RedHanded - FROM THE VAULT - Episode 173/4 - Keli Lane: What Happened to Baby Tegan?

Episode Date: May 13, 2024

To celebrate and get everyone in the mood for our soon to be iconic Antipodean Tour, we are digging up some of the craziest cases from down under that we've ever covered! Patrons can access tour tickets on Monday the 13th (TODAY!) via their Patreon feed, and general release is Wednesday the 15th, links below!NZ: https://premier.ticketek.co.nz/shows/show.aspx?sh=REDHAND24AUS: https://premier.ticketek.co.nz/shows/show.aspx?sh=REDHAND24In this week’s episode the girls delve into the aftermath of John Borovnik's discovery, the police investigation that followed, and the subsequent trial that saw Keli Lane charged with murder - more than 13 years after her baby vanished.But even after all this, major questions around what drove Keli's behaviour, and of course what happened to baby Tegan, still remain...Exclusive bonus content:Wondery - Ad-free & ShortHandPatreon - Ad-free & Bonus EpisodesFollow us on social media:YouTubeTikTokInstagramXVisit our website:WebsiteSources available on redhandedpodcast.comSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to Red Handed early and ad-free. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. and lives can disappear in an instant. Follow Hollywood and Crime, The Cotton Club Murder on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, it's me. In case you're wondering what this is, it is, of course, a little Antipodean trip into the vaults of Red Handed. Of course, in honour of our upcoming Australia New Zealand tour.

We are so excited. So, we took a look back at some of the best cases we've covered from Down Under. And over the course of the next few weeks, we're going to be re-releasing them. Just to get you and us in the mood for coming down to Australia and New Zealand. So, very importantly, check out this episode. And if you are a patron currently listening to this, well, guess what, guys? Tickets are on sale now for you. 13th and the 14th of May, you get exclusive first access to tickets. So go now, get your tickets. Password has been posted

on Patreon. Everybody else, don't worry. Tickets go on sale on the 15th of May. All tickets go on sale at 12pm, that is noon, local time. So get your tickets, don't miss out, and enjoy this incredibly I'm Saruti. I'm Hannah. And welcome to Red Handed. If you're listening to this week's Under the Duvet, after this immediately, we recorded that way before the election results came out. So that's why we're still in a state of confusion when you listen to that particular episode. We're just trying to just trying to get ahead of the game. But that means that we're sometimes behind the curve on under the duvet. But it's all good news since it's all good news since. Well, not really. I mean, it's good news. Like Biden won, but 70 million people still voted

for Trump. So he's not going anywhere. I saw an incredible tweet that was like, Trump has 26 allegations of sexual assault. Why do you think he's going to start taking no for an answer now? Exactly, exactly. And the Republicans were like, we'll just wait and see what happens and then we'll decide what we actually think. And then they were like, oh no, but he got 90% of the Republican vote. So they're just like, no, he's our man.

Just because he lost, he lost by 4 million, but like 145 million people voted. So like, meh, you know, swing some roundabouts. No, he's not going anywhere, unfortunately. I don't know the answer to this because I don't understand the political American system very well. But does anything happen to the leader of the opposition? I suppose they don't really have a shadow cabinet like we do.

No. So it will just be like the House and the Senate, but then they're still elected. So it looks like Biden may not get the Senate that the Republicans will hold on to it, which will mean that he'll be able to do absolutely fuck all. So, you know, let's just wait and see for that happy day. Anyway, yeah, we just wanted to rectify that so that if you do go listen to Under the Duvet, we do know, we do know that Biden won. Don't worry, guys. I don't want to be Debbie Downer. And I understand where people are very happy. And it is great news. But I think if anyone's thinking this Trumpist brand of politics is going away, either here or in America, it's just not,

it's just not. And I didn't know this, because I didn't remember him saying this. But apparently Biden called Boris Johnson, our Donald Trump, and he doesn't like him and I was like well this is gonna be great oh no they really hate each other the next issue is what's going to happen to our relationship with America now like that's their problem because Biden has been quite vocal about the fact that he thinks Boris is a twat like the rest of us yeah and he doesn't support Brexit at all and fucking hell did you see Farage did an interview and it wasn't this morning, but it's some sort of new show where he'd gone over to America and he was like, Donald Trump is my friend. And then apparently Trump introduced Nigel Farage as the king of Europe. That's not

what he wants to be. That's the opposite of what he wants. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. It's because Trump genuinely doesn't know who he is. He doesn't know what to call god. Oh my god. It's because Trump genuinely doesn't know who he is. He doesn't know what to call him. Yeah, totally, totally. So he's just saying things. Maybe he thinks he is the king of Europe. Maybe he does. I mean, yeah, like maybe I'm giving Donald Trump too much credit. Maybe that's what he thinks a Nigel Farage is. Who knows? But we'll just have to wait and see what happens. But Britain, we have well and truly painted ourselves into the fucking pariah corner,'t we we're just like we're gonna brexit because trump's gonna save us oh shit what oh fuck now what we'll see now what

we'll see so anyway uh let's leave all that behind and shall we talk about an absolutely fucking insert your favorite adjective here case because I don't really know what to describe this case as. Me either. I've got absolutely no idea. I don't know. Like, this case took so fucking long to research and put together that we've had to turn it into a two-parter, guys. There's just too much. There were like 20 pages of notes.

We will just collapse if we try to do that in one part. So this is part one. Stay tuned. And you'll lose interest, honestly. Let's face it. You will. You will lose interest. You won't listen. You'll, you'll, you know, be playing fucking Candy Crush on your phone, looking at the election map still. So no, we're going to split it up into two episodes. This is part one. Part two comes out next week. Stay tuned for that. And yeah, pay attention. That's what I'm gonna say so what happens when someone no one has ever met vanishes I wrote that and I was like that's a good one well done Saruti and then I was like okay I

have just written that to be very dramatic I should probably say what happens when someone barely anyone has ever met vanishes well today's case is a story of just that. And of lies, liars, cryptic pregnancies, and the mystery of a missing two-day-old baby. And for all this and more, we're off to Australia, specifically to Sydney's northern beaches, and even more specifically to the town of Manly. Before we kick off though, I do have to say this because we got a lot of messages about it. I don't remember which episode it was. It was in whichever last Australian case that we did. Maybe it was toasty. I don't know. In an Australian episode we did, we got called out for saying that the Gold Coast is where the Teacher's Pet podcast and the case of Lynette Dawson went down. Whoops, you guys were right.

Everybody who messaged us and told us that isn't where it happened. This is where that story happened. It's in Manly on Sydney's northern beaches. So Manly, if you don't know, is a suburb of Sydney. And it looks to be a very affluent place. It apparently has one of the best beaches in the world, according to various websites and TripAdvisor. It seems to be all very nice restaurants, big houses, boutique shops and good schools. And I've written down here, it's like Cheshire, but on the beach. But I've never been to Cheshire, but all I've ever heard is how nice it is.

And I couldn't think of another really middle class suburb that's really nice because I kept thinking Cheshire. It's like fine. Oh, OK. Just fine then. It's like Surrey. Yeah, it's like a suburb in Surrey on the beach. That's what it is, I think, from what I've understood. But more beachy, more holiday-ish, more Australian. And in this town, however we're going to describe it,

there lived a girl named Kelly Lane. And from the outside, Kelly was an ordinary local teenager. But in the six years spanning from 1992 to 1999, a series of very bizarre events unfolded in her life. Between the ages of 17 and 21, Kelly got pregnant five times. And unbelievably, it seems that she managed to conceal these pregnancies from everyone that she knew, even though she was living at home with her parents, going swimming on a regular basis, and having regular sex with boyfriends. Kelly terminated the first two pregnancies, and then she carried the remaining three to term. Of the three babies who were born, she adopted out two.

The other baby, Tegan, vanished two days after she was born. The last person to see Tegan alive was Kelly, and to this day, no sign of baby Teagan has ever been found. So what happened to baby Teagan? Strap in, because we are going to try and find out. No promises. We'll give it our best shot. On the 21st of March, which is my sister's birthday, 1975, Kelly Lane was born to parents Robert and Sandra Lane.

The Lanes were a very sporty family. Her dad Robert had been the runner-up at the first ever Bondi Beach surf competition back in the olden times and then he'd gone on to play rugby professionally for the Manly Marlins before settling down to become a police detective. And after he retired from the police he went back to coaching the Marlins rather than playing. And Kelly's mum Sandy was a local water polo coach, so they were delighted when Kelly got into water polo as well. Kelly was a popular girl.

She excelled at school, she was smashing it in sports, and she was known around town as a bit of a golden girl. So by the looks of it, Kelly had it all, and everyone described the Lanes as a happy family. Though it is hard to know the real truth because one thing that stood out about this case when we started to research it was that very few people who lived in Manly

and who knew the Lanes and who knew Kelly want to speak out about what happened. If you watch the documentary that is out there, we're going to talk about it in these two parts quite a lot, but it's called Exposed, The Case of Kelly Lane. It's on Amazon Prime. You see them trying to sort of ring up people who are in the area at the time and speak to them.

And people are just like, no, no, no, putting the phone down. They're not sort of interested in getting involved. And I think it's possibly because the general vibe in Manly seems to have been quite cliquey. And while maybe it seems counterintuitive, because I'm going to say it's also very gossipy, I think it's because people don't want to be the one who's like being the person who's outing the community secrets to the outside world.

If you see what I mean. They will talk about it in and amongst themselves. They just don't want to tell the outsiders about it. And it's the kind of place that just from, you know, a few interactions with the locals there that you watch in this documentary, you can tell it's the kind of place that everyone knows everyone and everyone knows everyone's business and they're all up in it and I don't know Manly I've never even been to Australia but I think that there is a reason they call Sydney's northern beaches the insular peninsula and I think it's probably not just because it's quite fun to say it sounds it is fun to say it is fun to say isn't it I know that this is incorrect but I have also never been to Australia if you

want us to come tell your mates to listen because we can't come with the numbers that we've got at the moment. Precisely. So it's on you, Australian listeners. Absolutely. Put the work in. Absolutely. Everyone who keeps posting on the Facebook group saying, come to Sydney, come to Melbourne. We'd love to.

We'd love to, guys. Tell your friends to listen. And then we will. Maybe. Exactly. So I think, having not been to Australia, that Australia is split into two kinds of people. And it's people who are like neighbours and people who are, maybe. Exactly. So I think, having not been to Australia, that Australia is split into two kinds of people and it's people who are like neighbours

and people who are like home and away. Okay. And I would wager that these are home and away types, I think. Ah, yes. I would agree with you. I would agree with you. I think there's a third type of Australian because I have also had the misfortune

of watching a few episodes of Australian Love Island. Anna, that was something. Oh God, why have you done that? I don't know. I thought basically I really, so I really enjoyed Married at First Sight, but of all of the variations, so UK, US, Australia, I enjoy Married at First Sight Australia of all of the variations so UK, US, Australia I enjoy Married at First Sight Australia the most and so I thought well if I have enjoyed Love Island UK in the past maybe I'll really love Love Island Australia. I didn't. It was horrible. It made me sad. I turned it off but if you haven't Hannah watched Married at First Sight Australia the most recent season I would implore you to do so because there was a lot of late nights in bed with me just like pseudo creme on face, hair up in a silk wrap, watching it in the dark, just screaming

at my laptop. It was very entertaining. Anyone who has seen it, talk to me about Davina. What is wrong with that woman? Anyway, we're getting well off track. Let's get back to this. So those who have said something, because there are a few of them who have spoken out since, do note that Kelly's parents were very strict and that they had super high expectations of their kids. They're like white tiger parents. That's the way that it comes across. It's like in Australia,

they call it like the tribal seaside towns. That's kind of what they're describing as I feel like it's all very cliquey it's very insular dad plays rugby that's a big deal dad's then a copper it's all very like you know you know you know so I feel like they super need Kelly to be like a somebody to be like this golden girl because it reflects upon them massively within this community if you're like a coach of whatever team, professional or not, people know who you are and people know who your kids are within the communities. They're definitely prominent people. Precisely. They are definitely

that. They have a very good standing within the community. I thought this was quite interesting because when you read about this case in a lot of places you'll often see people say that Robert was this big scary guy so Robert's her dad Robert Lane is Kelly's dad and that he's this big scary guy who the kids were terrified of and that he was like you know the real iron-fisted one maybe maybe but I don't know I think Kelly's friends say that they were actually much more scared of Sandy who's Kelly's mum and when I watched a documentary on this case, again, the exposed one that's on Amazon Prime, I kind of have to agree. But, you know, we're going to come back to this.

So, you know, just remember it. I think other people's mums are always scared. Yeah. Oh, my God. I'm not scared of other people's dads. I'm scared of other people's mums, for sure. Especially Sandy Lane. Yeah, I just, because you don't know the rule book. But whatever the dynamic within the Lane family was, the Lanes were highly regarded in the local community.

And it is easy to see why. The dad's not only a coach, he's a former rugby star, a professional player and a copper and obviously a coach. And rugby is a big deal in that part of the world. And obviously mum's a water polo coach as well. Very involved in the community life. Yeah, apparently in this town, they all go to the rugby on a Sunday to support the Manly Marlins.

Like, it seems like a religion there. Like, rugby is it, especially in this particular town. So you can see why as well, like, Robert Lane is quite revered in a lot of ways. Our story kicks off properly when Kelly was at the McKellar Girls High School in Manly. In November 1992, at the age of 17, Kelly Lane got pregnant for the first time with her boyfriend, Aaron Tyack. Kelly was Aaron's first proper girlfriend, his first love, and they spent all of their time on the beach, surfing, partying, carefree, young, love, home and away stuff.

And the unplanned pregnancy was a bit of a shock. Don't really understand why, because if you have unprotected sex, that's what's going to happen to you. I know. And this is the thing. It's like, they're always like, everyone's actually like, they're so surprised that this keeps happening. But it's like, apparently the thing is, Kelly admits this as well, and people also

say this that she was quote unquote using the pill incorrectly and just saying to the various like baby daddies that she's like I'm fine I'm on the pill but she's apparently not taking it properly so I assume maybe she's just like missing days or not taking it at the same time or whatever else is happening and she just keeps getting pregnant so to be honest like I don't know so like to be as consistently pregnant as she is I don't think she's taking it at all I really don't I don't know what's happening the only thing I can think for what might be happening here is that Kelly is quite a big drinker she is like she's in the water polo team these girls go fucking hard right is she just getting so drunk that she's sick quite a lot and then that negates the pill I don't know like I have to be a lot sick

I know I honestly I don't know I don't I don't know how you can be taking it this incorrectly maybe she's not putting in her mouth like I don't know what's don't know how you can be taking it this incorrectly. Maybe she's not putting it in her mouth. Like, I don't know what's happening. She's putting it in her ears. Like, I don't know how you can be taking this incorrectly. You'd be surprised. My mum's friend is a GP and she used to work in a gum clinic. Not a gum clinic.

The one, like, a family planning, like, let's have a baby or let's not have a baby. Not the sexual transmitted disease-y one. Anyway, and apparently this couple came in and they were talking about the pill and what should I call her um Dr. Microgynon who's my mom's friend said she was like so what what problems are you having and this couple the woman's like well you know like I took it for a bit and that was fine but then he took it for a bit and he didn't like it and Dr Michael Kynan was like what so like some people genuinely don't know these people genuinely thought that if the man in the couple took the pill then that would be okay what what yes true story facts oh my god oh my god these are adult people. These are adult grown up people. Oh yeah.

These are like functioning adult people with like jobs and a car. No, take it away. Take it away from them immediately. What the fuck is happening? That's like, you know, when we were younger and you used to read like the fucking sex misunderstandings column in like Ms. Magazine. And it would be like kids writing in being like, oh, can I use a fucking crisp packet as a condom like this they're adults they're adults oh my gosh what else are you googling why didn't you google how to use the pill well you you know it's free and it's there and it'll tell you why didn't you oh my god listen when the doctor gave it to you and was like you have to

take this every day while she was looking at the woman not him maybe that's what gps need to do they need to be more explicit not him not him never him just you oh my god okay well then maybe maybe now i need to take down my like shockedness about everything that happens in this case by about tenfold now that you've just told me that story because, fuck, that's outrageous. Yeah, so these people exist. So the unplanned pregnancy was shocking, apparently. Kelly told Aaron about the baby

and they both decided to keep it a secret and eventually Kelly decided that she was going to have a termination. According to Aaron, they were both devastated but felt that they were just too young and figured that this was the right thing to do. So Kelly got on a ferry to Sydney to have an abortion. So there are hospitals nearer to where she lives. Like she doesn't need to get on a ferry to go to Sydney,

though apparently it's only about a 20 minute ferry. So it's not like that big a deal. But it's because her mum at one point had worked in healthcare, like possibly even as a nurse. So I think she doesn't want to go to any of the local clinics or local hospitals in the area just in case her mum finds out. So this is the kind of reason for all the ferry trips across. So sadly after this, the relationship between Kelly and Aaron started to fall apart. But before it officially ended one year later in November 1993, Kelly was pregnant again.

The details of this particular pregnancy, though, are a bit blurry regarding who exactly the baby's father is. Kelly and Aaron were still sleeping together at this point, but she was also sleeping with an older married man. And we don't know who this man is because his identity has been protected by the courts. All we do know is that he was married and that he and Kelly were involved for about four months or so. So she's about 18 at this point. And we don't know how much older this guy is or really anything about him. But in 1994, knowing that she was once again pregnant, Kelly got on the ferry to Sydney to go and have another abortion. She was reluctant to go back to the first clinic that she had used for abortion number one.

So Kelly found a different one in the city that she thought would take her. But this time there were some added complications. It turned out that Kelly was much further along in her pregnancy than she had been the first time. She was approximately 20 weeks pregnant, and the clinic that she turned up at told her that they couldn't do the procedure there. They were only able to go up to 18 weeks.

So they referred Kelly to another clinic who could carry out the later-term abortion, and she had the termination the same day. When filling out the paperwork at this clinic Kelly lied about almost everything except her name. She gave a fake address and phony contact details. And this would go on to become a pattern of behaviour for Kelly. She would become pregnant, keep it a complete secret from everyone in her life, never seek any medical help during the pregnancy and then eventually find a different clinic, hospital or organisation

to help her either terminate the pregnancy or adopt out the babies. And I think that later on, as the pregnancies racked up, Kelly did this to avoid there being a paper trail between the various babies and herself. But I think at the start, it's just down to something that drives, in our opinion, a lot of Kelly's actions. And that thing is shame. In any case, not shamed enough to sort her contraception out, though. And obviously, it takes two to tango.

And if you're against an abortion, get a vasectomy. They're reversible. And people can get pregnant on the pill if they're taking it correctly. It does happen. I know people it's happened to. Yeah, but five times. Five times. You would get an IUD, babes.

Yeah, and this is the thing. It's like, yes, it takes two to tango, but like, Kelly, you're the one having to live with the consequences of this again and again. So you've got to protect yourself. Come on. Like, what are we going to do? Let's have a plan.

Yeah. And the thing that is really interesting is like, I've never been through this, right? But I assume that if you go in, especially she's 17, the first time she goes in, she's on her own turns up to have an abortion the very first time. I'm guessing that the people at the abortion clinic are gonna like give you a chat, they're gonna give you some options for some contraceptive that's maybe not just the pill, because you've you've clearly, you know, had some difficulties with that. I'm just like, how in all of these times has that not stuck with her?

I don't know. But I do think there is more psychologically going on, but we're going to come on to that in next week's episode. But I think it is, the shame is a big factor for her. It drives her. But I don't know why it doesn't extend to her just not getting herself in this situation. We're going to talk about it. In any case, the thing to note is, wherever she went with regards to her just not getting herself in this situation. We're going to talk about it. In any case, the thing to note is wherever she went with regards to her pregnancies,

Kelly Lane would always give fake details. And this becomes very important as we move through the story. But for now, let's go back to 1994 and Kelly's second termination. Given that she was 20 weeks along, it wouldn't have been an easy procedure for Kelly to have gone through. I don't know how graphic we need to get about this, but obviously the further along you are in your pregnancy, the more invasive the termination procedure becomes. And Kelly herself later said that this termination was extremely traumatic.

But after it was over, she went home and still kept the whole thing a secret and tried to move on with her life. It was then that she met a new guy, Paul. They met at the local rugby club and hit it off straight away. And three months later, by May 1994, Kelly was pregnant again. We're going to say that line so many times, so many times over the course of these next two episodes, but yeah, this is now her third pregnancy in two years. And so again, Kelly hid the pregnancy from Paul and things weren't really working out with him anyway. And soon Kelly, still pregnant with Paul's baby,

started a new relationship with a guy named Duncan Gillies. Again, Kelly had met Duncan through the local rugby team. And just to add more drama to the mix, he was actually teammates with Paul. So at this point, Kelly was in a sexually active relationship with Duncan, but she was also still sleeping with Paul, and she was pregnant and getting more pregnant by the day. And apparently, neither of them noticed. How? How?

Well, I was talking to my sister about this this morning. And apparently, obviously, we're all familiar with the fantastic production that is I Didn't Know I Was Pregnant. But apparently, tall, athletic women, which Kelly is, apparently, and this is just from my sister so i don't know i'm going to research it before next week and i'll i'll answer my own question next week but apparently in tall women babies can sometimes like you know when you pick up a cat and they go really long apparently babies in tall women can lie like that like uh because they've got more space they just stretch themselves out because they're taller torsoed I think so so I think obviously it's incredibly rare but not impossible for there to be almost no external

signs it is very possible and the thing is obviously Kelly wasn't documenting her baby bump growth there's no like there's photos of her during her pregnancy but she's like you know she's she's hunched over she She's wearing a baggy top. We can't tell. We don't know how she was carrying these pregnancies. In the documentary Exposed, they interview her mum quite a bit. So basically, if you haven't watched the documentary, I would definitely urge you to go check it out. They are very much leaning on the side that Kelly is not guilty.

And that's very much their narrative. But they're talking to Kelly's mum. And Kelly's mum is Sandy Lane. And that's their that's very much their narrative. But like they're talking to Kelly's mum and Kelly's mum is Sandy Lane is a character. I really don't know how else to describe her. She's incredibly abrasive. She's incredibly flippant. I do understand that she's, you know, her daughter's going through this and she's just a bit defensive. But I'm also like, these people are here to help your daughter. Like that's why they're making this documentary. And her mum is like, well, look, because she's very defensive about the fact that she didn't know because kelly's living at home with her parents right and they're like how did you not know and

they're saying it to be like give a reasonable explanation we're not attacking you give a reasonable explanation for how you didn't know and her mom is like well she didn't carry it like all those she's essentially saying she didn't carry it like all those other ugly girls who were like out here and like stretched out and you can see she carried it very well and that's how i didn't carry it like all those she's essentially saying she didn't carry it like all those other ugly girls who were like out here and like stretched out and you can see she carried it very well and that's how I didn't know and the fashion at the time was to wear baggy clothes and like I didn't know and then when they like ask her again later they're like are we going to have to go over every detail and I'm like oh my god lady like you're not yes it's a documentary what did you think this is but yeah we don't know how Kelly carried it.

But I still find it hard to believe because I feel like also, I've never been pregnant. But possibly other parts of your body also change. Not just the belly. But apparently no one noticed. Apparently these men didn't notice. Well, yes. I mean, maybe they didn't notice. But also, like, are are you gonna tell your girlfriend

that like she's looking a bit porky how do you bring that up especially if you've only been together for like four months be like oh your boobs look different yeah no fair enough fair enough I'm just like no it's baffling yeah it's baffling and like she carries multiple pregnancies so like I think there are ones later down the line where people definitely noticed but apparently with this one people didn't notice at this point, or at least these men slash boys didn't notice. Something else worth bringing up at this point as well is the notion of cryptic pregnancies. I hadn't come across this term before we started doing the research on this particular episode, but it's really quite interesting. And apparently there are two different types of cryptic pregnancy. One is a concealed pregnancy and the other is a denial pregnancy. So in a

concealed pregnancy as the name very much suggests the woman knows that she is pregnant but she chooses to hide it from everyone else. In a denial pregnancy the woman herself doesn't sort of intellectually know or logically know or at least can't or won't accept that she is pregnant. So there is sort of like a lack of conscious acknowledgement that she's pregnant. And apparently this type of denial pregnancy can usually be linked to various factors such as a mental illness or a psychiatric condition. And it is exceedingly rare. It's interesting, isn't it because like I'm sure there are situations where periods can continue throughout pregnancy but like

also if period chat if you don't like it suck it up. Neither of us have them but I wouldn't know. I don't have them. In theory I could possibly not know for months. Yeah I don't know yeah absolutely and I'm these days I'm quite bloated a lot of the time so like I just don't know. Yeah, absolutely. And these days I'm quite bloated a lot of the time. So like, I just wouldn't know. But luckily, we've got God's contraception, which is celibacy. Which is bloating, a lockdown and celibacy. Hooray! Oh my God. Did you see that lady on social media who made the t-shirt California God's Own Graveyard? I loved it. After we said it in like some episode and that's like, yeah, lockdown. God's own contraceptive. There you go. Every time I get a new notification from Hinge, I'm like, come on, Hinge, what's the point? What's the point? Just fucking go on break. Yeah.

You're on summer holidays. Exactly. Let's all just be on summer holidays. In the dark, in the depth of winter. Yeah. Even better. So what's interesting about Kelly is that she was not in denial. She knew she was pregnant.

So her pregnant were concealment pregnancies. And we know that Kelly knew because Kelly always had her pregnant were concealment pregnancies and we know that kelly knew because kelly always had her pregnancies confirmed by a doctor and later she said that she actively tried to hide her pregnancies again like denial pregnancies repeated concealment pregnancies are very rare and so now pregnant for the third time, Kelly tried as much as possible to carry on as normal. Again, we'll see that this is typical of Kelly's behaviour during her pregnancies. And the baggy clothes aren't quite enough. Kelly carried on partying, drinking, going out with her friends

and continued all of her water polo training and she felt that any deviation from her usual plans would raise questions. Questions that she did not want to face. Water polo is no fucking joke. It's not like croquet. Like, it is hardcore. It is so fucking hardcore. Like, it's just super, super rough.

It's incredibly demanding. And I didn't know really anything about water polo before we did the research on this. But did you know the pool that they play in is so deep you can't touch the floor? Like you can't touch the floor for the entire game. So you're treading water. It's the rules. For the entire time. I did not know that.

That's fucking outrageous. That is so hard to do. Like I would just drown. That's all that would happen. That's so much. So like they're treading water the entire time. And it's so much. So like they're treading water the entire time and it's super physical. Like apparently the players like grab and scratch and push and shove and drag each other around.

Like it's super fucking intense. Like she's so pregnant. She's so pregnant and she carries on. Harvard is the oldest and richest university in America. But when a social media fueled fight over Harvard and its new president broke out last fall, that was no protection. Claudian Gay is now gone. We've exposed the DEI regime, and there's much more to come. This is The Harvard Plan, a special series from the Boston Globe and WNYC's On the Media. To listen, subscribe to On the Media wherever you get your podcasts.

You don't believe in ghosts? I get it. Lots of people don't. I didn't either until I came face to face with them. Ever since that moment, hauntings, spirits, and the unexplained have consumed my entire life. I'm Nadine Bailey. I've been a ghost tour guide for the past 20 years. I've taken people along with me into the shadows,

uncovering the macabre tales that linger in the darkness. And inside some of the most haunted houses, hospitals, prisons, and more. Join me every week on my podcast, Haunted Canada, as we journey through terrifying and bone-chilling stories of the unexplained. Search for Haunted Canada on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you find your favourite podcasts. Another reason for the concealment, apart from drawing attention to herself, is I think that Kelly this time around desperately wanted to not rock the boat with her new boyfriend, Duncan. Duncan was a rising rugby star on the manly scene

and he was known around town as a bit of a hot shot. But saying that, she does carry on sleeping with Paul. So she's not able to keep the boat totally still. They're on the same fucking team. It's like John Terry and what's his name? Do you know what I'm talking about? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. John Terry and...

So if you don't know what we're talking about, I've just remembered the other player's name. So John Terry and Wayne Bridge are two Premier League football players. And John Terry slept with Wayne Bridge's wife. And there is a very famous, they play each other in the Premier League and John Terry refuses to shake his hand, which is unheard of. Like, it's electric television, honestly. And they weren't even playing for the same team.

And they knew about it. No, but these two. Playing with fire absolutely so yeah we know Kelly kept sleeping with Paul and Duncan at the same time um she doesn't really seem to think through the consequences of her actions particularly a lot because her and Paul got caught multiple times and again I know it takes two to tango but like Kelly is the one that has the most to lose in this situation that she's a part of. And I feel like it's really indicative of like her lack of paying attention to the consequences of her actions, you know? But yeah, apparently this is happening.

They would just like get drunk and she would get off with Paul outside the pub while Duncan's still inside. And I'm like, whoa, okay. And I think this is an unavoidable part of this particular case. I think a lot of places that you read about this story or listen to this story, especially like some news media channels and stuff like that, they get slammed for slut shaming Kelly. And some of them definitely are slut shaming her. There is no doubt about it. But I do think that we have to acknowledge that she definitely struggled with self-destructive behaviors, especially when it came to romantic relationships. I'm not saying, oh, my God, you dirty slut, because you're like, you know, sleeping with Paul and sleeping with Duncan, having an affair with this married man and doing this, like, whatever.

But she's like destructing her own life by these actions and making herself unhappy with them. And I think that is something that we do have to point out. And some of her friends do acknowledge this. But a lot of her friends who have spoken to documentaries and stuff since all call her like a serial monogamist. And I listened to that. And I'm like, okay, but she does seem to cheat a lot. So can you call her a monogamist? I don't know. I get what they're trying to say. I think what they're trying to say is that Kelly really liked being in a relationship. And I think that that is true. But I don't think she seems to have been able to have been loyal or consistent with one person in the way that would be most conducive to a happy relationship. And I'm only bringing this up really because I do think it fits a pattern with Kelly's behavior. But I also do

think that it importantly shows that her friends are willing to whitewash the facts because they all know what she was doing. And I think that they're willing to say things or whitewash the facts to make Kelly look better. And I do think that is an important fact to bear in mind when you watch them speaking about her. And by early 1995, Kelly was now six months pregnant and still playing water polo. Apparently, she trained a few times a week.

And this is just so crazy for me, not just because we talked about, you know, how rough water polo is, but they're not just like at the beach having a paddle about. She's playing like league level. So there are coaches watching. There are coaches at the pool. And she was six months pregnant and they say now those coaches say now that they had no idea but the other girls the other teenage girls playing said that they all knew so you're telling me that a bunch of teenage girls noticed that Kelly was

heavily pregnant but these grown adult coaches didn't. And the excuse for how, like, Kelly managed to hide this, because she's in a fucking swimming costume, six months pregnant, right? And they say that she managed to hide it from them because she'd wear a towel around her midriff when she came out of the changing rooms, and then she'd slip it off, she'd sit down on the side of the pool and then, like, wiggle her way in. And that's why they never noticed bullshit fuck off like absolute nonsense nonsense they played uh games right

against other teams and they interviewed one of those coaches and she's like i knew she was pregnant i could see she was pregnant i was like what are they doing letting this pregnant girl play so how are their coaches pretending like they didn't know? It's so baffling. I don't get it. And so at this stage, Kelly, like we said, who's six months heavily pregnant, was training regularly, still going to university, and still partying. And like we also mentioned earlier, she was known as a very heavy drinker, even amongst the water polo girls, who by all accounts were a fucking rowdy bunch in fact kelly's nickname was keg on legs so she had a reputation for the drinking and uh yeah like i don't know i i honestly don't know how she kept playing water polo while being this pregnant like

it blows my mind she's determined that's for sure. So as we said, water polo, absolutely no fucking joke. In fact, a friend of Kelly's that Kelly made play water polo once said she got out of the pool covered in scratches and bruises with her swimming costume torn and she never played again. I have played water polo a couple of times. Really? Oh, I didn't know that. Yeah, because we had a lot of Australian PE teachers at my school. And so I am drastically terrible at sport. And my school was a very sporty and very posh school. So like a lot of the England lacrosse squad went to my school. Like sport is a very big deal.

So if you are not very good at sport in year nine they section you out of games lessons into like the you can't play sport class because we slow down the overachievement so then instead of doing lacrosse or netball or whatever I was actually really good at netball but um because I was so terrible at lacrosse it wasn't um it wasn't allowed so it's like being in sets one two and three for maths but for something that's not very important i see so in these uh lessons when the kids who were good at sport were playing lacrosse and netball we would be doing like ludo yes literally and sometimes water polo i think i did a lifeguard course at one particular stage i did first aid you know we just did that so you can be the helpers

if something goes wrong with the other kids are playing you can play board games and learn first aid yeah literally that literally that just doing drills carrying fucking gurneys around I love it that's so funny yeah so in one of the we played water polo a few times, which was hell on earth, honestly. It was real. It sounds like it. Fucking hell. Someone's throwing a massive heavy ball at me while I have to tread water. And then someone else tears my swing costume off. No fucking thanks. I mean, there was no tearing because being in that particular group of sports meant that none of us cared at all.

It just meant we had to tread water for about an hour. Oh, my God, that is amazing. I love it. So you don't need to be a seasoned baby haver or attend the Baby Having Guild Christmas dinner to know that heavy drinking and extreme physical exertion are not the best things to do during pregnancy particularly later on actually actually just don't drink at all and it's possible a few people have the theory that this behavior was an attempt to miscarry and that does sort of make sense um Problem Child the podcast series uh on this particular case spoke to a gynecologist who worked in Sydney at the time. And he said that there were only three clinics in the city that would have given an abortion without a doctor's reference.

And Kelly had already been to all three. So I can believe that she didn't want to go back. Yeah, because although she's only had two terminations at this point, if you remember, she went to one of them and they said that they couldn't do it. So she had to go to another one. So she's been to all three. They have her name on file at all three.

So I think she's just like, the shame, the shame thing again. She doesn't want to go back to them. So I can believe, yeah, that she's trying to possibly terminate the pregnancy in a more passive way without her actively having to get on that ferry and go do it herself again. Exactly. So she just carried on. And on the 18th of March, 1999, just days before her 20th birthday, and also just days away from her due date,

Kelly played in the finals of a water polo tournament in Balmain. After the game, the team, including Kelly, went out on the lash. But her friends noticed that at 10pm, Kelly vanished. That wasn't like her at all, so it stood out. But Kelly hadn't got much choice her waters had broken and she'd gone into labor at the pub so she had quietly slipped out and taken herself off to hospital it's so nightmarish like what's happening oh 100 apparently my mum went into labor with me when she was at a wedding. Oh, God.

Because I was like 10 days late or some shit. So she was like, when she agreed to go to this wedding, she thought that I would already exist, but I was taking my time. So she was like sat there, like digging my dad in the ribs, being like, we need to go now. And it was obviously a Catholic wedding, which are so fucking long. I had to get up and leave. Oh my God, that is so traumatic.

I feel like if I ever get pregnant, I'm going to be like, the month before I'm due, we're just going to be like, we just have to sit outside the hospital. We're going to sit in the car park outside the hospital, just in case. So when Kelly made it to the hospital from the pub, just like she had done with the terminations, Kelly lied to the staff about absolutely almost everything. She told them that she was from Perth, which she wasn't.

She said that she was just in Sydney for a few days and had gone into labour. She also told them that her doctor and her gynaecologist were back in Perth, again also a lie. Kelly hadn't been to a doctor once during her entire pregnancy, except for when she had it confirmed. And again, Kelly gave fake contact details and made up an address in Perth. Perth is fucking miles away from Sydney. Like, it is, like, days, days, days driving. Yeah. Every lie that she tells, and we will come onto this later,

she lies, like, on something that just recently happened or someone that she knows or someone she's just met. So she's lying and saying it's in Perth because they had, like, gone to a water polo tournament there a few months back and she's just thinking about Perth. So she says she's from there and possibly because she's been there, she knows a street name that she can convincingly reel off. She's very like, she doesn't just pull stuff out of nowhere, which again becomes very important later. Kelly also filled out the form stating that Duncan Gillies was the father,

even though she was pretty sure Paul was actually the father. So the following day on the 19th of March 1999, Kelly gave birth to a baby girl. And the hospital were, I would say, probably rightly quite on edge about Kelly anyway. She looked so young and she was also all alone. Not one person came to visit her there wasn't one phone call there wasn't anything ever that came because she says everyone's back in perth i was here on my own for some reason around about my delivery time and i went into labor on my own which in and of itself doesn't really make much sense but they especially started to worry when kelly started to freak out soon after the baby was born. Because remember, this is her first live baby that she's delivered.

She's been pregnant three times, but the first two were terminations. So the hospital called in a social worker. And Kelly told this social worker that she wanted to put this baby up for adoption as soon as possible. She said it was because she was a water polo player who was going to go to the Olympics. And so this social worker asked Kelly to choose an adoption agency and they started the ball rolling. Kelly also told the social worker that she really needed to leave the hospital the following day without the baby. She said that she would come back but that she just needed one day out. And she said that this was so she could go and speak to the baby's father about the adoption. This was,

according to the hospital, highly unusual. They don't normally let people do this. But the next day, they agreed and gave Kelly a day pass out, and they kept the baby in the hospital nursery. But, of course, Kelly wasn't going to discuss any adoption business with either Duncan or Paul. It was her 20th birthday, and Kelly had a party to get to. And so now having successfully had the baby in total secrecy, Kelly needed this adoption to happen fast. But I don't

think that she realized at all just how hard this process was going to be. On the 3rd of April 1995, Kelly made her first visit to the adoption center. And I genuinely think she thinks that she'll just go over, sign a few papers, tell them a few stories, and that they'll just take the baby and she can go back to her life. But immediately things started to go wrong. The agency were adamant that Duncan, who, like we said, Kelly had listed as the baby's dad, had to come and sign some papers. Like, obviously, if they're saying that we know who the biological father is, obviously they're saying the biological father has to sign away, you know, has to sign consent, has to give consent for this baby to be adopted.

But Kelly repeatedly tried to convince them that Duncan and her had actually now broken up and that he didn't want to be involved in any way. The agency did their best to try and find Duncan and contact him, but Kelly had given them all of his wrong details, all of his wrong addresses, everything, and they got nowhere. And Kelly just kept insisting that she couldn't help them because they weren't speaking anymore and that he didn't want to be involved. So this basically plays out like this for 14 months. And eventually after this, baby number one was finally adopted but before this adoption was finalized towards the

end of 1995 Kelly was pregnant again I feel like I would have so much more of an understanding of this case if I had like a fly on the wall moment when she finds out she's pregnant again I want to know what that reaction in her is is it like oh my oh my God, I cannot believe I've done this again? Or is it like, oh, well, like, I don't know. I need to know that. And I don't. And that's why I'm having trouble, I think. I really, really, I wish I could tell you.

I have spent the whole of last week, including this weekend, immersed in this case, reading and watching and listening to everything I could possibly find. In the exposed documentary, Kelly is involved. She's speaking on the phone. She's speaking on the phone she's speaking on the phone to them so like she's there to tell her story and she still says i don't know why i did it i don't know what i was doing so she can't even tell us what her feelings were about this it is utterly baffling hannah and i on this show we spend a lot of our time trying to

understand the motivations of people who commit some of the most extremes of human behavior i do not understand this i really don't baffled this time time number four it's very difficult to know who the baby's dad is because kelly really fudges the date and it's generally just very confusing because although she and duncan were still together she admitted to sleeping with other men on nights out. During this pregnancy, just like the last time, Kelly carried on as normal. She kept partying, going to school and having sex with Duncan. She also had a brief fling with a man called Corey, who was an Ironman champion.

She likes him fit. Yeah, I feel like that's such an unnecessary detail, but I watched a documentary. He's in there talking about it, and it just says, Corey, whatever his surname is, Ironman champion. I was like, all right. All right. Fair enough. All right. It's all right.

Yeah. She really likes the sporty guys. I almost feel like there's a weird thing with Kelly of like, not a status thing necessarily, but maybe a bit like she likes guys who are champions. She she's I'm not gonna say obsessed with Duncan Gillies, but Duncan Gillies is out of her life, like reasonably halfway through this whole situation but he is a constant name that pops up again and again and again out of Kelly's mouth I think it's because he was seen as a bit of a stud he was seen as a bit of like the most desirable bachelor if you will can you call a teenager a

bachelor you know what I mean like the young guy on town that everybody wants you know big dick on campus whatever it is and uh i think that's what that's what motivates her that's what drives her towards these guys but it still doesn't explain the pregnancies i do not get that at all and she's not doing it to try and trap anybody because she never fucking tells anybody so it's not even that but and no she never tells anyone and yet again everyone is claiming in the documentary they have no idea kelly was pregnant but i just don't i just don't believe that i know and we are backed up on that because some of kelly's old friends did know and apparently rumors were circulating and everyone was talking about this behind Kelly's back and her friends now

say that they desperately wish that they'd spoken to her about it some fucking friends I cannot imagine any single one of like my friends if I like spotted that they looked a bit pregs I would have a word I would not ignore that I know it's it's again it's another thing that is very baffling it's Kelly's behavior but it's also thing that is very baffling. It's Kelly's behaviour, but it's also everyone else's behaviour around her that enabled all of these weird things to happen. Honestly, there's been so many times, not so many times, but there have been times where my friends are just feeling a bit weird or like having a bit of a vom. And I'm always just like, well, let's just do two pregnancy tests just to rule it out. That's my first port of call.

Exactly. Absolutely. Let's just check. Better safe than pregnant. Let's know. Let's have it. We on the stick. Exactly. Yeah. And always do two tests, ladies.

One is not enough. Be sure. Absolutely. Sponsored by Clearblue. Be safe. Be sure. Don't be pregnant. So they, the friends, get around this total lack of being there for Kelly

by saying that she was very combative. And if you tried to talk to her about anything, she'd become very defensive and push you away. So she obviously doesn't want to talk about it. And I do think it's interesting because in the podcast, they make a good point. So if you guys haven't listened to the Problem Child podcast on the Kelly Lane case, I would definitely recommend it.

It's very much erring on the side that she absolutely did do everything that she becomes accused of. Go listen to it it they've done very good research on it and in there they make a good point that kelly in the documentary says when her friends say you know that they wish that they desperately spoken to her about it she says yeah no one was there for me no one asked me not one person cared to ask me her friends are like but you were so like prone to rages if we ever crossed a line with her. So we kind of feel like she doesn't, she doesn't take a lot of responsibility. She kind of does like to blame other people. It's like her friend's fault for not asking. And I'm like, but Kelly,

like you could have told them, you know, I don't know. It's hard because we don't know them. So it's hard to know like the actual dynamics of the group. But, yeah, interesting to point out that she does like to shift the blame a bit. By September 1996, Kelly was almost full term and she was starting to get worried. During the later stages of her pregnancies, Kelly would often step back from social activities. But this time, she had a wedding of a close friend coming up. She knew that if she wasn't there or if she turned up heavily pregnant,

the jig would be up. And so, with the wedding set for the third week of September, Kelly decided that although she wasn't due yet, she needed to give birth the weekend before so that she would have a week to recover and get the adoption process started. So what we're starting to see here is like Kelly literally managing this pregnancy like a logistical plan. She's like, I've got this wedding to get to. If I have the baby a week before, gives me some time to sort some shit out. Get back into that dress I want to wear to the wedding. Bing, bang, bong.

You know, she's like thinking about it so like logistically. Bing, bang, baby. Bing, bang, baby. That should just be the name of this episode. Kelly Lane. Bing, bang, baby. that should just be the name of this episode kelly lane bing gang baby so as kelly always did she got in her own car and she drove herself to ride hospital now ride hospital is a different hospital to the one that she used with baby number one because like we know kelly doesn't like going back to the same hospital the same clinic or

the same organization she likes to keep them separate and my understanding is possibly and i'm going i have asked my australian friend to give me all the details on this and she's going to get back to me we'll have it in time for next week's episode but i believe that it's somewhat like the american system in that if you go to different hospitals i don't think your files like follow you around so if you go to a different place and just tell them whatever the fuck you want they're just gonna have to take your story as a fact so she goes to ride hospital on saturday morning to be induced once again kelly gave a fake address fake numbers and fake details about her partner but when this hospital found out that kelly was only 38 weeks pregnant because obviously they were going to do like a scan, a check before they just induced her

and given that a normal pregnancy can be anywhere between 37 weeks and 42 weeks, they decided that she wasn't ready to be induced and they sent her back home. But Kelly had that wedding to get to and she wasn't about to give up. And so three days later she went back to Wright Hospital begging for the induction. She now said that she was in serious back pain and just begged them to do it. But once again, they said no. So Kelly decided this hospital isn't going to give me what I want. They're not going to play ball.

So she picked a different hospital and rocked up now saying that she was actually weeks overdue, even though we know that she's absolutely not. And she said that she was in agony and that she needed to be induced and obviously this is a lie because Tegan who she is pregnant with at this point wasn't due until the end of September and the way that Kelly manages to like get them to not even do an ultrasound or a scan she says that she was going to have a home birth and she said that her midwife was going to turn up any minute with the scans, with all of the plans, everything. They just needed to induce her because she's in so much pain. And somehow

she managed to convince the hospital to induce her. And on the 12th of September 1996, Kelly Lane was induced. And just hours later she gave birth to another baby girl, Tegan Lee Lane. But this time Kelly suffered a complication, something called placenta accreta. Now I didn't actually know what this was before but according to the Mayo Clinic, placenta accreta is a serious pregnancy condition that occurs when the placenta grows too deeply into the uterine wall. Typically the placenta detaches from the uterine wall after childbirth but with placenta accreta part or all of the placenta remains attached. So Kelly had to have an operation to have it removed. During this like entire ordeal Kelly lost a litre of blood and the hospital noticed when they removed her placenta that it was calcified and there are various reasons

that this can happen like the baby being um like various reasons that this can happen but one of the reasons can be heavy drinking during pregnancy and i think with kelly that's probably what it was i know people who've had this placenta accreta thing and it is fucking horrible like you are so ill because like if you think about it it's like it's dead tissue inside you that you can't get out and it's rotting right like it is it makes you so fucking ill like it's serious fucking business i can't i just find it so difficult to talk about all that kind of stuff because i've got endo you guys know like i've talked about it before on the show and have you seen that body form ad that it's like period horror stories and it's like showing all these

like it's just snapping between shots and videos of like various things and one of them is of a girl who's clearly had a laparoscopy and she's peeling the plasters back and showing like where the incision was and I was like that's what I had and I like have the scars of it and honestly it just makes me double over because I feel like that part of my body is so just it's like too much I can't cope with this and so when I was reading about placenta accreta I was like no no no no thanks no thank you and she's not even doing this to keep the babies that's what the weirdest thing is that she's putting herself through this to not even have the baby at the end which is what I don't understand um also one of my friends

recently told me that she's gonna eat her placenta after she gives birth. No, no. Yep. No. Yep. And she said it in such. Who was it? It's Danielle.

I'm just going to say it because she deserves to. Danielle. People to dare. Yep. And she said it in such a casual way. She was like, oh, would you not? Fuck, fuck, no. And Danielle is like basically a vegan. And I was was like so you'll eat your own tissue oh no no no no no no uh ladies have any of you eaten your placentas I would really like to know

how common is this oh I don't care how much fucking iron is in there chuck it in the bin if there's a whole iron man in, I'm still not fucking eating it. Exactly. I've got some fucking Ferroglobin. I'm fine. Chuck it in the bin. I don't want it. Just keep it in a little Tupperware box in your fridge.

Oh my God. I can't. Someone I know who gave birth recently had fibroids and she gave birth to her son. And then the fibroid that was bigger than the baby. I've seen a picture of it in a bucket it's fucking huge I've collapsed I'm on the floor she actually she fully turned away I can't video camera I can't I can't oh my god oh just too much it was like when I first found out I had endos because I was like taken to A&E. The cyst was six inches big that was inside me.

And I was like, six inches? That's like fucking that inside me. What sort of fruit is that? I don't know. A mango. Oh my God, gross. Jesus. Anyway, let's get off this topic

before I fucking have a hot flash and pass out. Let's move on before Cerruti passes out. Okay, Kelly. In Kelly's ideal world, which is obviously a fantasy land, Kelly wanted to adopt out baby Teagan like the previous baby, but she also knew that it would take way too long for her to deal with all of that right now because she's already done it once. And presumably we don't know the name of baby number three because of legal

reasons because it is it is alive and living a life yep so kelly in classic kelly style had not made any plans or even spoken to an adoption agency yet and she knew that if she started that process she'd be tied up for days filing out paperwork and speaking to social workers. And her friend's wedding was the very next day. And she'd already promised to meet Duncan at her parents' house in Fairlight at 3pm. So she needed to get out of that hospital pretty sharpish. So on the 14th of September, she got the midwives to start the process of her discharge. She didn't have a choice this time. She'd have to take baby Teagan with her. And this next bit becomes a very contentious part of the entire case, so pin back your ears.

Kelly Lane said that she filled out all of the forms and the doctors and the nurses did their relevant checks and she left after being officially signed out. Her story about what happened immediately after changes a few times so let's just focus on what we know for sure. Kelly left the hospital on the 14th of September. She stopped at Duncan's house to pick up some clothes and then by 3pm she was in Fairlight at her parents' house ready to meet Duncan. They got dressed together and went to the wedding. Kelly's seen on the wedding videos and in photographs and it looks like she got there at about four o'clock in the afternoon. At the wedding Kelly looks calm, she looks happy and

she's casually joking about it doesn't really look like someone who's just had a major fucking surgical procedure. No and guys in case you've like not kept up with the dates she has baby Teagan on the 12th. This is on the 14th. Two days after giving birth and having fucking surgery. She's here. And not only is she here, she's wearing a white suit. That is fucking brave. Right. Let's discuss this. Firstly, wearing white after all the things that have happened, but also can you wear white suits to a wedding? Is that allowed? I don't know. I don't think I've been to enough. It's, I mean, it's not far off turning up in a fucking wedding dress, honestly.

You can't wear white to someone else's wedding. You just can't. That's what I mean. That's what I mean. Why is she wearing white at this wedding? Also, she's just had a gynecological surgery. Oh, God. Where's she lost a litre of blood. You cannot be okay yet, Kelly. You can't.

It's impossible that she is okay. But this is what she was willing to put herself through to maintain the facade. Because in the documentary where she's talking about it, she's like, I had already been avoiding Duncan for a few days before because she because fucking about to give birth. And she's like, and my parents were at this wedding and everyone who knows everyone is at this wedding. And if I wasn't there, I turned up pregnant.

Everyone would know. So it's like she is willing to get herself out of a hospital, get herself showered, dressed, makeup on at this wedding just so no one would know. It is wild. I'm amazed she can even walk, to be honest. Oh, I think I will be probably on bedrest for a year before and after I have a baby, if that ever happens. Like, there's just no chance. But Kelly pulls it off because no one was any the wiser. And as far as we know, nobody ever saw Tegan Lee Lane ever again. So after this, again, Kelly tried to carry on with her life as normal. A few weeks after Tegan's birth, Kelly even started working as a coach and PE teacher at a very prestigious girls' school called Ravenswood.

Something worth mentioning here is that Kelly lied pretty seriously to get this job. She claimed to have a degree, even though she'd never finished university. And when she fills in her degree on the CV to give them, she even gives herself like honours. She goes like, well, above and beyond the lie for someone who doesn't even have the qualification she's claiming to. And she also didn't have any teaching qualifications, even though she gave herself, again, outstanding credentials on her CV. But if things were looking up now that, you know, the babies are done, the babies are gone, whatever has happened to Tegan, she's got this great new job, things weren't going to last long. Because in early 1998, Duncan Gillies broke up with Kelly.

And despite training hard for it, later that year, Kelly also missed out on the opportunity to be selected for the Australian female water polo Olympics team. Sydney was going to have the Olympics, and it was going to be the first time ever that women's water polo was going to be included. So it's like, it's the one, isn't it, if you're an Australian water polo, female Australian water polo player, but she doesn't get picked. And so it was in 1998, with her national dreams of water polo gone and Duncan gone, a 24-year-old Kelly started another relationship with a man named Adam Howard. And you get absolutely no prizes for guessing what I'm about to say next. Because within months, by August that year, Kelly was pregnant for the fifth time. I've shocked myself and I knew I was going to say that.

But her and Adam didn't last and they broke up soon after. And again, of course, she never told him or anyone about the pregnancy. In February 1999, Kelly went to an abortion clinic in Brisbane, which is like, I looked it up, it's about an hour's flight from Sydney. So this point, she's like, used up all of the abortion clinics in Sydney. She can't use the ones more local. So she gets on a flight and goes to Brisbane in order to have an abortion, just so she doesn't have to face the same clinic people again. At this clinic, however, they discovered that she was 25 weeks pregnant. This is the other thing. If she knows she's going to have an abortion, why does she wait so long? This is the other thing that I don't understand, because we know that she finds out quite early on.

She always gets it confirmed by a doctor, but she always waits until it's like so difficult for her to have it done. So yeah, they find out she's 25 weeks pregnant and they refuse to give her an abortion. And so Kelly had to just come home. And she had a choice now. She could go back to the abortion clinic in Sydney that had performed the termination on her a few years back. Because remember, back then she was around the same length of pregnancy. So she knows that there is an abortion clinic in Sydney that would have given her the termination at 25 weeks. But Kelly just didn't want to go back there. She didn't want them to know that she was pregnant again. So she just stayed pregnant and carried on as normal. And again,

just like with Tegan, Kelly didn't arrange anything for an adoption. In May 1999, Kelly went to the Wright Hospital and gave birth to a baby boy. And remember, she's going back to the Wright Hospital because she didn't actually give birth there to Tegan. She went there twice trying to get induced, but they turned her away. So she thinks it's okay to go there to give birth to this baby. And then the following day, after this baby boy was born Kelly made contact with an adoption agency but Kelly had made a huge mistake because like we said if you remember Kelly went to ride twice to

get herself induced when she was pregnant with Tegan and eventually went somewhere else because they wouldn't do it but because she had been there trying to get induced, there were files on record at Ride Hospital of those visits. And I think Kelly didn't think that that was going to be the case. And now they also had records of this birth. The third baby had been delivered at Ride and now these records of this baby's birth were attached to the file all in Kelly's name that included that a few years back she had been there trying to get induced for another baby. Everyone with me? Cool. So when they asked her about the other baby, because, you know, she turns up and they're like, oh, we saw you came here before to try to get induced. What's happened to that baby? She's like,

oh, yeah, that baby's fine. It's at home. Obviously, this is a lie. Once again, Kelly gave fake details and contacts. She said that Duncan Gillies was the dad, even though she wouldn't have seen him in months by the time she even conceived this baby. And then she left the hospital and the baby was put into foster care. This adoption agency now tried desperately to contact Duncan Gillies with absolutely no luck. Kelly lied and lied and lied about where he was, saying that he was overseas in London and that she didn't have any contact with him. She also said that he was becoming abusive and angry and if the agency kept trying to contact him, it would just get worse. So she begged the adoption agency to just leave him out of it. Again,

all of this, total lie. She knows exactly where he is and she hasn't seen him in ages. The adoption agency eventually stopped being able to even reach Kelly. When she repeatedly failed to answer their calls, they went to the address she had given them. It was Duncan's old place, and the new tenants living there said they didn't know Kelly and that she certainly didn't live there. And so by July 1999, the adoption agency had had enough,

and they called the DOCS, the Department of Community Services, which if you've seen the Babadook, that's the people who show up at the door when the kid doesn't go to school. So before anybody tells us, I know that people still refer to it as docs, but the name of the department has actually changed. But this is how they refer to it in all of the stuff. So that's what we're going to stick to. And Kelly's case was given to a social worker named John Borovnik. And John, in our opinion, is the real fucking MVP of this entire situation. If it hadn't have been for him,

Tegan Lane may never have been flagged as a missing person. But before we move forward, let's go over the timelines of Kelly's pregnancies again very swiftly. One, in 1992, at the age of 17, Kelly has a termination. Two years after that, in 1994, at the age of 18, she has another termination. Two years after that, in 1994, at the age of 18, she has another termination. Three, in 1995, at 19, she had baby number one. This baby was a girl and she was adopted. And because it's going to get a bit confusing now, let's decide to call this baby

Claire. Four, in 1996, at 21, Kelly had baby Tegan and she is at this point unaccounted for. Five, then in 1999 at the age of 24, Kelly has her third baby. She tries to get this baby adopted. This baby was also a boy and again we don't know his real name so we're going to call him Philip. So when John was given this case, he was a super inexperienced social worker. He'd actually only been in his new position for two weeks. But he spotted almost immediately that something was very wrong here. So John's first move was to call Wright Hospital in Sydney, where Kelly's son Philip, the one who had just been born

and that she was trying to have adopted, was delivered. During this call, the hospital also asked John about Kelly's visits in 1996, when she had been trying to get induced. They asked John if he knew that in 1996 Kelly had been 40 weeks pregnant. He did not. So John then rang Doc's adoption branch to find out if the caseworker had any information about the baby that had been born in 1996. So this would have obviously been Tegan.

To which the caseworker had said, quote, oh, are you talking about the baby in 1995? Which would have been Kelly's first baby girl, Claire, who was, of course, legally adopted. To which John replied, what baby in 1995? I'm talking about the baby in 1996. And the caseworker, now totally confused, said, What baby in 1996? So, with that, Hannah, do you want to give us a quick rundown of what we talked about last week in the Kelly Lane Part 1? I would love to. So

this is a two-parter. We haven't done a two-parter in a while. I know you're not used to them, but you know, change is important. We all need to get used to it. Yeah. So a rundown. Last week, we met Kelly Lane, who had five pregnancies before she was 21. Some she terminated, some she adopted out. But one, baby Tegan, we don't know where baby Tegan is. And this week, we are going to find out, kind of probably, but also not. We're just going to find out more about Kelly. Yeah, we're just going to have a good old route around in the trial, in what happens, and also the psychology of what Kelly Lane was doing.

Very quickly, though, before we do kick off with part two, a few of you were asking about the Problem Child podcast, where that is, why that is, how that is, how you get your hands on it. I think there were some litigious issues. So let's hope that doesn't happen to us and that you're still actually listening to this. But I think they got into some, maybe some difficulties with Kelly Lane's family. And that's why I think they're not available on Apple Podcast. But you can listen to the Problem Child podcast on Spotify and also, I believe, through their own website. Just Google it.

It's very easy to find. And also Exposed, the case of Kelly Lane, is on Netflix in Australia. You can also watch it if you have a VPN and just pretend that you're in Sydney, Melbourne, or I don't know, Perth. Those are the only three cities I can think of. Otherwise, it is on Amazon Prime. Only those places though. If you live in Canberra, you're fucked. No, that's it. Yeah. Oh, everyone always forgets Canberra. And that's like their big,

that's like the Washington DC there, isn't it? It's the capital. Yeah, I know. It's like the big deal. And everyone's just like, whatever. So anyway, that is, that's all the housekeeping we need to do so let's fucking kick off with this shit so we left off last week with the social worker john barovnik discovering that kelly lane had adopted out a baby girl who we named claire in 1995 if you remember claire was her first ever live birth so it's the third pregnancy first one she actually delivers and carries to term and then john also found out that ke Kelly had presented at Ryde Hospital in Sydney the following year,

so in 1996. And again, now she was 38 weeks pregnant. And Ryde Hospital told John that Kelly didn't actually have that baby there. Because if you you remember Kelly came in twice when she was pregnant with Tegan in 1996 asking to be induced because she had that wedding to get to but Ride Hospital turned her away and she ended up going to a different hospital to deliver. That meant that although Ride could confirm to John that in 1996 Kelly had been very pregnant and on the cusp of giving birth, they couldn't confirm that that pregnancy had definitely led to a live birth or what happened to that baby after. So what sparked the hospital and John's interest about this specific incident was that when Kelly had turned up at Wright asking to be induced, she claimed that this was her first baby. But John knew that this wasn't the case,

because he knew that she'd already had a baby, Claire, in 1995, and given her up for adoption. So this second baby, the one that was born in 1996, according to Doc's records, had never been adopted, so either that baby must have died, and so there should be a death certificate, or that baby must still be with Kelly. Those are like the only real options. So John confronted Kelly and much to his surprise,

although she had told Ride Hospital that her last baby was just at home, she now told John that she had never even had a baby in 1996. But soon she realised this was going to be a very tough lie to maintain given that Ryde Hospital had seen her twice in 96, in the very late stages of pregnancy. She eventually told John that yes, she had had a baby girl called Tegan in September 1996. And she told John that she'd given Tegan away to a family who lived in Perth. She said that she'd met this family while she was pregnant. They had been very supportive and helped her a lot.

She knew she didn't want the baby, so she gave it to the family, knowing that they were good people. But she added that she didn't keep in contact with the family and couldn't offer any information about them quite conveniently. This is story number one that Kelly tells regarding the whereabouts of baby Tegan. And it obviously is full of holes, so it wasn't enough to placate John. So in November 1999, three years after baby Teagan vanished, John Borovnik formally reported her, Teagan Lane, as a missing person to the police. But it would be a very long time

before the police would do anything about it. It feels odd to talk about a baby as a missing person because they don't really feel like a personality, do they? Yeah, you're totally right. And I think that was what I was trying to get out with the first line of last week's episode, which is, it's technically a person that no one else has ever, or obviously not even technically, really no one else has ever met, but no one else has even had the opportunity to notice that Tegan was missing. And I think that's one of the saddest things about this case is that John Borovnik says in an interview he does with like the Sydney Herald or Bugle or something. And he's like, the reason that this case got to me so much

was the heartbreaking fact that this baby had been born and no one had ever even noticed that she was gone. And John Borovnik actually now has a tattoo of Tegan's name on his chest because he's so, like, attached to this case. Wow. And I think it's just really sad. It's really sad, the whole thing. But I was just thinking, as you were saying it, I wrote down, yes, that this is Kelly's first story.

This is story number one that Kelly tells with regards to where Tegan is. But actually, she tells the hospital because she comes in to deliver this third baby. And they're like, oh, you were here in 1996 and you were super pregnant. How's that baby? And she's like, oh, yeah, she's just at home. She's fucking not because that's Tegan. So actually, this is story number two because then she tells John, oh, no, I gave that baby away. She's just lying to everybody all the fucking time.

And what's really interesting about Kelly is she's like a compulsive liar because she doesn't need to be giving away all of this information. If she hadn't come into Ride Hospital and said, this is my first pregnancy, there wouldn't necessarily have been any eyebrows raised when John had found out that she had another baby. So she catches herself in this web. It's a web of her own making. So when John first reported Baby Teagan is missing, the local Manly Police Department didn't seem to have much appetite for this case. And it is alleged now that the detective in charge at the time, a guy named Matt Keogh, was actually mates with Kelly's dad, who, if you remember, was a police officer who worked at the same station as Matt Keogh until he retired. But it

does seem that bad police work by manly police back then doesn't seem to have been out of the norm. So with no police investigation taking shape, for Kelly at least, life carried on as usual. And in August 2000, Kelly Lane, now in a long-term relationship, fell pregnant again and got engaged. And during this pregnancy, it's interesting to note that Kelly behaved very differently to her previous five secret pregnancies. She went to every single doctor's appointment, she did all of the tests, and she totally changed her lifestyle for the better.

So, like, no more fucking keg-on-legs drinking sessions while she's pregnant with this baby. But Kelly wasn't out of the woods just yet. And finally, in February 2001, over a year after John Borovnik had reported his concerns to them, the Manly Police Department brought Kelly Lane in to be interviewed for the very first time. When asked about Tegan, Kelly now told the police yet again

an entirely different story to the one she had told John Borovnik two years prior and the one that she told the Ride Hospital staff. Now she said that she'd given her baby to the biological father, a man she called Andrew Morris. Kelly said that she and Andrew had had a very brief affair, but that he had a girlfriend the whole time. And when Kelly had discovered she was pregnant, at first Andrew was angry.

Kelly claimed that Andrew had called her a slut and said that he thought discovered she was pregnant, at first Andrew was angry. Kelly claimed that Andrew had called her a slut and said that he thought that she was trying to trap him. So Kelly suggested that Andrew just keep the baby himself, which makes no sense. And apparently Andrew's girlfriend, whose name is inverted commas Mel, really wanted a baby. So they both agreed that even though Andrew had been having an affair with Kelly, that they would just take Kelly's baby and raise it as their own. I mean, I just don't believe it. I know everyone feels differently about things, but like, if someone has, if a boy has upset me, I cannot have anything that reminds me even remotely of them in my vicinity ever again because I just

can't stand to look at it let alone a living child yeah here's a baby that you can have and raise and look at and like you know it's like you said obviously some people may be able to get past that but the thing that I find very difficult to understand is that Andrew is apparently furious at Kelly right he's angry he's livid and then she's like well why don't you just take the baby and he's like oh well why didn't you just say in that case everything's fine because you know that girlfriend I've got at home she actually really wants one of these and I just find it really hard to understand firstly the whole thing about this male character just being happy to raise a baby that her boyfriend had had with another woman while he was cheating on her

but like maybe I could believe it if they were a couple in like their late 30s or 40s, maybe. But Kelly describes Andrew as being her age. So in their early 20s, I find that very, very hard to believe. I also think it seems weird that Kelly even told Andrew because she says that she just has a brief fling with this guy like a brief affair that lasts a few months with this guy and we know from previous experiences with Kelly that apart from Aaron Tyak her very first boyfriend she got pregnant with Kelly never tells anybody so why is she telling Andrew? Good point. I find that quite strange and I guess you could say that maybe we

know that Andrew wasn't a local. He wasn't a local manly guy like the other guys were. So maybe Kelly felt that he wasn't as consequential if she told him the truth because he wouldn't be like on the scene to out her. I don't know. But I think the other point worth mentioning here also is that if you watch any of these police interviews, if you watch sort of any press conferences with her, I think a thing that I definitely felt is that she often tries to make herself the victim. And I'm not saying that she isn't a victim in some ways at all, but all this kind of like, oh, he called me a slut, etc.

When you watch the police interview with her, she seems to be acting, in my opinion, way more disproportionately upset about that, about someone she had a briefling with years and years ago calling her a slut than the fact that she has no idea where her baby daughter is or her daughter tegan is like i find that quite a weird thing and also if you did have this guy who you had a briefling with didn't know anything about him he blows up at you calls you a slut says all these names and then you're just going to give your baby to him. That seems quite irrational, though I will accept that Kelly is a very irrational person. So, you know, maybe it's wrong to wonder why she does these things.

And another thing that Kelly seems more upset about than the fact her daughter is missing, presumed dead, and that she is being considered the main suspect, is that the police might tell her parents. That's the thing that scares her the most, not going to prison, not being convicted of murder, but that someone might tell her mum and dad. She is a fully grown woman with a fiancé and a baby. I do kind of get it, though. I think if I was being interviewed as the main subject in a murder, the only thing going through my head is,

what the fuck am I going to tell my mum? That is literally the only thing I would be thinking. Well, I'm glad that you can bring that insight to this then Hannah because it is it's really quite strange when you watch the interview she is just like yeah yeah yeah I know I know you want to ask me about this baby that's missing we'll get to that but are you going to tell my parents though like that is her overwhelming fear throughout the entire police interview is that and I'm like again it's just so like disproportionate and so unbalanced her reaction to these things it's very odd true but you know I've I kind of I'm 30 I'm older than her I get it and now I'm at home for I'm at my mom's house for lockdown and I now get stickers when I complete the work I'm supposed to do that

day I've got dinosaur stickers like chores or just like your no like my like red-handed work I like tell my mum I'm like oh I have to write this thing today and if I do it I get a sticker you give them to yourself or your mum gives them to you no my mum gives my mum is the sticker keeper otherwise I just give them to myself that's adorable I want someone to come here and give me stickers. Fuck it up. Because I've ordered a new laptop. I've got loads of new laptop stickers coming today.

So those are the like, because my mum's a nurse, so she has stickers anyway that she gives to babies that she injects with antibodies. So she brings them home for her 30-year-old completely vaccinated daughter. That's amazing. That's so great. I love it. Thank you, Karen, for bringing that to all of us. So yeah, Kelly is, like I would be, very concerned about who was going to say what to her mum and dad.

And you do kind of feel a bit sorry for her. But then you quite quickly remember that she's possibly killed a two-day-old baby, her baby, to save herself the embarrassment and drama of telling her parents. It is hard. As much as I do kind of understand that feeling, I also wouldn't kill a two-day-old baby. No, that is, I am glad to hear that, Hannah. I am glad to hear that. But I think it's like the specific phraseology as well that she uses in it. It's so like childlike almost, or just so like irrational. So like something she says in the interview that I thought was really weird. She says the usual things of like, are you going to tell my mom?

Are you going to tell my dad? If this gets out, everyone's going to know. Okay, fine. Those are reasonable fears to have. There's one line that she says that really stood out where she says, and my mom and dad, they aren't going to want to be anywhere near me, are they? It's such a weird statement. I don't know. It was weird. It felt weird to me. Hi, I'm Lindsey Graham, the host of Wondery Show American Scandal.

We bring to light some of the biggest controversies in U.S. history. Presidential lies, environmental disasters, corporate fraud. In our latest series, NASA embarks on an ambitious program to reinvent space exploration with the launch of its first reusable vehicle, the Space Shuttle. And in 1985, they announced they're sending teacher Krista McAuliffe into space aboard the Space Shuttle Challenger, along with six other astronauts. But less than two minutes after liftoff, the Challenger explodes. And in the tragedy's aftermath, investigators uncover a series of preventable failures by NASA and its contractors that led to the disaster. Follow American Scandal on the Wondery app or wherever you get your

podcasts. Experience all episodes ad-free and be the first to binge the newest season only on Wondery Plus. You can join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify. Start your free trial today. Roy Radin was found dead in a canyon near L.A. in 1983. There were many questions surrounding his death. The last person seen with him was Laney Jacobs, a seductive cocaine dealer who desperately wanted to be part of the Hollywood elite. Together, they were trying to break into the movie industry. But things took a dark turn

when a million dollars worth of cocaine and cash went missing. From Wondery comes a new season of the hit show Hollywood and Crime, The Cotton Club Murder. Follow Hollywood and Crime, The Cotton Club Murder on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge all episodes of The Cotton Club Murder early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus. After this interview, for some reason, the police let Kelly go and seemed to give up on the case.

And in April 2001, Kelly had a baby girl. And hoping that the investigation would just go away, which is what she seems to do with quite a lot of her problems, Kelly tried to get on with her life. The police investigation went nowhere for 17 months. So she really must have thought that she was out of the woods. Oh, yeah. Then a new detective, Detective Gort, took over the case. Gort wasn't from Manly, and I don't think he had the same loyalties to the Lane family that perhaps previous investigators might have.

And so he brought Kelly in for questioning in May 2003. By this point, Tegan, if she is still alive somewhere, would have been seven years old. That's how fucking long it's taken. So this interview is now a very infamous part of this entire case of the Kelly Lane case because it's during this questioning that Kelly started calling Andrew Morris, because remember that's the name she said was the man that she had given Teagan to but she starts calling him instead Andrew Norris with an N. So in the interview you can see that Gort picks up on this immediately but Kelly Corley just says oh that she must have been wrong she must have made a mistake last time and that his name is in fact

definitely Andrew Norris. Now according to Kelly Andrew was just some random guy that she must have been wrong, she must have made a mistake last time, and that his name is in fact definitely Andrew Norris. Now, according to Kelly, Andrew was just some random guy that she'd met at the pub in September 1995. They'd got drunk together, gone back to his, and, well, you know what happened next. After this encounter, Kelly said that they carried on sleeping together for a few months. And Wynne Court asked Kelly where Andrew had lived back then,

because they were definitely going back to his, they weren't like going back to her parents' house, which is where Kelly lived, she said that he lived in a flat in Balmain. At first, though, she really struggled to tell them exactly where this flat was. Which, okay, fine.

It had been years by this point. But she's claiming to have slept with this guy, Andrew Morris Norris, for months. And she knew Balmain really well. She went out there all the time. She played water polo there a few times a week. She was there constantly. And she was going back to this guy's house for months. Like, how does she not know where this flat is?

I don't get it. Eventually, Kelly managed to give an address, but when the police checked it, according to rental records, no one named Andrew Norris or Andrew Morris had lived there ever. The documentary, which is called Exposed, does point out, though, that by the time the police got to the records, all rental records from before December 1995 had been destroyed. So it's possible that Andrew Morris slash Norris could have left by then and therefore not shown up on the remaining records. I also think that like rental properties,

you can get away with so much shit. Like people live in my house with no tenancy agreement, people pay in cash. You know, it's very possible. Like obviously there should be records, but there might not. Not that I believe her. It's just an option. No, no, that's totally true. And actually, in the documentary, they do also point out the fact that what happens with flats, come on, subletting is rife. It could have been that he was subletting. So his name wouldn't have been on the records anyway. But there is a problem because all of the other tenants who lived in the building, the police spoke to them and not a single one of them remembered Kelly

or an Andrew Morris or an Andrew Norris. So that is pretty damning. This is the thing. And then the documentary does say they didn't speak to everybody and some people had left by the time they got round to interviewing. But I'm like, how did they not find one person that was just like, yeah, there was a guy called Andrew who lived here. That seems weird to me.

I don't know. The documentary did, however, find a man who said that he had lived in the flat that was supposed to be occupied by Andrew Norris slash Andrew Morris. And when the police showed this man a picture of Kelly, he did say that he recognised her and that she was always there. But they find him years after all of this happened and they just show him a picture of a woman who had also been

all over Australian television and he's like yeah definitely I sure did see her all the time. I mean I don't know I don't want to like discredit this guy but I am like really? If I saw a person who lives down my road in the wild like like somewhere else, I wouldn't necessarily recognise them as living on my street because I just don't pay attention to people like that. I just don't believe you. No, I'm not convinced. I've lived in the house I've lived in for three years. I'm not convinced I would recognise my neighbours on the street.

Apart from the little boy who lives opposite, I love him. But the rest of them, no idea. Exactly. I just, it's... And this is, she's not even living there. She's just coming and going, he says. So this guy's story is that he used to work on his car at the front of the flat and he would see Kelly regularly coming and going at night.

Come on, I just, for all of the reasons just stated, I just don't think I'm on this guy's side. No, I mean, eyewitness testimony we already know is terrible. Leave alone eyewitness testimony from years and years and years ago. And then again, leave alone eyewitness testimony where the guy said that he just saw her every now and again as she would come to the flat and leave. In the dark. In the dark while he was doing something else. And the thing that annoyed me in this documentary, because I do think the documentary is worth the watch, but I do feel like there are lots of issues with it. They get very unnecessarily excited about things that can easily be torn apart like this.

I find that weird. So there are also a lot of other weird things that go down during happened to Tegan and Gort even says, quote, this is your opportunity to tell us, just come clean. Kelly sits there in silence and she's looking like maybe she's thinking, but she's just sort of sat there completely in silence for one minute four seconds just sat there in silence and I'm like that is that takes some doing imagine being silent for one minute four seconds after somebody has just said that to you and after this weird long silence she just says no what you thinking about Kelly which also like just saying are you answering the question with, are you going to come clean with the word no? Sort of implies that you're guilty. Just come clean.

No. It implies you've got something you're hiding, doesn't it? It's not just like, I have nothing to come clean about or what do you mean or what are you implying? It's just, no, I'm not going to do that. Oh my God, you're right. I didn't even think about that. I was so caught up in the fucking one minute of silence.

My God, she is, this is what I mean. There are some real admirable qualities to Kelly in some way because I used to work in an industry where we were always told when you were interviewing people on the phone that silence is golden. You never ever break that silence when you're asking somebody a question because that's when they'll crack. They'll crack and they'll tell you something. If you interrupt that silence, you've given them an out. Don't ever do that. Make them feel uncomfortable. Kelly's just like, yeah, all right. I'm just going to fucking not play your game. A minute

and four seconds. I don't care. She's just silent. It is, honestly, it's something. Then after this, Gautja straight up asks her, did you kill the baby? And Kelly erupts with rage, denying it. And I don't know, her emotions are all over the place in this interview. It's very hard to convey them in this podcast. So even if you don't watch the full documentary, we'll leave some links to clips of the interview off YouTube that you can watch. And the whole thing, quite honestly, is quite jarring to watch. But one particular exchange that I thought was very telling is the following. So Gort says after Kelly denies killing baby Tegan, quote, I'm going to have to make a lot of inquiries then here.

To which Kelly, and I'm not kidding you, she almost pleads please don't that's what she says why would you say please don't if finding Tegan who by this point would like we said be seven years old is going to get you off the hook for being accused of murdering a baby why wouldn't you want all inquiries made? Why wouldn't you want her found? If all you've done is give away your baby to the biological father, then why are you so worried? You haven't done anything illegal, if that's the truth. And I don't know, the only thing I can say is that like we've mentioned before, Kelly's main fear is people finding out. So perhaps you could argue that her fear of the secret getting out is overriding all other concerns and she didn't actually kill Katika

and she just doesn't want people to find out. I don't know. It's a weird thing to say. I'm pretty sure that at this stage, Detective Gort recognised Kelly's key motivator, which is, of course, secrecy. And so he got a total media lockdown put on the case, which is probably the best move he could have possibly made. And then he offered Kelly a deal. He offered her immunity for everything except murder.

If she just told him what had happened and where the baby was. He said that even if it was murder, they could build a sympathetic case around postnatal depression or something like that. All Kelly had to do was help them find the baby. But Kelly just said, quote, I'm not going to admit to something I didn't do. And so the media block was lifted and the world discovered Kelly Lane's dark secrets and their many inconsistencies. And okay, fine, a lot of places would say or point out this as an example saying, look, like, oh, she didn't take the deal. So therefore she didn't kill Tegan. But we already

know that Kelly is motivated above all else by appearance and reputation and also shame. And we already know that she's an all or nothing kind of person. And I think, you know, when you lie, and then you get caught in the lie, and then keep lying and then you lie yourself into a corner and you can't get out oh yeah that's what this is like I just I think I've made it quite clear that I think she did it but there's just my opinion no one come for me I think she just can't face the idea of it all unraveling um and people knowing that she's a baby murderer, which, I mean, no one wants that. No one wants that. But also not everyone does it. And I don't know, I also think that Kelly,

maybe to some degree, and this isn't me excusing her, I just mean the veracity with which she lies. I wonder if some extent she lies so much, so compulsively that to some extent she almost believes it herself and she's almost believes that tegan is alive and well and living somewhere with andrew norris like i just don't understand the situation and so people being like why didn't she just take it like we know she doesn't make fucking rational decisions like anyway and if kelly had any hopes of keeping her secret secret it was all all over. Everything comes crashing down. Because on the 20th of June 2005, an inquest into the disappearance and suspected death of Tegan Lane began before coroner John Abernathy.

And the following year, in February 2006, the coroner concluded, quote, I am comfortably satisfied that Tegan Lane is in fact deceased. And then he ordered a homicide investigation to be opened and headed up by Detective Sharon Rhodes. In August 2008, so 12 years after Tegan vanished, the police and forensics teams tore through Duncan Gilly's old home. He gets dragged into this so many times. And like, as far as we know, he never even got Kelly pregnant. And he is constantly in this story. He like had to go to court and everything. So the reason that they tear up Duncan Gilly's old home is because if you guys remember, Kelly had lived there during their relationship. And investigators suspected that she may have dumped Tegan's body at that house.

Because, if you also remember, after Kelly left the hospital that day that Tegan was born, on her way back to her parents' house so that she could go to this wedding with Duncan, she'd stopped off at his place to pick up some clothes. So they suspected basically during that stop off, she maybe dumped Tegan there. But, after a very thorough search, nothing was ever found. But it didn't matter, because the case was going ahead anyway. And on the 3rd of December 2009, Kelly Lane appeared in court charged with murdering baby Teagan. But it was by no means a slam-dunk case.

The prosecution was going to have to prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, without a body or really any physical evidence, that she had killed this baby. And the defence, they were sticking to their story. To Kelly's story, really. That Tegan was with her biological father and that they just didn't know where he was or how to contact him. And if you thought this case was weird, the trial doesn't get any better. There were some really bizarre things that happened with both the prosecution and the defence. And if you thought this case was weird, the trial doesn't get any better. There were some really bizarre things that happened with both the prosecution and the defence. Firstly, the prosecution should never have been able to bring up the four other pregnancies at trial because they aren't actually related to the crime Kelly was being tried for. But they got around this by adding three perjury charges to the murder charge,

linked to the times Kelly gave false information on hospital records and adoption papers. So apparently when you like do an adoption or whatever, you have to like sign an affidavit saying that, you know, you're happy to give this baby up, etc, etc. And during that time, you know, she gave her contact details, she gave her addresses, etc. But as we know, and as we kept hinting at it last week, it becomes very important that Kelly lied on all of these forms

about where she lived, who she was, who the baby's dad was, her addresses, her phone numbers, everything. Because now that's what enables the prosecution to add on these perjury charges, which reveals these other pregnancies, which otherwise would have been sealed, and the jury never would have heard about them. The judge even told the defence, if you want these charges removed, then say now.

But Kelly's defence were like, no, don't worry about it, mate. Fine, we'll keep them. And this was a terrible decision. I don't understand why. I mean, it's a terrible decision for Kelly because the prosecution were able to use the other secret pregnancies to paint Kelly as a total liar in the eyes of the jury. I've got nothing to say.

I literally have no words. It's really baffling because in the documentary, for example, they're speaking to the judge and the judge is like, I dropped a lot of hints to the defense saying you might want to challenge these perjury charges because it's going to be really bad for your client. And they're like, nah, it's OK. She did. She did do those things. The prosecution also spent a lot of time saying that Kelly's Olympic ambitions and her career goals were why she had killed Teagan. But then they also start doing a lot of speculating. They offer various theories as to what happened to Tegan and how Kelly killed and disposed of her, but without offering any evidence to back these theories up. One of the theories

they came up with was that Kelly had dumped Tegan's body in the wet cement of the new Olympic Park that was being built near the hospital. And that's actually John Borovnik's theory. And the prosecution had literally no evidence when they stated it at trial. The theory was later withdrawn and removed from the record by the judge. And I've been thinking about this wet cement thing. Cement dries really quick. Like, if you're getting a human baby under that cement, it would have to, I would believe, at the time it is being poured, which means there are people around and it's daytime.

Like, I just, I don't buy the cement theory at all. And like whether we buy it or not, we always say on this case, it's about, on this show, it's about the defence and the prosecution coming up with narratives, right? Telling a story for what could have happened at trial. But like, you can't just say random things without any evidence. They have no evidence that this happened, not even circumstantial. The only thing that's even mildly is that it was near the hospital. That's not fucking good enough, is it, to just say it and have the jury hear it. And the judge even asked the defence if they

wanted to restart the trial and get a whole new jury. But the defence were like, don't worry about it. We would like to proceed, please. Surely if you get a do-over you just take it oh my god i do not understand and at this point why wouldn't you take the retrial because you now the the prosecution have also outed themselves in the fact that they have no physical evidence they've outed their lines of argument the narratives they're going to bring forward you could go away you could re-establish your case you could come back with a fresh jury and attack them even harder but no they're just like that's fine we'll just carry on don't worry about it just make sure the jury definitely definitely promise that they won't remember that it's fucking crazy

a friend of mine is a primary school teacher and when she teaches something the kids the kids something that's wrong she makes them shake their heads and like shake out of their head so she's like everybody and it's gone. That's exactly what this is. That's what I imagine the defense counsel just saying to the jury. Like, everybody, you got it out right. Okay, cool. We don't want the fuss of starting again.

You guys seem like good folk. Let's carry on. Fuck it up. Kids are so funny with stuff like that. Like, when I was in Korea, we did quite a lot of watching Mr. Bean, which obviously had to be a secret because it meant I wasn't doing my job. So I would talk to the kids and they'd be like, funny man, teacher, funny man. I'm like, okay, we can watch the funny man, but it's a secret. And you all have to promise that it's a secret. And it just devolved into them coming into the classroom being like, secret teacher! That's amazing. Brilliant, brilliant. That's what this is.

This is secret evidence that should be forgotten and never spoken about again. Apparently. So apparently Kelly's the one that told them to just get on with it. And I can understand Kelly wanting it to be over with, but also she is not a barrister. No.

Like, tell her to shut up and do what's best. Like, come on. Exactly. I'm like, how is your argument that my client was like, no, it's fine, just get on with it? She doesn't know what she's talking about. And Kelly says now that she absolutely did not say that to her defence, but Kelly is also a liar,

but her defence counsel are also clearly very shit. So it's hard to know who to believe to be honest but I do think it is only fair to point out the fact that I do think that Kelly had very ineffective counsel to say the least but then saying that with regards to the actual narrative of the defense Kelly doesn't really set her team up for success because her story is terrible it's full of holes and it barely makes sense but it is all that they had to work with and it also didn't help that by this stage that Kelly seems to have told in total eight or nine different versions of what happened the

day that Tegan went missing that's not helpful Kelly pick one and stick to it. But essentially, we can boil her story down to the following. So as we mentioned in last week's episode, Kelly said that on the day she left the hospital, so the 14th of September 1996, she had completed all of the paperwork to take Tegan home and that she had been discharged at around 2pm. She said that she then handed Tegan over to Andrew and then left in a taxi and went to Duncan's house to pick up her wedding clothes and then went to her parents' house to get dressed. This is backed up initially by the nurse's notes, which literally say 2pm Kelly Lane, like gone, left, whatever it says in her notes. And basically it says like it indicates that Kelly was gone. The problem with this however is that if Kelly left the hospital at 2pm it would have been impossible for her to get to her parents

house at 3pm. It's impossible basically for her to leave the hospital, get to Duncan's house, pick up the clothes, go to her parents house is about an hour and a half journey. She couldn't have been there by three and we know that she was there by three because Duncan attests to this. And we know that they were at the wedding by four. But the defence stick with this timeline, saying that she did leave at 2pm because they wanted to show

that she would have had absolutely no time to kill and dispose of a baby. Because she was doing all of the other things that they have no evidence she actually did. Sure, fine, cool. There are a couple of other things worth mentioning here as well, like the fact that Kelly's roommate in the hospital

said that she noticed Kelly and the baby and all of Kelly's stuff were gone by midday. So that's long before two o'clock. I assume you all know how the passage of time works. For this to be the case, oh my God, I saw a dog on TikTok that understands the time he's like he has buttons that he can talk and he's like beach tomorrow walk morning today

so precious got distracted by tiktok dogs i think the problem with her saying that she would have left by 12 is that if kelly did leave at 12 that she couldn't have been properly discharged like because the doctors and the nurses the hospital say that all of baby Teagan's checks wouldn't have been completed at that point so she couldn't have been officially discharged and for this to be the case so for the roommate to be correct that Kelly had left before two so by like midday Kelly must have left without actually being properly discharged because the doctors and nurses say that Tegan's checks wouldn't have been completed by that point. And I do wonder if Kelly just started to panic because she's got to be at the house by three.

She's got this wedding to get to. She knows these checks are taking too long. So she just picks Tegan up and leaves because it's all taking too long. And Problem Child give a pretty good explanation of how this might be provable. Apparently, back then in the 90s, baby seats in Australia could only be fitted professionally, and that particular hospital would only discharge a baby if a nurse walked out to your car with you and checked that you had the car seat properly installed. We don't know what happens if you don't have a car and left by a taxi like Kelly says she did. When I heard that, I was like, oh, well, that proves that she wasn't properly discharged because she didn't have a baby seat professionally fitted in her car. But what if you leave in a taxi? Are the nurses just

not going to let you leave? Like, I don't know. It's not definitive to me, but it's worth mentioning. And the other thing that becomes quite a controversial element of this case is the nurse who wrote down the 2pm note in the nurse's notes actually said at trial that she didn't discharge Kelly at 2pm. She said that she had just gone into Kelly's room, seen that she had left, and written down on the notes about Kelly Lane at 2pm because that's when she did her rounds. And I can believe that because if Kelly just slipped out before 2pm,

this nurse isn't going to like go fucking hunting for her. She just sees she's gone and writes down that she's gone. And so if Kelly did in fact leave at midday, like her roommate says that she did, that would have given her plenty of time, not just to get back to Fairlight to meet Duncan, but also to have gotten rid of Tegan. So this whole thing basically just puts a whole, like,

confusion around the timelines. But I am more likely to believe that Kelly just left before she was discharged. And the other thing, the other issue with this version of Kelly's story is that now Kelly claims that Andrew Norris came up to her room to help her with Tegan and that they walked out to the foyer where Mel and Andrew's mum was sat waiting for them. But what is important to note with this story is that no one by the name of Andrew Norris or Andrew Morris or in fact anyone all, ever signed in as a visitor for Kelly that

day or any day. And I can't believe that a hospital would just let a man walk up to the maternity ward without signing in. Like, even in the 90s, would that have happened? I don't know. No, I don't think so. And the details that Kelly gives, even about what she did immediately after she had given the baby away to Andrew and his mum and Mel don't really fit. She says that she walked out of the electronic doors at the front of the hospital. And it's really like cringe to listen to her talk about this because she says it in a really overly descriptive way. She's like, you know, and I walked out of those doors, you know, the ones that pull back and I walked out into the driveway thing and, you know, I got into a taxi. But the Problem Child podcast points out that there were no automatic

doors at that hospital during that time. And there were also no taxi stands that close to the front of the hospital. So that is a bit of an issue. The only argument I can say is that Kelly has been in and out of a lot of fucking hospitals. Is she confused? But you have just done a very consequential thing like give your baby to a man, but then maybe it's just normal to Kelly by this point. I don't know. But this mistake is picked upon by the prosecution because they obviously jump all over this and they say that Kelly doesn't know what the front of the hospital looks like because she actually left through the fire door in her room. This fire door was unalarmed and if you opened it it would have led down some back stairs that would have taken you down to the ground floor directly to where the hospital's industrial bins were. They're obviously saying

that she dumped Teagan's body down there but hard evidence, again, this is just a theory. Eventually, after six long months, the trial finally came to a close and Kelly Lane, who didn't take the stand once, was found guilty of the premeditated murder of Tegan Lane and sentenced to a minimum term of 18 years. Kelly's still in jail today and she'll be eligible for parole in 2023. God, that's soon. Yeah.

She still claims to be completely innocent. And Kelly spoke out on this case for the first time in the exposed documentary. And if you watch it after this, you'll probably get a similar feeling that we got. They don't really push Kelly hard enough. They know she's lying, but they seem to take everything she tells them at face value. And they make some weird choices and also seem to get excited by seemingly pointless shit i think that the documentary wanted to be a oh my god she didn't do it there's an innocent woman in prison and then they interview her and they're like oh she she definitely did and then they can't don't know what to do with it this is is the thing. They know she's a liar.

They know she lies. And they're just like, oh God, how are we going to spin a narrative with this one? And I don't know. I found it cringe in all honesty. I'm sorry to say that, but I did. For example, the documentary makers get super pumped when a forensic artist works with Kelly

to come up with an e-fit of Andrew Morris slash Norris and like so he's an imaginary person I know I'm like what are you so excited about what are they excited oh she can imagine a face I know and yeah this forensic artist is like I can tell when someone's making up her face but what Kelly could just be thinking about someone she knows and telling you his face. Like, how do you know? I don't. It's a weird thing to give a shit about. So the documentary hasn't convinced anybody on the Red Handed team that Kelly did not do it. But they did raise some stuff that hadn't previously been discussed, like the fact that Kelly had been date raped at the age of 15. And it was her first sexual...

She was a virgin before that. Not that that wouldn't be traumatic to anybody, but that is her first ever situation, and this is what happens. Other places that want to give a fully negative narrative of Kelly don't ever mention this. And while it doesn't explain everything, it does perhaps point to an unresolved underlying issue that may have driven her to more irrational behaviour.

The documentary also gives a lot of face time with Kelly's parents. And they also, in our opinion, explain some of Kelly's weird behaviour. Now, we did talk about this briefly in last week's episode, but her mum, Sandy, doesn't come off looking great in this documentary. And I know, of course, that, you know, this is only a glimpse into this woman's personality. It's not definitive. And she's obviously just trying to clearly defend her daughter. But I do think that some of Sandy's behavior

may be indicative of how she perhaps raised Kelly. For example, at one point, when talking about why Kelly kept five pregnancies a secret from her, Sandy says, quote, To be honest, it shows great strength to keep that to herself without letting us know. She did it to protect us. I mean... Dislike.

What the fuck, Sandy? Okay, you could say she did it to protect us. Okay, fine. the fuck sandy okay you could say she did it to protect us okay fine but to say that to keep five pregnancy secret from you shows strength if you're telling somebody you're telling your child yep you just don't ever tell us anything you bottle up all your feelings and all your emotions that's strength no wonder fucking kelly felt like she couldn't tell anybody so something else that i think is a huge hole if we believe Kelly is the obvious it's where the fuck is Andrew Morris slash Norris if this man is out there and has Teagan who today would be like

23 something like that and he hasn't been found why doesn't he just come forward why also have we never seen Kelly and maybe this exists out there I've just not seen Why also have we never seen Kelly? And maybe this exists out there, I've just not seen it. Why have we never seen Kelly speaking straight to a camera, imploring Andrew to come forward and speak out? Like why has that press conference never happened? Or why have I never seen it? The thing is, there was a nationwide search for him and the police didn't find anything. And yes yes while Kelly supporters will say that the police attempts to find Andrew were weak still even if they weren't looking hard enough this case got so much coverage in Australia it was all over the news why did Andrew Morris slash Norris

just not come forward and say here's baby Teagan like we said with kelly if he's the biological father he hasn't done anything illegal and um one theory that i did read on reddit as to why this might be the case is say that baby tegan grew up thinking that mel andrew's girlfriend is her mom and maybe andrew and mel just don't want to reveal the truth but like really that seems so doesn't it? To condemn a woman to being called a baby murderer and spending 18 years in prison. Yeah, I don't buy it. And also, Tegan's famous. Yeah. Like, everyone knows who baby Tegan is now. Like, why would you not just be like, it's all right, guys, call off the search.

She's doing accountancy. Exactly. She's fine. She lives in Canberra and she does accountancy. She's A-OK. She got a dog. She's fine. She in Canberra and she does accountancy she's a-okay she got a dog she's fine she's not dead I don't know it's weird she's got a dog and a voxel corset precisely but Kelly's parents and her advocates say that there's no evidence no body and no eyewitnesses which to a certain extent is true and that Kelly was judged unfairly because of the secret pregnancies adoptions and cover-ups. But is that totally irrelevant? It's difficult to say.

Because you can make the argument that it shouldn't have been brought up at court, but like, is it irrelevant? I don't know. I can't bring myself to say that it is. And if we think her motive is that she wanted to go to the Sydney Olympics in 2000, and that's why she killed Tegan. Also, a bit of a stretch. Kelly's own coach said that Kelly never spoke about wanting to go to the Olympics and that even if she wanted to, she just wasn't that good. No, they all say Kelly wasn't the best player in terms of talent.

She was just really, really determined. But she wasn't that good. And Kelly's friends who were athletes also made a good point saying that if Kelly had been seriously considering the Olympics, she would have had to stop everything else like partying and also the constant pregnancies. But she didn't. You know, if you are serious enough about the Olympics to kill a baby, surely you're just going to forego the pints. You'd think so, wouldn't you? And Kelly's friends also said that her real goal was to work as a coach or a PE teacher and marry well in Manly and live a nice life. And that's

all she wanted, just to live the life that she had lived growing up. But surely this could also be a reason for Kelly to have been motivated to kill Tegan. She wants a carbon copy of her mum's life. And having a baby at, what was she, 20, 19, 20, doesn't really fit into that mould. In a town like Manly, if she wanted to marry someone like Duncan and settle down, it's probably easier to do that without someone else's secret baby. And we have to also discuss this next bit because it's just so weird. Because it turns out that the prosecution actually claimed to have found a man named andrew morris who said that he had had sex with kelly at around the time that she would have

conceived tegan but that he didn't have the baby however this andrew morris man never testified in court the prosecution found him they got him to make a tape with them saying all this stuff about how he'd slept with kelly and then they showed it to the defense. Kelly categorically denied ever having slept with this man and said that she'd never seen him before in her life. But the defense, clearly worried, made a deal. They agreed to drop one of their witnesses if the prosecution agreed to drop their Andrew Morris. And the prosecution agreed. And who did the defense drop? A woman named Natalie McCauley. And also, this isn't Pokemon cards. Like how, when does this become a bargaining thing of like, oh, well, I've got Charizard, so you've got to get rid of Squirtle. Absolutely.

Like what? Like, come on. This is common, apparently. So one of the things that these lawyers in the documentary are talking about, how this case really opened people's eyes to the kind of game playing that happens within the justice system. And it made people further distrust everything that was going on, which I do agree. But the other thing I have to feel like, okay, they cut a deal to drop a witness each. But like, how serious can the prosecution have felt

about this Andrew Morris character and his legitimacy if they're willing to just fucking drop him? He is the golden card. I can't think of a good reference. The golden card. He's the ace in their hat. I don't know. He's the sparkly Pokemon card. He is. He's the shiny. And they're just gonna be like, oh, okay, we'll drop him. Like, if you say that you found the Andrew Morris and he hasn't got baby Teagan because Kelly never gave the baby to him surely that's all you need case closed but no they agreed to drop him in exchange for a woman named Natalie McCauley so Natalie was a childhood friend of Kelly's and had gone to work for the UN in child protection in the Philippines and Natalie states

that Kelly definitely told her back then when she she would have got pregnant with Tegan, that she was having an affair with a man named Andrew Norris. And she claims, like we said, she's gone off to the UN to become a child protection person, that she's dedicated her life to fighting for children's rights. And if she thought for a moment that Kelly had hurt Tegan, she wouldn't say this. So thanks to this deal between the defence and the prosecution, Natalie's story is never heard by the jury. But I don't think Natalie's lying.

But Kelly lies all the time. And she also uses names of people she knows when she's lying. For example, she would lie about who her doctor or her midwife was every time she turned up at a hospital for an abortion or to give birth. She used names of people like friends, families and even Duncan's mum. Otherwise it would be like Mrs Doubtfire where he's like on the phone being like, it's difficult to come up with names out of thin air. So maybe Kelly was sleeping with an Andrew Morris

or an Andrew Norris at the time, but that doesn't particularly prove anything. No, I just feel like Kelly's friend coming forward and being like, she was sleeping with a guy named Andrew Norris at the time because she told me about it. But like, so? That doesn't prove that he was the baby daddy and that doesn't prove that she gave it to him. Like, I don't understand how that is definitive proof.

And this is why we also know that the Andrew Morris that the prosecution found is bullshit because the prosecution were willing to drop him in exchange for this witness. Yeah, we cannot ignore that Kelly's defense team were bad, but the prosecution are pretty awful as well. For example the Andrew Morris that they came up with who made the video for them now says that he's not actually sure if it was Kelly that he slept with after all. Keep up Andrew. You couldn't fucking make this up. You couldn't make this up. It's just such a fucking shit show. It's a nightmare. So whatever we think about whether Kelly killed baby Teagan or whether she didn't, I'm pretty sure I don't think the prosecution proved it beyond a reasonable doubt.

There's no body, there's no physical evidence, and there were no eyewitnesses. There's just a lot of circumstantial evidence. And circumstantial evidence is evidence, but I think in this particular case, all the circumstantial evidence does is paint a picture of Kelly of being not particularly well. I don't think it actually pertains to the death of baby Tegan that much at all. And even though it is circumstantial evidence, it's counterbalanced by a massive piece of evidence that's missing, and it's in the shape of a missing baby. But again, the burden of proof is on the prosecution,

and I just don't think that they showed Kelly killed Teagan. I think that's the thing we have to remember. We can think whatever we want about whether Kelly killed Teagan or not. But the question of was it proven beyond a reasonable doubt in this court? Was her conviction safe? I don't know that I can say that because they have nothing apart from the fact that this baby is missing and we don't know where she is but like Hannah said the burden of proof is on the prosecution. So before we get into our thoughts of what we think may have happened let's talk about the psychology of all of this. Like we said before during the entire six-month trial Kelly never took the stand once and she also flat out refused to be psychologically assessed. So it's hard to know exactly what drove Kelly to do what she did.

Even if she didn't kill Teagan, her behaviour can hardly be called normal. And as always with these things, if you get enough experts together, they will often reach very different conclusions. Dr Diamond, who was a man who was brought in by the prosecution at trial, said that he felt Kelly's repeated pregnancies were some sort of repetition compulsion. In his opinion he felt that Kelly was dealing with a powerful drive to revisit an unresolved conflicted state and he explained that it was most likely due to an underlying disturbed personality dysfunction. Essentially it seems to be like some sort of traumatic reenactment

and like this is a dysfunctional coping mechanism for Kelly. Dr Diamond also suggested that Kelly may have narcissistic personality disorder with psychopathic traits, though it's important to note that since Kelly wouldn't allow it, he didn't actually assess her face to face. Dr Diamond stated that he felt quote she is capable of carrying out audacious and extremely difficult actions to solve problems in front of her and I think that's how she dealt with Tegan. And I can agree with that. Yeah oh if that's the only thing

I can agree with that's happened this whole episode to be honest. You know narcissists are driven by shame how people perceive them it's about public perception and status and what other people think and Kelly seems totally motivated by this she's motivated by a fear of what people especially her parents will think of her and you can't help but get the feeling that Kelly is totally fearless when it comes to dealing with terrifying situations as long as her parents don't know about them, which is a classic psychopathic trait. But Dr. Anne Boost, another psychologist who did actually meet Kelly in person,

felt that Kelly was just emotionally immature, placing her at the time that Tegan disappeared at the emotional intelligence of a smart 12-year-old. Yeah. She would have been 21, and Dr. Boost is just like she's like she's 12 how but only emotionally not intellectually she says that no no i i understand that but how are you pulling people with the emotional intelligence of a 12 year old that doesn't make any sense i

don't know i don't know maybe that's where I'm going wrong. Maybe I should just emotionally devolve. Maybe. Maybe that's what it is. That's what you're missing. I don't know what kind of a person that's going to attract for you, but it might get you some pregnancies. It's worth a shot. I'm already there with the stickers, to be honest.

I'm halfway there. There you go. I think that Dr. Boost is a little bit too enabling of Kelly Lane. For example, Kelly's recently found herself in the news again because she started sending some pretty aggressive letters to her former partner and his new girlfriend. She sent a list of rules and instructions to her ex, including things like no going down on her,

take her for everything she has, and she's not allowed in the kitchen. What are you going to do about it from inside jail, Kelly? Yeah. Not a whole lot. And what's it got to do with you, Kelly? He's left you and he's with somebody else now. Like, it's so, it's so weird. It's so weird. When asked about these letters and the psychology of it, Dr. Boost said that Kelly is, quote, probably not mixing with the most reasonable women in jail and she's not the first person to be caught up in a dirty custody battle. Essentially, she's just saying that it's not Kelly's fault she's being influenced by the other naughty girls in the playground and that Kelly wouldn't do something like that of her own

accord. It's weird. It's really weird. I feel like she manipulates, especially female psychologists and psychiatrists who work with her. There are some others who go out on TV and are like, she didn't do it. She didn't do it. And I'm like, she's fucking manipulating you. I don't know. Classic psychopath again. Like classic. The way that Dr. Boost enables Kelly is how I feel like Kelly was treated by other people in her life. And to say that she's just probably not mixing with the most reasonable women. Are you fucking serious? What?

I don't know. Yeah. It's hard not to feel weird about these comments from Dr. Boost. And she is, at the end of the day, enabling some pretty weird behavior from Kelly, a woman who, regardless of what happened to Tegan, has never really seemed to have taken much responsibility for anything. So let's wrap up this case with Kelly and what we think about what may have happened. Like we said, people who support Kelly say that it doesn't make sense. Why adopt out one baby, kill one baby and then adopt out the third baby again?

Because that is the pattern that Kelly follows. Tegan is the middle child who we're saying that she probably killed. But there are explanations for this I think. It could have been that after baby one Kelly realized how hard it was to adopt out a baby without a father being involved because if you remember they were chasing for Duncan to come in and sign these papers and do it. It took 14 months for Kelly to get baby Claire adopted out in 1995 without her father being involved. So maybe she just didn't want to go through that again because she knew that it was going to be a massive hassle. And we also know that on the day that Tegan vanished, Kelly needed to be at that wedding. Her entire credibility depended on it. And if you ask me for my real honest opinion, I don't think that Kelly wanted

to kill Tegan. I don't think she's like, you know, some malevolent person who's like, let me give birth this baby and then murder it. I think that she killed Tegan out of convenience. And then I think she adopted out the third baby after Tegan. So the little baby boy that she had, because killing wasn't what she actually wanted to do. And it probably wasn't very nice for her. I don't think that Kelly like took Tegan out of the hospital, strangled her or, you know, even maybe smothered her and then just like got rid of her body like that. Kelly, if there's one thing we know about her from this entire case is that she is an avoider. She avoids the reality of situations.

I think, and this is just my opinion, most likely what happened is that Kelly took Tegan out of the hospital that day and just left her somewhere that she wasn't going to be found. And then another thing we know about Kelly, other than how avoidant she is, is just how great she is at compartmentalizing her life. I think that she could have left Tegan somewhere, closed that little box and just tried to forget about it, got back in her car, drove to Duncan's house, picked

up her clothes, gone to the wedding and just ignored it all. Just like she tried to ignore and avoid all of her pregnancies until the last minute. That's classic Kelly. We see that with her again and again. And I also think that arguing that it doesn't make logical sense, that why would you adopt, then kill, then adopt again? It's kind of a moot point because Kelly doesn't make rational decisions. She's proven that time and time again. So I do think it is a bit of a fallacy to try and ascribe rational thinking to her actions and ask why she wouldn't do this or this or why she would do this

like I think you have to think about what motivates Kelly and it is her status it's her secrecy and following through on what she needs to do she needs to be at that wedding Tegan was in the way she starts an adoption process it's going to take fucking days she hasn't got time she needs to get out she needs to be gone I just think that's it and it doesn't make sense but I don't think a lot of what she does makes sense I don't know what do you think that's what I think happened most likely I mean I'm with you really like I just I don't think there's any point in attempting to make it fit into like a logical narrative sort of box because she's not a logical person I think you're absolutely right I think baby Teagan was a problem. And perhaps she would have done the adoption thing if she didn't have to be at the wedding.

Yeah, I fully think she would have. I think her priorities are so out of whack that she was just like, the adoption thing is going to take too long. I'll have to stay here and I can't do that. So my other option is the baby goes in the bin. Yeah, exactly. So I think that is tragically what probably happened. And some people will also say, oh, but you know, she's not a horrible person who could kill a baby because look at the last baby because her sixth baby that she has with the man that she was engaged to before she went into prison, she loved. She's got so many pictures of her and that kid. She's like super, you know, gushing. She says that she's so, so heartbroken that she's going

to go to jail and lose contact with this child but that doesn't prove anything she wanted that baby because it suited the life that Kelly wanted to have at that point she was engaged she was going to be married to the father she was going to have this baby she was going to have the life she wanted that baby suited her and that's why she wanted it the others didn't and Tegan especially didn't because she was super inconvenient on that particular day. And I think, tragically, you don't need to look much further than that to understand what probably happened here, in my opinion. And I think that Kelly ultimately painted herself, whatever did happen, as completely unreliable given all of the sort of wild goose chases that she sent police on right from the start because she

just lies and lies and lies and every time they follow her story it leads them absolutely nowhere and this I wanted to end on this because I watched that entire fucking documentary and this is the closing scene of that documentary called exposed and I was like are you fucking kidding me because they say for the first time, they're like talking to Kelly from prison over the phone. And Kelly says, this is the first time she's ever said this, I don't know if his name was even really Andrew Norris.

Fucking killed me. What are you playing at, Kelly? I know, I know. And the people in the documentary are like, well, there you go. Fucking cracked it wide open. The possibilities are endless. End scene. I'm like, what? What does that fucking prove? Oh, my God. The whole thing's a fucking mess. But yeah, that's what we think. Tell us what you guys think. I'm really interested to know. I know that there are people who believe very strongly on either side of the fence and i know this was a huge case in australia so if you don't already come follow us um on all the social medias at red handed the pod and let us know what you think because i'm very curious to know in other news if you would like to get your hands on some merch it is still up still available you can do so it's all on redhandedshop.com link

is in the episode description below and if you would like to come hang out with us immediately after this in under the duvet uh you can also do that if you're a five dollar and up patreon um and you can also remember to sign up for the live stream if you'd like to do so but anyway that is the end of this we will see you next week for a different case goodbye yeah come to over the duvet and talk about abortion doping because it's over the duvet learned about it is over the duvet under and over the duvet uh we're gonna have to go through it because we're going on a duvet hunt uh we can't go goodbye um bye So, get this.

The Ontario Liberals elected Bonnie Crombie as their new leader. Bonnie who? I just sent you her profile. Her first act as leader, asking donors for a million bucks for her salary. That's excessive. She's a big carbon tax supporter. Oh yeah. Check out her record as mayor. Oh, get out of here. She even increased taxes in this economy. Yeah. Higher taxes, carbon taxes. She sounds expensive.

Bonnie Crombie and the Ontario Liberals. They just don't get it. That'll cost you. A message from the Ontario PC Party. He was hip-hop's biggest mogul, the man who redefined fame, fortune, and the music industry. The first male rapper to be honored on the Hollywood Walk of Fame, Sean Diddy Cone. Diddy built an empire and lived a life most people only dream about. Everybody know ain't no party like a Diddy party, so. Yeah, that's what's up.

But just as quickly as his empire rose, it came crashing down. Today I'm announcing the unsealing of a three-count indictment, charging Sean Combs with racketeering conspiracy, sex trafficking, interstate transportation for prostitution. I was f***ed up and I hit rock bottom, but I made no excuses. I'm disgusted. I'm so sorry. Until you're wearing an orange jumpsuit, it's not real. Now it's real. From his meteoric rise to his shocking fall from grace, from law and crime, this is the rise and fall of Diddy. Listen to the rise and fall of Diddy exclusively with Wondery Plus.