen Playdell's mother was given custody of Bennett. Both Stephen and Katie were released on one million dollar bonds each and Stephen was court ordered to stay away from Katie. Who's got two million dollars? Who's releasing them? That's what I want to know. I don't really get that. Like they were both just like one million dollar bonds but they were both just released. Don't know. I wonder maybe if their like families have houses can they put that up as collateral? Oh, possibly.

I don't know. Maybe. We need to get bounty hunters on the phone to find out. So after she was released, Katie moved back in with her adoptive parents, Tony and Kelly Fusco. And I guess she started to try to settle back into a normal life. I think they tried to make it go back to before. Let's wipe the slate clean. And every Tuesday and Thursday, Tony, Kelly and Katie would travel to her adoptive

grandmother's house in Waterbury, Connecticut. And on April 12th, a Thursday, Katie and Tony Fusco left their Dover home for Waterbury right on schedule. But that day, in a minivan nearby, Stephen Plater was watching them. And as they drove off, he followed them. Minutes later, in nearby New Milford, witnesses reported someone opening fire. It was Stephen. He ambushed Tony's car and he shot Katie and Tony, both dead. Stephen Plader was later found dead of a self-inflicted gunshot wound back in Dover. And hours later, there was even more horror when the police discovered seven-month-old Bennett dead and alone in the couple's North Carolina home.

The police had been tipped off by Grace Pladel, Stephen's mum. Smiling Grace Pladel. And this 911 call that Grace Pladel makes to the police pretty much sums up the horror of this entire case. 3-9-1-1, Addison, the emergency. makes to the police pretty much sums up the horror of this entire case. And he's in the house. Okay, you said that he told you he killed his baby? I can't believe it. Okay, ma'am, listen to me. What's your name? What's your home address?

I'm not there. That's his house. Okay, what's his address? Tell me exactly what happened. He's not home. His wife broke up with him over the phone yesterday and he told me she's in new york and he told me he was on his way he called me last night said he's on his way he's going to bring the baby to her and then he was coming back. And he just... He killed his wife.

He killed her father. And I can't even believe this is happening. That is the story. Yeah, if you're still here. Of Stephen Pladle and Katie Fusco. The incest dad. And we'll see you at the weekend if you come into the show. Yeah, we will.

And we promise we won't make you talk about GSA. Unless you want to. Even if you want to. I think I've had enough I've definitely had enough I feel like my brain hurts after this I I'm done thanks very much for listening and I think this is going to be a conversation sparker I certainly hope so so if it has made you think don't yell at us we don't know what we're talking about we're like we just shared our opinions and the facts that we could find don't yell at us that it's super gross we know that but um you can come tell us what you do think on the social medias at red handed the pod we're on instagram twitter and on facebook and if you would like to go that one stage further and help support the show you can do that at patreon.com slash red handed and here are some people who

have done so this week bridgetget Connors, Melissa Stevens, Skara, Noreen Tay, Crystal Lopez-Berryman, Christine Barry, Martha D, Matthew Escobar, Becky Stone, Emily Blassingame,

Louise Cass, Amy... Oh, Amy, I'm so sorry. Cal-wee? How? Amy Cal... Yeah, I'm sorry, Amy. After that consanguine Mary thing, i'm not helping you you carry on

that's fair enough maury jane jensen kirby agatha agatha core honan lane allen shana nicole rain oh sorry you a messenger shauna nicole rains jessica rothberger thank you very much guys and we will see you next week. Bye. Bye. You don't believe in ghosts? I get it. Lots of people don't. I didn't either until I came face to face with them. Ever since that moment, hauntings, spirits, and the unexplained have consumed my entire life. I'm Nadine Bailey. I've been a ghost tour guide for the past 20 years. I've taken people along with me into the shadows, uncovering the macabre tales that linger in the darkness, and inside some of the most haunted houses, hospitals, prisons, and more.

Join me every week on my podcast, Haunted Canada, as we journey through terrifying and bone-chilling stories of the unexplained. Search for Haunted Canada on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you find your favorite podcasts. He was hip-hop's biggest mogul, the man who redefined fame, fortune, and the music industry. The first male rapper to be honored on the Hollywood Walk of Fame, Sean Diddy Combs. Diddy built an empire and lived a life most people only dream about.

Everybody know ain't no party like a Diddy party, so. Yeah, that's what's up. But just as quickly as his empire rose, it came crashing down. Today I'm announcing the unsealing of a three-count indictment, charging Sean Combs with racketeering conspiracy, sex trafficking, interstate transportation for prostitution. I was f***ed up. I hit rock bottom. But I made no excuses. I'm disgusted. I'm so sorry. Until you're wearing an orange jumpsuit, it's not real. Now it's real. From his meteoric rise to his shocking fall from grace, from law and crime, this is the rise and fall of Diddy. Listen to the rise and fall of Diddy exclusively with Wondery Plus.