Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 1019 | The Christian ‘Ashley Madison’ Couple Speaks Out | Guests: Sam & Nia Rader

Episode Date: June 13, 2024

Today, we sit down with family vloggers Sam and Nia Rader. Back in 2015, this Christian couple's world was turned upside down during a data breach of the infidelity website "Ashley Madison." Because of this breach, names of people who had signed up for the site, seeking to have an affair, became public. Sam's name was included in the leak. The couple then faced an uphill battle as they struggled to heal their marriage, sought true repentance, and dealt with the publicity of their marital struggles. They recently told their story again to Netflix in the streaming company's documentary on the data leak. We ask them to delve into their story and share what they believe Netflix got wrong. Get Sam and Nia's book here: https://www.amazon.com/Sam-Nia-Live-Truth-Restored/dp/B0D4657827 Get your tickets for Share the Arrows: https://www.sharethearrows.com/ --- Timecodes: (01:08) Sam & Nia introduction (03:00) How Sam & Nia went viral (09:35) Signing up for ‘Ashley Madison’ (20:20) Getting convicted (26:10) Finding out about the leak (37:28) What happened after the leak (48:00) Nia's feelings & Sam's repentance (52:07) The Bible & divorce (56:05) Netflix's portrayal (01:00:51) Backlash & healing from infidelity (01:07:29) Where to find their book --- Today's Sponsors: My Patriot Supply — prepare yourself for anything with long-term emergency food storage. Get your new, lower-price three month Emergency Food Kit at PrepareWithAllie.com. EveryLife — the only premium baby brand that is unapologetically pro-life. EveryLife offers high-performing, supremely soft diapers and wipes that protect and celebrate every precious life. Head to EveryLife.com and use promo code ALLIE10 to get 10% of your first order today! America’s Christian Credit Union – nationwide personal and business banking for people who still love God and country. ACCU is federally insured by the National Credit Union Administration. Learn more and get started at AmericasChristianCU.com/SWITCH Freedom Project Academy — Take back your child’s education at Freedom Project Academy. Right now, save 10% on tuition when you enroll at Freedom For School dot com, that’s Freedom F-O-R School dot com. --- Relevant Episodes: Ep 957 | How the Gospel Heals Anger, Addiction & Adultery | Guest: Jeff Allen https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/ep-957-how-the-gospel-heals-anger-addiction-adultery/id1359249098?i=1000647135892 Ep 989 | Nickelodeon Has a Predator Problem https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/ep-989-nickelodeon-has-a-predator-problem/id1359249098?i=1000653246789 --- Buy Allie's book, You're Not Enough (& That's Okay): Escaping the Toxic Culture of Self-Love: https://alliebethstuckey.com/book Relatable merchandise – use promo code 'ALLIE10' for a discount: https://shop.blazemedia.com/collections/allie-stuckey

Sam and Nia Rader are popular YouTubers and they were just featured on a Netflix documentary about Ashley Madison. That is that a website that allows married people to pursue affairs. They are here to share their story today. And here's a little preview of that documentary, Sot 1. I love being a dad. I loved my wife. It was a beautiful marriage, but it was also just like monotonous. I remember seeing an advertisement. Life is short having an affair.

I was like, that's something intriguing. Sam and Nia are here today to share everything they didn't get to say in this documentary. Tell us the ways that they feel like Netflix did not portray them accurately. And also to share their redemption that they see God working in and through their lives. Without further ado, here they are. Sam Ania, thanks so much for teaching. Taking the time to join me, can y'all tell us who you are and what you do? You can go ahead. Yeah, I'm Nia. I'm Sam. We're Sam and Ian.

Yeah. And we are parents to four little kiddos. We do YouTube and blog our life and share what it looks like to live for the Lord. It's raising small children. And have been for 10 years. Yeah. For a little while. Okay, so I was watching this Ashley Madison documentary on Netflix. And so many people have had told me, yeah, it's really interesting because a Christian couple is in it. And that alone just kind of caught my attention. I was like, okay, this is not typically something that I would watch, like a documentary about affairs. It just seemed sketchy and scandalous.

But people are saying, you got to watch it. It's really interesting. I'm interested to see your commentary on it. And I was watching it. And then when you came on screen, I was like, why? And my husband said the same thing. We were like, why do we recognize his face? And then you came on screen.

And I was like, I definitely recognized them. There's some kind of like Christian couple that I've seen online. And I could not pin it. I could not figure it out until Frozen started playing. And then I saw y'all in the car and the lip syncing video. I was like, that is where I know them. And I think I had seen y'all's Instagram before. And then when I went to your Instagram and I was looking to see like if we have mutuals,

I saw that you had messaged me before. I was like, oh my gosh. Okay, so we know who the other one is. Maybe I can get them on the show to not just talk about that, but to talk about your story. And so that's why you're here. I do want to talk about that documentary, everything that led up to that. But first, I just kind of want to back up. And for everyone who didn't watch the documentary, they have no idea.

How did you all start doing what you do? How did you first go viral and all that? Yeah, well, when the movie Disney Frozen came out. A lot of people got their start on YouTube and we were one of them. Anything anybody was posting related to Frozen was basically doing well. And me and I found ourselves in our car singing along to all the words with our daughter, who was three at the time. And we're like, hey, we're good at this.

Let's film it. I was a wedding photographer at a really nice camera set up. And I threw my SLR on the dashboard and started filming us. Lipsinging to the song. And then it got how many views? What's it out like Dang it I don't know

It got millions Tens of millions And a lot of views It's y'all lip syncing It's super cute And then y'all didn't do it Full Time though right away Like you were still working full time

And then you had another video though That went viral When you told her that she was pregnant Right And that's kind of what launched The actual career Of logging right Okay well tell us a little bit about that

Because not everyone else You want to tell him, babe? I mean, sure. We had been trying to get pregnant for a while over a year. And he was working nights, and I had text him at night saying, I'm a couple weeks late on my period, but, you know, I don't think anything, but just letting you know. And he, working as an ER nurse had been kind of privy to telling women in the ER

that they were pregnant before they knew. And so he, I guess, had just had this genius idea to test my pee. And it all worked out. He came home. I had not flushed the toilet overnight. He got a specimen, did the little dropper, and just totally shocked me with it. Oh, my goodness. And that went super viral.

And you all had like news stations, media outlets trying to interview you. And that's when you decided, okay, you can quit your job and do this full time, right? Yes. Yeah. And so that was what year? 2015. That was 2015. So tell us a little bit about what it looked like from there.

How did y'all approach this whole family vlogging thing? It was newer then. Well, we had already been blogging for a year since that point. But yeah, we started doing it full time after that, like you said. It was just filming our daily live, just like doing home videos and inviting people into our home, showing them, hey, this is what we look like raising kids. Yeah. You know, this is what our relationships look like. And we also took them along to church with us.

They meet the people in our community and the people who watched us in New York Christian community. Yeah, I mean, everything, laundry, the grocery store, church, you know, all the little ends and outs of raising a family were just out there for people to come along with us. Did you ever feel, I've always wondered this about family vloggers or just like now it's more family influencers. they're just kind of posting on Instagram. Do you ever feel like you, when you're just doing mundane things or you're having normal everyday interactions with your children, like you find yourself thinking about how to turn it into content? Was that like ever a struggle that you couldn't just like enjoy being in the moment because

everything turns into like a YouTube video? It took a long time before I felt that way. I didn't feel that way for a while. I was just having so much fun. Yeah. We kind of grew up. I feel like our moms had like the big camcorders. Those were popular when we were little.

So we were like, I don't know, kind of used to, this is what you do with your family. You film it. We just happen to be posting it for people to see. Did you feel that way? Yeah, for sure. I mean, I still feel that pressure, of course. Yeah. But the moment I like let that pressure go is like when we actually start posting good

vlogs, though. It was like people really just want to see the day-to-day stuff. The people who don't have families, just having kids running around the house is really interesting and unique to them and I'm familiar. Yeah. But yeah, there's definitely a lot of pressure just to make the mundane things interesting. Yeah. And how do you combat that? Because I think that would be a little bit of a hard struggle. I think I would feel a little guilty about that, not wanting to turn everything into like an opportunity for content, but also that's y'all's job. And so how do you figure that out? Well, we stop posting less.

Stop posting as much. Yeah, we do post less. I think we balance each other out. Yeah, I think we balance each other out too. Like, he is the creative eye and he can see like people will want to see this. This is drama. This is funny. This is that.

And there's times where I'm like, well, this could be private. Let's just, you know, and sometimes we'll film something and it never sees the light of day. And sometimes we just decide like this is not something the kids will want to look back on. You know, we just kind of talk and feel it out and see what feels natural in the moment. Yeah. We were also, I don't know, I'd say somewhat immature and childish when we first got started. So it wasn't like we solved, oh, this is going to be unhealthy for our family. Yeah, it took a lot.

It was more like, hey, this is going to be fun. But anyway, yeah. And the Internet's changed. I think that a lot of people 10 years ago just didn't think about the potential harms of like who's online, the crazy people, the weirdos and all of that. And I think people have gotten a lot more protective, rightfully so, of their kids, their experiences, their interactions, their images. Because unfortunately, like, people are just crazy out there. And y'all probably know that better than anyone at this point after the documentary. And so how do you decide, okay, what am I going to show of my kids? Because for me as a mom, that scares me, you know? Yeah.

I think a lot of that fear is unfounded, to be honest. You do. Yeah. Like I've never felt like I've had anything to hide besides what we'll talk about soon. But I just feel like we're all living the same experience. We all, our kids all love to do the same things. They're all doing the same things. I don't know.

I get that some people have those kind of fears, but I've seen my mom have similar fears. and I've never seen any of your fears actually come to fruition. So it was just like, I don't know how founded these fears are. Okay, so you got approached by Netflix at some point, I'm guessing, in the past couple years, approached you about a documentary about Ashley Madison. Some people have no idea. Ashley Madison is a website for people, for married people, who wanted to have, affairs. So tell us first how you got approached by Netflix and then we'll kind of

back up from there and talk about why they even approached you and why y'all were involved in the documentary. Did you get a phone call and email? What was it? We got an email. We actually got an email from a different production company before that and thankfully we you know just I don't know just through prayer and discussions we said no to that and then and then the production company for the the Netflix documentary came along. And so it was weird because the first one was like, whoa, what is this? You know, we were so shocked and kind of excited and leery.

But then a second one quickly came along. So we were like, okay, well, we've already kind of processed through like how big this could be. And just, you know, lots of prayer and conversations with our friends, family community. And they just asked us if we would be willing to share our story. They did not tell us up front what the streaming service was, just that it was a well-known streaming service and kind of kept some of that quiet. But we had a lot of preliminary discussions with them. We shared our whole entire story.

I think it took two hours to lay it all out there and just, I don't know, get comfortable, see if it was even a right fit. And from there, we just felt like the Lord was giving us like this call to share, share what he had done in our life, no matter how it might end up. We didn't mind sharing our story. Our biggest concern was will Netflix actually tell our story? will redemption come across and at the end will the true story come through yeah do you feel like it did for the most part there were some things that were twisted that still bother me today and in fact that

actually just yesterday saw another comment related to and it's just like oh my gosh yeah for the most part yes though i mean overall there's a few things but we'll get into that because i am interested to hear what you guys think could have been conveyed better more accurately but a lot of people haven't seen the documentary. They don't have Netflix. They have no idea what we're talking about. And so I would love for you all to share your story here. If we could go back to how this all started, how did you get introduced to Ashley Madison? Just sitting at work one night. I was an ER nurse working the night shift, saw an ad on Yahoo News. The slogan is life is short, having an affair. look interesting, intriguing, as I put it, in the documentary.

But I clicked it and signed up. And how long did you all been married at that point? Two years. Three years? Yeah, three years. You've been married three years. And so you all are still kind of newlywads at this point. But you already felt like in the documentary or at least in the trailer for the documentary,

you said that you felt like life was mundane. So do you feel like you were looking for, I don't know change to mix things up to make things exciting yeah I was working as a nurse and I had chosen the wrong path for me for sure it was definitely a ill-seeded job for me profession I spent six years trying to become a nurse and I was working in the ER just showing up night after night just depressed and telling myself turn this car around don't go back in another time don't do it Just because it wasn't what you felt called to do or what you were equipped to do. I'm a creative and like there's no room for creativity in the hospital.

Not even the ER. It's just strictly protocol and cover your butt. Make sure you don't get a lawsuit. It's like that's what they tell you before you go on your shift. Right. Protect yourself. Yeah. Yeah.

But anyway, that's just part of the story. You know, we got married. The novelty wore off. We had a child. She was pregnant again. Um, no excuse. I mean, there's just a lot of things. Of course, I have some of my own personal issues. Mm-hmm. Just a lot of things led me to wanting other women's attention.

And you talk about in the documentary, Nia, how you were trying so hard to just, like, be the perfect wife. So in your mind at this time, three years into marriage, did you feel like things were monotonous? Or did things still feel kind of like fun and new to you? No, I think there was some monotony, but I'm, I kind of thrive on that. I like routine. I like schedules. And so I didn't think anything, it was like the dream for me. Yeah.

To wake up and take care of a family every day. And so, no, I didn't, I mean, yes, I saw it. It was there, but it wasn't like a negative thing for me. And I did not put two and two together that it was negative for him until after the fact. Yeah. I thought things were good. We had a great relationship. You know, we still got along.

We flirted. We were intimate. We hadn't like, I guess, regular issues. It's not like we didn't have any issues or swept everything under the rug. We just, you know, we still had a good relationship despite what he was doing behind my back. Yeah. And you guys were Christians, right, at the beginning of your marriage. And so you knew when you were looking at Ashley Madison, you felt like this was sin.

And you felt like, oh, I know I shouldn't do this. Is that, was that your kind of thinking? Oh, yeah. I mean, I had done multiple things before this point. So this was kind of a slow fade into outright signing up for a site that says this is for having an affair. And you, so there, the infidelity predated Ashley Madison, correct? Correct. And when did that start within marriage?

It was definitely a slow fade. It's kind of hard to pinpoint. when it started. I used to tell Nia, a little bit of flirting is okay. I think maybe started there in nursing school. It was like, baby, it's just friendly play with the opposite sex. And I would even encourage her what you don't know,

it doesn't hurt. When I don't know, it doesn't hurt. I mean, a little bit's okay. I think it started with stupid thoughts like that. I would call myself a Christian, but definitely a lukewarm question, Christian one step in, one foot and one foot out. Right.

And that's, I mean, that's how sin starts for everyone, that it's just like the innocent stuff first, and then you kind of just start getting callous towards sin in general. So when you made the next step to sign up for Ashley Madison, what did that look like? What did the next step on Ashley Madison look like? Messaging women trying to get their attention.

But it was mostly the attention that she felt like you were after. It was. Because once I actually, I never really, I never got. to I never did meet with any women through Ashra Madison but even when I did meet with other women outside of Ashley Madison once I got their attention and the chase the challenge was over I was met with this new challenge that I was not even really thinking about or considering like now what do I do like this isn't me like the

chase was fun but I don't really care to go much further than this I don't know this is all but just personal stuff it's just a really stupid trying to discover, I guess, who I was and what life was. I was just so confused and all over the place. Not really scripturally grounded at the time. And you had no idea. You didn't have any indication that this was going on. I would say like there were red flags and I had like suspicions.

I would ask him certain things, but I myself, I convinced myself and he convinced me too that all of my suspicions weren't founded. And so I guess, yes, I was shocked, so, so shocked when he eventually, you know, confessed everything to me, but also a little bit of relief because I did have some suspicions. I had a feeling something was off and hidden. Yeah. Y'all talk about in the documentary how things kind of blew up for y'all in, you know, a positive way from y'all's perspective. Like when you started going viral, when you started vlogging and then you started vlogging full time, that's when maybe the excitement of Ashley Madison started to, wear off and you got off the site for a period of time right it's funny saying that because that's

where it was twisted in the documentary yeah I had deleted Ashley Madison four months before YouTube even came along okay and I had not been straying outside my marriage at all far as with the how the public saw me I was holding secrets but I wasn't doing anything behind his back people think they were seeing two sides of me while watching YouTube but it's not the case. Okay. So you stopped all infidelity, including Ashley Madison, before YouTube. And what, what caused that? Like, was there a conviction or why did you decide to stop? Well, Ashley Madison completely failed me. It was just a full disappointment. That was part of it. And it was just... Just because you realized, oh, this attention isn't giving me the lasting satisfaction that I'm looking for?

Yeah. That and women weren't responding. Like the, as many women as were supposedly on there, none of them were giving me attention. So it was just like, okay, I guess whatever, it was disappointing. But anyway, fast forward a month or so, we discovered a church. My mom found a church. And we got plugged into this amazing community. And I'm sitting in church one day with my family and the sermon's just speaking to me. And I'm just like overwhelmed with conviction of all the stuff I've been doing behind

he is back. And the pastor said, if anybody needs a prayer, if you feel like you're in a desert place and you want freedom from that or whatever, that's all in the book, the whole description came on the top of my head. But I said, if you want prayer, go to the back of the church. And at the moment, I finally just surrendered my life to God. And I got up for what, you know, an altar call, which is something I would have never done before. I felt God just completely got me out of my seat. Went past Nia. Just basically a conflict. confessing my weakness and my me surrendering to God for like the first time

in front of her like that. And I go to the back and I'm just in tears and the pastor says an amazing prayer over me. I tell him how much I hate my job. I feel worthless as a father, as a husband, and life is just, I don't like life. I feel useless as a part of God's kingdom. And he says this amazing prayer over me

and I feel like it completely changed my life. I walked out that building for the first time with like hope ahead of me. And then for a couple weeks after that prayer, YouTube came along. And I'm like, whoa, God answered my prayer real fast. Like he gave me this creative outlet. That's what I was asking for. My creativity, I also felt like I wasn't doing anything for His Kingdom.

And I felt like immediately that this was going to be our ministry to talk about God to the world. And that's immediately what I did, even in the description of the frozen lip sync. I immediately put network Jesus followers. I put where we go to church and all this good stuff because I was just so excited to finally be able to be doing something for the Lord. That's what my life turned around. It started to church. Right.

Okay. So you had that conviction and you realized all that stuff that you had been doing and fidelity couldn't do it anymore. Did you feel at that point I'm going to have to tell my life? At that point? Mm-hmm. No. I wasn't going to.

I was at this, yeah. I was keeping all the secrets, you know, to my grave. And it was just like, Neil would never be able to handle this stuff. I'm walking it away, never to revisit again. A guy also came into my life at the time that was paramount that I felt to mention. He just said, hey, man, you can go grab a cup of coffee? And for the first time in my life, a man asked me out for a cup of coffee. And I mean, my dad had done something like this.

And so he sat down and really got to know me beneath the surface. And that was life-changing for me, that another man cared to know who I was. And so he disciples me. It helped me become more like Jesus, helped me be a better dad, better husband. YouTube came along and I decided all these secrets were to go into my grave. I wasn't even going to tell him, my discipleship partner. I told him everything except that. And yeah, then we start vlogging and keeping all these secrets.

And Nash-Madison came along or the breach. And God's like, well, if you're not going to tell anybody, I'm going to tell everybody. He kind of started the process of setting me free. Did you ever before you found out about the breach, were there ever convictions like, oh, I need to say it? No, you can't say it. Oh, I need to say it. No, you can't say it. Or were you just resolute, steadily resolute?

No, I am never, ever telling anyone. The latter. It didn't even feel really like a struggle. It was like, this is between me and God. the only part that felt like a struggle was coming to the Lord and like that coming between my relationship with him like those secrets right I was like man God why can't we get past us together and they be behind us and so there's not like this little thing between you and I but it's always there you know that darkness in me was always there in my relationship with him with

nia as far as I was concerned I thought I was protecting her of that dark son and I didn't want my sins to spill over into her life And to affect her. So I was going to do everything I possibly could to protect her from it. Yeah. Now, obviously, you didn't know what had happened with the infidelity. But did you notice a spiritual change in him after that Sunday? Oh, yeah.

Immediately. And what were your thoughts? As soon as we got in the car, I was just like, oh, I just thought, this is what I've always wanted. This is the Sam I fell in love with. I mean, he was a Christian when I met him. We did Bible study together. We prayed together. I felt like I had gotten like my boyfriend back in a way.

I mean, he was my husband. We had two kids at the time. but I was so excited. I was living for the Lord. I wasn't having the same side journey or whatever that he was doing. And I was just ready to put like all, like, you know, both feet in our whole family and just like dive into church and community and living for the Lord, showing it to the public, all of it. Okay. So you're just seeing this as this is just kind of an almost random, maybe not random, but in earthly speak, like a random problem.

evidential moment of change for him and everything is on a better path. You had no idea what was going on beneath the surface. Yeah, I knew he had some depression like with his job. He didn't like it. I knew how creative he was. I could see that being stifled. So it wasn't too random to me. I thought it was timely as far as the emotional side of it goes or the mental side of it goes. And yeah, I was just excited to move forward. I was so excited. Yeah. And so y'all saw YouTube as an answer to prayer and obviously it provided a way out of your job which as you said was really depressing you and how long into the successful YouTube vlogging did y'all go to this conference in Seattle where you found out about the breach it was about a year and a half okay so not very long at all

and at this point you'll have how many subscribers and followers do you know I really don't remember I made 800,000 600,000 a lot A ton. Yeah. And definitely enough to go, like, speak at this event, right? As featured, yeah. Yeah. And so y'all are in the airport.

And you said, did you find out, was it on Twitter about the Ashley Madison breach? Yes. Okay. And for people who don't know, let me just explain this. There was a data breach for Ashley Madison where the names of the people who had signed up for these accounts, trying to pursue adultery, had been leaked. And when you found out about this, you were like, oh, no, I wonder if my name is going to get out there. And it's interesting because if you hadn't had YouTube, I don't know if it ever would have gone on to Twitter. It might have just been, you know, brushed under the rug.

So tell us about that. Tell us about searching Twitter frantically trying to figure out if your name was a part of the leak. It was maybe a day or two before going to the, airport that day to go to Seattle for a blogger fare and I'm searching Twitter my brother's telling us about the impact team and they gave Ashmanerson 30 days to shut down and all the stuff and he's like well it's time's up they're about to release all the data your brother was saying this my brother yeah and why was he interested in that like why was he that's in the book but he was he was just a news guy he

just updated family it was just random it was random he's it he's definitely the family member that sends the news articles yeah okay so this yeah he's the news guy what year was this 2015 okay i feel like i vaguely remember something else big was going on at the time i think maybe kind of overshadowed some of it i couldn't remember what it was probably the election i was the 2016 election yeah yeah um okay so you got that text and i'm sure like your heart sink yeah well first i thought i had deleted the account hard to and paid. I had remembered that, okay, I think pretty certain I paid extra to have my account hard deleted. And it had been so many years. At 2013, I deleted the account. This was 2015 when the dump came out. I was like, there's no way, like, my data from that long ago would still be in their database. Which we found out in the documentary that even if you paid extra to have all of your data deleted, that they hung on to it. And it was just a scam, which is awful. And I hung on to everybody's data from the beginning of time.

Yes, yeah. So it was definitely a huge shocker. It was just from a very random account. And he was like, hey, am I the first one to scoop that Sam Rader was in the Ashton-Madison Bridge? And I was just, wow. Which means you had used your real first and last name when you signed up for an account. I did.

Yeah. Did you just think that you would never get caught or did it just not really cross your mind? I was living so recklessly. Like, so recklessly. Like that was nothing. People were so surprised by that, but I was very reckless of my life at the time. And I didn't care about a lot of stuff. Obviously, I was risking losing my entire family, my career.

Yeah. Not just on National Madison, but other things. And when you're depressing, like, oh, whatever. Yeah. But, yeah. Okay, so you found that tweet. And then was it at that point that you realized? Okay, I got to tell Nia.

Or were you still hoping, okay, maybe this is not going. to go viral. Maybe more people aren't going to pick it up. Well, I knew right at that point I had to tell Nia. First, I thought my life was completely over, and all I had left on my side was Nia if she would forgive me for this stupid website. And so, we're walking to a Chili's restaurant, and I decide I have to tell Nia before her phone tells her herself. You know, so we sit down and I just tell her about Ashley Madison, and that was it. There was nothing else. I never met with anybody had a few conversations but that was it it was just a curiosity i had it for a couple weeks and

deleted the account just minimized it as much as i possibly could so i could keep nia on my side at that time and i knew the world was about to be against me and what was your reaction when you heard that oh i was so shocked and mad and embarrassed i was just there's a little twinge of relief because like i said i had had some suspicions so i was like okay this is what it was. I wasn't, you know, I wasn't crazy, I guess. And, but overall, I was just, I was just so mad. Not just that he had tried to betray me, but just, I'm thankful that he used his, his information because now it's all out in the light. And if he hadn't, you know, who knows. But I was, I was just so embarrassed that he did that, you know, we have a family.

We had this career. I was so excited. I loved what we were doing. And, like, everything was at risk, not just the family. Really, that wasn't in my mind. I loved him. I knew I would eventually I would forgive him, but just everything else that was that we were working towards and stuff that he would risk it for something so lame and dumb. I'm just so annoyed and mad. And you said that you loved him and knew that you would forgive him. Not everyone would have that feeling. There would be some people who at that moment would say, nope, that's the end of that. Whether he sent messages or whether he actually did something or not, what made you know that, yeah, we're going to get past this at some point? I just, I don't know. Even before,

I knew anything. I just knew that Sam loved me, that we had a good, like a real deep love. It wasn't, there wasn't anything surface level about it. When things were good, it was really, really good. And I mean emotionally, like the connection that we had, I knew deep down he loved the Lord. And at that moment, when it was just Ashley Madison, as angry as I was, and I still was ready to just have his back, be a united front, be a team, and just say like, obviously this is something we're going to have to like discuss and figure out. Like now I know he has curiosities that I was unaware of, I guess. Yeah, I just, I just knew that we would make it through that. Okay, that was while y'all were still at the airport to go to Seattle. Y'all hadn't even gotten

to your destination yet. So the plane ride, I think you said in the documentary, you were mad. You didn't really want to talk about it, but by the time you landed, you had decided, okay, we're going to figure this out. And you kind of felt like, I thought this was interesting and a very insightful part of it when you said that you felt like, wow, I am an awesome life because I am going to forgive him and I'm going to get past this and we're going to just keep doing what we do. Can you talk about that a little bit more? Yeah, I mean, that is how I felt. And I had recently, within the last year or two, read a book, a woman after God's own heart. You might be familiar with it. And I had learned so much about being a godly wife through that book and just the practices that you,

that you practice on a day-to-day basis, you know, forgiving the little things, putting your family first, God, husband, and children. A lot of people have that backwards that it's God, children. Maybe God's not even on their list, but even Christians, I think, have God's children and then husband. And I had just been practicing and really diving into this, even like with my girlfriends and stuff. So I just kind of felt like he describes it as when he met me that it was like game day because he was like a flurter and he was just going to like win me over. And this is how, that's kind of how I look at this is like game day. This is what I've been learning about. How could I, how could I be pouring so much energy and heart into learning something and then just not even practice

it or at least try? And then by the time you got to this conference, I think I remember. you all saying that it felt like people were looking at y'all funny like it's like the news had started to spread at this point right yeah we were sitting in a what do you call it like a class a conference room full of other YouTube creators that we hadn't met in person a couple of them we had but you know people that like we were I was looking forward to networking with getting to know them they're kind of like you know internet friends only at this point and you can just kind to see like people slowly starting to like look our direction. Yeah like people's the phones were starting to blow up. The news was starting to break and you could just kind of tell people were like

it was obvious to me. Yeah. Even if it wasn't we were still. Yeah, maybe we were just so nervous but it felt pretty obvious. Okay. So it became headline news and I think what made it even um, do you see or for a lot of people is that you guys are public Christians. Did you feel like some of these media outlets and I don't know maybe competitors felt like yes we got them see they're just hypocrites they act like they're Christians but behind closed doors they're totally different people like did you feel that from some of the people reporting on the story maybe not in those terms but I like how you put it though but definitely yeah I mean yeah immediately's like oh great here we go I'm falling into the category of what the world will call

hypocritical Christian. That's pretty devastating, especially since I saw this as my ministry to reflect Jesus. Right. Okay, tell me what happened after that because it wasn't just Ashley Madison. So how did things evolve from there? You want to go?

Sure. Okay, so the Ashley Madison thing came out. We made a video, I announced to our audience. You know, basically all the lies I told Nia, I repeated all the same lies to our audience. And that's when the convictions started to really just, like, eat away at me, way on me big time real heavily. And then my brother sends out a tweet after I post the video and says, why are you still lying, bro? Or a text, not a tweet. Oh, a text, yeah.

And why did he say that? I think he said it because I lied to our audience and said Nia had already known about the account. And he was referring to that. Why are you still lying? Like, Nia didn't know about the account. And so there was that. I was telling other lies were kind of starting to come up in this car ride. And you and I were taking back to our Airbnb from the conference the next day.

So you made that video while you were still at the conference basically telling everyone, yeah, this happened a while ago, but I never cheated on her. It was just the accounts. It was just conversations. And she already knew about it. Your brother texted you. So this is all happening in a matter of like a couple days. Right.

So y'all are driving back to the Airbnb in Seattle. And you just felt what, did you feel pressure, conviction? Why did you feel like you had to keep going with your confession? Yeah. So I'm still lying to Nia after all these years. I'm like, I never intended to still be lying about this stupid account. And my other things, after some of the years, I thought it would be in my past and would be done with it.

I was living for the Lord. I had a close relationship with him. and I'm still lying to my wife and it's eating away at me. So we pull over the car, I call my pastor and I'm telling him, I'm saying, bro, can I just tell you more that went on behind his back and it'd be okay for me just to tell you. Is this the same guy who disciples you originally who asked you to go get coffee or was this someone else? Someone else, the actual pastor. The pastor who had prayed over you when you walked down the aisle?

Or is this different pastor? Okay, nothing wrong with it. Nothing wrong with that. All three of those guys played huge. All of them. So I was just curious if he was the same guy is either of us. He's the guy in the documentary, Pastor Bo. Right.

If you saw that. Okay. So you called him. You just felt this pressure, which I think was the Holy Spirit, just convicting you, telling you, you got to do it, you got to do it. And you were hoping that the pastor would tell you, oh, no, you don't have to tell her. Yeah. Right.

Right. Well, I mean, that's what sin does. Sin does make us stupid. Sin makes people stupid. And so you were thinking that you would be able to keep it a secret. And you were almost like hoping for his blessing. Yes. But he did not stray away from just getting straight to the truth.

He was just like, brother, live in truth. And when he said living truth, which is the title of our book, that was probably the most impactful three lines of my life. I was just like, wow. It's like God just gave me this foretaste of freedom for my secrets. And it like tasted amazing. And he was like, oh, you have to just tell me everything if you want the full portion of it. And I felt God was just leading me to this point all my life.

Like nobody had ever told me to live in truth. I didn't even know that was a possibility. And what? You're so cute. I just like to hear. I like hearing it. So I get back and I was like, okay, yeah, I guess for the first time of my life, I feel like this is not only possible to do, but necessary.

So like, it was a huge, huge moment for me. And so I get in my car and, I'll just basically take off these shackles that have been binding me or my snare, as I describe it, and pulling off these ropes that have been snare me. And as I'm pulling them off, they're all landing on Nia and snaring her. And it's just one of the most profoundly unfair moments of my life and most painful yet freeing, very, whatever, complicated. And you mean unfair because now the wife that you love is having to deal with the concept. of your sin. Right. And because I'm living in freedom and I'm like feeling amazing. I'm like like

literally ball and chains are coming off my ankles and my wife is over. They're getting imprisoned at the same time. It was just a very unfair situation. Um and so you had, I don't know if there was specifics in the documentary and we don't have to get any more specific than you guys are comfortable with, but there were just multiple affairs towards the beginning of the marriage. Yeah. Multiple emotional affairs. Just different things I've done behind her back. Flotacious relationships. Yeah. And you mentioned that there was someone that you were close to that she basically cut herself like out of your life because you had pursued her romantically. Yeah. I mean, there are multiple reasons why our paths were no longer walking so close together, but I can remember when she, you know, she moved away. And it was multiple reasons, but I can remember when the conversation was first brought up. I just look back on that time of her making these decisions and stuff like that and, you know, kind of knowing what was going on under the surface. And we had a great conversation. And I share a lot about it in the book.

But we had a great conversation after he confessed everything to me. And, you know, I asked her why she never told me. We were really, really close. And she didn't reciprocate his feelings. So it seems kind of like obvious, like just warn me or something. And she said, I just thought I was the only one. You guys were still really newlyweds. And I thought I was just the only one.

I would just get out of the picture. And it would all go away. And he would go back to normal. And so, you know, that wasn't the case. So you all have been able to reconnect because I was wondering. about that. We had closure. I wouldn't say there's been a reconnection much, but closure. Yeah. And still a lot of love in that relationship. So it was emotional cheating. It wasn't physical. There was some physical stuff too, yeah. Yeah. I just don't care more detailed.

I mean, it's in our book and it's in the documentary. Like everybody knows there's multiple things. Yeah, that's fine. And you're obviously feeling shocked and betrayed. as anyone would. At this point, did you still feel like it was game day? Or were you like, nope, this is too much? Yeah, no, no more game day. I was done. I was like, this is it.

I'm not going to stay married to you. I really couldn't see away from my own self because he was making a lot of big promises. As long as it takes, I'll be here, I'll wait, you know, as long as it takes for you to forgive me. And I'm like, it's not even just about forgiveness, but like, I don't think I could ever get over the things you're saying. telling me, like I'll never be happy or look at you the same way or, you know, my life, like just

my life, our children are home. Like, it all was tainted in that moment. And it took a long time for me to see things any other way. It was all tainted for so long. After that car ride, what happened? What did it look like when you left and went home? We didn't go home right away. We were still in the Airbnb for one more night and it was rough. I told him I was not going to stay married to him. We still had to travel home together. So we actually missed our flight the next day and had to get an overnight flight and we made it home. It was our daughter's first day of school. So we got home and immediately it was like five in the morning. We got home and got her ready. Our moms were both there helping and, you know, just to be there as well. Took her to school. And I,

I told him like, just get like the way this goes is going to be our life forever. You know, I'll take a picture of you with her. You can take a picture of me with her. We're not taking a family photo. You can stand over there. I'll stand over here with my friend. Like this is just what it will be like if we're going to have any interactions. And our pastors who were also our friends, our pastor's wife specifically convinced me to come to a marriage counseling session that day after we dropped our daughter off at school.

and I agreed to do that really because I just wanted to like unload everything he confessed I really wanted to embarrass him I guess and I wanted to hear them come down hard on him and they did and it was a really rough first session a lot of things were said on my part too a lot of things were said and I but anyway that that went on for a while just showing up to marriage counseling just to kind of hope that I could hear people come down hard on him. But eventually it started to soften my heart. And it's a really long answer. I can keep talking. I just, you know, started searching the Bible. What does the Bible say about divorce? What does it say about adultery? What does it say about remarriage? I mean, there were just so many things to consider as a Christian

if I wanted to make the right decision for my relationship with God. And even his, you know, we were so young. Like we probably both would have gotten remarried. What about the future of our children and their stepparents and each other? It was a lot. It was so much, but I, I dove in and I researched it all. Obviously, you felt betrayed. Yeah. But did you feel equally as betrayed by the secrecy and the prolonged lying as you did, the actual cheating? Like, did the line bother you just as much? Yes, for sure. It definitely did. I mean, it was the length of time in between, even though he had been living for the Lord. Like I said, there was just this view of my life that was tainted, even, you know, like because of the lies. Like, I wasn't really living in reality. I felt very tricked and very just in the dark.

I come to find out, I mean, I came to find out the people in our life who knew that he had been unfaithful and never told me. And it was just, there's a lot of betrayal when you put it in that perspective. There's people who were kind of protecting him and were thinking they were protecting me and they weren't. Yeah. It's a lot to consider. Yeah. Gosh. Sin just involves so many people.

And when you're first attempted to send, Satan convinces you. It's just you. You're never going to hurt anyone. It's only going to affect you. And then you're describing all these people, friends, family, kids, community, church. Like sin is just so. pervasive in that way. And of course, Satan loves to destroy marriages. And there are plenty of people who would have gotten a divorce. And they would have said, you know what? This is unfaithfulness.

And I'm completely justified. So tell me you're thinking, what did you learn in those counseling sessions that eventually softened your heart? Well, for starters, I saw true repentance on Sam's part. I mean, he was truly repentant, you know, and I had known him for over 10 years at this point. I could see the difference. And, I mean, he was just not budging. He was bending over, I mean, as maybe some people would say, well, he should have. But, I mean, he was a different man. I was seeing a different side of him, committed to me and our family, just truly living for the Lord.

And everything that he was doing, even though I wanted to be separate from him, he was reading the Bible to our children in front of me. and even though I wanted him to leave, like he would do that first and then he would leave, you know, at night and go stay somewhere else. But really, I think what started to change my heart towards him was just listening to the Holy Spirit and being aware of like what I had been learning before his confessions. I just knew without a shadow of a doubt that the Holy Spirit had laid on my heart that we would be in marriage ministry one day before he ever confessed anything. and I had forgotten about that with his confessions and all of that, but through all the praying I was doing, just asking him to show me, show me, what do you want me to do? Like, what is the right thing here?

He's so repentant. We had a family. I really loved him. I wasn't cheating. He was. And, you know, he had not done it in so long, and he was so repentant. Like, did I really want to start over and didn't risk going through this or something similar with another guy?

I mean, all men have their own struggles. It's like, why would I? why would I want to put my own self in that position or just work it out with the person I love? But really, like, to, like, long, what was it? Not long story short, but short story long. I just, like, really had to learn what forgiveness really was and what the Bible said about marriage and, like, how marriage is such a picture of the gospel. It's just not as black and white as I always thought, oh, a man cheats. You're justified to divorce.

It's really not that black and white if you get done. and really get into the scriptures. And I wasn't willing to take a risk at living in sin the rest of my life or the father of my children living in sin the rest of his life when we could go forward and heal. Are you willing to talk about that a little bit more? Because you're right. A lot of people do think it's black and white and it's almost like, oh, well, if this is easy, I can just get out of it. But you're right. It's not as simple as Jesus saying, yeah, definitely get a divorce if this happens. That's not really what the scripture says. So could you talk a little bit more about that? Yeah, sure. I mean, one scripture says outright, God hates divorce. And I was strongly

considering something that the God I worship and serve and want to, I wanted to follow what was right for my life. That's what I wanted. I didn't even care about him at this point. I wanted to do what was right for me as a Christian. And so I was considering something that God hates while my husband was actually repentant. It's not like he was struggling with, oh, you know, I might not be able to quit, but I want to quit. Like, he was done. That life was over. And I had to consider all of that that that we could go forward and have a Christian, godly marriage, living in truth, being open and just working with one another, with our, not working with, but, you know, supporting each other and being there for each other with the flaws. I mean, my flaws, his flaws, everything laid out on the

table and go forward in honesty and open communication and all of that. But yeah, The scripture just, you know, I really always thought if a man cheats, you can divorce. But then there's the conversation of like adultery and what does that even mean? It's not just cheating on your spouse. Adultery actually can mean to divorce people coming together. I don't know how deep into this you want to go. How technical. But yeah, there's a lot to it.

Yeah, I do think some people see it as like a command to divorce if there is unfaithfulness. but some of the most beautiful testimonies that I have heard are of couples who have overcome that, either the husband or the wife being unfaithful to their marriage vows in a variety of ways and still reconciling through the power of the Holy Spirit. Now, that's not to say there is never any reason whatsoever to divorce. There are biblical reasons to divorce. But, you know, as you explain, divorce affects a lot of people for generations. And so it's a much more serious, much deeper and more profound thing than I think a lot of people realize.

So y'all kind of reached this place of reconciliation and redemption. What does that look like for y'all publicly as bloggers, as people who did a Netflix documentary? What has it been like sharing that story? I would say it's been a 50-50 response from people. Some people are like cheering us on. proud and then the other 50% are people just kind of hating and they just don't get it you know they just yeah they just believe once a cheater always a cheater and they believe infidelity means automatic divorce like you guys were talking about and there's no changing their minds and there's a lot of that

yeah i mean as far like personally our family our community our church community has been so supportive and proud. And I mean, that's, that's all I can. Like, as long as the people who really know us are seeing the truth and seeing this, you know, how, how, just the way God moved in our, our relationship together, but individually with him, it was just so beautiful. Like, it seems worth the risk to tell it. Not just that.

We had already been sitting down with other couples. You know, this is already an open story for us before the documentary came out. So for us, it's like God has been prepared. our hearts to kind of speak, talk about our testimony, speak out about our testimony long before the documentary came out. And so this just kind of seemed like the next step, the obvious next step for us, since we are living in public, we've always saw this as our ministry. And this is where God has redeemed our lives the most.

Okay. And you've said on Instagram a couple times that you feel like Netflix didn't represent you completely accurately. And you already explained one of those times, like the timing of when you stopped Ashley Madison and like the YouTube channel. But what were some other ways that you felt like Netflix didn't depict this accurately? So that was the biggest one. It made it look like I traded my adulterous thoughts for YouTube, went from one vice to the next. And then they also took a line that I now look back and see

that they kind of manipulated me into saying, and I finally agreed to saying it, not knowing what their agenda was. They had me say the line, the validation I was seeking outside of my marriage was replaced the validation in YouTube. I said something along those lines in the documentary. And that was the line.

they fed me and they had me say. And I regret saying anything that they fed me. But, you know, in the moment when you really respect the people behind the camera. And that's part of their job to make you feel like y'all are friends. We're on your team. I'm not saying, I don't know, maybe they're all good people, but that's kind of part of what they do. And they were good at it.

We still love them. I mean, I love the director. He's an awesome dude. But it's kind of frustrating to see that I was manipulating that way. Even though there's truth, there's some truth of that. I still struggle with seeking validation from other people. But that's not what saved me from, you know, string. YouTube did not save me from adultery.

Yeah, they definitely did make it seem like that. Yeah, it's pretty frustrating. Was there anything else? I mean, for me, yeah, I think, like, a lot of people have asked me privately, even friends and family, like, have asked me, which friends did he sleep with? I'm like, well, he didn't sleep with any of my friends. Like, they kind of just made it sound like he was having all of this random sex.

And he wasn't. He, I mean, we've agreed not to go into too many details, but there was one. There was only one. And it was not a friend of mine. And it was nobody we knew. And, like, that's frustrating for me just to keep having to explain something that we've moved so far beyond. But to, like, family even, like, that they're just hearing it for the first time, some of them. there was another one.

I'm blanking on it now. There was another one that, oh, yeah. I felt like they kind of made it seem like it was like, Ashley Madison confessions, bam, she forgave him because she's so dumb. I don't know. That's just kind of like how the haters are portraying it. But man, it was like years of hard, hard work and intense counseling and long, hard conversations before I reached a point of like, like freely forgiving him. I mean, I held on to it

for so long. I questioned him day after day after day about past and current things. It was a really, I would like gruesome journey to actually having a freedom from the forgiveness that I was wanting to have. Does that make sense? Like I knew, like I knew like you can say, I forgive him. I'm going to forgive him. But to actually walk that out took a lot of hard work. And the documentary made it look like I was just like, okay, we'll stay together. You know, and it wasn't like that. I was pleased that they did allow y'all to incorporate your faith. And that at the end, I do think that they showed that there was reconciliation and redemption. You're right. Maybe they kept it superficial. But I was actually kind of pleasantly surprised at the end how they depicted

you all. And I was glad for that. Of course, there's going to be people with anti-Christian bias who want to believe that you are just being oppressed, that you don't have your own autonomy and you can't make your own decisions. And those people also don't believe in redemption because they don't know the gospel. Have you all gotten negativity from Christians? A little bit. There have been some that are, I mean, you mentioned a lot of your followers probably aren't even on Netflix. There was some of that. I can't believe you guys are back on it.

Like you said you were done with Netflix. You know, like we got some of that. And, you know, some people questioning why we would even be a part of something that was overall, like,

dark and all about cheating. It's like what, like we kind of look at it like, there was some weird stuff in there, which I don't blame y'all for it. We didn't have a clue. No, when y'all were part of it.

But I also was not expecting some of the stuff that I saw. Yeah. I mean, we're called to be the light and the darkness. It's a dark place. It's like we can't completely stray away from, you know, speaking our testimony just because it's a dark place. So it's not a documentary I suggest the Christians like at church.

I don't say, go see this documentary. I just don't. I said, in fact, I wouldn't see it. Yeah. Like this is what God calls. You can watch this interview instead. Yeah, exactly. We'll send them here.

Yeah. For sure. Yeah. What else would you want to say? Maybe what would you say to a couple who finds themselves in a similar situation where one side is like, I just don't know that I can forgive even though he or she is repentant and wants to move on? To that, I would say you can. And there's more than one path when someone betrays you, that it's not, you know, the only,

divorce is not the only option. And ending your marriage, separating your family is not the only option. And I know there's cases where that is the only option or that's the right option. But I do believe that there are people out there who have repentant spouses that want to stay married. And maybe they feel pressured by the world, society, their friends, their whoever, co-workers. It's just not the only option. I just want people to know it's possible. It is possible to work through all of that hurt and all of that together and make it to the other side

and have real true joy and intimacy and fun together again. And what would you say, Sam, to someone who has secret sin and they're battling with the conviction to live in truth, but they really don't want to because they're afraid of what they're going to lose? I don't say make sure you're grounded in the word of God, first of all. Don't do it alone. You can't get out of pornography or the lie of women alone. You just can't.

Men try, we can't do it in our own will. We need the Lord. And we need other men of God to do that with us. And I would encourage them. I feel like God created men with this really strong and they desired for adventure. And I feel like we mistake that for other women. And we chase after women because we think that's what adventure life has. But I think they're missing out on like what God has truly called them for,

which is such a deeper, more beautiful, more fun adventure, you know, than women could ever. offer us like as I go deeper and deeper with the Lord the adventure he calls me to is just it's unmatched and so I would first say you know find another man who can support you through this because you can't do it alone submit to God and his word completely and go for it Go for it. Take the leap. Yeah, take the leap. I think, too, like if I could talk to those guys or girls who are having secrets in, your spouse is a lot stronger than you think they are.

You know, one of his things he said he thought it would crush me and destroy me. And I think, and he has said this before, that he was surprised by how strong I actually was. And I don't know why we fear that if it's like our own, like we're projecting how scared we are. Or the liar, whoever's got the secret sin is projecting the fear. but your spouse is a lot stronger than you think and they can handle it. I'm sure it is painful. It's always painful. Every time I have to make confession to knee and I think of a verse in Proverbs.

What is it? Dang it. Blows that hurt, cleanse away evil and, you know, something like that. Blows that hurt, cleanse away evil, as do the innermost parts. But anyway, every time I make confession to knee, it's a blow that hurts and it cleanses away evil. I think the most mainliest thing a man can do is to confess their sin to the person that hurt the most most painful thing I think a man could possibly do to humble themselves that low. And it truly does cleanse away evil because you literally get to look right in the face what your

sin is doing. And it's like it will knock you out and be like, whoa. Yeah, my sin is serious. It's ugly and not worth it in the slightest. Yeah. I mean, you really are like when you do that, you're getting to like the heart of what happened in the garden because like how did Adam handle accountability? It was the woman you gave me. How did the woman handle accountability?

It was the snake. And then, I mean, finally, you know, God makes them bear the responsibility and we're still bearing those consequences to this day. And so everyone to one degree or another struggles with that. But like I always think about this quote by C.S. Lewis, this is a paraphrase because I can't remember the exact words, but it's like worry is picturing the future without God's grace in it. Because God's grace is always in the present moment. And so when we think about, oh my gosh, when I confess this or when I do that scary thing, you picture the world falling apart. Well, you're picturing that moment without God's grace meeting you and it will.

and the transformative strengthening power of that just can't even be, you know, properly understood. And I think that, you know, y'all's testimony is a real testament to that. I want to hear more about your book, just where people can find it, how they can read it. I love the cover. It's so pretty. Live in Truth by Sam and Nia. I'm guessing it's wherever books are sold. Amazon.

It's our memoir, the past 10 years of our life, which has been in terms of. saying journey to live it and then to write it. But it's our journey of God bringing me to a life of living in truth. Me to a life of, well, also living in truth in a different way, but just, you know, in forgiveness and just being understanding and loving, you know, this, you said the cover, this is from our vow renewal. And there's a lot of, there's a lot in our story that God is redeemed, like just so beautifully. And I love. that we get to share it with so many people and just say like, hey, you don't have to hang on to the dark parts of your life. God wants to flood it with his light, and he will, if we just keep our

eyes open for it, he will flood the darkness in your life with light. Even the parts that are already gone and you think you look back and you can look at it and it's maybe got a dark shadow on it. He will still infiltrate that and show you where he was in that moment. And all the other amazing things that happen when we let go of sin. like we don't realize that percent is really keeping us from an amazing incredible calling yes and amen well thank you all so much thank you for taking the time to share your story i encourage people to go out and get your book we can put the link in the description so people can click on it easily thank you all so much thank you