RedHanded - Robert Wone - The Dead of Night: Part One | #424

Episode Date: November 6, 2025

Just 72 minutes after Robert Wone arrived at the fancy Washington DC townhouse of his College pal, 911 received a call that he was dead.Was it a drug-fuelled gay orgy gone wrong? A horrific rape and murder? An opportunistic burglar? The scene, Robert’s injuries, the surviving residents’ stories – nothing added up…In part one, we introduce strait-laced lawyer Robert Wone – and hear from the other men in the apartment that night: a messy throuple, with a romantic dynamic as changeable as their alibis.Exclusive bonus content:Wondery - Ad-free & ShortHandPatreon - Ad-free & Bonus EpisodesFollow us on social media:YouTubeTikTokInstagramVisit our website:WebsiteSources available on redhandedpodcast.comSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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Listen to American history tellers on The Wonderia, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Saruti. I'm Hanam. And welcome to red-handed. Okay. This case. Anytime anyone just like interrupts a conversation that I might be having with some other people in the last like month,

you can guarantee this is a case I was talking about. I've realized that like my specific vibe of case is historical. hopefully something to do with World War II World War I if I have to yours is closed door mystery that's your fucking shit you love them can't get enough

you couldn't have put it better my I couldn't have put it better myself you couldn't have put it better myself this case it's very like Ellen Greenberg situation but more bonkers

way more bonkers It is way more bonkers. Right, so let's get into it. At 10.30pm on the 2nd of August 2006, Robert won, a 32-year-old lawyer, arrived at the DC home of his friend Joe Price. Robert had worked late that evening, and so he was crashing in the guestroom of his old college pal. It was a Wednesday, and everyone had to be up early the next morning. So Robert, Joe, Joe's partner, Victor Zaborski, and their lodger, Dylan Ward, all turned in soon after. but nobody would be getting a peaceful night's sleep.

Because, just 79 minutes after Robert arrived at 1509 Swan Street, a 911 call was made from the house. Help us, reinforce staff, throwing a second floor. Oh, my second, I don't know. Robert One had been murdered. The investigation that followed is one that baffled the police and the public alike. The scene, Robert's injuries, the surviving men's stories, nothing added up. And to this day, 20 years later, the truth of who killed Robert One is still a mystery.

And this is honestly one of the most bizarre stories I've ever come across. And it has jumped to the top of my, if I could know, really happened that night cases. Oh, okay. This would be it. I've got a strong theory that we're going to talk about next week because, yes, this is going to have to be a two-parter. But, yeah, I've spent the last few weeks just like, I've got a board patch from scratching.

It's so bizarre. But let's go into it. Before we get into everything that happened on that strange evening, and then in the days, weeks, months and years that followed Robert One's death, we're going to start with Robert himself. He was, by all accounts, an incredibly kind, lovely and intelligent guy. Just two weeks before his murder, he'd been the best man at his friend Jason Tujinsky's wedding. In the Peacock documentary on this case, who killed Robert One, which is actually for Peacock, rather good. You can see right from the gate how loved Robert was by everyone. Even in the footage of

him at somebody else's wedding he just genuinely seems like a really nice person truly i know everyone always says that about people who were murdered but like sometimes that's not true but with robert it really is and like even when i was writing this like talking about robert's personal life talking about some of the things that happened to him it's just writing it down just made me feel so like uncomfortable because he just seems like the nicest person Robert, who was Chinese American, grew up in Brooklyn and had always excelled academically. He went to the very highly regarded William and Mary College, the second oldest university in the US, after Harvard, that's a good fact. A school that holds the rare status of public ivy for its top quality academic programmes.

And it was here that Robert became good friends with Joe Price. Whilst at college, Robert was also a member of the 13 club, a secret society that at first I thought was just some sort of like wanky, uni drinking club or something. But it was actually a club that carried out anonymous acts of kindness and philanthropy and try to dispel superstitions around the number 13, which is adorable. I have to admit, when this first comes up in the documentary, I'm like, that's coming back later. No. Nope. Never comes back up. And after graduating in 1996,

Robert went to the University of Pennsylvania Law School, where he consistently ranked top of its class. So it was no surprise to anyone when Robert landed a fiercely competitive position as a law clerk to a judge. I know Americans say clerk, but you're wrong. Then, in 2000, Robert accepted a job at the illustrious law firm Covington

and Burling. During this time, Robert also met and married the woman he described as the love of his life, who's called Kathy. And after six years of the corporate grind, Robert quit his job and in June 2006 moved to Radio Free Asia, a not-for-profit that provides accurate and timely news to Asian countries whose governments prohibit access to free press. Radio Free Asia has also played a major role in exposing what's actually going on in secretive Asian nations to us here in the West, for example, the Xinjiang internment camps. Robert was passionate about his work, saying that he wanted to make more of a difference in the world.

So, all in all, in August 2006, when Robert was killed, he did kind of have it all. He had a very happy marriage, according to everyone who knew him and Kathy, and a job that gave him a real sense of purpose, and on top of that a solid group of friends who loved him. So now, let's get back to the night in question. Robert finished work at 9.15 p.m. At 9.30, he called his wife Kathy to say good night. Then he called Joe at 10 to let him know that he was heading over. At 1030, Robert arrived at 1509 Swan Street. According to Joe, Victor and Dylan, Robert came in. He had a glass of water by the sink in the kitchen. They all stood around making small talk for a while. Then Joe and Dylan showed Robert where he'd be sleeping. And by 10.4. 45, they were all in their rooms.

And this property, 1509 Swan Street, is a very nice house in a very fashionable part of D.C., DuPont Circle. I don't know it, but that's what I've heard. That's what I've been told. So if I'm wrong, sorry. And basically this house, what you want to imagine, is a mid-terriss townhouse that's got three floors and four bedrooms. Now, we're going to be talking about the floors of this particular house. townhouse quite a lot in these two episodes. So to keep it simple, we're actually going to go with the American way of doing this, because I do think it makes more sense. It is one of the

only ones I will concede. You do do floors better than us. Yes. In the UK, we're like ground floor, first floor, second floor is better. No, no, no, no, no, no. So for the purposes of this episode and this episode alone, our next episode, we're going to do first floor, second floor, third floor. Everyone with me? Great. So Joe and Victor's room was on the third floor of the house, while Dylan's room was at the back of the house on the second floor. So the room that's away from the street. And the guest room that Robert stayed in was at the front of the house also on the second floor. So basically you've got Dylan's room, a hallway, and Robert's room. Robert's room is facing out into the front of the house onto the street. And it seems from

the evidence that Robert, after he went to his room, had a shower, got into a fresh t-shirt and boxes, and wrote a couple of emails. These emails were never sent because they were found in his drafts later. Now, one of these emails was to his wife Kathy at 1105, and one was to work, which was saved to his drafts at 1107. Now, the 911 call was placed at 1149. So whatever happened to Robert I think we can safely say happened within those 40 minutes if we believe that he is the one writing that email, which I think, you know, there's enough like holes in this that we don't need to dig further into that.

I think we can, let's assume, Robert did indeed write that email at 1107. The call is placed at 1149. Gives us a solid 40 minute window to work with. But after all of the men went to their respective rooms, the plot does start to get a bit hazy. and we'll get there when we get to the police interview section but for now we're going to stick to the bare bones

of what those men would later claim Victor and Joe said that they were in bed watching Project Catwalk and they fell asleep at around 11pm this is in 2006 right so we're talking OG wouldn't it have been Project Runway

maybe that would be my mistake I'm almost certain if that's the only thing I get called out for this episode, I'll be happy. Project Catwalks our version. Oh, okay. That's significantly worse than Project Runway. My apologies.

Project Runway has recently been revived. I haven't watched it yet, but I hear good things. Okay. I never watched it. Oh, it's fun. It's just a wrong. More fun than America's next top model? Nothing is more fun than America's next top model.

It's less problematic than America's next top model. But yeah, they, you know, they still are angry. They still shout each other, still cry over like a safety pin. It's Tim Gunn, who doesn't have Tim Gunn? They're not shaving people's heads and making men wear those weird, like, puby, do you remember the puby weird, like, lace-wit? And Tara Banks just yelling at girls with eating disorders. Good time.

Fun. So fun. Anyway, Dylan says that he was in his room down the hall from Robert, but that he'd taken a couple of sleeping pills and was knocked out, so he didn't hear a thing. Victor and Joe would go on to say, Then at some point that night, they heard the chime of their back door open. They had an alarm they never set.

But there was an electronic chime in place that pings whenever the door is opened. Who would have that in their home? And they also had like, because some people are like, how could you hear it if it's down on the first floor? But Joe explains us in the police interview. They have like another transmitter in their room. So when the back door opens, it chimes downstairs, but it also chimes in their room. Hidious. I am considering, though,

getting a, like, flashy light doorbell that deaf people have. Okay. So Mabel doesn't bark. Yeah. I think it's becoming a bit of a problem. Truly. They might just get one of those in my bedroom. Honestly, it was so good because Little Blue just never barked at anything.

He never barked. He was a mute. And now he's been hanging out with Big Blue who barks at everything. That's my problem, yeah. Oh, my God. Now he started barking and we're like, you don't bring this. I thought he couldn't. He can.

He found his voice. It's a problem. Every time he barks, he also looks like he might die. Oh, yeah. So it's not just annoying, it's all so scary. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Good times. Big blue, man.

I'm fucking out. I know. Anyway, so that chime doorbell on both floors is what woke Joe up, apparently. And then they heard a grunting slash screaming sound coming from below them. And then the chime of the back door went again. So they went down there to investigate, and they found Robert in his room. He'd been stabbed. Joe told Victor to go and call 911 from their room upstairs.

And we're going to listen to it now. We are going to break it up, because it's seven minutes long, so we can reflect on what's being said in more manageable chunks, because there is quite a lot going on. And just to clarify, the operator keeps calling Victor ma'am for some reason, and he never really corrects her, so it is a bit confusing. But it is definitely Victor that is on the phone. In D.C. Emergency 911, 1, Operator 6752, do you need police, fire, or ambulance?

What's wrong, ma'am, ma'am. What's wrong, ma'am? We had someone named us in our house, evidently, and they stab somebody. Okay, somebody's inside the house now? I don't know. We've heard. Are they bleeding? We see someone bleeding. Someone is bleeding in our health. Okay, where's they bleeding from?

I think he's, I think in the stomach. The stomach, is he conscious? I'm down for me. I'm going to send some help, okay? Female or male? It's a male. He's a friend of ours. You're spending the night with us.

Okay. And who was the person that stabbed him? Do you know? Is he conscious? We need an ambulance. Ma'am. He's not conscious. He's not conscious at all?

No. We need someone right now? Is he breathing? Listen to me, calm down. I'm going to help you. Okay, she's breathing. I'm upstairs, and she's downstairs. I don't know. Okay, who's downstairs with him?

My partner is downstairs with him. I don't need to look here. Paul's late to me at least. I think he's been too scary. Okay, who is the person? There's a lot already in the first minute of this call. The first thing Victor says when he's asked what emergency service he needs, he says we need an ambulance, which Okay, but he thinks that someone has been in his house and stabbed his friend, but there's no request for the police.

And look, I get it, it's just one part of this call, and I'm not just going to be like, got you. But I don't think it's unimportant because he even says, we had someone in our house evidently, but no police. It immediately makes me feel like his priority, isn't figuring out who did this, maybe because he already knows who did this, and he's protecting them. I just think it's weird that he doesn't also say they need the police, because he sounds scared in the call. And if that happened to me, I'll be like, we need an ambulance, we need the police, we need the police here. All that fucking ambulance is going to do.

Stop a person who maybe is still in your house who just stab somebody? I think it's weird. I don't know. I think like, on its own, if I had a person, someone who had been stabbed, like only concerned would be keeping them alive. Okay. So I would only be bothered about an ambulance. I would think about the police later, I think. Okay. I think it's the fear that is registering on him.

But again, like I said, fine. It's one point. Let's continue. Picture this. You're standing on the beach when you notice something strange. The horizon doesn't look right. At first, all you can see is a thin white line stretching as far as your eyes can see. Then the line starts to rise.

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He also talks about the intruder in the past tense, which does seem a bit strange because how do you absolutely know that he isn't still there hiding in your house? and then they stabbed somebody someone is bleeding in this house it's quite distant way of speaking Robert and Victor are friends they've known each other for years

this isn't just a random person that you found stabbed on the street so reducing Robert to someone does seem odd and like Victor is trying to create distance from Robert and maybe depersonalize him in this situation I don't know again it's just one other point but I am always suspicious when somebody starts saying someone about somebody that they know. And the usage of we, we, we, you're going to see this throughout the call.

He very rarely says I. He always says we. And look, maybe again, I'm reading too much into this. But it feels a bit like the retelling of a pre-agreed story between two people. If you're like, we think this, that means you've talked about it. How are you saying we think this if you don't know what the other person thinks? Now, again, each of these points taken in isolation proves nothing. And I certainly don't think we should just be, you know, pulling up 911 calls and being like, go arrest that person.

But the totality of the weirdness of this call, to me, points to deception on Victor's part. But let's listen to a bit more. The person, okay, I'm sending paramedics and the police. Okay, who is the person that stabbed him? I don't know. We think if somebody with an intruder in the house, we've heard, it's trying to do it. Ma'am, calm down. 1509 Swan Street, North Western, not correct?

Yes, it is correct. The person that says, is it still in the home? I don't know. We got help in route, okay? Pardon me? We have help to enroll. Thank you. They are being around to you now, seeing the police and the pair of minutes, okay, so it sits.

Okay, what I need you to do is go downstairs, okay? The place, wherever he was stabbed that, I need you to get a dry cloth, okay? And just applied pressure to that area. If he was, wherever he would stab that on his body, and you take a child down since, while you're waiting for the pair of minutes to arrive, and just apply pressure. Even if the rag or towel is saturated with blood, just get another towel and put it on top but never lifted the first towel off the area.

Holding on. Once it gets filled, that was good, it's put another child on top of that. You just apply pressure until the paramedics are running. Yes. Yes. In the heart? In the heart? Okay. It's he breathing. It's breathing.

We have help and roll now, okay? You don't know who it was? Okay, is he breathing? Okay, we have help in the house. Okay, we have help and roll, ma'am, okay? We do have help and roll, okay? Just go down in and try to tell your husband or your other half to just try to keep them calm and talk to him, okay?

Keep them calm and talk to them to someone get there. And at the same time, get a dry cloth and just hold it right there in the area. My pregnant's holding there. Okay. bring it on in. Okay. And once it gets saturated with blood, then I'll get another one.

Go get another towel, then you can apply it on top of that one once it gets killed up with blood. We need you to apply pressure on that area. There's a plain touch really. Okay, just hold it in until the parameders get there. They should be putting up any moment if they're already enraught to your location. You don't know who did this.

We have no idea you did this. It's the door open so they can get in. We don't know how they got in. Okay, well, I'm asking you now. It's the door open so the pair of minutes can get in once they get finished. What? Sorry. What are you saying?

If the door open so they can get in. It's the door open until the parent-minute can get in the home. I'm going to go down... It's a private home or apartment. It's a home. It's a home. It's 1509 Swan Street, North West. The person had one of ours, right now.

The person that stabbed him ran out the door with a knife? I think... Okay, anybody get any type description of the person that came in the home? No. So, yeah, we have no description. So yeah, a lot of whee's. We think it's an intruder. Somebody in the house.

We heard a chime at the door. And then there's the towel. The operator is giving Victor a lot of detailed information about applying pressure to Robert's body with a towel and then replacing it as it gets saturated with blood. But at no point on the call, which is long, do we hear Victor passing on this information to Joe? We never hear him relay these things to Joe at all.

He just says that Joe is doing them. Even though Victor is supposedly on the third floor while Joe and Robert are down on the second. So how can he see that Joe is applying pressure to Robert's wounds with a towel? Also, if we jump ahead for a second, when the police arrive, the towel they found in the room barely has any blood on it at all. And when the paramedics arrive

and they find Joe in that room with Robert's body. He's not applying pressure to his wounds. He's just sat there. And then there's the moment of distraction too where Victor asks the operator, sorry, what were you saying? Which again, if he's upstairs alone, what's he distracted by?

Feels like someone might be there talking to him or signalling to him, and that's why Victor wasn't listening to the operator. It's like a really clear moment in that section of the call, where he is like not listening and you can tell he isn't listening because the operator is saying things to him and like is like are you there you listening and he's like sorry what were you saying and look you could say it's a stressful situation victor loses focus for a second what's the big deal sure but then it's what comes immediately after he snaps out of that moment of distraction

they are talking about how the paramedics are going to get into the house but the minute he comes out of that moment of distraction he suddenly offers up the statement the intruder has one of our knives So they're talking about how the paramedics are going to enter the house She's like, is it a flat? Is it a house? Blah, blah, blah. Are you there? He's like, sorry, what are you saying? The intruder has one of our knives. Again, I may be reading too much into this, but this very sudden shift of topic to talking about the knife after the moment of distraction kind of feels to me. And again, obviously, we are going to do this as humans. We're going to like put a story in place based on what we're hearing. And obviously, we don't have all the information. But it really feels like someone was there prompting. Victor to say something about the knife, to get it on record that the intruder has one of their knives. It just feels like such a random, inconsequential thing to say in that moment, because I don't know why it would be important to bring up at this point, because the account that all

three men later give is that Victor totally lost it when he saw Robert's body. And that's why Joe sends him upstairs to call 911, right? Because there's actually a phone in the room that Robert has been killed him, right? And there's mobiles. They have mobiles. It's 2006. But he doesn't do that. He sends him upstairs to their bedroom to call 911. And he says, the reason I did that is because Victor was so hysterical, right? The minute he saw Robert's body, he's hysterical. So how did Victor know that it was one of their knives by the time he was on the call to the operator? Because the story is, they go downstairs, they see Robert's body, Victor freaks out, Joe's like, go upstairs and call 911. How has he gathered that much information? The A, Robert's been

stabbed and B, it's one of their knives. This is going to become a really important point in this story moving forward, so please remember this. Because even if they had found their knife in that spare room with Robert, and also, let's say he's telling this bit about the knife because they think the intruder is still in the house and he's still got the knife in there, like he's got a knife, he's got one of our knives. Well, if they found their knife in Robert's room, which is the only way Victor would know that it was their knife, then surely the intruder doesn't have the knife anymore, so why mention it at all, let alone as being one of your knife? I don't know. Again, it's a plot point. It's one like bit of information that fits into the larger themes of this story. So it's important to remember even if right now it just feels like I'm nitpicking.

But I agree with you there. Like if it was just one, if it was just one of the many, then, you know, it would be negligible. Exactly. Anybody get any type of description of the person that came in home? No idea. We have no description. We hurt. We heard the chime and we heard the screen from our friends. Okay. And so we came running downstairs. We ran and...

So you both was upstairs and your friend was downstairs? Yes. You heard the door open and then you heard the screen. We didn't... I didn't hear the door open until after the train and then we ran down the stairs and we heard we have an alarm and so the chime went off. Okay. As the indoor, we really need the input.

Okay. They're in wrong now, ma'am. Go to the door. They should be putting up any moment, okay? I'm afraid to go on. The person who's down since is the person that was assaulted? No, we're on the second floor. Okay.

So somebody needs to go and open the door for the pair of minutes. You're not sure if that person's still in the home or not? I have no idea. Okay, we have paramedics in road, okay? What time is it? What time is it at the moment? Yes. 23, 54.

It's 11.54, ma'am. $154. Yes. I mean, I'll stand in line with you. I will stand in line with you. I will feel them like that somebody gets here. Well, hang up. We need them right now.

I'm not hanging out, but we need help now. Throughout this call, the story about the door chime, the scream, and Victor and Joe coming downstairs changes multiple times. First, Victor says, we heard the chime, then I heard the scream, and then we ran downstairs. The second time round, he says, we heard the scream, then I heard the chime, and we ran downstairs. And then finally, he says, we heard the scream,

we ran downstairs, and then we heard the chime. And I don't again think it's unimportant. It's not just him getting confused because that second time when he says, we heard the scream, then we heard the chime. He specifically says, I heard the scream before I heard the chime. But the first time he said, we heard the chime, then we heard the scream. Like, he can't keep his story straight. And again, stressful situation, sure.

But he's saying it with certainty, but he keeps saying it wrong. And like the order could be muddled at first from shock, perhaps. But if you remember the first time Victor talked about the intelligence, intruder at the very start of the call. He doesn't mention a scream at all. He just says, we think there was an intruder, someone in the house. We heard the chime of the back door. So why wouldn't you mention the scream then? The chime could have been anyone. It's not a weird sound here. It's in your house all the time. But the scream of your friend seems odd not to mention. They even have another lodger that lives in the house, like in the basement below, who comes and

goes and sets off the chime. So like the chime isn't like a bizarre thing. The scream is, but you don't mention the scream until nearly like halfway through the call. Again, weird. And then there's a statement he says, I'm afraid to go downstairs. Why? In fact, if this is genuinely playing out in which the men say that it did, right? They come downstairs, they find Robert stabbed. Why was Victor sent upstairs at all in the first place, right?

How do they know that it is safe upstairs? If I thought there could be someone, somewhere in my house, I wouldn't want to be alone. No. And I wouldn't want my loved one to be alone either. So it's not Scooby-Doo where you're like, let's split up. You go upstairs, I'll stay down. You don't even know that this person isn't still in your house. You've just found your friend is stabbed.

So why are they like, you go upstairs? According to them, according to Victor and Joe, they didn't see anyone fleeing from the house. They didn't even hear footsteps after they heard the scream. They're very like, we didn't hear any footsteps. so that for me is then how do you know that the person even left your house so why would you then corner yourself by going further into the house if this was me i'd want to get the fuck out that house i'd want to go way outside until the police and the paramedics got there or stayed together and tend to rob it this idea of

splitting up and you go upstairs even though we don't know what's going on upstairs that seems very bizarre if you don't already know who did this and therefore that there isn't a further threat. Again, just another little point worth mentioning. And so, yeah, I think it's during this call that I think Victor fucks up and he realizes that he's fucked up because the operator is pushing him. So you heard the chime, you heard the scream, you went downstairs, you heard the scream, you heard that, like, she's, she's confused by it. And I think that's when he realized he's messed up. And he suddenly says, what's the time? Now, maybe. as a lot of people like theorize with this case that it was to establish some sort of

timeline with the operator. But like for me I don't really see that because like the call time would be recorded anyway. And nine one one call the timings would be recorded. That's a good point. So for me it just feels like a way to distract. Like what's the best way to distract in a situation is by asking a random abrupt question about something else. Even those like weird little signs on the tube tell you if you see somebody in trouble ask them what time it is or ask like what the next stop it is because it can like break up a tense situation. And I kind of think that's what Victor's doing here. But again, maybe I'm thinking too much into it.

Let's listen to the next bit. Let me know when you hear the pair of minutes and you look out of the window and see you hear them coming. I'm looking out the window and I see nothing. I see nobody. It seems like for Apple, but they are in route, man. They're coming. Here they are.

Here they are. They're there. What's up? going downstairs. Okay. I'll stand the line with you to open a door for a pair of minutes, okay? Help us. We have sworn to stop throwing our second floor.

Ma'am? Ma'am? Nothing's really an emergency. I mean, he's crying. Ma'am, this will be okay. It will be okay. Okay, so this is the point at which the paramedics have arrived at the house. And I think there is a real shift in Victor at this point.

He now seems hysterical and sobbing like uncontrollably. But there's more distancing. He says to the paramedic, someone's been stabbed someone's been stabbed inside and then there's the talking to himself Victor you can hear him say what is this what is this

and that's not to somebody I think he's saying it to himself because I think it's after the paramedics have gone into the house and he's still on the phone and I genuinely think Victor is confused I don't think he understands what's happened and I'm going to put this out there

I don't think Victor was involved in the murder obviously we're going to get to theories like way later but I'm just going to put this out there now. And I think this like, what is this? What is this? Is a real question that Victor is asking himself. But what's interesting is he never asks that on the 911 call. He never says that.

Which seems weird to me because there's no confusion on the 911 call about what the fuck is happening. He's never like, what the fuck is going on? What is this? He asks out when he thinks he's alone by himself talking to himself. Because it's only at this point that you hear the confusion. And I wonder if it's because he's done his job. He was told to call 911.

He's called them. The authorities are now here and he can at least for now stop the immediate act. And you see that glimpse of the fear, the panic and the confusion breaking through in Victor. Paramedics arrived at the house at 1154. And we watched an interview with Jeff Baker, a veteran EMS worker who was the first responder on the scene.

And he says that when he got to the house, he was immediately met with an odd scene. standing outside the house in a white bathrobe was Victor Siborski. According to Baker, Victor was crying, which is what we heard, but wouldn't look at him. He just said, there's been a stabbing on the second floor, which we just heard. So Baker went inside, and as he walked up the stairs,

he saw another man also in a white bathrobe in the hallway at the top of the stairs. This man was Dylan Ward. And according to Baker, he asked Dylan what's going on. Dylan looked at him, didn't say a word, and just went into his bedroom, which is the first room when you come up the stairs. So he just goes in there, shuts the door. Yeah.

You're going to start feeling on edge. And that's exactly how Baker feels. And he notes how weird this whole situation is. but he turns, he's there to do a job and he walks down the hallway of the second floor and into the upper bedroom. And in that other bedroom he finds a third man,

Joe Price. Joe is in his underwear, just his boxes, sitting on the edge of the pull-out bed with his back to the door, not applying any pressure with a towel on Robert's wounds. Now, firstly, I'm sorry,

but you think an intruder broke into your house and stabbed your friend to death, but you're sat in your underwear with your back to the door of the room in which it happened. So pretty much in the most vulnerable position you could possibly be in. Does that make sense? Again, if you don't already think the threat has been neutralised because you actually know what happened. I'm trying to think what I would do. I'd sit outside on the front step waiting for the police to come as what I'd do. Exactly. You wouldn't sit with your back to the door No. In your underwear of the room in which there is a dead body of somebody who got stabbed in your house.

I might sit outside in my pants. That's fine. I just think, again, one point at her time. I get it. It's weird. In the fall of 1620, a battered merchant ship called the Mayflower set sail across the Atlantic. It carried 102 men, women and children, risking it all to start again in the new world. Hi, I'm Lindsay Graham.

of American history tellers. Every week, we take you through the moments that shaped America, and in our latest season, we explore the untold story of the Pilgrims, one that goes far beyond the familiar tale of the first Thanksgiving. After landing at Cape Cod, the Pilgrims forged an unlikely alliance with the Wopinag people who helped the pilgrims survive the most brutal winter they'd ever known, laying the foundation for a powerful national myth. But behind that story lies another, one of conflict, betrayal, and brutal violence against the very people who helped the Pilgrim survive. Follow American History Tellers on the Wondery app, or wherever you

get your podcasts. You can binge all episodes of American History Tellers The Mayflower, early, and ad-free right now on Wondery Plus. Oh, hello, hello. Scary story time. The joys of analog media. Be kind. Rewind.

Never mind. You're here for the special collection. Welcome to Radio Rental. The scariest stories you've ever heard in your life. All told by real people. Oh, and off we go. All I could see was the devil's mask he was wearing.

This wasn't a human being that I saw. There's something here in this house, something out of this world. There was a woman moving through the hall. I stepped back, and I was completely alive. alone in the hallway. Radio Rental is available now. Listen for free on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. So, Baker, who explains in the Peacock documentary, how he has been to countless crime scenes

in his long career as an EMS worker, said that something definitely felt off here. He said he was unnerved and the hairs on the back of his neck was. standing on end. Now again, obviously that is just anecdotal evidence from Baker, like you can take that with a grain of salt. I'm sure it kind of didn't help that Dylan Ward just sort of ignores him and goes into a room, but there's something there that's putting him off. So Baker walks into this room in which Joe Price is sat and saw that on the bed lay the body of a fourth man, Robert won. Robert was laying on the pull-out sofa bed like he was asleep, but in his chest were three stab wounds. bloody knife was on the bedside table. And Robert's clothes, watch, and wallets were all neatly

placed on a chair at the end of the bed. Joe Price told Baker, I heard a scream, so I came down and found this knife laying on his chest. Baker found it odd, given the three stab wounds to the chest, just how little blood there was at the scene. And he's not wrong, we've all seen crime photos before with just one stab wound that look like a bloodbath. But there's just so little blood here. There's nothing on the walls or on the ceiling. There's no cast off, no spray. Nothing on the floor.

Just a little bit on the bed sheets. It's a shockingly small amount of blood. On the towel, there's just like three sort of splotches on the bed sheet. And yeah, like TMI, but like I've had heavier periods that have leaked. Like, it's nothing compared to the injuries that Baker is being presented with. Baker also thought that the blood on Robert's midsection looked like it had been wiped. There were smears, like when you clean a window. He also noted that he thought Robert looked like he had been stabbed, showered, redressed, and then put back in the bed.

And it was strange to Baker, on top of all of this, that the three non-dead guys in the house were all either wearing white bathrobes or were just in their boxes. And all of them, according to him, looked like they had just showered, complete with wet hair. Now I guess, look, it wasn't that late. I think when you hear this story and like how bonkers it is, do you imagine it's happening like one in the morning? No, it's like they call the ambulance at 1149 and they're there before midnight. within six minutes. So, like, it's really not that late. And the three men did all later say that they had worked out that evening

and they'd had showers before they went to bed. Now, some people argue, well, it was a very hot August night. If that was really true that they had show up before they went to bed and they'd all been asleep just before they called 911, like how long would your hair still be wet? But I'm sure, you know, it's America. They have aircon. I don't know.

I don't know. I'm not like... No, I'm not hanging anything that much on that. No, no. Sure. Now the reason people obviously bring this up is because some people speculate that the freshly showered look of the men plus the total lack of blood at the scene indicates a cleaner. We are going to come on to this in a big way next week. For now, all I will say is that no one, not the paramedics, not the police, nobody who was in that house ever reported the house smelling like bleach or cleaning products. So that's also not unimportant to note. But again, like I said, we'll come back to that next week.

For now, we're going to stay on the scene. Baker checked Robert's body over and although he was certain that Robert was indeed dead, he did make the call to take Robert to George Washington University Hospital. In the ambulance, the paramedics made some life-saving attempts, but Robert was officially pronounced dead on arrival. Kathy Wohne, Robert's wife, received a call shortly after midnight from Joe Price, telling her that Robert had been stabbed and that she needed to get to the hospital as soon as she could.

It was only once Kathy arrived that she learned her husband was dead. In hindsight, Baker does say that he wishes he'd left Robert in the bed because moving him definitely disrupted potential evidence. And as we'll all go on to see, the life-saving attempts also interfered with possible explanations for what happened to Robert that night. Meanwhile, Joe Price, Victor Zaborski and Dylan Ward were all taken down to the violent crimes branch to be interviewed. And I think the police felt pretty confident quite early on that they were dealing with suspects here and not witnesses. So let's now listen to a few clips from the initial interview with Joe.

They are interviewed multiple times, by the way. So if you just Google like Joe Price police interviews, there are so many that come up. This is the first time that he is questioned. And it is remarkable to see his demeanor and the story change throughout each of the retellings. For your fingerprinting that knife, I mean, somebody jumped our fence and went through that door. You used to tell you what I know. We have an alarm system. The alarm was on, on, but it has a function where the doors chime.

you open the doors, whether they go wrong or not. After Robert was there, we had drinks around the, you know, sink. Went upstairs, we showed Robert where the shower was, what the bathroom was, right down the home. Here's your bed. We already made out the pull-out bed for him. We said good night. He said he was going to take a shower before then. He was all sticky.

I went upstairs. We've been, like I saw the last five minutes of the show. and then started watching the first 10 minutes of like some other thing on Spike TV, and I knew Victor was getting annoyed that I wasn't turning off the TV, so I'd turn it off and he went to sleep. The next thing

that I know, I hear the chime. It's two beeps, BEEP. You don't know what happened until you heard the chime. Right. I don't know what happened until I hear the chime. So you wasn't sleep, you know. I wasn't asleep, but it waits me up. There are two control units. There was a lot of time right there in your bedroom. the S-1's down in the first door.

So I hear that. It doesn't concern me. It waits me yet, but I hear it. And I think, oh, Sarah came home. Sarah's our tenant. She looks down in the basement. She had said to us, I'm going to go to Tommy Johnson.

I might come back. I might not. She occasionally does that they have a guest room. She just crashed there. I thought she came home. No problem. She's very heavy. She doesn't come upstairs.

I wasn't worried like, oh, she's going to come find Robert and have a cow or anything. She'd just come in and go downstairs. I don't know how well. it was from when I heard the chime. It was not long enough for me to go back to sleep. And I hear what is, you know, it was yelling, but it wasn't,

it was just like grunts or something. But you don't know how long it was. I don't know how long it was. But it was not, I didn't fall back to sleep, but I was still awake when I heard it. And it was pretty close in time to right after I hear the chime. So Victor and I both jump out of bed, we run downstairs. stairs. There's, you know, the stairs end at the door. You know, I see the doors open. I see

Robert is laying there. The bed cover is pulled back. He's lying there. There is blood on him. His hand was out like, one arm was out like this and one arm was like this, I think, or somewhere across his body. And there was a knife. I believe it was laying on him, like on his stomach or something like that. I picked up the knife, I moved it, I lifted up his shirt, and I could see, clearly see, there was one, you know,

puncture wound right on his belly. I lifted up his shirt a little more. There was a lot of blood on his chest. Before I touched Robert, Victor became very hysterical, and I yelled at him to go call 911. You know, just go do that. He ran upstairs.

He got the phone. He came back down or whatever. He was on the phone with him. He handed me a tell. They were telling him to apply pressure. We were doing that. I was yelling at him about telling him, you know, we need an ambulance right now. We need an ambulance right now.

And, you know, eventually the ambulance got there. The big guys came up. They got Robert. Put him on a stretcher and, you know, the police were right after them, basically. At some point, we went downstairs. I think we were told we had to go downstairs. When I got downstairs, Dylan or somebody might have been one of the officers said,

oh, I think it was Dylan, that the back door was open, you know, or jar unlocked, whatever. And I looked at it right then, and, in fact, the door was, you know, a little open. It wasn't completely close, but it was close. That's it. Okay.

When you came downstairs, you came by yourself? Yeah, Victor and I ran down the stairs together. And then what did you see? The door was there, it was open. There was Robert laying on the bed. The cover was pulled back. Were he still? He was in his room.

I saw him, you know, I don't know, in this time frame, come out of his room. He, you know, I don't think he heard the chime. I don't know. But I don't. I saw him come out of the room. He was putting on a bath for when he came out. I don't like Joe.

No. I don't like Joe. He's definitely a type A type of person. Alpha, loud, confident. Gratingly obnoxious would be my descriptor. But even if we put all of that to one side, the whole interview is weird anyway. He absolutely is trying his very best to maintain control, but he's also fidgety and comes across quite wired.

And of course, being interviewed by the police is scary for anybody, but what struck me the most is that Joe doesn't really seem that curious about who could have done this, who could have broken into his house and killed one of his oldest friends. He's not bothered at all about what police are doing to find out who actually did this. I think it's so obvious from, even the way he's sitting, he's like, I'm not scared. Like, that's kind of like the vibe I got from it out the gate. Like, I'm not afraid. I'm not worried. No.

I feel like, it feels high octane. Like, I feel like this has happened and he's like, right. But he's confident that he can talk his way out of this. And he just talks and talks and talks and talks and talks. And he's very like, he's trying his best to be very disarming. Unfortunately for him, his story doesn't actually make that much sense. He talks about the chime of the back door and the grunting, and then the chime again, but he never heard any footsteps going up or down the stairs.

Everyone who went through that house during the investigation agreed that it was an old house with wooden stairs that are old and creaky. So how could it be that Joe was woken up by the first door chime, didn't hear any footsteps, but heard some soft grunting from the floor below, and then heard the chime go again, but still no footsteps before the second chime could the intruder have levitated up and down the staircase like we all did when we were children?

I know we all remember. But it is strange. If you're going to lie about hearing door chimes, why wouldn't you just lie about footsteps as well? I don't know. I don't know. Maybe to keep the timelines fuzzy but then the second chime of the door going off is then suggesting that the person

was leaving. So I don't know. I don't know. It's weird. But I think more than that, what is weird to me is the behavior that Joe himself confesses to in this clip that we just had. And it's the stuff about Dylan. Because Joe just says that Dylan was in his room. And then at some point during that situation, after they found Robert stabbed and near death or already dead, that Dylan came out of his room putting a robe on. So basically what he was, he's saying is that he heard some noise downstairs that was scary enough to make him and Victor run downstairs. They come downstairs. They don't see anybody fleeing. They find Robert stabbed, but they don't go check on Dylan whose room is just down the hall.

They never knock on his door. They're never like, Dylan, get the fuck up. Robert's been stabbed or are you okay? Like, there's none of that. They just wait with him. Robert, they send Victor upstairs, and they just wait for Dylan to come out of his room, putting his robe on because he's been woken up by the noise that they're now making. I don't get that. Why would you just wait for Dylan to make an appearance? Really? What if Dylan was being attacked in his room by this same person who's now gone in there and shut the door? You're not going to check? Again, it comes back to, for me, a consciousness of guilt, right? It comes back to the fact that you know that the threat has already been dealt with

because you know who did it. Otherwise, why are you not checking on Dylan? Yeah. It doesn't make any sense. So, yeah, next clip. I know you guys have to figure out everything out about, you know, Barbara's one of my oldest friends. I went to his wedding, you know,

he was a freshman in college when I was a senior. His parents were on my college tour, you know. Is he homosexual? No, not gay, never has been, didn't think about it, you know. no drugs, no booze, nothing. Robert was like the best, you know, absolutely straight A, you know,

no-nonsense guy, I ever met. But he didn't. Where was his wife all this time? What do you mean? Well, she wasn't, she didn't come over with him. No, no, she was at home. I saw his wife recently. I saw her, like, on Monday, she got a new job herself.

She just had, like, hip replacement surgery. and she got a new job working right across the street from me, so we, we, she, Robert, and I actually all tried to go to lunch together last week, and Robert couldn't do her, but Kathy and I went. And, you know, like I said, I know Victor and Dill, like better than I know my mother. There's no chance on the face of this sort that either one of them could, you know, punch someone, never. mind, you know, kill someone. It's ridiculous. Firstly here with this clip for me is like all of the unnecessary extra information about Kathy, who's Robert's wife, like telling the police that he and Kathy had gone for lunch, that she's got a new job, that she's just had surgery. Sorry, Robert's just been killed. What's that got to do with anything? And I get it. Like, people do fear-based babbling. Like,

that can happen. But what's very odd to me, beyond that, if you want to ignore the whole Kathy thing, what's very, very odd to me is just how certain Joe is that Victor and Dylan must be innocent. He says in that clip that we just heard, I know them both better than I know my own mother. What? What a fucking weird thing to say? Like, okay, with Victor, okay, right? like he is Joe's husband for all intents and purposes right they call each other husband and husband gay marriage hasn't been legalized yet but they see themselves as husband and husband right and they were in bed together and they came downstairs together according to their story to find Robert so yes I could understand somebody saying I know my husband didn't do this I was with him he was with me in bed all night we came downstairs and we found Robert together so I know Victor didn't do it but how and why is Joe so

sure that Dylan had nothing to do with Robert's murder. Because neither Joe nor Victor, according to their own stories, can testify as to Dylan's movements that night after they all went to bed at 1045. I don't think I'd be able to ever look myself in the face again if there was a stabbing inside my house and I don't wake my housemate up. Even if I've just met them. Yeah. I'm sorry.

Even if you were in a fucking hostel. Yes, absolutely. And you came downstairs and you happened to come across somebody who's been stabbed to death then there's a room next door. You're not going to be like, raise the fucking alarm. It should be like, I'll just sit here until the police get here. I'm sure you're all fine. But actually, when it comes to Dylan's movements or innocence,

how can either of them be so sure about any of it? Because he's just their lodger. No, he isn't. There's a lot of stuff going on in that house and now has come the time to explore the quite complicated dynamic. If you have a look at this case at all, you will see the three men, Joe, Victor and Dylan described as a thruple. That's not quite right. They were trying to make it

into something sort of resembling that. They did call themselves a family. But at the time of the murders, it was much less a three-way relationship and more two-way relationships happening in the same roof. Which sounds horrendous. But both. of these relationships, surprise, surprise, have Joe Price at the centre. So that's Joe and Victor, and then then separately. But not actually that separate, they're in the same house. Joe and Dylan. Yeah.

So it seems that Joe and Victor, who at the time of the murder had been together for six years, it appears that they had a traditional relationship. As Thru said, they referred to each other as husband and husband, and they had even fathered a child each with a lesbian couple that they were friends with, and they were very involved in those kids' lives. And this seems to have been the life. that Victor wanted. And while Joe may have been a top hot shot lawyer

and definitely the alpha in the relationship, Victor's not an idiot. At the time, he worked in marketing for the International Dairy Foods Association and had actually been the point person on the Got Milk campaign. It all comes back to Tyra in the end. That's what we're learning.

I know. I know. She rules us all. Truly. But yeah, so they've got a very specific type of relationship. Joe and Victor. But Joe wanted something more on top of this successful family man lifestyle. His four-year relationship with Dylan seems to have been far more sexually motivated. And Dylan, he's a bit of a mystery.

To be honest, I really did my best to, like, dig into his life. And this is all I really could find out. Dylan Ward grew up the son of a very successful cardiologist. He went to Georgetown School of Foreign School. service, but dropped out. He then got a degree in children's literature from Simmons University, but after graduating, Dylan just flitted from job to job. He worked for a while at a publishing house in Asia, but that didn't work out. Then he decided he was going to be a chef and he enrolled at the Culinary Institute of America, but then that didn't work out. And then

he went travelling to Thailand, as everyone does, and became interested in alternative therapies. And Dylan had just started working as a masseuse around the time of the murder, though I have seen many reports that masseuse was just code for escort. And that's very possibly true. Dylan and Joe's relationship was one that does appear to have centred on BDSM. Joe was the submissive and Dylan the dominant. That's not massively surprising. Generally speaking, it is typically people who are large and in charge and their everyday lives who like to be dominated in these BDSM type situations. When the police

searched Dillon's room, it was full of all sorts of wild sexual equipment. Ball gags, cages, heavy-duty restraints, giant dildos, limb spreaders, whips, electric shock machines, all of it. And it really is. There's pictures.

It's a lot. Hundreds. Yeah. It's not just like a little fun box with some fluffy handcuffs in. No. It's like full on. And it's possible that Victor was not into any of that at all. So Joe convinced him to let him have a live in fuck buddy.

That's basically what I think it was. Stranger things have happened. Yeah. I think they're like, look, we're happy, we're in a relationship, we're basically married, we got these kids, and they do a lot of advocacy work, which we'll come on to talk about. But like, Joe's like, there's something else I need. And wouldn't you rather me just have a man in the house that you know. know and you can see and maybe you'll even get involved sometimes. But I'll just have one man

who lives here and who services me a house boy in that situation. Very, very important part of this story I think. And look, with this whole thruple slash two people relationship, whatever's going on in this house,

it's not for me. It sounds fucking horrible. If you can make that kind of thing work then go for it, but I do not believe for a second that there was not huge amounts of tension in that house. 100%. Lots of slamming doors. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Even in that clip that we heard of Joe, you hear him say, I was watching TV and Victor was getting annoyed with me for not turning it off.

I think it's just, it's, I know it just feels like one small thing, but I think Victor was pissed that night. And again, we'll come back to that next week. But yes, this dynamic between Joe, Dylan and Victor is absolutely, in my opinion, crucial to this case. So the scenario you're telling is a burglar. comes in the house for the sole purpose of coming upstairs and stabbing a person who spent

one, you know, a half an hour in your house. No, I don't think they knew anybody was there. All I can imagine, I mean, this is the worst thing that has ever happened to me. I've never been bugged. My house has ever broken into. My car was broken into. First of all, your house wasn't broken into. It still hadn't been broken into. I understand what you guys have come up from. this but someone came in our house took that knife you know they came through the back door how you know I heard the chime the front door in the house was

definitely locked and and then did you hear the chime when he went out I did not hear no Victor told me that he believes he heard the chime again I didn't hear it and then this person they then what they do jumped the fence yeah and I was sitting in the living room saying to don't like why in and how would you jump the fence Why wouldn't the person going out the back door go through the gate? Amen. Good thinking. Because I didn't get to go out there, but, you know, the gate was...

Okay. There's just, honestly, there's hours and hours of interview footage that I have watched and listen to, and it is a treasure trove of just bizarreness. And I get it. You could listen to innocent people talking for hours and find weirdness. But, like, some of this is just so telling. I love that the police are, you know, they do a terrible job for a lot of this investigation, but I think the initial detectives are asking all the right questions.

And again, here, when he says, I didn't hear the chime of the door go again. Victor told me he heard it. Again then, why you send him Victor, your beloved husband, up to make a call from your bedroom? Why are you splitting up from him if you didn't even hear the person leave the house? But that aside, I love the bit where Joe's like, that's what I said to Dylan when we were sat in the living room. I was like, why in the hell would the person jump out of the back? Why wouldn't they go out the front door? And again, I know I'm coming at this from my bias,

but it feels a lot like a conversation they were trying to have to get their story straight. Like, they're like, how are we going to say this person got out? And they're like, we'll say we got out the back because we can't say he went out of the front. For various reasons, maybe they're CCTV. Again, it's not that late. Maybe they're worried somebody would have seen somebody fleeing. So, like, we'll say he went out the back. And as we'll go on to talk about getting into and out of the back garden of this house seems very difficult.

But there's like, that's what I was saying to Dylan. How could somebody have done that? Why would somebody have done that? It feels like that's an argument they were having when they were trying to put this story together. Sounds like me, Joe and Chris yesterday being like, okay, but who did it and why and how did they get away with it? Exactly. Exactly. And they're just like, let's keep it as simple as possible.

Chime, scream, chime in some, you know, combination of things. But let's not overcomplicate the story. But I am making a musical stage. Do you know the key to your door unlocked? Occasionally leave the back door unlocked. Not on purpose, but because we just forget to lock it. We grill out there, you know, four nights out of five. We grilled out there tonight.

You know, the grill is literally out the back door. I mean, you know, it's like three feet away from the door. So, you know, it is completely plausible that the door was unlocked. How did you know the door was somewhere? Well, like I said, when I came downstairs, Dylan or somebody else pointed out to me, oh, you know, the door was unlocked or whatever when they got down there. Seeing out to this deed has been done. You guys see the doors unlocked, so maybe somebody had a key?

That's possible. I mean, there were, I mean, other than us in our tenants there are, there's a few contractors that have keys, that's like. What he doesn't mention there is that his brother also has a key. But again, we will come back to that next week. Do you know the gentleman to check the door for you right there? Sometimes I do. Sometimes I don't. I mean, I don't remember doing that tonight.

And in fact, while Dylan and Robert and I were talking around the sink, standing in the kitchen, I was looking out the back doors. glass and it was two big glass panels and I looked down and there's a there's a light in one of the tree boxes that would weather in both and I could say something like crawling around on top of it it looked to me like a big bug anyway I walked outside and looked at it and came back in that was tonight around the town was there 1040 something I mean it was after Robert got there before we went upstairs and I don't I can't tell you did I turn and lock the thing I don't You know.

You go to the area. It's a high crime grade on the burglings, right? No. You have gone? No. No. It's, I mean, you know, we know some of our neighbors, you know, I think of it as a very safe place. You know, the one thing we ever worried about was the guy living in the van behind the house.

We called the police about that, because we saw the guy getting in the van, and we thought, someone's breaking into the van. And the cops came, and they said, uh, no, they talked to some people. talk to some people, they came over, they said, actually, a guy has permission or something to live there. Yeah, he does. So, that's what, that was the one and only time I ever felt unsafe. I mean, you know, the back, the alley is very well, uh, lit, you know, the, you know, the people not directly across whether, across the way. I mean, you know, if you drive back there, it's all, it's, you know, there's Mercedes, Mercedes, I mean, you know, people, like us, we spent a million, too, on the house.

But you said, you said you feel unsafe, so. No, I didn't say that. The only time was because when you saw this guy go on. Yeah, breaking in the van. Yeah. I thought, oh, that's, you know, suspicious. Actually, our tenant, Sarah was the one who insisted I called the cops. Because she actually saw the guy, you know, and she was all, like, we'd out.

We better call. What time did you set the alarm for tonight? We didn't put the alarm on. We don't, generally, we don't put it on a night when we're home. We don't turn it on. You know, when we leave the house, we usually turn it on. Truth be told, we won't even... When Sarah comes home, if it's on, she comes in and disarms it?

It's how it works? Yeah, she knows the code. Yes. So she be able to tell us about coming in, whether it's on or not, and that kind of stuff? Yes. Yeah. Yeah, so she actually, like, you know, at some point...

I don't know what... What's that? Does she put it on when she comes in? Now when she comes in Anytime any of us leave the house, we usually put it on. Although we weren't doing that for probably the first six to eight months we lived there.

I mean, we had the system that was installed when we got, you know, we bought the house. But she again, she knows she is a little, I think, more paranoid or whatever. So, you know, she said at some point to me or to Victor, you know, oh, you know, we should start using the alarm, you know, when we come and go.

So now we do. But never at night. Never, ever since we've looked there, we've never put the alarm on at night. I know it may sound completely stupid. I looked on Capitol Hill on Constitution on 11th for five years and eight, you know, quote-unquote fringe neighborhood, you know, nothing ever happened. It was safe. It was fine.

I can show you murders with them. I can throw a rock from 11th in Constitution to several bodies. I'm just the oblivious stupid, you know, guy living in Washington. This one doesn't really wait. A whole ton of sense. There's a lot of rambling with regards to the alarm. He lives in the city. It's a nice house and like fine and sure people buy alarms and they don't bother setting them.

But you don't worry at all about safety. He says repeatedly in the interview, he was like, oh, nothing bad to ever happen to me. I never, I never worry about safety. I'm like, Frank, you never, but you've got a little unit that chimes in your bedroom when the back door opens. But you don't care at all about safety. I don't. To not even check that your door's locked. Like, oh, yeah, now we like, the door might have been open.

Sometimes we just leave the door open. Okay, okay, Joe. He also tries to brush it all off and just say, like, oh, I guess I'm just stupid. Which I just don't believe is a word he's ever used to describe himself before. Again, a disarming attempt to present himself as a bit naive, possibly. and it's kind of like a, it's just a universal response, isn't it? Don't have to explain myself if I'm an idiot, do I? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And then there's the bit about the spider that we just heard. So he's basically saying, oh yeah, we were all standing around. We were having a drink of water when Robert came into the house. We're standing in the kitchen and I saw this giant spider at the back of the window, like in the back garden and I just went to investigate. So it doesn't say it, but it's basically an explanation of why the door could have been left unlocked because he just went out there to look at the spider and may have left the door unlocked. I'm just like, you saw a spider at 10.40pm in your garden

and you just had to go take a look at it. Why? Like, it's such a weird thing to say. And maybe it'll be like, it's so weird, it could just be true. But no, I think it's just to provide a weird, semi-reasonable explanation for why the door was unlocked. My sister was telling me last night that her friend of hers just moved house. There's a massive spider's nest outside the front door. and the spiders are so big

they set off the ring doorbell the ring doorbell thinks they are people they are so massive that's diabolical and look maybe much like your sister's unfortunate friend there was a giant spider out there because actually

when the police got there there were cobwebs all over the top of the very tall fences in the back garden these fences in the back garden of this house we're talking seven foot seven foot tall and the tops of them covered in pollen and cobwebs, right?

Which is very strange if a person climbed into... It's all getting very John Bonnet Ramsey, isn't it? Exactly. Climmed into your garden over these fences and then climbed back out over the fences without disturbing these cobwebs and this pollen. And again, you could say standalone piece of information doesn't mean much.

But I feel like it's all adding up. I think it's also very much worth mentioning the fact that none of the neighbours saw or heard anything, even though, again, it wasn't that late. Nor did they see anybody fleeing out the back across their gardens. Remember, this house is a mid-terriss. So where else is this person going to go? There is an alley behind the house, but there's a garage first. So this person would have had to jump onto the roof of the garage and then fall into the alley if they didn't go through other people's gardens. Like, a mid-terriss is like one of the safest places you can be.

Like, how is somebody getting in and out with none of the neighbours seeing anything? Very unusual. There was also no disturbance to the soil in the planting beds around the fence of the men's garden, which again, if somebody has landed in that bed, which presumably you would do if you dropped over a fence, how is none of the soil getting disturbed? Very strange, right? So all this, rightly, I think made it very hard for the police

to believe that an intruder had come into the house that night. Well, nobody broke in that house tonight. There's no evidence of everybody breaking in that house tonight. Somebody came, huh? Well, we also talked to some of your neighbors. Mm-hmm. And some of the neighbors just happened to be out. Mm-hmm.

Nobody saw anybody come back there and nobody saw anybody I mean, you know, if there was any other possibility, you know, I'd be right there with you guys saying, okay, maybe this happened, or maybe that happened. But, you know, there were the three of us in there. You know, like I said, I know Victor and Dillon better, but I know my mom, there is no chance on the face of the earth anybody did anything to Robert. I mean, that is not the answer. You're saying that you know what? How will do we know real? I would say they would tell you the same.

You sure? I would say so, yeah. Yeah. I mean, you can ask them, but I mean, yeah. What time did you discover this about it? I'm not exactly sure what time, but I know that I turned the TV off around 11.05, 11 times, something like that. And when we were on the phone with line 1-1, um, I, Victor asked them what time it was, and the person said, you know, told him it was 11-43.

So, you know, maybe 11-40, I don't know, 11-35, something like that. And they told you to put your compressions on this? They told Victor Badding Yeah, they said applied pressure And, you know, I don't know If they told me to check for a pulse Or I was checking for impulse But I was looking for a pulse

And you moved the night I didn't move it Nobody else Nobody else You said that Let me go back to this time Remember, because you got me The feelings

You said that You found the body at what time? I went to sleep at 11 or 511 I turned off the TV at 11 I was asleep shortly thereafter. Okay. And we were on the phone with line 1-1,

already applying pressure, you know, at 1143. So somewhere in that period, you know, five minutes maybe before. I mean, as soon as I saw Robert, you know, and could stop Victor from screaming, I, you know, I told him to one up and call 911. So it was minutes within... Right when you sold it by.

Yes. How many minutes gone without you before that? not even one. If it was one, it was one, I mean, as soon as I saw it, and I grabbed, you know, Victor who was literally hysterical and said, go call 911 and he ran upstairs. And Victor told you that the person that he was talking to in the 911 call, so it was like, you know, before the third. Yeah, yeah.

I mean, he asked them, what time is it? And, you know, I was yelling, you know, we need any of us. Now, yes, I believe he asked them to say what time, you know, to tell him what time it was. And this bit brings us back to the 911 call. How does Joe know, because that's what we just heard, how does Joe know that Victor asked the operator what time it was? He says, Victor asked the operator what time it was and this is what the operator said. They were supposedly on different floors.

Victor was supposedly on the third floor. Joe was supposedly on the fucking second floor. How does he know? Let's say they spoke about it afterwards, right? Some point between the paramedics arriving and them getting carted down to the police station, they have a conversation about the 911 call. If they had spoken about it,

why would Victor tell Joe? I asked them what time it was and this is what they said. Why would that be a conversation that you're having? It really feels to me like Joe wasn't with Robert that he was standing next to Victor telling him what to say. why would that be a conversation you would have? It was such a pointless bit of the 911 call but now Victor is apparently thinking it's so important

he told Joe, I don't get it. And look, it's all just weird but it really, really feels to me like Joe was in the room with Victor and he was telling him what to say and that's why Victor gets distracted at certain points but it's being orchestrated. When you came downstairs

What's your downsteering? The grunting, yelling, whatever, yeah. The what? The what? It wasn't, you know, it wasn't like someone said, hey, what are you doing here, or anything like that. There weren't words. What I heard was, like, noises.

But it definitely did not sound. You got to confuse, but again. Because I clearly asked you earlier, did you hear anything else? Did you hear anybody? screen, you said it was absolutely quiet. You know, you said right after the chime. There was a period of time

after the chime. When I was lying there, I didn't hear anything. I heard the chime. I said, I thought, oh, Sarah's come home. Rolled back over, you know. And laying to go back to sleep. I wasn't aloken again. I never went back to sleep. The time period was that close. I mean, it was

I don't know if it was 30 seconds, a minute, whatever, but I didn't go back to sleep. I heard the disturbance, and we both jumped up. Victor heard it, too. I mean, it wasn't the kind of thing you're near as your house, and you'd all go down and look. So at what point did Vick would wake up, because you didn't sleep? I may have looking him up. I don't know. I mean.

No, you may. You even know what you didn't. It ain't right. No, I don't know. I don't remember. See, your story is starting to bother me, because first you told my partner that you was waiting the first time by the shame and then he was wakening again

by you may have thought that he went in and may have thought that he went out you see you didn't hear any noise now you asked me if I was if I heard the chime I said yes then it was quiet it was quiet I didn't hear anything right out of the line now you're saying that you hear a grump in noise

after the period of silence I hear the chime there's a period of silence there's grunting something what's got to know describe it They're like, uh, something like that.

Loud, several of them, and we run downstairs. Who went downstairs? Me and Victor. And did Victor hear this? Yeah, I'm sure when you guys talked to him, he told you we did. No, I'm asking you, did he hear this? I assume that he did, yes. So what conversation did you and him have after hearing that noise?

We didn't have any. We just got up and we ran downstairs. I mean, this is all like that. So you didn't say what's going on? Is that somebody in trouble? No. Did you yell out for anybody at all? Did you say, hey, Rob, you okay?

I may have said Robert when I ran down the stairs, but yeah, it was instantaneous. We jumped out of bed, we ran down the stairs. After you heard the first Sean, I think you heard that noise, how many minutes or seconds gone by I don't know. And all I can tell you is I didn't fall back to sleep.

It was close in time. So you say seconds earlier. And then... It might have been a second. I said a minute or two minutes, I don't know. Well, let me just say this. You hear the grunting, and now you're instantly running down the stairs virtually, right? Yeah.

But no one else is in your house at that point? We don't know. We don't know. You'll see on the 911 tape. Victor didn't even want to go downstairs. downstairs because he onto the first floor because he was afraid the person was still in our house okay but as you're running down the stairs is your theory that he's running down the other stairs this person is no no i i don't know what's going on i you know it's not even asking no i don't

know it's i don't believe at that point it is not even in the realm of possible that anything has happened to robert all i know is i heard some noise but really something did so what i'm asking you is where this guy go i believe you ran out of of the house. Between the grunting and you running down the stairs, which happens like. Yeah. Wow, that's fast.

I agree with you. Look, it's a crazy, I mean, why didn't he, why wasn't the back door wide open? Why wasn't the gate wide open? Why didn't he go out the front door? Yeah, but you would think that you were running to this guy, and you would see this guy running. Yeah, maybe.

Because you said seconds. Yeah. I mean, it really was. That meant in seconds. Yeah. I think that's right. And you didn't get anybody running down the stairs or anything. Mm.

I didn't. So what makes you think it's a better, or if you didn't hear anybody, right? Because he knows it as hard. Couldn't be. You know, I- Generally, couldn't be Dylan. I know, it's, you guys don't know it's from Adam, so who knows. You know, we could all be crazy as longs.

But, you know, all I can tell you is it wasn't one of them. It wasn't me. We have no reason on earth to do this. I mean, I know Robert's whole family. I mean. So detectives are just putting the pressure on, really, aren't they? And pointing out all of the problems with the story. First off, Victor and Joe ran instantaneously down the stairs upon hearing the grunt.

Why would they do that? Why would you do that? And it screams to me, like, of the Oscar Fistorius case, right? Where he's like, I heard some noises in the bathroom. I didn't even look at where the Reaver was in bed with me or not. I just got up, got my gun and started shooting. I've lived in a lot of househares in my time If I hear grunting

I ain't looking I ain't knocking I'm ignoring This is what I mean Victor says it's And taking the piss out of them in the morning Right Victor says it was a scream

Joe only ever says it's grunting Right Why would grunting Make you think You need to sit up You don't say a word They say Did your partner Victor hear

These sounds of words I don't know We didn't speak about it We just immediately got up And ran downstairs Why If something strange happens, the first thing you would say to the person you're with is, did you hear that? What's that?

What? What's going on? And then you would go together. Just immediately get up and run downstairs because you heard some grunting. Why? That's strange. Is it not? I don't get it. And he says himself that at that point, it didn't even cross his mind that something could have happened to Robert.

But they ran downstairs. And saw nobody. Saw nobody. even though he says it was instantaneous on hearing the grunting. He ran downstairs, but they didn't see... How did this ninja get out of this house? And it does have to be said that during this particular interview, exchange, Joe looked absolutely exhausted.

Yeah, he does. Now, after this interview, Joe was told that he could go home. The police weren't ready to charge them yet, and he was told he could leave. But he didn't. Joe went outside with Dylan, Victor and a friend of theirs who had come to the station to help out. They all got into a car and had a little chat.

And after this chat, Joe still didn't go home. He came back into the police station and asked to speak to the lead detective. He now claimed that he might have made a mistake, saying that he initially told them that when he found Robert, the knife had been on top of Robert's chest. But now he's saying that actually made him, Maybe the knife had been in Robert's chest and he had pulled it out. That's quite a big difference.

Massive difference. And why would that be the part of the story you decide to change? Maybe it's because during this little Mercedes meeting, Victor told Joe that he had confused the story. Yeah, let's have a little listen to a clip of Victor's police interview. Did you tell him to leave us to help? I don't remember. I probably did because I definitely, at that time, I'd been in the room and seen him, so I probably did say he was stabbed. Did you see the knife?

I'm confused now, because I think I saw the knife the first time I came down the steps, but I really looked so quickly and was hysterical that I don't know whether I did or not. I thought I saw a black handle, and I thought I saw it. And see, when I was telling one of the other detectives, I was, I remember he had, I thought I saw one hand on his stomach, and then I remember he had, this one hand was like weird because it was like standing up and sort of twisted. And so I thought I saw the handle of the knife resting against him. But when I first told the police officers, or told the detectives here, I told him that he was holding the stomach. So I don't, I don't really know. I can't, I mean, I know he wasn't

holding a stomach with both him because I vividly remember now the hand because it was so awkwardly positioned. Yeah, like, this is Victor in a whole load of confusion, right? Because he's spoken to a police officer like at the scene or before getting into this interview room and he said one thing, now he's saying something else. And this detective is very much aware, even though he hasn't heard the 911 uncle yet, but is already questioning something quite important to this story, I think, which is what we mentioned already. Coming back to the 911 uncle, how did Victor know that it was their knife that early on? He says himself there. I was so hysterical. I wasn't even sure if I had seen a knife. He says in this police interview, I literally

says, I wasn't even sure when I knew Robert had been stabbed. But he told the operator, which was a call supposedly made immediately after they found Robert, because Victor was so hysterical, Joe sends him upstairs to make that call immediately. He repeatedly says that night to the operator, Robert has been stabbed and the intruder has one of our knives. But now he says, I don't even know when I knew. It's so weird. It's so weird. It really speaks to there being a longer time, the past, between whatever happened to Robert and that 911 call being placed. So this detective, like I said, hasn't heard the 911 call yet. So doesn't know about this discrepancy, but is already challenging Victor on how he was able to ascertain that much information about what had happened to Robert before the 911 call was made.

Especially given how hysterical Joe said Victor was and how quickly they claimed to have made the call and the fact that Victor says he wasn't even on the same floor as them. So it's not like he's looking at Robert learning more information as he's looking at him. And Victor has definitely, I think, caused a big problem here for the group with this confusion, telling the first police officers that he spoke to that he had seen the knife in Robert's stomach, but now saying that maybe it was leaning against his stomach or his side. It's created confusion because it doesn't match up with what Joe said. If you're feeling generous, which I'm not, you could explain a way Joe coming back in to change the story as him just wanting to be straight up with the police.

but it's more likely I think that Victor fucked up by saying what he did or they hadn't agreed as a group on what they were going to say about where the knife had been laid so their stories didn't match up and they realised that later on. I just don't really believe that Joe just forgot or was confused. He doesn't strike me as that kind of person. And it bears repeating there is a big difference between finding a knife in your friend, pulling it out of your friend and it lying on top of them

those are enormously different scenarios that you would probably remember especially if you pulled a knife out of your friend kind of a core memory exactly you'd hope so wouldn't you now a lot of people get very angry with the police having allowed the men to have this weird little Mercedes chat and look the police like I said

they make a lot of fucking terrible terrible mistakes in this case and that's why no one has ever been prosecuted. Spoilers. But they weren't ready to arrest any of them that night. And so the authorities couldn't just hold Victor Joe and Dylan indefinitely. They had to let them go at some point. And they can't stop them from talking to each other. I know it's like not a perfect system. But people do, you know, collude and get their story straight. The job of the police is to still crack beyond that and find the truth. So yeah, the police do fuck up a lot of stuff in a major way as we're going to see. But I don't really see how they could have stopped this sort of meeting from happening.

We just heard one clip from Victor's interview, but we're going to have a listen to a bit more of it. But Joe was with you. Joe was with me? Was Joe in the bedroom the whole time with you before you heard the screams? Yeah, as far as I know, yes. But because you had dozed off. I was asleep. I woke up to the screams, and I just, I remember hearing the screams and jump startling up

and I could feel Joe doing the same thing. Okay. And you and Joe are partners? Yes. Right. And is Dylan in this relationship anywhere? Yes, it is. Okay.

All right. And you and Joe have known each other, how long? For over six years. And you've been together that long? Yes. What about Dylan? Dylan's been with us for about four years. Okay.

Does he share an equal partner relationship? No. No, I'm not right. No. No, not really. Okay. I mean, it's... I think we're trying to develop it in that way, but it's... Okay. That's fine.

You don't need to explain anything further. Yeah. Yeah, it seems like we're all right about the tensions running quite high in the house. Definitely not an equal partnership. Yeah. Victor doesn't sound thrilled. when he's explaining the dynamics of this what he is aiming for three-way relationship, but certainly doesn't appear to be anywhere near one.

And when you watch the footage of this interview, it does come across loud and clear that Victor is not happy. Victor didn't even know that Robert was staying over that night. He was supposed to be on a work trip to Denver, but he came back early. And it's probably that sort of thing that made him feel out of the loop in his own house. And Dylan also hints at this in his interview, saying that he had to open the door for Robert and let him in. And it was he and Joe who showed Robert up to the spare room. Victor was normally the host.

That would be quite annoying. Yeah, I think from everybody who knows them, say like Victor is the one who likes to host people. He's the one that plans things. He's the one that, like, you know, keeps the guest drum up and makes the canopays and does all of that. And so I think it was a bit of a shock to him to come home early. from a work trip and they have dinner together and it's only literally when Robert calls Joe at 10 and says, I'm on my way. They're Joe's like, oh yeah, by the way, Robert's staying over.

And there's definitely a feeling that Victor was pissed off at being, A, not told about that and B, he doesn't play a part in the welcoming of Robert, which he normally would do. He stays in his room and, you know, this is kind of stuff that's come out afterwards. But I definitely think, you know, you could say it's just one pissy night. but I think it's important to how Dylan was making Victor feel, or how Joe was making Victor feel. So let's listen to a bit more. Any problems between, you know,

what about between Dylan and Robert? To be honest with you, I mean, we're friends with Robert, but it's casual friends. I mean, I couldn't tell you five things. about his life, really. I mean, I just, we've had dinner with them. We see them probably three or four times a year. Who's them?

Kathy and Robert. Okay. The most recent time we saw them was Kathy had hip surgery. It was hip surgery. And anyway, she had surgery. And so we all went out to visit her. We took her a gift basket with magazines and books, and Dylan even wanted to cook something.

I mean, it's just, we're, it's, there's absolutely no, okay. Now, this is weird, because I think Victor here is kind of trying to have it both ways. He describes his relationship with Robert as we just heard as casual. We were casual friends. But then he goes on to describe, in my opinion, what's a very un-casual relationship. Like, you know, the whole, like, we took her this basket. took Kathy this basket of like goodies like a care basket after she's

had surgery. That's not a casual friend. That's like doing something very nice for the wife of your friend. And you'll say Robert is casual? I don't think I have any casual friends. What's a casual friend? Good fucking question. An acquaintance? Yes. But that's not a friend. No. It's basically saying it's an acquaintance but I'm like

well he's not an acquaintance. He's known Joe for years and years and years since they were at university together and you have been with Joe for six years. They basically say, like, oh, we only see them maybe like six times a year. He says that in another interview. I'm like, six times a year, that's pretty good going. If you live in cities, once every two months, that's not a casual friend. No.

That's a good friend. Like, it's all just very weird. And Dylan, let's listen to a clip from Dylan because he runs with this same line. How many audience will, uh. No, not that I know. Did you? No. I hardly know the guy.

Good. I mean, we've seen. him, he's gone to fundraising dinner with us, they've been at our house for breakfast and Kathy broke her pips or have them replaced. We took videos to their house and stuff.

I mean, that's all. We know them kind of casually. He's just you know, a friend from college. I hardly know the guy. Okay. And we don't have to just depend on anecdotal evidence for this or the fact that they have literally been in each other's lives for a very long time.

But Joe, through Robert, a surprise 30th birthday party at 1509 Swan Street two years before the murder. And at that party, a picture was taken, which you can find on the internet, of Dylan and Victor each holding up a separate birthday cake for Robert to blow out the candles. And they're all beaming. They're like beaming in this picture. Am I hosting a 30th birthday party for somebody at my house who's a casual, friend and also holding up the cake for them to blow out at that point in the party and I'm just like I barely knew the guy barely fucking knew the guy but I've got a massive grin on my face I don't it doesn't make sense to me what they're trying to do is have it both ways because what they do it they say he's a casual friend barely knew him hardly knew the guy so why would I kill him but simultaneously be like but look at all these nice things we did for Kathy after she had her operation why would we kill Robert we're such good friends with him

is the subtext. So it's like, you can't have it both ways. There are lots of weird and confusing contradictions in this police interviews. And soon, detectives got another piece of information that made the intruder story look all the more like total bullshit. As we told you, at the top, Robert arrived at the house at around 10.30 in the evening. He was in his room by 1045, he showered, changed,

and wrote a couple of emails that he never sent. The last of which was saved at 1107. And then at 1149, the 911 call is placed. And something interesting to add to the timeline is that the next-door neighbours, an elderly couple, said that they heard a scream that night coming from 1509 Swan Street. They didn't know exactly what time they heard it,

but they were watching Maureen Bunyan, a new show that they tuned into every single night without fail, and that show is on between 11. and 1130. And this is 2006, before we just watched everything on demand. So that does help narrow down the timeline even more. I really think this is a very, very important piece, because if we stick with the assumption that Robert was likely still alive at 1107

when that last email was written, the scream had to have been heard before 1130 because a couple say that they heard it during the Maureen Bunyan show they just don't know at what time. Even if the scream was as the show was about to end, so let's say 1130 at most, the call wasn't placed for nearly another 20 minutes because the 911 call was placed at 1149.

Even though Victor and Joe both say that they ran downstairs as soon as they heard the grunting slash screaming slash whatever. And they both say that they immediately called 911. It doesn't add up. Because at most, if the scream heard next door happened at the start of the Maureen Bunyan show at 11, then that means there's a 40-minute window between the scream and the 911 call. Or at least, at the very least, there's a 20-minute window between the scream and the 911 call, which just doesn't make sense. Now, an interesting question I think to ask is

who do we think it was that actually screamed? Was it Robert or was it someone else? Perhaps somebody discovering Robert genuinely for the first time. Or perhaps somebody discovering what was being done to him? Personally, and this is just my opinion, I don't think it was Robert who screamed. I think it was Victor who screamed and that's what the neighbours heard. we'll get into why next week when we go into the autopsy

but I think Victor came down, screamed they heard it next door and then that again gives you at least a 20 minute timeline or time gap between when the discovery is made and the 911 call is placed even if you don't believe me and even if you think it was Robert who screamed they ran down immediately apparently

but don't call the police for another 20 minutes why? Given that the police did not believe an intruder had been inside the house, and since Victor and Joe could at least vouch for each other, investigators zeroed in on Dylan as the culprit pretty quickly, and he was taken in by the FBI to be polygraphed. He was asked, did you kill Robert 1? And do you know who killed Robert 1?

Dylan answered no to both questions, but deception was indicated both times. And you know, because we've said it 100 million times, polygraphs don't really fucking mean anything. They're also inadmissible in court. There is no universal physiological response to deception. So you just cannot have a machine that detects deception. The most a polygraph can do is detect stress.

And if someone had been found dead in my house, whether I killed them or knew who killed them or knew nothing at all, I'd be stressed either way, especially if I was being interviewed by the FBI so I don't really fucking know why they bother No I think it's just like a pressure tactic Like you know they can just say well The polygraph says that you're lying

And then that could make the person crack But of course the police knew That this polygraph result wasn't enough Lie detectors as Hannah said aren't even admissible in US courts They needed some hard evidence To point the finger directly at someone likely someone who was in the house that night.

And the post-mortem was going to be key. Now we will get into all that next week in the second and concluding part of our series on Robert 1. And believe me, you do not want to miss that episode. This episode was very much just a scene setting, taking you into the house that night, showing you the calls, listening to the police interviews.

Next week is where we get into the meat of this case. And it is a lot because Yeah, I'm just going to get graphic straight away. The semen that they found inside Robert One's body and who it belonged to is genuinely one of the most shocking and confusing twists I have seen in a case in quite some time. So be sure to come back next week for part two of who killed Robert One, where we will also discuss our theories. Goodbye. Bye. It's all a lighthearted nightmare on our podcast, Morbid.

We're your hosts. I'm Alina Urquhart. And I'm Ash Kelly. And our show is part true crime, part spooky, and part comedy. The stories we cover are well researched. Of the 880 men who survived the attack, around 400 would eventually find their way to one another and merge into one larger group. With a touch of humor. Shout out to her. Shout out to all my therapists out there's been like eight of them. A dash of sarcasm and just garnished a bit with a little bit of cursing. That mother f***er is not real.

And if you're a weirdo like us and love to cozy up to a creepy tail of the paranormal. Or you love to hop in the way back machine and dissect the details of some of history's most notorious crimes. You should tune in to our podcast. Morbid. Follow Morbid on the Wondry app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to episodes early and ad free by joining Wondry Plus and the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Nearly 30 years ago, a vicious serial killer murdered five women in and around the city of

Mons and Belgium, not far from where I'm standing right now. He taunted authorities, placing their dismembered body parts in locations designed to terrorize the population. There was a macabre and mysterious discovery of body parts apparently dismembered with a sore, according to investigators. His identity remains unknown, but his name still sparks fear, The Butcher of Moss.

Ten trash bags have been discovered so far. Investigators believe it is the work of a serial killer. For the moment, none of the victims have been identified. We've unearthed new evidence, new witnesses, and new suspects. This is Le Monstre, Season 2, The Butcher of Moss. Listen for free on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts. or wherever you get your podcasts.