RedHanded - UPDATE: Bryan Kohberger & The Idaho Student Murders

Episode Date: July 4, 2025

This week in a shocking twist Bryan Kohberger accepted a plea deal for the brutal murders of Kaylee Goncalves, Madison Mogen, Xana Kernodle and Ethan Chapin.In this update – taken from this week's Under the Duvet on our Patreon – we discuss what evidence the prosecution had, why he accepted this deal that will see him die behind bars, and if justice was really served.This episode also includes a re-release of our 2023 episode.Watch the YouTube video of this update here!Exclusive bonus content:Wondery - Ad-free & ShortHandPatreon - Ad-free & Bonus EpisodesFollow us on social media:YouTubeTikTokInstagramVisit our website:WebsiteSources available on redhandedpodcast.comSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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BetMGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with iGaming Ontario. Hi, I'm Lindsey Graham, the host of Wondries American History Tellers. to an operating agreement with iGaming Ontario. Fight back. Listen to American history tellers on the Wondry app or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello. Okay, let's talk about Brian Coburger and the 2022 Idaho student murders. Huge and pretty shocking news this week as Brian Coburger took a plea bargain and pleaded guilty to four counts of first degree murder. Despite up until literally a few days ago, claiming to be innocent of

the brutal murders of Kayleigh González, Maddie Mogan, Ethan Chaffin and Zana Kanodal. Now if you have been following this case, like I have, you will not want to miss our update on this unbelievable story and this frankly completely bizarre new twist. So if you want to get straight to the update that we recorded today on the 2nd of July 2025, jump to about an hour and 30 minute mark in this episode. The audio might sound a little bit weird as the update comes from this week's Under the Duvet over on Patreon. So if you would rather watch the video of us discussing the latest update instead, head

on over to our YouTube channel now where we have posted that specific clip. Link will be in the episode description as well. But if you want to re-listen to our episode from 2023 to remind yourself of all of the details before you get to the update and what's happening right now, let's get into it. And I'll see you on the other side for the update. I'm Saruti. I'm Hannah. And welcome to Red-Handed. And this is the first episode we are recording in January 2023. So they tell me. I'm pretty turned about. I'm not really sure what my name is or where I am. No. But good news is I've spoken to a mic so many times now that it's probably fine. It's probably fine. But happy new year, guys.

Happy new year. Welcome to 2023. Hopefully, they'll be better than the two that preceded it. So let's see. Fingers crossed. Fingers crossed. So this year has already started with somewhat of a crimey bang. Over the past eight weeks, the shocking case of the Idaho student murders has completely

taken over the headlines. It was a pretty unbelievable story when it first happened back in November, but as time has gone on and more and more evidence has been revealed, it is beyond shocking. And I say that as somebody who spends literally all of her time knee deep in true crime. So this episode has undergone a pretty frantic rewrite. I'm feeling a little bit frazzled sat here right now because these frantic rewrite seem to be becoming quite a speciality over here at Red Handed because the plan had been to get you guys like a timely shorthand this week on the Idaho student murders

after the police arrested a suspect on the 30th of December 2022. I knew that we were waiting for the suspect to be extradited to Idaho to get the full probable cause affidavit unsealed, but I didn't think that it would contain, you know, like any major surprises. They don't usually, but I was wrong. Very, very, very wrong. Oh, so wrong. And the probable cause affidavit, which is of course the document that outlines just enough of the police's evidence against an individual to secure an arrest warrant from a judge, was in this case pretty bloody detailed.

So fast forward to a few stressful days getting this rewritten and here we are with not a shorthand but a full length episode on this case. So part one of our Epstein series that most of you were probably expecting today will be out next week. And don't worry if you have absolutely no idea what I'm talking about with regards to Idaho because you haven't been following the case for some reason, we are going to explain it all. So let's get into it. The night of the 12th of November 2022 in Moscow, Idaho was like any other Saturday night in a student town. Everyone

was out and having a good time. And 21-year-old students Maddie Morgan and Kayleigh González, who'd been best friends since they were kids, were out for the night at what we now understand to be a Moscow institution, the Corner Club. Apparently it's the place to go if you're in Moscow, Idaho. Well if I ever am, I won't. At around 1.30 in the morning, they left the bar and headed to a local food truck. There they were caught on the burger van's live Twitch stream. Why on God's green earth does a burger van have a Twitch stream? We are too old to be asking questions like that.

You know what? I think you are correct. Just accept it and move on. I don't think any answer I will be given will be satisfactory to me anyway. We are in our early 30s. It doesn't matter anymore. It's true. I'm over the hill. Send me to a convent.

So these two girls are caught on this mystery Twitch stream that nobody can understand or explain if they're over 30 and they're caught on camera ordering food and looking like two people who just had a good night out. And then they got a private taxi home, arriving at 1.56am at 1122 King Road, the three-story off-campus house that they lived in with three other housemates. One of those housemates was 20-year-old Zana Knodel. Zana was out that night too with her boyfriend, 20 year old Ethan Chapin. The two had been at a fraternity party just a few minutes walk from Zana's house. They were there between at least 9pm and 1.40am. And they arrived back at 1122 King Road together at around 1.45am.

Now Ethan didn't live in this house but he slept over with Zana, meaning that there were six people in the house that night. The two other female students who lived at the house on King Road who we're going to call BF and DM had also been out that night but they were home by 1 a.m. By 4 a.m, everyone in the house had gone to bed. DM and BF went to their rooms. BF was on the first floor, DM was in her room on the second floor. Zana and Ethan went to Zana's room, also on the second floor, and Kayleigh and Maddie went to bed in Maddie's room on the third and top floor. Kayleigh

had her own room on that floor, but the two girls shared a bed that night, like you do when you're drunken at uni. The next morning, so the 13th of November, DM and BF called 911 at 11.58am. They were apparently reporting an unconscious person. During this call, the emergency operator actually spoke with multiple people at the house, including people who didn't live there. These were friends of the housemates. But to this point, the police have not named them and they also have not released the 911 call. So there's not much we can say about this part of the case.

When the police arrived, they discovered that Zana, Ethan, Kayleigh and Maddie had all been stabbed to death. Kayleigh and Maddie's bodies were both found in Maddie's bed. Zana's body was on the floor of her room. Ethan's body was also in her room. But as yet, we don't know where. as yet we don't know where. Now there have been pictures shared online of the outside of the house, specifically the part that is connected to Zana's room and you can see in these pictures what appears to be blood

seeping out of the walls. So while we do not know the specifics of the scene, I think when you see an image like that and know that four people were stabbed to death in that house, I don't think it's a huge leap to say that it was probably a blood path. We know that this is a point of contention for some people, so it is worth mentioning. Why did the 911 call from the house report an unconscious person if there was enough blood that they were seeping through the walls. Surely the fact that they were all dead would have been obvious if there was really that much blood everywhere. Also people question how could both girls who survived, DM and BF, how could they have

slept through such a vicious series of attacks? A lot of things aren't clear still and a lot of things have changed since the probable cause affidavit was released. And we will get back to all of these points and questions about the timing of the emergency call later on but please just bear in mind that we still do not have all of the facts, all of the information, all of the story at this stage. And I also know that if you have read the probable cause you are likely screaming that I am missing out so much information here. I know but we are going to follow this story chronologically as it became public because it's already confusing enough and we will come back to the new information we have learned shortly but

for now let's stick with the timeline as it happened. Over the following few days after the bodies were discovered, more information was released. We were told that there was no sign of forced entry into the house and that the four victims likely died between 3am and 4am and that the murder weapon was some sort of fixed blade military style knife. And while this weapon has still not been recovered, to this point, at the point that we're recording this on Monday the 9th of January, put a big old pin in this for now because that probable cause document delivered a lot on this.

The post mortems at the time also revealed that there was no sign of sexual assault and that all four victims had died of multiple stab wounds. Though it was soon disclosed that Cayley's injuries were quote, significantly more brutal. We were also told that some of the victims had been asleep when they were killed, but that some of them had defensive wounds. We don't know who was awake and who may have been asleep, and we also don't know in which order the victims were attacked. We can infer some things regarding this from the probable cause affidavit, but it's still not totally clear. And it would be really enlightening for us to understand

the order because knowing the order of the deaths might give us a few more clues as to who if any one of the victims was the intended target, but at the moment we just don't know for sure. We can speculate and don't you worry we will, but speculation is all we have at this stage. Kingston Buskers Rendezvous is back! Starting July 10th, come to Downtown Kingston for this crowd-wowing festival and enjoy four days of jugglers, musicians, acrobats, comedians and more. Talented performers from all over the world can't wait to entertain you all weekend long. It all starts on Thursday, July 10th with performances right in the heart of Downtown

Kingston. And don't miss Buskers After Dark, the Friday Night Fire Show. For more information, go to downtownkingston.ca. Last year, law and crime brought you the trial that captivated the nation. She's accused of hitting her boyfriend, Boston police officer John O'Keefe with her car. Karen Reed is arrested and charged with second degree murder. The six-week trial resulted in anything but resolution. We continue to find ourselves at an impasse.

I'm declaring a mistrial in this case. But now the case is back in the spotlight. And one question still lingers. Did Karen Reed kill John O'Keefe? The evidence is overwhelming that Karen Reed is innocent. How does it feel to be a cop killer, Karen? I'm Kristin Thorn, investigative reporter with Law and Crime and host of the podcast, Karen, the retrial. This isn't just a retrial. It's a second chance at the truth. I have nothing to hide. My life is in the balance and it shouldn't be.

I just want people to go back to who the victim is in this. It's not her. Listen to episodes of Karen, The Retrial, exclusively and ad free on Wondery Plus. After this, a couple more weeks went by without much more new information coming from law enforcement. And as always happens, in an information vacuum, the internet went absolutely fucking mental.

Stories about a 12 year old dog, a mini Australian shepherd named Buddy, who had been killed, skinned and dismembered in the local area just weeks before the massacre, suddenly surfaced. And if possible, this freaked an already terrified community out even more. What the fuck? I don't know. I don't know what is going on because it is true about the dog. When I first heard it, I actually didn't think it was true, but it is true. But there is no evidence that this dog murder was related in any way to the King Road massacre.

And the police have actually since seemingly ruled it out. For reasons that will become obvious, I think we can't trust everything the police have actually since seemingly ruled it out. For reasons that will become obvious, I think we can't trust everything the police say to us with regards to this case. But there is another reason that we will again come on to later, which is the reason why I don't think it's connected. But what is going on, Moscow? I don't know. And then after the dog, things got weirder again. It was time for the first round of internet accusations to start. We learned that Kaylee and Maddie had taken it in turns to call Kaylee's ex-boyfriend

seven times between 2.26am and 2.44am on the night they died. We are not going to name this person because the internet tore his life apart, especially when the interwebs discovered that Kayleigh and this poor guy shared a dog, a golden labradoodle called Murphy, who was in the house during the murders, but survived the attack completely unharmed. And since Murphy was with Kayleigh the night she was killed, people speculated, well if the dog didn't bark, and if he wasn't hurt that night, it must have been because Murphy the dog knew the killer.

Therefore insinuating that the killer was obviously Kayleigh's ex-boyfriend. But pretty sharpish, the police cleared Kayleigh's ex-boyfriend as a suspect. And as for Murphy and his lack of barking, which was an assumption based on the fact that we were told that the two surviving housemates slept through the whole attack. Well, we will come back to it later. By mid-November 2022, there didn't seem to have been much movement on the case, and the police were starting to face serious backlash from the community and from some of the families of the victims. People were apparently shocked at how quickly authorities seemed to be ruling

suspects out. It also seemed like the investigating team's messaging to the public was confusing. At first a person told everybody that it was a crime of passion, then a few days later somebody from the police department told everybody that it was a calculated and targeted attack. Then they weren't being clear if the target was likely the house or if it had been the victims themselves. But we have to understand that these kind of killings are absolutely the hardest to solve. It wasn't a domestic incident, it wasn't a killer who left a manifesto, there was seemingly no motive and no connection. But of course, people,

especially the families, were getting frustrated with the lack of information. Especially, I think, when the police were telling people not to worry and that there was no imminent risk to anyone else in the community. Because that just begged the question, if they had no leads and no answers like they were saying, how could they possibly know that? And Kayleigh's family, who at one point called the police cowards, were furious that authorities hadn't clearly stated to the public that Kayleigh's injuries were much more brutal than the rest. They also told police that Kayleigh had complained to them about a stalker in the weeks leading up to her death. So had she been the target? And were the police wasting time by not pursuing that line

of inquiry seriously enough? And although at first the police said that there wasn't any evidence to substantiate the Kayleigh-Stalker theory, they did later discover an incident in a local shop in Moscow that had occurred in mid-October 2022. Two men had followed Kayleigh around the shop and then out to her car. They didn't speak to her or make contact, but they obviously freaked the freaked the 21 year old out. But the police, yet again, found these men and ruled them out very quickly. Although they didn't really clarify how they did that, so Kayleigh's family were still pretty angry.

And as to whether Kayleigh was the intended victim, it's hard to say definitively. We just don't have enough evidence to confirm whether this is true or not. And as for her injuries being worse, that could just be because she fought back the most. But once more, take out your pin cushion, we will discuss motive towards the end. Yeah, you're all going to have like a little pinhead pin cushion going on by the end of this episode. I know, but we just have to go in this order otherwise we're all just gonna be as confused as I was about 48 hours ago. For now let's stick with the facts. By this point so we're sort of

getting into early December you had the media screaming has this case gone cold? I like looked back at all of like the news reports and this is basically the resounding headline at the time. And I'm just like, are you fucking kidding? It's been three or four weeks since the murders. Again, it is the kind of murder in which there is no obvious connection, no obvious motive, no obvious person for them to look at, no manifesto, nothing leading them to a potential perpetrator. So for the media, they're just screaming about this because they have nothing else to go on at this point. But it was now that the police had an announcement. On Wednesday, the 7th of December, authorities said that

they wanted to speak to the driver of a white 2011-2013 Hyundai Elantra. And I know everybody says Hyundai differently. I always say Hyundai. What do you say? Hyundai is Hyundai is how the Koreans say it. And it is a Korean car. But I can't say that. There's Hyundai Beach in Busan, which is the same and everyone says Hyundai. Let's say Hyundai then. Hyundai. Okay, we'll say Hyundai then. So looking for a 2011-2013 Hyundai Elantra that was seen, quote, in the immediate area of the victim's house early on the 13th of November, which is of course the night slash morning of the murders. After this, again, everything went quiet. And to be honest, at this point, I really

didn't have much faith that this case would ever be solved. When you look at sort of the area itself, for example, the town of Moscow hadn't had a murder in seven years before this happened. Yeah, I know I was like saying about the dog being skinned, but again, that does seem to just be like a random anomalous thing that happened. No one had been killed in this town in a murder in seven years. So I wasn't holding my breath. I figured that we'd have another sort of like Delphi situation and this would just go on for years and years with nothing. But then, on Friday the 30th of December, out of nowhere, just over six weeks after the murder, the police

arrested someone. That someone was 28-year-old PhD student Brian Christopher Coburger. Coburger was studying criminal justice and criminology at Washington State University in Pullman, Washington. He lived about eight miles from the King Road house, where the four victims were massacred. But Pullman, Washington was not where the FBI arrested Brian Christopher Coburger. Coburger was actually about 2,500 miles away at his parents' house in Albrightsville, Pennsylvania, up in the Poconos Mountains. A month after the murders, on the 15th of December, Coburger and his dad, who had flown from Pennsylvania to Washington State to meet his son, had embarked on the massive cross-country

drive together. The plan was to spend three days driving back to the family home for Christmas in Coburger's white Hyundai Elantra. To a lot of people this looks like Coburger was fleeing and maybe, but it was weeks after the killings. So maybe it had been his dad's idea, like the family say. It was something that he had planned to do long before. But since this father-son duo drove there in Brian's car, that means Brian would have to drive it back, presumably on his own. So that's a three-day drive on your own in the new year. Which doesn't prove anything, but does seem like a hell of a faff. Yeah, like if the dad had like come there and driven there in his car, but Brian was going to

fly back, like maybe, you know, I don't want to get too caught up in this. It is a weird thing. But then maybe a father son crosscountry trip isn't that strange. Yeah, I definitely know people who've driven cross-country and this is another one of those infinite moments where we're just going to get told off for not understanding how the US works. But I know people who've driven cross-country, but doing it on your own for no reason seems a lot. Exactly, especially when you've got a PhD to get back to. But anyway, that is all very much assuming Brian Coburger didn't do it. But what if Brian Coburger is the killer? Did he make this trip? Because he knew that there was a Bolo out for a white Hyundai Elantra in the area he was in, and he knew that

it would be far too suspicious for him to dump it or sell it in Pullman, Washington, just a few miles from the killings. So, had he wanted to get the car to the other side of the country, and did he just use his dad as a ruse? Who knows? We're just speculating. And of course, until he has proven guilty, Brian Koberger is presumed innocent. What is fascinating though, about the whole situation is that the entire time Coburger was making this trip across the US, law enforcement were already on his tail. And Coburger and his dad were actually pulled over twice by Indiana State Police during this journey, apparently for getting too close to the car in front. You can watch the body cam footage from one of these stops on YouTube, but the other is being held back for now. There have been a lot of questions about, if Coburger did it,

whether or not Coburger's dad knew anything. And in our opinion, watching his dad in the body cam footage, I just don't think so. Brian Coburger looks very shifty. And again, you know, we're looking at that through the lens of him being a suspect in this case. He looks shifty, but people look shifty. And again, you know, we're looking at that through the lens of him being a suspect in this case. He looks shifty, but people look shifty when they get pulled over by the police, right? But the dad doesn't seem nervous. So I don't know. Kerbergger's dad even talks to the police officer about a mass shooting that occurred a few weeks before in Pullman, Washington. And would you bring that up if you knew your son who was sitting right next to you was being looked at for the Idaho

student murders? Just, you know, the case that everyone is talking about all the time. This is the thing, would you like bring up another sort of mass murder situation if you knew if Brian had called you a man like, Dad, I fucked up, come get me? Yeah, I don't know. But then again, also him bringing up the mass shooting does indicate that all the way across in Pennsylvania, he is aware of the news that's happening on the West Coast because his son is obviously there. So did he not know about the Idaho student murders? Couldn't possibly be the case because it was all over the headlines. Could he not know about the white Hyundai Elantra that they were looking for? Again, it seems unlikely because this was nationwide news and again we don't know if that

conversation happened. Did his dad get there and be like, hey Brian have you been to the police because you're driving a car that's a lot like the one the police are looking for? We don't know that that conversation didn't happen. You know, his dad may have said it and Brian may have been like, yeah, dad, it's fine. They've cleared me. They know it's not me or I wasn't there. Do you know what I mean? Like, we don't know if he knew he was a part of this ruse to get the car across the country, allegedly. It's one hell of a double bluff, isn't it? I just can't imagine sitting in the car for

three days knowing you've murdered four people next to your dad. Yeah, allegedly. And not saying anything. Allegedly. Allegedly, allegedly, allegedly. Yeah. I know. I mean, and there is one bit that people are obviously making a huge thing of on the internet

because people have watched this body cam footage again and again and again and like clipped out certain bits. But there's one bit where the police officer goes, where are you guys coming from? And they say Washington, Washington state. They go, where are you headed? And the dad just goes, oh, to the Poconos Mountains. We're going home for Christmas. And you just see Brian just look at his dad like, shut the fuck up. And again, like you're reading into it because you know he's been arrested. But yeah, we'll have to wait and see. So anyway, I suspected that these stops by the Indiana State Police were done on purpose.

I really don't know what is the likelihood if you were driving 2,500 miles that you would get pulled over twice in the same day for the same minor offence. I don't know. I think people get pulled over a lot more in the States than they do here. That's what I figured. But I also felt like it's a huge coincidence that this guy who is driving around in a car that looks like the car that they are looking for gets pulled over twice and nobody mentions, as far as we can see because we haven't seen the second stop, the fact that he's driving a white Hyundai Elantra. So was it done on purpose to try and gauge Coburg's behavior? Was it done to like keep tabs on him? Also, I've seen people saying things like possibly they stopped him to take a closer look at his hands to see if he had recent scars. Because it

would have been, you know, it would have been a few weeks after the murders. But if you stabbed four people to death, it's very unlikely you got away with nothing happening to your hands. But Indiana State police officers who stopped him said that they didn't know he was a suspect. Do I believe them? I'm not sure. But in any case, Brian Coburger and his dad were let go both times just with warnings. So father and son got home to the Poconos on the 17th of December, and Christmas came and went without much incident. Though we know now, thanks to that probable cause affidavit, that the

police and the FBI were still secretly hammering away at that case against Koberger the entire time. Pin here for now. Then on Friday the 30th of December at 3 in the morning, the FBI and a full SWAT team complete with flash grenades stormed the Koberger home and arrested Brian Koberger. I know this is small fry, right? But there is some small satisfaction I take, not in the family, because I don't think they did know anything. But in Brian Koberger, his house being stormed at 3am, which was roughly about the time that he was doing what he did to the victims. Merry Christmas.

Koberger was charged with four counts of first degree murder and felony burglary and the police seized that white Hyundai Elantra. And the police searched the family house in Pennsylvania, in the small town in which Koberger had grown up, much to the absolute horror of the roughly 200 residents who lived there. Can you imagine, can you even imagine the Poconos Mountains, the area in which they live, it's very rural, it's very beautiful, it's very much like the kind of place that people go on holiday, right? It's like the Cotswolds or something in the UK. It's a

tiny town where he grew up. Everyone knows him. Everyone knows his family. I googled three times just to check that the town only has 200 people living there. Can you imagine this case has been blowing up all over the news and they fucking arrest somebody in your tiny town. It's mad. I can't, I can't even get my head around it. The police in that town, because like I said, he grew up there. He was a teenager there. I learned to drive, etc. They were like the only thing that's ever brought Brian Coburger across our radar

was he got stopped once for not wearing a seat belt when he was a teenager. Police also simultaneously tore apart Coburger's flat in Pullman, Washington, where he was at uni and also the office he had within the university itself. Because yes, as a PhD student, Coburger was also working as a teaching assistant for undergrad students, many of whom have since his arrest said that after the murders, Coburger was stressed, unkempt and constantly turning up late to class. If it is true that Coburger is the killer, then it seems that he's definitely chilled out considerably since his arrest because according to the police, despite the fact

that he has been on constant suicide watch and strapped into what I can only describe as some sort of anti-suicide smock, it's like a mini dress. And you're apparently not even allowed pants. No. And by pants, I mean underwear, Americans, because obviously you could take them off and choke yourself to death. Yeah, it's impossible a mini dress and you're apparently not even allowed pants. And by pants, I mean underwear Americans because obviously you could take them off and choke yourself to death. Yeah, it's impossible to rip. Yes.

The whole vibe. So presumably it's very uncomfortable and a very like vulnerable feeling to be wearing one of those because you're not even wearing pants. Exactly. But despite all of this, Coboberger apparently just sleeps for hours at a time in his cell. And again, it's going to take a lot more than this sort of thing to secure a guilty verdict. And I'm going to say allegedly, allegedly, allegedly. But they do say after an arrest, the innocent ones pace and the guilty ones sleep because on some level, they're relieved to have been caught.

Although, Koberger's defence attorney simply stated that, quote, although his client was a little surprised to have been arrested, he's eager to be exonerated of these charges. I fucking bet he is. Following his arrest, it took two days to get Brian Koberger from Pennsylvania back to Idaho. And thanks to an interesting little quirk of Idaho law, of which there are many, for those two days, the probable cause affidavit was kept sealed. And not just from us, the plebs in the public, but even Brian Koberger himself and his defense team weren't allowed to see it. Yes. So when he was arrested, he was obviously arrested in Pennsylvania and he was kept in the Monroe County jail there. And he had to go to like an extradition hearing. This hearing was like all sorts of drama.

It was the first time you see him in like his bright red prison overalls, like being escorted into the building. Everybody's like all the media's there, they're all screaming, Brian, why did you do it? Why did you do it? And it's like a fucking shush, be quiet. And it's so, so, so sad, obviously for the victims, like goes without saying, but his mum and his two sisters are there. And you can see them going in, they look absolutely destroyed. And apparently, because there was no cameras in the hearing, his mum was sat in there and she was crying and screaming so loudly that like a deputy sheriff had to like bring her tissues because she was so hysterical.

And like there was nothing his sisters could do to calm them down. And apparently he didn't look at anybody apart from at them at one point, make eye contact and mouth, I love you to them. But like, I just, again, we don't know, but it was a horrifying situation to put everybody through, but he had to be extradited from Pennsylvania to Idaho is my point. And he didn't fight the extradition at all. He waived his right to fight it, went straight there. And obviously an extradition from Pennsylvania to Idaho hearing is just a formality. It's not like Pennsylvania is not going to extradite Brian Koberger to Idaho. But the reason he didn't fight it to like, you know, use that time to like prepare his defense more or anything like that or get a story straight. It's because unless he got to Idaho, he wasn't going to

get presented with the evidence that they had against him to make that arrest, which an Idaho's far is very smart. So yeah, not Brian, not his defense team, neither would have known the evidence against him until he set foot back in Idaho, which he on Thursday the 5th of January and that meant his team got to see the evidence he got to see the evidence and so did we and fuck me Janet it is quite a shocker yep to shock. Yeah. We have to bet that that that which I heard nobody for

decades, he was untouchable. But now it's all coming undone Sean combs the mogul as we know it is over he will never be that person again even if he's found not guilty of these charges. I'm Jesse Weber host of law and crimes, the rise and fall of Diddy the federal trial a front row seat to the biggest trial in entertainment history, sex trafficking racketeering prostitution allegations by federal prosecutors that span

decades and witnesses were finally speaking out. The spotlight is harsher the stakes are higher and for did there may be no second chances you can listen to the rise and fall of did the federal trial exclusively with one 3 plus join one 3 plus in the one 3 app, Spotify or Apple podcast right now. In the early 20th century, a seemingly ordinary cook in New York City became the center of a medical mystery and a public health crisis. Hi, I'm Lindsey Graham, the host of Wondery's podcast, American History Tellers. We take you to the events, times and people that shaped America and Americans, our values, our struggles and our dreams. In our latest series, we follow

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or Spotify. Start your free trial today. So let's now, at long last, look at the probable cause affidavit and see how this investigation and the arrest fell together. Now we're not going to read the whole document. It's like 18 pages long. We'd be here forever. But we will summarize bits and we will read some bits out verbatim but mainly we're going to focus on the new information that we learnt. We will however leave a link in the sources so you can go read the whole thing for yourselves if you want to I would highly recommend doing so because it is very very eye-opening. So this probable cause affidavit before we begin just to be clear was written and submitted by Corporal Brett Payne of the Moscow

Police Department. So in the first two and a half pages, it doesn't really tell us anything that we didn't already know. It explains the location of the bodies. The Zana and Ethan were both found on the floor of Zana's room and Kayleigh and Maddie were found in Maddie's bed. And it also explains that they all died of sharp force injuries. Now the entire second page of the probable cause affidavit is redacted. And it presumably included information about the 911 call. But that is just a guess, I do not know.

But it does feel like that's where it would fit in the timeline. Page three is where we see our first kind of absolute what the fuck moment. So we are going to read that bit to you directly. As I entered Maddie Morgan's bedroom, I could see two females in the single bed in the room. González and Morgan were deceased with visible stab wounds. I also later noticed what appeared to be a tan leather knife sheath laying on the bed next to Mogan's right side when viewed from the door. The sheath was later processed and had K bar USMC and the United States Marine Corps Eagle,

Globe and Anchor insignia stamped on the outside of it. The Idaho State Lab later located a single source of male DNA suspect profile left on the button snap of the knife sheath. A fucking knife sheath. They found a fucking knife sheath in Maddie's bed. And not only is there a knife sheath, it's got DNA on it. There's just so much to this. The fact that it is also a single source male DNA is very interesting. Obviously, if it's a mixed DNA sample, that makes it less sort of, it can make it less conclusive. So very, very shocking to see that. Like it's on basically the clasp that you would open the knife sheath with to get the knife out.

Some people have said it seems a bit weird that they only say it's got single source male DNA on it if it was found in the bed with Maddie Mogren, why isn't it covered in their blood? It doesn't say that it's not, it just says that it's found, they found one single source of male DNA on it. So yeah, it's pretty unbelievable. If this is the sheath of the knife that was used in the killings, so a military K-Bar knife, this knife, and I've seen images of it, I've seen it in people's hand, it is a massive seven-inch sharpened steel knife that is made for combat. It is heavy duty. It is so thick because like one end of it is made so you can like fucking fell trees or something if you're lost in the woods.

It is huge. So it's not like you're picking horses' hooves with it or anything? It's absolutely a beast. It's a beast. And it's also not a knife that is readily available, like to the public. I'm not saying you couldn't get your hands on it. Way, way back in like the pasto times, it seems to have been issued to military personnel. Then that stopped. And now my understanding is, and I might be wrong, my understanding is that people in the Marines buy it, but purely out of tradition. And it's more like

an heirloom that you buy your son or you buy yourself when you join the Marines. And actually a lot of Marines said, I would never use this because it's not fit for purpose for that kind of thing. But it's very interesting that that's what was used. And so if this was the knife that was used and we have to wait for more information to be revealed about that, because it isn't readily available, depending on how the killer got his hands on one, if he hasn't like immediately got a family member who was in the Marines, it could possibly lead right back to him. Because he's not done the sort of typical thing that you would think to do if you were going to be a murderer, which is use a very,

very everyday knife that's like from fucking, you know, target that's not going to be traced back to you because there are so many of them that have been sold. So let's now skip ahead to page four of the affidavit because the rest is just outlines of the movements of each of the victims and the two survivors on the night of the killings, all stuff that we know already. And then we have this. DM and BF both made statements during interviews that indicated the occupants of King Road residents were all home by 2am and asleep or at least in their rooms by approximately 4am. We already knew that, but this is the interesting bit. This is with the exception of Conodal, and that's obviously Zana Conodal,

who received a door dash order at the residence at approximately 4am. Law enforcement identified the DoorDash delivery driver who reported this information. So what that means is that the murders took place a lot later than we originally thought. We used to think between 2 and 3am. But Zana got food delivered at 4am so that just cannot possibly be true. It completely changes the timeline of everything. Let's continue with the document. DM stated she originally went to sleep in her bedroom on the south east side of the

second floor. DM stated that she was awoken at approximately 4am by what she stated sounded like Gonzalves, such Kayleigh, playing with her dog in one of the upstairs bedrooms, which were located on the third floor. A short time later, DM said she heard what she thought was Gonzalves saying something to the effect of, there's someone here. A review of records obtained from a forensic download of Knodel's phone showed that this statement could also have been made by Knodel as her cellular phone indicated that she was likely awake and using the TikTok app at approximately

4.12am. Oh, I'm upset. Jesus, Mary and Joseph. And the tiny donkey. And the tiny donkey. I haven't slept in like properly since I read this proper book of Corsair for David. And it is that sentence. There's another sentence that's also coming, but that sentence, there's someone here. So another thing that we had been told by police originally just cannot be true. We had all been told from the start by police that DM and BF, the two surviving girls, had

slept through the entire attack and not heard a thing. But we know that just can't be true. No, because DM is saying that she heard somebody playing with the dog upstairs and then somebody, and we don't know who it could have been Zana, it could have been Kayleigh saying, there's someone in there, someone here, there's someone in the house. CHARLEYY And again, we now know that Zana was still alive and on TikTok, probably eating her door dash delivery at 4.12am. MS. So it's just making that window for when the murders happened more, pushing it

further and further and also making it more and more narrow. So again, now let's go back to the document. DM stated that she looked out of her bedroom but did not see anything when she heard the comment about someone being in the house. DM stated that she opened her door a second time when she heard what she thought was crying coming from Connodel's room. DM then said she heard a male voice say something to the effect of, it's okay, I'm going to help you. Yeah. And it's so hard to know because we don't know who's crying, but it's coming from Zana's room so it's probably her. And we don't know who said, it's okay, I'm going to help you.

We don't know if it was the killer or if it was her boyfriend or if it was Zana's boyfriend Ethan, because we don't know the tone in which it was said. Presumably DiEM would have been particularly familiar with Ethan's voice because she lived with his girlfriend and it seems like he was there quite a lot. So would she not have recognized his voice? And if it was the killer, what was going on in that house and who was he talking to? I don't know. But yeah, let's carry on. At approximately 4.17am, a security camera at 11.12 King Road, a residence immediately to the north west of 11.22 King Road, picked up a distorted audio of what sounded like

voices or a whimper, followed by a loud thud. A dog can also be heard barking numerous times starting at 4.17am. The security camera is less than 50 feet from the west wall of Conelldals bedroom. So this tells us a few things. It firstly tells us that the house isn't completely isolated, right? This isn't a house in the middle of nowhere. It's on a quiet residential street. There is another house 50 feet away, close enough that I think it's like a ring doorbell or something that picks this up. Close enough that I think it's like a ring doorbell or something that picks

this up. Close enough that a security camera attached to the house next door can hear whimpering and a thud and Murphy barking. And so the fact that we now know Murphy was barking, again, is very contrary to what we were led to believe before. We now know that the surviving girls, or at least DM, and the victims themselves did not all sleep through the attack. I think one of the things that people were taking some solace with with this case was everybody thought that the victims had kind of all been stabbed in their sleep and that was in some way a small mercy. But I think now it's clear to see that everyone in that house, with the possible exception of BF, seems to have been horrifyingly or too aware of what was going on and the

very real danger that they were in. And the only way it makes sense that BF didn't hear this is because her room is the only one that's on the first floor. And directly above her is the kitchen. There's no bedroom directly above her. What can I say? It's absolutely nightmarish. And I think one of the things that really has probably made me lose the most sleep is that imagine you're at home in a small, safe town, a student town, where you probably know a lot of the people. You know that there are five other people in the house that night and all of the victims, so Zana, Ethan, Kaylee, and Maddie were all in bed with somebody else. I like literally can't think of a scenario in which

you would feel more safe. They're like Zana's getting door dash delivered at four in the morning. They were completely not a care in the world. They were completely at ease and you still end up getting brutally murdered in your own room or your own bed. It's just like unbelievable. And for the families as well, imagine your kids are like, I want to go to uni in New York or LA or some other city where it's like a big city, who knows what's going to happen. They're like, I want to go to uni in Idaho and I'm going to be living in Moscow with my best friend who you've known since we were kids in Kaylee and Maddie's case. And Ethan's actually a triplet. All three of him and his siblings all went to the same uni. And Zana is like with this guy and like Ethan's a big guy. Like it's, it's

almost like the shattering of any kind of peace of mind any of us could have about feeling safe. And I think that's what has captured so many people's, I don't want to say imagination, that sounds horrible, captured so many people's nightmares with this case. And I'm afraid it's only going to get worse. Yep. Because DM stated that she opened her door for the third time after she heard the crying coming from Zana's room and saw a figure clad in black clothing and a mask that covered the person's mouth and nose, walking towards her. DM described the figure as 5'10 or taller, male, not very muscular but athletically built with bushy eyebrows. The male walked past DM as she stood in a quote frozen shock phase. The male walked

towards the back sliding glass door and DM locked herself in her room after seeing the male. DM did not state that she recognized the male and this leads investigators to believe that the murderer left the scene. The combination of DM statements to law enforcement reviews the forensic downloads of records from BF and DM's phones and video of a suspect as described below leads investigators to believe the homicides occurred between 4 a.m. and 4 25 a.m. During the processing of the crime scene investigators found a latent shoe print. This was located during the second processing of the crime scene by the ISP forensic team

by first using a presumptive blood test and then amino black, a protein stain that detects the presence of cellular material. The detected shoe print showed a diamond shaped pattern similar to the pattern of a van's type shoe sole just outside the door of DM's bedroom, located on the second floor. And this is consistent with DM's statement regarding the suspect's path of travel.

I hate it. I'm upset. Yeah. No words, really. Apart from these words that I'm about to say with my mouth, there are some people completely and utterly vile who have been bullying DM because she went back into her bedroom and locked her door. I honestly, when I was doing the research on this, I felt scared at times. I felt uneasy being in my own bed at night. I'll be honest, I felt like that for the past few days. And the one thing I would tell myself to make myself feel better is people like this killer, they are not common.

This kind of psychopathic level is not an usual occurrence in human behavior. What are the chances? But then I read these fucking comments to DM on the internet, and this is not a few people trolling. It was trending number one, right? A few days ago. And I would say 90% of the comments were aimed at 20 year old DM, a fucking trauma survivor of a scale I can't even imagine saying the most vile, horrific, disgusting things. And that really made me think, oh, maybe it's not that rare that people are this fucking psychopathic then.

Like I have no idea how you could or why you would feel it was necessary for you to go onto the internet and bully this person. We do not even have all of the information. Can I just reiterate that a probable cause affidavit is not an indictment. No police force on the planet would release all of the information that they have against a potential suspect at this point. In fact, one of the reasons that they probably use this guy, Corporal Brett Payne to do it is because he's like a rookie on the force. And so they can get him to write it and then later on say, well,

he didn't have all of the information. So these people, it's beyond disgusting. These people also ask why DM didn't call the police instantly. Why did she wait until almost noon to do it? Because they're saying if she looked out and she saw all of this, she saw the killer leaving at about, you know, 4.26am or whatever we just said. Why does she wait until 11.58 the next day to call 911? Emma Watson I think I'd probably think it was some sort of horrible sleep paralysis situation. I mean, obviously you can't speculate. And this is the thing, there's absolutely no way on this earth that we all inhabit, whether we like

it or not, there is no way anybody can say what they would have done in that situation. Fuck right off if you think that you would know how you would handle this situation. I haven't been anywhere near this case apart from reading about it and I haven't slept properly for days. Imagine the fear. Imagine the fear of opening your door and seeing what she saw. And the reaction to extreme fear isn't always fight or flight. A very important one that we often miss is freeze. If DiEMme realised the gravity of the situation and can completely understand why she hid, her body would have been overwhelmed with physiological responses,

driving her to self-preservation. She could have completely shut down in traumatic stress, hiding in that room, fearing for her life. She possibly could have passed out even, we just don't know. It's also entirely possible that she was intoxicated. She didn't realise what was going on. This house often had people coming and going, dogs barking, music on, food being delivered at 4am and all the rest. It was a student house. She may have been in a state of inebriation, thought it was some guy someone had hooked up with and then she didn't know what happened until the next day. And before you bring up the frozen shock phase comment from the document, you have to remember

that these probable cause affidavits are written to get an arrest warrant. Exactly. And I think obviously in the probable cause affidavit, it also says that the way they sort of timeline when the murders happened is through messages between BF and DM. I wonder if she sees him. She's terrified. She goes back into her room. They have been drinking. They've been drinking. There was a football game that day. They were out all night. Like this is no judgment. They were probably all a little bit drunk. She sees what she sees. She's absolutely fucking terrified, frozen, maybe even passes out, comes back to and texts the other people in the house and maybe only gets a response from BF, who we know if anyone did

sleep through the entire attack, it was only really have been her because she was on the first floor. And I do not think it is at all beyond reasonable thinking that she waited until BF replied to her before she came out of her room. She might have been like, tell me when you're awake, tell me when you're awake, tell me when you're awake. And she was too scared to come out. And why didn't she call 911? Because she doesn't know what the fuck is going on outside.

And I'm saying this as an adult woman, calling 911 or calling 999, it feels like a huge thing to do, right? So I just think before anybody judges her, before people go on the internet and fucking harass her, and I know I'm not talking to our listeners, but like, just fuck off. We also don't know anything about DM's past traumas. We don't know anything about what's happened to her in the past. Also, people have different levels of like resilience when it comes to things like this. Unless you're in the military or in the police or something where you've been trained to override your brain's natural impulses for self-preservation, I always think your lizard brain is going to win in a situation like that. I listened to a really great explanation about this by a lady called Dr. Shiloh who does the podcast LA

Not So Confidential and she explained that of the three responses to a fierce stimuli, so fight, flight or freeze, our caveman selves or the ones who likely survived in order to procreate and pass on their genes to us would probably most often have actually gone for freeze and she describes it like this, if you spotted a lion or something that was going to tear you apart you know you can't outrun it. You know that you can't kill it with your bare hands because you've already seen like fucking Dave from cave down the road. Cave Dave. Cave Dave get eviscerated by a lion last week. But you know, if you freeze, you might just survive. Also, and this is so, so important, I want everybody

to remember this, we do not know enough about that 911 call. We haven't heard it and it is not mentioned in the probable cause affidavit. So, noon on November the 13th, as we've been told, might not even be true. We were told up until now that the two other survivors had been asleep the entire time. We just don't know if they called before or not. There have been reports that are unsubstantiated that the girls did actually call 911 sooner, but that they were in such a state of shock, they were completely unintelligible and that one of them had actually passed out. Again, that's not verified, I'm just saying. As for why the killer didn't kill DM when she saw him, it's possible he didn't see

her. Other reasons could be that he was exhausted, stabbing four people to death is not an easy task. Or maybe he had done what he came to do, maybe he had a specific target in mind and he'd already killed them. Or his bloodlust that night was satisfied. Or he wanted to leave a witness and a survivor. Maybe he wanted to leave someone alive to keep them around like a sort of living trophy. Knowing that there were two survivors who could spend the rest of their lives scarred by the trauma of his actions might have got him off. Or maybe he wanted to do it for the infamy. Look at Delphi. It was huge and one of the reasons it was quite so

massive was absolutely the video footage evidence. In this case, we just don't know. And why didn't he kill Murphy, especially if the dog was barking, which we now know he was? Well, oh my god. I know. I know. Brian Coburg, huhurg is a vegan. Yeah. Yeah. And the kind of vegan who apparently, and again, this is just like, we've heard this on the internet from people who knew him saying this since, and we do not know

if he's the killer, allegedly, allegedly, allegedly. But apparently, he even like harangued his aunt and uncle who he stayed with for a while into buying brand new pots and pans because he refused to eat out of pans that had previously cooked meat. And that is not a judgment on vegans, that is a judgment on Brian Coeburger. So yeah, allegedly, allegedly, allegedly, we don't know, but it's quite convenient. And that's why it also makes me think that he probably didn't skin buddy the dog. Good point. So all of this was brand new information. And like we said earlier, it can allow us to infer a few things about the order of the murders, which like we said, is crucial if

we want to speculate in any way as to who might have been the target. And like we said, this is just speculation and we need the police to investigate like co-mingling of DNA and blood etc to say for sure the order in which people were killed. So for example, if you find like one person's blood and DNA in another room, you can figure out in which order people were killed. But we don't have that. But I think given DM's testimony, this is maybe what makes the most sense. Let's say that the killer gets into the house either through the front door, which is on the first floor, or the sliding patio doors on the second floor.

Now I wish we had a YouTube channel at points like this because I would love to have a diagram of the house that I have stared at for fucking hours last night, but I don't't so I'm going to put a picture of it on our social media try look at it while I'm explaining it to you three story house first floor you have a front door second floor you've got some big patio doors that open into the kitchen so he comes in either of those two ways and again there was no sign of fourth century because this is a fucking student house and there's no one's dad going around checking that all the doors and windows are shut before he goes to bed. I'm thinking everybody just thinks someone else will close it and they've all gone upstairs.

Then once he's in, my guess would be that he goes straight upstairs to the third floor and kills both Maddie and Kayleigh first. At some point during this trip upstairs, he locks Murphy, the dog, in Kayleigh's room because that's where the first attending officer on the scene found the dog. And it also just makes me feel really chilled because you know when DM says that she heard someone upstairs playing with the dog and she thought it was Kayleigh? What if it was him? And after he's killed on the top floor, he would then have to come back downstairs to at least the second floor in order to get out of the house. At this

point Zana was awake at 4.12am and we know this because she was on TikTok and she got food delivered at 4am. We also know that the murders happened between 4.04am and 4.20am. Now the layout of the house is that Maddie and Kayleigh are both upstairs, directly above DM's bedroom because that's where Maddie's room was, which we know they were both in. And she hears the dog upstairs, like I said, was it the killer moving Murphy into Kayleigh's room or just playing with him? I don't fucking know. She then hears someone say, there's someone here. Now this could have been Kayleigh above her, or Maddie above her, or it could have been Zana

across the floor from her, who we know was awake, and maybe she was talking to Ethan. If that was the case, does the killer, as he's coming downstairs to the second floor in order to get out of the house, hear Zana say this, and possibly even Zana say this and possibly even Zana and or Ethan are up and looking out of her room to see what's going on. So at this point does the killer go for them? And this is when DiEM opened her door again

and heard the crying coming from Zana's room and the male voice saying, I'm going to help you. So did the killer stab Ethan first? And was he trying to stop Zana crying by telling her I'm going to help you before killing her too? And then we know, they turns around, walks past DM's room because she sees him and that's where the footprint is, and out of the patio doors on the second floor and leave the house. And I think it makes sense that Zana was probably the last to die given DM's testimony because that's who DM heard last right before she saw the killer leave the house. He wouldn't have had time to go back upstairs and kill

Kaylee and Maddie. So it seems like it makes the most sense that he started up there, came down, killed Ethan, killed Zana because DM hears her crying and then leaves the house immediately after. Let's get back to that probable cause affidavit and how the police actually got Koberger on their radar in the first place. Whilst reviewing cameras from houses, businesses and street CCTV around the King Road area, police discovered a white Hyundai Elantra driving around the house before the murders. It passed the house multiple times and it's a quiet street, so it did immediately stand out. They also noted that this car was not seen moving on any cameras during the time

of the killings. But it did reappear soon after and it was seen driving back towards the direction of Pullman Washington. So is when police do this sort of video canvassing review find this Hyundai Elantra that they put out the bolo? But this was all going on behind the scenes because they never say anything again after it. They're never like, oh, still no one's come forward about that white Hyundai. They just say it once, put out a bolo and then never mention it again.

Hmm. But where had this car come from? Well, police got their hands on CCTV from the Washington State University campus and they spotted a white sedan which looked to be the same vehicle as the one spotted near the murder house leaving at 2.53am, heading in the direction of Moscow, Idaho. So the police could now place a white Hyundai Elantra doing strange drive-bys on King Road in the early hours of the 13th of November. And a car consistent with this description could also be tracked coming up from the Washington State University campus all the way to Moscow in

time for the killings. And after the killings, a matching car can be tracked all the way back to Pullman. I'd call that strike too. So, the police put out a bolo on a white Hyundai Elantra on the 25th of November 2022. Four days later, according to the probable cause affidavit, this happened. Yeah, this is, we're going to read this word for word from the document. So on November the 29th, 2022, at approximately 12.28am, Washington State University police officer Daniel Tiango queried white Elantras registered at WSU. As a result of that query he located a 2015 white Elantra with a Pennsylvania

license plate. This vehicle was registered to Brian Koberger, hereafter Koberger, and he resided at 1630 NE Valley Road, apartment 201 Pullman, Washington. And this address is approximately three quarters of a mile from the intersection of Stadium Park and Cougar Way, which, you'll be interested to know Hannah, is the last camera location that picked up the white Alantra after the murders. So someone in a white Hyundai Alantra after the murders was heading home to the home that Brian Koberger lived in. That same day at approximately 12.58am WSU officer Curtis Whitman was looking for a white Hyundai Elantra

and located a 2015 white Hyundai Elantra at none other than 1630 North East Valley Road in Pullman in the parking lot. And like we said, this is the parking lot that one Brian Coburger lives in. And they actually ran the license plate of this particular car and found that it belonged to Brian Coburger. And this license indicates that Coburger was a white male with a height of about six foot, weighs 185 pounds and additionally the photograph of Coburger in his driver's license shows that he has bushy eyebrows. Coburger's physical description is consistent with the description of the male that DM saw inside the King Road residence on the 13th of November. So now they have the car and they have the fact that a car resembling this was in and making movements in the area at the time of the

murders, leaving the Washington State campus, heading to Moscow and then heading back to Portman. And when they pull this guy's driver's license, he looks like the guy that DM describes. Strike three, you are out of there. Yeah. So when they have all of this information, the police looked a little bit harder at this Brian Koberger and discovered that he was a PhD in criminology and that he had an undergraduate degree in psychology and cloud-based forensics. They also found a Reddit post that Koberger had made asking

participants to provide information to quote understand how emotions and psychological traits influence decision-making when committing a crime. That post has since been deleted but it does seem to be confirmed that it was Brian Koberger who made it. Now separately to the Koberger suspicions police had got a warrant to determine all cellular devices that had pinged off the towers in close proximity to 1122 King Road on the 13th of November 2022 between 3am and 4am, which is when we know that person would have been heading into that area to commit the crimes possibly. And people might be like,

how did they possibly get this? Isn't that illegal? Well no, since it's within a very specific time and an area in which the police said there shouldn't be many people apart from the people who lived there, this warrant was granted. And when they reviewed it against Koberger's number, his number wasn't actually one of the ones that had pinged off that tower in that timeframe. Now, of course, this wasn't much of a surprise. If he was the killer, what sort of killer would take their phone to the murders in this day and age? I mean, one who leaves a knife sheath in a bed, probably, but also not.

Possibly. But surely, Hannah, not one who has a cloud-based forensics degree. Yeah, he just missed out the actual physical forensics bit, just focused on the cybercrime. Yeah. And also interestingly, they discovered that he had actually applied for an internship with Moscow Police Department. I believe it was Moscow Police Department or a local police department, basically saying that he wanted to help rural police forces know how to use technology better. So anyway, I don't know if it's allegedly, allegedly, allegedly, it's him, but you know. So he thinks he's Dexter basically.

Sure. So when the police now requested a search warrant for Koberger's phone records between midnight on the 12th of November until midnight on the 14th of November, so basically encapsulating the entire sort of 24 hours around the murder, they now found something very interesting. They found that on the 13th of November at 2.42 a.m., Koberger's phone was in his apartment in Pullman, Washington. At 2.47 a.m., the phone, presumably not having grown legs and walking around on its own, left Pullman, traveling south. And this movement of the phone is consistent with the movements of the white Hyundai Elantra that the police attract all over the place

using CCTV and video cameras. Then soon after, so about an hour before the murders, because remember we know they happened about 4.04, the phone stopped reporting to any network. And this can only mean one of three things. Either the phone is in a place with no signal, or it's been switched off, or it's been put into aeroplane mode. And this phone did not report to a network again until 4.48am.

So from 3am until almost 5am, the phone is off the grid. And 4.48am is of course about 20 minutes after the murders had taken place. And dear listeners, would you like to take a guess as to where this phone was when it was turned back on? It was in Moscow, I'd hope. And at approximately 5.30am, the phone arrived back at Coburger's residence in Pullman, Washington. And again, all of these movements of the phone can be matched with the movements of the White

High and Dialantra. I've got no more strikes. It's not how baseball works. No, it's over. We're at the fucking pizza party after. And then… Suri's head is in her hands. On the 13th of November at 9am, the phone travelled from Koberger's flat to Moscow,

picking off the tower that covers the King Road house between 9.12am and 9.21am. So allegedly, Koberger went back to the scene of the crime about four and a half hours after the killings. And after this visit, the phone and the white Hyundai went back to Coburger's residence at 9.32am. What the fuck? So he leaves at like 4.30 after the murders are done and he comes back at 9.12am allegedly, the phone and the fucking car do. Why? Does he come back to see if the police are there?

Does he come back to like see the chaos of his work? Does he come back because he realised he fucking left the sheath there? And does he think he can get back into the house and get it out? Like we, I don't know. I don't know. But he's there for 10 minutes and we know that the police weren't there yet, because they didn't come until much later in the day. Because the 911 call hadn't been made yet. Presumably. So why didn't he go back in? And can I just say, if you're going back to the

fucking scene of the crime, why would you take your mobile phone with you? You know the way. Oh my god, I have headache. On the 23rd of December, investigators applied for a warrant for Koberger's phone records from the 23rd of June 2022. And unbelievably, they found that Koberger was in the King Road area a total of 12 times prior to November the 13th. So between the end of June 2022 and mid-November 2022, he had gone to that area 12 times with his phone. We don't know how many times without his phone. And every single one of those trips, bar one, were late at night or very early in the morning. And if he cannot show that he has a reason to be there, like a friend

who happens to live like literally on that street, there is no need to be on that road. It's a quiet residential, I don't want to say cul-de-sac because I don't know if it is, but it's like an off-road. There's no reason to go there unless you're going to somebody's house. Yeah, it's not like a thoroughfare. No, not at all. Four days later, on the 27th of December, police in Pennsylvania recovered rubbish from the Coburger family residents in Albrightsville. They compared the DNA found on the rubbish to that found on the sheath from the King Road house. And they identified that the DNA from the rubbish came from a man who could not be excluded as the biological father of the suspect profile, at least 99.9998% of the male population would be expected to be excluded from being the

suspect's father. Let's move from sports to games. Full house. Honestly, fucking bingo. Like they found the suspect's DNA in Moscow, Idaho, and then they find the suspect's biological father's DNA 2,500 miles away in the bins that have been left outside Brian Koberger's house. And he drives the same fucking car and was in the area 12 times. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It's mind boggling. So now police have DNA, the car, and the phone tower pings to place Coburger at the house the night all of those people died. So like we said, just to reiterate, we only have a fragment of what the police actually

have. This is just the probable cause affidavit. It is not the indictment. The probable cause affidavit basically just has to show like it's more likely it's him than it's somebody else at this point. So I heard people saying it's like 51%, definitely not beyond a reasonable doubt needs to be proven at this point. That's for the trial.

So the investigation is still very much ongoing. And there are already more reports that in the time that the police were surveilling Coburger after the killings but before the the arrest that he did some very odd things like clean his car intensively with surgical gloves on. I just, I can't, you wouldn't, I feel like the police watching him probably couldn't believe what they were fucking seeing. This guy comes out of his house late at night in winter and is basically taking his car apart and cleaning it quote like he was going to sell it. And then they also saw him taking the rubbish out at 4 apart and cleaning it, quote, like he was going to sell it. And then they also saw him taking the rubbish out at 4am and put it all into a neighbour's bin.

Because yes, the police and the FBI taking the bins outside the parents house to test for DNA, you're more than allowed to do that because apparently once you put your rubbish out, it becomes public property and it's apparently called like abandonment evidence. So this case, before we get any more information, is probably going to take the best part of a year to get to a trial and that's if Coburger continues to plead not guilty. And we're just going to have to wait until then to hear everything, possibly even later, because the judge in this case has actually put a gag order in place, which means that nobody's allowed to talk about anything to do with this case until there's a verdict.

But I do have to say that investigators on this case have seemingly nailed it. This is amazing work. And credit where credit's due, I'm not saying, you know, this is a conviction, it's far from that and we're going to have to wait for all the facts to be presented, including the defense's case, but it does look to be great work. And I'm saying that because the police took a lot of shit on this case. There were pundits milking this for all it's worth in the media, screaming, why did it take so long? Blah, blah, blah. It's like, that's fucking nonsense. The police had Koberger on their radar two weeks after the murders and had him in cuffs

four weeks later. For a case like this, and again he's presumed innocent until proven guilty, but for a case like this, an arrest after six seven weeks is remarkably fast. And quite a lot of the way the media have been covering this case is quite frankly embarrassing. And I say that because quite a lot of the press have spent the last week or so glamorising the fuck out of Brian Koberger. Ever since the press found out that the suspect was a PhD student in criminology, they've been pissing themselves with excitement. And we're not saying that it's totally irrelevant that he's a criminology PhD student. But quite a lot of news outlets are describing him as,

quote, a genius psycho and an evil mastermind. Shut up. Have a fucking day off. Honestly, before the probable cause affidavit, people were genuinely calling him a genius psycho. I couldn't listen. It was painful. It was painful. I mean, not genius enough to leave his fucking phone. Yeah, they all shut up after that fucking came out. A PhD in criminology does not a genius make, I am afraid. And if Coburger did do it, he's not smart enough to take the knife sheath with him, is he? Or not leave his DNA all over it and drive his own car? And he fucking switched his mobile phones off for the hour in which the murder happened?

Like no, no. So right now, he does not look like the sharpest pixie in the drawer or something. No. The brightest knife in the forest. Anyone who said that this whole genius nonsense about Brian Koberger is giving him far, far too much credit. Studying the subjects he did like psychology, criminology, cloud-based forensics, they would not give him a practical understanding of how to get away with murders. Which is what, by the way, the media were saying. They were basically scaremongering.

They were like, oh my god, are our universities teaching people like criminology in there? They weren't outright saying that, but that's what was heavily implied. And I was like, shut the fuck up. My god, shut up. This would not have given him a practical understanding of anything. I would be much more interested to say if he'd been a cop for years or like an FBI agent or something, but this academic understanding he had of criminology, which is basically sociology but about crime. No, this got nothing to do with anything and it certainly wouldn't

have told him all of the latest ways in which the police and the FBI investigate crime scenes. Which he wouldn't even fucking have to know because he left a fucking sheath behind, allegedly. So what else do we know about the not a genius psychopath Koberger? Well, for starters, he does seem to have been a pretty weird guy. I feel like, and this is my university experience, PhD teaching assistants are either the loves of your life or they are so fucking weird you don't want to be in a room with them. Or from my experience watching Girls When I Did Masters with, they're both. God. Oh man, I fancied so many tutors, it's such a problem.

I was not alone. It has been reported that Coburger had been flagged to local bar for inappropriate behaviour towards women. There's also video footage that's been leaked of him getting his diploma, his graduation, he's not smiling, nothing. Even as the provost smiles at him and hands him the scroll, which is his degree, and he seems to care quite a lot about it. It's just weird watching it. Like I was saying to you when I was like doing the research for this, like to have someone smile at you, especially in a moment of celebration, like

a graduation where they are one-on-one handing you your scroll and smiling at you. It's very hard not to smile back, but he doesn't. And again, like I'm not here to diagnose people, but like it's very like we see it in And again, like I'm not here to diagnose people, but like it's very like we see it in other killers like that shallow affect, the sort of like schizotypal style. But again, allegedly, I'm just saying it's an odd video. So we think it's pretty safe to assume that this is not a guy who's a cunning criminal mastermind who was, you know, Ted Bundy style, outwardly charming and charismatic like in the films.

No matter how much everyone seems to want that to be the case, it just isn't. No. Coburger was apparently bullied at school mainly by girls and mainly because of his weight, so he got into boxing and got fit, but still couldn't excel socially. So he became a bully instead and got into hard drugs, according to some of his classmates. According to his classmates, he went for like one of the hardest of all into heroin. Straight to the heroin. Definitely on heroin at points in his life.

Wow. Yeah. I just went on a day with my friends who just had a baby and there are two rules for parenting. No gambling, no needle drugs. Top. He's only five months, so I'm sure it'll be some time before they have to implicate either of those rules, one would hope. Man I don't know, burger vans and live streaming twitches, I don't know.

Koba also got a part-time security job at his high school after he graduated, weird, don't go back. Red flag, red flag. And again, we do know that killers typically crave power control and they love a uniform. But it is unusual that he went all the way to PhD level, we will give you that. But he did only complete one semester. So would he have finished keeping all of his urges in check, being told what to do, why people he thought were way more stupid than him? I doubt it. There's just no way to know.

There's no way to know. So motive, let's talk motive. As for that, what do we think? It's hard to say for sure because we do not have all of the information. But what we do know is that whoever did this, it was a highly organised but probably very inexperienced killer who wasn't expecting probably quite frankly the frenzy of the crime scene. There's like a fucking food delivery man turning up, there's a dog running around barking but also at the same time if it is Coburger

and he had made these multiple trips to the house did he not know that that could be the situation there? I don't know and also these multiple visits to the area if it was Coburger in the months leading up to it, scream to me of that high organisation. They scream of reconnaissance missions and pre-planning. A lot of people obviously do call this stalking behaviour. The fact that he was there, he seemingly was watching the victims. There's also a place that you can park outside of the house that's protected by like a little hill and it looks directly up into those massive patio doors that look into the kitchen. And on the first floor they have like an open plan kitchen living room, which is presumably

where they spent all of their time. And this was a party house. Two months before the murders happened, the police actually got called out there for a noise complaint to turn the music down and there was like a big party going on. I think he went there parked up and was watching them. It almost looks like a TV screen, like this patio. This again is actually back to Dr. Shiloh from LA Not So Confidential who made a very good point. She said, I know this is splitting hairs, but actually it's not stalking because it's casing, it's casing its intelligence gathering. Because stalkers, when it's not stalking because it's casing, it's casing its intelligence gathering because stalkers, when it's a case of stalking, they want the victims to be

scared. They want the victims to know that they're there, that they're being watched. Stalking, people who are being stalked know they're being stalked and the Uber driver who dropped Maddie and Kayleigh off that night back at the house before they got murdered said they did not have a care in the world. So it's not exactly stalking but you know. So it's not exactly stalking, but you know. So when I first started the research on this, I thought reading the things that his classmates had said about him, that it felt like the crime of a man who thought he was smarter than everybody else, right?

Someone who with, and we see this all the time, with a very little amount of knowledge about something, and I'm not saying a PhD is no knowledge, but with a little amount of knowledge, decided that everyone else was a moron and that he could kill and get away with the perfect murders. This was just my theory. And of course, complete speculation. But Koberger, according to master's classmates, would often talk over his professors, including Dr.

Catherine Ramsland, the world renowned serial killer expert who spent five years interviewing, talking to, writing letters to, meeting, playing chess with BTK to write her book about him. And also apparently he would always take like a contrarian viewpoint and talk down to everyone, like he knew the most about murderers, crime and the criminal mind, and he knew more than anyone ever could. So if it was Coburg, I thought that maybe he too knew all too well that the purely academic understanding of crimes that he was gaining, even if he had gone as far as interviewing serial killers, etc. would only get his knowledge so far. And maybe he thought to be the best, to dominate, to be an expert beyond anybody else, he had

to do it himself and get away with it. I couldn't help but feel like he has this kind of desperate need to be an expert in something, the kind of bullying of other people, the talking down to other people. It really seems like somebody who wanted to be the expert. And crime was just the topic he chose, right? And I think he picked it because he was probably interested in it. And I think he thought, I could spend years researching and interviewing offenders like my professor, Dr. Catherine Ramsland did, to become an expert in one crime or one killer. And Hannah, we know in this world of true crime, to become a sort of authoritative voice on one case or one criminal is sort of how you make your name.

Being a generalist will only get you so far. And I think he knew that, but I think he couldn't be fucking bothered with all the years of work that would take. And again, this is just a theory, but I thought, did he figure I'll commit my own crime, one that will get maximum media coverage because I'll pick the victims that I know will get the headlines. And then I'll make sure I get away with it because I'm such a genius. And then I'll get my PhD and then I'll become the expert in the unsolved Idaho student murders case.

Possibly he was thinking of even committing a series of killings. And then, you know, he can be the guy who's got all the interesting insights into this killer and he can make a name for himself. It's just a theory and like, I don't know. But my reasoning for why I thought this was why pick four victims? Did he pick four victims? We don't know. But why kill four people? And even if it was only one person that was the target, he went into a full house. So he either wanted or was okay with the enormous risk of needing to commit multiple homicides in one night. And like I said, he went after victims whose death would cause the most public uproar. We know that the reason that sex workers all too often become the victims of first time serial killers,

or would be serial killers, is because their deaths are less likely to be investigated. It's less likely to be a high profile case. But he went after literally the highest profile victims he could have. So I don't know, but I thought maybe he wanted sort of his own Delphi, one that this case that he could fully possess. He could carry on living in Washington Pullman while everybody was talking about it and be the expert. And also it would satisfy any violent fantasies that he also had, but it would also propel his career. I don't know. If this was the case it would be a highly cynical and practical act. And maybe I am guilty of spending too much time with this case and overanalyzing this crime.

Because something that does make me question this theory is why the overkill on Kayleigh Gonzalves. If it was a cool calculated killing, like let me commit the perfect crime Leopold and Loeb style thing, it's odd that we would see such rage with one victim. And we also know that Xana fought back because she had a lot of defensive wounds. She probably had the most defensive wounds but we didn't see that kind of overkill in her. And also if we're right in that assuming Kayleigh was the first to die, then she was probably the target. Now there could be other explanations for this overkill, we just don't have all of the facts yet. But one thing I would like to say is a lot of people on the internet,

well yes on the internet, but also in media, mainstream media. They all want to talk about incels now. They all want to talk about them. And now suddenly Brian Coburger is opposed to child for incel killings. And I just want to say, yes, there are people in the incel community who have started like a fucking GoFundMe to get him out, but like those people are severely troubled and of course they're going to fucking do that. But I do not think Brian Coburger, this is not an incel killing. I don't think so. I mean, unless there's a secret manifesto that we don't know about.

Precisely. But it doesn't feel like that to me either. No, incel killings follow a very specific pattern. Firstly, we've talked about incels before, but they are not naturally prone to violence. When they commit violence, they end up in mass casualties. But that's not the typical thing that happens. And when it does happen, like Hannah said, they leave a manifesto, there would be a trail on the internet of him having engaged with that community, because it's more akin to like a terror attack. They want people to know why they did it, who did this, they want to die for the movement, right? They want people to know that these girls were bitches and they deserve to die. Yeah, and it's in broad daylight,

it's never in the middle of the night. And they also never plan to leave. They always plan, like many terrorists do, to die at the scene, either by killing themselves or by suicide by cop. Not sneaking out of the door and going back to their lives. Whether it's Brian Koberger or not, the killer didn't die at the scene. But I'm not saying it's not perpetrated by rage against women or one particular woman. I'm just saying it's not in cell. Of course, Coburger is for now presumed innocent and we will have to wait and see what happens next. But the death penalty is very much on the table and police in Pennsylvania, where Coburger grew up, lived and studied until his PhD, are looking into other crimes that

may match his MO. And maybe they'll find something, maybe they won't. Let's just see. Yeah, I don't know. I guess people are saying it seems unlikely that a first time killer would go after a full house of victims. But we also know that people have psychopathic tendencies. We don't know if it's Koberger, but whoever did this certainly did have psychopathic tendencies are incredibly reckless. So it doesn't prove anything. But either way, fuck that guy, whether it's him or not. And let's end this episode by remembering Kayleigh González, whose dad said, and this just made me

really sad, he said that when Brian Coburger was caught, I always knew that whoever killed her wouldn't have been someone Kayleigh knew because no one who knew her could have hurt her. Maddie Morgan, whose boyfriend Jake remembers her as the sweetest person he'd ever met and the person he loved the most in the world. And Ethan Chapin, who like we said was a triplet with both of his siblings also at Idaho State. They'd all actually hung out the day before all this happened. And they say he'll always be remembered as the guy with the biggest smile. And Zana Knoedel who was described by her father as being strong-willed and highly independent.

Her dad said that he wasn't shocked to hear how hard she'd fought her killer and he asks people to keep her memory alive by donating to the college scholarship program that her family have set up in her honor. So yeah, that's it guys. That is, well, a pretty fucking probably mammoth episode to Kickstart Red Handed. What? Kickstart 2023 at Red Handed? I'm tired and sad. It's just such a fucking senseless crime. Yeah, that's the only thing. I know we do this every week, right? We talk about some horrible fucking person who's done something horrible or a series of horrible things. But the only thing I could think during the whole of this research was

what was the fucking point? Yeah. He's 28. If it is him, he's wrecked his life. He's ruined his family's life. He's killed four innocent people. He's left two people completely scarred beyond. And I don't want to sound incredibly nihilistic about DM and BF. I really, really hope that they go on to lead happy lives. But the chances are they're never going to get over this or ever be the same again. And he's just wrecked everything if it's him, allegedly. But whatever, we'll have to wait and see. We're probably not going to revisit this case now until after the trial because by all accounts, there shouldn't be any more information. So we'll do that. And you can go have a lie down now. You have my permission. And we will see you next time. Epstein is next.

It is. And we'll see you then guys. And happy new year. It's time for an update on Brian Co Coburger and the 2022 Idaho student murders. Can you believe it was 2022? It literally feels like it happened last night. That's three years. Can I believe it was 2022? No. No.

Good. Just had to double check. Good answer. That I was standing by what I was saying. Absolutely. So yesterday on the 1st of July, 2025, it was confirmed that Brian Koberger will be taking a plea deal in this case. And he will be pleading guilty therefore, to the 2022 murders of Kayleigh Gonzales, Maddie Mogan, Ethan Schaffen, and Zana Kanodal.

Now this case was probably the biggest true crime case, I would say of the last decade. If you but go anywhere near court TV, anything like that, YouTube talking heads, this was the case. It was enormous, absolutely enormous. And I'm gonna say probably one of the most hotly anticipated trials ever was set to

start on the 11th of August, 2025. Jury selection was going to start in just a few weeks. It was like people were gearing up for this shit and it was going to be fully televised. So big time, big news. Even up until Friday last week, Brian Coburger's defense team were still saying he was obviously innocent, blah, blah, blah. And they were still trying to delay the trial from starting on the 11th of August with his defense attorney, Anne Taylor, saying that she just wasn't ready. She wasn't ready to go to trial so soon, even though it's been three years. But the judge made it clear the trial is going ahead, like it or not. And obviously they didn't like it. So I can tell you as someone who has been following this case for the

past three years, since I wrote our episode on it back in 2023, I am shocked that it's ended in a plea deal. I am truly, truly shocked that it's ended like this. And I know some people may disagree with this, but I honestly think it's the best thing that could have happened, ending in a plea deal. Now I know that some of the victims' families, including Kayleigh's family, Kayleigh Gonzalves, they have come out and expressed quite a lot of anger at the fact that this decision has been made. They say that they feel let down, they say they wanted a trial, and most importantly, they wanted Brian Coburger to be executed.

Because if you remember, the death penalty was what the prosecution was going for. I completely understand why they're angry. I cannot even begin to imagine how they must be feeling with their 21-year-old daughter murdered by this maniac while she slept in her college house. But overall, I still do think it's for the best because Brian Coburger, make no mistake, he is going to prison for life. And part of the plea deal is no possibility of parole and no appeals.

He's waived his right to appeal. And it's not like an Alfred plea, right? Where he's not saying, I didn't do this, but I accept that the state has enough evidence to convict me of this, and therefore'm just gonna, just gonna take it. No, no, no, no, no, no. For this plea deal to be granted, he has had to or will have to, because I believe the plea change is happening today.

He will have to plead guilty to four counts of first degree murder. There is no if and spots like he has to say that he is guilty of those things in order to get this deal. And the deal is basically that they will take the death penalty off the table. No trial, no death penalty. You plead guilty, you go to prison for the rest of your life. That's the deal. And yeah, I think it was the right decision for Brian Koberger.

I think he has received pretty good counsel there from Anne Taylor because there was such a staggering amount of evidence against him, which I will get onto. But really, if they had gone to trial, from everything I can see, the only narrative that the defense could spin was that Brian Coburger was being framed by the police. That was pretty much the only story that they could tell. And that is kind of what they'd been claiming, right? If you remember the knife sheath, the K-bar knife sheath that was found in Maddie Mogen's bed with DNA on it, on like one of the brass buttons was a match to Brian Coburger and they obviously found that through the familial DNA testing that they did. Listen to our full episode on the Idaho student murders from

2023 for more information on that. Basically, this idea that he had been framed was what they were going for. It's too convenient. You found the knife sheath in the bed with his DNA on it. And I'm like, yeah. Do you think, and maybe I'm jumping the gun here, but do you think he, as in Brian Coburger, agreed to a plea deal? Because obviously he thought he was some sort of criminal mastermind, right? Do you think that having spent some time with actual legal professionals and they were like, no, like this is quite bad, he had to just accept that he wasn't going to get away with

it? Quite possibly. Okay. I absolutely agree with you that Brian Coburger thought he could wriggle out of this. I think that's what all of the delays were about. That's why he waves his right to a speedy trial. That's why he's bringing up all of this stuff about being framed. And also there was the defense's other sort of attempt at trying to curtail this by saying the good old-fashioned

some other guy did it, Defense. That was their other play that they wanted to go with. And they actually pointed the finger at four other specific men. We don't know who those men are, thank God, because the judge redacted their names, rightfully so. And they took it to the judge, and they even got DNA swaps from these men, because presumably they were like, well, I didn't fucking do it, so swab away. And they could not find a single match between any of their DNA and any DNA found at the crime scene. But guess whose DNA was there? Brian Koper. But of course he was framed, right? And I do think with regard to the whole framing conspiracy angle, I do understand and I do worry a little bit about this plea deal. That's

the only place I really worry about this because as you can imagine, as there always is these fucking days, there is a contingent of people out there on the internet who do think that this was a conspiracy, think that this was a cover-up, think, oh my God, this guy was a PhD in criminology. How could he possibly have left a knife sheath behind with his DNA on? Also like he hadn't completed his PhD I could you know he didn't have one yet and also like it doesn't mean anything it doesn't mean anything like oh my god people have PhD and like fucking you know why cats suck do you know what I mean like it's just no and I'm also like, I'm sorry. I think the reality of the situation, when you go into a house with six people in it

and you start a killing spree and a fucking PhD in criminology is going to prepare you for the physical and mental exertion that it's going to take no matter how much of a fucking psychopath you are. Because there is thinking that the girls who were downstairs, Dylan in particular, who saw, we can say Brian Koberger now because he's pleading guilty. Who saw Brian Koberger said the thing about the bushy eyebrows. You know, when we did the episode, we talked about why wouldn't he kill her? Why wouldn't he kill her?

But I genuinely think he was too exhausted. I think he was fucking done. He wanted to get out of that house. So PhD in criminology, I couldn't give a fuck, like whatever, but I do worry this plea deal, because everything isn't going to be aired out in a trial. There's going to be no cross-examination. There's going to be no like, you know, putting all of the state's evidence out for the world to see will further feed some of those people who are going down that road of Brian Koberger was framed. And this is a conspiracy. But you know, I don't think we need to worry about that too

much because those people are gonna say it probably regardless. But on the record, I don't think he was stitched up just in case. Look at the whole fucking Karen Reed mess. Like we know even when there is a trial, people will still sort of scream about that idea anyway. So yes, I think genuinely that the defense was just like,

and Taylor was just like, I don't know what you want me to say. I think that's what I would have to do. I was like, look, Brian, we gave it a really good go. You've had a fair shake, but it's over. Yeah. We have been at this for nearly three years. And unless you've got something else to give me. I'm just spending three years of your life on Brian Coburger. And I feel, you know, Anne Taylor and all of the people who have defended Brian Coburger, and I mean that strictly in a legal sense,

have come under a lot of fire, right, for taking on his case. I'm like, guys, how many fucking times do we have to say it? That's not what I mean at all. I know you don't. Criminal defense attorneys need to exist and, you know, it's a tough fucking job but someone's gotta to do it.

Absolutely. And everyone has a right to a fair trial. Absolutely. And I felt sorry for Ann Taylor. She came forward and she was like, well, I still believe my client is innocent. We have agreed to take this plea deal. I literally, I don't know. I don't know.

Maybe, maybe, maybe she didn't say that. I don't know. Let's double check that. But yes, I think Anne Taylor gave Brian Koberger very good counsel. I think she has done the right thing here. And there's a lot of people, I'll come on to talk about some more detail, but there's a lot of people very angry about this, angry about the plea deal being taken. And I do think it's unusual because often we will say, why is this fucking piece of shit who murdered these people wasting taxpayers' money, everybody's time, clogging up the court system, dragging

out this pantomime of a trial for three months, just admit what you did and let's move on. And that is what's happening. I'm not saying he's a noble person for doing it. He's literally done it to save his own ass because he didn't want to be executed because actually Idaho even brought back the firing squad. He could have literally been a firing squad to death. Quickest way to go. It is. And the only one… Most effective.

That is most effective, least botchings. But anyway, and yes, Kayleigh Gonzales' family in particular has come forward and said they're very upset because they wanted him to be executed, which I understand. But I also do have to say that I think in the long run, again, this is for the best because, as we well know and as well, you guys all know, death penalty cases come with years and years and years of appeals. There is no way, well, they wouldn't have executed him like next year. It would have gone for like 15, maybe 20 years. Oh, having a fucking rest. Yeah, yeah. He would have had a minimum of like three appeals that he could have brought forward for just the death penalty alone,

the stamina it would have required, and the way it would have held all of the families who have lost more than I can even imagine in that kind of zone, in that kind of permanent state of grief and pain. Again, I really do think it was for the best. And this is also saying that even if he had a trial, we don't know that he would have got the death penalty. The prosecution wanted the death penalty. They were pushing for that. But again, as we all know, the jury would have found him guilty. I do think they would have found him guilty. I think all of the evidence that will come on to talk about, I think the jury, it would have been, I hesitate to say a slam dunk case, again, see Carol and Reid, but I think the jury would have

found him guilty. But we don't know that in the penalty phase, they would have gone for the death penalty. We don't know that because in Idaho, it has to be unanimous for the penalty phase. All 12 of the jurors would have had to agree on the death penalty for Brian Koberger to have been executed. And the defense was already trying to work against this. So they were already making a lot of statements that I'm sure you saw about how Brian was autistic and all of this and how that was a mitigating factor. Yes. And so all it would have taken was for one juror, one juror out of 12 to

be like, yeah, actually I accept the idea that he has autism or something going on. And that's why he did this. And I'm not saying he shouldn't go to prison forever, but I don't agree with executing somebody who is, you know, got some sort of autism or something. I could see that happening. And then he wouldn't have got the death penalty anyway. So then you would have gone through the rigmarole of this painful trial and you still wouldn't have got the death penalty, which is what some of the families want. Yeah as you say like as much of a slam dunker as it may seem a lot of things can happen at trial. Oh you don't know what the jury would have done. It never would have been a certainty. No. I think I agree with you I think this is the only certainty there could have been.

Absolutely and also even if the jury had found him guilty, even if they had gone for the death penalty, I just don't want anyone to underestimate how bad this trial would have been. Like all of the gruesome details, the autopsies would have been published, everything would have come out, everything would have been picked over. And I just think I can understand why people out there who talk about true crime on the internet or, you know, these news channels are very upset because they wanted all those details. They wanted all of these people to testify.

But I want to say, I am so fucking glad. I'm so fucking glad this has not gone to trial. It's only really Kayleigh's family that we've heard from so far. I think Zana's uncle has spoken, maybe her dad, but it's still the other families are still very quiet. And I think it's because not the other families are still very quiet. And I think it's because not all of them wanted the death penalty anyway. But Kayleigh's family have definitely come out and said they are obviously upset that they feel like they will

now never find out why Brian Coburger did this. And I can again understand why you would feel that way because again, the trial feels like this, this resolution, this like climactic event that gives you some form of closure. I would argue that it wouldn't have probably, even if they'd executed him, I don't know that it would have made them feel better in the long run. I think closure is a myth. I think closure is a myth in any scenario. I don't think it exists. I think it's something that people chase because they think it's going to make them feel better. I don't think it ever really does. I don't think this would have. And also the idea that Brian Coburger telling them

why he did it. Firstly, there is no guarantee, in fact, very little possibility that he would have said at trial or it would have come out at trial why he did this because Brian Coburger was pleading not guilty. So he's not going to tell you why he did it. And it's very unlikely

that he would have even taken the stand. If I was fucking Anne Taylor, I wouldn't have put him on the fucking stand. He's such a weirdo. He would not have played well with the jury. And there is no likely scenario that I could see where he would have given a satisfactory explanation as to why he did it. Even if he does it now, because he's obviously, he's pleading guilty now, some people suspect that he is such a narcissist that he'll give lots of interviews and want to talk about himself. I don't think he will. I personally think he will just keep quiet about the whole situation to have some sort of air of mystery around him. I think it'll probably make him fade into obscurity even more, especially because he didn't have a trial.

I think he'll write his autobiography. That's very possible. But I think whatever answer he gives in there, it will never be satisfying because really, why has he done this? He's done this for some sort of sexually motivated reason. I think that's a fair estimation. It's going to be like a Dennis Nelson or a Rodney Arcala where it's just like, you didn't see it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do you know what I mean?

I believe you because I don't think he'll give lots and lots of interviews. I think he may well just write a book like you say. Yeah. He's all on his terms. He's not going to want to give the narrative to anybody else. Absolutely. And I also take the point that, you know, some of the families have come out and said that it feels like he's taken all the power. He's had all the say. It was all up to him. He got to take this plea deal and it's all on his terms. I understand that, but I really, really, really do think it was just

for the best. And a lot of people on the internet and particularly these news channels and YouTube true crime channels are saying how appalling it is. The Gonzales' family's feelings weren't taken into consideration when this decision was made. And I get it. I do. I get that people want to be victims, rights advocates. They have all this empathy and sympathy for this family who have gone through something so unbearable. This is the state of Idaho versus Brian Koberka. Yes, I agree. And the families absolutely have the right in law, not just ethically or morally, absolutely have the right to be kept in the loop about every single decision that's made, but they don't have a say

in those decisions, as harsh as that might sound. And listening to some prosecutors who have been interviewed about this, talking about this decision, they've said, do you know how hard it is to even get one family of maybe say three or four people when one victim has been murdered to agree on what the best outcome is? Whether we should go to trial, whether we should give a plea bargain, whatever. Imagine now you have four families. You cannot get everybody's say. You can't get everybody's input and then make a decision that makes everybody happy. It's impossible. They will have taken the decision that they thought was the most likely guarantee to get Brian Coburger behind bars for the rest of his life. They should be able to do witness-impact sentencing. They are doing that.

Yeah. They are doing that. So that is happening. Not today, which I believe is the plea change hearing, though there's obviously also a lot of controversy about that because another right that victims' families do have is to be at all of these hearings. And they very quickly announce this. And some of them don't live in the area and they're like, I can't get there by Wednesday. I need to book flight tickets, et cetera. So I don't know if it will happen today, but it's going to happen imminently. And absolutely, they will be reading victim impact statements. The plea deal says life, but at least they will get to tell their story. And also, if

you think about it, how much should victims' families and victims have a say in things like sentencing or in things like plea bargain decisions or whether something goes to trial because take the Gonzalves for example, their daughter was murdered in her bed. Of course, they want to kill the man that they believe did it. But isn't that why the state takes over and dispassionately oversees these kinds of cases? I mean, there is no other option because obviously in this situation, I'm sure they are great people, but you can never guarantee that.

So there can't be some blanket thing of like, well, the families of the victims, the survivors, get to have a say because they could be anybody. And also like, even the best person in the world, if you murdered my daughter or my mom or my dad or I'm gonna want to have you fucking killed. So it's that passion, it's the dispassionateness. Yeah and I think I mean generally you see sort of surviving family members do sort of advocacy stuff afterwards. I think that's a very positive way of going about it but I just don't think there

can be an argument for the way the justice system handles it to be changed. I think it needs to be a set standard. And I think the prosecution should be responsible for making those decisions. As hard as that might be for people to understand when they rightly, when they see the pain on Kayleigh Gonzales, Gonzales as his father's face when he's talking about this. And I, you know, challenge anybody to watch him speak and be as upset as he is at this decision and not feel heartbroken for him. But ultimately I still believe that this is the right decision. Another question for the table, because this is a question I've seen thrown around

quite a lot on, on the interwebs of the last few hours is, has justice been done? If Brian Koberger takes his plea deal and goes to prison for the rest of his life without having to go to trial, has justice been done for the victims? I think we have, because of emotional investment in things, I think justice and an eye for an eye can be confused quite often, especially when it comes to things like the death penalty. I don't think justice does mean an eye for an

eye. No. And I do personally think, yes, justice has been done. I think I'm with you on that, yeah. And some people are, you know, criticizing the state of Idaho, the prosecution saying they're taking the easy road out, that they didn't want to go ahead with possibly what would have been, you know, a three, four month long ruling truck, four murders, and then have to go through the countless appeals that would have been lodged after this, and that they've kind of taken the easy route, the coward's route. And I'm like, I don't see

that at all from my perspective. I'm like, the police in this case fucking smashed this investigation. We were all sitting around when these murders happened. We were like, they're never going to fucking catch this guy. Within six weeks, they had arrested Brian Koverger. So within weeks, they already had their man because remember they were trailing him when he was driving cross country with his dad after the murders. So I think the police did an amazing job. The prosecution put together a fantastic case with the police. A case that was so good that Brian Koberger, despite every attempt he was trying to make to derail this situation was like, yeah, right. Fair enough. So I don't know,

can we criticize a prosecution and a police force and an overall like, you know, state for putting together a case that is so strong that the defendant is like, yeah, all right, whatever. You got me. I plead guilty. That doesn't seem like the easy way out. That seems like you've done your fucking job. So I kind of push back on that idea that the prosecution is taking the easy way out because... Yeah. And I think there is an additional misconception of like what you were saying earlier of how long it actually takes to kill someone on death row. It's fucking decades. Like it's not going to happen next week and then it's all over and done with. Like that's just not how it fucking works.

So ultimately I do think justice was done. He is going to prison for life. No appeals, no release, no parole. Brian Coburger, he's only 30 years old. He's done. This is it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And if he does, I've seen a lot of people being like, he can never have an appeal.

He could change his mind. He could change his mind once he's in prison, but if he does do that, then it will go to trial. And if it goes to trial, I don't think the fact that he took this fucking plea in the first place is going to play in his favor on top of all of the other evidence they have against him. Yeah. So honestly, best decision all around. And I think the people who are on court TV and things like that, who are very angry about the fact that this has ended the way it has,

I mean, let's be honest, they're just pissed about all the ratings they're not going to get. It screams of it. I was watching it and some of them are very good. Honestly, I think there's Court TV. I don't want to use the wrong names because I can't remember what any of them are, but I think Court TV has done very good coverage on this. They haven't been sensationist. They haven't been like, oh my God, this is a travesty just because we're going to lose all the ratings that we would have enjoyed from months and months and months of wall-to-wall coverage of a televised, incredibly anticipated trial. Some people like Vinnie Politano, oh my god, I just watch it and I'm like, stop it. It's so transparent why you're so angry about this and they dress it up like it's on behalf

of the victim's families and I'm like, no it fucking isn't. That drives me up the fucking wall. It's so disingenuous. I can't stand it. It's so disingenuous because I am like, I understand why the victims' families who are upset are upset. But you as a person, he's a fucking former prosecutor, and you as a person who understands this landscape, this true crime landscape, this legal landscape, and how gruelling it would have been for them if it had gone to trial and the appeals it would have meant after, you shouldn't be feeding into this narrative that they have been fucked over because that's how they feel. And I understand why they feel that way.

You should be saying, I'm so, I'm so sorry that this happened to you. I understand why you feel that way. But ultimately I do agree that this was for the best. And I'm not saying patronize them or anything like that, but don't feed into the rage they feel because you know, it's not true. You know, this was for the best. You know better than that. But whatever. Let's talk about what happened. Why do we think that Brian Koberger took this deal? So very quick timeline. Like I said, up until literally last Friday, he was like, we want to delay. We want to delay in this trial. We're still going ahead. And

I didn't do it. And apparently it was over the weekend that the prosecution sent the plea deal over to his defense team for him to take a look at. And they pretty swiftly agreed to it because we were already starting to hear rumors about it apparently on Monday. And then it was confirmed on Tuesday by Katie Gonzales, his father who went online and posted about it. Now, some people are speculating that Brian Koberger agreed to this plea deal to save his family from having to testify. Because as we know, Brian Coburger couldn't be, if it had gone to trial, wouldn't have been able to be compelled to testify. But I think the same can't be said for his parents. They would have been compelled to testify because, and

this has only recently been revealed, apparently he called his mum at 6am the morning of the murders. Because if you remember, he broke into the house at 4am, does the killings, drives home. And he calls his mum at 6am and he spoke to her for over an hour. We don't know what was said in that call, don't know anything, but there is no planet on which Brian Koberger's mum would not have been forced to testify about what was the content of that conversation. And then also his father, because if you remember his dad comes and picks him up to drive him across the country for days to get home

for the Christmas holidays. And again, he would have been absolutely compelled to testify to talk about the content of the conversations they had in that car. And apparently, and again, this is the first time I'm hearing this, also allegedly his sister suspected Brian Koberger, and she told her father that she suspected him. All of these people would have been dragged. Oh.

All of these people would have been dragged. Yes, subpoenaed. Into the dock. And so some people say that he did it to spare them. I don't know. But aside from this, I think taking the plea deal probably just comes down to the fact that he didn't want to be executed and there was a hell of a lot of evidence against him. So just to quickly talk about specifically what evidence they had against him, because we

found out a whole lot of new things since we recorded our episode. Now obviously we had the knife sheath that was found in Maddie Mogens bed that had Brian Coburger's DNA on it. They also had Amazon searches and purchases for the K-Barn knife and the sheath and a mask that were made in the days before or in the months before them that were made in the months before the murder. And then interestingly, in the days after the murder, Brian Coburger went back on Amazon and clicked on the knife sheath and the knife, the same exact knife sheath and the same exact knife again, but he didn't complete the purchase.

But it really looks like he was trying to buy a replacement set. So if the police ever came knocking, he would be able to say, it's not my sheath, here's my sheath, even though a look at his fucking Amazon account would have showed that he had purchased it twice. Well, you know, he does have a PhD in criminology. So I keep being told. And they also have, of course, so much CCTV footage of his car on the night in the area and also the phone data that corresponds with the car. It was all very complicated. Listen to our episode on it for all the details, but it basically all completely matches up. This is another thing that we only recently

discovered. Brian Coburger's defense was also having a massive problem because all of the witnesses, they were trying to get to testify on behalf of Brian Coburger. So people who would maybe come and give character references, character references, character testimony, whatever, to say, oh no, he's a cool guy, I know him several years ago. They had all started to pull out. And I don't believe you can compel character witnesses. I might be wrong. I don't think you can subpoena them. Yeah. Well, I don't know, because Cassie's mate was subpoenaed, wasn't she? I don't know, I should have checked that.

I mean, maybe you can, but maybe the defense were like, it's not worth it. And basically they were all like, yeah, we don't wanna testify in this case because it's a fucking televised trial and he's deeply unpopular and he's committed, most likely a very heinous crime. And they all said that the reason they didn't want to testify was because they were worried

about the fallout from this case for them personally, if they testified on his behalf. Which is like a whole other issue that I feel like is worth talking about because obviously it is far from ideal to have a justice system where potential witnesses are too scared to testify because of the social media and possibly in very real life consequences they might face as a result of doing so. Just take the Karen Reed case again. Kids, people who were kids at the fucking time who had to testify at the trial got death threats, hate mail,

aggressive comments on social media, people dancing outside John O'Keefe's fucking family house after it. I feel like there is a big problem and I think it highlights this kind of issue of aggressive transparency in the US justice system that can also lead to this problem where people are potentially too scared to even testify. And I don't know what you think of that because obviously the situation is different in the UK and in Australia, as we're finding out with the Aaron Paterson trial, like there's a lot more, it's a much more opaque system where that much isn't revealed. We certainly don't have televisions, like camera crew inside the courtroom. And then you end up with cases like Brian Coburger, where from day one, people could have sat and would have sat and watched every single day of this televised

trial and played jury and detective all at once, made up their own minds and also played fucking, I don't know, executioner afterwards and gone after the people that they didn't like. And I do feel like that is quite a dangerous thing for a justice system, is it not? I agree. I think, unfortunately, the cat was out of the bag the second they decided to televise Bondi's trial. I think it was all over then, because there's no way you can't pull it back now because it makes too much money. We don't even allow photographers in courtrooms in this country. And I get it. I think it's such a fine line, isn't it? Because look what happened with Lucy Letbee. So much of that case was like smothered by the fact that we didn't have

all of the information when the trial was going on. And so then it leads to miscarriages of justice. We've talked at length before about the UK system and how here, if you're convicted, good fucking luck. Like you're not getting an appeal unless you have brand new evidence, typically only really DNA evidence. And also, yeah, just the fact that under that kind of lack of transparency, how much faith can people have in the justice system? And I think we're starting to see a backlash of that with all the like let be truthers now, but then you can go the whole other way. And then you have a system that is like, aggressively transparent. TV cameras in here, we're showing you all exactly what whole other way. And then you have a system that is like aggressively transparent.

TV cameras in here were showing you all exactly what's going on. You can interview the jurors after all of that on the surface. I kind of agree with it. But then I'm like, people are real fucked up and look at what happens to people when they get sucked into these trials. And it's yeah. Yeah, I think. I don't know what the answer is. Yeah, it's just going to have to be the lesser of two evils, isn't it? I just don't know which one that is. No.

I don't know, I'm just a baby. And okay, I will end this update by talking about the Dateline documentary that came out about this. And I re-listened to our episode on Idaho student murders on the way into work this morning. And like the last thing I say in that episode is we won't do an update on this until the trial happens, because, you know, rightfully so, as it should be, we

won't get any new information about this case until that happens. And if you guys remember with this case, there was a gag order put in place, all sorts of attempts made to stop information being leaked about it. Uh, but she was leaky. Because this Dateline documentary, I don't even know this documentary, I don't know what the fuck to call it. It's over two hours long. And it is purely based on massive leaks that came out of the prosecution, right? That couldn't have come from any prosecution police somewhere, right? My God, the information they had in this documentary, I could not believe it.

Oh, god. It is mind boggling. So the documentary is called One Terrible Night on King Road. It's a good name. It's a good name. I'll give them that. It's very unscrupulous though. Is it? I mean, I quite like it. Is that a good name? One Terrible Night on King Road. I don't know. It looked quite good when the font, they had it up. I'll say it. Okay, sure. And this documentary, god, the information they right? They had stuff that we had never, ever seen before, including things like Brian Coburg, like what the police sound on Brian Coburg's phone. Now, I don't think we even know everything they had against him, but this is just

what we got from this documentary. That on his phone, they had found pictures of women who went to Idaho University, the same university as the victims and as himself. And some of these girls, I want to call them women, but they're so young, 20, I think you're still a girl, 20 years old, these people who, some of them were friends with the victims. So there is like a connection. I know they did specifically say they didn't find any connection to Kayleigh, Zana or Maddie, but they found pictures on his phone of girls that they were friends with, so immediately you're starting to make a connection like in

their youth, that kind of thing. They also seemed to have, because if you remember, we talked about it in the episode that we did, we didn't know who the true intended victim of this mass murder was because he killed four people. We suspected actually, I think we, I think we said in our episode, um, that we thought it might have been Kaylee, but actually the documentary makes a good point and kind of how seems to have a bit more information about this. It looks like Maddie was killed first.

And the reason I say it was a good point is I believe it was Maddie's room that Kaylee and Maddie were found in. So it would make sense that he would go to her room looking for Maddie and was shocked by the fact that Caley and Maddie were both there. So again, they seemed to have quite a lot of information about who died first, which again hadn't been confirmed before. And they also, and this just blew my mind, they also revealed pre-trial, the frankly shocking information. You remember the door dash Zana ordered. Yeah. So they'd gone on a night out.

They'd come back 4 AM. Zana orders a door dash. It comes video footage of the door dash delivery driver being interviewed in a separate case. She's drunk. She's been arrested for a DUI where she is saying that she is the door dash driver who delivered the food to Zana that day. And she says she saw Brian Coburger.

The defense would definitely have challenged her because, you know, she's being arrested for a DUI when she's giving this information, but it does look like that is the case. It does look like she came forward and said that she saw Brian Coburger there. And it's all very compelling and backed up by CCTV and like official information. And I again, stand by the fact that I think it was the best thing, because again, would the defense not have made a huge deal about the fact that that documentary was made?

They did when it came out, but again, how can you guarantee a fair trial after that's happened? But also I appreciate that's not the standard in the US because you can make documentaries like that. We can make podcasts like the one we did, but we did. I do remember, I did listen to it, as I said, and we do again and again and again, say allegedly. We don't know if he did it, but you know.

So yeah, that's the update on Brian Koberger. And if you guys want all of the details from the original investigation, like we've been referencing multiple times in this update, we did an absolute mammoth episode. It was over an hour and a half long back in January 2023. And you can just do it right now on Red Handed, wherever you get your podcasts. Inspired by the hit, Wondery podcast, Against the Odds, comes the gripping guidebook, How to Survive Against the Odds, Tales and Tips for Animal Attacks and

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