Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 1017 | Dr. Tony Evans Steps Down Over Secret Sin

Starting point is 00:00:00 Dr. Tony Evans, the pastor of a megachurch in Dallas, has stepped down from his role because of a secret sin. Also, the Southern Baptist Convention is meeting this week in their annual conference, their amendment, the resolutions they are going over could potentially have a big impact, not just on the denomination, but on this political and cultural moment as a whole. Also, we've got updates on Campus Crusade for Christ, and they're very troubling developments. when it comes to the curriculum that they are offering their staff. We've got all that and more on today's episode of Relatable. It's brought to you by our friends at Good Ranchers. Go to GoToToRanchors.com. Use Code Allie at checkout.

Starting point is 00:00:40 That's goodmanters.com, code Alley. Hey, guys, welcome to Relatable. Happy Tuesday. Hope everyone is having a wonderful week so far, a wonderful summer so far. All right, today we are diving into all things church-related and even Baptist-related more specifically. Yesterday I saw the news on X that Tony Evans is stepping down from his pastoral role. This is a really big deal. Dr. Tony Evans is the longtime pastor of Oak Cliff Bible Fellowship, a large church, a mega church even in Dallas. And he has stepped down from his role because of a secret past sin. And I say a secret sin because in the statement that he released on his website and that now has been widely circulated, he really doesn't say what this past sin was that has now come to light and has caused him to step down. So here is an excerpt of that

Starting point is 00:01:53 statement. And the excerpt is pretty long, but this is only about a third of what he said in total. The foundation of our ministry, he writes, has always been our commitment to the word of God as the absolute supreme standard of truth to which we are to conform our lives. When we fall short of that standard due to sin, we are required to repent and restore our relationship with God. A number of years ago, I fell short of that standard. I am, therefore, required to apply the same biblical standard of repentance and restoration to myself that I have applied to others. I have shared this with my wife, my children, and our church elders, and they have lovingly placed their arms of grace around me. while I have committed no crime, I did not use righteous judgment in my actions. In light of this,

Starting point is 00:02:37 I am stepping away from my pastoral duties and am submitting to a healing and restoration process established by the elders. This will afford me a needed time of spiritual recovery and healing. So there are a lot of guesses that we could probably make if it wasn't something that was criminal. That means it probably wasn't financial. And so we can maybe deduce what possibly happened here, but we just don't know. He hasn't offered any specificity here. No matter what it is, the fact that he is stepping down from this role is really significant. This is a blow to a lot of people.

Starting point is 00:03:12 This is obviously a blow to his church. His impact is huge. He has pastored this congregation for almost 50 years. Most of us cannot imagine doing the same thing for 50 years. Of course, that's a lot longer than I've even been alive. So being committed to any vocation, but certainly the demands of ministry, it's very impressive. Just that number speaks for itself. He has also led a teaching ministry for more than 40 years called the Urban Alternative.

Starting point is 00:03:42 It's reached millions of people around the world. He's had a lot of good work over the years. I am not someone who has listened to him or read him consistently, but I did start paying attention to him more over the past several years, as he has very intentionally spoken into the political climate and the political, cultural, social moment that we're in. He has done so, I think with a lot of care and a lot of intentionality, I don't know that I would say that I've agreed with everything that he has said, but I can commend him for the courage that it takes to step into these very controversial waters when a lot of pastors

Starting point is 00:04:24 are too cowardly to do that. They don't want to shepherd their congregations in that way, even when their congregations are demanding clarity, are demanding to be led, to be helped navigate these turbulent waters of the culture and political wars. A lot of pastors say, nope, I don't want to offend people. I don't want to make people mad, so I'm just not going to speak to that or I'm going to dance around it. And he didn't do that. And I appreciate that about him. Other pastors will jump wholesale into the progressive narrative because that's the popular thing to do. And he also didn't do that. There are multiple things, I'm sure, maybe theological, politically that we don't agree on. But I know a lot of people have really been positively impacted

Starting point is 00:05:13 by the work that God has done through his ministry. And I'm thankful to that or for that. All that to say, I do think from my perspective, take that for what it's worth, that he owes his congregation more clarity than his statement gave. He may not owe the internet clarity, but I do think that he owes his congregation specificity. I remember a couple of years ago, we talked about it on this show when Matt Chandler had to come forward and say that he had fallen short of the biblical standard for a Christian, a biblical standard for a husband and a pastor. He stepped down from his pastoral position because of that. And he had to say what he had done, which was engage in messages with a woman at his church that were not sexual in nature, but he described them as too familiar, as maybe bordering on flirtatious, just not appropriate for married people, course, joking. And he had to admit this, confess this in front of his congregation. And this was put online. And of course, it was talked about

Starting point is 00:06:30 in the media. I'm sure that that was not easy. That was not easy for him. That takes a lot of humility. It was not easy for his family, I'm sure. But I see that as part of the consequence of unwise choices, especially when you are in a position of shepherding and authority that is part of the repercussions of not acting in a way that exemplifies the self-control and the above-reproach way of life that really we're all supposed to lead as Christians, but again, especially pastors. So I don't think pastors, as I said, are obligated to confess to every single person. on earth, but yes, to the congregation that you lead. So maybe Dr. Evans will be more specific and clear about that to them in the future. I'm not sure. Maybe they have their reasons right now

Starting point is 00:07:29 for the vagueness, but just from my vantage point reading what I've read, I think that he owes more specificity than this. The euphemisms just cause, I think, a lot of confusion and even more instability, a lot of questions, unfortunately, rumors, gossip, and things like that. So I hope that he clarifies. But whatever that looks like, we should pray for Dr. Evans, pray for his church. We should pray the Evans that he would be sanctified, that he would be built up by God's grace, that he would be spurred towards holiness, pray for his family, pray for their strength, pray that the gospel continues to go out from his ministry, all the resources that they've created

Starting point is 00:08:12 over the past half century, that it would go out unhindered, that his congregants would not waver even a centimeter in their faith, that they would remember that Christ is the anchor, that he is the author and the finisher of our faith. Our faith rests upon a perfect Savior who will never let us down, who will never fail to meet the standard on our behalf, and who will never, ever fail us in any way. We don't rest our faith upon imperfect pastors or teachers or politicians or influencers. Our faith rests upon Christ. Hebrews 138 says that Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever. And praise God that we worship someone who is perfectly holy, that he who knew no sin became sin so that we could become the righteousness of God.

Starting point is 00:09:18 That is where our faith, our steadfast assurance comes from right there. And keep this in mind. This is important for all of us to keep in mind. 1. Peter 5-8 through 10, be sober-minded, be watchful, sober-minded and watchful. Your adversary, the devil, prowls around like a roaring lions, seeking someone to devour, resist him, firm in your faith, knowing that the same kinds of suffering are being experienced by your brotherhood throughout the world. There's so much comfort in that. And after you have suffered a little while, the God of all grace, who has called you to his eternal glory in Christ will himself restore, confirm, strengthen, and establish you. The devil is your enemy prowling around like a lion looking for someone to attack to devour.

Starting point is 00:10:14 So every time we are tempted towards sin, whether it be gossip, whether it be lust, whether it be adultery, theft, deceit, whatever it is, that feeling that we have that yes, that would satisfy my flesh, that would satisfy my longings right now. Just remember that that temptation, that pull that you are feeling towards that sin is from someone who hates you, who wants to destroy you, destroy your witness,

Starting point is 00:10:45 harm you physically, mentally, spiritually, destroy your family, hurt your community because that's what Satan does. He brings chaos. He brings destruction. So every time you are tempted towards sin, as good as that sin, might feel in the moment, know that it is coming from someone who wants to kill you and destroy you.

Starting point is 00:11:07 That can change our perspective on things. And God does not tell us to do anything in his word that he cannot then empower us to do. Yes, it might seem impossible to resist whatever sin or to overcome whatever obstacle is in front of you. But through God, all things are possible. He will equip us to resist that sin. So it's a good reminder, a humbly reminder for all of us that no one is above that temptation. But thankfully, God gives us the power to resist that sin. All right. So the Southern Baptist Convention is meeting right now. They're meeting in Indianapolis, which as an aside, Indianapolis Airport is in my top five favorite airports. So for everyone who is flying into Indianapolis right now, that's great. I'm really happy for you. If you've never flown into the

Starting point is 00:12:13 Indianapolis airport and you are this week, don't you agree that it is one of the best airports ever? That GSP love field, those are the best, worst, Charlotte, Orlando, Atlanta. Yeah. So that's that on that. I can't talk about Indianapolis without talking about the fact that it makes my top five favorite airports. But also, the SBC is meeting there this week. They've got their annual conference and they meet every year to go over things like amendments and resolutions and to make sure that all of the churches are generally on the same page. There's a lot that goes on there, a lot of drama. They vote on the SBC president, all that good stuff. We've covered that over the past few years. And there is typically some kind of culture war question that is being debated

Starting point is 00:13:06 at these conferences, especially in the last several years. They've debated Resolution 9, Critical Race Theory, what the Southern Baptist Convention believes about critical race theory. And they've also, over the past couple of years, had a debate about female pastors. This is really kind of an age-old debate. This is something that has been debated in the SBC for a long time. even though the Baptist faith and message, which is just the statement of beliefs of the Southern Baptist Church, is very clear on this.

Starting point is 00:13:46 It says, while both men and women are gifted for service in the church, the office of pastor, elder overseer is limited to men as qualified by scripture. And they are citing 1 Timothy 209 through 14, 3 1 through 5, 414 when it comes to that and some of the other things. things in the segment of the Baptist faith and message. So technically, the Baptist faith and message, the Southern Baptist Convention, is officially very clear on this. They are a complementary, like complementarianism is what I mean by that, a denomination for the most part. And yet there churches that are a part of this denomination, which is the largest Protestant denomination in the country, very influential, has a lot of impact in politics as well, that do have female pastors. This was a big deal last year when the SBC decided that Rick Warren's huge church in California

Starting point is 00:14:47 saddleback was no longer in friendly cooperation with the denomination because they had a female pastor. And Rick Warren came out very explicitly and loudly in favor of female pastors. And so now they're looking at something called the law amendment introduced by a pastor named Mike Law of Arlington, Virginia. And here's what religion news this news source says about it. Southern Baptist could take the debate over women pastors to a new dimension as the nation's largest denomination holds its annual meeting this week in Indianapolis, local church representatives, or messengers will be asked to vote a second time to amend the Southern Baptist Convention Constitution. To state that one way a church is considered to be in, quote, unquote, friendly cooperation is if it, quote, affirms appoints or employs only men as any kind of pastor or elder as qualified by scripture.

Starting point is 00:15:45 At last year's annual SBC gathering, messengers affirmed the decision to no longer affiliate with the well-known Saddleback Church due to his pastors on staff as well as a Kentucky church led by a woman. So the reason that Pastor Mike Law of Arlington, Virginia has introduced this clarifying amendment that would amend the Constitution if it gets enough votes is this. He said, when an unbeliever looks for a Southern Baptist church in my area, we want them to find a church that holds the Bible's teachings and our convention's beliefs. And I would say it's not just an unbeliever. Like if I moved to a new city and I decided, okay, like I want to go to a Baptist church. somewhere in my area because I am Southern Baptist, I've been Southern Baptist my whole life. Like I would just want to be able to trust that, okay, that Southern Baptist Church is going to align with scripture, align with what the Bible says about female pastors, female teachers.

Starting point is 00:16:42 And so I understand the need for clarification. Some people are saying the law amendment is not necessary because the Baptist faith in message already says what I read to you. But clearly it does need to be clarified. And it's adding this that not only does it need to be clarified, but it's also saying that if you have a female pastor at a church, you are no longer going to be in friendly cooperation with the SBC. So there are a lot of people clearly who are in support of this. First Timothy 212 through 13 says, I do not permit a woman to teach her to exercise authority over a man. Rather, she is to remain quiet for Adam was formed first than Eve. And that is speaking in the context of preaching, teaching over men in congregation.

Starting point is 00:17:29 Now, there is debate over whether that, how narrow that is, is that just in the local church on Sunday mornings, is that also does that mean or include preaching at conferences? There is some debate over the broadness of this, the narrowness of this. We've talked about that, gotten into all of that. that on this podcast before. But that's not really what this law amendment is about. It's not even really talking about complementarian versus egalitarian in that regard. It's not talking about the broadness or the narrowness of 1st Timothy 212. To my understanding anyway, it's just talking about

Starting point is 00:18:11 the office of pastor. And if a church has a woman that is filling the office of pastor, they are going against the Baptist faith and message. They are clearly going against scripture when it describes what this office is supposed to be, and so they can simply not be qualified as a Southern Baptist Church. So, of course, there's going to be plenty of debate about that online. There certainly are a number of churches and a number of clergy people within the Southern Baptist convention who believe that it's fine for a woman to hold the office of the pastor. It's common in a few different kinds of churches, but a lot of predominantly black churches that are associated with the Southern Baptist Convention have a female pastor or like the wife of the pastor will be

Starting point is 00:19:04 called pastor or even the woman that's over the children's ministry, like she might be called pastor. And so there's just, there's a lot of discussion about what the consequences of this, what the consequences of this will be. So that's something that. that you can look out for over the past couple of days. I think it's probably expected to pass that this will become an amendment to the Constitution. Personally, I think that that's right. That that clarity obviously is necessary because a woman is not supposed to hold the office of a pastor. Women are valuable.

Starting point is 00:19:41 They have so much to offer to the church. And the Holy Spirit has empowered and specially equipped so many women to contribute to the cause of the gospel and to advance the kingdom. But as 1 Timothy 212 says, it is rooted in creation, why women are not supposed to be pastors and exercising authority over men in church. Then there is also the IVF resolution. And let me just, before I even say what the IVF resolution is, let me clarify something.

Starting point is 00:20:12 Let me define our term. So what is a resolution? A resolution is a non-binding statement that expresses the collective will of the messengers present at that SBC annual meeting, even if a resolution is passed unanimously, no entity and no individual is actually required to abide by it. So there could be a pastor that disagrees with what this resolution says. That doesn't mean they're not in friendly cooperation with the SBC. Obviously, an amendment is a much bigger deal because it is supposed to be a binding being part of the Constitution that all of the churches are to adhere to. And resolution is just saying,

Starting point is 00:20:53 look, this is what the SBC officially believes. And of course, we would like everyone to abide by this, but this is the official position of the SBC. This is the explanation given by USA Today. The SBC's vote on the IVF resolution at the denomination's annual meeting next week. They say next week, it's happening right now in many ways aligns with many Southern Baptist values. But it would also represent an affirmation of an idea championed by a select few thought leaders. The SBC Resolutions Committee recommended the measure for approval after receiving a draft submitted by Al Moller, president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary and Southern Seminary Ethics Professor Andrew Walker. We had Andrew Walker on a couple of weeks ago. We've had Dr.

Starting point is 00:21:39 Mueller on as well. The proposed resolution for the 2004 SBC annual meeting calls in Southern Baptist to advocate for the government to restrain actions inconsistent with the dignity and value of every human being, which necessarily includes frozen embryonic human beings. This would mean, for example, that the SBC would absolutely oppose the legislation that is being put forward by Katie Britt of Alabama and Ted Cruz of Texas that's trying to secure the quote unquote right of IVF. You can go back and listen to that episode. if you are interested in hearing what that legislation is and of course why I think we should oppose it. And Dr. Mueller has spoken about IVF and what the Christian position should be on IVF for a really long time,

Starting point is 00:22:27 even when it's been really unpopular among evangelicals to do so. He wrote a few weeks ago an article in World Magazine called In Defense of Frozen Children. And he said this. The blunt and unavoidable question is this. do pro-lifers really believe that unborn children are children? If not, we have been lying. If we really do believe this, how do we reckon with millions of frozen children locked in an indefinite freeze and destined for destruction due to IVF procedures? Many evangelical Christians do not want some issues to be addressed. We understand the desire

Starting point is 00:23:03 for a baby and honor it, but IVF technology requires the moral alienation of goods that God intended to come together. A man plus a woman plus marriage is the right context for children to emerge with no moral complications. Any alienation from that context brings at the very least moral risk. He goes on to explain exactly what those risks are. We've talked about them many times on this podcast. And, you know, I understand that it might seem to some of you, like we talk about IVF too, too much. Why do we bring this up so much? I don't bring it up randomly. We're not talking about it just because I feel like it. If you haven't noticed, IVF and surrogacy have been in the news more than they ever have.

Starting point is 00:23:47 We have more celebrities, more influential people coming out and glorifying these reproductive practices. And because I think so many Christians, including myself a few years ago, are so behind on this issue that is a matter of life and death for the most vulnerable, we need to talk about it a lot. it's not my desire. I don't really like desire to talk about it. It's not the funnest thing to talk about. And there are plenty of times when it's in the news or a lot of you are sitting me a video about something to do with surrogacy or IVF that I don't talk about it because I'm like, we already talked about it this week or we talked about it last week. And of course,

Starting point is 00:24:26 I don't want to exhaust you with the same thing over and over again. But for anyone who might have a complaint. And a complaint is different than feedback, by the way. I invite feedback. But I don't like, I don't like whininess. And so if you are concerned about something or how we're talking about something or how much we're talking about something, you of course can let me know, but also understand that there's probably a good reason for it. There aren't that many people on the right who talk about this. There aren't that many evangelical Christians who talk about this. There are a few of us, and I think it's really important for us to navigate this. So we will be talking, by the way, with a doctor who used to be an IVF doctor and she's going to take us through the entire scientific

Starting point is 00:25:11 and medical process. What actually happens? All of the unknowns that the public doesn't really get about IVF and then why she ended up going into natural fertility medicine that has helped so many women get pregnant in a much more ethical way. We're going to be doing that soon just from a different perspective. But just FYI, that's why we have talked about this as often as we have. And that's why this is going on at the SBC right now. And so we're not alone in thinking, wow, this is a lot more of a prominent issue than it has been in the past. Yeah, it's being voted on by the largest denomination in the country because this is something that is being debated more than ever. So I say great for Al-Muller, great for Andrew Walker. This is something.

Starting point is 00:26:01 that the SBC does need to come together on. And so these are the issues to watch. These are the things that you can be looking out for. It might not have any direct effect on your church or on your life, but it does tell us where Christianity and where evangelicalism is and is going in the United States. And because evangelicalism, Protestantism in general, but especially evangelicalism has such a huge impact on

Starting point is 00:26:31 culture and politics and social issues. It's really important to pay attention to the SBC, whether you're associated with it or not. All right, more that's happening in the Christian world. And that is the goings on at Crew, formerly Campus Crusade for Christ. We discussed this originally on episode 960. Actually, that might have not been originally, but that was was the last time we talked about what's going on at crew. We have talked about, for example, Rosaria Butterfield's comments at a Liberty University convocation when she called out crew for compromising on the issue of LGBTQ and using quote unquote pronoun politeness. She called out people like Preston Sprinkle, who she saw as really wavering on this and being unbiblical

Starting point is 00:27:40 on the LGBTQ issue. He also has issued public statements, by the way, defending himself against those accusations. And you can read both sides of that, if you would like. That's all out there. And we might have even talked about his response to that on this show. If you go back and listen to those episodes. But we also discussed some curriculum that had been leaked by crew

Starting point is 00:28:05 that seemed to contradict what the Bible says about human sexuality and the Christian obligation to speak true. For example, that curriculum, which really wasn't supposed to publicly circulate, but it did, said that it is an okay position to use someone's preferred pronouns, if a man says that he wants to go by she, if you are doing so for the purpose of evangelism. They presented that as an option. They did not say that that's their position that we should be using those preferred pronouns, but that is an option.

Starting point is 00:28:49 That could be a respectful option to try to win someone to Christ. And they also have emphasized the perspective or given light to the perspective in this LGBTQ curriculum. that homosexual behavior may be disordered and sinful, but homosexual attraction is not necessarily sin. Of course, I believe that both of those perspectives are wrong, that we are not going to win someone to Christ by lying to them, by deceiving them and affirming a deception about who they are and what their body is.

Starting point is 00:29:32 I'm not saying that you have to go out of your way to offend them, but there's a way to lovingly and kindly and gently tell the truth about who someone is. And I always think of Laura Perry Smalt, who shared her testimony on this couch and she transitioned, so-called, into a man named Jake. And her parents and her parents' friends at their Christian conservative church just never gave into it. even when she looked like a man, never called her Jake, never called her he, him. Who were the people that she ran to after she came to Christ and realized that she was lying to herself and had destroyed her body in some ways? She ran to her parents who always affirmed the truth about who she was and how God created her to be.

Starting point is 00:30:23 She found refuge and acceptance after her repentance. after her repentance and reawakening in that church that had always affirmed who she was as a woman as Laura. And so I think that we are much more powerful when we don't waver, when we don't affirm the thing that is killing someone. So I don't think that that is a neutral possibility or option that should be presented by an evangelism organization to the people. within the organization. It's just not. It's not a biblical option. And then you also have this idea that homosexual desire is neutral. And it's also not neutral because we read in Romans 1 that the desire, the homosexual attraction is disordered. Now that doesn't mean that someone who is attracted to the same sex is irredeemable. Not at all. That's not. That's not. That's not.

Starting point is 00:31:27 not the biblical position, but it is also wrong to say that our attractions are neutral, that there's no such thing as an ordered attraction or an ordered desire or disordered one. According to Romans 1, our attractions can be actually unnatural and disordered. And so that's where I disagreed. That's where a lot of Christians disagreed with Cruz's curriculum. And some of the employees at Crew also took issue with this curriculum, including a couple named Uriah and Marissa Mundell. They live and work in Austin.

Starting point is 00:32:01 They voiced their concerns several months ago over Cruz's mandatory gender and sexuality curriculum for staff. And they spoke to a World Magazine reporter in a story that was published on February 22nd. And then two weeks later, the organization terminated their employment saying that we know that Cruz's position on biblical sexuality is an area of deep concern for you. It is important that you realize you can hold your views and continue to serve with crew as long as they don't conflict with our statement of faith or our missionary vows.

Starting point is 00:32:42 The organization's first two missionary vows include affirming Jesus Christ is my Savior and Lord, and the Bible is the inspired and inerrant Word of God, and I willingly submit to the authority of God's word. but the vow that they were told that they broke was the sixth missionary vow of crew, which says, I pledge to work for the peace and the unity of crew. So they went with the Martin Luther approach, which is peace, if possible, truth at all costs. And so they were abiding by the first two missionary vows, but they said, I guess, if I have to sacrifice unity, which I'm sure was not their desire in order to stand.

Starting point is 00:33:24 for what God's word says is true, then I guess I'm going to have to break that vow. And I'm not saying what they actually said, but judging by their actions that seem to be their thinking. Last year after completing the ministry's new mandatory sexuality training, the Mundell's said they raised their concerns with their supervisors, the HR department, other crew leaders, including the director of theological development Keith Johnson. Each time, they said their concerns were dismissed. The Mondell's question, whether it is scriptural for crew to allow staff to adopt LGBT identity labels, including identifying as quote unquote gay Christian, that is language that Preston Sprinkle, who helped develop this curriculum uses often or using a person's preferred pronouns

Starting point is 00:34:11 and to refer to same-sex attraction as a disordering of sexual desire, not sin. So let me clarify that. So they do describe same-sex attraction as a disordering of sexual desire. So it did sound like earlier I was saying that they didn't say that. But what they won't go so far as to say is that it is actually a sin. And so they've narrowed kind of the definition of sin there. And that is what the Mundell's had an issue with, again, going back to how Romans one describes what those unnatural desires are. which is also sin.

Starting point is 00:34:56 Now we have some updates on Cruz LGBT training, and not only their LGBT training that they are showing their staff, but also training that includes social and racial justice themes. So this is, according to enemies within the church, I wasn't really familiar with this outlet before. They say that this is actually a film that encourages the church to cleanse itself from contamination imposed by cultural Marxism, and a heretical teaching known as the social justice gospel.

Starting point is 00:35:27 And so this is an entity that looked into Cruz's curriculum and highlighted a lot of the problematic aspects of it. So as a refresher in 2021, crew started developing its new sexuality training called Compassionate and Faithful to help equip staff to navigate challenges around the LGBTQ issues. Crew insists that it wants to meet those challenges while remaining faithful to the Bible. But of course, as I've already explained,

Starting point is 00:35:56 there are people who are concerned that they're not actually trying to remain faithful to the Bible. And they have kind of taken on this side B Christianity. Maybe you've heard of this side B, side A, there's side X, there's side Y. And Preston's Sprinkle, and it seems like the curriculum that we see in crew is side B, Christianity. So let me explain that. This is according to got questions.com. And so I think that it's a pretty good and accurate summary of what it is.

Starting point is 00:36:27 So side be believers hold that homosexual orientation is not a sin, but acting on those inclinations is takes the position that sexual relationships between people of the same sex are morally wrong, but romantic relationships are different. So celibate same sex partners are not necessarily wrong. Queer individuals can maintain their sexual identity and even celebrated while remaining celibate. Proponents of this few say that homosexuality is no different than any other sin. Also, every human on earth is sexual attractions that fall outside of God's design. So side be Christians encourage all believers either to marry a member of the opposite sex or if

Starting point is 00:37:00 they are same-sex tract to live celibately and get involved in an understanding church community. Then you've got side A. I know it seems like I'm going out of order here, but side A, Christians believe that God intentionally created queer people with same-sex attractions. Therefore, and I can't even call this Christianity, but therefore same-sex relationships are blessed by God's side A is commonly called the affirming view. And I don't think I have to explain the rest of that. You understand. So that's completely disregarding what the word of God actually says about the definition of marriage,

Starting point is 00:37:32 what it says about sexual and morality and sin. And then you've got side X. You've got side X. Christians believe the homosexual attraction itself is a sin. Those with same-sex inclinations must repent for heterosexuality is God's purpose for all. People. So that's what side X believes. God can and does change simple attractions and homosexuals can be cured. Side X uses terms such as ex-gay, former LGBTQ. According to side X teachers, the phrasing in Leviticus 1822 and 2013, specifically the words test will categorizes homosexuality as a terrible offense. Side Xers assert that homosexuality was the primary reasons out of Ingamara were destroyed. Christians must leave behind all same-sex attractions to truly follow. honor God. Side Y basically falls in between side B and side X, agreeing with both sides that same sex sexual relationships are wrong. Side Y stance is that we find our identity in Christ and therefore

Starting point is 00:38:30 we shouldn't identify ourselves by our sexual orientation at all. We have all been called to holiness. Side Y focuses on identity as a Christian rather than sexual identity, much like Paul removes identification labels in Galatians 328 because you are all one in Christ Jesus. So unlike side B. Side Y does not seem maintaining a queer identity as God honoring. And unlike side X, side Y does not strive to make all Christians heterosexual. The ultimate goal according to side Y is becoming more Christlike in the individual way God has for each person. I would say that that is where I fall. That's not to say that I don't think that God can change someone's desires to be attracted to the opposite sex and then get married. Of course, I believe that God,

Starting point is 00:39:17 can absolutely do that. But all Christians are called to holiness. We're all called to identity in Christ. We're all called to self-control. And Christians do struggle with a number of sins, resisting temptation of a number of lust. And I do believe that someone can absolutely be a Christian and truly genuinely struggle against with the power of the Holy Spirit, disordered and sinful attractions to the same sex. And so I would put myself in that category of side Y. And you can let me know what

Starting point is 00:39:57 you think about that. Honestly, I don't think I've ever put myself in any category. And I haven't even known all of the ends and outs of all these categories. But you can let me know in the comments what you think about that. So, crew is seemingly side B. They're not side A completely affirming, but they tend to fall in this side B kind of pressed in Sprin sprinkle category. So we've already kind of gone over the problems that people had with their LGBTQ curriculum with the pronouns and the identity. But what's new in the curriculum that people are sounding the alarms about now is, for example, their addition of Justin Gibney.

Starting point is 00:40:39 He has been added to the curriculum later. He was not a part of the original curriculum. but he has been brought in to talk about the issue of so-called social racial justice. We've had Justin Gibney on this podcast before. It was a disagreement. We have disagreed several times since on social media. He is a part of the Anne campaign. And he is, according to him, a lifelong Democrat from my perspective, he and all of the

Starting point is 00:41:07 leadership at Anne campaign still lean that direction, still believe that faithful Christians can vote Democrat. He might even say should vote Democrat because he really sees both sides as equally problematic. And I don't know if he would say they also have an equal number of good things about them. I'm not sure that he would go so far as to say that. But he does believe like Christians don't really fall into either category. But he certainly seems to give a lot of justifications for why a faithful Christian would vote Democrat. And of course, I completely, completely disagree with that. Not that Republicans are perfect, but I do not think a faithful Christian should ever, ever be voting for the pro-abortion pro-LGB party. Of course.

Starting point is 00:41:58 Pro-crime also. So many things. But he was brought in by crew to discuss this, politics, how we treat the LGBTQ community, how we treat minorities. And he says this in the curriculum. If majority culture Christians especially are not willing to reckon with the history of the church's failure to treat minorities in the LGBTQ community with dignity and compassion, then they are not prepared to be constructive actors within this conversation. He does clearly state that biblical definition of marriage is between one man and one woman. So he and I totally agree on that. But he does make the comparison of black people to LGBT. people. And actually Vody Bakum just wrote a book on this called It's Not Like Being Black,

Starting point is 00:42:48 how LGBTQ activists have basically hijacked black civil rights in order to try to advance their cause. So I actually think it's a very dangerous comparison and not similar at all. But he says they both endured hatred and both deserve social justice. Social justice is about making sure all categories of people are treated fairly, not validating their opinions and ethics. Of course, that's not what social justice is in practice. Social justice is ensuring that all outcomes are the same. It views disparities as evidence of discrimination. And so anyone who believes that should be reading them a lot of Thomas Sol who completely debunks that with facts and history. He says some Christians are simply unwilling to critique or challenge conservatism or liberal progressivism, but that's

Starting point is 00:43:35 indoctrination. Well, everyone has been indoctrinated. Everyone has doctrines in them. It's just a matter of who taught us those doctrines and where they come from. He says Christians must live in the tension between love and truth. I don't necessarily disagree with that, but I think the Bible is much, much, much clear on these issues than a lot of people in this camp give it credit for. Their curriculum goes on to highlight the plight of LGBT people, how we need to understand why they have been victimized over the years

Starting point is 00:44:10 in order to truly love them and see them for who they are. So this curriculum says that if we are going to be wise missionaries, we need to understand the history, the culture, and the language of the people group we're trying to reach. And so they're not just saying this about the Incas or people in the Pacific Islands or in Africa. they're talking about LGBTQ people, as if this is a certain nationality, a monolithic kind of people. And they say that they have been met with systemic victimization over the years.

Starting point is 00:45:05 And they go all the way back to Nazi Germany. When they say gay men were subjected to higher rates of mistreatment, being tracked by the Nazi government, arrested being placed in concentration camps, where they experienced incredibly high, death rates because of low rations and worse work assignments. I wonder like where are we getting that information that like what the Jews were treated better than gay men at Auschwitz? I'm not sure that I've ever heard that. I'm just not sure if that's true. And it just seems a little odd to me to make whatever point that they're trying to make to use that example. During the AIDS crisis, thousands of young gay men, the curriculum says, died alone in hospice care.

Starting point is 00:45:50 They died alone. Some of them becoming like little boys crying out for mom and dad, but their parents refused to come, even when they pleaded. Why? Because their parents disown them years ago. Okay, obviously, that's awful and that's really sad. But there's a lot to be sad about the entire AIDS crisis. in addition to this. And I'm not sure if this fact alone is what should be included in this curriculum. They say today they're the crisis of trans people being assaulted and murdered. That's factually not true. That's literally not true. The trans people that are being murdered are very often being murdered because they live risky lives of prostitution and destitution.

Starting point is 00:46:40 and unfortunately any kind of person that leads that kind of life is going to be at greater risk. And it's just not true that trans people are being targeted because of their stated identity and being assaulted and killed. There are no stats to back that up. And actually what we've seen over the past several months is that there is a very disturbing pattern of men and women who identify as transgender being the perpetrators. of violence. Like if we want to talk about that, that's a much bigger issue that I would like crew to raise awareness about that, wow, this is how important it is for us to speak truth and speak life because we have young women going on testosterone who are clearly unstable

Starting point is 00:47:27 and have anti-Christian views walking in to a Christian school in Nashville, Tennessee, shooting it up, killing nine people, including preschool children. We had someone who identifies as transgender walk into Lakewood Church and start shooting several months ago. Five-year-old child, I think a five-year-old child that was with her was injured because of that. And so that is actually the greater victimization that's going on here. But they're buying into the left-wing narrative that everyone who is not white, that's not

Starting point is 00:48:05 straight that's not so-called cisgendered that they are all oppressed. And Christians have to buy into this oppression narrative. We have to affirm this oppression narrative in order to be good Christians. This is a prime example of toxic empathy. They say that in reaching LGBT people, we have to die to our own discomforts. And we have to use language that would be comfortable for them. And gosh, I heard this so much in 2020 when it came to social and racial justice that you have to be willing to pay for the sins of slave owners, for example, because that's what self-denial and self-sacrifice is about. It's such a perversion of the gospel. It's all liberation theology that is being promoted here. And liberation theology is not Christianity. Liberation theology is not

Starting point is 00:48:54 Christianity. And actually, Crewe is also teaching a class. It is another required separate class for staff. It's not a part of the sexuality curriculum where they are promoting books like Bonhofer's Black Jesus, Harlem Renaissance theology, and an ethic of resistance. Next to the book in the syllabus, this class that's required for the staff is 25%,

Starting point is 00:49:19 which means that 25% of the student's grade will be based on writing a paper to summarize the book. It's presented as material that helps students achieve learning, achieve the learning outcomes of the class. The book promotes black liberation theology, a Marxist ideology that usurps biblical language to promote oppressed blacks rising against their oppressors. This is according to Baptist news, Reggie Williams argues in the book that Dietrich Bonhoeffer understood the Nazi soul because a viewed of German reality through the lens of American black theology is mediated through the preaching of Adam Clayton Powell, Sr.

Starting point is 00:49:54 pastor of Harlem's abyssinian Baptist Church, which happens to be the same Baptist Church that just hosted what's his name, Alvin Bragg and said that he was a humble great brother that needed to be applauded, just further into the abyss. An excerpt from the book, The Volkish devotion to pure German blood with its ethnic, nationalistic, imperialist longings was the German equivalent of normalized humanity from the American version of white supremacy. Seen society from the hidden perspective of Harlem helped Bonhofer to recognize white supremacy in Germany and to see it as a Christian problem that might demand Christian political action because he was exposed to American racism from the perspective of Christians who were subjected to it. Bonhofer was equipped with prophetic insight that his white German colleagues in the church and the academy did not have. And so, of course, that is his attempt to say that you, white Christian here, must see things.

Starting point is 00:50:53 things through the lens of a black person in order to really understand oppression and evangelism. Bree said that she took this class while working for crew and it was taught by conservative Christian so either he ignored this part of the curriculum or this had not yet been added. And yet this is a part of it now. I think that this is all really troubling. This is what I call the mushy middle. This is inching its way towards liberalism. I promise you, this is inching its way towards crew just.

Starting point is 00:51:23 being completely obsolete. It's inching its way towards the belief that mission work and sharing the gospel in other countries is actually a harmful form of colonialism and imperialism that we should avoid, that Christianity is really more just about kind of being nice to people. I know. There's someone out there who's going to think, oh, I'm taking it too far. That's just a slippery slope argument. I hope, I hope that I'm wrong, but that's where this always goes. because you are subtly undermining the sufficiency of the gospel and the inerrancy of the Word of God, the reality of sin, the need of the gospel, subtly undermining what God's definition of justice is, what it actually looks to love someone in truth. And again, I hope that I'm wrong on this because I want an organization like crew to have the widest possible influence,

Starting point is 00:52:16 to send out effective gospel messengers that love people. well and that God uses to turn people to Christ. I want success for this organization, but I have never seen any Christian organization succeed for a long period of time that is not rooted in the authority of the scriptures. And I just see liberal ideologies being adopted, and I promise you it will lead to chaos and destruction eventually. But I hope that they turn around and that there are people who are willing to speak up and make a difference. unfortunately it looks like those people are being fired by crew so this is another one to watch a very influential organization that a lot of you have been a part of over the years and we are

Starting point is 00:53:00 right to feel troubled about that all right guys so we've got time for today we've got awesome interviews coming up for the rest of the week that i'm super pumped about let's see any announcements just the basic announcements that i've been telling you if you have not signed up for Share the Arrows. Go to Share thearrows.com. It is time. You will not regret it. It's going to be an awesome, awesome time. Go to ShareThearrows.com. You'll find all the information about that. If you guys, if you have any subjects that you guys want me to cover that we have not covered yet, you guys told me that you want me to talk about weed and the dangers of weed and why weed is trash. And so we are going to talk about that. We actually compiled all this research for it already. We just didn't have time for

Starting point is 00:53:57 today. And so that's going to be next week. We will talk about Marijuana and we will talk about the dangers of it and how disgusting it is and really how it is not this harmless substance that needs to pervade our society. It is actually just a signal of the destruction of our society, making otherwise smart and accomplished people lazy and stupid. So we'll get into that. If there's anything else that that you guys want to make sure that we cover next week, send me a message. Let me know. leave a five-star review on Apple Podcasts or on Spotify. That means a lot to us. Subscribe on YouTube and click the little bell below this.

Starting point is 00:54:38 So you get a notification every time we upload a video. All right. So thankful for y'all. Thank you for allowing us to give you this podcast four days a week. I'm just so thankful and excited about what I do. And we've got a lot coming up this year that we will need to link arms on and discuss and keep ourselves saying about. All right.

Starting point is 00:55:01 We'll be back here tomorrow with more.

Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 1017 | Dr. Tony Evans Steps Down Over Secret Sin

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