RedHanded - In Conversation with Clair McGowan: Ireland's Vanishing Triangle

Episode Date: May 11, 2021

Between 1993 and 1998, eight women went missing from an area around Dublin that became known as the ‘Vanishing Triangle’. Was there a link? Speculation abounded. There were whispers of a serial killer, responsible for some, if not all, of these cases. But nobody was ever brought to justice. Twenty years later, the brutal murder of Jastine Valdez disturbs crime novelist Claire McGowan into action.  Reminded, like many in Ireland, of those previous missing women, McGowan brought her skills as a novelist to the real world, setting out to uncover the truth of the vanishing triangle. As she dug deeper, she found something terrible lurking behind the idyllic image of rural Ireland and the 21st-century success story of the ‘Celtic Tiger'.  In this exclusive interview, Claire speaks with the girls about her brand new Audible Original: 'The Vanishing Triangle', and in which attempts to uncover new evidence and solve the many questions surrounding Ireland's Vanishing Triangle.  This interview is available in video form for all $10+ Patrons right now! Subscribe to our YouTube channel Claire's incredible Audible Original: 'The Vanishing Triangle' can be found here  Follow Claire on Instagram and Twitter   See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to Red Handed early and ad-free. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. They say Hollywood is where dreams are made. A seductive city where many flock to get rich, be adored, and capture America's heart. But when the spotlight turns off, fame, fortune, and lives can disappear in an instant. Follow Hollywood and Crime, The Cotton Club Murder, on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, and welcome to another installment of Red Handed Does an Interview. This time,

we are speaking to author extraordinaire Claire McGowan. You might be familiar with Claire's works. She's predominantly actually a fiction writer. But in this particular interview, we spoke to Claire about her first foray into the world of true crime writing and her most recent Audible exclusive on The Vanishing Triangle in Ireland. If you would like to watch the full video of this interview, you can do so right now over on patreon.com slash red handed. On that note, if you haven't yet subscribed to the brand new Red Handed YouTube, follow the link in the episode description below. Go over and subscribe. Once we hit 20,000 subscribers over there, we're going to start regularly posting videos over there too. But for now, you can watch this over on Patreon or you can listen to the audio exactly as you are doing right now.

So enjoy. Well, welcome Claire McGowan to our Red Handhanded interview series we're extremely happy to have you here and you have just oh should we call it are you calling it a book are you calling an audiobook an audible project what's the right terminology I guess audiobook but I suppose yeah I don't quite understand the difference between an audiobook and a podcast I suppose in real terms so um yeah we definitely it was commissioned as an audiobook and a podcast I suppose in real terms so yeah we definitely it was commissioned as an audiobook and we've been calling it that. Okay cool and what what was it about creating an audiobook rather than a book that originally attracted you? It wasn't really

my idea it was more just an opportunity that came up because as you probably know audible audible content audio content rather is really has massively grown in popularity over the last few years I think it's gone up by 40 percent or something like that um so audible we're just looking for more true crime projects um after west cork was such a success for them oh of course yeah huge brilliant podcast I absolutely loved it and Irish as well um yeah so we should probably tell the listeners what your audiobook is about it's about the vanishing triangle a lot of people call it refer refer to it as the Dublin vanishing triangle is that something you agree with or do you keep it with the well it is it is

around Dublin yeah I've never heard it called that specifically but um yeah so it is a sort of trying a rough triangle around Dublin yeah uh in which this sort of vague triangle shape eight women went missing in Ireland between 1993 and 1998 yeah at least at least eight yeah how how many do you possibly think there are well I found quite a lot of other cases that maybe weren't quite in the same area but we're talking about Ireland it's a very small country so it would take no more than a few hours really to get to these other places so I would be so wary of restricting it necessarily just to this this sort of triangle because it's a bit arbitrary and there were also quite a lot of murders right before during the same time of women that I thought

potentially might be connected so actually the Westcourt case was actually also in this time it was in 96 I believe um although almost certainly not connected but just goes to show there was a lot of things happening at the time absolutely and we've obviously touched very briefly there about what uh the the audiobook is about but claire could you give us and everyone else listening at home just a very quick breakdown we obviously don't want to give away any spoilers or give away too much about it but if you could give us just a quick breakdown or a run-through of um the vanishing triangle your new audiobook uh tell us a bit about it and why people should go listen to it it looks at those those cases as you say the women that went missing over that period

of five years at least eight women from a relatively small area around dublin um but it goes a little bit further as well and also looks at some cases of some murders that happened in the same area um a few years before so I go back to night I go back to 1979 because there was a murder then of a woman in the same area that I thought was possibly connected um and then I look at some other cases as well in other parts of Ireland that possibly might be involved involved but I've looked at it sort of quite thematically so I knew I wouldn't be able to solve the case because they're not it's not they're not murderers as they are in in serial or West Cork where we have a suspect and lots of evidence there's no evidence at all none of the women have ever been found so very little to work

with so instead what I tried to do was kind of examine possibly why these might have happened and these disappearances and also why are they still unsolved well these years later why is there absolutely no evidence and no leads yeah and so I look at things like yeah so the political situation in Ireland just that police not having the technology they do nowadays like DNA and CCTV and things like that. There's lots of other causes I just kind of it's a little bit of a snapshot of what Alan was like during that that key period of the mid-90s when it was going through massive amounts of change. Absolutely and it kind of like you said it's very very difficult because it's not an isolated case it's not even a series of murders

that have occurred that you can try and link the evidence together or anything like that it reminds me a bit of a case that we did on red-handed um gosh a few weeks ago now which was on the vanishing women of Juarez in Mexico so just the hundreds thousands no one even knows how many really women have gone missing and I think the difficulty that all of the journalists who've tried to approach that case is similar to what you describe with this story of um there's just not enough evidence there's not enough leads there's not enough um to grasp and pull these together but uh something that we obviously should be talking about because something is happening yeah unless you find a body there's really very little that you can do. People could be, potentially could be still alive,

although it seems very unlikely in these cases. And you're not new to this game. You're a fairly prolific author under your own name and also your pen name, Eve Woods. How do you choose a pen name? I've always wondered that. Yeah, everyone always asks me that. It was actually my great-grandmother's name. She was Irish.

It's really not a very Irish name at all but she was Irish um I just when I was doing I had to do my family tree in primary school once and I thought it was a really lovely name and I thought I think I thought at the time all the authors had pen names and I thought well that would be my pen name um and then of course I ended up using my own name to start with and then but when I had to have a pen name that was well it is a lovely name you're right so yeah there's no one else in the family called that or anything so it's unusual and this is your first work of non-fiction is that right yeah that's right so what was it about the vanishing triangle in particular that you were

like this one is my first non-fiction work well as I say like the opportunity to write it just kind of came up I didn't it wasn't something I particularly sought out to do but when I was asked do you are there any unsolved crimes that you can think of and that was the first one that came to mind just because um when I heard about it it really kind of shocked me that there were so many cases and no one really knows about it I think outside of Ireland it's not hardly known at all um but just that it was still unsolved as well and it was kind of this like this suggestion that maybe there was a serial killer in Ireland and nobody had even really noticed that was quite shocking absolutely and like we said at the start we don't want to sort of pigeonhole it to being

only eight women because it could have been far more than that we don't know but roughly I guess we would say between 93 and 98 um at least eight women seem to have gone missing um well yeah what I discovered um was like I do go into in the book is that probably um three or four of those if you delve into it there it seems like they actually were killed by people they knew wow okay to me that was an interesting story as well it was like well why are we so keen to believe oh my god serial killer when if you look at it it's more the causes are kind of closer to home and less sensationalist it's things like domestic violence and why was it not possible to convict so whilst i do believe there was someone out there as well that was abducting women i don't necessarily believe all these women were victims of that person yeah i think that's a really interesting point to make because i think it's something we come across in the world of true crime quite a lot is that um we're all very scared of stranger

danger the serial killer that's going to jump out of the bushes and attack us when in reality most women who are killed are most people who are killed are killed in their home by people that they know and I think that there's something so much more scary about that than um the the stranger attack because not only is it incredibly rare but this is people that you know and you're right there is that hesitance to talk about domestic violence and uh familial murder we're we're much more comfortable um as a species as like a community within true crime to talk about people who are just going to be from the other and I wonder if it is that that easier to otherize them isn't it than to talk about I think it's just not as sensational as it is like there's no mystery it's like it's that really obvious person the person that had beat this

woman up before and broken her jaw for example it's them exactly and I noticed that um Women's Day in Ireland had started to catalogue every murder of women from from the kind of the 90s onwards and so then over 80 percent of it was was by people they knew and it was nearly always partners or of course quite often their sons actually which really surprised me as well I think a surprising number of women are killed by their grown-up sons oh my gosh that is horrendous and you're right i think while it's not as sensational it is so horrific and um yeah like i said so much more scary it seems to me um and there's statistics you say i'm not surprised at all that it's by 80 because that's pretty much what you would see generally in the in the murder world um but was there clear

for you because obviously there were at least eight women like you said some of them may have just gone missing some of them may have been murdered by their their partners for example what was it that led you into the vanishing triangle was there a specific case that you first picked up on how did you develop an interest in this so I wrote a series of novels that were set in Ireland and in the present day, or what was then the present day, so about 10 years ago. And in the process of researching that, it was about a missing persons unit. I've always been really fascinated by missing persons just because you don't even know whether it's a crime or not. And you kind of tend to assume, particularly when it's a young woman, they've been abducted, they've been murdered, but that might not be the case. So I suppose that's why I find it more fascinating um and I just came across these cases in the course of research for that and

kind of filed it away I was quite surprised I hadn't heard about it at the time in the 90s because I was definitely very I was in my teens then and I was very tuned into the news because I grew up in Northern Ireland so we all were. You mentioned earlier that the the audio book is sort of a snapshot of Ireland at the time and Irish history is not something that's particularly prevalent in English and Welsh schools I'm sure you're aware of Scottish schools also could you give us a little bit of a rundown in a very short way of the big changes that are happening in the mid 90s in Ireland that are particular that could have hindered the investigation possibly um well just yeah just in terms of social changes so for

a start that I grew up in Northern Ireland um and the troubles were still raging there were quite a few different ceasefires during that time that broke down and leading up to so between 93 98 when the peace process kicked in and we signed the good friday agreement there were a lot of things happened i actually looked it up recently and at one stage there was like every single day someone was being murdered or something something was happening they'd be shooting they'd be bombing every single day so no wonder there wasn't a lot and actually there is still a lot happening in northern ireland even now like somebody just last week um somebody put a bomb under a prison officer's car a woman

prison officer with a small child they tried to firebomb her car luckily it didn't work but it was a viable device so that happens it's still happening and it happened then even more um and then in southern ireland which is um where these cases took place um and i lived on the border so not far from there um so for example i had things like 92 was when they legalised contraception. 93 was when they legalised homosexuality. 97 was when they legalised divorce. So all these things that happened decades, decades before in the rest of the UK, in the UK were only happening then in Ireland.

As you probably know, abortion was only legalized two years ago so um and only only in March in Northern Ireland I believe yeah so I believe last month in Northern Ireland it only started being offered um so in one of the cases for example the women one of the women had had an abortion a few weeks before she disappeared she'd gone to England for it she She'd had no other choice. And the Gardaí, the Irish police force, had leaked that to the media that she'd done this. So they kind of said, well, look, this is what happened to her a few weeks ago. Probably she was depressed.

And her family were saying, no, she wasn't depressed at all. You know, this was just something that happened to her, but she was OK. So it's that kind of thing, I suppose, the societal attitudes that might have affected vehicle, the Space Shuttle. And in 1985, they announced they're sending teacher Krista McAuliffe into space aboard the Space Shuttle Challenger, along with six other astronauts. But less than two minutes after liftoff, the Challenger explodes. And in the tragedy's aftermath, investigators uncover a series of preventable failures by NASA and its contractors that led to the disaster. Follow American Scandal on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. Experience all episodes ad-free and be the first to binge the newest season only on Wondery+.

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of homosexuality, contraception, abortion, divorce. And we're talking about Irish cases, you can't get away from the sort of religious backdrop against which a lot of these crimes unfold. And you mentioned that sort of the societal impacts that may have hindered this investigation. Do you think there was an element, Claire, at the time in Ireland about, you know, maybe sexually motivated murders and attacks don't really happen in Ireland because of the religious backdrop under which these cases may have been unfolding? Do you think that affected the approach that investigators took to it? Yeah, absolutely. And I think it was maybe more that they just didn't think it could happen yeah absolutely and I think um I think it was maybe

more that they just didn't think it could happen in Ireland I think because Ireland is so small and they kind of saw it as a friendly welcoming country where they thought that if there was going to be a murder it would be politically motivated even in southern Ireland um but just as another example like the last I'm sure you've heard of them the maudlin laundries the kind of mother and baby homes that the last one of those closed in 96. So there was one in the town I grew up in. There was one until the late 80s. Wow.

My mum was a doctor. She remembered that she used to have to go and work there occasionally when she first moved to the town. So very recent. But definitely a few of the families said they suggested to the police at the time, could my sister or my daughter have been abducted by a stranger? And the police were very down on that idea. One of them actually did say, no, that doesn't happen here. That's an attitude I've come across quite a lot of like,

there's something about Ireland in like, it just doesn't really happen here type of way and I also think there's a lot of like British colonial guilt of like not um just not acknowledging anything at all uh within the education system yeah yeah I mean it absolutely does I discovered loads of cases where people had been killed by strangers though you know and so yeah yeah it's an interesting it's an interesting narrative to just like to overall believe when it you know, the facts are there, that it does happen, and it is true, but there is this belief, which seems quite bizarre. So you mentioned earlier, earlier on, that people were quick to sort of jump to a serial killer. Do you think there's any indication at all that even a few of the disappearances could be linked to a singular person or do you think they're separate I think

they are yeah I don't think there's that there's no evidence unfortunately but if you look at the way some of them disappeared um so one one of the women for example she was only 18 she was a student who'd gone home for the summer and she was walking home from town in the middle of the day so it's about three o'clock in the summer so it was obviously bright um quite a few people saw her along the road and somebody saw her pretty much at her gate her the gate of her house and she disappeared um so what else could have happened to her except that someone drove up and pulled her into the car sure and there were a few other women that disappeared either while sort of traveling home at night

or walking along the road alone and things like that. In all of the stories that you've collected to make the audiobook, is there one woman in particular, one story that you've really identified with? I suppose that one because it was so baffling that she went missing so close to her house in the middle of the day.

And also she was quite similar in age to me um so that would have been in 98 she was 18 I was 16 um and then there was another case of a girl who was just 17 um when she went missing and that was really close to where I grew up it was just the other side of the border and we would have gone to some of the same discos and things that girl and I and she she was 17 I would have been 15 at that point um but I never heard that she'd gone missing never heard anything about it at the time gosh and it sounds like you're so close to some of these cases I mean just literally the fact that you maybe would have been in the same age bracket growing up near some of these victims was there how did

you go about doing the research because one thing Hannah and I do obviously on the show every week we we do the research for the show but we do it all very much through secondary sources we've never said that you know we're not investigative podcast we are a storytelling podcast but how did you go about doing the research for this were you like boots on the ground were you talking to people who've been involved in this how did that look what did that look like yeah so a bit of both so I don't have any kind of investigative or journalistic background either so I didn't really feel comfortable kind of ringing up the families um and in many cases um the family the fact the parents of the person have passed away sadly um were the main family member who kind of took on

the investigation has passed away um so it's mostly archival I did a lot of research in the papers at the time I did speak to some of the detectives that were involved as well um so a little bit of both I suppose and then I did some kind of background research talking to different organizations absolutely and one of the things that we often get when we speak to people on this show who have, you know, made documentaries or made films or written books about a specific case in particular, there's often this kind of unifying thread of people saying there was this point at which I felt like I was in too deep. There was a point where I felt scared or I had a particularly unsettling experience with somebody I was speaking to. Was there such a point, Claire, for you that just maybe just sent a bit of a tingle up your spine that maybe made the hairs on the back of your neck stand up? Was there anything like that that happened? I think it was when there was a

kind of chief suspect in some of the cases who you can very easily find is quite openly talked about, but obviously there's absolutely no proof whatsoever and this person has always denied any involvement um but certainly has a history of violence and attempted murder um when i found out that that person this man lives in london now so he um he went to prison for a while for another crime for rape and he got out after 10 years um because at the time Ireland didn't have a sex offenders register so he didn't have to sign anything so he's free to live wherever he wants he's lived in Europe but now he lives in London um so I guess that was kind of playing in my mind a little bit because I live in London and I live on my own and around about the same time the book

was about to come out we had the Sarah Everard case in London which was just had so many parallels with the stories in the book that I found that quite chilling and very sad that the same kind of things were being said about her like why did she walk home at night and so on which is really depressing because people were saying that about the women in my stories even though in some cases that was the middle of the day and that was you know that's almost entirely depressing yeah that's almost 30 years ago and people are still saying the same things now yeah yeah I think uh that's one of the things whether we're dealing with cases that are historical whether we're talking about 70s

80s or whether we're talking about the case of Sarah Everard on the show um the narrative that people like to throw at these cases hasn't changed yeah and I think people just like to think well oh my god that happened to her could that happen to me um oh no she must have done something that put herself in danger therefore I would never do that therefore I'll be okay and unfortunately it just doesn't work that way as we've seen most women that are murdered are murdered by people in their own homes exactly exactly wow that is terrifying. And especially the bit about the man living in London now. I assume you talk about him in the book. And that's why you were scared. Yeah. Is it Harry Murphy? Yeah. So yeah, I'm always a bit worried about like naming him because there's no proof that he's connected to any of these people. We did, in the time when we could do live shows, we had people come over from Ireland to our London show

and they specifically were talking, we did like a Q&A and they were like, are you guys going to do Larry Murphy? Yeah. And so I think... Yeah, he was convicted. He was caught basically murdering a woman in 2000, early 2001. And he'd taken her off the street. He took her from a car park about six o'clock in the in 2000 early 2001 um and he'd taken her off the street he she was he took her from a car park about six o'clock in the evening and just sort of really like lightning fast attack got her

into his car in less than a minute drove off and raped her multiple times took up to the woods which is took her into the exact same area that these disappearances took place up into the mountains and then he was put a bag over her head and he was strangling her when he was interrupted so that's all proven he was convicted of all of that but he got out in 2010 so and there is always I feel do you have you found like especially with um the vanishing triangle specifically there being so many different cases of so many different women in so many different circumstances but because everybody knows about Larry Murphy they're like oh it must have been him and that takes the heat off literally everybody else. The thing is I actually found there were quite a few suspects so there was another man who the murderer I mentioned in 1979 and that wasn't solved for 20

years and it was only solved because at the time this really prescient guarder um so police police officer he took kept the blood sample from this man so they had interviewed him he was a suspect he had an alibi um and at the time there was no facility for doing anything more than just a blood test um so this this guard just locked it away for 20 years and when dna became available in the mid 90s wasn't available in ireland for a long time after that they had to send the samples to England and there wasn't the budget there was a whole argument over the budget so it almost didn't get done and when they sent the samples it was very obviously this man um and it turned out the person that had given him an alibi had lied for him and so he he definitely murdered that woman in 79 he was free for 20 years you know what are the chances that he never did anything after that yeah like slim to absolutely absolutely zero so that is terrifying um I think we on this show

absolutely applaud anybody who goes into the world of like writing journalistically about one specific case it's not something we've ever done on the show it's something we'd love to do so full respect to you for that Claire and I know that this is a case that interests a lot of our audience um I don't know if Hannah actually mentions before I joined uh the call today but we have um like such a strong Irish following it's amazing and it's it's just really really nice to see I think the last time we looked at our numbers we have the same number of people listening in Dublin as we do in London which is crazy considering the population difference I've spoken to a few documentary companies since the book came out who are trying to work on programs

about these cases so I think we'll probably see a lot more about it now not necessarily because of my book but I think there's sort of a growing interest in it um it's always been quite well known in Ireland and I was gonna say I didn't know about them in the 90s at all wow that is remarkable possibly because we grew up in Northern Ireland but it was really not very far at all so the town that girl I mentioned before that disappeared from the nearby town that's like 20 miles from where I grew up so wow and to not have heard about that that is um unbelievable and yeah the reason I said we have so many uh Irish rollers because we have had so many requests to cover this on okay but we just we just couldn't make it happen because we have had so many requests to cover this on okay handed but we just

we just couldn't make it happen because we're like in an hour-long episode we can't because there are so many cases there are too many suspects so many names yeah so many names I had sort of actually take a few cases out of the book in the edits just because it was just so many different absolutely disappearances and so on so I think that's probably the biggest difference between what is achievable on a podcast versus what is achievable on an audiobook so guys we're so sorry to everybody who's ever requested us to cover the vanishing triangle it's just too difficult but Claire has done it for us so if you are interested in the vanishing triangle which you absolutely should be um go check out uh Claireowan's book, The Vanishing Triangle,

which is an original Audible exclusive. So you can go check it out there and listen to the whole thing. And we'll leave some links below and stuff for it. But guys, this is the internet, you know how to find it. So yeah, anything else, Claire, you would like to tell the lovely people

who listen to Run Handed? Yeah, I suppose just to bear in mind that these things are quite rare even though as I said they were not as rare as I thought they were in Ireland but not by a long talk but I would never because I live in London I have done for years and I never never feel unsafe here um and I really would not want to start so I just do my best to remind myself that you know it's very unlikely what an important message to end on exactly and have and now you've hopped from book book to audiobook what's next for Claire McGowan what

have you got in the pipeline um so still working on my thrillers um I have another one coming out in October and I actually a friend there's complete sort of pivots my friend and I wrote a kind of parody of Pride and Prejudice on social media, which we have sold as a book. And that's going to be coming out later in the year as well. So also, I guess it's not nonfiction, but it's very, very fun to write. It's very good palette cleanser after this one. Yeah, we're very familiar with those brain scrubbing steel wool moments. Definitely. And actually actually I know sorry before

before we let you go I'm just really interested would you um I know you obviously said palate cleanser after this world of true crime and non-fiction first bag at it would you do again would you do another true crime book yeah it was huge amounts of work um probably just because I was a bit um unsure of what I was doing and had a lot of imposter syndrome i would love to maybe team up with someone so maybe someone that does like to do investigative work um and because that's not really my thing i'm more the kind of writing and the thinking and the structuring sure so that could be really interesting but yeah definitely love to write some more non-fiction in general perfect well we will stay tuned for all of that and you guys should too i also just saw the

vanishing triangle is over five and a half hours long that's why we can't do it that's why Claire's done it go listen to that and uh thank you again Claire so much for taking time to us lovely thank you so much thank you so much all right so um yeah everybody this is just another one of our red-handed interview series we'll keep you uh we may have a very interesting one coming up soon, but we're not going to spoil it yet because we don't know what's happening with it. Stay tuned for more of these

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