RedHanded - Erin Patterson & The Mushroom Murders: Part Two | #410

Episode Date: July 31, 2025

In our second and final part on Erin Patterson’s deadly beef Wellington dinner, we focus on the jaw-dropping trial.So: did she purposefully forage for death cap mushrooms, then cook and serve them to her extended family with the express purpose of giving them a slow and painful death? Did she really lie about having cancer? Or was it all just an innocent mistake?The video version of this episode will be on our YouTube channel from 31st July.Exclusive bonus content:Wondery - Ad-free & ShortHandPatreon - Ad-free & Bonus EpisodesFollow us on social media:YouTubeTikTokInstagramVisit our website:WebsiteSources available on redhandedpodcast.comSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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I'm Saruti and I'm a taxi and welcome back to red-handed and the concluding part of the case of Aaron Patterson if you haven't listened to Part 1 I'm going to be honest with you

you're going to be really fucking confused because for a case that centres around just one lunch there is a lot to wrap your head around so I would strongly urge you go and listen to watch part one because yes

these two episodes are being fully video recorded in our new commitment to Red Handed Britain where we record our episodes in a video format so if you are interested in doing that then you can head on over to the Red Handed YouTube channel where you can watch

part one and also instead of listen to this watch us do this podcast give at a try you might like it so the trial of Aaron Patterson kicked off on the 30th of April in the town of Morwell It's Morwell, I have learned

It's not more well Morwell Morewell Lots of Australian journalists getting it wrong Getting like the words wrong And then people were like Saying oh we got so many emails

Saying we were pronouncing it wrong It's Morwell not more well And I was like if you're Australian And you didn't get that right We're all fucked So yeah It's a big place Try my best

So yeah The case was Originally meant to have the trial unfold in Melbourne. Remember, Leon Gather is not that far in Australian terms from Melbourne, so everybody thought it would be there because it was absolutely huge case and

authorities knew that the public interest and the turnout would be massive. Erin Patterson demanded that the trial be kept close to her community, as is her right. But I do have a feeling that given a lot of Erin's behaviour

during the investigation and in the dock because yes, of course, she takes the stand. I would expect nothing less. Uh-huh. I absolutely firmly believe that Aaron Patterson believed that she could fool everybody. I'm a bit surprised she didn't represent herself. Oh, me too. I think she absolutely thinks that she is the smartest person in every room that she enters

and I think she made the mistake of thinking a jury in a country trial in Morwell would be easier to trick than a city trial in Melbourne. It's her mistake. I'm not saying I'm not saying. I think that. I think she thought that, and she was very sorely mistaken. But whatever the reason, for ten weeks, the journalists and basically anyone else wanting in on this very, very, very hotly anticipated trial, queued and balleted their way into this tiny, tiny, packed courtroom.

And the sleepy town of Morwell was absolutely full to the brim. Every hotel, motel and Airbnb filled their room for months. and cafes across the town I have it on good authority cleaned up every lunchtime selling mushroom toasties you got to love that Australian sense of humour before the trial got underway

some of the charges against Erin were dropped namely the attempted murder charges against her estranged husband Simon Patterson not much has been revealed about those charges or the investigation into them and I suspect that's probably because the prosecutors wanted a nice tight case

focused purely on the 2023 lunch and I think that's the right call yeah if they start pulling in like these unexplained stomach illnesses that simon had in 2022 like there's just you know nobody did any testing at the time like stuff like that so it would have just been opening themselves up to all sorts of problems so I think they did the right thing. Yeah, if they had brought extra accusations from the year before and failed to prove them beyond a reasonable doubt, then it could have weakened the whole case for murder. But despite the drop charges, the drama of the trial certainly did not disappoint. The prosecution's case? Erin Patterson had purposely foraged for death cap

mushrooms, dried them out in her food dehydrator to make them easier to hide in the meal, and deliberately served up the poisonous mushrooms in a beef Wellington with the intent to seriously harm or kill her guests. Erin's defence? It was all just a tragic accident. So both sides, just to be very clear, agreed that death cat mushrooms were in that meal. There's no like dispute over that fact. And there was also totally, agreement that it was these death cat mushrooms that had killed Don, Gail and Heather and put Ian in that coma. What was in dispute was the intent and knowledge of this from

Erin? In Erin's corner was Mr Colin Mandy, SC, a very highly regarded Victoria Barrister. And for the state, a highly experienced prosecutor, Dr. Nanette Rogers, SC. And as we work through the trial. We're not going to do it in chronological order. Erin didn't testify for the first few weeks, but it is her testimony that is absolutely key to so much of this case. So we're going to use that at the start. And we can't quite believe that Erin's barrister let her testify. Usually in a murder trial, the accused doesn't. And there are lots of reasons for that, but mainly because testifying opens up the defendant to being cross-examined by the prosecutor and that doesn't tend to go very well.

So, for a successful doc experience, Erin would have to outsmart, out-talk, and out-maneuver the prosecutor. She would have to charm the jury, and she would have to appear credible. And we are going to tell you how she did not manage any of those things. Not a one.

Yeah, it was a real bad, bad, move, as we are going to discover in this episode. Because when Erin takes to the stand, she brings up all sorts of theories and stories and ideas and hypotheses that came seemingly out of nowhere. I think one of the key things at trial, right, is if I was a defense barrister, I would assume what you're telling your client is stay on story. Stay on story. Like, we have to be able to back things up that you're saying. But Aaron says things that were not in Colin Mandy's opening remarks, and we know the opening remarks you're setting up for the jury what they can expect to hear. Some of the stuff that Erin says was not referenced there,

it's not referenced in police interviews, and most of what she said, in fact, directly contradicted what she'd already said before, as we spent much of last week breadcrumming you guys about. And also, nothing she now said could be backed up by other witnesses or any actual evidence. Erin also came across really, really badly in the dog. It's weird, I think, at time she comes across kind of like

oddly over-polite. Like, she does this thing where she's not required to stand up whenever the jury come into the room, but she does it. You're only required to stand up when the judge comes into the room. But she stands up whenever the jury comes into the room. And I think it's this kind of faux reverence, this faux respect she's showing the jury, trying to

manipulate them. But I think it just comes across a bit weird. And she's also very over-explanatory during a lot of the trial, but the things she's saying don't really make any sense. But also simultaneously, she's also really snarky and weird. I think that didn't help her. And of course, she also does more of her fake crying, which as we heard last episode, she's not very good at. The key questions that Dr. Nanette wanted to focus on were the following. Why did Erin lie about having cancer? Why did Erin lie about where she got the mushrooms from?

Why did Erin pretend to be suffering from poisoning when she turned up at the hospital? And why did Erin dump the dehydrator at the tip and then lie about owning one? Now, of course, the burden of proof is on the prosecution. It is not on Erin. But these are all certainly important questions for the defence to try and refute. So let's start with the cancer lie. Ian Wilkinson testified that Erin had explicitly said that she'd been diagnosed with ovarian cancer.

Erin said that that just wasn't true. She said that she had never told anybody that she definitely had cancer. Erin admitted that she had lied about the biopsy and about the MRI. She didn't really have a choice but to admit those lies because there was no records

found anywhere to back up that those appointments ever existed. Erin claimed that all she did was allowed, everyone to think that she had cancer because she enjoyed the attention and the care that she was getting from Don Angale in particular. The defence argued that, of course, this was wrong, but it doesn't mean that Erin Patterson is a cold-blooded killer.

And that's true. Loads of people do shit like that. Erin was just sad and lonely, and she didn't want to lose her in-laws, so she lied. The town of Agda in France is a child. It's famous for sun, sand, sea and sex. But lately, life on the coast has taken a strange turn. The town's mayor, a respected pillar of the community, has been arrested for corruption. His wife claims he's been bewitched by a beautiful clairvoyant. Then there's a mysterious phone calls that local people have been getting.

I am the Archangel Michael. The whole town has been thrown into chaos. As the mayor is unable to carry out his duties, I would like to address you all. Legal proceedings have been initiated. Join me, Anna Richardson and journalist Leo Schick for the Mystic and the Mayor, as we investigate a story of power, corruption and magic. Binge all episodes of The Mystic and the Mayor exclusively and ad-free right now on Wondry Plus. Start your free trial in Apple Podcasts, Spotify or the Wondry app.

Hello, red-handed listeners. As you well know, Saroo and I love diving deep into disturbing stories that expose the darkest parts of human nature. But we've just been investigating something that's completely different from our usual cases. Yet somehow, just as terrifying. Imagine falling in love with someone who seems perfect. They're beautiful, compassionate, always there when you need them. That's exactly what happened to Travis when he met Lily Rose. But Lily Rose wasn't human.

She was an AI companion. designed to be everything Travis ever wanted. And when her behaviour suddenly takes a disturbing turn, Travis's world completely unravels. In our new podcast series, Flesh and Code, we investigate what happens when the lines between real and artificial connection blur. Follow Flesh and Code on the Wondry app

or wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge all episodes early and ad-free by joining Wondry Plus. We more or less, knew that from the investigation. But then, at trial, Erin made another shocking admission. She claimed in court that she was actually planning to have surgery. Not for cancer, but to have a gastric band fitted. According to Erin, she had been too ashamed to tell the Paterson's about this. She said she'd always had issues with her weight and she wanted to tackle it once and for all.

So she says she had allowed them to think it was cancer because she knew that she'd need help with the kids as she recovered from the gastric band surgery saying I know it wasn't right but I needed an explanation for why I was having this operation. But even that seems to be a lie because, true to form, Erin named the Enrich Clinic in Melbourne

as the place that she was having this gastric ban done and she said that she had a pre-operation assessment booked at that clinic in September. But, as fate would have it, the Emirates Clinic don't do gastric bans. She should have binged it. Honestly, it's just so baffling. And just to put it into context

how late in the day this story is coming up, she says it when she's in the dock, right? And Detective Steve Eppingstall, the lead investigation's case, apparently, according to reporters who were there, stood up and ran out of the room because he was obviously going to fucking check on this clinic that he had never bloody heard about.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's how late in the day this sort of stuff is coming up. The Amrich Clinic do stuff like skin treatments, laser hair removal, that sort of thing. A bit of liposuction. But by the time the trial came around, they actually didn't even offer that anymore. So they just didn't really do any serious operations.

A gastric band is a big deal. Like, that's general anesthetic. That's weeks of recovery. It's a huge deal. You're not getting that done at the place that lasers off your mole. You're just not. That is a proper actual, factual surgeon doing big deal surgery on you. It's not just going to be performed like in a little.

The Enriched Clinic is essentially a dermatology clinic. It was true that Erin did have an appointment booked at the Enrich Clinic for some sort of assessment in the September. But she cancelled that assessment appointment the day after Donald. died. And when the fact that the Enrich Clinic didn't do gastric bans was put to Erin by Dr. Nanette, Erin simply said, well, I don't know what to say. That's what I was told it was for when I booked it. So she was forced to admit that she'd never been referred for a gastric banned by a GP. Because she stands by the fact that she believes that pre-assessment at Enrich was for a gastric band, she said, I don't know.

They misled me then. But she was forced to say, well, I'd never been referred by a GP, which would have had to have happened for her to have been on the list, for even having a pre-assessment for a procedure like that. So how could someone as clever as Erin Pattinson made such a dire mistake in the dock? There's no way that Colin Mandy would have signed off that testimony. Absolutely none.

This is the thing I don't understand, because Detective Steve Eppingstall and the prosecution not knowing about that is one thing. And as we found out after the trial was over, Erin had been held in custody for the entire time from her arrest up until the trial, right? If I was going to lie about having a gastric band and it's all playing on the sympathy of OI,

I was so insecure about it and I just didn't want to tell my indoors what I was really having done so I let them think it was cancer so they would help me afterwards. I wouldn't just know the name of a clinic and you assume you are going to be asked what's the name of the clinic that you're going to?

to say that you were going to have this gastric band in. And she presumably couldn't just ask her defence. Can you find out the name of a clinic for me? Because she has to sound legitimate. So maybe she just said one that she did know because she did have an assessment booked there. But like, I can't believe she wouldn't have told Colin Mandy the name of this clinic because he would have checked it up.

So to me it really seems like she just started saying this in the dock without his sign off like you said. I think she's vibrant. I think she's just winging it. I do not think that. That makes any sense in any way because a barrister like Colin Mandy would have checked that insider now. And I don't think he'd heard that clinic name before Erin said it in the dock. So yeah, let's talk about the whole cancer situation.

Personally, I do think that Erin was lying about the cancer for attention and sympathy. I think that that was the real reason. I think she was doing it to remain in the family fault to scare Simon and his parents and maybe force them to bend to her will and ultimately control. them because now it's not only oh Simon is being a deadbeat dad who's not paying enough money to like look after our kids I'm also sick with cancer and like you Gail and Don aren't even supporting me against your son who's a fucking deadbeat and nobody's helping me and I'm not getting invited to birthday parties I'm sick that's what it kind of comes across like and if

Erin allowed them let's go with her version of events if Aaron really allowed them to believe that it was cancer because she was too ashamed for them to know that she was actually having weight loss surgery and because she was too embarrassed. Okay, but there are lots of other surgeries that people can have that would mean you would need support in looking after the kids or all of that stuff. Why go to the extreme of saying it's cancer? That seems unnecessary if it's, if it is really just to cover up the fact that you're embarrassed about the gas trip and I don't know it's a buzzword though cancer can be lots of things

that's not a hot take but it is it gets people's attention absolutely out the gate that's why she's doing it and I think ultimately I do think Erin said it was outright cancer we know that that's a lie it's a massive lie again in people's minds cancer is the big sea for a reason and I think it speaks ultimately to Erin's character the willingness she was to lie about something so big when she didn't need to, if it wasn't just about control. And I honestly think that this lie, because I do think the jury believed that she had told them that she had cancer, she didn't just let them believe it. I think this lie would have further alienated the jury from her because nobody likes

a cancer con, particularly in this day and age where we've all been exposed to that kind of lie again and again and again, that manipulation, that grifting. And particularly in Australia, after things like Bell's. Gibson. I wouldn't be surprised if that put people off her from the very star. At trial, in the lead up to the revelation about the gastric band surgery, the defence had made lots of claims about Erin's issues around her self-image. It was repeatedly mentioned, but it wasn't just to back up this story about the weight loss surgery. Erin also used her self-image problems to explain away the huge differences in illness between her and her guests.

Remember, the morning after the lunch, while Ian Gale, Heather and Don were all in hospital fighting for their lives, Erin was out and about, driving her son to his flying lesson, wearing white trousers, and she stopped off at a service station to buy some sandwiches. She claimed that she stopped at the service station to use their loo because she had the shits so badly, she just could not wait to get home. but the sweet chili chicken wrap that she bought seems like an interesting choice for someone who is shitting their life away

It just makes, I don't know Maybe it's just me, it just makes me feel so gross The idea of being sick and having diarrhea And eating a sweet chili chicken wrap from a service station And on top of that She's only spent about nine seconds in the loo Which we know because it's on CCTV So that's not that convincing

either. And she also said that she stopped on the way for an emergency bush toilet break, but her son didn't seem to remember that happening. And also her white trousers were shockingly clean, if that really was true. So she takes her son when she's incredibly sick, apparently, on this incredibly long drive to go to this flying lesson. The son even says, mom was saying she was really unwell and I said to her, we don't need to go.

We don't need to go to this flying lesson. She was like, no, no, let's go, let's go. And so she puts on her best white trousers and then drives in there. The flying lesson is actually cancelled because the weather is too bad. And she says on the way, her stomach was so bad, she had to stop, pull over on the side of the road so she could go and go to the toilet in the bush. The sun doesn't remember this stop. The sun also, to be fair, to be fair to Erin, also doesn't remember stopping at the service station. But we do know that that happened because there's CCTV footage of her that.

And then she says, oh, I had to stop again at the service station because the diarrhea was so bad. But she's only in the toilet for like nine seconds. Erin's explanation for this was, well, I already went to the toilet in the bush and I actually just went into the toilet for nine seconds because I had cleaned myself up with some like tissues I had in my bag and put them in a dog poo bag and I wanted to put them in my handbag and then I wanted to put them in the bin in the toilet which like I'm all for not littering but I'm not putting that fucking shit in my handbag I would have left it in the bloody bush but apparently Erin is a better woman than I am so she says that's why I was only in there for nine seconds and then she

buys the sandwiches therefore her son apparently bush buys too and also how your trousers that clean if you had to stop and go to a fucking emergency bush toilet my I don't whatever But anyway, the point we are trying to get to is that that morning, when everybody else is in hospital, Erin clearly was not as sick as the others. To be fair, different people do metabolize death cap toxins differently. Various things are going to play a factor. I mean, first and foremost, the most obvious thing is that the other four were all much older than Erin. Erin at the time was only 48 years old, while the others were in their late 60s or early 70s. that is something that is fair enough.

And maybe she had less of the death cat mushrooms in the duck cell that was in her portion. She also said that she didn't finish her meal. She said that she didn't eat as much as the others ate. So again, that could explain it. After all, remember, Ian did survive. And there had been a case in 2023 where a Chinese tourist in Australia

had eaten a mushroom he had found under an oak tree and fallen ill, but he did ultimately recover. But the point is, though, that Ian and this Chinese tourist both did actually fall ill and then recover. We don't know that Erin was ever actually ill. We only have her word for it, the word of someone who has lied repeatedly. So enter, Erin with a whole new story at trial, because this situation of why she wasn't sick and the others were, it wasn't really adding up. she now claimed that after the lunch lot left she had cleared up

and then she had spotted the orange cake that Gail had brought along Erin said she had a slice of cake and then another and then another and then before she knew it she'd eaten the whole thing reporters who were at this trial

who were sat in the overflow room said that as soon as she started saying this the whole room went oh Because, according to Erin, after she had binged this entire cake, she said she had made herself sick. Now, she never actually uses the word bulimia. She never says that outright. But she paints a picture of having struggled with binging and purging for decades.

This, she suggests, is why she hadn't been as sick as the others. When asked why she'd never mentioned this before, like, you know, during the entire police investigation into this triple homicide. Erin claimed she was just too embarrassed. Which like, okay, I get that. But if information like that could have convinced the police that you weren't guilty of murdering three people and you still kept it to yourself all the way up until the trial two years later?

I don't know. I just think Erin spent a lot of time in that jail cell having a big old think about all of the questions she was going to be asked at trial. And she's so smart. Next up. Why did Erin lie about where the mushrooms had come from? And had she done that knowingly? The whole I got the mushrooms from an Asian supermarket plot line had been dismissed pretty swiftly.

There was just no way that only Erin had fallen foul of a packet of poison mushrooms from a shop. and she couldn't even remember where she bought them or anything about it. With no choice, really, at trial, Erin did admit that she had indeed forage for mushrooms in the past and that some of those foraged mushrooms could have ended up in her Little Beef Wellington's. Because Erin now claimed that she had a Tupperware box that she kept in her pantry full of dried mushrooms. dried mushrooms that she'd buy at various stores as well as dehydrated mushrooms that she herself had made using fresh store-bought mushrooms

and also dehydrated mushrooms she had made with foraged wild mushrooms. So basically what she's saying is that this Tupperware container that she had was a mix of all sorts of random dried mushrooms from all over the place. With me? Mm-hmm. Yeah. But that begs the question.

If Erin was eating these mushrooms that she kept in this Tupperware box all the time, as she herself claimed, and she'd also had those foraged mushrooms in there for months, because remember she says that she hadn't foraged for mushrooms in ages leading up to the lunch, which is why it never occurred to her that forage mushrooms could have been involved. How had she never got sick before? Because then what we're saying is this Tupperware box full of dried mushrooms that she has got in her pantry, that she dips into every now and then that contain dried mushrooms

some of which she's made, some of which she's bought, some of which she's foraged, etc. But she's never, ever picked out the Death Cat Mushrooms that were in that box until that lunch. And as you mentioned last week, Anna, Death Cat Mushrooms are incredibly seasonal.

So she couldn't have picked them right before the lunch. They would have had to have been picked months before in the autumn. So they would have been in that fucking Tupperware box but she never got sick before. She's too busy eating the kilo of mushrooms that she had in the cupboard. It seems quite obvious that Erin was trying to hedge her bets. She's trying to cause as much confusion as possible with regards to the origin of the Death Cat mushrooms.

And she's not totally stupid despite how this crime seems to have unfolded. It really seems like she totally believed that she was going to be able to lie her way out of this situation. in her mind she just needed to provide a beyond reasonable doubt that she knew there were death caps in that meal she fails I really think for her to be this sort of brazen about lying her way around things

she must have quite successfully done this before not to this extent but like have you ever met someone who just very obviously has never had anything bad happen to them it's like that She is something else, that's for sure. And I think she thinks she's a good liar, but she isn't. And the lies don't help her at all when it comes to trial.

Because this admission at trial of foraging came after Erin had repeatedly said during the investigation that she had never been foraging or mushrooming. When asked at trial why she had lied previously about this, she said she hadn't. She said she hadn't been asked specifically. But that is not true. And Professor Ronda testified as much. Erin said, however, that Professor Ronda had asked her if she'd been mushrooming, and she didn't know what that meant. But the police and even the doctors say they absolutely asked her about foraging,

and she had said no every time. So Erin claimed that she used her dehydrated that she claimed not to have to crisp up whatever she found with her children. and for once she actually has some backup on this claim. Erin was a part of a Facebook true crime group about Kelly Lane, which is another bonkers Australian case, which you can go and have a look at Red-Handed episodes 173 and 174 for more on that one. During lockdown, Aaron and four other members of this Kelly Lane group

broke away from the main group and started their own splinter cell. And these Facebook friends testified that Aaron told them that she would use her dehydrator to dry up mushrooms and other vegetables, and she would hide those mushrooms and vegetables in brownies for her children. She would be like, it's to make the kids eat more vegetables. But I'm like, but they're also eating a whole brownie all the time. Like, does that really help? And if you've dehydrated them, do they have any nutritional left in them?

They apparently, like, you really preserve a lot of the nutrients by dehydration because you just remove the water. But I'm like, it's not like it's in a bolognaise that they actually need to eat. They don't need to eat a brownie. But anyway, that's her. That's her story on that. And her kids, back this up as well. They said that they knew that mum hid mushrooms in their sweet treats,

but they did seem confused when they were asked about foraging because they couldn't remember ever having done that with their mum. And they are kids. Most kids might not know what foraging is. And also their mum is Erin Patterson. They're not going to be normal, are they? But police also pointed out that they couldn't find any books on foraging or mushrooms in Erin's house.

nor were there any searches about foraging or mushrooms before her visit to I Naturalist in May 2022 well after the lockdown started. So it didn't really look like Erin had started foraging during COVID at all. I think picking and eating random mushrooms you find is dangerous enough,

but doing it without even a book, like a reference guide or even a foraging blog, to help you, just seems quite unlikely. The police found Over 420 books in Aaron's house, so not one of them was on foraging or mushrooms. I also think this is a good point to talk again about the dehydrator. As you just heard, Erin did, at trial, finally admit to owning and using a dehydrator, she says.

Like we told you, it was just to dry up some mushrooms and hide them in brownies for her kids. And she said that she had chucked those dried up old Tupperware box mushrooms into this dehydrator to criss them up again because they were feeling a bit limp. Because remember, one of the questions we asked last week is if you brought dried mushrooms, why was their death cap toxins in the dehydrator? Because if they're already dried, why do you need to put them in the dehydrator again? She's now obviously telling us that she makes her Tupperware box of mushroom magic happen with mushrooms she gets from all over the place.

So maybe she had picked them fresh, dehydrated them and chuck them in there. But it wouldn't explain why there was death cap toxins in there now because she would have had to pick them months ago because of the seasonality of death caps. But I can believe what she is saying, that the reason there is death cap toxins found in the dehydrator now is because she had taken these dried up mushrooms from her Tupperware box and re-dehydrated them. And she said it was because they felt limp.

And honestly, I do believe her, but I don't think it was because they were limp. I think the reason was, is that she wanted to grind the mushrooms up. So she wanted to dry them out as much as possible. So she could grind them up into a powder. Because death cat mushrooms, she's gone to the end of the mushrooms. She's gone to the effort of getting them, putting them into this duck cell. If you just chop them up, people might pick them out. They might not like the taste.

They might not eat them. Maybe that's why it had to be a Wellington. But if you grind them into a powder because you have dried them out again and again in a dehydrator, it's going to be very hard for people to pick them out of their meal, just like how she had possibly even practising on the kits. She was also asked at trial why she'd never mentioned any of this. again during the investigation and Aaron said

while I hadn't been asked If we can stomach it for a second if we believe Erin and she is innocent why would you lie about owning a dehydrator and why would you lie

about having dumped it at the tip why would you dump it at the tip at all Erin said it's because she panicked according to her when she'd been at the hospital she'd been discussing the dehydrator and how she'd been using it to hide mushrooms in the kids' meals and on hearing this Simon allegedly said to her

is that what you use to poison my parents? Simon denies ever having said anything like that and to be honest it would have been quite the leap for Simon to make quite so early on even if he did suspect Erin this is like day one that they're at the hospital but in Erinland she said that this terrified her this accusation

she was just so worried that if she had accidentally harmed Gail Don Heather and Ian then the police would be able to trace it back to her and that would mean her kids would be taken away so she dumped the dehydrator and lied about it Nanette Rogers asked the jury on hearing this from Erin is this how any of you would behave? If people you say you love are sick and dying in hospital

and you suspected even for a second that you might know what had caused it, would you really be acting that early on, that quickly to cover up your tracks, they're not even dead yet? Or would you be trying to offer up every possibility to the doctors and the investigators, i.e. being as, you know, helpful and as compliant and as open as possible. Now, defence attorney, Colin Mandi, refuted this, saying it's hindsight bias, which is fair enough.

Basically, he refutes this on the idea that Dr. Nanette is not fair to ask the jury that because nobody really knows how they would act, give them a specific situation. And it's very easy for people in hindsight to be like, well, I wouldn't have done that. Nobody really knows. but it is hard to shake the idea that whether it was about where the mushrooms had come from, the dehydrator, the phones, as we will come on to, Erin sure was super concerned about covering up any and all evidence linking her to these deaths if she was, as she claims, innocent.

Why is that your primary concern if you're innocent? You know, rather than trying to help save the lives of these people you claim to love. I think that's pretty suspicious surely. It screams to me dumping things, factory resetting your phone, lying about this Asian supermarket. It all screams of a consciousness of guilt. Look, like, bitches be crazy, people lie, people are weird, people do mad shit all the time. But Aaron Patterson is asking me to believe too many mad things. I think that's the key thing.

It's not one piece of evidence. Exactly. It's not one thing. Even the journalists who were at this trial said it was very obvious that wasn't one smoking gun witness. It wasn't one smoking gun piece of evidence that they think convinced the jury. Again, much like in the UK, unlike in the US, we can't interview the jurors after, so we don't know what will have convinced them specifically. But I don't think it was one thing. As we say all the time on the show, it's the totality of the evidence. In 1992, federal agents surrounded a remote cabin

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Time Warner disaster, early and ad-free right now on Wondery Plus. And then, that was Funky Tom. Funky Tom has testimony about death caps and I'm going to give it to you. Dr. Tom May, who's Funky Tom's real name, is a fungi expert

and he was in court to tell the jury about death caps and we told you last week death caps are very rare in Australia and even when they do grow they don't really last that long in the wild, they don't like rain and they are usually

infested with bugs and because of that death cat mushrooms also don't typically last that long once they're picked which is probably why I'm dehydrated them And also, death cat mushrooms, according to Funky Tom, are extremely seasonal things. They only grow in the Australian autumn, which is March, April, May.

And if you remember, the posts by Dr. Funky Tom and the poison expert Christine McKenzie on the I Naturalist website that we went through last week. All flagged death caps growing in April and in May in 2023 near Leongathar. And I think this all paints quite an interesting picture of Erin's behaviour and her plot because the defence tried to claim that it was ridiculous to think that Erin had looked at an article in May 22 and then sat on the idea of using death caps to kill her in-laws and Simon's Aunt and Uncle until July 2023, a whole year and a bit later. But is it really that unbelievable? As we just told you, death caps are incredibly seasonal.

So by May 2022, when she sees that article that we told you guys about last week, the one that was like death cap spotted in, you know, in Victoria, and then that's where she finds out about I naturalist because that's the website that's linked and cited in that article, by that point in May 22, she's already missed the death cap picking boat. And remember, they aren't common anyway. So it's not that easy for her to find them that quickly. and I think she's already missed that opportunity in 2022.

So I think she waited until Australian autumn, 2023. And maybe she practiced or tried with other poisons. Again, this is hugely speculative. Speculation, speculation, speculation. Because remember, just because those charges of attempted murder against Simon, her husband were dropped before the trial, he was hospitalized with unexplained stomach problems in 2022. Maybe whatever she was using just didn't work

and she wanted to wait until she could get her hands on more death caps which would mean she would have to wait until autumn 2023 which is when Dr. Tom and Christine McKenzie's posts appear on Eye Naturalist and then she has the lunch a few short months later and so I think she waits she comes across these posts which again like I said last week we can't prove that she looked at or that she saw but she was on that website multiple times at around the same time and we do know that but she sees these posts let's say and then she knows she only has a small window to grab that opportunity to get those mushrooms

so let's say she manages to get her hands on some of these death caps and remember she has to forage for them because they can't be cultivated they can only be foraged for so she manages to get hands on some thanks to unfortunately dr tom may's and christine mackenzie's posts she dehydrates them to preserve them, and then she's free to organise that lunch as and when she wants. It is also worth mentioning that Dr. Tom told the court that dried Death Cat mushrooms have an absolutely horrific stench to them. I was wondering. So he says that he thought it would be surprising that somebody would cook with them, particularly for a special meal. Erin said that she thought the dried mushrooms in her tub smell absolutely fine.

But remember, she did tell investigators that she had originally rejected these mushrooms for that carbonara because they smelled too strong. So why would you turn your nose up to those mushrooms months ago for a pasta dish only to find them perfectly acceptable for a special family lunch? These eye naturalist posts are pretty damning. But the prosecution just couldn't prove that Erin had definitely seen the specific posts by Funky Tom and Christine. All we can say is that she had been on the website around the times that those articles were written. At trial, Erin did try to say that she didn't remember ever going on iNaturalist.com,

but even her own defence team said to basically ignore that statement because they did accept that Erin was likely the one looking at that website and it's likely that she saw those articles. But the question is, what evidence is there that Erin actually knowingly went and picked those deadly seasonal mushrooms? It's so funny that they are like, no, no, no. We accept that she went on the website. They don't ever accept that she saw those posts because why would you? There's no evidence that she did, but they are like, Erin, shy.

up. There's no point lying that you didn't go on that website or that you don't remember going on that website. So yeah, what evidence is there that she picked these mushrooms? For that, let's look at the testimony of the prosecution's digital forensic expert witness. A man with the coolest name in this case, I think. Shaman Fox Henry. What a name. That is quite a name. So Fox Henry told the court that on examining Erin's phone, he had found some pretty interesting cell tower phone data. It seemed to indicate that on the 28th of April, 2023, 10 days after Christine McKenzie posted on Eye Naturalist about spotting some death caps in Locke, Erin's phone showed that she had driven from Leanne Gather

to Locke, and that her phone had remained stationary in the area of Locke for about an hour. Then on the 22nd of May, the day after Dr. Tom had posted about death caps in Outrim, Erin's phone data showed that she had driven from Leanne Gathar to lock where her phone stayed stationary for 43 minutes and then from lock to, you guessed it, out trim, where again her phone was stationary for roughly 25 minutes. Then Erin's phone seemed to show that she drove back to Leanne Gather where guess what? She stopped at a shop and bought herself a food dehydrator. Two months later, three people who ate at her house would be dead from death cat poisoning. Obviously, cell, phone, tower data isn't perfect, but nothing is.

And shame of Fox Henry also admitted that this sort of analysis does come with limitations and that phone records can't precisely tell where a person is or was and what they did while they were there. And he also had to concede when questioned by the defence that he could not exclude the possibility that Erin's phone had connected to the lock and out-room-based stations from outside the area, so she might have just been a bit nearby. And Erin said that she didn't remember going to lock or out-rim on those dates,

but she definitely didn't do any foraging around that time anyway. And some of you may be thinking, even if Erin had gone to lock or Outrim or both, how would she have known exactly where to look? Well, as Dr. Tom explained in his testimony, he and Christine McKenzie, when they posted Online Naturalist, had included geotags on their posts. And according to Dr. Tom, these geotags are incredibly accurate

and a pin on there could lead you to a specific spot within meters. And when he was asked how easy it would be for somebody to identify death caps. Dr. Tom did admit death caps can easily be mistaken for a number of safe mushrooms and that they also change their appearance as they age,

so it would absolutely be easy for a lay person to get mixed up and accidentally pick them. Which is why you don't. Don't pick wild mushrooms. Ever. Just don't do it. But Dr. Tom did say

that he and Christine in their post had included pictures of the death caps. and both of them know how to identify death caps because they are both experts in this. So they had identified that they were death caps. They had taken pictures of them, posted them online, as well as the geotags for their location. So it seems like a pretty big risk for someone who likely, not 100%, but someone who likely saw these posts to then go and forage four mushrooms in those areas

where death caps had been spotted and pretty unbelievably coincidental to pick. ones that also look the same accidentally without knowing that they were death caps. The cell tower analysis of Erin's phone the day she left the hospital after the lunch is quite interesting. She said that she had to go home to feed her animals and pack a ballet bag, but she didn't return to the hospital for nearly two hours.

During which time, the doctor called the police. Erin claimed that she'd fallen asleep, but her phone showed that she actually, didn't go home. She was on the highway driving around, away from town. We don't know what she was doing, but my money is on panicking. Yeah, she wasn't at home napping. No, no, no, no. She was driving around thinking about what the fuck she was going to do. I don't think she ever thought that anybody was going to connect the mushroom dots quite so quickly. During that drive is when she was like, okay, I'll just go back, say that I'm feeling better. I'll also say that I fed

the meal to the kids and they're okay. So, you know, now there's three of us who are okay and four of us who are sick and like they're all old so maybe like we can just fudge it that way. I think that's what she's thinking about on this drive. But anyway, while we're on the topic of phones, let's talk about Erin's devices. And what has been dubbed the game of phones that she played. Last week we told you that Erin had factory reset the phone that she had handed into police on the day that they searched her home, which was on the 5th of August 2023.

And then we also told you that that same phone was again factory reset remotely using an app by Erin the next day when it was already in police custody. At trial, Erin was asked why she had reset the phone after the police had already taken it. To which she said, she just wanted to see if the police had been silly enough to leave it on. This did not sit well with the jury. I don't think they liked for a second this sort of snar. She's a lucky attitude. And I don't think they like for a second either, her laughing at the police during what was an incredibly important investigation.

She just can't read the room. She doesn't get it. I don't know why you would think that would be an appropriate thing to say. I want to see if they were silly enough to leave it on. Makes you sound so like condescending while the police are trying to investigate why four people are dying. It's just, it's very strange. And it just got worse and worse.

When the prosecution got into all the chopping and changing a phones, the sim swapping and the sneaky handset hiding. It all just made Erin look very much more like a woman desperately trying to hide something, so let's get into it. We are going to take you through the phone shenanigans, and it is confusing, so hold tight. There were at least four different phones involved in the game of phones.

There was a Samsung Galaxy A70, which is phone A, a Samsung Galaxy A23, phone B, a Nokia smartphone, and an Opo R15 phone with at least two sims that we know about. And they're all switched around at various stages. In court, Erin claimed that she had given phone A to her son in February 2023 after he damaged his own phone. At which point, Erin bought herself a new one, phone B. But then, in May 2023, Aaron's son also damaged phone A. So, according to Aaron, she just set the phone aside. And it wasn't really used by anybody.

So just be clear, all this time, Erin is using phone B. Right? Since February, 23, Aaron is using phone B. But then, all of a sudden, on the 2nd of August, 2023, four days after the lunch and, you know, like a day or two before three of her hospitalised victims died and the police then searched her house, Erin claimed that she checked phone A,

the one that her son had damaged in May of that year, and it turned out it was working. I don't know why checking phones that you have discarded in your house earlier that year is like a pressing concern for you when several people that you have fed a lunch to are dying in hospital, at all. Like, I don't know why that's, like, front of her mind on the 2nd of August 2023, but she says, I checked phone A and it was working. So she said, she moved the SIM from phone B, the phone that she has been using for months and months and months in the

lead up to this lunch, into phone A and vice versa. And then she said, she factory reset phone B, so the phone that she has been using all this time. So the handset, phone B, that Erin gave to the police three days later when they came and searched her house, was not the phone. that she had been using that year in the lead up to the deadly lunch. And the sim inside was also not the sim that she had been using all that year either. And the handset that she gave them for phone B had been factory reset on the 2nd of August. And then again it would be factory reset the day that the police turned up to search a house and then again on the 6th of August after it was in police custody.

Erin didn't provide the police with phone A that now had her usual sim in it, the one that she had been using in the lead up to this lunch and she also didn't inform them of its existence. At trial, Erin just said that phone A had been on the windowsill in her living room and it wasn't her fault that the police failed to take it. Yeah, there's like a picture from the police search that Colin Mandy points out like a black sort of rectangle on the windowsill and he's just like, nobody hid phone A from you, there it is.

Can't see it's a phone, it's just a black rectangle. The phone was just there. My client wasn't nefariously hiding. anything from you. She gave you the phone that she had been using for three days, but the sim in it was a wrong sim because it's in the other phone that she didn't tell you about. But why should she tell you? She has lots of phones. She has lots of phones in the house

up to you to find all the phones. But what's interesting and even more confusing is that when Erin got home from her police interview on the 5th of August she took the sim out of phone A and put it into the Nokia. Why would you do that?

We don't know. But it is weird. Erin claimed that she wanted to change her phone number after the exchange she'd had with her husband Simon at the hospital on the 1st of August 2023. When he'd asked her, is that what you used to poison my parents? Meaning the dehydrator, Simon denies ever having said that. And nobody else seems to have heard it either. But anyway, Erin told the court that she was

becoming increasingly concerned about Simon's behaviour and his allegations. and that is why she switched the sims and the phones and the factory reset and four times. And like, everyone has e-sims now. Who uses physical SIM cards anymore? And the saga continued because Erin said that a few days later on the 6th of August, 2023, she decided to keep her number after all and put the SIM back into phone A. What it looks like is she was trying to hide the SIM in another phone in case the police came back looking for. a phone because they would quickly realize that the sim that's in phone B that she gave them is

not her correct number. It's not the number that anyone else has for her. So I'm sure she thought they might come back. So I better move that sim into another phone. And then if they come back and be like, oh, here you go, here's phone A, the one I was using up until two days before you turned up at my house. But then when they never come back within those few days, I think she moves the sim back into phone A.

Oh my God. It's a fucking nightmare. And this bit took me so long to understand. They actually had to make a flow chart for the jury to understand what had gone on. I couldn't find the flow chart anywhere. If you know where the flow chart is, please don't send it to me because I don't care it anymore. But I looked for it for so long. And that's the best I can do to explain it all.

Hopefully it makes sense. Even if you don't get it, it doesn't matter. All you need to know is this woman is swapping swims, swapping phones, factory resetting stuff. Why is she doing all of that? It's very, very suspicious. By the time she does this, the police already had figured out that the phone that Erin had given them, phone B, had been factory reset multiple times. and also, as I said, they had discovered by this point

that the number associated with that SIM that was in that phone was not the number that people had for Erin. So, on the 2nd of November 2023, the police went back to Erin's house for a second search, mainly to try and find phone A and the right SIM card because by this point, they also know that there's another phone because the day that Erin is at the hospital, she's caught on CCTV there with another phone in her hand.

So they know there's another phone. phone. But guess what? The police have never found phone A. Because Erin claimed that that phone been chucked in a skip in September, quote, with a lot of other broken stuff during her annual spring clean. So who knows what else was on there? Look at all the evidence we have without even having phone A or that SIM card. Who knows what else was on there? It's a very circumstantial case. But it also ticks a lot of different boxes because you've got the same. science of the toxins being found, the digital forensics of the phone data, and of course, the personal testimonies of Ian and Simon, and some of Aaron's Facebook friends.

And speaking of her Facebook friends, they didn't only discuss true crime. We already know that she chared about brownies and stuff to them. They traded recipes as well, and they chatted about their lives. And if you're Aaron Patterson, chatting about your lives is almost exclusively sagging off your in-laws. In the weeks leading up to Christmas 2020, so about six months before the deadly lunch, Erin had started to talk about her frustrations towards Don and Gail and Simon Patterson. She and Simon were in the middle of a fight over the kids' school fees. Aaron felt that Simon wasn't paying enough child support, and like I said last week,

to be honest, like $40 a month per kid is not enough money. Does seem frankly quite pathetic. But Aaron felt like Simon's parents were taking his side and letting him walk. walk away from his responsibilities and not like holding him to account. But all the while, despite her frustrations about this, Erin had remained sweet to their faces. In all the text messages, we see how, like, caring Don and Gayle are. And Erin seemingly only let her true feelings out online. On the internet, on the other hand, she would say things like,

I wonder if these people, Gail and Don, have any capacity for self-reflection at all. This family, I swear to fucking God. According to them, they've never asked him what's going on with us. Why I keep kicking him out? Why his son hates him, etc. It's too awkward or uncomfortable or something. So that's his learned behaviour. Just don't talk about this shit.

So anyway, I sent a group message to them all last night saying how Simon is behaving is unconscionable. Don messaged to say that he and Gail don't want to get involved in the financial things, but just hope we will pray for the kids. I'm sick of this shit. I want nothing to do with them. I thought his parents would want him to do the right thing, but it seems their concern about not wanting to feel uncomfortable and not wanting to get involved in their son's personal matters

are overriding that, so fuck them. Don't message me, but I don't want to hear it. Simon will just be horrible and be gaslighting and abusive and it will ruin my day, and his parents will be more weasel words about not getting involved. But by refusing to hold Simon to account, they've made it clear. His word means more than mine. So that speaks volumes, even if they claim they haven't taken sights.

All right. Yeah. Now look, I don't think these statements are all that spicy. No. Really. I've said way worse things about people's parents. Yeah. Like, various news channels, though, have reported expletive, riddled, abusive messages. Erin Patterson posted online expose how much she hated her in-laws.

Like, okay. And the messages that Hannah just read to you are the worst ones that I could find. Yeah. Because they're all out there, like, as far as I understand, and I've read them all. And those were the worst that I could find. And yeah, they're not nice. No, but, you know, they're not that bad. No.

Obviously, if Gail and Don hadn't died, I think these messages would be a non-starter. But I think that these messages did really hurt Erin at trial. Now she tried to claim that she was just venting saying that if I hadn't been saying this to the people on this Facebook group then I would have just been talking to the goats about it I had no one else to talk about how angry I was about all this situation I know it was wrong I'm so ashamed and I didn't even really feel that way

I was just playing on the emotions of the group to get some support that I needed and she said it was wrong and she does more of her like unconvincing crying in the dock when she's talking about it and reports from the journalists who were there say that the judge didn't even offer her a break likely because it sounded so forced and fake and when she didn't get a break

and she didn't get the desired effect she just quickly stops crying. It's just so, it's so embarrassing. And just really hammers home even more that Erin didn't really seem to have that much empathy for the people who literally died. And it didn't help

that when Simon took the stand and told the jury how all the while his parents and aunt and uncle were dying in hospital, Erin never asked about them. Yeah. And to that, Erin said, no, I didn't ask, but we were already talking about them. Honestly, she is so bizarre and, like, self-absorbed. She doesn't even deny it because I think she can't, because they can see the text messages that are sent between her and Simon.

So she's not like, of course I did ask me. And she's like, no, I didn't, but we were already talking about them. So why would I ask about them? That's all we were talking about. But what Simon means is not just the fact that we're engaging with the fact that they're in hospital. She never text me in the morning and said, have they survived the night? How are they doing? What's going on now?

Like, she just wasn't interested. And Erin lies about other things, the Facebook group, people who are her friends. She never met them in real life, but they're her Facebook friends. They were the ones that gave the police the messages about her dehydrating mushrooms and hiding them in the kids' foods because they thought that was incredibly suspicious. And they also testified against Erin saying that Erin had told them in these Facebook group messages that Simon was coercive and controlling and abusive. And Aaron was like, no, I didn't. I never said that. Honestly, it's just lie upon lie upon lie.

It's like everyone else is lying, but I'm telling the truth. It's like when a child lies and you're like, I'm a grown up. No, you didn't. So, yeah, inconsistent memories and very obvious lies. It was not looking good for Erin Patterson. The judge does make it clear, Justice Christopher Beale, multiple times throughout the trial, every time Erin has sort of caught out in a lie,

and she does also admit at points during the trial that she has lied. Justice Christopher Beale says to the jury again and again, she's not on trial for being a liar. This is a court of law, not a court of morals, which is fair. He should absolutely say that. But there were just so many lies. She lied to the victims about having cancer. She lied to the police repeatedly about multiple things.

She lied to the doctors and she lied to the jury. And they knew it. Because Erin had to admit to her lies. Because Aaron was forced multiple times throughout the trial to admit to lies that she had told during the investigation. And I just think how can the jury believe? her. What? Like, yes, I was lying then. I was lying all these different times, but I promise you now, I'm telling you the truth, so believe me. So yeah, you can say all day long, this

wasn't a trial about her lies, but it is a trial in which her credibility is very important. Yeah. And also, like, her memory gaps, quite selective. Some things Erin remembers very, very clearly, and others she just remembers absolutely nothing at all. For example, the packaging and the label and the weight of the bag of mystery mushrooms, but she couldn't remember which shop she'd got them from. And remember she's decanted them from this bag into a Tupperware box months before, but yet she can still remember what the packaging look like. And once, Prosecutor Dr. Nanette got a date wrong, and Erin corrected her.

And, okay, like she is on trial for a triple murder, so I would be picking up on mistakes if they were being made. as well, but it also shows, like, how specific Erin is capable of being when she wants to be. So in the end, the jury was asked to consider four things. Basically, they had to be satisfied on all of these factors, right? One, that Erin had caused the deaths. That's kind of not in dispute. She cooked the lunch.

Everybody agrees death caps were in there. Number two, that her actions were conscious and deliberate. Number three, at the time of the conduct she intended to cause death and or serious injury. And number four, that she was not acting in self-defense. Seven days after this, we finally had a verdict. Guilty on all counts. And look, I do think that was absolutely the right decision. I think the jury did absolutely the right thing, right conclusion.

I was worried when we got to like day five and we didn't have a verdict that there was going to be some sort of mistrial but I have since learned that the jury actually only deliberated for a few hours every day. Okay. So actually if you add up the total deliberation time

it wasn't actually that long. Seven days just make it sound like it was quite dragging out. So Erin is now currently being held at the most notorious female prison in Australia the Dame Phyllis Frost Institution just outside Melbourne, alongside terrorists, and where she has already had an accusation thrown at her

of tampering with another inmate's food. Since her conviction, more and more information has come pouring out as it tends to do. The most notable is probably the interview with Dr. Chris Webster, the physician who initially treated all of the victims. He spoke to the age newspaper, and he said that he suspected Aaron Patterson of the murder when she told him that she'd bought the mushrooms from Woolworths,

He said, quote, if she said she picked them, it would have been a very different mindset for me because there would have been an instant assumption that it was all a tragic accident. But once she said that answer, my thoughts were, holy fucking shit, you fucking did it, you crazy bitch. Boys in the mall. She wasn't freaking out about the safety of her children. Looking into her eyes, I thought, I don't know what planet you're on, but you're not on Earth. That's bang on. That is bang on what she thinks is, exists.

Like, she doesn't live here. Oh, my God. It's so true, though. It's so true. When she says to him, I bought them for more words. He is like, you are lying. You are lying to me. And doctors deal with people lying all time.

Yeah. Next up, let's talk about the psychology of a poisoner. particularly with regards to Erin Patterson and her potential motive. Because one of the things that everyone keeps saying with this case is what was her motive? Well, we'll get to it. But firstly, poisonings. Poisonings are considered to be a very rare crime. I actually couldn't even find any proper statistics on like how many fatal attempts occur every single year.

Obviously saying that though poisonings do have the, the potential to be quite an undetected form of homicide, so we may not know, but I think rare is a fair assessment, especially mass poisonings. They are incredibly rare because they're obviously really fucking suspicious. Now, poisonings are also typically associated, as we all know, with female killers. And it does seem to be true. The numbers do seem to bear out with that. And I think it's probably because it speaks to like a covert form of aggression.

I think you could have the belief that women on a whole may feel like they're not capable of carrying out a physically aggressive crime of like mass stabbing for people to death or shooting everybody without being overpowered. So poisoning I think fits in quite well with that. It's still aggressive, but it's a bit more covert and it also fits in quite well with like a woman's role in caretaking. Like look, she invites all her family over. She cooks them this nice lunch. She's talking to them. It's all very nice and very civil. She slips it into the food.

And as we see, everyone trusts you. It's easy. And poisonings are also sort of, not sort of, they are associated with, like, nonviolence. Also, like, I would say more people take themselves out with poison. Yeah. When I was looking for statistics, the main thing I kept finding was self-inflicted poisonings. But I don't think we can say that the way the Paterson's and the Wilkinson's died is non-violent. Like, it's a pretty horrific.

A terrific way to go. Absolutely. A week of slowly one by one your organ shutting down. I'd say that's pretty fucking violent. It's not like stabbing someone, which is quick. Erin's victims died slowly over five to six days. Also, poisoning is by its very nature premeditated. And in this case, it does look quite a lot like Aaron Patton was planning this for over a year.

And not only that, but the various stages of her plan. are all quite complicated. She had to find the mushroom. She had to pick them. She had to dehydrate them. She had to cook them. She had to serve them. She had to watch them eat it, knowing what was about to happen.

And then she managed all of that while putting on an act that she had ovarian cancer and that she was desperately worried about her children. I think it's so cruel. She had so many opportunities to not do it. And she did it anyway. So true. So many times it was she could have stopped. And she didn't.

So it's absolutely what you said, very, very, very premeditated. And she's also just very casually going about her business in the aftermath. And I think it speaks to a very longstanding motivation. Not a crime of passion or like a spur of the moment act that you just got yourself hyped up for and you did it and then you regretted it afterwards. Like where the red mist descended. I just cannot see how that is the case here. You're so angry for a year that you're like Googling these mushrooms. You're finding them.

You're going and picking them all with a furrowed brow the entire time. and, like, cooking up this fucking meal and, like, serving that. Like, it's fucking bullshit. It is so cold. It is so calculated. It is so premeditated. And it is so cruel. And honestly, because of that, also very baffling.

Because all of these things together, how premeditated it is, means that it's very difficult for people to understand the motivation. Why on earth would Erin have wanted to go through with this heinous act? Because there isn't any clear. really clear, substantial animosity other than the whole, like, you know. We're not getting invited to a party. And like the child support situation. But I think even if Erin ever did explain why she did this,

we will never really be able to understand her motivation. I believe that Erin did this simply because she's an incredibly controlling woman who thinks that she is smarter than everybody else. And maybe her true target had been her husband, Simon. Perhaps she decided that she had to poison everyone to cover that up. Because remember, he was meant to come to the lunch. And could that have been why she was weighing the mushrooms? Did she want Simon to get most of them and the others to just get a little bit?

But when Simon pulled out of the lunch, Erin went ahead with her plan anyway. why wouldn't you just change the plan? Have you been planning this for a year? And he pulls out at the last minute. I don't know. I think she stuck with the plan. I think her initial... This is just pure, again, speculation, theorising.

Erin still says that she is innocent, so she is not offering anything up. I think possibly... And I'm happy to also discuss some other theories I have, but I think possibly Simon was the intended target. She invites everybody over. She actually wants to kill him, but the rest of them are sort of cover for her,

and then she knows she'll pretend to be sick. but oh isn't it tragic Simon Simon died or whatever and I think when Simon didn't turn up because she tries to get him there she texting him saying you need to come tomorrow it's really serious I'm sick blah blah blah and then when he doesn't turn up

I think she's like she could have stopped she could have not done it but I think she goes ahead with it anyway maybe she didn't think the others were going to die and maybe I think she changed up the plan because personally and maybe she did know they were going to die because personally right I look at this case

and I think if somebody really wanted to hurt me killing me is one thing, but then I'm dead, I'm gone. Making me watch my parents slowly die over the course of five days while their organs shut down and they wither away in a hospital. Bingo. And when discussing her motive, I've also seen lots of people online pointing out the fact that she was so kind to the family.

So why on earth would she want to kill Gail, Don, Ian and Heather? because remember she put Simon's name on these new properties that she bought, she lent his siblings huge sums of money. Why would she now turn around and kill these people with seemingly no motivation? It just doesn't hold any water for me because people seek power and control. And Erin is somebody who strikes me as somebody who uses her money because she had a lot of it because of those inheritance to achieve power and control. I think by lending his siblings money and by putting these hands,

houses in Simon's name, I think she was doing it to keep them all indebted to her. That way, even if me and Simon's put up, because I can't be bothered to deal with his shit right now, everybody still owes me, because I did this for you. So don't you fucking forget it? And don't you fucking turn your backs on me? And I think she thought that would keep them under her control. And I think she started to realize that that wasn't going to, because Gail and Don weren't defending her when it came to the child support payment. And she also wasn't invited to that 70th birthday party. And when Simon put him down as separated on that tax form, Erin probably felt like it was all getting a bit too

close to the bone, a bit too far away, a bit too slippy slidey. As I said at the beginning of last week's episode, I'm not going to do a murder about it, let alone three, but it would have made perfect sense to her. And maybe she did measure the mushrooms out because she didn't want them to die. She just wanted to make them a bit ill. Yeah, that's another theory you see. like that she didn't actually want any of them to die and she was just trying to cause a bit of an upset stomach situation. Maybe it's so she could nurse them all

and then they would need her even more and no one could possibly not give her child support payments if she was doing all of that. I mean, wouldn't you feel awful this woman, this saviour, this incredible martyr of a woman that's in your family that's lent all of the siblings, all this money who's taking care of everybody, who's a great mother to these kids,

And now she's nursing these people back to health because, yes, of course, she fucked up. She made them sick, but it wasn't her fault. And now you're not going to invite her to birthday parties? Yeah. And you're going to take Simon's side over the fucking child support? I think not. Yeah, I know people who think like that. For sure.

Power and control. And I think when she realized that money wasn't cutting it anymore, I think she was like, what else can I do? All of that is pretty interesting theorizing. And as Hannah said multiple times, that wouldn't be enough for you to be motivated, Hannah. to kill a bunch of people. Also, wouldn't be enough for me to kill a bunch of people. But I was surprised by the number of comments that I've had the misfortune of reading online about people essentially making excuses for Erin Patterson,

not saying that they don't believe her. People on there asking, well, what did Simon do to make her do it? And can I just say, if a man had done this, no one would be saying, well, what did she do to deserve it? Because if you did, people are like, you fucking piece of shit for saying that. How dare you say that? Why are we infantilizing Aaron Patterson? Why are we stripping her of her agency?

Is it just because she's a woman who happened to kill? So many people are like, oh, well, I couldn't believe she's a mother. She's a mother. And I'm like, she is just as capable of killing because she's a woman, because she's a mother. Doesn't mean she's not capable of killing people because she fucking did. And I don't know why we are so intent on looking for excuses or stripping agency away when we have female killers. It does such a disservice to women full stop if you are doing that. people commenting saying things like

oh Simon Patton such a deadbeat dad and of course she was pissed after everything she did for his family and then they like turn their back on and then he's paying her $40 like of course she was fucking pissed I'm sorry if he's a deadbeat take him to court go to child services go to social services

get your lawyer do whatever excusing cold-blooded murder it's baffling to me I don't even think that this classifies as a financial motivation I don't think that it was for $40 a month no I don't think so I don't think that was the reason because financial motivation and revenge are typically what female killers are motivated by.

We know male killers tend to be motivated for sexual reasons, but female killers tends to be money or revenge. I don't think this was about money because I think it was absolutely about revenge because Erin had more than enough money. I'm not saying it's right, by the way. I'm not saying it's right that Simon wasn't contributing more towards the kids. But Erin didn't need to kill him or the family to get her hands on more money that she desperately needed or felt she was owed. she wasn't going to get any money because Simon died. Like, she already has more than enough money to raise her kids on her own without a penny from Simon. And it's like, why are we using that argument of like, they're making the same argument that people are like, oh, well, like if someone sexually abuse my kid, I'd kill him.

It's not the same thing. It's not even remotely in the same ballpark. Look, she did not need to kill to get her hands on any money that she somehow desperately needed or felt she was owed. This was pure and simple in my mind. A revenge killing slash some sort of. Munchausen-y thing gone wrong, possibly. But I'm sorry, if we're going to go down the road of saying she accidentally did it, or she, not accidentally, but she didn't mean to kill them, she just wanted to make them sick.

They're called fucking death caps. I'm sorry. There's a lot of things you can feed people to make them sick. Quite. She is not a stupid woman, and I just don't believe that she would go to such great lengths to get such a specific poison. if she didn't want them dead. The only thing I can think is she knew that death-capped toxins leave your body within a few days

and she thought she'd get away with it. But pick a dish that people don't know how mushrooms in, maybe. But there's no theatre to it. That's the problem, I think. Maybe Erin killed all of those people to punish her estranged husband and she thought that she was going to get away with it. And perhaps if she killed all of Simon's family, then he would need her again.

And maybe that's what she meant when she was talking about bringing the family back together. I think it's quite obvious that's the way she thinks. So what now? Erin has already made it clear that she plans to appeal her conviction, because of course she does. And the basis of this appeal apparently is because the jurors, some of the media, some of the witnesses and the prosecutors all ended up staying in the... same hotel. So the jurors, when they went in to deliberate, was sequestered. And basically, this trial went on a lot longer than anybody thought. It was initially meant to be like five weeks

and it ended up going on for 10 weeks. And I honestly think there was just some mistakes that took place with booking hotels because a lot of the journalists were like, I wasn't booked to stay there that long. And then I was having to keep booking rooms. And the town was fucking full. So everybody was just trying to get a room wherever they could. And it's not a big place either. Yeah. And so I think it was just purely an accident that the jurors and the witnesses and the prosecutors and the media all ended up sort of staying in the same hotel. But that can give the optics that the jury may have been influenced to. It's worth a shot, isn't it? Yeah. To out of court influences, let's say. I don't think it's going to amount to anything. I wouldn't have thought so, no.

Personally. But whatever happens now, Aaron Patterson has absolutely sealed her fate. as one of Australia's most infamous mass murderers because that's what she is. People keep calling her fucking serial killer. She's a mass murderer. But anyway. And sadly, I think her legacy will live on forever

in Australian pop culture. The next, a dingo ate my baby, perhaps. Only this time, she was really bloody guilty. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. Oh, like Catherine Knight. I just think it's one of those things that the Wellington, the mushrooms, I just think it's just going to enter.

like, not folklore, but yeah, just like pop culture. 100%. Yeah. 100%. Enough of Aaron Patterson. Let's talk about the victims' families for a sec. The Wilkinsons and the Patisons were there every day of the trial, as well as a friend of Erin's, who supported her throughout the entire thing.

And this friend got a lot of shit online, but it was quite amazing to actually see that when the verdict, came in, the Paterson's went to hug her. Which actually just like made me tear up because the journalists who were there who talked about this said they were worried that because they've been to trials where after the verdict is read out

good or bad like whatever each group is wanting that there'll be like kind of animosity between the groups that are there to support the defendant and the families of the victims and they were like God this woman's had so much hate online what's going to happen to her now like is she going to get sort of mobbed before she gets out of the trial

and the Wilkinson's direct family didn't come on the of the verdict, but they sent like representatives there on their behalf, like family friends. And I just thought it was incredibly moving that the Patterson family representative went and hugged this friend at the end of it. It just speaks to the kind of people that they are. And this further speaks to the kind of people that they are because Ian, remember, he is the local pastor and he continues to play that role. It just seems like a very, very, very nice man. And he led a service at the local church after the verdict was read out where prayers were said for the victims and prayers were also said for Aaron Patterson.

And I think that is in such stark contrast to how Erin came across in the trial, like snarky and a bit bitchy and a bit like she thought she was so much better than everybody else. And I think those whose lives were completely destroyed by what she has done handled themselves during the trial and afterwards with so much grace that it is honestly hard to ignore. 90% of what Simon said about Erin when he testified was positive. He talked about what a great mother she was, talked to her. about how funny and witty and intelligent she was, despite the fact that he knew she had murdered his parents and his aunt and uncle.

And Ian, Ian Wilkinson, who lost his beloved wife of five decades, the mother of his four children. Every second he was in the dock and spoke, he never ever spoke with anger just with sadness. Wow. So fuck Aaron Batterson. Fuck Aaron. And how does someone so awful marry into people who are so nice?

I think they're too nice. not in that they deserve to get murdered, please don't think that. What I mean is, I think they're the kind of people who see the best in everybody. And I think they saw the best in Aaron. And she used that to murder them. So yeah, guys, that is it. That is the case of Aaron Patterson, the mushroom murders, absolutely a case that nobody is going to forget in a hurry.

And a case that's not going to go away because she's going to try Mount this appeal, blah, blah, blah, blah. But honestly, I'm done with it. I'm done with this case. She did it. I've seen nothing that convinces me otherwise. Do you think she meant to kill them? I think she meant to kill them.

I think she wanted them dead. I was undecided until I like really thought about the specifics. And if she wanted to make them ill, there's a load of ways you can do that. That is the case. I think the only thing I'll end on to think I forgot to mention was that fact about anybody who still has doubts about her picking those mushrooms and like months before and people being like, oh, so premeditated, there's no motive. Sorry, like she picked them months before.

And that also explains why she brought the dehydrator the second day she had gone out to outrim. Even if you think that the phone data isn't 100% solid. She bought the dehydrated the second day. Because I think she went to go see Locke when Christine McKenzie had said it. But I think she sees maybe sees the post a bit late because she goes out 10 days later. Or she goes out 10 days later waiting and hoping there'll be regrowth. She goes out there. Obviously she doesn't get enough.

And then she goes out again in May when she sees Dr. Tom May's post. Again, I don't know if she saw it, but I think probably yes. The phone data shows her. going back to lock and then out to out trim. And then that same day she buys a dehydrator. My other theory is maybe that day she did go out 10 days after she had seen the Christine McKenzie post to lock, maybe she did get some death caps that day, but didn't know, as Dr. Tom May told us at trial, that they don't last very long.

Once they're picked, they fall apart. So maybe she picked some then and she thought, I'll just keep them in the fridge until I want to use them. And maybe they fell apart. And that's why when she sees Dr. Tom May's post, she's like, fuck, I've got to get some more. She manages to get her hands on some in outtrim or in lock or both. And then that's why that same day she buys a fucking dehydrated because she knows that's the best way to preserve them

so that she can use them later. I don't know. I do. She did it. She did. So let's end it there. We hope you enjoyed that. Go check out Flesh and Code.

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