RedHanded - FROM THE VAULT: Episode 278/9 - Scott Peterson: Sex, Lies & Fishing Boats - Part 1 & 2

Episode Date: August 12, 2024

With Scott Peterson back in the news, having given his first interview in decades we thought it would be a good time to refresh our memories on this baffling case, and remind you all of one very important fact - He 100% did it.When beautiful, eight-and-a-half-month-pregnant Laci Peterson vanished without a trace on Christmas Eve 2002, headlines across the US exploded.As much as the media and the public obsessed over the case, and the seemingly odd behaviour of her husband Scott, no one was prepared for the shocking revelations that were to come…Leaving people asking: did Scott Peterson kill his wife, or is he just the unluckiest man alive?Exclusive bonus content:Wondery - Ad-free & ShortHandPatreon - Ad-free & Bonus EpisodesFollow us on social media:YouTubeTikTokInstagramXVisit our website:WebsiteSources available on redhandedpodcast.comSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to Red Handed early and ad-free. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. They say Hollywood is where dreams are made. A seductive city where many flock to get rich, be adored, and capture America's heart. But when the spotlight turns off, fame, fortune, and lives can disappear in an instant. Follow Hollywood and Crime, The Cotton Club Murder on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi there. Fancy another vaulted episode?

Well, you're in luck. It's been over two years now since Scott Peterson was denied another trial. He was re-sentenced to life, and I thought that would be the end of us having to talk about the man. Alas, this August looks to be gross boy summer, with two documentaries coming out over the course of this month.

The three-part series, face-to-face with Scott Peterson, which is out later this month, will feature the convicted killer's first interview in decades, while Netflix's American Murder, out on the 14th of August, will put Lacey's mum, apparently, front and centre. Now, we haven't seen either doc yet, we don't know what they're going to say, we don't know what the agenda is, what the narrative is,

but we know what we think. And so we wanted to re-release our two-parter on the Scott Peterson case, so that if anyone tries to suggest to you that he's actually innocent, you can hit them with the facts. Enjoy. I'm Saruti. I'm Hannah. And welcome to Red Handed. It's the last one of the year, almost. Yes, the penultimate episode of 2022. It's been a hell of a year. Thank you, everyone who has stuck by us. Do you know what our first episode this year was?

Fuck no. Scientology. Doesn't that feel like a hundred years ago? It also feels like it was yesterday. I'm very confused, but it doesn't matter. Doesn't matter. Let's not look back. Let's look forward and onwards to today's episode. This is going to be a two-parter.

It's got to be. So let's get on with it because it's a fucking beast. And everyone be talking. Oh, yeah. Everyone be having opinions. Oh, they do indeed. Let's get on to ours. In November 2004, 33-year-old Scott Peterson was sentenced to death for the murder of his pregnant wife Lacey and their unborn son, who they had named Connor. To this day, Peterson claims to be innocent, saying that he was a victim of a media storm that whipped up a

frenzy of hate against him. Scott Peterson has spent years appealing his conviction, and in December 2021, his death sentence, but not his conviction, was overruled. And he was resentenced to life without the possibility of parole. And last Friday, so Friday the 2nd of December 2022, we were supposed to find out if Scott Peterson's appeal to try and get a whole new trial have been successful or not. But the judge decided that there was no need for a hearing on the matter and that she will be releasing her decision on whether or not he will be having a new trial in writing before the 16th of December. Which means at the time we are recording this episode, we do not know what is going to happen.

All we know is that there is going to be no hearing and a decision is on the way. We don't know what that decision is. And this case has been on our list for quite some time. And you will already know if you know anything about this case. There's no way we'd be able to do it justice in an hour, even an hour and a half. So we're doing a two-parter. And that means we will be closing 2022 with Scott Peterson. It is the last case you will hear this year at

Red Handed Towers coming to you hot from East London, where it's actually quite cold. So there was so much information to get through on this one. And I went into the research on this one and I went into the research on this case honestly with an open mind. I didn't really know the story that well but it looks like there are a decent number of people out there who think that Scott Peterson was indeed wrongfully convicted. So I figured there must be something in it. Maybe as many of his defenders say Scott Peterson had been convicted based on emotion and rage stirred up by the media and not by any real evidence. Maybe he was innocent, but just a deeply, deeply unlucky man whose pregnant wife had been murdered, and the circumstances just so happened to paint him in a very bad light. I even wondered if perhaps, say he was guilty, but that maybe there hadn't

been a strong enough prosecutorial case against him. So maybe his guilt hadn't been proven beyond a reasonable doubt in court. And so the jury had been wrong to convict him. Like I said, I didn't really have a strong opinion before going into it. I know what I think now. But over the next two episodes, we're going to try and be as even-handed as we possibly can. And let's see what we all think at the end. And let's try not to give ourselves hernias in the process. So our story today begins on the 24th of December 2002, which is of course Christmas

Eve. And this Christmas Eve was in Modesto, California. Scott Peterson said that his wife Lacey woke up at about 7.30am and headed downstairs to have breakfast. He then joined her between 8 and 8.30am. He had a bowl of cereal that Lacey had picked up at Trader Joe's the day before. Cinnamon puffins. Are they puffins shaped? Maybe. I don't know. I don't know. Do you know what? In all the hours of research I put into this, I didn't look up. Well, when we go to our North American tour, we'll find out in Trader Joe's. Cinnamon puffins. No, don't ruin the mystery.

No, I'm going to. They're not. They're not puffin-shaped. Are they like Rice Krispie-shaped? No, they're just like cinnamon grahams. They've just got a puffin on the front of the box. I'm disgusted. So Scott sits there, eats his cinnamon, not puffin-shaped puffins,

and he watches some TV with his wife. They happen to be watching Lacey's favourite tax avoider, Martha Stewart. And Martha Stewart, according to Scott, was talking about meringues. The entire timeline that you are about to hear, that we are going to lay out for you, is according to Scott Peterson. And if you're like, why are you giving so many random details, like cinnamon puffins and Martha Stewart meringues? Well, it's because that is exactly what Scott would later tell the police about how his morning unfolded.

So Scott says that Lacey told him that she was going to make some fancy French toast for their Christmas breakfast the next morning. And that she needed to go to the shop and pick up the ingredients because it needed to marinate overnight. She also told Scott that she was going to mop the floor, walk the dog and make gingerbread biscuits. Then that evening they were planning to head over to Lacey's parents house for Christmas Eve dinner. A big schedule for a woman who was eight and a half months pregnant. And what about Scott? Well he was going to spend his day playing golf. Now, if you look into this case, even at a cursory glance, you will see that a lot of people give him a hard time for this. They're like, what the hell is he doing going off to play golf, leaving pregnant Lacey all alone on Christmas Eve? But to be honest, Lacey is definitely a type A personality. She loves

cooking. She loves like having a beautiful house she loves the holidays so i can kind of see lacy just kind of wanting scott out of the way out from underneath her feet so that she can just get on with her like holiday prep list i don't really think that him going to play golf in and of itself was that big a deal no how many people take themselves off to the pub on christmas eve Yeah, exactly, exactly. How many people in this country wake up on Christmas Day with a savage hangover because they went out to the pubs on Christmas Eve? Like, I don't think it's that big a deal. It's the tradition to not be able to see properly on Christmas morning.

Precisely. Which is why we all start drinking at nine. So, before Scott left, he said that he filled up the mop bucket for Lacey because apparently she couldn't lift it up to the sink. He then loaded three garden parasol umbrellas that he wanted to store at his workshop into the back of his truck. A neighbour spotted him and waved hello. Lacey was mopping as Scott left at about 10 o'clock. Scott later on gives a few different times for when he left that particular morning, but we're pretty sure that about 10 o'clock is the most accurate for reasons that we will come on to. On his way to the golf course, Scott stopped at his workshop slash office,

which was about 10 minutes drive from the Petersons' home. Scott was an agricultural salesman, selling everything from tools to manure, so this unit was set up for his work things. But why was he heading there on Christmas Eve? Well, it seems that the world of agricultural equipment sales does not stop for the celebration of the birth of baby Jesus. Apparently, Scott received a call from his boss at 10.08am as he was leaving his home to hit the holes.

When he arrived at his office, Scott checked his inbox and sent an email replying to his boss. He spent about 25 minutes at his office in total, during which time he checked his emails and googled instructions on how to assemble a woodworking tool called a mortiser that he had recently purchased. And it was during this time that Scott decided that that day it was far too cold to go golfing after all. So he figured he'd go fishing instead.

Now I'm not a golfer, and nor am I a fisherwoman, but I can't help but think that standing on a golf course, wearing like a sexy argyle sweater and a nice big coat and gloves and a hat, is probably a bit warmer than getting wet and wild on a boat. Whatever we might think, though, Scott says that he had just bought a brand new boat and reckoned that this was the perfect chance to test it out. So he hooked up this 14 foot aluminium boat to his truck and hit the road. And boy did he hit it hard because he drove 90 miles from his office to the San Francisco Bay. A journey that would have taken at least an hour and a half. Now again, I'm no

watery activity expert, but I did take a look at a map, and there looks to be a lot of freshwater lakes in and around the Modesto area. But instead of visiting any of these, Scott drove 90 miles to go fishing. And maybe, just maybe, driving that far for a bit of fishing may not be weird to you Americans with all of your lands and your big cars and your big roads. But on Christmas Eve, when he and Lacey had plans that night, everyone's on the road on Christmas Eve. Yeah. That's mad. And that's the thing.

You could argue that maybe he's just like, fuck it, I do have to go to my in-laws tonight, so I'm going to go drive 90 miles to go fishing. But it does seem crazy. But we don't know many things. I know that San Francisco is fucking cold. I do know that. And I also know that saltwater, like the saltwater in the San Francisco Bay. And unlike in all of those freshwater lakes in and around the Modesto area. Saltwater corrodes aluminium.

Which is what his boat was made of. So Scott Peterson, a man who had been fishing his whole life, took the wrong kind of boat to fish in the San Francisco Bay and didn't remember in the whole 90 miles he was driving on his own. And he had been fishing since he was a child. Surely he would have known that. I mean, maybe he just forgot. Maybe he was a child. Surely he would have known that. I mean, maybe he just forgot. Maybe he's an idiot. Who knows? In any case, Scott Peterson went to the San Francisco Bay,

and at 12.54 that afternoon, Scott paid for parking at the Berkeley Marina. Meanwhile, back at the Peterson home in Modesto, at 10.18am, so not long after Scott had left Lacey mopping, Karen Severus, a neighbour, had found the Peterson's golden retriever, McKenzie, wandering around in the street with his leash on. Karen got hold of McKenzie and put him back in the Peterson's back garden

and closed the gate behind her and then went about her day. Just after 2pm, so a little over an hour after Scott had arrived at Berkeley Marina, he wrapped things up and headed home. And that struck me as not being a particularly long time on the water for a man who'd just driven 90 miles to get to San Francisco Bay. And some places report that he was fishing for an hour.

Like even Rolling Stone, who did like a huge long form article on this said he was fishing for 78 minutes because they're using the parking time and the time that his mobile phone left the marina but like that's not true because if you think about the time that he arrived the time that it would have taken for him to unhook his boat from his truck, get that boat down the ramp into the water, and then get to where he fished about two miles away from the marina that he admitted to, and the time it would have taken for him to get back to the dock, hook his boat back up to the truck, and then leave, he probably had 20 to 30 minutes tops in the water. Scott would later say that the reason he was in the water

for such a short amount of time was because he'd left his saltwater lures in his truck when he was sat in his very much freshwater boat. So he does know what saltwater is. Yep. And he said that he tried for a bit with the wrong type of lures but he got a bit cold, he wasn't catching anything so he just gave up and left.

And as Scott left the marina he very quickly got stuck in some heavy holiday traffic and at 2 15 he called lacey and left the following message okay beautiful i just left a message at home uh 2 15 i live in berkeley i won't be able to get to the villa farms to get that basket for papa i was hoping you would get this message and go on out there. I'll see you in a bit, sweetie. Love you. Bye. A lot to unpack there. Before we go on, let's just clear one thing up.

The basket that he's referring to in this message is a fruit basket that Lacey and her sister Amy had ordered for their granddad for Christmas. So he's just saying, I haven't done it. The night before Christmas Eve, Scott and Lacey had gone to the salon where Amy, Lacey's sister, worked as a hairdresser and got Scott's haircut. After the trim, Amy had then taught Lacey how to curl her hair with straightness. And it was then that Amy remembered that she needed to go and pick up the fruit basket the following day, to which, brother-in-law of the year, Scott said that she didn't need to worry he would do it for her. But he doesn't. No, he doesn't.

But let's discuss the call because, yeah, like Hannah said, there's a lot to unpack there. And to me, honestly, and this is a personal opinion, maybe people have different opinions. To me, honestly, it seems rehearsed and incredibly cringeworthy. I don't think it sounds like a natural call. Firstly, he's calling to tell Lacey that he's going to be late on Christmas Eve when they have plans that night to go to her parents' house. And he's also telling her that she now needs to go out after the incredibly busy day that she's had in Christmas Eve traffic to go and get the basket that he said he would get but that he's fucked up and he fucked up because he decided to drive for a three-hour round trip to go fishing for 20 minutes there's no sort of contrition there's no sorry there's no like awkwardness you would have

when you have to tell somebody something that you fucked up you know there's no sort of like tail between his legs voice in that message. The chirpiness just sounds a bit off, like given the context of what he's actually saying. I also think it's weird that he doesn't give an estimate of when he'll actually be home. And also there's no explanation of why he's in Berkeley. Because he just says on the call, I'm just leaving Berkeley now. But when did he tell Lacey that he was going to Berkeley he decided to go fishing there at the very last minute when he was already at his office

in his own words Lacey thought that he was going golfing much closer to home maybe he just forgot maybe he forgot that he didn't tell her maybe you know this guy everything just falls out of his head like a sieve. I don't know. But in this message, he doesn't explain why he's in Berkeley, just that he's leaving. And it just strikes me as a little bit odd. This is the argument that you will come up against in this case time and time again. Perhaps we are reading too much into it. Maybe he's just a real dickhead.

And maybe he would never care about picking up a fruit basket. Maybe that was the nature of their relationship. Maybe he never apologized. was just like this is the way it is exactly i think you know we're looking at it from the point of view of people who wouldn't if i had to tell somebody i'd done something wrong i wouldn't deliver a message like that but maybe he is just a dickhead yeah and that's why he says it i think i mean we will go on to discuss this at length I don't believe for a second that he's not a dickhead oh I don't think it's a defense like what so many people are just like well yeah he's a horrible person the end yeah anyway the call we think is weird let's accept it and use it for what it is useful for which is the time stamp that it gives us in our timeline. The call and the tower it pinged off do place Scott near the Berkeley Marina at 2.15pm. At 3.25pm, Scott stopped to refill his

truck at a Chevron petrol station. And at 3.52pm, having heard nothing from Lacey, Scott called her again, but she still wasn't picking up her phone. From the petrol station, it would have taken Scott about 50 minutes, 5-0, to drive back to his office workshop, and he did, indeed, arrive back there at about 4.15 in the afternoon. Once he was at his office-slash-workshop-slash-spade-emporium, he noticed that a fax had come through about a shipment, so he stopped to read it. He also unhooked his boat, put everything away and left to head home at about 4.30pm. But oddly, despite having both hooked up and unhooked his boat from his truck,

and having loaded and unloaded his truck with all of his fishing equipment, apart from his truck and having loaded and unloaded his truck with all of his fishing equipment apart from his saltwater lures obviously he did all of that at his office slash workshop he seemingly forgot all about the three huge parasols that were sat in the bed of his truck he had wanted to leave them at work but he forgot and he returned home with all of them jangling around on the bed of his truck. You would notice. Yeah. And we'll come back to the parasols, I think next week. So just, you know, hold them in your mind. So when Scott got to the house, there was no sign of Lacey. But he still wasn't worried. Lacey's car was in the driveway. But her mum Sharon had probably just come to the house and got Lacey. But he still wasn't worried. Lacey's car was in the driveway, but her mum Sharon had probably

just come to the house and got Lacey in her own car and taken her back to their house to prep dinner. Scott then found Mackenzie the dog in the back garden with his leash still on. That was probably a bit weirder, but maybe Lacey had just forgotten to take it off in all the Christmas rush. I do find it weird that Scott just assumes that Lacey is at her parents' house and that he doesn't like text her or call her now he's home, you know, just to check, especially seeing as he hasn't heard from her all day. The only thing I could put this down to, to give Scott any benefit of the doubt, is that maybe he's like, she's probably pissed at me.

But not that worried that he didn't stop at the office and like check his fax and do but not that worried that he didn't stop at the office and like check his facts and do all of that before he came home and obviously not that worried that he calls her or texts her to apologize but maybe he's like you know she's pissed at me let me just let her cool down at her parents house and i'll just head over there later anyway scott who was probably wet and probably pretty gross from being on the water all day then took off all of his clothes and stuck them in the washing machine to run a load he then emptied the mop bucket that was sat in the kitchen grabbed a slice of leftover pizza

and a glass of milk and headed upstairs for a shower that is disgusting it just makes my stomach i've spoken before yeah about how i feel about adults drinking milk. I agree. It is not an accompaniment to a meal. That's the worst thing I can possibly think of. It makes me sick. It's so gross. You don't believe in ghosts? I get it. Lots of people don't.

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to help someone I've never even met. But a couple of years ago, I came across a social media post by a person named Loti. It read in part, Three years ago today that I attempted to jump off this bridge, but this wasn't my time to go. A gentleman named Andy saved my life. I still haven't found him.

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Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts or Spotify. So, some people, unlike Hannah who is very distracted by the the milk situation some people find the clothes washing a bit suspect people are like why does he do this why does he get home immediately take off all of his clothes in the kitchen and stick them in the washing i do that if i was soaking wet um i would do that too in salt water as well definitely if i'd been on a boat all day and apparently scott also had a habit of doing this because um in his job he works with a lot of chemicals and so he would usually come home every night take off all of his clothes and put them in the washing machine straight away seeing as he did have a pregnant wife at home. Post shower Scott started on another

slice of pizza and he noticed that there were new unheard messages on his home answering machine. The little red light of times of yore was flashing. The first message was the one that he had left Lacey about the fruit basket, being like, I'm a terrible husband. I haven't done it because I've been taking care of my own fishy needs. The second message was from Lacey's stepdad, Ron. Ron was asking Lacey to bring some whipped cream over to their house that evening for the pie. So now, at 5.17pm, about 45 minutes after he got home, Scott Peterson thought he'd better call Lacey's parents and ask them if Lacey was there. Which begs the question, once again, why doesn't he call Lacey? But in any case,

he doesn't. Sharon, Lacey's mum, picks up the phone and she told Scott that Lacey wasn't with them. So Scott explained that Lacey's car was still in their driveway and that he'd found Mackenzie the dog with his leash still on. So where could Lacey be? It was then that Sharon started to panic and she told Scott that she and Ron would call Lacey's friends and all of the local hospitals. Maybe Lacey had gone into labour and she hadn't been able to call any of them. Scott tells Sharon that he'll start knocking on neighbours' doors and go to the park where Lacey usually walked the dog. But not willing to take any chances, Lacey's stepdad Ron called 911 at 5.47pm.

The police met Scott, Lacey's parents and a group of Lacey's friends and neighbours who had come out to help directly at the park. Everyone assumed that something must have happened there if Lacey walked Mackenzie. Maybe she'd fallen over and the dog had just run home. If so, she might be lying hurt or unconscious somewhere in the freezing dark. The police even had a helicopter join the search, checking the aerial view for any sign of Lacey. With enough hands on deck at the park, Detective Al Brachini asked Scott if he could go and look at their house. In the house, Brachini found Lacey's keys, her wallet and her sunglasses and a bag in her wardrobe.

And even stranger than that, Lacey's phone was in her car. What eight and a half month pregnant woman goes out walking the dog without her phone? Not one single one. They are quite forgetful though, pregnant ladies. Maybe. Maybe she just got lost. That night, Scott was questioned by Al Brachini, the detective at the Modesto Police Department. The whole interview is over an hour long, so we're not going to play it all for you here.

We'll leave a link in the sources if you're absolutely desperate. It is worth watching. We've selected a few snippets for you, which we think give you a really good idea of the tone of the entire hour-long conversation. Pretty much got on with'm going to do. Let's just go over what we already talked about so I can make some notes. See if you remember something that you don't. Maybe you don't really remember.

So, today... Just tell me about the morning. I don't know what time we got up. Probably Lacey got up and went and I assume that she had some cereal for breakfast. Each Friday she wakes up, otherwise she gets sick because she's pregnant. I laid around in bed longer. I got up at 8 o'clock probably or so. Showered.

We were watching her favorite show, Martha Stewart. Watched a little bit of that. You didn't watch the whole thing though? No. Remember what part you saw? I mean, I don't know what hit him. Well, it could be the old time. I don't know. I don't care. I don't think it's of some sort. They're talking about what to do with the

ring. Um, and I can't remember. Your house, you had the converted garage area. Is that your TV room like? Yeah. Is that where you were then? Did you eat any breakfast? Yeah, I ate cereal. Okay, and then what? When did you realize you were going to go fishing?

Oh, that was a morning decision. Oh, it was a morning decision? I wanted to go play golf at the club or go fishing. Okay. It seemed too cold to go play the club, so I decided to, you know, buy a dirty or whatever than that. Mm-hmm. I told her what she was going to do for the day, and...

Okay, so she told you what she was going to do for the day. Yeah. And what was that? She was going to do for the day? Yeah. And what was that? She was going to finish cleaning the house. Like I said, she was walking to the kitchen floor. Take the dog for a walk, and then she was going to the store to buy for Christmas morning breakfast tomorrow. And that was going to be a ball prep. So that was her. She was prepping for breakfast, and she was going to be a involved prep. So that was her afternoon was prepping

breakfast and she's going to make gingerbread cookies for us tonight. What was she mommying? The tile in the entryway area. The entry of the front door or the entry of your little interior converted? Oh, the, well, not the front door, but that back door that we came in. Right, where the mop was outside of it? No, no, no. Oh, where your dogs went out to your right?

Okay, if you have the converted garage, right, and then you have the kitchen, then you have a room with two chairs in it. Right. Yeah, that room have the kitchen. Then you have a room with two chairs in it. Right. Yeah, that room. Then the kitchen. I don't know how far she planned to go. She had me put the front door? Yeah, she's, you know, I was pregnant.

I can't pick it up or anything, so I filled it up for her. And put it in a, I guess, a central place. How did it, did you move it back after or when you come home or how did it get outside? Yeah. So you put it out there? Uh huh. The dog, the cat ran in. Yeah, she wasn't about to live in it, had he? So when you left, do you remember what you were wearing? Black pants, white long-sleeve top.

The kind of buttons or? No, just like a long-sleeve t-shirt kind of thing, but, you know, didn't say anything on it or. Jacket or shoes? No, no shoes? Do you notice her jacket, if her jacket was there? Or did she wear it, like if she went walking at 10 o'clock or 9.30? She just steals my stuff. She uses your stuff?

Yeah, you know, doesn't return to stuff, so I don't know. You don't know? I don't know. She could have had her or mine or something, I don't know. How about shoes? Does she have a certain kind of shoes that she walks in room? Yeah, I use a pair of white tennis shoes. Do you know, did you remember if they were there or not? Um, Alistair and I looked for them in their normal place, and she's got a typewriter and a wet bar.

Uh-huh. Um, they were not there, but we didn't look further, so they could be in the house. They weren't where they normally left. You saw mine where those were? Those were the normal people. Okay, so then about 9.30 you left. And you drove your four-door truck. And you went over to your shop.

Right. What did you do over there? I assembled my mortiser. What are mortisers? It's a woodworking tool to make tables. I think you saw it on the trailer there. Yeah, big. Yeah. I I just got that so I assembled it checked my email

sent one email then put the boat up and went who'd you send the email to? to Eric Van Enis, my boss. The happy holiday email he left me a message on my phone this morning. Eric Van Enis? Mm-hmm. I spelled Enis.

I-N-N-I-S. You know his phone number? Sure. Did you tell him about this yet? No. Is that 5591? No, this is going to be a number in Portugal. In Portugal? That's where your boss is?

Yeah. Access international email 011. Country code is 35. The number is 191-9835253. That's his phone number. Does he have a home? Do you have that? I don't have a phone number, friend. Do you know what his email was? It's E. Van Enus. I don't know.

I don't know. That's what it is. Does he live in Portugal? Yeah. Yeah. In Portugal. Speak English? Yeah.

Very well. Okay. It's a melting deck. All right. OK, so you assembled this. What was the thing you assembled called? Called a mortiser. For mortise and tenon joints. Where'd you get that at?

Ordered it online. At an eBay auction, actually. Is that for home or for work? It's for my home. I do it online. Is that for home or for work? It's for my home. Like woodwork? Yeah. You do a little bit of that? Okay, the facts you got, maybe you hadn't got it yet.

Yeah, I guess not. I don't know. I was on the camera when I picked it up. I remember that Detective Bo was right on the 26th, No, it's not. I don't know. I can't remember when I picked it up. I remember that it said the boat was arriving in 26 and I wasn't happy about that better than that. May have been when I got back from the office. Okay, then you hooked your boat up. And'd extrapolate what time I got that deal. Noon, is that right?

Yeah, that was 01. Which one is it there? You know it has two times? Oh, okay. Which one's right? I don't know. Tuesday. Time, 1254 on December 21st, five bucks, expires, okay, expires 1159 p.m. Tuesday. Okay, so you got there at one o'clock. I got there at one?

Yeah, about one. And I passed you to at least an hour and a half. Yeah. Yeah, okay, so in 12, it'll be 1130 about. Yeah's probably longer than that probably longer than that okay did you drive straight there I did he sighs

did you hear him sigh he fucking sighs when he's asked the first question he goes it wasn't even like that. It was worse. It was like, ugh. Like, he's fucking, he honestly looks so bored throughout the whole entire fucking interview.

Honestly, you have to go and watch the interview to really understand. We are an audio format. We will play you the clips. The quality is so-so. We've tried our best to enhance it. But you have to watch this to see the body language to see the way he presents himself um because to say that scott peterson was relaxed during this hour over an hour long interview on the night that his pregnant wife

is missing would be a ginormous understatement he has his hands in his pockets he's slouched back in his chair he's drinking a coffee he's straight up chilling i mean it's contempt isn't it like it's if he if he was at school he would be told to sit up yes exactly exactly there is something so jarring about watching him you just want to sort of slap him around the ear and i think one of the other things is if you watch the interview there's a bit before the detective walks in where Scott's just sat in the interview room on his own. And I thought that was a particularly telling part of the video because he's just sat there looking at his phone, looking around, drinking his coffee. He looks like he's waiting for a fucking bus or something.

I would just feel like you might expect frantic pacing, furious texting, you know, something that looks like you're worried about your missing wife i feel like i look more worried when i don't know where my keys are then he looks you do i've seen it about where his pregnant wife is i just think like wouldn't you look like you're annoyed that you're stuck in the interview room rather than on the streets screaming yeah for lacey and you heard it yourself just then in the clip the tone of the interview room rather than on the streets screaming for Lacey. And you heard it yourself just then in the clip, but the tone of the interview from Scott's answers doesn't really sound like a man whose eight-and-a-half-month pregnant wife is missing. And we're not going to examine the use of the past tense to describe Lacey or whatever

because it's simplistic and we're better than that. What we're asking is where is the urgency, where is the panic, where is the fear, where is the anxiety? He so calmly answers all of the questions that Detective Bricchini is asking in painstaking detail. He sits and gives the policeman his boss's details to prove that they were emailing that morning and he casually explains what a mortiser is and then he replies when the detective asks him questions about fishing why isn't he asking why any of that matters when his wife is out there yeah let's listen to another bit of this interview okay then you got home then what how'd you go what door do you go in when uh what i would call our back door which is that French door where my shoes wrap.

You see your dog out there? Yeah. Yeah, he's there. And he still has his leash on? Mm-hmm. So I took that off, obviously. What'd you do with it? Put it on the picnic table.

Is that front storage where I want it? Yes. What did you do when you go in? The dog and the cat followed me in so I dumped out that mop water and the cat went over to it. Where was the mop bucket? If you remember our front door? There's a little white piece of wood piece

built in just in front of that. Okay, so your dog and cat Camille went through the doors and your cat goes over to this bucket. Yeah. And was he going to drink out of it? Looks like it to me. So you just picked it up and walked it out the front door then? No, that little side door. It was right outside of it.

And then you just set it out there? I don't think you set it there. Then what did you do? Put my clothes in the washer. Took out those rags, threw my clothes in there. Were you calling for Lacey? Oh, yeah, of course. But she wasn't home? No.

I assume she's at her mom's. You put your jeans, your blue T-shirt, anything else in there? I think that green pullover was in there, too, wasn't it? Yeah, I think so. Did you start the washer? Yeah. Did you put soap? Mm-hmm. Okay, then what?

Grab some pizza from the fridge. Put the box out? Yeah, put it on the counter like a lunch. A glass of milk. And we go in the shower. He had a glass of milk? No, a small one, yeah. Okay, then you put it in a glass, yeah.

How many pieces did you have? I think just one full piece, then I'd have to buy another one. Did you take a shower? Mm-hmm. I had to take the pizza and hit it with me to start the shower. Did you call for mom? After I got out of the shower

with the clothes on. That's when I checked the messages. Were there any? Yeah. Yours? Mine, number three. Two for me, one from Ron and her stepfather asking for whipped cream. We came over and that's when I said, hey, where?

She's calling me for whipped cream. Did you raise them? No. The one from Iran, do you know if that was before yours or after yours? I believe it was after. Okay, so then you called over her mom? That's right. Had they heard from her? No.

Not all day. Not all day. Was that unusual or not? No. I think we were supposed to be there at 6 or 6.30. What's Lacey's mom's name? Sharon. Sharon Rocha.

Ron Gransky. Okay. Are they together? No. You call them never been married, but common law marriage, that's what it's called, lived together for 15 years or whatever. All right. Well, that's what's going to happen.

But common law marriage, she called him Ron. That's what you're asking. So you guys were supposed to be there, you were supposed to go to dinner there tonight at 630 or last night at 630? Right. Okay, so you told Sharon or did you talk to Ron? Talked to, um, talked to Monica and Sharon. And what, what, how did you place it there? Don't we know?

I had to listen to this hour-plus interview like three, four times during the course of this research. And the first time, first couple of times I watched it on normal speed. And then after that, I had to watch it on like 1.5 because Detective Albrechini is going so slowly. He leaves huge pauses. And if you watch it and listen to it, you can really see that he isn't scared to hold the silence. And in my old job, where I spend a lot of time interviewing people, one of the key things you're taught during that process in the training is silence is golden. Don't be afraid of it. Because when you're silent, the other person that you're interviewing will usually fill it and may give away something that they don't plan to. It's like a classic tactic. And I have no doubt that this is exactly what Bricchini is trying to do.

I actually saw some really weird analysis from people being like, why is Brichini being so friendly to him? Why is he going so slowly? Why does he look like this lumbering police officer? I'm not saying Brichini does everything right in this investigation, but you have to understand that I don't think that's what he's doing. I think he's already very suspicious of Scott, and he's trying to gauge a reaction from this man.

It's a technique. 100%. And I think he's trying to see why every time he's quiet, Scott doesn't interrupt him. He doesn't ask what any of the questions Bikini is asking him are relevant right now. He doesn't say, what are you doing to find my wife Lacey? And Scott doesn't pipe in with ideas. He doesn't give them theories on where they should look

or who else they should talk to or who else they should call. Scott's just happy to calmly sit there and give more and more detailed answers about the mundane nonsense about his day. I mean, it is just mind boggling to listen to that clip because he's talking about the cat, the mop bucket, the soap in the washing machine, the pizza, common law marriage. Like it just goes on and on and on. And he volunteers unnecessary information when it's not required.

Like, when Bricchini is like, are they married? Talking about Lacey's mum and her stepdad. He'd just be like, no. Why is he like, oh, well, you know, they've been together so long, so it's like a common law. Like, why? Why are you doing that? To me, it's really quite indicative of deception i would say it's pretty mind-numbing stuff but scott's fine uh and for over an hour he

just sits there answers everything sipping his coffee no sign of frustration or anything like that no inkling that he feels like the police are wasting his time or their time in the investigation and when you're watching it you do get the feeling that scott knows that brockini is suspicious of him it's like he thinks that if he's amped up and tries to get out of there in a hurry it'll make him look guilty that's what i think i think he's overly cooperating 100 and that's what brockini says about him later i I think, I really think that Scott thinks if he's just like, let me out of here, I need to get out, I need to get out, that's what's going to make them suspicious.

But I really think it's the opposite. Scott obviously thinks that by being amiable and cooperative and helpful and friendly, he's making a good impression and showing that he has nothing to hide. But if I was innocent, I'm not sure I'd be that bothered about what the police thought of me. I would probably be screaming and shouting about my wife there's also one point in this interview where Bruchini says that Scott's call to Lacey wasn't made at 2.15 and Scott immediately gets his phone out of his pocket to call his home voicemail to prove that it was indeed made at 2.15

so that call that he makes about the fruit basket. And if you remember the fruit basket call, he also starts it by saying, hi, it's 2.15, which like, fine, maybe some people do that, maybe people don't. But he's very, very perturbed when Bruchini says that that call was made much later. He doesn't ask why any of that matters right now. He doesn't brush past it. And also he knows exactly what time it was made. If something so catastrophic happened that I came home and my pregnant wife was

missing, I wouldn't remember what time I made that call. And I wouldn't even think about what relevance that had to that day. I would just be thinking I came home at 4.30 and she was gone. But no, Scott gets his phone out, calls calls his home phone and then passes the phone to brockini so that he can listen to the voicemails that were left on the peterson's home phone and i'm not even kidding you there is no point us playing that clip here because it's just three minutes of silence it's just three minutes with brockini sat there with the phone to his ear and the entire time scott just sits there looking at him waiting. And you know, it's that look of like, you know, when you're right and you know you have proof that you're right. He sort of sat there like, yeah, OK, good.

Got it. I told you. And it's just it's shocking because nothing happens during that time. He just sits there, watches him as a detective listens to the voicemail. I'd be tearing my face off because I'd be like are you fucking kidding me why aren't you out there looking for my wife but Scott's silence really points to for me at least the fact that he's far more concerned with proving his innocence and establishing an alibi for himself than finding Lacey at that point

just to eliminate you as a suspect you'd be willing to take finding Lacey at that point. I believe they're accurate. No, I certainly don't. Wouldn't be now, it would be, you know, a day or two, maybe even about it. No, it's just like the next step in this thing. Really, what's left is the flyers, the canvas tomorrow, the media coverage. What concerns me the most is the fact that your dog came home with a leash on. That bothers me. I mean, there's no question. Yeah. What concerns me most is doing anything I can to further progress. I appreciate that. And I

don't want you to hold it against me. I mean, sometimes I hate asking. You've got to do it. But I do. I really do have to do it. I mean, I understand. I'm glad you have a strong support system. And I'll give you my numbers and my cards, but there's not a lot more we can do right now

other than canvas. But we can do a lot more we can do right now other than cameras. Well, we can do a lot. Do you have any questions? No, I mean I've asked you a couple times what to do. So I have the answers to that. So are we going to go do it? I was hoping, yeah. There's, you know, all we can do now is make people aware of the problem, the situation,

and hope that if somebody saw something or knows something. I have a question about resources available. You saw my mother-in-law tonight. You saw some of my wife's friends, my son-in-law, counseling, that kind of thing. Yeah. Can you give us the numbers? No, no, I can give you those numbers.

I just don't know. I mean, you're probably not going to get any answers today. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, but... Yeah. It's Christmas. I mean, it's Christmas. Yeah, of course. Well, and there's no need to qualify.

Today. We finally see in the next days. Yeah, I agree. Yeah, I'll give you those numbers. I will. That's my number, my cell phone number. I'll get you the number to the services.

Now, where do you want to go? Oh, physically, back to my home. Okay, give me one second. Hopefully they're done when they're there. Burkini is so obviously suspicious of Scott, and as well he should be. After all, he is the husband, and they usually do it. But his questions are mild, they're not particularly accusatory, and he explains why he has to ask Scott about these things.

He's not openly questioning him like a suspect. He's very like, good cop, good cop. So Scott's answers, by the same token, are incredibly interesting, because to me, he sounds like a suspect when he's replying. He gives very short answers, doesn't offer up any additional information, he doesn't speculate, he doesn't have any ideas theories anything about what could have happened to his wife or where she might be so he'll answer questions about literally everything else under the sun in mind-numbing detail apart from where

his wife might be he has no idea no clue no thoughts no suggestions no urgency it's really surprising and again it makes him sound more like someone who is protecting themselves as opposed to someone who is trying to find their missing wife an unborn child and look before all the scott defenders jump down our throat i'm not saying that we should judge a person's guilt wholly on their behaviour. That would be wrong and stupid and reductive. And something we've spoken out about many times. Precisely, precisely. But it's also not a factor that can simply be ignored

as totally unimportant. And yes, not everyone reacts in the same way when they are under stress. Again, like Hannah said, that's something we've banged on about on this podcast for years. But the fact that Scott has no questions, no thoughts, no theories, no urgency, and seemingly no interest in what the police's plan is to find Lacey, to me, is really, really hard to just sweep away. I'm not saying he should be sat there crying and

hysterical. Being stoic and being calm and being focused is absolutely like a reasonable response he could have. But the fact that he is so disinterested is the thing that's surprising to me. And if you're going to make the point that maybe he is just more of a stoic person, well, that notion becomes quite hard to stand by later, but I put a pin in it for now. During this interview, the police asked Scott if he would do a polygraph, to which he agrees. But the next day, Christmas Day, just 30 minutes before the polygraph was scheduled to take place, Scott called to cancel, saying that his dad had told him not to do it. Can you imagine being a polygraph technician and you get a call on Christmas Eve

being like, sorry, Bob, I know it's Christmas Christmas but we need you at the station tomorrow I would be fucked off but then he doesn't have to go in and get cancelled hooray Merry Christmas one and all and to be fair to Scott because we won't be accused of being heavy-handed on this show I wouldn't take a polygraph either no I wouldn't fucking take a polygraph so we're not going to examine Scott's decision on that. What did strike us as a little bit more odd was the fact that two days after his wife and his child had gone missing, Scott Peterson already had a lawyer. Again, what that means is that he's taking proactive steps to protect himself while taking no obvious proactive steps to find Lacey. I completely understand why he gets a lawyer, why he gets one so quickly. Again, where are you finding a lawyer on Christmas Day? I don't know.

But he does it and that would be, I feel, less indicative of him probably having something to do with it if he was also being as proactive in finding his wife, which he doesn't seem to be doing. And I'll give you examples. Scott flatly refused to do any press conferences or media interviews to plead for tips and information appealing to anyone holding Lacey to let her come home. Everyone does that.

It's like the standard thing. He's the husband. Like if she wasn't married, I understand her family doing it, but he is the husband. And she was pregnant. She was eight and a half months pregnant. Like her family doing it, but he is the husband. And she was pregnant. She was eight and a half months pregnant. Like, there couldn't be a better narrative than the husband going on TV and begging for his wife's safe return. Again, I'm not asking for you to go on the media and cry and sob and all of that shenanigans.

But he doesn't do it. Lacey's family did it. He left it all to them. And perhaps you could argue that that sort of thing isn't everyone's style, but surely in such an unimaginably nightmare situation, you would do anything and everything to find your wife, including something you don't really want to do, like appear on TV. But if anyone questioned Scott's behaviour openly, Sharon and Ron, Lacey's parents, defended him 100%. Sharon even said that if people knew how much Scott loved behaviour openly, Sharon and Ron, Lacey's parents, defended him 100%. Sharon even said that

if people knew how much Scott loved her daughter, they wouldn't suggest such things. And despite Scott's camera shyness, by this point the media was well and truly all over this case. It was at this time in the early noughties that news channels were starting to switch to the 24-hour rolling news model that we're all so used to today. So they needed stories, and this one was perfect. 26-year-old Lacey was beautiful. We'll post a picture of her, obviously, on our social media. You can find her on Google.

She's absolutely stunning. She has a perfect smile, adorable dimples, just like this ideal kind of all-American wife and mother-to-be. How could this pregnant woman, who seemingly had it all, with her perfect house in one of the nicest neighbourhoods in Modesto and her handsome husband, have vanished like this? And at Christmas, no less. And so, over the coming months and years,

the case of Lacey Peterson would dominate the headlines across the US, like a celebrity story. And in classic celebrity style, the scandals began. On the 30th of December 2002, six days after Lacey vanished, there was a seismic shift in the case. A 27-year-old woman called Amber Frye called the police, claiming to be Scott Peterson's girlfriend. Al Brichini couldn't believe his ears. But boy did she have a story to tell. In October 2002,

Scott Peterson was in Fresno for work. So that's two months before Lacey goes missing. During this trip, he hit on a woman at the hotel bar. He was asking her about her favourite sex position. Yeah.

Who does that? Scott position. Yeah. Yeah. Who does that? Scott Peters. That's quite a stupid question. I know people talk to people in bars in the States, but it just, I can't. So this poor woman was called Sean Sibley. And she thought that Scott was cute,

but she had a fiancé and she wasn't interested in a hookup. But she told Scott that she did have a friend that he might quite like. That would be friendship over for me. Like, oh, this guy approached me in the bar and asked me if I like it doggy style or not, but you can have him. But it works. So on the 20th of November, while Lacey was at home, more than seven months pregnant,

Scott Peterson turned up at Amber Fry's door for a blind date. He clearly liked the look of tall, blonde Amber. And that night, they hit the town. They went for dinner, they did karaoke, they danced, and eventually they went back to Scott Peterson's hotel room that he had already set up with Champagne and Roses. Confident. Confident in his chirpsing abilities, evidently.

And also a woman he'd never seen before but he i think he was probably like whatever the situation is i'm probably gonna have sex tonight or and also if you don't paul no one knows this is true this is true so scott told amber that he was single and looking for a relationship and amber was smitten and who can blame her scott would take her out to new and exciting places. He'd call her every day. He'd even pick her two-year-old daughter up from school. He'd send her dozens of roses and even turn up with groceries to cook for her and her child. The three of them even went Christmas tree shopping together. It was everything that Amber wanted.

And as they set up and decorated the tree, Amber asked Scott if he had any kids of his own and if he'd ever been married or close to being married which like isn't that first date material the older you get the more baggage people have like and the thing is they're not that old like he's like 31 even still but still like that's like a standard question I feel like you would ask as adults at that point now i'm not trying to criticize amber here by saying like why is she bringing this up like you know after they've already known each other for a little bit of time i'm just saying that it does point in my opinion to a relationship that was moving extremely quickly like they're

getting a christmas tree and decorating it together at her house and she doesn't know if he's ever been married or has any kids and it also points to in Amber a woman who clearly wanted to make it work with this guy. But I'm not judging her again. Like he's attractive, he's charming, he's successful, he comes across a stable, he's doing everything that she wants. He's presenting himself very much as the guy that she wants. obviously she wants to make it work and i think that maybe she was even scared to ask these questions any sooner for fear of what she might have heard i understand when you're a woman and you've got a kid that you would be very concerned about that scaring people away and then you're like oh my god there's this man who isn't worried

that i have a kid that isn't his so fucking fucking batten down the hatches, lads. We're digging in. They say Hollywood is where dreams are made. A seductive city where many flock to get rich, be adored, and capture America's heart. But when the spotlight turns off, fame, fortune, and lives can disappear in an instant. When TV producer Roy Radin was found dead in a canyon near L.A. in 1983, there were many questions surrounding his death. The last person seen with him was Lainey Jacobs, a seductive cocaine dealer who desperately wanted to be part of the Hollywood elite. Together, they were trying to break into the movie industry. But things took a dark turn when a million dollars worth of cocaine and cash went missing.

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This is The Harvard Plan, a special series from the Boston Globe and WNYC's On The Media. To listen, subscribe to On The Media wherever you get your podcasts. But Amber needn't have worried about her kid in this situation scott said he'd never been married and that he didn't have any children but it didn't matter that she had a child he just didn't want any kids of his own he didn't mind other people's children at all and as she was being swept off her feet unbeknownst to amber a friend of hers had recognized the name Scott Peterson whilst Amber had been gushing about her new man and how wonderful he was and just to be clear this person recognizes the name Scott Peterson before Lacey goes missing because he meets her two months

before Lacey goes missing he this friend is just like I think I know a Scott Peterson who's an agricultural salesman it's not like he's seen him on the news. But this friend was extremely sure that the Scott Peterson they knew was definitely 100% married. So maybe it was just a weird coincidence. Obviously, it was not. Bingo. On the 8th of December, this friend told Sean Sibley, the woman from the hotel bar, who in turn called Scott and confronted him about the fact that he was in fact married. And during this conversation according to Sean Scott sobbed and cried and begged Sean to be allowed to tell Amber the news himself. So the next day Scott went to Amber's

house and told her that he had been married before but but that he had, quote, lost his wife. Oh my God, and that this was his first holidays without her. So just to be clear, this is happening on the 9th of December. That is two weeks before Lacey Peterson vanishes. That he is telling his girlfriend, Amber Fry, that he lost his wife. And that this is his first holidays without her. Amber would later say that when Scott told her this, he also said that it was too painful to talk about.

So she just assumed that when he said lost his wife, he meant that his wife had died. Anyone would assume that. That's what you mean when you say that. That's what that sentence means. Yeah, like lost her where? Like a fucking dog. Yeah, I left her at the hypermark.

Yeah. But why would Scott say this? Why would he say lost her where? Like a fucking dog? Yeah, left her at the hypermark. Yeah. But why would Scott say this? Why would he say lost his wife? Why not say that he separated or divorced? Lost her. It's so vague and it's such like odd phraseology. Why does he kill Lacey in this lie? To me, it sounds like a fantasy he has, right?

He just wants shot of that part of his life and i also think to scott being a widower is a lot more sympathetic and soulful than being a divorcee 100 that's what i think it is is because if someone dies there's nothing you can do about that and it's not your fault yeah if you're divorced you know takes you to tango exactly like it's, I 100% understand why he would say that. Yeah. But it also. And from the perspective of his personality type, not that it's a reasonable thing to do. No, exactly.

But also from the, him getting rid of Lacey in this lie. I mean, there's two ways. Either he knows he's going to dump Amber so it doesn't matter anyway. Or he's like, well, I'm never going to have to explain Lacey because I'm going to kill her I strongly suspect that it is a combination because um we'll come on to talk about the relationship between him and Amber a lot and I also want to make it clear at this point before people are sort of well actuallying me in the audience him and Amber only see each other a handful of times this isn't this sort of like a romance where they see each other daily or every weekend.

It's not this sort of fully fledged physical affair. They only see each other a few times, but it goes on all the way through to February. Right. And Lacey goes missing bang in the middle of that. So I just want to make it clear. They only see each other a few times, but they talk on the phone all the fucking time. Like every day scott calls her so coming back to the statement about him losing his wife a lot of people also point to this

statement by scott as proof of premeditation because he says it two weeks before lacey goes missing and it certainly looks bad but something that looks even weirder for me was that just before Scott had gone over to break this massive news to his girlfriend, amidst all the panic one would assume he must have been feeling because he's been caught out by Sean Sibley, he's having to go over to Amber and explain that he did indeed have a wife. But Scott, during this time, found himself the time to buy his aluminium boat. Literally, Sean calls him and tells him, then he googles boats, and then he goes to Amber's house to tell her the next day. And during this time, he also carried out some pretty serious fishing research,

which again, maybe that's how he unwinds, I don't know. But internet searches made from the Peterson home that day that Sean confronted him included things like boat plus ramp plus san francisco bay berkeley marina pacific nautical charts velocity maps for currents in san francisco bay and current maps for brooks island a small island in the bay this all points to a very detailed fishing trip plan that scott's coming up with you know two weeks before his wife goes missing and two weeks before he went on a fishing trip that he says later was a spur of the moment decision made on the day. And again, it's very interesting that he sat there doing all of this while he's over a barrel with Amber. So after Scott's revelations to Amber about his quote

unquote lost wife, Amber was deeply moved by this heartbreaking story and she asked Scott if he was sure that he was ready for a relationship with her. It's so manipulative. And he said that he was. He assured her that he was. And he proved it. On the 14th of December, Scott turned up at Amber's house with three dozen red roses and a bottle of champagne and then he took her out to a party meanwhile back in modesto lacey peterson went to a christmas party on her own knowing that he wouldn't be able to keep making excuses to see amber over the holidays that night scott told his girlfriend that he was going away until the new year first he was off to maine to be with his family and then he was heading to Europe for a bit he's so glam any particular part of Europe oh he he goes on to tell you all about that later

interesting Scott called Amber on the 23rd of December so Christmas Eve Eve saying that he had been duck hunting with his dad but he wasn't duck hunting with his dad in Maine he was actually in Modesto planning a trip to his wife's sister's hair salon for a trim. Over the next two days, Amber said that she didn't hear from Scott at all. This would have been Christmas Eve and Christmas Day. The day that he was fishing in San Francisco Bay and the next day that he was looking for his missing pregnant wife. But on the 26th of December, Amber thought that she would call him. She thought that

he was flying to Paris for his little Euro trip. And she was planning on just like leaving him a nice little voicemail, a nice romantic little voicemail for him to listen to when he landed. So she was shocked when he picked up the phone. And when she asked him where he was and why he wasn't on a plane to Paris, Scott said that he was actually in New York and that his plane had been delayed and that the airline had given him some money so that he could get a massage and a sandwich. And he does this whole show of how annoyed he is that his plane's been delayed and all of this. And I'm sure that a massage and a sandwich would have been exactly what Scott Peterson wanted at that point. Because of course, on the 26th of December, he was in fact up to his neck in a police investigation for his missing wife.

And I bring up this incident because there are so many like this. But this particular one shows you just how easily Scott Peterson lies. I think what happened is Amber caught him and Scott had forgotten that he had told her he was going to be on a plane. And he answers the phone and then he realises he made a mistake and he going to be on a plane and he answers the phone and then he realizes he made a mistake and he has to lie on the spot he lies so easily his lies are so detailed and they just roll right off the tongue for him and he stays so calm in all of these situations despite being in the middle of a massive fucking manhunt looking for Lacey in which he probably also knows that the police are looking right at him but even Amber was starting

to get suspicious now so she asked a police officer friend of hers to look into Scott and again this is crazy unbelievably Amber Frye hadn't seen any of the news about Lacey and Scott on TV so she had no idea who he really was and also remember he's not going on any of the cameras he's not allowing any pictures of him to be taken so she hasn't seen his face plastered about anywhere so she calls her friend and this police officer looks into it for her but he doesn't have to look very hard obviously because on the 29th of december her officer friend called amber and gave her the number for the modesto police department and told her to call them immediately. And Burkini sensed an opportunity was afoot. Amber had come straight to them. Scott had no idea that she knew anything. He really has so much contempt for Amber. When we listen to the

calls between him and Amber that take place, spoilers, you can really tell he thinks she's stupid. He is a man who thinks that he's smarter than everybody but he really really thinks that she is thick as shit i think he thinks everyone is thick as shit investigators asked amber to secretly start taping all of her phone conversations with scott the unsuspecting scott and as they were setting up amber's phone with the recorder, Scott actually called her. They're literally standing there and then the phone pops up with Scott calling her.

And he didn't stop. On the 31st of December, Lacey's friends and family held an emotional candlelight vigil for her in Modesto. Scott was there, but keeping quite low key. He didn't take the stage with his parents or Lacey's family to talk about her and pray for her safe return. He stayed in the crowd and the media are all over him. They constantly take pictures of him and these pictures ended up being splashed across the front pages of every newspaper the next morning

including the awkward photographs of him laughing at the vigil. And sure, his defenders will say that this proves nothing. They're one-off snapshots of the night and not indicative of his feeling towards Lacey at all. A lot of people nervously laugh. And sure, you're right. But when you listen to the call that Scott made to Amber Fry from the exact same vigil that exact same night,

well, the whole, here is just a guy who struggles to show his emotions. He's shy, he's stoic, he's struggling to know how to cope and act blah, blah, blah, blah. That whole idea falls a bit flat once you listen to this. Hello? Baby? Yes? Amber? Can you hear me? Yeah. You can? Yeah, hey. Oh my goodness.

That's my mom. I found a quiet place. That's pretty good, huh? That's really good. Oh my gosh. It's like been all this crazy static and stuff. I'm like, ugh, so frustrated. I know.

I've been trying to control it. It's working. Amber? Yes? Amber? Oh. Oh, call her. Orcas. Amber? Yes? Amber? Oh. Oh, it's starting to stop. Amber?

I'm right here. Amber, are you there? Yes. Amber? I can hear you. Hey. Yes. Okay.

There you are. I'm talking. Okay. I'm like, stay still or something. I know. I'm like, I'm making it work. How's your, how was your New Year's? make it work. How was your New Year's? What's that?

How was your New Year's? It's good. I just, I went to the bar now, so I came out of the alley. Quiet alley. Isn't that nice? Yeah, it is. I could hear you. Very good.

It's pretty awesome. The fireworks there, the Eiffel Tower. And the people all playing rock songs. Uh-huh. It was pretty funny. Well, that's good. I'm glad you guys decided to go out. Oh, definitely. I can never remember your friend's name.

I know Jeff, but you always say it all from Swans. And then we have Pasquale, a friend of ours. Uh-huh. Oh, he's there too? Yeah. Pasquale in front of our thing. Uh-huh. Oh, he's there too? Pasquale, yeah. Good. Did you make any of your resolutions? What was that?

Should be. Should be? What should my new resolution be? Oh, I don't know. That was my question. Oh, I didn't think of that. I'll tell if it's something good. Yeah, you'll have to tell if it's something good.

So. So where are you headed? Well, I don't, did you get my message? No. You didn't get, I haven't. Did you leave him? Yeah, I left him. I left him a message because I was like, well, I hope you at least get that. But, um, I was going to, or the San Francisco thing didn't work out. So I'm probably most likely going to go later to Sean's.

Are you there? Hello? Hello? Hello? Are you there? Doesn't sound very stoical or catatonic to me. Doesn't sound like a man who's not in touch with his emotions. He's literally standing at a candlelight vigil for his missing eight-and-a-half-month pregnant wife six days after she went missing,

and he's making that call to Amber Fry. If he had nothing to do with anything, how can he bring himself to have this conversation? People can compartmentalize, sure, but when you pair this with everything else we've talked about, I just don't know how people sweep this under the rug and keep saying, keep making excuses for him and saying that his behavior doesn't matter that it isn't indicative of anything this call is so jarring and he called amber again at midnight california time to wish her a happy new year and that call lasted over an hour not a man who's putting a whole lot of um time into looking for his wife it doesn't seem so, does it?

No. That's the thing. If people are going to say, you know, how can we say he wasn't proactively looking for her? There are only so many hours in the day, and I would probably think that quite a lot of those would be being used on looking for your wife. So as the days and weeks passed,

the police struggled for new leads. A lot of people accused them of not having looked at any other suspects apart from Scott. But again, that's just not true. The police looked into all the recent parolees in the area, particularly those who had any sort of sexually motivated crimes in their past. They also looked into, very carefully, Lacey's stepdad, Ron, and her brother, Lee, was actually a major suspect for a considerable amount of time at the start of this investigation. very carefully, Lacey's stepdad, Ron, and her brother, Lee, was actually a major suspect for

a considerable amount of time at the start of this investigation. And they also looked into a whole range of other people who had known Lacey. But the police found nothing on any of them. And so, yes, Scott was their main suspect by this point. But think about it. Up until now, he's calling Amber regularly, still happily chatting away to her like her boyfriend. And he'd also completely filled Connor's nursery with junk. Even though the due date wasn't until February. It's only January. Like, if you fill a room like that with office chairs and mattresses like he does,

and there's pictures of this, he says that he put all of that stuff in there to stop the media looking through the window. There's a blind. We should fucking close the blind. Why do you need to put a bunch of junk in there? Again, people will say that it's just behaviour, it doesn't prove anything. But to bring yourself to fill your unborn baby's nursery

that was beautifully laid out, very sickeningly ironically with a fucking nautical theme, with junk. You really are telling me, and this is my opinion, that you don't think that that baby is coming home anytime soon. On the 8th of January, 2003, so two weeks after his wife went missing, Scott Peterson decided to treat himself, because he added the Playboy channel to his cable situation. And five days later, he added the 10 Ecstasy package, a more hardcore pornography channel. Again, different people are different. I wonder how you could be horny at a time like this. This is the

thing that like i really want to hammer home about this sort of like behavior and personality analysis if it was one thing exactly then we would probably be sitting here making the argument that you can't put much stock in it but it's just just a lot of things. It's a lot of things. You know? It is a lot of things. You're right. And his defenders, I know, will jump up and scream that he's just a poor little sex addict.

And, you know, this was his way to cope. I don't know. Maybe. Maybe. But even if that is true, you can look at porn on your laptop. He's got a laptop. He's got several laptops. He's got a fucking work office with a computer there you can look at porn on your phone this

is 2002 2003 the thing to me about him adding it to the cable channel list on his home tv it really seems to indicate to me that he's not very concerned that lacy's going to walk through the door the next day after having been missing for weeks and be like, what the fuck? Him adding it to his home TV kind of tells me that he doesn't think she's ever coming home. And it's pretty quick to have given up on her after two weeks if you didn't do it. And if that's not enough, it was after this that the visits to the bay began. On the 5th of January, the police followed scott in a rental car to the berkeley marina he drove the 180 mile round trip to do nothing but just stare at

the bay from the pier for about five minutes he literally drives all the way there looks at the bay for five minutes and then drives all the way home what he really works works hard not smart this boy if he's looking for lacey uh you're right because the next day he did the exact same thing he drove all the way there looked at the water for two minutes and then went home again and we know that this happened because the police put a GPS tracker on him. And they also followed him. And they were also there, and they could see him. And later that night, he called Amber Fry and confessed that his wife had been missing since Christmas Eve. Amber obviously knows this already.

But she does a very good job of playing dumb and shocked. But we're staying in the world. Okay. And I'm so sorry that this has happened, and I'm so sorry that I'm going to hurt you in this way. I don't want to do this over the phone. I want to tell you this. I want to be the only person to tell you this. But I'm sure that's why Saki called you. What but I'm sure that's why Sockie called you. What?

I'm sure it's why Sockie called me. Why would Sockie? What are you talking about? It's the worst thing. Sorry, Amber. I'll just tell you. Okay. You haven't been watching the news, obviously.

No. I have not been traveling during the last couple weeks. I have lied to you that I've been traveling. Okay. Okay. The girl I got married to, her name is Lacey. Uh-huh. She disappeared just before Christmas.

Mm-hmm. For the past two weeks, I've been in Modesto with her family and mine, searching for her. Okay. She just disappeared, and no one knows. Okay, now... where she's been. And I can't tell you more because I need you to be protected from the media and I honor. Okay, they are amazing.

Scott, are you listening? I am. You came to me earlier in December and told me that you had lost your wife. What was that about? She's alive. What? She's alive. Where? She's alive? Where? In Modesto. Now, I know this is the hardest I want to tell you first. Here's the thing. You need to protect yourself from the media. Okay.

Okay, if you haven't been watching the news at all, or you haven't. The media has been telling everyone that I had something to do with her disappearance. For the past two weeks, I've been hunted by the media, and I just don't want you to be involved in this to protect yourself. I know that I, you know, I destroyed, and I got, I hope, I hope so much that this doesn't hurt you. How could it not affect me? It does. How can you possibly think that this would not affect me? Remember, I know it does. But I know I had...

I've just been towing up the last two weeks wanting to tell you, and I'm so weak that I haven't, and I just hope that... I had to call you to tell you that. You never answered my question, Scott. You know, I can't say any more. I think I deserve... You deserve so much better. There's no question you deserve so much better.

Yeah, and I deserve to understand an explanation of why you told me you'd lost your wife and this was the first holidays you'd spend without her. That was December 9th you told me this, and now all of a sudden your wife's missing? Are you kidding me? Did you hear me? I did. I got a couple of mistakes. I think an explanation would be a start. I know you absolutely deserve an explanation. Yes, I do. I do.

And I want to give you one. I'm listening. I can't now. I mean, you don't understand. I don't understand why. You don't understand the situation. Then why don't you put me in on the situation and make me understand? I can't know.

I'm so sorry for what? Why? It's to protect all of us. To protect all of who? Everyone involved. So where is she? That's what we are trying to find out. It's a nationwide search.

I mean, it's a half a million dollar reward for information leading to her safe return. Okay, so again, you never answer my question. Why did you tell me it would be the first holidays without her? I can't. See, I can't explain anymore now. I'm so sorry. You should be still angry at me. I hope you are. Yeah, isn't that what you told me before? Oh, I wish, you know, it'd be so much easier if you just hate me and not want to talk to me. And of course, the person I am, of of course i'm going to say you know you told me you lost your wife you sit there in front of me and cried and broke down i said there and how

your hands got and comforted you and you were lying to me again you're lying to me about lying i lied to you about traveling yeah yeah. That's among everything else. That's just an added. So there you have it. Proof that Scott Peterson told Amber Frye two weeks before Lacey vanished that he'd lost his wife and it would be his first holidays without her. Because I know we already told you guys that, but I think some people ignore this call and say it's just Amber Fry saying that he told her that but I'm so glad

she confronts him with this in this recorded call because he doesn't say I never told you that. He's agreeing with it so he did do it. And also as Amber says when Scott lied to her about this he cried and he sobbed he broke down all after he'd just been at home buying a boat and googling tidal current trends in the San Francisco Bay. So he's very non-stoic when he's lying to Amber about his lost wife two weeks before she went missing, but doesn't have many emotions after she actually does go missing. Now, I'm not saying he had to show all of these emotions

after Lacey went missing for me to believe him we know that that's nonsense a lot of people condemn scott for not being visibly upset enough in public when lacy vanished but like that's just not that important to to me i don't think you can standardize grief responses as we've said many times everybody reacts differently but when his defenders say that scott's just stoic and the kind of man who keeps his emotions to himself which again would be a totally reasonable realistic response for an innocent person to have in such a situation his secret gushing calls to amber after lacy goes missing and all that sobbing he did to her over his lost wife while lacy was still alive and at

home really jar with this narrative that his coldness is just how he copes with stress or that that's just the naturally the kind of person he is I think that's as I said it's it's not one thing it's many things and also it is indisputable proof that he lies oh he lies all the time really good at it and I think that although yes his defenders will say that you can't um find someone guilty their behaviour, blah, blah, blah, grief, etc. It is important that he is a liar. It is very important he's a liar. And they'll say, well, a liar doesn't make you a killer.

It doesn't. But this, again, would be to pretend this is all the evidence there is against Scott. Exactly. Which I implore you, wait till the end of next week before you make your mind up. Exactly. We are working through it guys there is so much here so let's carry on the next day the 7th of december scott again went to san francisco bay with another rental car he would later say that these trips to the bay were on the

days the police were checking the san francisco for bodies. The police were 100% convinced that that's where they were going to find Lacey. So they were constantly looking there. And he said that he just wanted to be there in case they found something. But he was there for mere minutes every time. And he never told the police that he was coming. And he never asked the police about their progress or their plans or anything. If you want to know what the police are doing, if you want to know if they found anything, why wouldn't you just ask them? You're the husband.

You're allowed to do that. Why would you go on these sort of clandestine, weird, minutes-long visits to the bay that's a 180-mile round trip for you? So, I don't know, can you blame the investigators for remaining focused on Scott? In any case, as we said, hold your horse feathers until next week. It's at this point in our story that Scott Peterson moved out of his Modesto home and started to live with his half-sister Anne in San Francisco.

He said he was hounded out by the media. I saw that, yeah. Fair enough. Like, I do think that probably was the case. They were basically camped out on history. Anne's husband wasn't particularly keen. He'd always found Scott to be a bit weird and it got a bit worse. For example, Anne's husband thought that Scott seemed weirdly fine. He'd drink wine with them, hang out, never really seemed to be all that concerned with looking for

Lacey or even theorising about where she might be and what might have happened to her. They also noticed that Scott hit on their child's 20-something-year-old babysitter. I wonder if he cracked out his line that always works. Anne's husband says that the only time that Scott ever seemed agitated was when he would obsessively stare at the bay. He'd start screaming about why the police were looking there and wasting their time. For a man who had no theories about where Lacey could be,

why was he so upset when they were searching the bay? And if he is a man who deals with stress via stoicism, why is he screaming at all? And maybe some people could say in a very kind light that he's like the police you've looked there again and again and again why are you still wasting time looking there? But again he doesn't ever confront the police with this he doesn't ever say to them maybe you

should try here what about this what else are you looking at? He just sort of screams about it in his half-sister's house. And also if he really thinks they're not going to find anything at the bay why does he keep driving there for literally hours? So it's clear, like we said, the police were fixated with that location, with San Francisco Bay, because of Scott, their main suspect. But they needed to find Lacey, or get Scott to reveal something to Amber on her secret calls. Frustratingly for investigators, however,

this line of inquiry, this sort of route into Scott would soon come to an end because towards the end of January 2003, they got some bad news. The National Enquirer had found out about Amber Fry. Up until this point, the police have kept her completely under wraps. They've played a blinder. They really have. They managed to get like almost a month of these secret recordings. the national enquirer had even managed to get a bunch of pictures of amber and scott together things like pictures at a christmas party that they'd gone to together where he's wearing a santa hat and looking like a really fucking scummy scumbag and she sat on his lap and fuck me was it a scoop this story was the only thing

that everyone cared about at the time and now there was a secret mistress and i don't like that word i don't want to call amber a mistress because she didn't know she didn't know she didn't know she thinks he's our boyfriend so of course the national inquirer were like to the police we are going to run this story we're just giving you a heads up which i'm even surprised they did that so police knew that the amber story couldn't come out like this, especially to Lacey's parents. So on the 24th of January 2003, they put Amber Fry front and centre in a dramatic press conference.

Okay, first of all, I met Scott Peterson November 20th, 2002. I was introduced to him. I was told he was unmarried. Scott told me he was not married we did have a romantic relationship when I discovered he was involved in the disappear the Lucy Peterson disappearance of case I immediately contacted the Modesto Police Department although I couldn could have sold the photos of Scott and I to tabloids, I knew this was not the right thing to do. For fear of jeopardizing the case or the police investigation, I will not comment further. I am very sorry for Lacey's family and the pain that this has caused them. And I pray for her safe return as well. to my friends and acquaintances to refrain from talking about me to the media for profit or recognition. I am a single mother of a 23-month-old child and I ask to respect my privacy. Thank you. Up until this revelation, Lacey's family had been on Scott's side,

and their public support was the only thing that had stopped Scott falling deeper into a megapit of suspicion. But after the Amber affair comes out, that support was so gone. And it was gone from elsewhere as well even Anne Scott's own half-sister asked him to move out and I just want to make it clear I think a lot of people point to this and be like look Lacey's family were on his side until the Amber revelation came out like they only turned on him because they found out he was cheating on their daughter but like like, remember, Scott lies and he's incredibly manipulative. Whether you think he killed Lacey or not, he's incredibly manipulative. He's very good at putting on a front. So obviously they thought that he was a good son-in-law because

he would have acted like the perfect son-in-law whenever they were around. And we will go on to discover that Lacey and Scott had had many problems in their marriage before Amber came along. But Lacey never told her family anything. Because people are embarrassed. People don't want to, some people are very private, they don't want to even tell their family that their husband is a piece of shit. Like, she kept these things to herself. Yeah, man, I know so many people who do that.

So I'm not surprised at all that Lacey's parents thought that scott was a great guy everybody did defenders of scott will say that this sort of thing is what made the public so emotional when it comes to this case and that this is the information that damned scott not any real evidence a love rat does not make a murderer this is the thing you will hear again and again and again with this case that amber fry was the nail in the coffin for Scott Peterson and that it was this rage that everybody felt towards is what sent him down. Spoilers. And also, I don't really believe that his affair, his lies and his behaviour tell us nothing about him. It actually tells us a lot about his personality. Something that would be absolutely ridiculous to ignore. People constantly go on about his behaviour doesn't mean anything since when in any crime does a killer or does a person's personality have no impact on the type of crimes that they commit exactly it's always

a part of the puzzle but again those who think scott peterson is innocent say oh well now look this whole thing about amber fry is out it makes. The reason he was acting so weirdly, not wanting to go on camera or show his face to the media or make appeals for Lacey's return, was because he was hiding a secret girlfriend, not a murdered wife. And I'm sure that this was the reason. But does that not tell you a lot about his fucking priorities and his instinct of self-preservation and also his total disregard for his pregnant wife's safety or well-being? Like, okay, say he's got a secret girlfriend and then his wife goes missing and it's nothing to do with him. Would you really be like, I can't make any attempts to proactively look for my wife

using the media in case my secret girlfriend finds out about it? My secret girlfriend who I'm still calling every single day, by the way. Like, look at his prioritization. That will tell you what you need to know. Or that will tell you something. It should tell you something. So once the Amber Fry revelation was out in the open, Scott couldn't just hide in the background anymore. And he didn't need to.

Amber now knows. Well, she knew before, but he now knows she knows. So he gave an interview to Diane Sawyer. Former beauty queen Diane Sawyer. Oh, and still a babe. Still a babe. So let's listen to some of this interview, shall we? I think everybody sitting at home wants the answer to the same question. Did you murder your wife?

No, no. I just thought. And I had absolutely nothing to do with her disappearance. And you used the word murder, and yeah, that is a possibility. It's not one we're ready to accept, and it creeps in my mind late at night and early in the morning. And during the day, all we can think about is the right resolutions to find her well. But as you know, increasingly, in the public, suspicion has turned on you. Yes, definitely. Did you ever hit her? Did you ever injure her?

No, no. My God, no. Violence towards women is unapproachable. It is the most disgusting act to me. And I know that suspicion has turned to me. It's turned to me, one, because I'm her husband. And that's a natural thing. And I've heard all the statistics on all the news shows about that being, you know, someone that, a husband, ex-husband, a boyfriend, that is statistically one who would be responsible for her disappearance. And I'm sorry, I've cut your question. Did you ever hit her?

Did you ever injure her? No, no, never. I answered your question because the suspicion that it's been turned to me and it turned to me because of the inappropriate romantic that i had with amber fry oh my god he's using that voice you use when you call in sick to work but you're not really sick that I had with Amber Frye. Oh, my God. He's using that voice you use when you call in sick to work, but you're not really sick.

It's like, I'm just so, so sad. I'm so, so sad. I really want to come in. I just don't think I can. I could work from home for a bit, but fuck off. Fuck off, Scott. Right, let's listen to another bit. Amber Fry came forward.

I'm glad she did. You are? Definitely. Why? It's the appropriate thing to do. It really shows what a person of character she is, and it allows us to get back looking for Lacey. Did you tell her that you were not married?

I did. I did. And then when Lacey disappeared, I called her, and admittedly it wasn't immediately. It was a couple days after Lacey's disappearance. I telephoned her and told her the truth. The truth? That I was married, that Lacey disappeared. She didn't know about it at that point. And then she contacted the police.

Lies. Amber Fry found out about Lacey from the news and she found out about Scott from her police officer friend, not from Scott. Scott never ever told her this. Were you in love with her? No. Was this the first time? Are there others out there? No. There's no one else

who can come forward? No. I owe a tremendous apology to everyone. Had you told anyone? Did you tell police? I told the police immediately. When? That was the first night we were together. The police. I spent with the police. You told them about her? Yeah, from December 24th on. More lies. Scott had multiple affairs during his and Lacey's five-year marriage. This is something we'll go on to talk about more next week.

But yes, he cheated on her multiple times, and Lacey knew about it, but she didn't tell anybody else. And he absolutely did not tell the police about Amber Fry on the night of the 24th. I watched that fucking interview four times. In fact, let's listen to a little clip from that initial police interview on Christmas Eve, shall we? You guys, you guys have any problems? Marriage problems? You think it's good? You've been married four years?

Yeah. Four to five. And painful. I guess it's five. You've been married 97. So you were married in 97? Please stop. So there you go. When he's asked outright if they have any problems in their marriage, Scott Peterson says no.

But he doesn't even know how long they were married. He says four years and then Detective Brocchini is like, isn't it five if you got married? And then he's like, oh yeah, four and a half, four or five years. Are you fucking kidding me? And I don't know. Unless Scott Peterson thinks that cheating on his wife multiple times isn't a problem. He says there they had no problems in their marriage.

He certainly didn't tell them about Amber. He does lie about very easily provable things. And this just, again, it's because he thinks he can hoodwink everyone. Yeah. Did your wife find out about it? I told my wife. When? In early December.

It was not a positive, obviously. It's, you know, inappropriate. But it was not something that we weren't dealing with. A lot of arguing? No. No. No. I can't say that even she was okay with the idea. But it wasn't anything that would break us apart.

There wasn't a lot of anger? No. Do you really expect people to believe that an eight-and-a-half-month pregnant woman learns her husband has had an affair and is saintly and casual about it accommodating makes a peace with it well yeah you don't know no one knows our relationship with us and that's at peace with it, not happy about it. Why did you tell her?

It was the right thing. Because again, you know that people sitting at home have imagined that either you were in love with someone else, therefore you decided to get rid of this entanglement, namely your wife and your child, or there was just an angry confrontation. Neither of those was the case. It's that simple. He insisted all was well between him and Lacey. Tell me about the state of your marriage. What kind of marriage was it? God, I mean, the first word that comes to mind is, you know, glorious.

I mean, we took care of each other very well. She was amazing. She is amazing. Lacey was okay with the affair. Who would believe that? That is, like, the worst bit of the interview, where he's just like, yeah, I told her and she was fine. She was okay.

She was okay. We were okay. It wasn't going to break us. What? It's like he's so used, yeah, I told her and she was fine. She was okay. She was okay. We were okay. It wasn't going to break us. What? It's like he's so used to lying and being believed that he can't even comprehend what makes sense and what doesn't anymore. No, he just lies about the most easily provable things

and just thinks that he can charm his way out of it. It's mind-boggling. The entire interview is cringe-ville and he just sort of smiles awkwardly all the way through I do think that he is arrogant enough to believe that he is in control of the whole situation

it's very reminiscent of sweaty nonce Prince Andrew's interview with the BBC like he I really think he thinks that he's in control and it does seem like he's gone through his whole life being able to do whatever he wanted, exactly like Prince Andrew, who still has stuffed animals on his bed.

Very similarly to Chris Watts and Casey Anthony, Scott had incredibly enabling parents. This case and Scott Peterson himself reminds me so much of Chris Watts and Casey Anthony. The lies, the lies, the glibness, and, like you said, the parents. All three of these people's mothers, so Casey's mum, Chris's mum, Scott's mum,

they constantly make excuses for their children their entire lives. Go back and listen to our episodes on Chris and Casey if you don't believe us. Like, it really is the central focus of those people's development. Scott's parents, Jackie and Lee, went on the Barbara Walters show

after Amber came out publicly about her relationship with Scott. And this is what they had to say on national television. So when you heard that he was seeing another woman, what did you think? It was surprising. It was disappointing. But it's certainly not anything that's extraordinary.

Well, if you thought the marriage was so good, were you not shocked? Oh, yes. Yeah. Yeah, we were shocked. We were shocked. We were unhappy. We were disappointed. I mean, that's the reality of life. Men have Yeah, we were shocked. We were shocked. We were unhappy. And disappointed.

I mean, that's the reality of life. Men have affairs. Women have affairs. When their wives are eight and a half months pregnant? Probably more so. That's mostly when men do, we've learned. I had no idea. So is it your feeling — I don't want to put words in your mouth — but that Lacey

was pregnant and Scott needed another woman for, I don't know, sex or what? What do you think? I think it's that simple, Barbara. I really do. That happens. It certainly doesn't give motive for murder. Honestly. Firstly, I was unaware that Barbara Walters had some sort of like investigative talk

show when did that happen and how did it pass me by I mean it was in like fucking years ago so who knows if she's still kicking about and doing that but it really is just so shocking they're just like more men cheat on their pregnant wives than not we've done the research and we we found out that this is actually completely statistically normal i know jesus fucking you kind of keep waiting for scott's dad to be like i mean not me though but he doesn't no he's like men do this women do this people do this and i'm like wow and they're saying this in public like enabled is not even enabled doesn't even come close doesn't even come close because it's just the tip of the iceberg scott's entire life his mom called him her golden boy again very similar to chris watts and very similar to the casey anthony

situation at home if you remember they were willing to fucking throw george casey's dad under the bus to get her off like enabling enabling enabling and we're not going to get into a huge amount of detail about scott's parents but there is a lot of information out there about them basically his mum had like multiple children with different men and then put them all up for adoption like that's where anne his half sister comes from she sort of finds them much later in life. When she meets Lee, Scott's dad, he already has a son that lives with him from another marriage. And then they have Scott together. She manages to basically orchestrate a situation where that boy gets sent away.

That son gets sent away. And they just live like the three of them. And Scott is like the perfect golden boy who can do no wrong. Maybe people will think I'm being harsh towards his parents. But I don't think so. I really think that particularly Jackie is very much at the root of a lot of this. And there's actually an interview with Anne, the half-sister, on Oprah's podcast, which you can go and listen to,

which is quite eye-opening because she spills a lot of beans on her biological mother. So basically, Scott is absolutely the favourite. And according to some family members, apparently Jackie, Scott's mum, absolutely resented Lacey. She was far too much of a perfectionist. And also, Jackie thought that Lacey was too controlling. I was watching last night, for reasons that will become clear next year,

I was watching The Great about Catherine the Great. It's got Nick Holt in it. And it is by no means historically accurate at all. Nicholas Holt, who plays the Emperor of Russia, he keeps his mom in a glass box, even though she's dead, so he can look at her and he wears her jewelry and stuff. He's like, someone really should write something about a chap's relationship with his mother. It just moves on because it's in the 1600s or something. Brilliant. Even earlier, sorry, 1400s. I mean, it's a tricky relationship. It's a tricky one. And Jackie sits at the far end of that tricky spectrum because she absolutely hated, according to family members, Lacey. Because Lacey had moved her son to Modesto to be closer to her family because Lacey grew up in Modesto that's her hometown that's where her parents and her friends

are I think and maybe this is old-fashioned of me I think if you are pushing the baby out you get to decide where it lives yes and you get to decide where your support network is yes and she probably fucking hated Jackie and didn't want her anywhere near the kid in my opinion what you need to know is that lee and jackie seemingly very much enabled scott continuously and again there's just so much more to this that we can't get into because we would literally have to become a scott peterson podcast which i would rather throw myself in front of a fucking bus but when you raise your child as they seem to have done, and as Chris Watt's mum did, and as Casey's mum did, with no consequences for their actions, then you instill in them this belief that they are the most important

person on the planet. And you reap what you sow. And you end up with a narcissist who thinks that their desires and their wants are more important than anything or anyone else. There is no doubt, in my opinion, that Scott Peterson displays clear narcissistic and psychopathic tendencies. Whether you think he's a killer or not, I think this is irrefutable. He's glib, the shallowness, the lying, the manipulation, a total lack of empathy, recklessness, low neuroses, etc, etc. I could go on and on. This case to me like I said is very similar to Chris Watts and to Casey Anthony and like we said in both of those episodes that we did I think that these enabled golden children were so used to putting on this sort of facade right they had been so used to always presenting this image of polished perfection that even when the most awful things

are happening they just smile they're polite keep calm, and they carry on. Because if you remember when we did the Casey Anthony case, we were like, why doesn't Casey just give everybody the show that they want? Why doesn't she just cry and sob and stop people asking why she's being so cold? But I think it's because we said in that episode, she's so used to putting a smile on her face and keeping calm and carrying on. And I think that's what's going on here and I also think that Scott Peterson doesn't feel confident that he can sob and cry in

front of the whole world and pull it off so he goes for the stoic look but he thinks Amber's stupid enough that he can sob and cry to her which is why he does it so anyway I think it's pretty obvious by now that I think that Scott Peterson did indeed kill his wife. So let's talk motive. Why kill Lacey? A lot of people say that Scott killed Lacey to be with Amber. We don't buy this one. I don't think that he gave a single shit about Amber, actually.

He enjoyed the excitement of affairs. That's why he had so many of them. He likes the thrill of a new relationship. And you can see that from the way he love bombed her. He clearly just wants to be adored. He went out of his way to give Amber exactly what she wanted. He presented himself as her dream man who would look after her and her child and still give her this exciting romance. He did all of that, not because he wanted to, but because it served him. He didn't actually feel that way. He knew exactly what a woman like Amber, a young woman with a two-year-old child,

wanted to hear and see and feel. And he gave it to her so he could feel the rush of being adored. That feeds someone like Scott Peterson. And you will have his defenders saying that he had been unfaithful many times before and he'd never killed Lacey before. So why is he killing her now? Yeah, that's one of the most interesting arguments that his defenders make. Well, he had so many affairs. So Amber's not special. Why would he kill Lacey for her?

It's so obvious. I know. It's because Lacey had never been pregnant before. In this case, Amber is not the key thing. She could have been anyone. She could have been anyone. The key thing in this have been anyone she could have been anyone yeah the key thing in this case is the pregnancy that is absolutely key to this murder a baby would mean

that Lacey would have had far more expectations of Scott he'd have to be around more he couldn't just swan off on his many work trips to try pick up women in hotel bars with sex chat. He'd be trapped. And Scott Peterson, very much like Chris Watts, wanted a clean start, a fresh do-over. He didn't want to be tied down. He didn't want the griminess of an ex-wife. Remember, he's a golden boy. He'd rather be a widower with a murdered wife than one with an ex-wife and a child he'd have to pay for for the rest of his life.

And I don't think, like Hannah said, he was in it for a new life with Amber. Because his supporters will say, why would he kill his wife to get out of a pregnancy and then hook up with a woman with a two-year-old child? That's like a big point that everybody hammers on about. If you didn't want a kid, why is he hooking up with Amber and in love with Amber because she's already got a child? It's so obvious.

He's not planning on sticking around with amber and her kid he doesn't give a fuck about amber and believe me he gave even less of a fuck about her child amber was a fling and people will be like then why do you keep going on about it why do you keep pulling up the calls because it was still serving a purpose for him it was feeding his ego amber was absolutely nothing to him he'd have kept up the act as long as it benefited him sexually, emotionally, whatever. Then he'd have fucked off to the next woman and the next and the next. And when he did that, he would not have to think twice about Amber's kid. And to make the point that the repercussions of him having a biological child with his wife would be in some way comparable to him hooking up with a woman who already had a child with somebody else is ludicrous.

They are just not even in the same stratosphere of similarity. But for now, let's get back to the investigation. Let's leave personality analysis behind us. At this stage in our story, it's been months since Lacey had vanished and there was still no body. Police were still confident that Lacey was in the San Francisco Bay because they strongly suspected that Scott had dumped her there the day that he went fishing. But without the body, the prosecutor was refusing to move forward with any charges. So they had to find Lacey and Connor to stand any chance of finding justice. Then, on the 14th of April 2003,

a couple walking along the Point Isabel regional shoreline of the San Francisco Bay found the body of a late-term fetus lying on the shore. The next day, a dog walker found a badly decomposed female torso about a mile down the beach. And detectives couldn't believe it. So that's it, guys. We're going to stop there. We have to stop there because my mouth is so dry. And I've been yelling for quite a while now.

So no, we're going to stop there and we're going to pick back up next week where we will conclude exactly and put your gavels away until then yeah you only have half the story this is the penultimate episode as we said the second part will be coming out next week a couple of days before christmas so um yeah we'll see you then next week we will be taking shorthand off as we will the next week um but we'll be back with everything red--handed, shorthand, all that good stuff, under the duvet for all of the patrons. We'll be back in January, but do not forget to listen to part two of Scott Peterson next week. Hi, I'm Lindsey Graham, the host of Wondery Show American Scandal. We bring to life some of the biggest controversies in U.S. history. Presidential lies, environmental disasters, corporate fraud. In our latest series, NASA embarks on an ambitious program to reinvent space exploration with the launch of its first reusable vehicle, the Space

Shuttle. And in 1985, they announced they're sending teacher Krista McAuliffe into space aboard the Space Shuttle Challenger, along with six other astronauts. But less than two minutes after liftoff, the Challenger explodes. And in the tragedy's aftermath, investigators uncover a series of preventable failures by NASA and its contractors that led to the disaster. Follow American Scandal on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. Experience all episodes ad-free and be the first to binge the newest season only on Wondery Plus. You can join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify. Start your free trial today. He was hip-hop's biggest mogul, the man who redefined fame, fortune, and the music industry.

The first male rapper to be honored on the Hollywood Walk of Fame, Sean Diddy Cone. Diddy built an empire and lived a life most people only dream about. Everybody know ain't no party like a Diddy party, so. Yeah, that's what's up. But just as quickly as his empire rose, it came crashing down. Today I'm announcing the unsealing of a three-count indictment charging Sean Combs with racketeering conspiracy, sex trafficking, interstate transportation for prostitution. I was f***ed up. I hit rock bottom, but I made no excuses. I'm disgusted. I'm so sorry. Until you're wearing an orange jumpsuit, it's not real. Now it's real.

From his meteoric rise to his shocking fall from grace, from law and crime, this is The Rise and Fall of Diddy. Listen to The Rise and Fall of Diddy exclusively with Wondery Plus. I'm Sruti. I'm Hannah. And welcome to Red Handed. The finale. It is. This is the last episode of 2022. It's been a hell of a year. It's been a hell of a year. So thank you all for everything you did for us this year. Thank you for being here right up until the end. And hopefully we're going to go out with a bang today. One would hope. Yeah so we are going to pick up exactly where we left off last week. Goes without saying if you are looking at this in your podcast player and it says part two and you haven't listened to part one I really don't

know what to tell you. Go listen to part one first. So yes we are now on the shores of San Francisco Bay where over the course of about 18 hours on on the 14th of April 2003, along the Point Isabel regional shoreline, the body of a late-term male foetus and a decomposed female torso were found washed up. The police couldn't wait for the post-mortem to confirm their identities. They just knew it had to be Lacey and Connor, and it was time to arrest Scott. After all, they had found the bodies of who they thought were Lacey and Connor, 90 miles from the Petersons' home, in the exact place Scott had gone fishing the day that Lacey vanished. That's pretty bloody good probable cause. The other reason for the rush was that the police had been keeping close tabs on Scott, and given his movements since the bodies had been

found, they were nervous. Scott's mobile phone GPS, which they had tracked, remember, showed him driving farther and farther south, and police were worried that he was heading for Mexico, and once he got there, there wasn't much they could do about it. They had followed him for hours, but Scott knew that they were following him. And eventually, detectives pulled Scott over and arrested him near the Torre pines golf course in la jolla san diego scott claimed that he was there to play golf with his dad and brother that

day just a casual 420 miles away from modesto that's a seven hour drive and even for americans seven hours to play golf for a day he's not even staying overnight that's madness i mean he never says he's fucking just what like that day he's driving there that day he's driving there whether he's planning on staying or not who fucking knows but like it's mind-boggling first of all who plays golf who are you i don't believe anyone actually plays golf second of all yeah who drives 420 miles to play golf third of all who does that just a few days after two bodies have been found matching the description of your missing wife and your unborn son? Scott Peterson.

Surely you would be camped outside a police station or at home staring at the phone waiting to hear if all hope was lost and that your family was dead. Again, there will be people, as there always are, that want to say that maybe he just needed to blow off steam, everyone deals with things differently, he needed to distract himself until they found someone okay, but... There's no denying that while the golf course is not very close at all to home for Scott,

it was just 30 miles from the Mexican border. And that's not all, because when the police caught up with Scott, he was driving a new car. He had dyed his hair and his beard, and he had $15,000 of cash on him. Plus four mobile phones, camping equipment, 200 sleeping pills, 20 Viagra pills, and his brother's ID. Sleeping pills and Viagra is an odd combination. Yeah, I just don't know. No, I've got nothing. I don't know. I've got nothing.

But what I do have is that it really looked like he was going on the run. But as usual, Scott had an explanation for everything. Apparently, his mum Jackie had accidentally taken $15,000 out of Scott's account. Apparently, they had once shared a joint account, and Scott had just forgotten to take her name off it. And she had accidentally withdrawn the money from that account and decided to just give it to him as cash with an apology. Okay, Jackie.

So why did he have his brother's ID? Well, his family were going to play a round of golf at Torrey Pines and his brother, who's a San Diego resident, apparently gets a discounted rate. So that's why. They're very thrifty for people who are waiting to find out if Lacey and Connor's bodies have been found. I mean, I was about to go off on petrol prices

and how much it would cost you to drive $420,000, but in... And America. Yeah, it's California in 2003. 50p. It's really not, that's not an argument either, so I'll just shut up. Okay, so why the bleached hair and beard? If you look at pictures of him, his hair is like a sort of dirty blonde greenish colour of somebody who has done a bad bleach job on themselves. I

wonder what that feels like. For those of you who don't follow us on social media, you will be unfamiliar with Hannah's little trip down bleach lane. It's starting to come back through at the end. Well, that's gonna be there a while. Yeah, in my defense i had a car panic and i had to dye my hair myself because i ran out of time we were going on tour the next day and then the good people of dublin saved my bacon but um yeah i need to go and um do it do it again because it's starting to starting to come through the good thing is red is the largest color molecule so it'll take the longest to fade so hopefully you'll be just fine for the many years it will take for that to grow out so anyway scott peterson didn't have anybody to help him dye his hair and his beard but he also

at first didn't say that that's what it was he said that it was the chlorine because he'd been going swimming a lot lately and it had bleached his incredibly dark brown hair a weird dirty blonde chlorine doesn't do that unless your hair is already dyed it doesn't fuck with your hair like no it doesn't obviously he dyed it and later he did admit that he had dyed it but he said that it was to help him evade the media now before anybody jumps down my throat i do have to admit if it had been to hide from the police, it wasn't a great ploy because they'd already seen him with dyed hair the day before they arrested him. But as we do know, he was going on all those weird little secret driving trips to the bay. I don't know. Maybe. Maybe. The media were hounding him. I'll give you that much. People also say, if he was on the run, why didn't he run sooner?

If he was going to run at all surely it would have made more sense to do it earlier in the game but we pose the question why would he the police had no bodies and without the bodies the prosecutor wasn't going to move ahead with the case scott also had a family who were totally on his side covering for him as usual why would he have prematurely left all of that and a very good life that he had behind unless he had to? We think that he thought he'd just wait it out for a little bit. Just keep an eye on the body discovery situation, which explains his little trips to the San Francisco Bay. And then he was convinced he could talk his way out of everything else as long as the bodies didn't show up.

But even if you explain away each and every oddity about the situation on the day of the arrest, like why does he have four mobile phones? He doesn't really have an explanation for that. He sort of answers everything else. But even if you explain all of that away, like the hair, the cash, the mobiles, etc. Again, if you add them all up, because it's not just one thing, it's again many things, it really does look like he was a man who was about to go on the run. Again, can't prove it, but it really looks like it. Especially when you throw in that the day the police arrested him, the day that he was amid 30 miles from the Mexican border,

was in fact the exact day of the autopsies of the two bodies that had been found on the shoreline of San Francisco Bay. And that was the day that it would be 100% confirmed beyond a shadow of a doubt if it was Lacey and Connor who had been found. And this news, that it was indeed Lacey and Connor, surprise surprise, was confirmed to the police on their long drive back from San Diego to Modesto. The officers claimed that Scott, who was sat in the back of their police car, had no reaction at all when they told him. He says that he did have a huge reaction on the inside, but that he didn't want them to see it. And maybe, like maybe, people point to this again

being like, aha, look. But like his reactions for me are so secondary to everything else we have to discuss today. And so Scott Peterson was charged with the first-degree homicide of Lacey Peterson and Connor Peterson, and the district attorney wanted the death penalty. Within two weeks, Scott had ditched his public defender, and thanks to his parents, who remortgaged their house, he was able to secure the services of Mark Geragos. Geragos is notorious.

He's defended the likes of Chris Brown and Bill Clinton's brother, so he ain't cheap. Fuck no, is he cheap. It was a million dollar retainer for Mark Geragos. In the documentary, The Murder of Lacey Peterson, which, watch if you want to, but it is riddled with inaccuracies and, quite frankly, straight up lies.

Anyway, in the documentary, they interview a lawyer who went to meet with scott and he says i asked him what happened if she slipped and hit her head tell me you'll be out in a few years but he was adamant i did not do this and i believed him over the next few weeks you could tell he was so sad he wanted to die he'd lost so much weight he was was this baby, this mama's boy, who'd been turned into a monster by the media. I beg your pardon? Honestly, I just have no words. I was watching it and I was like, I don't know what to say. A baby? He's a 33. He's a, well, 31 when Lacey goes missing,

33 by the time he stands trial. So he's in his early 30s had multiple affairs on his wife was having an affair when she goes missing what about him as a baby i don't know that's like what his mum would say and i just think this whole thing right is that they present that in the documentary as if we're meant to like have any stock in it they want us to believe in scott's innocence now based on his behavior they're're like, he was so upset. He couldn't believe it. He wanted to die. He lost so much weight. But we're not allowed to look at any of the odd behavior that might point to his guilt.

Yeah, good point. And also, where was this baby's loss of appetite and sadness and wanting to die, etc. when his pregnant wife Lacey was missing for four months before they found her body? Like, this is the thing. When you see pictures of him after he's been arrested at like his pre-trial hearing at the trial, wife Lacey was missing for four months before they found her body. Like this is the thing when you see pictures of him after he's been arrested at like his pre-trial hearing at the trial the trial takes quite a long time to like come about but when you see him during all that time he loses so much weight and he does he looks like shit compared to how he looked before but again between

Lacey going missing and her body being found so a time which you would imagine is filled with intense anxiety for the husband he doesn't seem to lose any weight then he doesn't seem to look like shit then but he does after he's arrested and maybe you could say well he wasn't that sad when Lacey went missing because even if he didn't kill her that he hated her he didn't want to be with her anymore and it was a sort of blessing out of the blue that his wife had gone missing, this woman that he wanted to divorce anyway. So maybe even if he didn't kill her, he wasn't all that sad that she'd vanished. That's pretty cold about a woman you've been married to for five years, even if you don't love her anymore. But what about your unborn child that she is carrying? Eight and a half months. If that baby was born then, he could have lived.

Like, I just don't buy this thing that some people say that, like, maybe he just wasn't that sad because he wanted to divorce her anyway. She was pregnant with his kid. Yeah. But in any case, with Scott now charged, everyone turned their attention to the trial. And it was challenging right from the start. For example, where was the trial going to take place? It would have been tough to find anywhere in the state of California, possibly even the country, that would have been somewhere where this case hadn't been reported on extensively. But eventually the judge settled on Redwood City, about 90 miles from Modesto. Then there was jury selection. And this went on for weeks. The defence needed to find people who were open-minded about the case

despite all of the media coverage about the affair and with the likes of former prosecutor Nancy Grace analysing Scott's actions and assessing his guilt on a nightly basis in her usual bombastic way. It definitely wasn't easy to overcome all of the media coverage and of course the media's behaviour did impact people's opinions. But that can and does happen. It's not the first time it's ever happened. And that's why the bar for conviction is set extremely high. The prosecution have to show guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.

The defense only have to poke holes in that narrative. And again, I'm not saying that wrong convictions don't happen. Of course they do. But to say that the media's behaviour in this case is the only influencing factor and that everybody was so swept up in it and that that's what condemned him and it was Amber Fry and it was the media and it was everybody else's fault, I think, again, it just doesn't hold true when you look at all of the other evidence we're going to go into.

So just bear that in mind. So in the documentary, when they're talking about jury selection, the documentary, which is very much on the side of Scott Peterson being innocent, says that 50% of people who took the jury questionnaire said that they thought that Scott was guilty. But to me, that implies that 50% of people thought that he wasn't or that they didn't know. So they were open-minded. Now, I know there were likely a lot of people thought that he wasn't or that they didn't know. So they were open-minded. Now I know there were likely a lot of people lying about saying that they didn't know or that they thought he was innocent in order to get on the jury in this case. It was a very high profile case. A lot of people wanted to be on this jury. But again, the criminal justice system isn't flawless. You have to take these people's word for it when you're doing jury selection. But the trial is where all of the evidence is presented, overseen by a judge,

and the jury are meant to decide there what they ultimately think. Even the fact that we use lay people just off the street to be on juries makes the situation less ideal, but that's the situation. It isn't perfect. Another issue that people point out is that the jury in this case were not sequestered which means they weren't hidden away but it was likely going to be an incredibly long trial that went on for months and while sequestering a jury on the one hand does keep them away from media reports and might get rid of the less serious candidates who are just in there to

rubberneck but the other problem is that it can lead to a group of desperate people willing to return a verdict that they aren't totally happy with just to be allowed to go home. Exactly what happened to the Central Park Five. Exactly. Again, it is tricky. You could argue it either way. It works for either argument. Exactly.

So in the end, the judge just has to make a decision. The last thing we want to say before we go on to the trial itself is something that Scott's supporters continuously harp on about. The fact that this was a circumstantial case, not a direct evidence case. Let's be crystal clear on this once and for all. Circumstantial evidence is evidence. A circumstantial case is fully valid and just as powerful under the law as a direct evidence case would be, no matter what any defence attorney might claim.

Yeah, when you see people talk about this and they'll be like, well, it was just a circumstantial evidence case. I'm like, under the law, that judge oversaw that case and was like, this is valid and powerful. There is no distinction that this is a lesser type of evidence in the eyes of the law. Also, I think the problem is that people misunderstand what circumstantial and direct evidence even mean. Direct evidence is things like eyewitness testimony, something we know can be and often is total and utter nonsense. And

circumstantial evidence can actually include things like every juror's favourites, like DNA and fingerprints, which people will often call physical evidence's favourites, like DNA and fingerprints, which people will often call physical evidence. And yes, it is physical evidence, but it's still also circumstantial evidence because all they do is place someone somewhere. If you find a fingerprint of somebody somewhere and a crime just so happened to be committed there, it is still only circumstantial.

Other evidence is needed to tie the person whose fingerprint it is to the crime being committed so if you're a patron and you listen to our delphi update that we did last week two weeks ago they found a bullet casing in the woods that quote-unquote matches a gun that they found in richard allen's house but they have to now prove that that bullet casing was involved in the commission of the crime because he could have been there another day shooting his gun and that's why the bullet is there. That is still circumstantial evidence even though you'd also call it physical evidence. So like don't disregard and don't allow people to tell you, people who have other interests, that circumstantial evidence is not as powerful. It absolutely is. The key thing we have to remember with any criminal case

like this one is that it's like building a wall every brick of circumstantial behavioral physical direct evidence makes the case more and more solid it's not about individual pieces of evidence it's about the totality of evidence every messy detail and loose end can't be cleared away and neatly tied up you often see with this case people being like pick out one little thing that's a loose end and be like, well, you can't explain that. Therefore, he's innocent. That's not the standard. That's not how this works. Everything is messy. You can't explain away everything. But the point is, at the end, can you stand back, look at that wall and say that you have been convinced one way or another beyond a reasonable doubt as to somebody's guilt? That's the standard. So the moment you have been convinced one way or another beyond a reasonable doubt as to somebody's guilt.

That's the standard. So the moment you have all been waiting for it is trial time. Let's get into it. Scott Peterson's trial started on the 1st of June 2004 and the prosecution's theory was that Scott had killed Lacey on the night of the 23rd of December and dumped her body in the San Francisco Bay on the 24th of December. The prosecution said that Martha Stewart hadn't been talking about meringues on the show that was aired on the morning of the 24th of December so Scott was lying when he said that he and Lacey had watched it together. I don't know why the prosecution went so hard after this. They really worked very hard to show that he killed her on the night of the 23rd on one hand you can be like they're just trying to provide a really clear timeline for the jury to follow

but like it's really irrelevant if he killed her on the night of the 23rd or the morning of the 24th because like nobody sees her after they go to see her sister amy and she calls her mom at like 8 30 p.m that night nobody sees or hears from her again ever so like it could have happened at any. I don't know why they go on about this so hard, because it really fucks them over. And it fucks them over in an extremely embarrassing way when the defence play a tape of the episode of Martha Stewart that went out on the 24th of December, and it featured Martha Stewart talking very definitely about meringues. The thing is, this doesn't make a difference to lacy having been murdered by scott or not but it really does undermine the prosecution something awful and that's all the defense need to do in any case they just need to cause enough doubt this is a fucking capital murder case and they are

fucking up like this in almost in the opening statement it is ludicrous that they allowed this to happen but again remember it doesn't make a difference as to whether it's indicative of Scott's guilt or not. It just made the prosecution look stupid. The defence also stated that someone had been using the Petersons' home computer at 8.40am on the morning of the 24th to look at sunflower umbrella stands and women's scarves. And they claimed that this was a smoking gun

that Lacey must have been alive that morning, so the morning of Christmas Eve. They even had the Petersons' maid testify that when she had cleaned the house the day before, a bench and a pair of hair colours that had been found in the bathroom when the police got there hadn't been there. Scott said that Lacey had sat on the bench that morning, so the morning of Christmas Eve,

trying to curl her hair, like how her sister had showed her to do the night before. But so fucking what? Neither of these prove anything. Firstly, anyone could have been using that computer to google sunflower stands. In fact, Scott's emails were also accessed within minutes of those sunflower stand searches and women's scarf searches. So what, were he and Lacey like jumping on and off the computer like within minutes to do these two different things? Or was it Scott pretending to be Lacey and opening his emails, forgetting that he's meant to be establishing some sort of weird alibi? Or maybe Lacey was indeed alive that morning and she had indeed

dragged that bench in there to sit down and curl her hair and then she'd looked up some sunflower stands and scarves and then she had looked at Scott's emails. Maybe she'd found one from Amber and a fight had erupted. The point is, the bench and the Googling doesn't prove anything. All these things do is back up Scott's unverifiable story, and we already know that he lies. Yes, please see last week's episode. As for the timeline of when Lacey actually died, all we know for sure, for sure, for sure,

is that Lacey last spoke to her mum on the phone at 8.30pm on the 23rd of December when she and Scott got home from the hair salon and Lacey was never seen alive again. Scott could have killed her that night or the following morning. Interestingly, neighbours said that the first thing Lacey did when she woke up was to open all of the curtains in the house. And on the morning of the 24th of December, the curtains were not opened, even though Scott says that Lacey woke up and had breakfast at least half an hour before he did.

The prosecution also asserted that after killing Lacey Scott cleaned up and that's why the mop was out. Then he wrapped her up and put her in the bed of his truck hidden by the three garden parasols that we were talking about last week that he had loaded up on the bed of his truck that day. Then he drove Lacey's body to his office where he moved her onto his boat and then he hooked his aluminium boat onto his truck, packed his fishing gear, forgot his saltwater lures and then drove to San Francisco Bay. Yeah and some people will point out here that he was only at his office for 25 minutes. We said that last week. He gets there, he does some emailing, he does some googling. Remember the

mortiser? He does a google to look up how to assemble this woodwork tool. And people are like, well, the tool had only arrived a few days before and it was assembled after that. And he had sat there and Googled how to assemble it. So are you telling me that he got there, Googled how to assemble a tool, wrote some emails to his boss, assembled that tool and found the time to move Lacey's body into the boat and like attach it to the truck and all of that stuff we only have his word for it that that tool was assembled that day him googling how to assemble a mortiser does not prove that that's when he assembled it like that's not proof he lies he lies all the time so people are like in that 25 minutes he couldn't have had time to do all of that and assemble the tool no one fucking saw when the tool was assembled it is again yet an

unverifiable piece of evidence that we only have his word for. So coming back to the prosecution. They were able to show at trial that Scott had also researched the tidal patterns that we had talked about last week. Before he had even bought a boat. Which is quite advanced planning. And they were also able to show. You would do that though. I would do that.

But I wouldn't kill my wife. Yet. And they also were able to show that he had focused on the current patterns specifically around the area of Brooks Island, the exact place he went on Christmas Eve. Brooks Island is also directly parallel to the strip of shoreline where Connor and Lacey's bodies were found. And also, going back to that Christmas Eve interview that Scott Peterson does with Al Brichini, in that he's like, oh, I just found this little island that was sort of covered in trash and I thought that would be a good place to go fishing. He had googled that island by name. He knew what that island was called, but he pretends like he doesn't know what it's called and it was all just so spur-of-the-moment.

So anyway, the prosecution had an expert hydrologist testify that the tidal flow of the bay would have led to both bodies washing up where they did if they had been dumped exactly where Scott was fishing, off Brooks Island. The defence discredited this witness, saying that he had no expertise to make such claims. And like, maybe not. Maybe he fucking doesn't. But Lacey and Connor were found in the San Francisco Bay, not far from the island. So when people are like, he has no expertise to say this, that's where the fucking bodies were.

Often with this case, what you find is people acting like Scott is being railroaded. Like the police spend all of their time looking in San Francisco Bay, ignoring every other possible avenue, and that they never found the body or that the body was found like on the other side of the state and they still went after Scott, completely changing like their narrative about how he had done it. No, no, no. The police are like, we think it's him. We think the bodies are in San Francisco Bay because that's where he was that day. They spend months looking there and then they find them there. So Scott and his defenders also will always say that he was an avid fisherman. He even took Lacey on a deep sea fishing expedition on

their first date for example. So they say that him researching nautical charts and currents and tidal patterns buying a boat and going fishing were just you know part and parcel they were standard practice for Scott. But let's remember that he did all of his research, his boatie research, on the 8th of December. And he bought his boat on the 9th of December, at the same time he was having to break the news that he'd lost his wife to Amber Fry, and also two weeks before Lacey vanished.

And very interestingly, he had bought a two-day fishing licence for San Francisco Bay on the 20th of December, four days before she went missing odd that he had a two-day fishing license applied for in advance for those two specific days when he claims that he decided to go fishing on the spur of the moment on the morning of christmas eve who buys a fishing license for christmas eve and christmas day a two-day fishing license and also if he's an avid fisherman why doesn't he already have a fucking boat yeah and also why does he already not have

a full year pass this is very interesting a two-day pass costs about twelve dollars a full year's license something that scott hadn't owned since 1994 cost thirty dollars you only have to go fishing twice basically to make your money back. So it didn't really look like he was planning on using that boat much. It's just fucking ridiculous. Honestly, I just don't know what to say. Well, I've got loads of things to say. Let's carry on. We've also got an expert that takes the stand at trial

to assess avid fisherman Scott's set-up that day. Apparently his rods were not set up properly, and some of them didn't even have lines attached. Seems like a very half-assed attempt from someone who just drove 90 miles on Christmas Eve and did all of that googling and research on current patterns and tidal trends and just bought a fucking boat. But he forgot his laws, Hannah.

We all know that the best story at trial wins. So the prosecution had to explain the state of Lacey's body. And this is what they put forward. They put forward the idea that the most likely scenario is that Lacey had been weighed down by something attached to her arms, one of her feet and her head. And that when her body had decayed to the point that those limbs detached, Lacey had literally fallen apart and risen to the surface, helped by a storm that had raged over the bay the night before she and Connor were discovered. This fits with her headless, lower armless, and one footless body washing up on the shore. The prosecution even claimed to know what had been used to weigh her down. Scott had made his boat an anchor using cement. One anchor was found on the boat by police

but at his garage they found the wooden plank that he'd used to make it on. So he basically has like a mould and he's sort of like setting it on top of this wooden plank and on this plank they spotted several cement rings. And people dispute whether you can see these rings or not. I think you can, or at least you can see a lot of cement on it. And it's a big old plank to make one cement anchor. But again, you know, make up your own mind. The interesting thing is, even if you don't think there are cement rings on there, his bag of cement was empty. So where was the rest of it? Scott claimed that he'd used the leftover cement that he had mixed after making his one anchor to fill in a hole in his driveway at home.

But the bag of dry cement was found in his garage. So what, he mixed the cement there and then drove it 10 minutes wet to his house. Or, it's equally stupid. I have in fact mixed cement myself. Oh, do tell. Do tell. So what you do if you don't have a cement mixer is you put the powder on the ground, you put water on it, and then you go over it with a spade until it looks like sand, like wet sand, right?

Labor intensive. Uh-huh. I think I did it because I think a gardener was at our house or something, and I was just like a really irritating child, and he was like, go over there and mix the cement. So he could have taken the powder out of the cement bag, left the bag and then transported that to his house and mixed it at his house with water and a spade. But again, why would you do that? Exactly.

You just put the bag in the van. Exactly. Everything could be something else, right? And the prosecution said that they had an expert who confirmed that the cement on the driveway and that that had been used to make the anchor were not the same. So they're saying that's not what he did with the rest of the cement. But the defense said that they had someone who could confirm that it was the exact same cement. You can find an expert to say anything. We say

this all the time on the show. So you just have to ask yourself, what makes more sense? Did this man buy an entire bag of cement and only make one singular anchor an anchor again i'm not a boat expert that other boat experts have said was not heavy enough to weigh down that 14 foot aluminium boat so where are the rest of them the defense needed to counter all of the boat narrative presented by the prosecution so they created a little experiment which i feel like defense councils in the united states fucking love these you don't see it here really no it's so like theatrical they love it especially a garrigos like he is made for this shit here's what they did they got a guy a boat and a dummy that weighed 150 pounds and they sent all of these happy merry men out onto the San Francisco Bay and then they filmed this

solitary guy as he tried to tie four anchors to the dummy and push it overboard and this guy makes it seem totally impossible he's falling over constantly he's slipping all over the place at multiple points he looks like he's going to drown and the defense conclude that thanks to this demonstration if you can even call it that, they conclude that it would have been impossible to dump Lacey's body overboard. The judge, however, disallowed the video from being submitted to the court. And despite what Scott's defenders say, the judge was absolutely right to do so because firstly, it is not even the same type of boat. It's similar. I'll give them that, But it's not the same.

This is a death penalty charge. Like, get the same boat, for God's sake. It's just sitting there in his house. It's not doing anything. Secondly, the man that they used in this demonstration was about £130. Scott is £200, or was £200 at the time. That's a big difference. This guy is tiny compared to Scott. And the way the defence remedied this discrepancy was to tie weights to the boat actor man so obviously it's gonna make it a more difficult for him to move and not drown they've literally just weighed this man down and sent him out to sea and giving someone ankle weights or whatever they fucking did doesn't give them the strength of a

man who was 70 pounds larger than them it doesn't make any sense it's laughable it is the whole thing was completely farcical for example you can watch the video of this demonstration it is on youtube in the video you see the man just keeps trying to like push the dummy over the side of the boat and the boat keeps tipping over it capsizes all this sort of like chaos is going on but any boat expert don't even need to be a boat expert. Anyone who's been on a fucking boat, who's jumped off a boat, will tell you that you jump off, you throw things off the end of the boat. The part of the boat that is more stable.

You don't throw things off or jump off the side of the boat or the boat's going to fucking capsize. And this idea that it was impossible for Scott to have thrown Lacey overboard. Let's clarify. Scott was six foot and 200 pounds. Lacey was shorter than me. She was five foot one and maybe 150 pounds pregnant. And someone chucked Lacey's body off a boat into the bay.

Her body was not dumped at the marina because of where it was found. She must have been dumped off a boat. So trying to prove that it's impossible for her to be pushed off a boat is outrageous because obviously somebody did. Exactly. And why couldn't it have been Scott? He certainly had the physicality to do it. The only way, the only way that it would have been easier for somebody to dump Lacey's body off a boat would have been if they had had a bigger boat and possibly more hands. But then I would argue also that more people on a boat could cause it to be more unstable. You could argue it either way. We'll come back to the issues

with this particular theory later. All I will say is the idea that it was impossible for Scott to get Lacey's body over the boat that he had is nonsense. And the judge even said to Mark Garagos and the defence, I'm not going to allow this video because you've got fucking weights tied to this guy, but I will let you do the experiment again and film it again while I am there. Geragos turned it down. The defence also pushed the point that the police never looked at anyone else for the crime, claiming that they focused solely on Scott and ignored vital leads, like a burglary that occurred in the Medina house, the house across the street from the Petersons' home. A neighbour reported to the police that at 11.40am on the 24th of December,

so the day that Lacey vanished, she saw some suspicious-looking men and a van on the street opposite the Petersons' house in front of the Medina's house. The police found the two men responsible and ruled them out of having been involved in Lacey's murder, and a lot of people are very sceptical about how the police managed to rule these men out. And here's why. The burglars claim that they had carried out the burglary on the 26th of December and not on the 24th. But the eyewitness saw them there on the 24th, and by the 26th, with Lacey already missing, the street was awash with reporters. Someone would have seen a burglary if it had happened

on the 26th. So the burglars are clearly lying about something. Yeah, they're clearly lying about the day on which they carried out the burglary. I do think it happened on the 24th. But for a lot of people, this lie makes them look incredibly suspicious. I do find it hilarious that Scott's supporters will be like, well, you can't't trust them they're burglars and they're liars and i'm like well scott's a cheater and a liar but we we have to trust him okay so the point though that these people make is that surely if you have some criminals in the area burglarizing a home opposite the petersons they must be viable suspects and i'm not saying they shouldn't have been looked at of course they should have been looked at. And they were. These people argue,

what if Lacey had come out to take Mackenzie for a walk, seen the burglars, and maybe said something to them? So they abducted her, killed her, and then dumped her body. Well, maybe. But there are quite a few issues with this theory. Firstly, Scott said that when he left the house that day, on the morning of Christmas Eve, Lacey was mopping. We know that he left just after 10am. And like we said last week, he changes the timing he leaves quite a few times, but we know that it was just after 10am because the voicemail that he got from his boss came in at 10.08am and at the start of that call Scott's phone pings off the cell tower near his house but by the end of that call which just lasted a few minutes his phone was pinging off the cell tower near his office and his house to his office is about a

10 minute drive so we know that he was already on the move roughly about this time so about 10.08. Karen Severus the neighbor who found mackenzie in the street with his lead on and returned the dog to the peterson's yard did so at 10 18 a.m and she has literal receipts to prove that that was the time that she did that so for the burglary abduction timeline to work lacy who was mopping when scott left around 1008 would have had to have stopped put put the lead on the dog, gone out, been interrupted by a burglary,

then been abducted, leaving Mackenzie to be found by a neighbour all within the space of 10 minutes. And those 10 minutes were in the morning, in broad daylight, and nobody on the street saw or heard a thing. And they're awake enough, they're like alert enough to notice

what Lacey does every morning and draws her curtains. Like, it's not like they're not looking, you know. No, it's suburbia. Also, when neighbour Karen found Mackenzie, she didn't report that the dog seemed agitated or stressed. Mackenzie is a retriever. Like he's a big dog. I just can't believe that that type of dog would just be calm within minutes of being found.

Because like you said, Scott left, let's say at 10.08. Lacey comes out, gets abducted and Mackenzie is found by Karen within 10 minutes she must have been abducted just minutes before Karen found him and Karen didn't see anything and Mackenzie is totally fucking chill and as we'll go on to discover Mackenzie was a barker he wouldn't have just sat there if Lacey had been taken while he was there. Scott himself says in that first interview that he gave the police on Christmas Eve that Mackenzie was a quote, very protective dog. So if Mackenzie had barked, as we would expect, how did no one see or hear any commotion? Also, what's all burglars abduct a woman with a massive fucking dog?

And how does the dog get out of that unharmed? You abduct this woman and then you let the dog just run away. It wasn't even running, it was just wandering around in the street. The other problem for me is that these burglars had waited until the Medinas, the family who lived in the house they targeted, left for the holidays before they went in. This was their whole plan. They sat and they waited until the Medinas were gone.

This is a very different type of crime to abducting and murdering a pregnant woman in broad daylight. Going into a house you know is empty to steal is not the same as murdering a pregnant woman. And you might disagree, you might think, you know, one type of criminal is the same as any type of criminal. I disagree, but maybe you think differently. So even if you can buy all of the rest of it, there is a huge issue as to the timeline for this theory to make sense. Because the Medinas have stated that they did not leave that day, so Christmas Eve, until 10.30am. But Mackenzie was found wandering the street at 10.18am. And the neighbour who saw the burglars saw them at 11.40am. If Mackenzie was on the street because Lacey was abducted while she was walking him, then she would have had to have been taken between 10.10, 10.08,

roughly about that time, and 10.18 when Karen finds Mackenzie. So that would have been before the burglars even went into the Medina house. Yes, it doesn't add up really, does it? The Medinas were still in the house at this point so then we have to believe that lacy saw these men casing the place they catch sight of her there's a confrontation they abduct her and somehow silently because like i said there's no reports that anyone heard or saw anything they knock her out or kill her they leave the dog to wander off quietly not making a sound and then take the huge risk of staying there on the street with lacy either dead or unconscious in their van until they've managed to burgle the medina home and then they drive off with her and then in this fantasy

story these burglars kill her if they hadn't already and then they dump her body 90 miles away in the exact same place that her husband happened to go fishing that very same day this is what i'm saying there's just too many of them. There's too many of them. And that's why, I mean, as we have extensively discussed in the office over the past few weeks, that's why I find the argument so frustrating of the people who defend him. It's like, yes, of course, any of these things in isolation could be explained away, but not all of them. No, not even slightly for me. Still, the defence have a job to do.

So they theorise that whoever killed Lacey may have dumped her body in the San Francisco Bay because they wanted to frame Scott. But why? Yeah, they say that all of the media attention, all the police like, you know, showing them constantly searching the San Francisco Bay. These people were like,

aha, what do we do with this murdered pregnant woman we've got? Let's go dump her body 90 miles away from where we killed her to frame her husband, even though no one's looking at us. And this is why it doesn't work. If it was a stranger abduction, which, mon chéri, they are incredibly rare. A home invasion ending in a murder is incredibly rare. And also being abducted by someone you don't know, equally incredibly rare. Of course it happens but barely if this is a stranger abduction killing why would they even bother

to hide her body let alone try to frame her husband surely they would just dump her body in the first ditch they saw get away from it or bury it somewhere or there's a bajillion things you could do one of the freshwater lakes except there's loads of other options other than the San Francisco Bay. And also, as we know, the police were at the San Francisco Bay regularly after Lacey vanished because they suspected Scott. You would like to hope that they would notice someone dumping a body of a pregnant woman in there. Yeah. And also, if you were the burglars who had killed her, why would you take the enormous risk of taking her to the place where you know the police are in order to dump her body when any shallow pit grave woods would have done also these two guys that they arrested where did they get a bigger boat than scott had i would love to know because when

you see them they're just like two fucking low-end criminals where have they got a bigger boat in order to allow them to dump lacy's body. Because remember, the defence said that it was impossible to dump a body out of the one that was the size that Scott had. And okay, this is where I said we were going to come back to the fact that maybe it would be easier if there were two of you. Well, I don't know. The very fact that there were two of them makes it less likely to me because while the defence can argue that this would have made it easier for them to dump a body into the bay, it also kind of makes it less likely that both of them would have stayed quiet. One of them would have presumably led on the kill.

One of them is probably the more dominant one. And both of them were going to get sent down for the burglary anyway. Wouldn't one turn on the other in order to get a plea deal if they had actually killed Lacey? And these two guys look like the fucking burglars out of Home Alone. I do not believe for a second that they managed to pull all of this off and not get seen for one second and have any iota of suspicion towards them. I think they absolutely lie that they committed the burglary on the 26th because I think they're so scared of being associated with this.

But I don't think that that's what happened. And finally, as Hannah has alluded to, let's look at the stats, shall we, and just assess the likelihood of these various scenarios. Because what do we all think is the leading cause of death for pregnant women in the US? I believe that this is the same for the UK as well, but these stats are from the US. Well, it's homicide. And the killer is usually a partner, ex-partner, or the baby daddy. We've talked about this before. We've talked about how when women are in dangerous relationships,

and I'm not saying Scott Peterson was hitting Lacey before that. A lot of people say there was no evidence of that. I don't think there was. But we also know that that doesn't mean anything. We also know that when women are pregnant, that is when they are at the highest risk of being murdered by their partner. And it's so interesting, isn't it? Because loads of fucking pro-life people, Kanye included, will be like, oh, like the most dangerous place for a baby to be is in the mother's womb. The

most dangerous time to be a woman is when you've got a baby in you. Yeah. And for comparison, a study that looked into household burglaries that resulted in a homicide, found that of the 2.1 million that took place in the US between 2003 and 2007, 0.004% of them ended in homicide. Now I know before everybody yells at me that is not a perfect comparison. I'm just asking you to consider what is more statistically likely. Garagos also claimed at trial that police had botched the investigation and that some serious misconduct had occurred. For example, during the investigation there had been leaks from the police to the media. There were reports that vomit had been cleaned up near the pool at the Petersons,

that there was a smell of bleach at the house and that the mop and bucket in the kitchen had blood on them. None of that was true. And Geragos argued that the prosecution had no physical evidence at all that the murder had been committed by Scott, or even that it had happened in his home. After all, forensics had been all over that house with a fine tooth comb and found nothing. But again, that doesn't prove anything, because absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. In a case of manual strangulation, there would be no blood, for example, only mess from a struggle that could easily be cleaned away and mopped up.

At trial, Detective Albrechini did also have to admit to an omission from his police report. Again, we'll talk about it, but I don't see how this particular point makes a difference as to Scott being guilty or not. But I understand that the defence had to bring it up because it would have brought Bruchini's bias into account and raised questions about his thoroughness. Because Bruchini said that Lacey had never been to Scott's garage slash office and that she didn't know about the boat. But a person who had the unit opposite Scott's told police that Lacey had actually been there the day before and that they told police that Lacey had actually been there the day before. And that they knew this because Lacey had actually asked to use her loo.

For some reason, Brichini redacted this from his report. It seemed like the defence were saying basically that he was really invested in making it seem like this was a secret boat. And the defence argued that Lacey knew about the boat and actually it was going to be a present for Lacey's dad, like stepdad. But like Lacey's stepdad is like a proper fisherman who had a nice boat why would he want a 14 foot aluminium secondhand piece of shit like Scott bought so I don't know secret boat not secret boat I don't really think it makes much of a difference and the police were also shown to not have recorded certain other things in their reports like when they had asked Scott outright at the start of the investigation if he had a girlfriend, and he said no.

They didn't record this anywhere, and this would have helped their case. So I think it's just the fact that I'm not making excuses for them, obviously as a detective, as somebody investigating a missing woman that turns into a homicide investigation, your thoroughness is going to be pulled up at trial. But they omitted things that would have helped them, as well as things that make them look like they were biased. So yes, mistakes were made,

and Brichini definitely honed in on Scott early in the investigation. But they certainly looked at other suspects. And also, the defence make it seem like the police, again, were on this total fishing expedition, constantly searching the San Francisco Bay. But once again, they miss out the key point that that's exactly where they found Lacey and Connor. During the trial, the prosecution and defence had very different styles. The prosecution actually seemed to have been pretty boring

being described by those who were there as lacking passion. Geragos on the other hand was a bulldog and you would hope so for a million fucking dollars. He was theatrical and brash and knew how to spin a good tale and he knew that spin a good tale. And he knew that Amber Frye was coming. So Geragos even said in his opening statement, you're not going to like my client, making it clear that infidelities were not to hamper the jury's view on whether or not Scott Peterson was guilty of murder. As we said last week,

a love rat does not a murderer make but there was no doubting that Amber Frye would play a huge role in this trial and boy did she she turned up took the stand and had the receipts the prosecution played call after call after call that she had secretly recorded with Scott after Lacey disappeared the The lies, the sex, the scandal, it was unbelievable. And so many people who endlessly defend Scott Peterson go after Amber. They say that she and Scott had only been seeing each other for a little while, she should have got over it and got on with her life, but instead she was out for revenge, willing to do anything to bring him down. And they paint her as this sort of crazed, bunny-boiling, scorned woman.

It's not at all. It's such a lazy argument. It is. They make it sound like basically she's just pissed that he lied to her. And so she goes to the police, gets this secret recorder, and then she's constantly calling him trying to get stuff out of him. He's on the call to her for hours. I can't remember who calls who from the candlelight vigil,

but he calls her back at midnight California time, time because remember he's pretending to be in paris and he talks to her for an hour that is not a man who's being harassed by a woman that he has no interest in so please enough with that argument and enough with smearing amber fry constantly it makes me sick i she's actually kind of my hero like can you imagine finding out what she's found out and instead of just like going into a depression pit, going down to the fucking police station and being like, what can I do? I have so much time for Amber. Get it, Amber.

And people will be like, oh, she wrote a book after and got money. So? You would too. I fucking would. Do it. Get that bag. Scott lied to Amber repeatedly about everything. He told her he'd lost his wife and he was sobbing and putting on this big drama.

He dragged Amber into this mess so to make it look like she's any sort of agent in this is absolutely gross and it's worst thing is like so many women you see doing this that's what i was just gonna say all of the examples of that argument i have seen are women women on women and i i don't i think she's a hero and again i'm not here to be like you should blindly defend her because she's a woman i'm saying she is dragged into this by scott peterson if you listen to the calls we have played you the clips if you look at the time stamps for how long these calls went on for almost every single call that was submitted by the prosecution from amber to the trial were all over an hour long. That is not a man.

Scott Peterson, say what you will about him. Does he strike you as the kind of man who does anything that he doesn't want to do? No. Do you think he would be on the phone to a woman he didn't want to talk to for that long? It's nonsense. I also find it laughable that so many people who support Scott say that Amber Frye's tapes are irrelevant, claiming that just because he had an affair, it doesn't make him a killer.

We've said this time and time again. And basically they say that Amber Frye was nothing more than a character witness and that these tapes served only to make the jury emotional and angry and blinkered them from being able to see the truth. But I'm not having it. Yes, Scott Peterson is a massive piece of shit for cheating on his eight and a half month pregnant wife. We can all agree on that. But that is not what makes Amber's testimony or the tapes important, at least to me. The tapes recorded at Lacey's

vigil and over the course of January 2003, so after Lacey has been missing for weeks and as the time was edging closer and closer to Connor's due date in February Scott was phoning his secret girlfriend he thinks no one knows about for hot steamy chats and this whole like he's a sex addict thing like please give it a rest and this is important because these calls after Lacey goes missing are totally different to pre Lacey vanishing affair. If you could show me a man who had been having an affair before his wife vanished, then his wife goes missing and he completely ends that and he's focused on finding his wife even if he doesn't love her anymore, whatever, I'd be like that's not evidence of much. But he continues it and he loves

it. So I think it's so important because this behaviour after Lacey went missing shows a man who had absolutely zero concern for the safety or well-being of his wife and unborn child and it certainly looks like a man who had a very clear motive to get his pregnant wife out of the picture. And again we're not saying so he could be with Amber before everybody tells us well she's got a kid blah blah blah. We covered that very extensively last week. Also the fact that Scott had told Amber two weeks before Lacey vanished that this would be the first holiday he'd be spending without his lost wife. Again, are you really telling me he's the most unlucky man in the world?

Or is it a clear sign of premeditation? And that brings us on to the bit of the story that the defence went after the hardest to try and convince people that Scott just had to be innocent. Baby Connor. Connor's body had been found on its own, separated from Lacey, and his body was in much better condition than his mother's. The defence therefore claim that Connor must have been born and killed or died after Lacey and then dumped in the San Francisco Bay later.

Why would they claim this? This is why. Because it means they can say Scott, who was being watched night and day after Lacey vanished, couldn't have done it. So Lacey must have been abducted. Both the prosecution and the defence pull onto the stand experts who claim to know exactly when Connor died. The prosecution's expert said that Connor couldn't have died any later than the 23rd or the 24th of December. The defence's expert said that baby Connor couldn't have died any earlier than the 29th of December, five days after Lacey was seen. In reality, it would be next to impossible for either of these experts to definitively prove the gestational age of Connor,

a foetus that was eight and a half months old, down to the day or even the week. By that stage, the foetus is basically fully formed, and the size and growth rate can vary massively. And it's not constantly changing like with a younger fetus. So for either of them to say that they can pinpoint the day that this fetus Connor died is nonsense. For them to say he didn't die any later than the 23rd or the 24th or any earlier than the 29th, it's just not something you can prove. And while there's all this talk on the internet about what the defense's expert said regarding the size and

length of tibias and fibias to prove that Connor lived past the 24th of December, sure, okay, if you want to believe that, if you want to believe that that is real science, if you want to believe that you can prove gestational age down to a day, fine. But it still leaves a huge question open as to how then Connor was born. Because for as bad a condition as Lacey's body was when it washed ashore, they did have enough to say in the autopsy that Lacey Peterson never gave birth. If a vaginal birth had occurred pre or post-mortem, there would have been evidence. It would have been obvious.

And before anybody's like her body was in the water for four months how could you have told if there had been a vaginal birth well you can tell if there's a vaginal birth from the female pelvis bones so even if there was just bone which wasn't the case even if there was just bone they would have been able to tell if Lacey had had a vaginal birth and she hadn hadn't. No such birth, pre or post-mortem, had occurred. And this is a grisly fact that I wish I hadn't discovered, but I had, and so you can all know about it too. A post-mortem vaginal birth,

where the baby is expelled through the vaginal canal after the mother's death, is known as a coffin birth. Jesus. Yep. And I just want to clarify, this has been reported in places that that's what happened, that she had a coffin birth. That's not what happened. Again, if that had happened,

they would have seen it in the autopsy. So just to be crystal clear, Connor was not born vaginally to Lacey Peterson pre or post her death. There were also no cuts to her abdomen, indicating a C-section had been performed. So Connor had not been cut out of Lacey while she was alive or after she was dead. So how did Connor get out? Clearly, not while Lacey was alive. And if you thought coffin death was bad, this is worse. The most likely scenario, the only one that makes sense, given the evidence, is that baby Connor was inside Lacey's body the entire four months she lay at the bottom of the San Francisco Bay.

The reason he was less decomposed than his mum was because her body protected his from the water and from the elements. For example, if you put a body in a suitcase and then put it in the water, it will decay slower than a body that is just straight in the water with no protection they are going to decompose at different rates and even more than that he's in an amniotic sack he's in an airtight tupperware essentially like nothing's getting at him yeah and i just want to say this because i'm sure some people will bring it up is that all of lacy's internal organs were missing and you know not there i believe there were even barnacles growing on her

bones how long she'd been down there which is just when I read that I honestly burst into tears because that's the most just fucking grim thing I've heard in such a long time but again the thing is here you have to weigh up the other possibilities and there is no explanation for how else Connor could have been born. So the answer must be that he was inside Lacey. There isn't another explanation. So even if it doesn't make total sense because her other organs are missing, the idea that he was born or cut out of her can be proven that that didn't happen. So here is what makes sense. Connor is inside Lacey and then when her head detached the night of the storm, thanks to whatever was weighing her down, probably concrete,

Connor came out of the top of Lacey's torso and they were separated. I don't really see how else you could explain them being found relatively close together within a day. They're found a mile apart on the shore, 18 hours apart. The defence have a crack at it, ignoring the fact that there was no way that Connor could have got out of Lacey's body without there being very clear evidence that that is what he had done. They claim that he was born and then killed or died and then whoever had him disposed of his body in the exact same place they had dumped Lacey. Again, for the squillionth time, why would

anybody do that? Especially because the police are there the whole time if you believe this theory that means you believe that these people whoever they may be just so happened to dump connor's body at the exact same time that lacey was found as well yeah and connor's body is found first by the way it's 18 hours later that lacey's body is found it's too much man so you can't even say that lacey's body was found and then these people were like, aha, it's our chance now to get rid of this baby that we've been keeping. Let's go dump him down the same shoreline. For what purpose? And also, he's found first.

What a fucking ginormous coincidence. The other point often jumped on by Scott's supporters is that of the dog walking eyewitnesses. So basically on Christmas Eve 2002, several people, 12 to be precise, claimed to have seen a pregnant woman matching Lacey's description walking a dog matching Mackenzie's description around the local area, including in the park where Lacey often walked the dog. One witness even said she saw the woman

with the dog being shouted at by two men in the park. But there are several issues with these sightings. Firstly, as much as the documentary makes it sound like all of them saw Lacey, they actually all say that they saw a pregnant, and in some cases, just a round woman walking a dog. Now, some of them obviously, since it's come out that they could be a vital eyewitness, say that they saw Lacey. But at the time, they say that they saw Lacey but at the

time they say that they saw a pregnant woman or a round woman and the prosecution were able to bring in literally like a parade of women who kind of look like Lacey who were walking their dog that same day so it was just nonsense and also in suburban California the idea of seeing a pregnant woman walking a dog hardly seems to be definitive. Now, don't get me wrong. Some of them claim, like I said, that they absolutely did see Lacey. But not one of them had a direct interaction with the woman. Not one of them had a conversation with the woman to confirm that it was indeed Lacey that they saw.

They also claim that the woman had been wearing a white top and black leggings or trousers. This matches with what Scott had said Lacey was wearing the day that she vanished. And also what she'd been wearing the night before, the night they went to see her sister Amy. But are these people just making something they saw that day fit with Scott's description of Lacey that morning? Because when Lacey was found, she was actually wearing beige maternity trousers, not black leggings. The outfit she'd worn the night before, which is probably what Scott was describing, was found hanging up in her wardrobe. These witnesses also all made their sightings of the woman and the dog after 10.18am, which makes Scott fans very happy because it would mean that if it was Lacey,

Scott was already at his office by then, so he couldn't have killed her. And these dog-walking eyewitnesses also tie in with another huge point made in this documentary about the postman and his evidence. Scott's family in this documentary basically say that the Petersons' postman was never heard from in court. They say the jury were never allowed to hear the postman's testimony and so therefore they didn't have all of the information. And they say that this happened because the prosecution didn't give the defense this information during discovery. But this is just not true. The postman testified. I can find and have read the postman's testimony. Mr Russell Greybill, the postman, delivered a parcel to the

Peterson house between 10.35 and 10.50am on the 24th of December, the day that Lacey vanished. He said that the back garden gate was open and that Mackenzie did not bark at him like he usually did. So again, Scott's supporters say that Lacey must have taken Mackenzie out for a walk after neighbour Karen returned him to the garden at 10.18, because he wasn't there when Russell delivered the parcel. And therefore, Lacey must have been alive after 1018. But the problem is that once again this makes so very little sense because if the

12 eyewitnesses did see Lacey after 1018 and Mackenzie really wasn't there when the postman came by that means that the dog must have got out of the Petersons' garden while, say, Lacey was mopping the house, like Scott said she was when he left. Then he was returned to the garden by neighbour Karen. Lacey then had taken Mackenzie out for a walk, oblivious to his little escape, been spotted by all of these people, and during this walk she must have been abducted, and Mackenzie must once again therefore have been found wandering the streets with his leash on and returned once again to the Peterson's garden by another mystery person who to this day has never come forward because Mackenzie was in the garden with his leash on when Scott got home at 4 30 p.m. so if Lacey was abducted on this dog walk how the fuck did Mackenzie get back into

the garden oh and between the mopping and taking Mackenzie out, Lacey must have changed her clothes, but also she can't have because those people saw her all in a white top and black trousers, but when her body was found she was wearing beige maternity pants. What? If you can't buy that the dog was returned a second time, the only explanation that fits is all of the above happened, except Lacey did get home safely from her walk, and then she got changed and was abducted from her house.

But there was absolutely no evidence that anyone had ever entered the house there was no evidence of struggle that scott reported seeing when he got home that afternoon this is the thing it's again it's like if she was abducted from the house why would burglars clean up after themselves and how could they have taken her so calmly with no evidence behind maybe maybe they managed to take her with no physical evidence behind because like we said there doesn't always have to be physical evidence. But again, no one saw a single thing? I don't know. And on top of everything else, I'm going to keep saying it.

This is the thing. People bring up a point that isn't easily explainable and they pretend that that negates everything else we've talked about. Finally, several of Lacey's friends testified that by the end of Lacey's pregnancy, she'd been struggling. She was in a lot of pain and she could barely walk. They said that a few days before she vanished, she had to be helped out of a yoga class and walk to her car because she was in so much pain. So actually, it's unlikely she would have been walking Mackenzie at

all. But whether or not you agree that these witnesses are credible or not, guess who didn't think they were worth very much? Mark Geragos. Because he didn't call a single one of them to testify at trial. Why? Because he knew this was all nonsense. He knew that the prosecution would just make the exact same argument we just made. And he knew that they would be able to present this parade of women

who looked like Lacey who were walking their dogs that day. He knew, he knew that it didn't make any sense. And he knew that it would have torn the defense's argument apart in court and completely undermined them. And say what you will about Mark Geragos, but he's a very good defense attorney. You can say he's brash and rude and loud and crass. He is, but he's good at what he does. And Mark Geragos tried everything. He even went as far as to pull in some good old-fashioned satanic panic. You knew it was coming.

In the case that has everything, you can't leave it out. The case that just keeps giving. Because the defense genuinely tried to point the finger at a satanic cult being responsible for killing Lacey and Connor. They claim that devil worshippers just love to kill on the 24th of December because it's some sort of holy day for satanists. Is it? I don't fucking know. I don't fucking know. I was thinking about that this morning. The only argument I could come up with for why it might be a satanic celebration. Please. Is it celebrating the last day that the earth didn't have jesus christ maybe is the only argument i can think well garagos gives some more

he says that this is a very important day in the satanic calendar and that they wanted lacy's baby for a sacrifice he even said the road that the petersons live on is called covina Road and he's like sounds like coven oh my god I know send help I know so the defense backed this whole satanic panic satanic cult theory up by saying that when Connor's body was found there was a piece of string entangled around his neck and body and a bit of black tape stuck to his ear firstly why would anyone strangle a fetus to death? Why would you do that? It's gonna die. Why would you use string? So the string that Garagos described as a noose-like object and the tape that are found stuck to Connor clearly are just debris from the water of the bay. I've only been to the San Francisco Bay once and looked at it. I can't remember, but I'm presuming like most bodies of water in major cities,

it's probably gross and filled with... Especially after a storm. Yes. And so I find it really shocking to see so many people out there being like, well, how do you explain the string? I have also been quite surprised by how... I'm like, pretty easily. Virulently, people are like, but the string, I'm like...

It's rubbish. It's, there was just been a storm and it's it's literal rubbish yeah the string is literal rubbish are you serious if he had been found in a shallow grave in the desert and he had string wrapped around his body in his neck okay connor is found in the san francisco bay and he has some string wrapped around him and a bit of tape stuck to his ear garagos also pointed out that seven other women had gone missing in the area whilst they were pregnant, and one of them, Evelyn Hernandez, her body turned up in the San Francisco Bay too, just like Lacey. But we already know, because we already told you, that pregnant

women are at high risk of being murdered by their partners, not by satanic cults. The trial eventually wrapped up in November 2003, almost five months after it had started, and the jury were sent for deliberation. But this jury had its problems. One of the jurors was removed about five days into the trial because she had admitted to googling the case. A few weeks into the trial, juror number five, Justin Falconer, was dismissed after he spoke to Lacey's brother one day about the media standing outside taking photos justin falconer was replaced by richelle

nice who would go on to gain the nickname strawberry shortcake because of her dyed red hair and i mean i know she's difficult to forget but remember her because she comes up later on but for now we need to tell you about one more juror who was removed, foreman Gregory Jackson. Jackson had spent the entire trial filling up journal after journal with notes, and the other jurors, when it came to deliberation, found him relentless. He wanted everyone to obsessively go over every detail time and time again. The others grew frustrated with him and requested that he be dismissed, which he was. Now, people who support Scott say that apparently Gregory Jackson didn't think that Scott was guilty. And he was very insistent that they go over every piece of evidence and they're like, oh, look, he was the

one who didn't think Scott was guilty. And they complain about him because he wants to be thorough. And then the judge removed him. But they remove him saying that he was being like an obstructive member of the jury. I don't know what the precedent is on things like this, but the judge removed him. But they remove him saying that he was being, like, an obstructive member of the jury. I don't know what the precedent is on things like this, but the judge allowed it and removed this person. So we're not hiding it from you. We're telling you what happened. So soon after the foreman was removed, the jury announced that they had reached a verdict.

Guilty. Scott Peterson was found guilty of the first degree murder of Lacey Peterson and the second degree murder of Connor. And Scott Peterson was sentenced to death by lethal injection. And I found it really interesting in conversations after and interviews he does after in like a jailhouse phone call that he gives, Scott Peterson is able to describe in immense detail his devastation and the very real and agonising physical response he felt to being convicted. He gives a very, like, descriptive explanation of how this made him feel. Something he never really seemingly was able to convincingly convey when he found out about the murders of his pregnant wife and baby.

When Scott Peterson was found guilty, the crowds outside, because yes, there were huge numbers of people waiting outside the courthouse, erupted into cheers, and some of the jurors walked out and gave impassioned speeches to the media. Rochelle Nice, Strawberry Shortcake, was one of them. He is a jerk, and I have one comment for Scott. You look somebody in the face when they're talking to you. Well, just another day in paradise for Scott. You look somebody in the face when they're talking to you. Well, just another day in paradise for Scott. Another day that he had to go through emotions. But he's on his way home, Scott figured.

Well, guess what, Scotty? San Quentin's your new home. And it's illegal to kill your wife and child in California. You might find that a bit distasteful. We certainly do. It's actually completely unnecessary, tacky, and just far too bo boisterous considering that Lacey and Connor are still both dead. But what these impassioned speeches did is they made defenders of Scott Peterson double down on the idea that he had been convicted on hate, emotion and vitriol, which I think we have made ourselves quite clear. If you believe that, you have to ignore absolutely everything we've just discussed over the past two episodes.

Yeah, and also, if they had been recorded saying these kind of things halfway through the trial, absolutely. That is horrific. That is like complete juror bias because they haven't heard all of the evidence but they've already made up their minds about whether he's guilty or not. They're saying this after they've't heard all of the evidence but they've already made up their minds about whether he's guilty or not. They're saying this after they've listened to all of the evidence and after they've convicted him and after the sentencing has been done. So you might find it distasteful and tacky, like I said I certainly do, but they're allowed to have the opinions they have

after the work is done because they've already heard all of the evidence and reached a conclusion. So you'll remember from last week that we mentioned at the top of the episode that Scott Peterson managed to get his death sentence overturned in 2020. And that decision was based on reports that the judge had dismissed prospective jurors improperly. So essentially the judge dismissed from the jury pool anyone who didn't agree with the death penalty. Which they, I think they have to do that in death penalty trials don't they i think what they are meant to do is say whether you agree with the death penalty or not would you be open to exploring that as a sentence or handing it out as a sentence based on the fact that it is in the law and they're meant to answer yes but he kind of seemingly just did it to

anybody who disagreed with the death sentence i I disagree with the death sentence anyway, so I'm fine that that death sentence was overturned. We don't know if he's getting a new trial or not at the point of recording this, but I certainly hope he spends every last minute of his life in prison. But this latest appeal that, like we said at the time of recording, we are still waiting for the verdict on. You might be listening to this when the verdict is already out. We don't know. But basically, this appeal is based on prejudicial misconduct by juror Rochelle Nice, aka Strawberry Shortcake. Scott's appeal team are accusing her of lying her way onto the jury,

claiming that she concealed her past experience of domestic abuse and committed prejudicial misconduct when she filled in her jury questionnaire. So this questionnaire asked if she had been involved in a criminal proceeding in the past, and Rochelle Nice answered no. But it turned out that in 2000, when she was four and a half months pregnant, she had filed a lawsuit to get a restraining order against her then-boyfriend's ex-girlfriend who had been harassing her. But that case didn't go anywhere. And also, a lawsuit isn't a criminal

case it's a civil one it's also not really domestic abuse the lawsuit was against her boyfriend's ex-girlfriend yeah because the appeal team are saying it's because she has a past of domestic abuse but she was basically reporting someone who was stalking her who was another woman not her partner and also i would say that if they're gonna claim that this kind of thing is bias and you could argue whether rochelle nice understood the jury questionnaire when she was filling out or whether she outright lied to get on the trial that's a separate thing but if you're saying that this caused prejudicial bias against scott peterson because she had been a victim of a woman stalking

her i kind of feel like you would have to ask everybody if they had a child because that could cause them to be emotionally biased against scott peterson you would have to ask them if they had a child because that could cause them to be emotionally biased against Scott Peterson. You would have to ask them if they'd ever been cheated on. Like, I don't know. I just feel like, again, it's coming back to what we said last week. It's impossible in the system we have to make it perfect. So yes, you can argue whether she lied or not, but I don't know. We're all going to have to wait and see. We might have an answer as to whether or not Scott Peterson will be getting a new child by the time you are listening to this. And hopefully, hopefully we will know. And hopefully you will know so you can feel like a big smarty pants. As soon as we do know,

we'll be coming back with an update in the new year. So what do we think? Well, this whole case comes down to the fact that someone killed Lacey and dumped her body in the San Francisco Bay. Is there enough evidence that it was Scott? Or is there enough evidence that it was someone else or is there enough reasonable evidence that it was someone else? There's no evidence as far as I can see pointing to it being anyone else and as far as I can tell there's more than enough evidence pointing to it having been Scott. The timelines don't work for it to be anyone else. He also had the motives, means and opportunity. He had a boat, he went fishing to the place her body was eventually found, he was the last one to see her alive and so much of the narrative around this case, so much of the

little details are based just on what he tells us and he's a proven liar. Like so many stories that we tell you on this show, we will never know exactly what happened on that day. But it is likely that Scott had it in his head that he was going to do this. Something happened. Maybe Lacey saw a message from Amber. Interestingly, in the spare room, some duffel bags had been pulled off the shelf

and were lying on the floor. Was Lacey packing up to leave? Is that why Scott killed her? Yeah, like maybe she found out that day, but also she's eight and a half months pregnant. The clock was ticking for Scott. If he was going to do this, he had to do this now. So I think the reason that people sort of give Scott a lot of the benefit of the doubt in this and sort of are willing to look at the possibilities for why he may not have been the killer is I think people want cases like this to be more than they are. I think they want them to be more interesting, more horrific, more twisty turny with a shock plot twist like the latest TV crime drama. Like it wasn't the husband after all, it was this unsuspecting burglar or a satanic cult. But in real life, cases like that are rare. People are

typically killed by people they know. And heartbreakingly, pregnant women are all too often killed by their partners. That's it, guys. We did it. That is the two-parter on the murder of Lacey Peterson and Connor Peterson. And I truly, truly, truly hope that Scott Peterson does not get a new trial, mainly because I want him to spend the rest of his life in prison. And secondly, because I never, ever want to talk about him ever again, apart from giving you an update next year where I say he's not getting a new trial. So yeah, it has been a lot. There's a lot of research that went into this. And I know people might have different opinions. That's fair enough. I hope that you know at

Red Handed, we take our time. We are considered in how we reach our decisions and i've certainly changed my mind on whether people are guilty or not after i've started the research i just didn't feel that way at the end of this so yeah that's that so there you are scott peterson and yeah and two parts yeah and uh that is also that for red handed for the year 2022. 52 parts has come to a close. Absolutely. So guys, we hope you have a very Merry Christmas and a very Happy New Year. And we will be back next year with some absolute bangers of cases we're already working on. But we need like two weeks to just have a little break.

So there's not going to be any shorthand next week, but it will be back on the 3rd of January where we are actually going to be doing a shorthand on Diana, Princess Diana, Lady Di, the People's Princess. And we will be back with Red Handed proper on the 12th of January with the first of two parts on Mr. Jeffrey Epstein. Everyone have a wonderful time and we will see you in the the new year bright-eyed and bushy-tailed exactly hopefully we will be bright-eyed and bushy-tailed by then as well precisely have a lovely christmas don't abuse your family or whatever