RedHanded - Robert Wone - Forensics, Fetishes and Fluids: Part Two | #425

Episode Date: November 13, 2025

In our final episode on the murder of Robert Wone, we examine the most shocking autopsy we’ve ever come across. Complete with what they found on and inside Robert…Which together with the nightmarish sex toys discovered in the DC townhouse, painted a new and even more bizarre picture of what took place just before Robert’s death.And it’s time to lay out what we really think happened that night.Exclusive bonus content:Wondery - Ad-free & ShortHandPatreon - Ad-free & Bonus EpisodesFollow us on social media:YouTubeTikTokInstagramVisit our website:WebsiteSources available on redhandedpodcast.comSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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I'm Hannah. And welcome to Red Handed. And welcome back to part two of the murder of Robert 1. Lots of stuff going on today. So I hope you've all had your creatine. You're ready to go. Why would I have that? Oh, I have her.

Why? Apparently it makes you more mentally agile. And it's good to prevent mental decline. Helps build cognitive function. It's too late for me. And it's good for... Save yourself. And it's a good like post-gym thing.

Like... Obviously, I don't need protein shakes, and actually they're really bad for you. But creatine is good for, like, supporting your muscles, basically, which as women, we should do more of. Especially if you're going to be like, maybe I'll try, have a baby, apparently. So I've been having creatine. It's fine. One little scoop. Put it in you.

Put it in your drink. Chug it back. It's all good. I do feel sharper, but I don't know if it's a placebo. Do you what else is good for that? Speed? I mean, quite. So yes, whether you've got your speed, whether you've got your speed, whether you've got

your creatine, whatever you've got. Let's get into it. And we're going to start this week with the autopsy. Thank God. Okay. It was carried out on the 3rd of August 2006 by an experienced medical examiner with a name I had to practice multiple a time, Dr. Lois Goslinoski. Ooh. Very hard. Sibbolent. Very hard for a person like me who also has a very like plosive mouth, as I've been told. And yes, this autopsy is very, very, very strange. Dr. Goslynowski found that Robert had been stabbed three times,

twice in the chest and once in the abdomen, with the knife piercing him in the heart, the right lung, and the pancreas. And these stab wounds, she describes them as slit-like, so basically saying that they're very clean, very precise incisions, and there are no hesitation marks. It's important to note that this wasn't like a frenzied attack, right? It was calm, clean. Almost in my opinion. Like the person who did it knew that Robert wouldn't fight back. Does that sound like an intruder? Probs not. No. Now one of the wounds to Robert's

chest was about 7 to 8 inches long and the other two was 16 inches long. But they were all pretty much the same depth at about 4 or 5 inches deep. Now we are going to come back to the positioning of these wounds later. Because I really think that the positioning of the wounds is a very, very important part of this case that I have barely seen spoken about anywhere else. I'm not saying we figured this out. There are people talking about this. And if you read the autopsy report, it is there in black and white. They don't even mention it in the documentary. And it blew my mind when I read the autopsy report because I was like, how did they just completely skirt over that.

But we won't. So stay tuned. First though, we're going to talk about the zero defensive wounds that Robert had on his body not a single saucyce. There was also no blood whatsoever

on his hands. Which, given that he was stabbed three times, is remarkable. Even if he'd been asleep, the first stabbing would have woken him up. He would have fought back, grabbed at the knife, got slashes on his hands and his arms. And even if the first stab wound was the one that punctured his aorta,

likely leading to a quick death, we're still talking a few seconds. Plenty of time for Robert's hand to come into contact with some blood that's coming out of the highest pressure, like vessel in your body. But there's nothing. Whoever did this may have washed the blood off Robert's hands to get rid of evidence, although it does seem unlikely. when we get on to what else they found on and in Robert's body.

But the wounds still show us definitively that Robert didn't move during the attack. So what happened? Well, there were no ligature marks found to Robert's body to indicate that he was tied down. So that leaves us with only three real possibilities. Robert wanted to be stabbed, which I can barely say with a straight face

two he was incapacitated when he was stabbed or three he was already dead when he was stabbed the first one which as I said I don't buy at all but let's go with it is that this was some sort of extreme BDSM I want you to stab me Unic maker level of madness gone wrong like Robert consented to being cut but whoever did it took it too far

and Robert ended up dead The classic sex game gone wrong scenario. But even if you were like, yeah, stab me, I love it, your body is going to move. No matter how into it you are, your body is going to be like, what the fuck? I just don't imagine a way in which it's plausible that somebody can have that level of control over themselves. Even in the unit maker, we saw the minute it starts happening, a lot of people were like, no, I don't even want this to happen anymore. And the wounds indicate that Robert's body never moved or resisted the three stab wounds.

And also, for this to be the case, right, that Robert wanted it to happen. This situation would also mean that happily married Robert was not only secretly gay, but also massively into pretty extreme sexual fetishes, and only at the house that night for some sort of sexy hookup. which is a big talking point around this case which we will come on to obviously and we will discuss but personally it's not one that rings true and that's because

the police dug into every corner of Robert's life after he was killed they had his phones his laptop his computer his bank statements literally everything and they never found a hint of Robert leading a secret gay double life certainly not a kinktastic one If he was married to his wife, Kathy, as a cover-up,

you'd at least expect some gay porn to be kicking about. But there was nothing. I just, so many people on Reddit talk about this case, and they're like, it was a gay orgy. Gay orgy, went wrong, they stabbed him, something happened, drug overdose, they stabbed him to cover it up, blah, blah, blah. We're going to get into all that. But, like, the fact that, if you die under these circumstances, the police are going to take your life apart, and they find nothing.

I Robert didn't know he was going to die. why would he cover it up? And even if you cover it up, the police will find it. There's nothing. I just think it's too big a leap. Of course people lead secret gay double lives. But I just don't think Robert was one of them. I agree.

Like I think, you know, these things do happen. Of course, everything happens. Everything you can imagine happens. But like, I just don't believe... Where's the evidence? There would be something. Yeah. Whatever happened to Robert, I don't think he consented to.

it. And even if we ignore the could he have been secretly gay or by or whatever or not question, look at his behaviour right before he was killed. He went to his room. He showered. He put his mouth guard in and then wrote a couple of emails. The mouthguard is the killer for me. Me too. That was, that was my turning point. I was like, all right. You got me. I absolutely not. No gay porn and the mouthguard. I'm sorry. This was not that for Robert. yes yes he's there because he's like you know I've left my wife Kathy for the night I've come here because I need this I'll just put my mouth garden and let me send a couple of quick emails fuck off it's just illogical yeah and look before everybody's like I have sex

with my mouth garden maybe if you're in a relationship and it's like you know 10 years down the line and you're like just roll over and have a quick it's a bit different to going over for a secret sordid affair that you're having surely right so it just doesn't it It doesn't. It's a non-starter for me, to be honest with you. And, like, people do illogical things all the time. Yes. Like, that's, we know that. Mm-hmm.

I'd be worried if we didn't after doing this for 100,000 decades. But, like, I just don't buy it. No. And as for the sleepover itself, because this is what makes a lot of people question Robert sexuality. And I find it funny because a lot of people are like, well, what was he doing at that house with those gay men? He must have been having a sex orgy. And I'm like, no. he's just friends with them.

Yeah, that's like allowed. He's just a straight man who happens to be friends with these gay men. Like, shocking. I mean, yes, the fact that he's murdered and there is a sexual element to it, I understand why then people are questioning his sexuality. But I really don't think that's at the heart of this. So why was Robert there? Let's talk about that, because this is a big point of contention in this case.

Well, a couple of weeks before his death, Robert realized that he was going to need to work late to meet with the night team of Radio Free Asia on the evening of the 2nd of August 2006. So he decided to reach out to a couple of friends in D.C. to see if he could spend the night because Robert, who used to live in D.C., had moved to Virginia to a place called Oakton, which I believe is like a suburb. And it's not miles and miles away. It's like a commuter, it's like commutable into D.C. But he basically had messaged a couple of friends saying, hey, I've got to work late that night. Can I sleep over? And Joe was just the first person who got

back to him. In a lot of places, Robert's staying over at 1509 Swan Street is either painted as this hugely planned out Wednesday night sex fest or as a spur of the moment idea. Like he just picked up the phone at 10 and was like, hey, Joe, can I come over? Neither of those things I think are true. I know that the spur of the moment thing is definitely not true. I also don't believe it was a sex fest. And it also wasn't a secret.

Robert's wife Kathy actually reminded him that morning that he was going to stay at Joe's that night. Some people question why Robert bothered to stay in D.C. that night at all. He lived in Oakton, which is commutable, as sir he said. He could have made it home in about 40 minutes by train or taxi. That's reasonable. However, Kathy had just had a hip replacement. Robert was keen not to wake her up by coming home late or getting up early the next. morning. Also, Joe and Robert were apparently planning a breakfast meeting the next day

to discuss a potential joint business idea. So it just made sense for Robert to stay over. That's the only bit of this whole thing that makes sense. Yep. So we can set aside theory number one, I believe. But what about possibilities two and three that Robert was somehow incapacitated or that he was already dead when he was stabbed? Now, if we go with Dr. Goslin, Oslo, According to her, Robert was definitely not dead when he was stabbed. Dr. Goslenowski noted in her report that there was blood found in Robert's small intestine and that this blood, according to her, was partially digested. So she comes to the conclusion that Robert must have been alive for, quote,

a significant amount of time after he was stabbed, so definitely not dead before. But this, with regard specifically to the amount of time that Robert lived after the stab wounds were inflicted, has been heavily challenged by other medical examiners. Basically, the challenge that they make is saying that the wounds that Robert sustained would have been fatal within minutes, if not seconds. And he definitely would have been unconscious within seconds. So while Robert may have been alive before he was stabbed, there was no way, according to these other medical professionals,

that he could have lived long enough for his body to digest any. anything. And while we don't know the order in which the wounds were inflicted, like whether the aortic injury was first or last, we can say that the stab wounds happened in close succession. And the fact that the aortic injury happened at all means he would have been dead within minutes. So his body couldn't have been long enough for him to digest anything. So Dr. Goslenoski must be wrong. He didn't live long enough for that to be possible. And the counterclaim is that the stab wound to Robert's abdomen pierced his small intestine

and basically there's internal bleeding into his small intestine and that's what Dr. Goslenowski looks at and says there's blood in his small intestine that's been partially digested. Basically they're saying that the blood hadn't traveled down through Robert's mouth through his digestive tract

and ended up in his small intestine which is how Dr. Goslenoski states it because yes for that to occur it would have indeed taken a long time for Robert to still be alive for that to happen but there's literally no way he could have been alive for the like upwards of 40 minutes to maybe an hour that would have taken to occur

because we know he had an aortic injury. So there's something wrong in Dr. Goslynowski's report. So if we take the challenge to Dr. Goslenoski's findings seriously, then Robert could have been dead or alive when he was stabbed. We can't be sure either way because the reason she says she's sure he's sure he's. was alive is because she says there was partially digested blood. But other medical examiners saying that's not true because it's impossible. So then we're back at the position where we don't

know for sure if Robert was dead or alive when he was stabbed. But you'd like to think that a doctor would know the difference between internal bleeding and partially digested. I really don't know how she makes that mistake. But the facts for me are I would always lean towards the medical examiner who actually did the autopsy. But the fact for me that is irrefutable, is he Yes, Robert did have an aortic injury. So we know that that kills within minutes and you can't be digesting blood within minutes. And she's saying there was two foot of small intestine that was filled with blood. So it's not like he got punched in the face, which also there's no evidence of because he has no facial injuries,

or somehow swallowed some blood that was digested and then she's later confusing it with this. Two foot of small intestine being filled with blood. That's a lot of blood. I don't understand why she can't tell if it's partially digested or not. But the fact that he has the aortic injury makes me believe he died within minutes, which is not long enough for blood to have got to the small intestine and become partially digested. So it is confusing, but I think the aortic injury is the thing that clinches it for me. So then if we say we can't be sure if Robert was dead or alive, let's go with the idea for now that he was dead, right?

Let's go with the idea that Robert was already dead when he was stabbed, and that's why he doesn't resist the stabs. That's why there are no defensive wounds. That's why there's no reaction. Then what killed him? Well, that isn't clear. There is some suggestion in the autopsy, and I really don't want to overblow this because a lot of people have overblown this,

there is some suggestion in the autopsy of possible suffocation. Goslynowski found some particular hemorrhaging in Robert's eyes, and a lot of people have run away with that saying well it's simple. They suffocated him he was either dead or nearly dead and then they stabbed him and that's why there isn't a lot of blood at the scene because his heart rate had either stopped or really, really slowed down.

My issue with the particular hemorrhaging is that it is such a tiny amount. I've got one now. She literally says it's a singular point of particular hemorrhage. It's not really the amount you would expect to see if someone had been suffocated. And also in cases where people are suffocated

They fight back. And you typically will find some form of bruising to the face if they were alive when that happens. There's nothing like that on Robert. And there's no fibres in his nose, in his airways, again, things you would expect to find if suffocation had taken place. So that takes us back to the question, why didn't Robert move? According to the police, he was paralysed. In the official affidavit, investigators stated that they believed a paralytic agent had been used on him. The problem is that toxicology reports found no evidence of any nefarious substances

in Robert's blood or urine, not even alcohol. Again, a sober gay orgy. There are problems there. Firstly, they didn't actually test the paralytics. Ketamin wasn't even tested for. Yeah, and I have heard, I can't confirm this, but I have heard that Dylan Wood's username on some BDSM websites was Call You Ket. You know those creepy stories that give you goosebumps, the ones that make you really question what's real? Well, what if I told you that some of the strangest, darkest, and most mysterious stories are not found in haunted houses or abandoned forests, but instead in hospital rooms and doctor's offices? Hi, I'm Mr. Ballin, the host of Mr. Ballin's medical mysteries.

And each week on my podcast, you can expect to hear stories about bizarre illnesses no one can explain, miraculous recoveries that shouldn't have happened, and cases so baffling, they stumped even the best doctors. So if you crave totally true and thoroughly twisted horror stories and mysteries, Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries should be your new go-to weekly show. Listen to Mr. Ballin's medical mysteries on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen early and ad-free right now by joining Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Spotify or Apple Podcasts. Norval Morso is one of the most famous indigenous artists ever. Looking at his paintings, it's easy to see why.

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Forged. Available now. Available now, wherever you get your podcasts. Secondly, even if they had testifocetamine, the problem is that ketamine and a lot of drugs like it have a very short half-life. So if the drug isn't detected within the first 24 hours, it might be impossible to detect it at all. And they didn't do it as a standard search. But police aren't deterred by the fact that they find none of these things in Robert's body. They point to another finding from the autopsy to back up their paralytic theory. Robert had multiple puncture marks to his body like needle puncture marks.

And he was not an intravenous drug user. There were two to his chest, one on the left hand side of his neck, one on the inside of his arm, one on the back of his left hand, and one on the front of his right ankle. Some of these puncture marks, we know, were caused by the paramedics who were trying to carry out life-saving procedures on Robert in the ambulance, or Robert's body, probably by that point. They were trying to place IVs in him, they were trying to give him injections,

and they said we tried in multiple different spots. But a couple of the marks were in places that the EMT workers denied interfering with. And yeah, look, the puncture mark to his ankle definitely seems very odd but I can also imagine a situation in which you're working on a patient in a moving ambulance things might be a bit crazy. Can they say for sure? Yes, some of these puncture marks were definitely us and maybe one or two were definitely weren't and were the work of some mystery killer.

Hmm, I don't know. Does it make sense? all we know is that Robert had to either be dead because Dr. Goslynowski might be wrong about the digested blood or Robert had to be paralysed or incapacitated. And these options would also explain the lack of blood at the scene. If Robert's heart had totally stopped pumping or its beating was severely reduced due to a drug or him being unconscious from suffocation, there may not be cast or. off or spray or even excessive bleeding.

They are the only options that fit the strangeness of the scene. The fact that Robert doesn't resist the stabbing and the fact that there is so little blood at the scene. Both of these can only be explained, as you said, either he's dead or he's incapacitated and or paralyzed. Or suffocated. But since we can't explain how Robert could have been killed and then stabbed, because suffocation seems hard to nail down

with a tiny amount of patiquial hemorrhering reported, and no other cause of death seems that obvious. Let's go with the police's theory about a paralytic. Are you happy to do that? Because I can't think of another way in which he was killed and there's no cause of death. So we have to then, I feel like, set aside the idea that Robert was dead before he was stabbed. Because there's nothing in the report that could explain how else he could have died. So then for me logically, okay, then we have to look at the idea. Although I don't love it that he was drugged or paralyzed or incapacitated in some other way. Or maybe there's

something that's completely been missed as to his cause of death. But I can't think of what it could be. Yeah, me either. Some people have wondered if Robert could have been drugged orally when he first arrived at the house. We know that he had a glass of water. Was there something in it? Perhaps. Maybe. But whoever did it would have had to know exactly when that drug was going to kick in. And Robert seems to have been fine, showering, putting his mouth guard, in writing his emails. It doesn't really sound like someone who's been roofied. No, and he doesn't, he's not down there that long.

No, and this is, this is exactly the point. Yes, they did all go to bed. Like shortly after Robert got there, he has the drink that, you know, may have been spiked, I don't buy it. But Robert could easily have ended up staying up, chatting. So whoever did it, how would they know that he was going to go to bed? And it would kick in when he was in his bedroom and then you could go in there and do all sorts of things to him.

What if it had kicked in when he was downstairs and he passes out in front of everybody? To take that kind of risk, you would suggest then that they were all in on it. And a public collapse would have been fine. Yes. I don't totally, like, think it's impossible. I don't think it's impossible. I personally don't think Victor was involved. But again, we'll go on to talk about that.

But that's my issue with the, like, oral drugging is that the person who did it would have had to have been safe in the knowledge that either Robert was definitely, you're going to go to bed immediately, or that it didn't matter if anybody else saw him pass out. But why, why wouldn't it matter? For me, I don't really see, I don't see what difference it would make to the killer, whether Robert passed out in his room or downstairs, and then is then transferred back upstairs. For me, it's just if Victor's not in on any plot, and then Robert is still talking to Victor, Victor comes downstairs and they're having a chat because they are friends, despite all the casual friend thing.

And then Robert suddenly passes out, Victor's going to be like, oh my God, we need to call an ambulance. Our friend Robert, who's staying over, has just collapsed. And then your whole plan of whatever you're going to do to Robert has gone out the window. So either they're all in on it, which is the only way that would make sense that Robert was drugged orally or drugged like when he had that drink of water, which is a big like talking point in this. but if you even suspect that one of them isn't in on it, it's a big risk for me to take that you're roofying somebody downstairs when you don't know for sure that Robert's going to go to bed. I see what you're saying.

I just, I think that I don't believe that Dylan and or Joe are scared of Victor at all. No, that's very true. I think that's fine. I think for me, then you look at the evidence of Robert does go to bed and he goes to bed at 1045 or he goes to his room at 1045. He showers, he brushes. his teeth, he gets changed, he puts his mouth guard in, he sits down, he writes emails. That's like between the going to bed and the, or going to his room and the last email

draft is about 25 minutes. And I'm like, how long does it take? And there's no like, you know, maybe this could have been staged, but there's no like him stumbling over in his room because he's been roofied, like he's just in bed. So yes, I appreciate there's a lot of things we don't know. But the fact that he seems cognizant enough to write emails, 25 minutes. after being roofied allegedly is what makes me think he wasn't slip

something in that drink. I could buy it. It's not an impossibility. No, I don't think so. And there is also an argument of it's possible that there was a lot of knowledge in that house of how long it takes someone to get knocked out. Quite possibly. What I'm going to take my role is as like pointing holes in everything to be like

what is the thing that makes the most sense. And I don't think that the oral drugging is impossible. these are just my issues with it that then it implies everyone's involved or like you said they literally don't give a shit what Victor thinks and they're willing to do this out in the open completely and also how is he so cognizant nearly half an hour after being allegedly roofied those would be my two like question marks about that particular thing so yes it could have been an absolute possibility but I don't know and the other thing with the drugging if we say the most like drug they would have used because they actually run a test on some things like GHB and it's not found in his system. And if it had been something like Rohypnal, authorities did test for that and didn't find it. It's actually one of the few drugs that can still be tested in your system for five days after. Oh yeah. It's administered. That's why GHB is used a lot more. Exactly. And I think that's why they went back and tested for it. So of course, it could have been some other drug that they've put into

his drink. But the fact that they don't find Rohypnal or GHP is a lot of another thing for me that leads away from the oral drugging because it's so easy, not so easily accessible, but it's a common thing that's used in these scenarios, right? So yeah, that's probably the key thing as to why I don't think it was that. So then the other thing is they don't find any real hypno in the house, but they also don't find any needles or other paralytics or any type of weird nefarious agent in the house either. Regardless, investigators landed on succine as their suspected paralytic. Now it's not entirely obvious to me how they got to this particular chemical drug being the thing that was used. But that was the theory. And again,

succinalcholine is a drug that gets very, very quickly metabolized in the body into naturally occurring compounds. So unless you're testing for it literally immediately, it's very hard to test for. and there's some dispute over how easy it is to get your hands on it's not used that much these days but there are reports from the time that you could just have gone into any hospital and grabbed it off a drug cart but a lot of medical professionals say that that's total shit

and considering how powerful a drug it is and how specific its usage is tend to believe them it's essentially used to immobilise a person but it's only given to people on ventilators because your body can't even breathe for itself after it's administered. So that could explain why Robert didn't respond to the stab wounds if he was given succincticoline. He may have become completely unresponsive and started to suffocate as his lungs stopped. It also can't be administered orally and it kicks in within 60 seconds.

So there's no chance that it was given to Robert before. Yeah. So if it was succulentoline, again, there's no evidence of that. Like I said, it's within a minute it's working and you're, you know, you're gone. So it's got to have been done in his room. Or, you know, some people are like he was killed elsewhere. There's like a million different places you can go with this. But it had to be done right before, is what I'm saying. So, yeah, because I've been on Reddit. I've seen lots of nurses and doctors being like absolute bullshit people saying you can just go in and grab it off a drug cart. Like it's only used in the eye. ICU for people who are on ventilators, it's not just like in common, like, it's not like fucking paracetamol or even like a hardcore painkiller, which might be found more easily in a hospital. So if they didn't steal it from a hospital, how else could these guys have got their hands on it? Or the killer got their hands on it. Enter the next theory.

The killer was Joe's brother, Michael, the one that we briefly mentioned last week as having had a key to the house. Michael is described as the black sheep of the family. Joe is very clean cut. He's a successful lawyer. He's got his shit together on the outside anyway. This is in sharp contrast to his brother Michael, who had always struggled with drug addiction. And he was now supposedly at this point,

so in 2006, supposedly sorting his life out. He had enrolled in night school to study to become a phlebotomist. And so the theory was, this is how he had got hold of the succinal car. But it feels like a bit of a stretch to me. Phlebotomists don't even use succinctalcholine as part of their role. Like, it's not specific to them. Like, he's just sometimes in a hospital because he's training to be a phlebotomist.

I'm not convinced I know what that word means. Oh, it's like the people that draw blood. That has a name? Crazy. Yeah. I'm sure they do lots more things before everyone is a phlebotomist. It's like, that's not all we do. But it's blood, right?

Blood stuff. Okay. Now, regardless, the theory is, this is the theory of the police hunt, that Michael fell off the wagon and broke into his rich brother's house to steal some stuff for drug money. Like in the haunting of Hill House. Exactly. But instead... Also in D.C. that scene, I believe.

I think D.C. is pretty druggie. I'm not going to say anything. I'm protecting my peace. Yeah, I think the people of D.C. no, unfortunately. So the theory is that he broke into Joe's house to steal some stuff to sell for drugs. But instead of, you know, just breaking into the house and then stealing all the very expensive tech equipment that is on the first floor of the house, for some reason he grabs a knife, goes upstairs and murders the house guest. And the theory is that Joe knew it was Michael who did it. And obviously Michael is his brother and that's why he covered it up with this bullshit intruder theory.

And Michael did, in fact, break into Joe's house a few weeks after the murder. and he had probably done it before but the main evidence to support this theory seems to be that Michael missed his phlebotomy class the night of the murder and it was the only night all year that he hadn't turned up which is notable a coincidence

but you know hardly a smoking gun especially when you consider that there's no evidence putting him at the scene at all in fact his phone was tracked and placed him nowhere near 1509 Swan Street that night he could have just left it behind but his partner also vouched for him that night some point to the fact that Michael had an angry outburst

at the police at Robert's funeral screaming at them that they should be out there looking for the real killers instead of harassing his brother though I don't really understand how that makes him look guilty I think they're just like oh he has an anger problem I'm like okay yeah I don't I'm not running with the Michael theory to be honest

I think at best he was used by police to say that they looked at the possibility of other culprits and as a way to try and explain paralytic connection but again there's no hard evidence that Robert was drugged certainly not with something like succulentoline Yeah it's funny when you watch the documentary and Joe Price's lawyer is in it quite a lot

a man named Bernard Grimm who has since been disbarred by the way in the documentary he's very very expensive like top shot lawyer, obviously that Joe Price got for himself. But in it, it's so funny because he's like, the police have looked at nobody but these three men. They have looked at nobody. They've disregarded the intruder theory completely.

They've been completely blinkered from the start. And then when it's put to them about the Michael theory, and that's why Joe covers it up, he's like, oh, well, who is it now? Who else? Who else did it now? I'm like, so which is it? Is it that you're like, they're just pointing the finger at everybody or that they're only pointing the finger at Joe?

It's just the twisting is, oh, It's something. It's something else, honestly. And it worked. Oh, yeah. So yes. No evidence. It was Michael. No evidence that it was succinolcholine. Though, of course, as we said, succulentoline is very, very, very hard to test for if it's not done immediately. So, of course, the absence of evidence isn't the evidence of absence. And as we mentioned, if he had been drugged with something like that, it would explain the total lack of blood at the scene.

But I know that not everyone buys that there is a lack of blood at the scene because Robert was either dead or incapacitated. Many people believe in this case that there was a huge clean-up at the scene. And I think this is due in large part to the police's massive fuck-up here with a chemical called Ashley's reagent. I also accept that it's because there was a man who stabbed three times and there's no blood at the scene, which immediately obviously makes people suspicious,

but this whole controversy with this chemical makes things ten times worse. But I really don't think it's as important as it's made out to be. Hear me out. The police basically mess up catastrophically because they use this thing called Ashley's reagent to test for blood at the house. But it isn't the right chemical

to use when testing for blood in cases like this. I really try to understand. Like, obviously we've all heard of luminal. Luminal is the right chemical to use. Why on fucking fuck they used Ashley's reagent? I do not know. I do not understand why they did this. The best I can understand,

and I have listened to a lot of experts talk about this, I've read a lot of things about this. The best I can understand is that it seems that luminal is the best thing to use on hard surfaces. And Ashley's reagent is good. to use on fabrics. That's the best I can understand. But why they sprayed Ashley's Reagent

around that whole fucking house, I don't know, right? And listening to experts talk about it. They also say that Ashley's Reagent is just not very good. It can give false positives. It can give false negatives. It can even, in some cases, destroy blood evidence altogether. So I don't know what the fuck went on here. And in the documentary, they really just skirt over this thing.

they're just like blah blah blah and like they just say that ashley's reagent shouldn't be used on vertical surfaces and that was the biggest mistake they made I was like okay let's look into that still not totally clear but essentially this is why I don't think it's that important right yes they did fuck up with using ashley's reagent but essentially what we need to know is that the police had the house for almost three weeks right and they would have tried various methods to detect blood. They didn't just go in there and start spraying Ashy's Reagent immediately. There are various different ways in which you detect blood

working up to their use of Aschie's reagent. And yet they found no signs of blood anywhere at all on that property. Not one single bit. They even brought in cadaver dogs and these two dogs

did strike in two places. The lint drawer of the dryer like the tumble dryer and also by the drains in the back garden. So maybe there were things that were washed or rinsed. I can totally buy that because I definitely believe that someone in the house did it. I'm not saying they didn't clean anything. But I don't think there was this massive clean up. Think about it.

In the time that they had, Robert sending fucking emails at 1107, they call 911 and then the ambulance is there. The paramedics are there before midnight. There is not a huge amount of time to clean that amount of blood that would be there if Robert had bled as extensively as you would expect someone who'd been stabbed three times who was alive and unparalyzed at the time of being stabbed. To that level of cleanliness that the police found no evidence of blood, when the police also didn't find any cleaning products that would have done that kind of a job at the house, it doesn't make sense.

Blood gets everywhere. Yeah, I don't buy it, but I do really want to know what washing machine they have that's doing it that fast. I mean, wash out of dry and find 20 minutes, you fucking joking. Exactly. Sign me up. Exactly. I'm just like, if they were going to embark on this massive cleanup, why not just wait till morning?

Why not just wait till morning? Clean it all. Even then you're not going to clean it all. You're going to get caught. There's going to be blood in the bloody floorboards or somewhere in the house. It's going to be somewhere. There is just no way. And I think the police want there to have been a clean up because then,

and I want to see why, because it speaks. to there being a conspiracy within the house to cover up the murder. So for the police, they are fully incentivised to say there was a clean-up. And so they blame the Ashley's reagent for why they didn't find any blood.

But that's not the only way you would find blood. They would have found something. And they found nothing. And also, let's say that some people listening to this don't buy the theory that they would have found some blood. Maybe you're like, the police are just so incompetent

they didn't find any blood. Then my next question would be, why bother? Why would the men bother doing a clean-up? Yes, clean yourself, because you're probably covered in blood if you just stabbed a man three times and he's bled everywhere.

But if your cover story was that somebody broke into the house and stabbed Robert to death while he was asleep, why would you, as is alleged, wash all the sheets, clean all the cast off off, clean all the blood spray away, and clean all the blood off the floor? Why? That's what you would expect to see. In fact, the lack of that blood only raises more questions.

So what would be the possible motive for them to clean up the room or clean up the scene of blood and cast off and spray and all sorts of things if their whole point is that somebody broken and did this? Because obviously that person didn't fucking do it. The only thing I can think is like a change of plan. Or, in my opinion, Victor being like, no, fuck you, I'm calling the ambulance. I'm not going down with this. I'm not going down with you what you're doing.

is abhorrent and then the cleanups already happened and then he makes the call yeah and then they have to come up with a different story and they had a different plan well that is i don't know but even that no because the the change of plan would still be somebody else came in and did it and then it'll be like well where's the blood and i think for me it's still the thing of even if they had done the cleanup for whatever reason they're confused they think oh we got to clean it up and then they're like now it doesn't make sense because we're going to say somebody broke in and did it. But it's too late they've already cleaned it. Again, it's the question of they didn't find any, like, bloody mop, they don't find any buckets, they don't find, and like, you can't

just do it with regular cleaning products. Oh, no, I agree. No, no, I know. I'm just literally being like, let's tear this apart before, you know, because I know this is a big talking point in this case. Everyone's like, oh, it's a cleaner. Where's the blood? There's got to be a clean up. I'm like, firstly, how? And secondly, why? Yeah. So yeah, I just, I don't buy it. I don't think there was a clean-up, and I think it comes back to the fact that Robert is either dead or incapacitated in his heart rate is so slow that the blood just doesn't leave his body. Hmm. I'm John Robbins, and on my podcast, I sit down with incredible people to ask the very simple question, how do you cope? From confronting grief and mental health struggles, to finding strength

in failure. Every episode is a raw and honest exploration of what it means to be human. It's not always easy, but it's always real. Whether you're looking for inspiration, comfort, or just a reminder that you're not alone in life's messier moments, join me on How Do You Cope? Follow now wherever you get your podcasts, or listen to episodes early and ad-free on Wondery Plus. How Do You Cope is brought to you by Audible, who make it easy to embark on a wellness journey that fits your life, with thousands of audiobooks, guided meditations, and motivational series. It's all a lighthearted Nightmare on our podcast, Morbid. We're your hosts. I'm Alina Urquhart.

And I'm Ash Kelly. And our show is part true crime, part spooky, and part comedy. The stories we cover are well researched. Of the 880 men who survived the attack, around 400 would eventually find their way to one another and merge into one larger group. With a touch of humor. Shout out to her. Shout out to all my therapist out there's been like eight of them. A dash of sarcasm and just garnished a bit with a little bit of cursing.

That mother f***er is not. And if you're a weirdo like us, I'd love to cozy up to a creepy tail of the paranormal. Or you love to hop in the way back machine and dissect the details of some of history's most notorious crimes. You should tune in to our podcast. Morbid. Follow Morbid on the Wondry app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to episodes early and ad free by joining Wondry Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. There are also accusations that the men were having a big orgy.

a baby pool or a tarpaulin something like that in my limited experience and knowledge of gay orgies quite common i guess i've heard this i've read a lot of lube going on lots of buckets full of things it is reasonably common for it to happen in some sort of like dexter like plastic covered environment because there's a lot of fluid this is what i've read yeah me too and so therefore when robert was stabbed this is what got filled with his blood so he just got washed off and then the happy roommates all washed themselves and then they dumped the pool

or the tarpaulin or the plastic or whatever but there's still no evidence of that and where could they have dumped this bloody paddling pool the police searched all of the nearby bins and all of the alleys and there was nothing and it also wouldn't explain why there was no cast off or spray on the walls or the ceiling

and again just that's so little time 30 minutes for an orgy a murder, a clean-up And an evidence dump seems impossible. Yeah, because this thing, people can be like, oh, well, the police didn't find the baby pool, but that's because they're incompetent. Okay, fine. But I'm like, really 30 minutes for all that to have happened. Yeah.

Where are they dumping it? It just, it just doesn't fit for me. It doesn't fit. Ultimately, I think Robert, as I keep saying, was either already dead or his heart rate had slowed right down before he was stabbed. And maybe the killer or killers even thought that Robert was already dead when they stabbed him, which is why they do it so like carefully and precisely with knowing that he's not going to fight back. The question then, I understand, would be, well, then why bother stabbing him? Well, the obvious one to me is that they knew if Robert wasn't quite dead,

but they knew he was going to die or they were scared about him waking up, that he'd wake up and tell everybody what they had done, or what one of them had done. or what two of them had done but I also think that they have to stab him because if they're going to say that somebody broke in and murdered him or you're going to say somebody broke in and suffocated him

or broke in and gave him a paralytic that made him die someone broke in and stabbed him just makes more sense as a narrative even though it makes no sense at all in this case so maybe if it was Joe Dylan and or Victor they do something to Robert he is unconscious or otherwise incapacitated or something is wrong with him

and maybe they even think he's dead. I figured they thought it would make more sense that someone broke in and stab their house get to death than did something else to him. Now some people ask, well, if they did that, why then not stage the house to look more like there had been an actual breaking? Right. Why not throw some things around, make it look like a struggle? I've seen that comment made a lot on the internet.

And to me, I was like, yeah, you're right. Why wouldn't they do that? Joe's smart man. Why wouldn't you make it look more like it was a struggle? But actually, when you think about it, it's actually super smart that they didn't do this. Because if there was a mess in the house, it creates a much longer time frame for the killer to have been in the house.

And more questions about why the men didn't see or hear anything. And also, if they staged a struggle, then they would have to explain why they did. hear anything or come running sooner, not to mention the bigger risks they'd have to take in staging Robert's body in a manner that would have created more inconsistencies. Because you can't say somebody came and threw a bunch of shit around, made a load of noise, but Robert was still in bed, and then he got stabbed because people are going to get up and be like, what's that noise?

And then if you're saying he wasn't stabbed in bed, then where are you going to position his body? There's going to be more chances for something weird to be picked up upon. So I actually think it's quite smart that they do. didn't stage more of a ruckus. Yeah. But of course it doesn't make sense because then what you're saying is that this random intruder jumped over a bunch of fences, got into your garden, seven foot fences,

got into your garden just so happened to find an unlocked door. Open said unlocked door. Here's the chime go off. It's not even that late. Like, just gone 11, but has no fear. Isn't deterred by the fact that a chime has gone off. They ignore all of this expensive tech that's downstairs because the men, you know, they're well off.

They've got a lot of good stuff in the house. But instead goes to the kitchen, grabs a knife and heads upstairs, doesn't even go into the first bedroom they come across, which would have been Dillens. They go up the stairs, turn the corner, 180 on the hallway, walk into the second bedroom that they would have come across, and randomly just stab the person in there to death. And then just quietly walk out of the house and leave. And also what's really interesting, and we will get onto the positioning of the knife, but this is worth mentioning now. Now, the door to Robert's room, right? They go into Robert's room, but the positioning of the wounds

shows that they couldn't have stabbed Robert from the side of the bed that is next to the door. So they couldn't just walk in through the door, stab him and then walk back out. The way the wounds are positioned means this person walked into the room, walked all the way around the bed to the other side,

cornering themselves in that room, and then stabbed Robert. If we assume he wasn't moved. if we assume he wasn't moved and also if we assume that that even fits with the wounds which it doesn't totally which I'll come on to in a bit

but again you see what I mean it just doesn't make sense I mean I'm confused now and I'm not running through a house trying to murder someone I'm just trying to understand so I don't think I can give

the intruder theory anything and the police couldn't either especially when they found all of the very extreme BDSM stuff in Dillon's room in the days after the murder. They became convinced that this was all sexually motivated. And some people accuse the investigators of being homophobic

or prejudiced against the men for being into kinky sex, whatever. Joe even says this during his interviews. Yeah, he's like, what, just because we like sex, we murdered him? And it's like, no, Joe. Yeah. But like, it's not, like, the police have to follow up on it. They can't just be like, okay, never mind. And like, we're talking some serious, serious stuff that they find in Dillon's room.

And also they find a lot of, like, stuff that is overtly, like, extremely violent. Hmm. And they also found countless homemade pornographic videos on Joe's computers, including on his work computer. Which I just think shows how brazen he is. Yeah. And these videos featured Joe and Dylan. They included everything from medieval torture to extreme humiliation porn.

And, of course, you can say that it's just kink between two consenting adults. But when there's a murder in the house in which they live, you can't really trot that one out, to be honest. No. It is completely relevant. Nobody is saying that a interest in BDSM or kink automatically means you are a violent murderer. No one. So don't bother.

But yes, the police had to follow this. lead. And so the police got Dr. Goslenoski to go back and run a rape kit on Robert's body. And she found that there was no visible signs of forcible rape. So there's no trauma or tearing to Robert's anus or his mouth. But she did find semen on Robert's genitals and also inside his anal cavity. Which in my opinion also nullifies this cleanup story. So what? You're going to wash all the blood off yourself, off the bed sheets, off the room, off the walls, but you're not going to wash Robert well enough to get the semen off his, like, body? Yeah. So no.

But anyway, when the police hear the news that there is semen inside Robert's body, they were like, bingo. Whoever semen that is has to be the killer. But in the case that just won't stop twisting and turning, when the result, came back, it was something no one was expecting. Because the seaman on and inside Robert was his own.

Now the police were completely baffled. Robert wasn't raped as far as they could see insofar as like some form of penetration. But he did, as far as they could also see from the autopsy results, ejaculate shortly before he died. Now Joe's lawyer, Bernard Grimm, who we mentioned earlier, theorised that Robert must have just masturbated

and there's no sexual motivation at all to this crime. Which like, okay, but let's play that out, right? So Robert comes over to sit at his friend's house. He showers, puts his mouth card in, writes him emails and then suddenly, without even sending those emails, stops to masturbate. And then puts his own semen inside of himself.

And then gets murdered by a mystery intruder, all completely unrelatedly. It's a no for me. half of it I can see honestly men are gross like I don't think there's like I could absolutely believe that men wank at other people's houses

100% even the seaman thing I'm like I don't know maybe it was a weird thing I don't know but just so happens to get murdered immediately after I don't think I can stand behind that to be honest in a house full of other men come on like be fucking for real it's just

ridiculous and the police went into an absolute tailspin. They were like, who's Occam's Razor? What's that? We don't know her. They look for the most

outlandish reasons to explain this rather than, in my opinion, just keeping it simple. They desperately started to look for sex toys in the house that could explain how Robert could have been forced to ejaculate and then had his own seaman put inside of him. and they went off on the wild goose chase and came up with nothing, none of the sex toys

that were in the house had Robert's DNA on them at all. It's quite baffling how they managed to make this so convoluted but it does seem to be based on the idea that men can't ejaculate against their will which... It's so bizarre. This documentary wasn't made 20 years ago by the way, just before anybody thinks that. This documentary was made like recently.

It's just a 20 years ago. role case. They've made it, so, like, I don't believe that Robert was secretly by it or gay or whatever. But how complicated they've made this, I'm like, that makes more sense to me than all of this stuff. Yeah, because in the documentary, they literally say, men can't ejaculate against that way. I'm like, what? Who wrote this? Who edited this? Who approved this? I had to go down a rabbit hole of like all the different ways in which I wanted to double and triple check that men can ejaculate. Men can ejaculate. Men can ejaculate under general anesthetic, men can ejaculate when they're asleep.

We all know that. When they get hanged. When they, yes, the idea that men don't ejaculate or can't physically ejaculate against their will is such a bizarre, preposterous thing. But it truly leads them on this bonkers thing where they're like looking at all these different like sex toys. They're like talking about how there was this like electrical machine that Dylan had in his room that must have been clamped onto Robert and forced him to ejaculate and like it was all part

of this humiliation play and look I'm not saying that wasn't that wasn't what happened but I'm saying is it could have also just whanked him off against his will just have a knife coerce him and like the idea that it had to be some diabolical sex toy that did this and also a hand will put semen inside a person you don't need a sex toy to do it the police are genuinely they they are just not a fay with anything and it's like they just go wild they go wild and I get it I guess it's like if they find one of the sex toys with his DNA on is such conclusive evidence but they don't find that we've come across investigations like this before where there's you know sex is involved and it just seems to like I've seen before investigators being like

I actually have no idea about sex at all yeah I don't know how it works don't ask me No idea. That's what it feels like. It always does. They're always like, how could I possibly have any information on how this works? Yeah. I honestly, it's so baffling to watch this, like, to hear that line, Mankana Jack Leigh against I will, or whatever they say,

I'm paraphrasing in the document job site. That's what did it. That's the immediate point at which, instead of going down this route, you just went mad. And as for how Robert Seaman got inside himself. apparently after death when men's bodies decomposed semen can leak into different bits of themselves but that's like

major decomposition and Robert's autopsy was carried out the day that he died seems very obvious the most likely explanation is that whoever did this forcibly made Robert ejaculate probably with his hands and then tried to use the resulting material

as lubrication for anal sex that never completed, never happened. And that makes the intruder theory even more preposterous because now you would have to believe that Robert was sexually assaulted and stabbed without the three other men in the house knowing about it. Which doesn't really make sense with the timeline of their own story given how close together the chime and the grunting slash scream and the final chime all supposedly occurred. All right, should we talk about the signal awards?

Sure. Sure. That is the level of enthusiasm. We would love you guys to have for us too. Because if you remember, we made the podcast series Flesh and Code with Wondery. We were super excited like the minute they brought that story to us. Because if we haven't listened to Flesh and Code, it's essentially about following people who essentially fall in love with their like AI companions. It's about Russian interference and all sorts of crazy things and about how these AI companions are to be trusted. whether this is a good thing, how it was impacting on a larger scale, and the ramifications when a replica that was the company at the heart of it took away the erotic roleplay function and didn't go well. Spoilers. So we loved making it. We spent what 18 months making that show and we worked so, so hard on it. And so we are going to ask a very small favour of you guys shockingly to us. Flesh and Code has been put up for the listener's choice category of the Signal Awards, 2025.

So we would love you guys to please help us out and basically try to get some more eyes and ears on Flesh and Code because it was a real labour of love for us. What you guys need to do is go to the Signal Awards website and vote for Flesh and Code. Again, it's in the listener's choice category and you can find us under documentaries. That's the category you're looking for. And then under limited series and specials. Voting is open until the 9th of October so you really don't have much time, like literally go do this now. And we would just be so incredibly grateful because if we did win the

listener's choice for Flesh and Code at the Signals Award, then it would just mean the world to us. Thank you. Nearly 30 years ago, a vicious serial killer murdered five women in and around the city of Mons in Belgium, not far from where I'm standing right now. He taunted authorities, placing their dismembered body parts in locations designed to terrorize the population. There was a macabre and mysterious discovery of body parts apparently dismembered with a sore, according to investigators. His identity remains unknown, but his name still sparks fear.

The Butcher of Moss. Ten trash bags have been discovered so far. Investigators believe it is the work of a serial killer. For the moment, none of the victims have been identified. We've unearthed new evidence, new witnesses, and new suspects. This is Le Monstre, Season 2, The Butcher. of moss listen for free on the iHeart radio app apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts so if anybody else needs any more convincing that this wasn't an intruder i would like to talk about

the positioning of the wounds so when you read the autopsy report you see that basically they describe all three wounds as being orientated at the tenacly and 4 o'clock axes. I was like, what are they fucking talking about? But if you pull up a clock face, this is going to help visualize it a little bit better. But essentially, if I'm Robert and I'm lying down, we're saying that the three wounds are going across my body from 10 o'clock to 4 o'clock. Everyone with me? And what you need to know is basically the 4 o'clock end, the bit that is inside, I guess, slanting downwards, is blunt. Whereas a 10 o'clock wound, so the top of the wound, is sharp.

So basically, you're saying that they would have been holding the knife with the sharp edge facing outwards and the blunt edge facing inwards towards their arm and towards their wrist. That just seems like a very strange way to hold a knife. If you were stabbing somebody from above. Do you know when it's not weird? It's if somebody was stabbing you from behind. If somebody came behind Robert and stabbed him with their arm going across his chest, this is the exact pattern you would expect to see.

So this to me again, it's not a smoking gun on its own, but once again makes it very unlikely that it was an intruder because it kind of makes it look like whoever did it was either in bed with Robert when they did it and they were stabbing him from behind or they stabbed him somewhere completely different he was stabbed from behind and then they posed him in the bed. I don't know.

But I think that this positioning of the wounds seems very unlikely given the pattern of the knife marks that this person stabbed from above because they would be holding the knife in a very, very unusual way and stabbing at a very unusual angle. So, let's talk about the knife.

Knife stuff. Yes. The knife that was either in Robert's chest or on top of his chest when Joe and Victor said that they found him. The knife in question was a knife from the kitchen

of 1509 Swan Street. But is it the murder weapon? police don't think so because the knife that was found was six inches long but all three of the stab wounds to Robert were consistently four to five inches deep and whilst you might get wounds that are deeper than the knife being used for example if someone's stabbing with more force or less it's quite hard to imagine how likely it is that someone would stab another person three times with a knife that's six inches long but each time they don't put the whole thing in there.

Yeah, this is, yeah, like, it's worth mentioning, for sure. Not impossible, but, you know, one or two inches short consistently is worth noting. Especially when one of the stab wounds, it does say in the autopsy, went through Robert Sternum, which is obviously a very hard part of your body. And I guess in one way I could say that it's because it's so hard that maybe that's why you couldn't get the knife all the way through. But you've really got a push. And it's the fact that it is consistent. in each of the wounds.

Also, there wasn't any bruising found on Robert's body, which you would usually see when the heel of the stabber's hand comes into contact with the victim's body on impact. The police were sure that the knife at the scene was a plant. But much like the clean-up, the question has to be, why bother? Thank you.

So much is made about whether this is the real knife or not. And I'm like, yeah, you can be like, oh, it's a ninch or two out, blah, blah, but I'm like, why would you bother? Why would you bother fucking put in a fake fucking knife there? Like, if the killer was really an intruder who ran off with the knife that he had actually used in the commission of this murder, well, obviously, he wouldn't plant a fake one, right, because he's just an unknown mystery ninja. But even if it was one of the men in the house who did this, why would you bother going to the effort of getting rid of the real murder weapon? to put a fake one in its place in that room.

Why wouldn't you just get rid of the murder weapon to make it look like the killer took it with him? I don't understand. Like, is the theory that they got rid of the real murder weapon because it incriminated them in a way? Was it too obvious for them to clean that knife? Like, I really don't know. They say it's one of the knives from their house,

so how could any other knife that could have been found in their house be more incriminating? to them. Like, I don't get it. But this is basically the police's theory. The police found in Dylan's room a, like, fancy boxed, like, three-set carving knife. And one of the knives in there is missing. And basically they say that it's the knife that would have been the right size

because they can see, like, where it would have sat in the set, that it would have been the right size for the wounds that Robert had suffered. the knife found in the room that Robert was in was from the kitchen downstairs so could have just been grabbed by an intruder even though it's very hard to understand why a would-be killer would grab a smallish steak knife when there were much bigger knives down in the kitchen

but okay if it was the carving knife from Dylan's room where is it and I guess some people will be like well maybe it's because that boxed set of knives was in his room and they couldn't explain how the killer had got into his room but the other knife is in the kitchen. Just take the fucking box set downstairs. You stayed in a fucking murder scene. Like I don't understand why it wouldn't just be the carving set knife if that was really the one that was used. Why would they try to cover it up with a steak knife from the

kitchen? Like I don't get it. I was trying to run through this with Sam and he was like, maybe that's a family heirloom and he didn't want the police to take it. And I was like, maybe. but the police search that house from top to bottom and all the alleys around that house they search the streets they search the bins again you could say the police are incompetent they just didn't find the knife that it was just hidden really well and I grant knew that's entirely possible

with the way they botched this case but again to me it's just the question of why bother planting a fake because they never found the knife that should have fitted in that box set but why bother I mean either leave it

or hide it. Why a fake question? Maybe this is how you get away with murder. You just make it so fucking confusing that no one can be bothered. The thing is, yes, because I can fucking get away with it. But for me,

if they had like wildly underestimated or wrongly estimated what type of knife was used, right? Like they use a knife and then they like, quick, get a fake knife for whatever reason. This is what led to the questions about the conspiracy, right?

Because when they go to the proceedings that we're going to talk about, one of the police's key points is this can't be the knife that was used and that was the way they were going to prove there was a conspiracy to cover up. So the more you start planting fake evidence, the more likely you are

to incriminate yourself because the intruder wouldn't have planted fake evidence. So either hide it, chuck it outside and just say the intruder ran off and chucked it in a bin as he was fleeing or leave it be. The minute you start planting fake evidence, you leave yourself more and more exposed

to be caught for conspiracy to cover up. Why would you cover it up? There's no reason to cover it up if it wasn't one of you. You wouldn't cover it up for an intruder, so therefore it's you. So, I don't know. I know we're nearly there, guys. Come on, we got it. Well, not really.

We've got five pages to go. There's a lot made of the fact that forensics discovered white fibers on the knife found in the room with Robert and that these fibers were consistent with the towel that had allegedly been used by Joe. to apply pressure to Robert's wounds. And it stated that there was not much blood on the sharp edge of the blade and the police and prosecution thought that it looked like someone had dipped the towel

in Robert's blood and then wiped the towel on the knife. They also didn't find any grey fibres from the T-shirt that Robert was wearing, which again makes some people believe that it wasn't the knife that stabbed him. But then you have to ignore the fact that Robert's chest hairs and Roberts' flesh and fat were found on the knife,

which makes me think that it definitely was the knife that was used to kill him. And again, these facts could be up for discussion one way or another, but the issue we need to point out is why plant the knife at all? Leave the actual knife or hide it. The plant serves no real purpose. Yeah, I think that's the thing that I can't get away from with that. So, who do we think did it?

Personally, for me, it's Dylan. Joe, I know Joe is a favourite for a lot of people, but here's my theory for why I don't think it was Joe. Joe invited Robert over to the house. They are long-time friends. And they have a lot of mutual friends. And Joe is also a hot-shot lawyer. He is an associate at the time at Aunt Fox.

And yeah, look, people can be. arrogant enough or stupid enough to do despicable things and think they can get away with it. And people don't always act in their own best interest, especially when it comes to sex. They can take big risks, particularly men. So I'm not saying it's impossible that Joe did this because he's successful and has too much to lose. But I just don't see it. Joe and Victor were huge in the D.C. gay community. Joe was the face for many advocacy campaigns for gay rights at the time. The story that we told you about how Joe and Victor had both fathered a child each with a lesbian couple had actually been featured in USA Today at the time. It might sound

like not particularly revolutionary now, but 20 years ago, it was big news. And Victor and Joe were like the poster boys for fighting to legalize gay marriage and for providing America with this like vision for gay marriage and gay families. And Joe loved that. Love for that side of his life because it gave him a lot of like infamy and that's not to say that he wasn't totally fucked there's definitely evidence of narcissistic tendencies at some of the time that's not enough for you um i don't think you'll be able to deny it when you consider that joe had his own receiving line at robert's funeral right opposite kathy robert's wife that to me was just like what the actual fuck if i was kathy i would punch him in his

face. Kathy is just like the nicest person. I know she is. I'm not. I know. I'm just like, Kathy, I just want to give her a hug and like punch people on her behalf because a receiving line. I don't, did people do that a lot in this country? Because I've never been to a funeral. So like, I don't know.

But I understand what it means. And I'm like, why is Joe got one? That is bonkers. Family only. Like partner, children, if there are any, that's it. it's bonkers and when it comes to the home set up at Swan Street it does appear that Victor was controlled by Joe

you can see that in the way that Joe sent him off to make the 911 call in a different room upstairs which honestly I'm pretty sure was to implicate Victor in the situation as well I totally think that I think it was like Joe knows he's into it up to his neck even though it's Dylan that's done it in my theory in my theory right because Joe knows he's the one

that's brought Dylan into this house So Victor is the one that could blow the whole thing, right? Oh, yeah. So Victor, you go make the call. You've now lied to 911. You've now lied to the authorities. You're in this as much as we are. And when it comes to Dylan, he's painted as this, like, sex maniac dom person.

And maybe he was. Maybe he still is. But all of the equipment, etc. Where exactly had that come from? He worked as a masseuse, probably an escort. But he also had some really expensive stuff. Doesn't that make more sense that Joe, the very successful lawyer, was funding it all for his own benefit? Joe's not stupid.

Would he really invite his friend over, his happily married straight friend, and then try to do what? Seduce him, coerce him, rape him, why would he do that? He and Dylan already had their sexy setup, and Joe also regularly involved other men. And we know that because he would post on ALT.com looking for men who were also into BDSM to join him. and Dylan and I think this bit is interesting because I saw a lot of comments

from people who are in the BDSM world saying that it's very weird for the sub to be posting online asking for other people to join them. I don't know anything about this world

so I'm taking them at their word if I'm wrong short of joining the BDSM community I can't be any more thorough in my research but basically what they're saying that it would be the that did this because it's up to the dom to decide who else joins.

It's not up to the sub. So that's the theory. So Joe posting about it when he's the sub, they say is unusual. But in my opinion, I really doubt the whole dom sub role between Dylan and Joe extended long beyond Joe's climax. I agree. And like, he's the dom in life, for sure. And also, like, I thought about this like when I was very, very briefly on field. like it not it was oh there's a scary place um but like even when men talk to you on there and they

want to be dominated by you them telling me to do that is also quite dominant do you know what i mean like it's all quite complicated this is what i mean it's like if the dom in real life is the sub in the game then of course joe wasn't just going to be like yeah Dylan you decide who else joins us like he's not going to be like yeah you decide who else comes into my house and like gets to have sex with me, he is the dom in real life. So, yeah, I think, whatever, but what you see here is that Joe, it's not enough for Joe, just what he's doing with Dylan. So what do I think happened here?

Now, this is all, of course, pure speculation. But was Dylan trying to push things further with Joe? And I say this because a neighbor told the police that she had had a weird conversation with Dylan in the months before Robert's murder. Apparently Dylan had told this neighbour that he was, quote, planning to take over Victor's spot in the relationship,

presumably as Joe's main partner. Was Dylan trying to step things up with Joe? Maybe there had been some chat or like fantasy chat between Joe and Dylan coming from Joe about maybe wanting to do something to a man against his will.

I'm not saying Joe, Joe wanted to do that or was going to do that. But like fantasy, like rape fantasy stuff from Joe to Dylan. So maybe it was just role play for Joe. Let's give him the benefit of the doubt that it's just chat on his part. Did Dylan think Joe's being serious? That's what he wants. And that's what I'll give him.

And so did Dylan take things too far? Did he want to quote unquote surprise Joe with Robert? Was there even maybe chat from Joe to, Dylan about Robert in the past that you know he's his friend i'm not saying joe was secretly hot for robert but i'm just saying you know was it dylan taking some sexual fantasy chat too far into the real world i don't know but coming back to jo posting online to get other men to come and join them did dylan see victor's role in joe's life as the kind of stable public face husband partner as like making Victor indispensable in Joe's life because Victor is like

a hundred percent apart of these advocacy campaigns he's like you know we're basically married we're championing for gay marriage so Victor is very useful to Joe he can't get rid of him he doesn't want to get rid of him but now that Joe is starting to like put calls out for other men to join them does Dylan feel vulnerable in like being able to keep Joe's interest in him And therefore is he trying to up the sexual ante by going really, really far? I don't know. I know it feels far-fetched, but honestly, I can't think of what else makes sense. So does Dylan basically go into Robert's room as Robert is, you know,

finishing up those emails with his mouth garden? And did he forcibly masturbate Robert? Was it filmed for Joe? And then did Dylan lose control? And as Robert totally freaked out, because, you know, maybe he's got a knife and Robert's just scared. and complying and then Robert freaks out, you know, when he makes it clear that he's going to anally penetrate him and then does Dylan suffocate or inject Robert with something and then Robert passes out, Joe comes down because he hears what's going on and discovers what happened

or did Dylan drug Robert straight away? He goes in there, drugs Robert, gives him an injection of something and then he tells Joe to come downstairs. Like, I've got a surprise for you. And then Joe comes down. Dylan thinks Joe's going to be. into it. He's not into it. He's like, what the fuck have you done? And then does Victor come down because either he hears something or he follows Joe downstairs because he's sick of the whole fucking Joe Dylan situation. And then they find Robert. Victor screams. This scream is heard next door by the neighbours. And then the three men either think that Robert is dead or they know that he can't wake up because they'd all be fucked because he's obviously going to point

the finger at Dylan and Joe knows that he has a lot to lose. So then does Joe make Dylan clean up after himself? Stab Robert so that they can stage it to look like an intruder and then they get Victor to go call 911 because now they're all implicated. And look, I appreciate that this version has lots of holes in it still, but it's the closest I can get. I think, yeah, that's the closest I can get. Because I think we haven't just jumped to that theory.

we've worked through all the other possibilities I feel like and ruled them in or out before we got here. The thing I still don't know is like about the drugs like I don't know

but then yeah maybe Victor just had something and he needed to incapacitate Robert because he wants it to be part of this fantasy I don't know but a lot of people online say that Dylan was the one who was losing interest in Joe and Joe was the one trying desperately

to keep Dylan in his life I haven't really seen evidence of that Joe's the top dog He's the one with the money He's the one with the job He's the one like Who's got a lot to lose He's the dominant one

And I think people say that Because Joe goes so far out To protect Dylan But he's not protecting Dylan He's protecting himself I think Dylan was scared Joe was losing interest Yeah I mean

The same thing goes for Victor He also has too much to lose Yeah Absolutely He's got a good life for Joe And maybe Dylan was promised that he'd get away with it as long as he kept quiet. Yeah, I think that the deal is Joe gets to keep hold of Joe's life,

Victor gets to keep hold of Joe and their life, and Dylan doesn't go to prison for murder. And as bonkers as it all seems, at first, Kathy and Robert's friends believed Joe that it was some random intruder. Perhaps they thought Joe was Robert's friend, why would he lie? In fact, the day after the murder, friends of the ones said that the three men, Victor Dillon and Joe, turned up at Kathy's house and they asked to speak to her alone in the basement. We don't know what was said, but Kathy believed them that they were all innocent.

And at the funeral, Joe was a pallbearer for Robert, and he spent the entire time playing victim, according to other people who were also there. It wasn't until Joe called the lawyer friend who was helping Cathy navigate the whole nightmarish situation and asked him to get Kathy to waive her privilege to allow this lawyer to basically pass on everything detectives that had been asking Kathy to Joe that Kathy started to suspect something. And Joe was right to be concerned

because eventually after the police showed her everything Kathy turned on Joe, Victor and Dylan. But the police were floundering they had run a very poor investigation and they couldn't move forward were trying to convict any of the men because they didn't have any solid evidence tying one or more of them down. And none of them looked ready to break. So when exhausted Cathy, a year after her husband's murder, held a press conference alongside Eric Holder,

who's the former US attorney and Justice Department official, where she pleaded with the killer to come clean. Saying, having a murder on your conscience is no small load to carry as you try to live as normal a life as possible. Confessing will be one of the hardest things you can do, but also one of the most freeing things you can do for yourself. Didn't work. Silence.

Yeah. And with the police unable to arrest them, Joe and Victor sold 1509 Swan Street and moved to Florida with Dylan. And at first they stayed together, as a family, in quotes. But the police weren't done. And in November 2008, they charged Joe, Victor and Dylan with obstruction of justice, conspiracy to obstruct justice, and tampering with evidence. It was clear from the evidence that the men weren't being honest about what happened that night,

given that there would be no need to lie or hide things if it wasn't one or more of them. This was essentially a backdoor murder charge. And as a result of these charges, an affidavit was released to the public. And it outlined everything the police had found in the house and totally transformed the public mood around this case. Up until then, friends and also the gay community in D.C. had stood by Joe and Victor. But now, after they found out about all of the torture porn and extreme devices in the house, all of that support with it away.

And a couple who lived nearby, David Greer and Doug Johnson, and started the investigative blog, which I believe they still run today, who murdered Robert won. And it has been a very, very, very invaluable resource in helping to write these episodes. So thank you very much, both of you guys. And if you're interested in this case

and looking at all the pitches of everything, like definitely go check out that blog. So in the lead up to the trial, the men hired three top-tier attorneys and they agreed to run a joint defense, which basically meant that all of these attorneys and all of the men could share confidential information with each other without losing attorney-client privilege.

And it started to pay off immediately. I literally cannot believe these things happened. Basically, two weeks before the trial, the attorneys managed to get all of the sexual stuff, including the hardcore BDSM, the sex toys, all of the hardcore, like, torture, porn videos that were in the house, everything removed from the evidence. Everything is gone. And they also managed to get the suspected sexual assault drop from the record, which meant that the seaman was also now not allowed to be brought up at the trial.

Essentially, the judge decided that the police couldn't prove that there had been a sexual assault. And they couldn't link that sexual activity, because there was clearly sexual activity, but the judge says that you couldn't link that sexual activity with the murder. Which again comes back to the thing that we said, that it feels unbelievable, that that happened separately to him also getting murdered within the same. small 30 minute window. But, okay. And then it just got worse.

This is quite difficult to understand coming from the prosecution. Anyway, the defence pushed for a bench trial, knowing damn well that a jury would likely find it hard to ignore the glaring issues with the men's story. And the prosecution allowed it.

Glenn Kircher, the lead prosecutor, now says that he does regret this move, and it was a pretty large mistake. because it meant that the prosecution would have to make their case to the judge and the judge alone, and prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, that the three men conspired to cover up the murder of Robert Wan. If found guilty, each of them faced up to 38 years in prison. But it was not going to be easy to get them in there.

Yeah. And I kind of feel like the prosecution made a rodent. for their own back here, not just with the bench trial over the jury trial, but also because to do this, to prove that the men had conspired in this like cover-up of the murder, they decided that they were going to prove that there had been no intruder, firstly, which, okay, that one makes sense, big tick, but also according to Glenn Kirchner, they also decided to prove that there had been some sort of clean-up. I think possibly the reason they go with this is, a, like we said if somebody's found with three stab wounds

you expect there to be a lot of blood when there isn't a lot of blood you're thinking why isn't there a lot of blood if they cleaned it up it's conspiracy I also think they were hamstrung here by Dr Goslenoski the emmy saying that the cause of death was the stab wounds and that Robert was alive for a while afterwards she also said that a third of

his blood volume was missing so the question obviously becomes where did all that blood go we will come back to this later but I think oh they really because you didn't find any blood but you're saying there was a cleanup like that's tricky like that's a big big big decision to make kurchin also decided that they were going to show that the knife found in the room

with robert's body was a plant and to be honest i'm like why do you need to show that because like we said even if it had been like i don't know why they need to show that because it could have been the knife used to stab robert and it's still been one of the men in the house like I think they're so fixated on this idea of it being the carving knife that should have been in Dylan's little three-piece knife set and yeah go with that theory if you'd have found Dylan's three-piece carving knife that's missing you know chuck down a drain somewhere or hidden away in the house somewhere but they never find it so why are you going down that road

it's like they wanted three points that they could say beyond a reasonable doubt these things happened but they just don't get there It did not go well for the prosecution. The defence showed that you could open the front door of 1509 Swan Street by opening the letterbox and sticking your arm in from the outside. Which is terrifying. You have to have quite skinny arms to do that, though. Just get a little skinny kid.

Get a child. It's possible. It's possible. Yeah. They also showed that it was possible to climb up and down the fences in the back garden without disturbing the soil in the flower beds. Which like, yes, it's possible. but why? Yeah, right.

And a woman next door came forward and said that she had found footprints in her child's sandbox, like someone had landed on it. The defence also pulled in none other than Dr. Henry Lee, who explained that Robert's heart had stopped quickly after being stabbed, and that's why there was no car stop. And that was backed up by Dr. Najam, a physician from the hospital where Robert was taken. He stated that the stab wound to Robert's heart could have caused immediate incapacitation and would have caused a torrential flow of internal bleeding

instead of an enormous amount of external bleeding. And this internal bleeding can be soaked up into surrounding tissues, making it harder to measure accurate blood volume. And this is the issue with Emmie's findings that a third of Robert's blood was missing. It's not like she drained him to see how much blood was actually. in his body. Dr. Goslenoski just noted that there was no blood at the scene and less blood than she would expect to see

in different isolated areas of Robert's body. Yeah, it really is like dressed up online as if she drained his whole body and there's a third missing. That's not the case. Like it could have easily soaked into tissues and she just doesn't know it's there, right? And there's heaps and it's small and Hurston. Exactly, two footworth.

Yeah. As for the plant knife, well, Dylan's mum comes to the rescue here. She made an appearance at the trial to say that she had sent her son, that three-piece carving set. But before she sent it to him, she had taken out one of the knives and kept it for herself. But she now had no idea where it was. But basically, that's why it was missing. Sadly, in the end, after a 20-day trial in June 2010,

the judge reached a verdict of not guilty for all three men on all charges. But it is a very weird situation. Basically, the judge states in her final report that she did not believe that the murder was committed by an intruder. So, by default, you are therefore saying that it was committed by somebody in the house. She also concluded that the knife found in the room with Robert was most likely the murder weapon, and I would tend to agree with her. But she did say that she thought Joe Price had tampered with it in some way.

She also ruled that, quote, some or all of them have some knowledge of the circumstances of this case that they could have shared with law enforcement, but for whatever reason they chose not to. But she found them all not guilty, saying, quote, there's a difference between a moral certainty and an evidentiary certainty. The following year, Cathy brought a civil suit against Joe Price, Victor Saborski and Dylan Ward for the wrongful death of her husband. And they quickly settled out of court for an undisclosed amount, which Kathy donated to charity.

Clearly, they did not want to fight that battle in any kind of court again. And Kathy has said that it was all just too exhausting to keep dragging it out. After all this, Dylan and Joe both changed their names, and eventually the gang split up. Today, Joe and Victor still seem to be together, living in Florida. Dylan has left that particular relationship and is now married to somebody else. And it's unlikely in this case that we're ever going to know what really happened because it is one of those unbelievable cases where three people are definitely in on a secret. And they are all keeping quiet.

And honestly, now, 20 years later, I just can't see what would cause any of them to break because they got away with it. Yeah. The only scenario in which I see anybody breaking ranks. is if Joe ended things with Victor. And I think that would be the point that maybe he would come clean to get back at Joe.

That's the only thing I can see because they wrote out all the scrutiny. They wrote out all the guilt for all these years. And they never caved. But short of one of them breaking now, this case will never truly be solved. No. So, and I think Dylan's not going to,

he got away with it. He's mad at somebody else. I think Joe and Victor are probably only still, together because they have this secret that binds them and Joe knows what Victor has over him and that's what Victor wants is the relationship with Joe again purely theoretical

but I think Joe knows that if he were to leave that situation that Victor wouldn't be more likely to be like I'm going to the police. Not saying for sure but it's just my theory what's your theory? Who did it? I think Dylan did it where I

what I can't decide is Whether they intentionally made it so confusing, knowingly, to get away with it. Or whether they just got really fucking lucky. Yeah. Personally, I think they got lucky. I think they tried to keep it as simple as possible to not incriminate themselves, hence not making like a struggle scene or anything like that.

But I think the prosecution just the forensics fucked up with the Ashley's reagent. But I really don't think that's the biggest thing. I think the fact that they couldn't pin it on any of them, yes, some people will be like it's because they failed to break Victor. He was the one they should have targeted and tried to break. But they did, but he wasn't budging. He wasn't budging. Yeah, that's true.

And then I think they just made it very, very difficult at the obstruction of justice trial by trying to prove there was a clean-up, by trying to prove it was a fake, like, planted knife. When, like, that doesn't prove the conspiracy. But I get it. I suppose it's like, what else could they have done to show? that these men can spy to cover it up or they would have really been left with is to show there wasn't

an intruder. But to me, I'm like, well, isn't that enough? If you can prove there was no intruder, but then you've got the defence saying somebody could have broken in, somebody could have jumped over the fence. You can't prove there was no intruder. I don't know. It's tricky. But I honestly think if they'd gone for a jury trial, I think they would have been convicted. I don't think the jury could have got past those questions,

like the judge was able to because she's like, moral certainty, evidentiary certainty. I think a jury would have convicted. And I think Glenn Kirchner knows that now. Well, not that he had to learn that lesson but I don't know I don't know why they did that I don't know why they did that and I get it some people will also argue if you are ever accused of a crime you should go for a bench trial over a no that's exactly the reason because people will say if you ever get accused of a crime and you're going to trial demand a bench trial not a jury trial some people say you know in the US you only have to convince one juror you're not guilty but I think that someone should tell them that 12 angry men's just a play yeah But I think the judge is going to be more discerning about certain things. I think they're going to be more logical. Because, you know, it's all well and good saying, okay, if we've decided there's no intruder,

it has to be one of them. Yeah. You still have to prove which one. And that's hard. That's the problem. I think that is the problem for the judge is that she can't get to which of them did it. Exactly. So then they can't punish all of them.

Even though I'm like, but it wasn't a murder charge. It was an obstruction of justice. And I think you can prove that all of them are in the obstruction of justice. but again she's saying you can't prove it and she knows that they did it because she says moral certainty it's fucked it's fucked but it's never going to be solved

sadly certainly not by me my brain's out my ears I am frazzled that's just a fine bead of sweat over my face but that's it guys thank you so much for sticking with us for these two parts on Who Killed Robert One

you know we've put forward our theories I'm interested to hear what people think And yeah, I think with this story, you see a lot of like, well, it was just this. Well, it was just this. And I'm like, we've been through it all now. So I'm interested to see what people think now. But yeah, that's it. Thanks so much.

And we'll see you next week for something else when I have recovered. Goodbye. I won't have. I'm Raza Jafri, and in the latest season of The Spy Who, we open the file on Morton Storm, the spy who lived inside Al-Qaeda. Unfulfilled with his life in a notorious Danish biker gang, Morton Storm is lost. One afternoon he stumbles into a library looking for answers. He finds them in the form of a book about Islam.

The towering ginger-haired Dane doesn't know it yet, but that moment will hurl him into a world of radicalism and see him rise through the ranks of militant Islamist organization. al-Qaeda, only to suffer a huge crisis of faith. He turns from devotee to spy, tasked with rooting out some of al-Qaeda's most feared generals. The CIA and MI5 bid for his allegiance, as he loses himself in a life of cash-laden suitcases,

double crosses and betrayal. Follow the spy who on the Wondery app, or wherever you listen to podcasts, or you can binge the full season of The Spy Who Lived inside Al-Qaeda, early and ad-free with Wondery Plus. How hard is it to kill a planet? Maybe all it takes is a little drilling, some mining, and a whole lot of carbon pumped into the atmosphere.

When you see what's left, it starts to look like a crime scene. Are we really safe? Is our water safe? You destroyed our time. And crimes like that, they don't just happen. We call things accidents. There is no accident. This was 100% preventable. They're the result of choices by people. ruthless oil tycoons, corrupt politicians, even organized crime.

These are the stories we need to be telling about our changing planet. Stories of scams, murders, and cover-ups that are about us, and the things we're doing to either protect the Earth or destroy it. Follow Lawless Planet on the Wondry app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to new episodes of Lawless Planet early and ad-free right now by joining Wondry Plus in the Wondry app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify. Thank you.