RedHanded - Episode 89 - Shafilea Ahmed: The Price of "Honour"

Episode Date: April 11, 2019

In 2003 16 year old Shafilea Ahmed disappeared from her family home in Warrington, she was presumed missing but the truth was much more horrific. She’d been killed by her own parents because the “dishonour” she was bringing to her family was just too high a price to pay for her to live. Join the girls this week as the delve into the infuriating and heartbreaking world of “honour” based violence and murder. https://www.theguardian.com/uk/shafilea-ahmed?page=2 https://youtu.be/x2qbE17zDZc   See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to Red Handed early and ad-free. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. and lives can disappear in an instant. Follow Hollywood and Crime, The Cotton Club Murder on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi guys, just before we get on with the show today, we have a very quick favor to ask you. Hi, guys. Just before we get on with the show today, we have a very quick favour to ask you. You might remember around this time last year, a couple of nobodies made it into the top 20

of the Listener's Choice category for the British Podcast Awards. And it's that time of year again. If we get into the top 10 this year, we're going to give you an extra episode. And if we win, I don't know what I'm going to do, but something, something amazing. So please, please, please click the link in the episode description and give us your vote for the listeners choice category of the British Podcast Awards. Doesn't matter where you are in the world,

anyone can vote. You don't have to be British, but we are. Thank you so much. On with the show. I'm Saruti. I'm Hannah. And welcome to Red Handed. In September 2003, 17-year-old Shafilia Ahmed disappeared, seemingly from her family home in Warrington, northwest England. Shafilia was the eldest of five children, four girls and one boy, born to British Pakistani parents Iftikhar and Farzana Ahmed. She was a bright and ambitious girl who worked incredibly hard at school, had a part-time job, had a good group of friends,

and dreamt of one day becoming a barrister. To the outside world, Shafili would have seemed like the perfect daughter, but not to Iftikhar and Farzana. To them, Shafili was a serious problem. Today we're talking about an issue that is personally for me incredibly near to my heart, the idea of honour-based violence and murder. And I guess we could call it a cultural phenomenon that we see predominantly in South Asian and Middle Eastern families. And being myself of South Asian descent, I feel like

that's why I really connect with these stories when you hear about them. And we really need to wrap our heads around the importance of honour for some families from such backgrounds to truly understand this case. But before we get there, let's start as usual right at the beginning. Iftikhar Ahmed was born in Pakistan, but moved to Bradford in the UK when he was just four. So essentially, he grew up completely in the UK and by all accounts, he was incredibly westernised. He was popular at school and even had the quintessentially British nickname, Baza.

How the fuck they got from Ipficard to Baza, I will never know. How? I just imagine these kids in Bradford being like, if, if, Baza. Yeah, just Baza. Just call you Baza. Did you ever have nicknames at school? No, not really.

Just Saruti or Saru. That's it. Have you? Did you? Loads. Really horrible ones. Well, Mags is the one that sort of has stuck around the longest. Oh, that's cute.

Yeah, I don't mind Mags very much. I do mind my nickname at university, was shit hannah oh why because there were two hannas and so my air quotes friend before i met my friend hugo before we knew each other he spread a rumor that i took heroin at a party and shat myself and which is not true neither of those things are true but from that day forth i was shit hannah for my entire university career. That's a very hurtful rumor. Yeah, he's a bastard, isn't he? You're still friends with this guy?

Yeah, yeah. I went to see him in Geneva a few months ago. Oh, very forgiving. Hannah Blankface. I had that at school. The teacher told me that I had a completely emotionless expression. Hannah Blankface. Oh my God, you should write like a series of children's books. Hannah Blankface. Shit books. Hannah Blankface. Shit Hannah.

Hannah Blankface. Yeah. Anyway. I'll make Bazaar. Yeah, I've forgotten about Bazaar. I've got sidetracked by my own... Traumas. Nicknamed trauma.

So Bazaar went to nightclubs, he partied, he drank. He was a happy, outgoing, fun-loving young guy. In 1980, he went to Copenhagen where he met a young Danish woman named Vivi Lone Anderson. A couple of years later, in June 1982, Vivi and Iftikhar got married. And the following year, Vivi had their baby, a boy they named Tony, so very Western name. The family seemed happy. And to this day, Vivi claims that while he was with her, Iftikhar was a kind and loving husband and father who never raised a hand towards her or their son. They lived together in Denmark until 1986 when Iftikhar received word from Pakistan that his grandmother was dying. And this would be the beginning of the end for Vivi and Iftikhar.

Iftikhar left for Pakistan alone. And when he arrived, his dying grandmother reminded him that he had been betrothed to his cousin Farzana when he was a boy. They did not give a shit that he was already married. To his family, his marriage to Vivi didn't count. Did you know that Church of England marriages don't count in the Catholic Church? Really? No, I did not. Maybe they've changed their minds about this now. But it used to be that you couldn't get married in a Catholic Church if you were divorced. But if you were divorced in the Church of England, doesn't count, jobs are good. Yeah, I find this weird that how much the family are just like, whatever, because Vivian Iftikhar actually had an Islamic wedding in Copenhagen. And they also had like a

civil marriage as well. So it was like fully legit. I think there's quite a big Muslim community in Denmark. Oh, yeah. I think it was just to them. They were like, we don't care. Don't tell us about it. We don't care.

You have to marry Farzana because that's what was always meant to happen. And the concept of arranged marriages is just very common, isn't it? Oh, absolutely. In Pakistan like this, it wouldn't be an alien. I knew a couple of girls at uni whose parents had arranged marriages. They were Tamil, actually. One of the girls was saying that she would like fully consider it because her parents were really happy.

Wow. No, I would never even consider it. No, my parents had an arranged marriage, but it was... Same. Yeah, their dads. So my grandparents knew each other. There's a big difference between arranged marriages and forced marriages. That's something to be very, very clear about. In my mum also turned down lots

and lots of proposals. And then it was apparently when they met each other, they were like, yeah, I'll marry that person. And then they got married. Wow. That's so totally alien to anything I've ever experienced. Absolutely. It's like that show Married at First Sight. You just meet and then it's like the families match you based on like, oh, you know, we're from like a similar background. This is the education levels. This is the job earning potentials, et cetera, et cetera. They'll also look at horoscopes. They're big into that. And then they'll be like, yeah, we think our kids should get married. But the difference between an arranged and a forced is that the couple getting married have total choice and they have the total veto right to say no.

And my parents chose to get married to each other, even though they didn't know each other. But yeah, they've been married for 30 years. That's nuts. No, it is nuts. My mom was like, I wouldn't even buy you a top, let alone suggest someone for you to marry. Do what you want to do. But no, I just think this idea, especially in Asian and Middle Eastern communities, the idea of arranging marriages for your children is absolutely not uncommon, even to this day. But what's happening here is much more of a forced marriage because Iftikhar doesn't want to marry her.

And it didn't really matter that he didn't want to marry her. It didn't even matter that he's already married because this is all a matter of honour. His family freaked out. If he didn't marry Farzana, she would be damaged goods and the family would be humiliated. She would always be the one that was supposed to marry him. She would be second best. And there would always be this thing within the family and the community of, well, why did he say no?

Why didn't he marry her? What's wrong with her? If they were always meant to get married and then he comes back and says he doesn't want to marry her, there's got to be something wrong with her. And sensing his reluctance, Farzana threatened Iftikhar. She told him, if you don't marry me, I will kill myself. And Farzana's threats would have been coupled with no doubt intense emotional blackmail. This was what was expected of him. And there was no way that Iftikhar was going to get out of this.

So the wedding was arranged for two weeks time and the pair married. After the wedding, Iftikhar took Farzana back to the UK with him and she was already pregnant with his child. Now a bigamist, I don't think Iftikhar really had a plan. He also can't have hated her that much. She's already pregnant by the time they go home. Don't. Or maybe he's just got one super sperm. Didn't have to get out of him and into her. That's true. He just sent it in the post. Off you go.

That's just very much part of the culture. If a couple get married and then they don't have children straight away or she doesn't get pregnant straight away, it'll be, oh, what's wrong with them? What's wrong with her maybe like something's wrong with her like it's just so typical everything about this luckily enough I've grown up in a family where I haven't experienced this but I'm still part of that community everything in here I have experienced or witnessed at some point or another this is not out of the ordinary the bigamy is definitely but you know the family didn't give a shit about that and Iftika like I said I don't think he really had a plan. At this point, Vivi is still living in Denmark and he brings Vizana to the UK. Now, obviously he didn't tell Vivi any of this.

How do you tell her? Oh yeah, I went to Pakistan. I came back and I've got another pregnant wife now. Sorry, what's for dinner? I know. How's Tony doing? I don't really know why he does this. I guess for ease sake, he moves Vivi and Tony to the UK from Denmark. So he moves in with Vivi and leaves Fasana with a relative that they have in the UK. How is he explaining this to her? That's what I want to know. I want to know how he approached that situation of, so we're going to move to the UK for absolutely no reason at all. Let's just uproot

our lives he was brought up in the uk wasn't he because he lived in bradford uh yeah i suppose yeah it is where his family is and it's where he grew up and it's where he feels the most comfortable so i think he's probably just like in denmark i think it's just him vivian tony but in bradford it would have been a larger family network that he would have been able to like leave Farzana with and probably build a life there more easily. But anyway, he leaves Farzana with this relative, he moves Vivi and Tony over, he's living with them. And I don't really know what he's thinking here because how long is this sustainable? Because after just two weeks, the relative brought Farzana to Iftikhar's house and left her there. Just like Paddington Bear on the doorstep.

Here you go. I'm finished with this now. Your problem. Take your pregnant wife back. Exactly. So Vivi obviously was no doubt like, what the fuck is going on here? Because she has no idea about any of this. And to her credit,

when pregnant Farzana turns up, she got the hell out of there. She divorced Iftika and went back to Denmark and took baby Tony with her. And she never heard from Iftika again. God, I can't even imagine. I know. Explaining to your friends being like, oh, he actually went back to Pakistan, got married, and now she lives with him and I've got this kid and I'm on my own. And she's pregnant. And within a year, Iftikhar and Farzana's first child, Shafilia, was born. This is all very, very incredibly messy, but I think it's important

because it really does set the scene very early on for what type of people these two parents are. And the couple went on to have five kids in total. Like we said at the start, four girls and one boy, and Shafilia was the eldest. But they were no happy family. Farzana was a cold and abusive woman. She was trying to live her life, I think, in the UK, like she was still in a rural village in Pakistan. And heartbreakingly, she began abusing her children from an early age. And her punishments were incredibly brutal. She would offload barrages of emotional, verbal and psychological abuse on them, and do things like make the children stand outside in their underwear in the freezing cold them and do things like make the children stand outside in their underwear in the freezing cold for just doing things like throwing stuff around the house.

Her punishments are like completely out of proportion to what's happening. And quite like... Corporal. I don't even know what the word is. I don't know if traditional is the right word, but like making them stand outside. It's very like a Victorian. That's it. That's the word. Draconian punishments that she's giving out. When I went

to Catholic school, if you misbehaved, you had to stand with seven Bibles above your head outside. Oh, wow. When I went to Catholic school, but in India, they just fucking smack you with a ruler. Actually, the headmistress of the school that I went to, I think she got sacked because she threw a book at a child's head or something. She was a very angry lady anyway and one day she just went nuts and just like started pelting this kid with stuff. Good. Yep. And while all of the children suffered at Farzana's hands, her abuse was always the worst towards her eldest, Shafilia. Even as a child, she would lock poor Shafilia in her room without food for days. The children grew up in a loveless, cold environment filled with abuse.

Why is it, do you think, that Shafilia got the worst of it? Because she was the oldest. I think it's because she's the oldest. And I think it's because, as we go on to see, she's the least acquiescent one. She isn't wild. She isn't crazy. She isn't like some rebellious teenager. But she is the one, I think, that would have given the most pushback on her parents' rules and regulations, potentially.

And also, like, if you're the oldest, you're going to be the first one to push the boundaries, aren't you? Like, you're the first one that's going to be speaking to boys. You're the first one that's going to need to start wearing a bra. You're the first one to get your period. You're the first one to, like, do all of those growing up type things and I think in a situation like this all of those moments in like growing up are going to be major points of conflict we see the evidence of this as the story goes on because as Shafilia grew older the abuse got worse as Saruja said like Shafilia wasn't rebellious in the sense that we would understand that she's not smoking she's not taking drugs she's not skipping school she's not doing any she's not getting

tattoos and like piercing her nipples like it's none of that i think that's the thing it's like rebellion is always so subjective and i always found the kids when we were growing up to have the strictest parents to be the most wild oh yeah definitely and my parents never gave me anything to rebel against so i just never rebelled against anything. I was like so fucking tame when I was a kid because they were just like, yeah, do whatever you want. As long as you're always getting A's and A stars, you can do what you want. That was the rule in our house. So Asian.

I know, so Asian. I had very much tiger parents growing up, intensely so. Actually, growing up, they still are, bloody hell. So that's the thing thing I think it's all relative and although I say that I don't think Shafilia was needing to rebel to the extent that we would consider rebellion she just dared to have ambition she just dared to want to go to school she just dared to want to have friends and this was enough to fucking push Farzana and Iftikhar to the edge. And it wasn't just Fasana. Iftikhar, once the fun-loving party bazaar, totally switched. His daughter was going to live her

life how he wanted her to. And that meant in line with strict rules around what was and wasn't acceptable. And this is all rooted in honour. Honour in these communities is what does the rest of the community think of our family? How well respected are we? And respect stems in many cases how well behaved your children are, particularly your daughters. It's all about reputation. And gossiping and reporting happens between families. For example, be like, oh, we saw your daughter with this boy wearing this the other day so there's constant exchange of information between parents and if your daughter

is perceived to be behaving disreputably within the the structure of your community that brings shame upon your family and that you are dishonored by that. I was thinking about this this morning. I have never in my entire life not done something because I was worried about how it would dishonor my family. Ever. It's never even crossed my mind. That is something as a person of Asian descent, you do think about. Even though my parents weren't strict on me, it was maybe just tacit. It was just implied. These are the things that you would never do because it would be dishonorable comparing you know my scenario to this is like apples and oranges it's not even apples and oranges it's like fucking dogs and oranges apples and lizards it's like completely not related but I do think there is that underlying understanding that you don't do

anything that embarrasses your family in the eyes of the community. Right. Because I was thinking about like when, you know, when people ask my mum, oh, how Hannah's doing? And she's like, oh, she's a fucking nightmare. That doesn't make my mum look bad in that other person's eyes. I don't particularly think they'll say, oh, no, what's happened? Like they will say, oh, well, you know, Karen's doing her best and Hannah's just a fucking nightmare. It never reflects negatively on the parent, I don't think, in my experience. I mean, not never, but... No, no, I totally get what you mean

and I do think we'll come on to talk about this. I do think this stems from just the huge difference in Eastern culture and Western culture. What can be seen as actions that would bring dishonour upon a family? Because really, in this scenario, things as inconsequential to us can be deemed as deeply

shameful to these families obsessed with honor things like cutting your hair wearing makeup showing too much skin who your friends are so having the wrong kind of friends particularly i would say sadly integrating and especially even slightly associating with boys it's all about conformity you have to adhere to the strict rules of the community and if you step outside of those boundaries you're a selfish embarrassment. If you're parents and you can't keep your kids in line especially your daughters and they are quote-unquote running wild it's because you're a shit family and you don't have the respect of your kids and this kind of idea of honour is often tied up,

especially when these families and these communities are in Western societies with religion. And we do see it. There's no point hiding this fact. We do see it predominantly in Muslim, Sikh and Hindu families. But the thing is, this isn't really religious. It's cultural. To bring it back to what we were just talking about and why this wouldn't be something that you would necessarily perceive in your, you know, family or your community, Hannah, it's like you have to understand that in the countries that these families come from originally, there is an all-pervasive culture of collectivism. In Asia and the Middle East in particular, it's all about the community, the collective, what's best for the greater good for the whole. You as an individual, what you want, who you want, what you want to do, etc. All of this is less important than the family and than the community itself. As an individual, you should be willing to sacrifice for the greater

good. And this is fundamental to the thinking that underpins honor-based violence. And I think that this is a stark contrast to here in the West, where we live very much in a culture of individualism. It's all about you. We're so incredibly individualist in the West. I've just been thinking a lot about growing up and my experience of forming my sense of self, I suppose, in a way. And it's incredibly individualist. All I was ever told is go and do whatever you want. Go and be the best version of yourself. That forming that sense of self when you are a child, when it is happening in an individualist society where it is you should do what you want to do, you're always pushed to that. But in Eastern societies, your sense of self is formed

intrinsically attached to your family, to your community, to the greater good. And there is no pulling yourself away from that when you're then older. Being born here and being part of both those communities is very difficult. That was the deal that Shafilia had to cope with. She was born and brought up in the UK. So like many children of first generation immigrants, she had to find a way to straddle these two worlds, these two cultures. And I can, maybe I'm sort of speaking out of turn here, but I can imagine if you are from a society like her parents were, a very rural village in Pakistan,

where women aren't really allowed to do that much. And then you're living somewhere in the UK, where women can, apart from be a Catholic priest, basically do whatever they want. And it's not, it doesn't feel as distant as it would if she were living in Pakistan. So I can imagine that was probably quite difficult, having that inner conflict of like, oh, I am Pakistani, and I want to be proud of my heritage and my culture and be with my family, but they don't want me to be a barrister, and I know I can do that. Exactly, and I think for Shafilia, it would have been,

so her best friend is white, she's a girl called Melissa, and I think going to school and having somebody like Melissa, who would have been probably growing up in a very different scenario, and probably telling Shafilia when she would have said to her, I can't do that. Melissa being, why can't you do that? Yeah, why not? It's just some eyeliner. Exactly. Just do it. He fancies you should talk to him. Oh, let's go shopping and buy this. And hearing this one side of things in the way that she would like to be at school, being compounded to her by friends who were growing up in a very different home environment and then coming home and being told, take those clothes off and go dress appropriately. Even like her school uniform

caused her family discomfort. I just think being able to unify those two things when they're done right is a beautiful thing. Of course it is. you can have two cultures and be proud of both but when it is as fracturous and abusive as it is for shephelia as it was for shephelia it must have been just complete head fuck because she was a completely normal teenage girl she was interested in boys and makeup and fashion but so far out of the realm of what would have been allowable for her and all of these things would have been thought of as deeply dishonourable to a family like the Ahmeds. Arguments and abuse raged at the Ahmed home. Almost on a weekly basis, Iftikhar and Farzana

would hold Shafilia down on a chair in the living room and beat her. One time, after a particularly brutal argument, after Farzana found a boy's phone number in Shafilia's phone, she grabbed her daughter by the neck so hard that she left finger marks. They kept Shafilia off school for over a week following this attack so that the bruises would heal. Given that Shafilia had already complained about the abuse she was suffering at home, her teacher was worried when Shafilia was off school, so she called her house. The parents, with no other choice, put Shafilia on the phone. Her teacher asked Shafilia was off school, so she called her house. The parents, with no other

choice, put Shafilia on the phone. Her teacher asked Shafilia, should I be worried about you? And Shafilia, whose parents were stood right next to her, could only answer yes. After this, the parents knew eyes were on them at school, so they let Shafilia go back. But once Shafilia turned 16, this really became a pivotal turning point. And Farzana at this point just became completely obsessed with tracking Shafilia's every movement. She had total control of Shafilia's mobile phone for a start. She'd check it daily. Just imagine the amount of pressure and stress that would put on you. You don't even know what's going to set this woman off. Having to remember to wipe everything down, to get rid of everything,

to not have anybody's number in there that might cause suspicion. And who even knows what message might come through while she's checking the phone. I just think such a heightened level of stress was what Shafilia was having to deal with on a daily basis. Shafilia had also got herself a part-time job. But again, her parents had total control. They had access to her bank accounts and they'd take her money. And there would have just been absolutely nothing that Shafilia could have done about this. And during all of this,

the beatings continued. And the thing is with this, Shafilia kept reporting the abuse at school, which to me in itself, and we'll come on to talk about this in more detail, is completely unbelievable that she even reported this. So when she did, and they saw the bruises, her teacher called social services. I was completely shocked by that. She was telling people she wasn't keeping it to herself. She was telling the social services, she was telling school, she was telling the council. That in itself, I think tells you a lot about who Shafilia Ahmed was. She loved her parents. She did. But I think she just wanted to live the life she wanted. And I don't mean she wanted to like hang out under bridges and fucking

shoot up heroin. She just she wanted to be a barrister. She wanted to have the life she wanted. And I don't mean she wanted to, like, hang out under bridges and fucking shoot up heroin. She just, she wanted to be a barrister. She wanted to have friends. She wanted to have a chance at being happy. And she was going to do what it took to make that happen. But the thing is, when the school called social services and social workers came to the house, the Ahmeds were able to convince them that everything was fine. At this point, Shafilia was growing in desperation.

And as Hannah said, she even wrote a letter to the local council and begged them for emergency housing. She described them in detail in this letter about the violence and I just can't stress this enough exactly how unusual it is that she's doing this. In most cases of honour-based violence, the victim never reports the perpetrators because they are their own family. But Shafilia wanted out and she thought that her teachers, social services, the council, anyone would help her. She tried to trust these people to help her. She tried to escape. But sadly, they weren't able to do anything.

And I think Shafilia knew at this point that if she was going to escape, she was going to have to get herself out. So in 1998, she planned an escape. She stockpiled clothes at school so that no one at home would get suspicious. And her best friend Melissa helped her plan her escape. But just a few days after running away, her father Iftikhar found her and brought her back home and back to the violence. Her spirit was being crushed. Diary entries of Shafiliya's are so revealing. She wrote poetry as an outpouring of her suffering. She wrote, I'm trapped, so trapped,

so trapped. Now you know where I stand. When I fall back, I have nowhere else to land. I'm trapped. Shafilia had faced so much trauma. Her diary entries read as completely hopeless. But the thing that really stands out is that she never writes about hating her parents. Instead, she writes, I wish I could please my parents, but all I do is shame them. She didn't hate them. She wanted to please them, but also didn't want to live the life that they were demanding of her. And the abuse continued. Increasingly, Farzana and Iftikhar isolated Shafilia more and more from her siblings.

They locked her up in a room for days. Sometimes they even locked her up outside in the freezing cold. The anger was ramping up and was so out of control. Farzana would drive Shafilia to and from college. She's never on her own for a second. Farzana would also check Shafilia's bag and her phone and follow her basically everywhere she went. And again, this is all to do with the idea of honour and the way it manifests itself. Let's be real,

it's oppression. And it's an oppression that more often than not is aimed at women. My understanding is, which may be incorrect, if a boy is doing all of these things, nowhere near as shameful. To be like totally transparent, honor killings are carried out against boys as well but disproportionately it is women who are killed or you know face honor-based violence or abuse and the reason is there is definitely an attitude of boys will be boys the literal translations of this if you were to translate them from asian languages would be that a woman is spoiled if a woman steps out of line, if your daughter steps out of line and say, God forbid, associates with a boy, sleeps with a boy, she's ruined.

She's spoiled. Her reputation is gone. There's no coming back from that. If your son sleeps with a girl, okay, whatever. That wasn't great and you have shamed our family, but not nearly to the extent of having a girl who has gone out and done that. Because for some families, death truly comes before dishonour. In places like rural Pakistan, where Farzana had grown up, women, in effect, not seen or heard. Women's lives are solely about serving men. You're not to expect more than getting married and having children. They essentially live lives of total servitude.

And to expect more is dishonourable. There's definitely this mentality of if you expect more than that who the hell do you think you are why are you better than everyone else and you think that your desires are more important than what is necessary for this family and therefore you are being shameful your role in the community like we need you to perform this role so the community can continue to be strong. So by not taking on the responsibilities that we are ordaining for you, you are trying to bring down society. And to air those feelings or those ambitions or those expectations or desires to have more, you are shaming directly your parents

because then the community thinks what a shameful job those parents have done of bringing that girl up because she thinks she can do something more. And the terrifying thing is that most often, the entire burden of a family's entire honor is placed on the shoulders of women. In this case today, the price of honor for the Ahmeds was greater even than the life of their daughter. And sadly, this isn't an anomaly. According to official reports, 470 cases of honor killings were reported in Pakistan in 2017. And if that's what was reported, so more than one a day that year, just imagine what the real figure is. And we can never really know what the figure is because in places like this, where this kind of abuse is prevalent, like rural parts of Asia and the Middle East, tribal justice is still very, very commonplace. And by that, I mean, there will just be a group of self-appointed elder men who

decide to hand out punishments. There are constantly cases every couple of months. These are just the ones that come to the Western media's attention of women in India, in rural communities who are killed by these kind of tribal courts, quote unquote. They will use things like rape as a punishment. They will do things like if a woman is raped, forcing her to marry her rapist. This is the kind of thing that happens. And don't get me wrong, like times are changing, for sure. But this is still very much a common trend that we see. And there's no point denying it. It just is. And the thing is with these kind of situations is that the community will rarely turn against a family who killed their daughter for stepping out of line. Because it's understood, I feel like, that she must have had it coming. There would have been warnings. She would

have been told. And she still stepped out of line. She had it coming. And I also think that the reason the community doesn't question it when this kind of thing does happen is because it critically serves as a reminder to all others, including their own daughters, do the same and you'll face the same punishment. It's a deterrent. And this isn't just an issue in rural Asia. This is an issue right here in the UK. South Asian women in the UK between the ages of 16 and 24 face self harm and suicidal tendencies up to three to four times higher than that of the national average. That's remarkable. It's quite shocking, really. And at least one honour-based killing happens every month in the UK, according to a report by Safe Lives in 2017. That is fucking unbelievable. And again,

that's what we know about, even in the UK. Wherever this kind of abuse happens though, the thing to remember is that women are singularly and disproportionately responsible for preserving honour. And like we said before, with men who step out of line, mostly it shrugged off as boys will be boys. And in some families, as we'll see today, honour is more important than life itself. It's so deeply entrenched, there's just no way out. As a woman, you're expected to behave and dress in a certain way. And if you fall outside those boundaries, the feeling for the family is our community will now ostracise us and you'll bring us dishonour, so we have to deal with it. Let's think about the suicide rate and the self-harm being disproportionately higher among young Asian women. Do you think that is possibly a result of the pressures that you

feel from trying to straddle two cultures at the same time? I mean, obviously, you can't speak for everyone, but as a general... No, no. But I think it's a situation like this. Yes. Because if you are growing up in a society, in an environment where you're completely brainwashed that this is the only way you can be then maybe you don't question it but when you're growing up in a society where the outside world is telling you you can do so much more you can be anything you want to be but at home you're not being allowed to do that then yeah maybe that extreme contrast leads to this increase in suicidal tendencies and self-harm between such a narrow group as well, 16 to 24-year-old South Asian women,

up to four times higher than the national average. It's got to be. It's got to be linked to that. And it's tragic. What else really gets to me about this? A woman like Farzana, instead of thinking, in my upbringing I was denied all of these things like an education and ambition and freedom. I want to give my daughters everything. Farzana went completely the opposite way. And we do come across women like this quite often.

And most of the time, they will be the strongest supporters of the patriarchy. And they will ensure that their daughters will conform. It became clear to Farzana and Iftikhar that Shafilia was getting older and she still wasn't conforming the way that they wanted her to. So in 2003, when Shafilia was 16, they decided that they needed to bring her into line once and for all. They arranged a family holiday to Pakistan to go to a relative's wedding. But Shafilia knew that if she went to Pakistan, she would be in danger. She suspected that her family would take her there and marry her off. And she was exactly right, because that

is what her parents had planned for her. But how were they going to get Shafilia on a plane to Karachi? Nefariously, that's how. Iftika went to his doctor and he said that he had insomnia, so his doctor prescribed him heavy duty sleeping pills sleeping pills, which Iftikhar crushed up and gave to Shafiliya in a drink the morning of the flight. She could still walk, but the drugs were enough to get her on the plane to Pakistan. And there was no intention of Shafiliya ever coming back. When she got to Pakistan, her passport was taken away, and she was told that she would marry a man a decade older than her. It seemed like her parents had got their way.

She's now trapped in a rural village in Pakistan, surrounded by family who've been told that she was a rebellious girl, bringing shame upon the family. Shafilia had no way out, but she was about to take drastic action. They say Hollywood is where dreams are made, a seductive city where many flock to get rich, be adored, and capture America's heart. But when the spotlight turns off, fame, fortune, and lives can disappear in an instant. When TV producer Roy Radin was found dead in a canyon near L.A. in 1983, there were many questions surrounding his death. The last person seen with him was Lainy Jacobs, a seductive cocaine dealer who desperately wanted to be part of the Hollywood elite. Together, they were trying to break into

the movie industry. But things took a dark turn when a million dollars worth of cocaine and cash went missing. From Wondery comes a new season of the hit show Hollywood and Crime, The Cotton Club Murder. Follow Hollywood and Crime, The Cotton Club Murder. Follow Hollywood and Crime, The Cotton Club Murder on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge all episodes of The Cotton Club Murder early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus. I'm Jake Warren, and in our first season of Finding, I set out on a very personal quest to find the woman who saved my mom's life. You can listen to Finding Natasha right now, exclusively on Wondery+. In season two, I found myself caught up in a new journey,

to help someone I've never even met. But a couple of years ago, I came across a social media post by a person named Loti. It read in part, Three years ago today that I attempted to jump off this bridge, but this wasn't my time to go. A gentleman named Andy saved my life. I still haven't found him. This is a story that I came across purely by chance,

but it instantly moved me and it's taken me to a place where I've had to consider some deeper issues around mental health. This is season two of Finding, and this time, if all goes to plan, we'll be finding Andy. You can listen to Finding, and this time, if all goes to plan, we'll be finding Andy.

You can listen to Finding Andy and Finding Natasha exclusively and ad-free on Wondery Plus. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify. Harvard is the oldest and richest university in America. But when a social media-fueled fight over Harvard and its new president broke out last fall, that was no protection. Claudine Gay is now gone. We've exposed the DEI regime, and there's much more to come. This is The Harvard Plan, a special series from the Boston Globe and WNYC's On the Media. To listen, subscribe to On the Media wherever you get your podcasts. Before the planned wedding, Shafilia found and drank a bottle of bleach in an attempt to kill herself.

She suffered severe burns, but she didn't die. At first, Farzana refused to even call for a doctor. I mean, bleach. If you drink bleach, it destroys the lining of your mouth and your esophagus. The pain Shafilia would have been in would have been unbearable. But if they'd called a doctor, how could they explain her injuries? The community then would have known that their daughter had tried to kill herself, and the family of the man that they wanted her to marry would have found out. But regardless of the fact that they didn't call a doctor, the father of the man Shade had wanted her to marry did find

out, and he called off the wedding, calling Shafilia damaged goods. And there was no way after this bleach drinking incident that Shafilia was going to get married in Pakistan anymore. But if Tukar and Farzana, I think at this point they just didn't even give a shit if she lived or died. And shockingly, they left her in Pakistan and came back to the UK. They even cashed in her return flight ticket and got £250 back for her. That's unbelievable. I think you're right. She's waste to them now. Like she has no value because no one's going to marry her and she doesn't conform. So what's the point in her even being around? Exactly. And if they just come back to the UK, they can just tell everybody, oh,

we took her back to Pakistan and she's married and she's living there now. No one needs to know what's really happened. And this was a desperate act by Shafilia, drinking that bleach. And while it saved her from the marriage that she wanted to avoid, she was still very much trapped and now also in excruciating pain. And she'd been all but abandoned by the only family she'd ever had. And this is the thing in Pakistan. She'd never had close ties to her family in Pakistan. She was born in England. There's no accounts I could find of her regularly going back there. They've left her essentially in agony, surrounded by strangers in a foreign country. And the doctors in Pakistan said that they couldn't do anything for Shafilia. I just don't think in the situation that this family was in, the rural nature of where they were living, that the doctors could have had the

equipment and anything necessary to truly help somebody who was suffering from burns as badly as Shafilia was. And the family actually called Iftikhar and Farzana and told them, you need to come and take her back to the UK because we're scared she's going to die here. And they don't want to deal with this dead girl, obviously. Yeah, that's quite difficult to explain away, isn't it? They do bring her back. They send her back to the UK because they're so terrified that she's going to die. And once she's back in Warrington,

Shefelia spent weeks in hospital. There were obviously questions, but the family told the doctors that she had thought the bleach was mouthwash. No one is going to believe that. Nobody. And then she swallowed it.

What? The fact that they let her leave with them after that is astounding and obviously yes we are looking back at this with the the gift of hindsight we know what happens you don't know yet but we do it's easy to jump all over the the hospital and the nhs and the council because to us it seems perfectly obvious because we know what happened but that to me does seem like a red flag that shouldn't have been ignored or perhaps acted upon faster. And Ivtka and Farzana spent every day at Shafilia's bedside while she was in hospital.

And to the doctors, this probably looked like a compassionate, loving family with dedicated parents. But actually, they were just there to make sure that Shafilia kept her mouth shut. And once Shafilia was better, she left with her abusers. After this incident, she was weak for months, but by September 2003, she was back to herself. And once again, the tensions and the abuse started. In 2003, Shafilia disappeared. Her best friend, Melissa, and the school noticed that she was gone.

Shafilia had run away before, so her parents just told everyone that she'd run away again. A teacher was actually the one to report Shafilia missing to the police, not her parents. The police soon heard all about the issues between Shafilia and her parents, and as they began their investigation, they quickly became suspicious. They started checking CCTV, and it was weird to the police that Shafilia never appeared on any CCTV anywhere. So she hadn't run away. It was like she had just vanished into thin air. And the parents during the investigation were just so casual. They said to police, she's run away before, she'll come back. And this struck the police as very odd. If they thought

that Shafilia had really run away, why didn't they report her missing? And when they asked Iftikhar why he hadn't reported her missing and why it had been left to a teacher to do, Iftikhar's response is frankly, given the type of man we know him to be, unbelievable. He told police that he thought that Shafilia was at her boyfriend's house. Are you fucking serious? That's a joke. He's taking the piss. Obviously, that's going to raise some eyebrows when you're an incredibly conservative Pakistani Muslim family that's known for being very hard with your

daughters and to just be like, oh, she's at her boyfriend. No way is anyone going to believe that. And this immediately rung alarm bells for the police. There was no way that this man thought that. She wasn't even allowed to speak to boys. Now he's saying that he thought she was at her boyfriend's. I almost feel like he's making fun of her. Yeah, yeah, me too. Now also, when Shafilia had run away in the past, she had always told her friends, she'd always told Melissa, but this time she hadn't spoken to anybody. And if she had run away, people like Melissa and her friends could understand why she wouldn't be speaking to her parents, but she wasn't responding to any of them. And that struck everyone as very odd. And her parents didn't seem to care so much that Shafilia was missing.

They cared a lot more as to how they were being portrayed in the media. They made themselves out to the community to be victims of Shafilia's selfish behavior. They were the poor innocent parents subjected to the wills of an out-of-control daughter who had run away. But there were more and more red flags. Shafilia's bank accounts were never touched and suspicions around the family began to grow. And Iftiga was pissed by this, so he lawyered up. And the family started making public appearances claiming that they believed, even at this early stage,

that this was being labelled as an honour killing. And they called the police out for racial profiling. But the police didn't stop. In fact, they stepped up their investigation. In these cases, you often won't get information from the family or the community when people feel under threat, they close their ranks. So the police needed other ideas. And they got permission to bug the Ahmed home.

And they caught some stuff, but no explicit admissions. For example, they caught Iftikhar saying things like, quote, even if I killed 40 people, the police can't do anything without evidence. And they also captured the pest discussing things like how the police wouldn't find anything in the car and stuff like that. But it just wasn't enough to incriminate them. In fact, they captured them talking about how the police could have bugged the house, so they're not exactly going to be running their mouths inside anyway.

They're already suspicious. As the weeks went on, the coverage on Shafilia started to change. It went from missing to honour killing. And both the police and the parents went on the offensive. Police started doing press conferences without inviting the Ahmeds. They totally stopped consulting with the family and instead started appealing publicly for information. But the Ahmeds weren't having it. And at one of these press conferences that they hadn't been invited to, they just turned up. They burst in in front of everybody, all the press, the police, and started accusing the Cheshire police of racism. It was most certainly

a racially charged situation. And the Ahmeds' lawyer backed them 100%. He took it on as a campaign and started calling out the police for Islamophobia. And this whole situation just really inhibited the police who started to feel the pressure of not wanting to step on cultural toes. And the Ahmed's played this card to the max and the investigation began to stall. Well, you would, wouldn't you? that's an ace in their sleeve like absolutely this topic of islamophobia is obviously something that's discussed endlessly in the uk and there is this feeling of wanting to be culturally sensitive but then how far can you take it we've talked about this when we talked about fgm before um and it's so hard like i feel like i'm on eggshells even saying these words and i haven't even said anything do you know i mean

it's it's such a hot topic. No one wants to touch it because people are so afraid of getting called racist or Islamophobic. So no one talks about any of it. And I think that's negative as well. Absolutely it is. And we talked about this exactly when we did the FGM case. And it's something I feel really strongly about, this idea that, oh, cultural sensitivity trumps anything else. Like fuck does it. We know that

these kind of cases happen predominantly within certain types of communities. And unless we address that and talk about the real issues, then all it does is stop people talking about things because they're afraid of being called a bigot, being called a racist, being called Islamophobic. And what happens is innocent people like Shafilia Ahmed suffer. And like fuck, is that more important than the safety and well-being of the young women and young boys that suffer at the hands of things like honour-based violence and abuse? I totally understand why the police found themselves in a very difficult situation.

And I think that in other cases, maybe with the evidence that they did have, they probably would have been able to make arrests sooner. I think in this, they needed to have more evidence than could even be questioned before they could make an arrest or take this further. Because of their racially charged issues around this in the public eye. Not wanting to be called racist. Yeah, exactly. Yes, it's a difficult topic, but I also think that culture or community should never stop you from asking questions. Absolutely not.

So the investigation at this point is completely stalling. They've hit a wall. There's just nothing. Just a wall of silence around this case. But finally, in 2004, five months after Shafilia went missing, the police found something. In the Lake District, there had been a lot of flooding. And one morning, some workmen found a dismembered body washed up. It was Shafilia. She was identified by her jewellery and her dental records.

It was clear now, once they had the body, that this was murder, and it was also clear that she'd been there for a long time. Forensically, the body wasn't that useful to identify cause of death. There were no obvious broken bones or injuries, but the state of the body left no room for doubt. Somebody had killed and cut Shafilia up. And there were only ever really two suspects, Farzana and Iftikhar Ahmed. Finally, the police arrested them, but still, there wasn't enough evidence to charge them. The CPS expressed the view that to crack the case, they needed one of the family to come forward they needed someone to break rank but the family and the community were incredibly unlikely to do this witness intimidation is so high in cases like this and i think that comes from oh well if you

if you go forward and you tell them what's going on they're going to think we're all like that 100 this is the thing is up until this point, you don't really know if the community know exactly what happened or not. And nobody wants to feel like their community is under attack by the other, which is how the police would have been viewed. Shafilia's siblings were telling the police the exact same thing as Shafilia's parents and the community as well. So neighbours, friends, extended family, they were all also staying totally silent. No one heard anything. No one knew anything, as far as they would say.

Throughout the investigation, the parents constantly tried to make themselves the victims. It was always, Shafilia ran away and left us. Then someone killed our daughter, but the police are accusing us in a racially motivated attack. But thankfully, the police didn't stop because they remembered that Shafilia is the true victim. There was an inquest five years after Shafilia's death and the coroner at this point all but pointed the finger at the parents. And again, Iftikhar didn't just keep his head down. The parents tried to take the coroner to court

for daring to say that the most likely scenario was that they had killed Shafilia. And they fucking did and they know they did and they're still like trying to take the coroner to court. I'm always fascinated when people's reaction to being in the wrong is just so publicly and blatantly denying. Absolutely. Like Madeleine McCann's parents. You're gonna just get us knocked off the airway saying things like that. So by August 2010, the family are thinking that they've got away with it. It's been seven years by this point. The police investigation was stalling and there was less and less in the press as the story dried up.

But then suddenly, as we said, seven years after Shafilia disappeared, there was a turning point. Bizarrely, there was an armed robbery at the Ahmed house one night. Three men broke into their home, tied the family up and started tearing up the house. The parents said that they thought the men who had broken into their house were friends of their younger daughter, Alicia, Shafilia's sister. That's mad that they're like, everything that's gone wrong in my life must immediately be the fault of one of my daughters i mean in this case it is alicia's friends is it actually yeah it is actually alicia's friends so the thing is what happens is after the attack they started accusing their daughter alicia of arranging the robbery and alicia as we said she feel his younger

sister at this point was 22 and at university she was in debt she was struggling and she had a difficult relationship with her parents well for, for very fucking obvious reasons. So she'd organized the hit, as far as we can tell. I think, genuinely think that is what happened. I think she was like, let's go steal from my parents, and then I'll give you a cut, and then I'll have some of the money. She fucking hated her parents, and I think that's what this was. So the police arrested Alicia after the parents accused her. But when they arrested her and took her in for questioning, they got way more from Alicia than they ever bargained for. During the interview process, Alicia asked the police to stop asking about the burglary.

And in exchange, she would speak to them about Shafilia, her older sister who had gone missing seven years ago. Alicia broke rank and it all came out. Alicia told them all about the night her and her siblings watched their parents kill their sister Shafilia and it was exactly what the police had been waiting for. Alicia told the police that back in September 2003 her mum had gone to pick up Shafilia from her part-time job at a call centre. She found Shafilia wearing a top with short sleeves and heels and this had set Farzana off. The argument continued when they got home and Iftika got involved. They started the usual beating and then Fasana told Iftika to just, quote, finish it now.

And remember that everything we're about to tell you happened in front of all of Shafilia's siblings. The youngest of them was just seven years old at the time. Fasana held Shafilia down on the sofa while her husband punched their terrified 16-year-old daughter. Iftika then took a plastic bag and shoved it in her mouth, and then covered her mouth and nose with his hands. Shafilia wouldn't have been able to breathe, and when she would have tried, she would have just sucked the plastic bag deeper into her throat. Iftika then put his knee on Shafilia's chest. There would have tried, she would have just sucked the plastic bag deeper into her throat. Iftika then put his knee on Shafilia's chest. There would have been no way her chest would have been able to

expand even if she had been able to breathe air in. Alicia told police that Shafilia was struggling, kicking, thrashing and that she even wet herself in the attack but there was no escape. Together Farzana and Iftika held Shafilia down like this until she stopped moving. Farzana and Iftika then wrapped Shafilia in black bin bags and calmly loaded her into the car. The siblings by this point had been told to go upstairs and they watched them drag Shafilia's body outside from the upstairs window.

Iftika then dismembered Shafilia's body and drove 60 miles to the Lake District to dump her body in the River Kent. This was everything that the police had needed, everything they'd been waiting for for seven years. and drove 60 miles to the Lake District to dump her body in the River Kent. This was everything that the police had needed, everything they'd been waiting for for seven years. They had them. And in May 2012, the trial of the Ahmeds began.

And the prosecution at this point, although they had exactly what they needed, they were terrified, and rightly so. There was a gap between Alicia speaking to them and the date of the trial. What if she backed out? Like we said, witness intimidation in these cases is sky high, and Alicia was their only real evidence. But incredibly, incredibly bravely, Alicia did testify against her parents, and the story she told gripped the jury. There was no doubt in anyone's mind in that room that she was absolutely

telling the truth, and it was clear in court that the murder of her sister, that she had been forced to watch as a child, had had a huge impact on her. How could it not? The trial was massive news. It was reported on in intense detail and through the headlines and the bravery of Alicia, another witness came forward mid-trial to offer more evidence. A woman named Shanine Maneer reached out to police. She was friends with Shafilia and Alicia's youngest sister, Navish. Shanine said that she was so impressed by Alicia's courage that she had to speak up. Years and years ago when Shafilia was murdered, Navish had obviously been struggling, but she was too scared to tell her friends what had actually happened. Whenever Shanine asked what was going on, Navish would lose it.

And it's important to know at this point when Navish is talking to Shanine asked what was going on, Naveesh would lose it. And it's important to know at this point, when Naveesh is talking to Shanine about this, she is Alicia and Shafiliya's younger sister. She would have been about 12, 12 or 13. Shanine told Naveesh that instead of talking about whatever was bothering her, she should write it down in a letter and give it to her. Naveesh did and Shanine read it. It was the exact same story that Alicia had told in court. But when Shanine had read it all those years ago,

she was just a kid herself and she was too afraid to say anything. Soon after giving Shanine the letter, Navish got scared and asked for the letter back. It's so risky to put that story down on paper. Oh God, yeah. And I saw in the documentary that she didn't even hand it to to her she dropped it behind her as she was walking through the town square and Shanine goes and picks it up secretly. Like a spy drop? Yeah. This is how scared these kids were. She's like 13 at this point and she knows how scared she should be. I mean obviously she knows how scared she should be. She's watched her parents murder her sister in front of her so she freaks out after a few days after giving Shanine the letter and says please give it back to me. So Shanine gave Navish the letter back and watched Navish

tear it to pieces. But unbelievably, even as a teenager, as barely a teenager, Shanine had had the forethought to photocopy the letter. I think even then she knew that everything she'd read in there was 100% true. So now Shanine, as a woman, came forward and gave the police the photocopied letter. And unbelievably, again, because remember, Shanin Manir is part of this community as well. She testified in court. And the thing that's really sad about this is that Navish denies it. When Shanin comes forward, gives them the photocopied letter In her handwriting And tells her what happened Navish says

It was just some creative writing That it had never been true But it was word for word Exactly what her sister Alicia Was saying on the stand Completely independently And by all accounts No one else had ever read this letter

It was completely implausible That this wasn't true And the thing is The other siblings Including Navish Were called as witnesses For the defence And they all said That what Alicia and Shanin had said were not true. The other siblings all fully jumped to the defense of their parents. And it's not surprising. Taking

the stand against your family, against the community, it's near impossible. But the thing is, there was just no way that this wasn't true. And the prosecution had a pretty fucking strong case. So after the prosecution's case was laid out, I think Farzana realized this too and she changed her story. I think she knew now that she was fucked. So now Farzana claimed that it did happen as the prosecution had claimed, but that it was all Iftika. She said that she didn't even know that Shafili had died. Farzana, she's such a fucking manipulative, awful woman. She speaks in court so softly, so calmly,

always keeping her head down and always looking very sad. It's such bollocks. It makes me feel sick, honestly. She just thinks that's her only way out, to just sort of play the oppressed woman that couldn't possibly have stood up to her husband and blah, blah, blah, like bullshit. If anything, honestly, she's the instigator.

He's the henchman. He just does what he's told he's the muscle she's the fucking brains behind all of her and we've seen this before when we were talking when we did the the mormon episode it's so funny not funny like it's peculiar how these women who are very invested in maintaining societies in which women have no power are bossinging their husbands around. It's bizarre. It's a very, very bizarre phenomenon. So when she's in the stand, this wasn't the woman who had ruled her home and her family with an iron fist. The police played the recordings

that they got from bugging the family home. And when her performance in court was compared to the audio from the house, the act was up. I suppose it's quite difficult to sit there and play a timid woman when you're being played tape of you screaming. So Farzana claimed in court that she was scared of Iftikhar, but there is no way she was afraid of her husband.

In the recordings, she's heard yelling and shouting and giving just as good as she gets. So it's an act to save herself, but it doesn't work. And on the 3rd of August 2012, Farzana and Iftikhar Ahmed were both finally found guilty and sentenced to life in prison, there to serve a minimum of 25 years each. It had taken nine years, some relentless policing, and a whole lot of bravery from Alicia and Shanine. Alicia is now completely alone. She's lost everything. Obviously

her parents are in prison and presumably her other siblings have been taken into care. And she's also spent her entire life dealing with the impact of seeing her sister murdered. She then put her parents in jail, lost her family and her community, and she's still, even today, living in protective custody. This is the thing. In cases like this, it's so rare that a family member would come forward and speak out like this. And for her doing that, yes, she managed to get her sister Shafilia the justice she deserved. But in the process, she's lost everything.

This was such a difficult case. I found it really, really heartbreaking just because Shafilia is just completely innocent. She never does anything. And she gets murdered in the most fucking brutal way just because Shafilia is just completely innocent. She never does anything. And she gets murdered in the most fucking brutal way for absolute bullshit, quote unquote, honor. And for what? That's the case of Shafilia Ahmed.

So thank you for listening. We hope you found that insightful. I didn't want to say I hope you enjoyed it, but you know what I mean. And as ever, come join us at the Facebook group where Red Handed the Pod. You can come follow us on Twitter, on Instagram at Red Handed the Pod. You can also, if you would like to, help support the show by going to patreon.com slash redhanded. And there you can donate, pledge, whatever you want from a dollar onwards.

It really helps support the show. And here are some people who have done that this week ashley edwards tay solace lee moss hannah nowling sarah ashley edwards alicia kirkland vicky sharp jennifer brennan amy keys joanna barkley annie m lily mixell calandra ruffin eric johnson stephanie lenfest valerie norquay cassandra Hawkins, Alexandra Bergeron, Emma Francis, Dave Smith, Aisling Stringer, Annie Mee Hansen, Heather Rose, Nastia Salkova. I was doing so well. You were. Nastia Salkova, David Thingsaker, Jesse Henderson, Harry Maddox,

Krista Morrow, Erin Collier, Jesse Baulio, Lisa Stockholm, Larissa Slov... Ohio Lisa Stockholm Larissa Slo... Oh God Larissa Slov... Yonova I'm so sorry Teddy Gingerick Nicole Rood Jenny Greger

Good one I feel like I should I need a small crown for that So thanks very much guys and we will see you next week See you next week Bye Bye See you next week. Bye. Bye.

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