Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 1021 | #SBCToo? Another Accused Megachurch Pastor

Episode Date: June 18, 2024

Today, we discuss the recent confession of "inappropriate sexual behavior with a young lady" from Pastor Robert Morris of Gateway Church. The alleged victim, Cindy Clemishire, claims the abuse began when she was just 12 years old and Morris was 21 and lasted for more than four years. What does this mean for Christians, particularly in light of Pastor Tony Evans' recent resignation over sin? Are all Christians qualified to be teachers? And how can victims of abuse find solace in Scripture? Plus, the Southern Baptist Church recently voted on an amendment concerning female pastors. We discuss the outcome and what this means for the SBC. Get your tickets for Share the Arrows: https://www.sharethearrows.com/ --- Timecodes: (01:10) Introduction (03:15) Introduction to Robert Morris (16:00) Church response / statement (28:30) Reason for his sabbatical (33:49) Commentary on X (38:47) Morris's past sermons & my experience in the SBC (52:53) What Scripture says about this (01:05:03) SBC votes on female pastors & IVF --- Today's Sponsors: Good Ranchers — Change the way you buy meat today at GoodRanchers.com with code ALLIE to claim your $100 off and free smoked brats for a year.  Get free shipping on all your orders and make this Independence Day one to remember.  Jase Medical — get up to a year’s worth of many of your prescription medications delivered in advance. Go to JaseMedical.com today and use promo code “ALLIE". Pre-Born — will you help rescue babies' lives? Donate by calling #250 & say keyword 'BABY' or go to Preborn.com/ALLIE. Covenant Eyes — protect you and your family from the things you shouldn't be looking at online. Go to coveyes.com/ALLIE to try it FREE for 30 days! --- Relevant Episodes: Ep 1020 | Botched: The Brutality of Trans Mastectomies | Guest: Soren Aldaco https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/ep-1020-botched-the-brutality-of-trans/id1359249098?i=1000659311855 Ep 1017 | Dr. Tony Evans Steps Down Over Secret Sin https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/ep-1017-dr-tony-evans-steps-down-over-secret-sin/id1359249098?i=1000658686225 --- Buy Allie's book, You're Not Enough (& That's Okay): Escaping the Toxic Culture of Self-Love: https://alliebethstuckey.com/book Relatable merchandise – use promo code 'ALLIE10' for a discount: https://shop.blazemedia.com/collections/allie-stuckey

Pastor Robert Morris, the founding pastor of Gateway Church, a huge mega church in the Dallas, Texas area, has just announced that he is taking a sabbatical from preaching after confessing to inappropriate sexual behavior with a quote unquote young lady. But the woman who accused him of sexually abusing her says that she was only 12 when this happened. We have all of the details so much. on this story as well as a biblical response to it all on today's episode of Relatable. It's brought to you by our friends at Good Ranchers. Go to Go to Goode Ranchers.com. Use code alia. Check out that's good ranchers.com code alley. Hey guys, welcome to Relatable. Happy Tuesday. Hope everyone has had a wonderful week so far. You've got to listen to yesterday's episode or watch it if you haven't already. Soren the detransitioner that we talked to. It's just amazing. She's so articulate and she had so many pieces of wisdom to share with us, especially parents. She's so young and she was so young when she went

through everything that she did. And we have a lot to learn from her about the internet and different forms of media and content that can really groom children into believing destructive lies about their bodies and their identities. And also she just speaks to the importance of familial stability too, how crucial that is to a healthy upbringing. Share that with every mom and dad that you know and just pray for her too. Pray for her heart. Pray for her protection. Pray for the lawsuit that it would be successful, that it would cause doctors to at the very least think twice before they cause irreparable damage to young people to any person, but especially to young, vulnerable, very often mentally unstable, young people. Oh, my goodness.

And at best, they should be held liable. They should be so afraid that they are going to lose money and lose their licenses, that they won't prescribe cross-sex hormones, that they won't be performing double mastectomies and falloplasties in all of that absolute. brutal botchery that they currently perform for lots and lots of money. So her lawsuit is so important. Keep your eyes on that. Go watch yesterday's episode. All right. We've got so much to get into today. I wish that we did not have to talk about some of the things that we are discussing today, but we must because victims' voices matter. They matter in particular when it comes to these egregious cases

of sexual assault that happens within the church, within the body of Christ, or at least among people who profess to be among the body of Christ. This time we're talking about Pastor Robert Morris. Pastor Morris is the founding pastor of Gateway Church in South Lake, Texas. Now, you'll remember just last week, we talked about Tony Evans. He is also a megachurch pastor in the Dallas area. He did not give any specifics as to the sin that was committed in his life and why he was stepping down and why he was going to have to go through this process of repentance and restoration. He didn't give any clarity on that.

He just said it was a sin. It wasn't illegal, but it was not above reproach. And therefore, I am going through this process with my church and with my family. we discussed that. You can go watch that episode. And now we are talking about another Dallas megachurch pastor, except this time we know exactly what happened, or at least according to the accuser, we know exactly what happened. And Pastor Robert Morris doesn't seem to be denying this. So I'll just give you a summary and then we'll back up and we'll talk about the very disturbing details. And then we'll look at what the Bible has to say about all of

of this. So Gateway Church is a huge church. It's actually the biggest church in America because it has many different congregations, not just its main congregation. It's got satellite locations. It's got various branches. So it's estimated that the church among all of its campuses attracts an estimated 100,000 attendees every week, which is insane. He has confessed to, these are his words, quote unquote, inappropriate sexual behavior with a young lady more than 35 years ago while he was a young pastor. Now you might be thinking, okay, this was in the 1980s, this was 35 years ago. Who cares? Maybe that's your thought. He was a, young person then and okay he had some premarital sex or maybe he went too far with his

same age girlfriend at the time. Why is this even a big deal now if he has been walking in purity since then? But that is not what happened. I want you to pay close attention to what he said that he has confessed to inappropriate sexual behavior with a young lady. So that implies that this was some kind of consensual interaction with a woman, but that's not what went on. He also claimed that he stepped down in 1987 for a time of counseling. He was forgiven by this person, and he was restored to his position in ministry. However, here's what really went down, at least according to the accuser. And there are plenty of corroborating. Plenty of corroborating. evidence to this. So the woman who accused him of sexual abuse, her name is Cindy Clemishire.

She said that the abuse actually began when she was 12 years old. That was the first time. She claimed she was assaulted by Robert Morris when he was 21. He was also married at the time. He was a pastor and he was a father of a little boy. She says that this abuse lasted over four years. And so She recently told her story to the Warburg Watch last Friday, and now it is gaining ground. This is not the first time she's talked about it. She actually tried to sue him in 2005. It didn't really make headlines. It didn't really circulate like it is today.

Maybe there are a variety of factors why this is picking up so much steam now. Some of it is just because of the cultural moment that we're in. Some of it could be because the SBC just had its annual conference. Some of it could be because Tony Evans had to step down at least temporary. as of last week. It has to do with Me Too and the Church to and the SBC2 movement. There was a report not too long ago about some potential or some allegations of abuse within the SBC and some potential cover-ups there. And so now that this accusation is coming to light yet again in further detail at this moment and in the time of social media, which is very different than 2005,

it is really gaining ground. And so she gave some details to the Warpberg watch that are just really, really troubling and do not match up with Robert Morris's story. And what he said went down and really makes us a question, how we, how we... we within the SBC conduct ministry and really just within the church in general and what accountability and sin and repentance and restoration really look like. So we're going to get into what she told the Warburg Watch in Justice Second as well as reading his churches and his own full statement in response to that. So here's Cindy's story. According to her, she is now in her 50s, by the way, she is a grandmother.

And I don't know everything that led up to her feeling the conviction to share her accusations with the Warburg Watch. So I know a lot of people have that question. Why now, even if she did try to sue him in 2005, which, by the way, they offered her at the time, they, well, she had. and her lawyer tried to get $50,000 to cover the counseling expenses in 2005. But according to her, Morris's attorney, Pastor Morris's attorney, implied that they believed it was her fault for being, quote, unquote, flirtatious. And so they offered her $25,000 if she signed a non-disclosure agreement.

But she actually refused that. So she didn't take the money because she didn't want to sign the NDA. So I guess that case at the time really didn't come to anything. So why now almost 20 years later and then 35 years after the alleged abuse is she coming forward? I don't really know. But let's get into what she says happened. So the abuse, she says, began when Morris was already married, working as a traveling evangelist. He was 21 years old. He became a family friend and stayed with a family when he preached at their.

Oklahoma congregation. So she lived in Oklahoma as a child. The Morris says, so Pastor Morris, his wife, their child were invited into their home. They often went on trips together. She says around Christmas in 1982, the Morris family came to visit Cindy's family on Christmas Day. Cindy sat in the back seat of the car with Robert where he asked Cindy to come to his room that night. So the room that he was staying in at her parents' house. Cindy, she says that She was just an innocent 12-year-old girl that she knew nothing about sexuality or anything, which is normal, should be normal for a preteen. She described what she was wearing.

She says that she was wearing pink pajamas, a snap-up robe. It makes me want to cry, just the innocence of it. She thought nothing of visiting a family friend in their bedroom. Again, you're just not thinking of that stuff. And remember, this is the 1980s. She was not a 12-year-old with TikTok who was watching, you know, scandalous TV shows and movies. She didn't know when this was a pastor. This was someone that, according to her, her parents had befriended and really trusted.

She said that Morris asked her to lie down on her back, and this is disturbing. But I think it's important that her story is being told and then proceeded to touch her stomach, groped her breast, genitalia. She said the sexual contact escalated to digital rape over the following five years. Cindy claims also she claims that when she was a bit older, that he would invite her into his car and try to have sex with her. Clemishire claims that Morris repeatedly abused her in Texas and in Oklahoma because the Clemishire family would stay at the Morris home in Texas. Cindy's father donated money to Robert's ministry, not realizing at the time what was happening to his daughter. Morris often told his wife, so I guess when he would go off and he would abuse allegedly, Cindy, he told his wife, oh, we're just having a counseling session.

I'm just counseling her. Morris was pastoring Shady Grove Church in Grand Prairie when Clemishire finally told her parents everything that had happened in 1987. So this is five years after she says the initial abuse happened. Shady Grove Church would eventually become what is Gateway Church now. She told her friend first what was happening and her friend said you've got to tell your parents. You've got to do this. And of course, I'm sure she was very afraid. when her father found out, she says, he told the lead pastor at Shady Grove Church that if Morris didn't get out of ministry, he would get the police involved. And of course, he should have gone to the police immediately. That is what should have happened.

He should have immediately gone to the police. Okay, this goes out of the realm of just church discipline. The civil authorities must be involved. Not everything needs to be handled within the church. God has given us the realm of civil authorities to keep evil in check. And because this is a crime, not just something that Christians consider sin, it is, but it is also an egregious crime. It needed to be handled by civil authorities immediately.

But it wasn't. It was kept within the church. Now, during this time, Cindy said that she received a call from Debbie Morris, Robert's wife. So they're in their mid-20s at this point who told Cindy that she forgave her, This is, again, according to Cindy, that she got the phone call, said, I forgive you from his wife. Now, Cindy believes that Robert had told his wife that it was Cindy's fault. Again, that was allegedly echoed by his attorney in 2005 when the attorney accused Cindy of being flirtatious. Remember, Cindy was apparently, according to her 12 years old when she was abused.

Morris, though he returned to Shady Grove in 1989. So he did leave the ministry in response to this whole thing. thing after two years of counseling. Morris said he resumed preaching with Clemishire's father's blessing. That's what he said. We'll get to more of that in a second when he says that in his statement. But Clemishire says that's not exactly what went down. Here is the full statement by the elders of Gateway Church as well as Pastor Robert Morris.

So this was published. I saw it in WFAA news. This statement was given shortly after the story was published last Friday. From the elders of Gateway Church, Pastor Robert has been open and forthright about a moral failure he had over 35 years ago when he was in his 20s and prior to him starting at Gateway Church. And so you see all the stipulations there. It's not a denial, but it's saying, well, it was so long ago and he was so young. that's what they're trying to say. He has shared publicly from the pulpit the proper biblical steps he took in this lengthy restoration process.

The two-year restoration process was closely administered by the elders at Shady Grove Church and included him stepping out of the ministry during that period while receiving professional counseling and freedom ministry counseling. Since the resolution of the 35-year-old matter, there have been no other moral failures. Pastor Robert has walked in purity, and he has placed accountability measures in people in his life. the matter has been properly disclosed to church leadership. So, I mean, my problem with this is that they don't mention that he committed a crime, that he actually, according to this woman, molested a child.

Okay? And they don't deny that. That's the thing is that all these details came out and they didn't say, whoa, whoa, whoa, this young woman, she was in her 20s. This did not happen in 1985. is happening in 1990, whatever. They don't deny that. So I think that's strange. If these allegations are not true,

you would think that they would vehemently deny him having some kind of sexual interaction. That's probably not even the appropriate way to say it or that he advanced sexually upon a child. I think that they would have specified, hang on a second, that part is not true. But they didn't specify that. They said that it was a moral failure over 35 years ago in his. 20s. I'm not, I'm just not sure what, what that changes. He was a husband and father and pastor, and he, according to her, molested a preteen girl. Robert Morris states, when I was in my early 20s, I was involved in a, okay, just listen to this, an inappropriate sexual behavior with a young

lady in a home where I was staying. It was kissing and petting and not intercourse, but it was wrong. He does not deny that she was 12. But he says with a young lady. No, it wasn't sexual behavior with a young lady. That implies if her report is correct, what he is implying here is wrong because he is implying that this was an interaction, that this was something that was reciprocated. It was happening with her and a young lady. No, this was molestation of a child. This was sexual assault of a child. This was eventual, according to her, digital rape of a child.

He says this behavior happened on several occasions over the next few years. It sounds to me like he is confirming what she said. In March of 1987, the situation was brought to light. So, because she told her parents. and it was Shady Grove Church. Oh, and it was confessed and repented of. Well, he was caught. Okay.

That's, I guess, one way to lead to confession and repented of. Now, I'm not sure that that is true. I'm not sure that that is exactly true. Now, I'm saying he may have turned away from that and may have never done that again. Maybe that would be extremely. unique when it comes to these stories of pedophilic molestation. Like that would be extremely, extremely unique. I hope that is true.

I hope that there are no other victims. It may be true that he turned around after that from that sin and he never committed that sin again. Please, God, I hope that is true. However, real repentance in this case would have included justice under the law. law. That would have been a part of this true repentance process because that would have been a part of walking in truth. He says, I submitted myself to the elders of Shady Grove Church and the young lady's father. They asked me to step out of ministry and receive counseling and freedom ministry,

which I did. Since that time, I've walked impurity and accountability in this area. Two years later, in March of 1989, I stepped back into ministry with the full blessing of the elders and her father. In October of 1989, Debbie and I met with her and her family, and I asked their forgiveness, and they graciously forgave me. The sin was dealt with correctly by confession and repentance, which I did in 1987 and 1989. Another part that I don't agree with here is that it was dealt with correctly by confession and repentance. Okay, again, I would say that's wrong just because it wasn't, he should have submitted to, law enforcement. And there should have been, of course, due process and all of that, absolutely.

But that should have happened. Cindy deserved that. God's justice, I think, demands that. So that was incorrect, but also the fact that he was restored to ministry after that. I think we have this idea that just because you're forgiven by the person that you send against, that you get restored to every position that you were in before. And that is not the biblical definition of restoration or repentance. That's not something that you're entitled to. In fact, that may have been a privilege, a gift that God had given you, that you do not get to steward anymore, that you don't get to take anymore because

this is not a position that you have proven yourself able to hold in integrity. Now, I think it depends on the sin. I think it depends on the indiscretion that happened. But in this case, when we're talking about the alleged sexual assault of a child, I don't think that restoration need include restoration to the position of pastor, where there are going to be lots of interactions with young vulnerable children. Cindy responded to the statement given by Gateway Church and Morris in comments to the Christian Post. She said she was appalled that Morris referred to her as a young lady.

She says, I was 12 years old. I was a little girl, a very innocent little girl. And he was brought into our home. He and his wife, Debbie, and their little boy, Josh, and trusted and preached at the church that my dad helped start and they began grooming all of us to do this, which took me decades to wrap my brain around as an adult. She says it went on for many years. He says there was no sexual intercourse, but he did touch every part of my body. And this is graphic. He says, she says inserted his fingers into me, which I understand now is considered a form of rape by instrumentation. I was an innocent 12-year-old

little girl who knew nothing about sexual behavior. And then she responds to the part where Pastor Morris said that he was given her father's blessing to enter back into ministry. She says, my father never ever gave his blessing on Robert returning to ministry, exclamation mark. My father told him he's lucky he didn't kill him. I am mortified that he is telling the world my dad gave his blessing, of course. We forgive because we are called the biblically forgive those who sin against us. But that does not mean he is supposed to go on without repercussions, she said, and that is true. She told the Christian Post that she has been warning churches and pastors who would listen to her story about Morris

because she doesn't believe she's the only one who suffered abuse. She also argued that he shouldn't be serving in ministry and should step down. She says, I don't think he ever should have been allowed to be in the ministry. We would never allow someone to go teach in a school, work in a daycare, be a doctor. If anybody had done these things, and I have a very difficult time believing I'm the only one. And I think if you just look at the pattern of this type of abuse, it is understandable for her to have those suspicions. We do not know if that is true. These are all accusations. But again, I don't see denial. I don't see denial from Pastor Morris or even the elders, which is just very disturbing.

being. So Morris actually talks about this period of time in his life in a book that he wrote in 2011, titled From Dream to Destiny. He says he stepped down from the ministry when he was 25 due to issues of pride. So this coincides with the time that he stepped down from ministry, which he now says was because he was caught in, you know, of serial molestation. And he had to step away because the father said, I'm going to go to the police if you don't step down. He is now admitting that that is what happened. Or he is at least admitting that he stepped down because of these accusations and because of these sins and crimes. But how he wrote it in 2011, he said, oh, I stepped down during this time because of pride. And at least in this passage, she doesn't talk about everything that was happening,

allegedly with Cindy. He says, by the time I was 25, I had become far too accustomed to hearing people tell me how gifted I was. I began to listen to this praise worse. I was beginning to expect it. Deep down, I knew I was prideful, but I didn't know what to do about it. So I began to pray about it, asking God for help. I said, God, I know I have pride. I know I have insecurity that makes me vulnerable to it. I need to be free of this, but I don't know what to do. He says that the Lord told him or convicted him to take a regular job. And so he says he became, like a security guard at a motel six during this time to deal with his pride. He says, but try as I might, I could not get rid of that thought of leaving the ministry and going to a regular

job. He got stronger and stronger to the Lord orchestrated the circumstances for me to step out of the ministry. I finally did what the Lord suggested. I stepped out of the ministry and started looking for a job. We have a picture of that page so you can verify it for yourself. And so he has been kind of open about leaving ministry during that time. But at least as recently as 2011, he wasn't clear about why. And that is a lie by omission. Okay. I mean, that's a lie, I think, by a lot of definitions to claim that you left the ministry

for a reason that you didn't. And in a book that you claim as a Christian book, that you're also making money off of, I assume, that is a sin. And you were doing this while you were a pastor of one of the biggest, not the biggest churches in Texas. That alone is disqualifying. So a little bit more about his background. He started Gateway Church in 2000 and the DFW Metroplex. Remember the church name what it was earlier. What was it? Grand Prairie Shady Grove. right it was shady yeah shady grove church became gateway church okay so in 2000 um it was gateway church in the dfw area and um he also has his uh honorary doctrine of divinity from east texas baptist

university i'm not really sure what his theological background is other other than that uh he has a television program that airs in over 190 countries and his radio program worship in the word with Pastor Robert airs in more than 2,800 radio markets across the country. He searches the chancellor of the King's University. It's the best-selling author of numerous books. He also served, and this is what the media is running with. Of course, he served as a faith advisor to President Trump. He had been an advisor for Mark Driscoll's new church, and so they're saying that this is, you know, it's all connected. in some way. NBC News says woman who accused ex-Trump advisor of molesting her says he shouldn't lead a church.

MSNBC MAGA pastor Robert Morris's sexual abuse scandal underscores the rights hypocrisy on LGBTQ people. Okay. So take. The Guardian, megaturch pastor and ex-Trump advisor admits child sexual abuse. Salon, Texas pastor and ex-Trump advisor admits an appropriate sexual behavior with a child, daily beast Trump's, spiritual advisor quasi confesses to molesting a 12-year-old girl. So of course, that is what they are going to run with. Interesting that they say the hypocrisy on LGBTQ people, because I actually think it's us. We're the only willing people, we're the only people willing to call it out no matter

the political affiliation. I'm not speaking for everyone on the right. Of course, I can't, but I don't care who it is. I don't care if it's someone who is a part of mine's a nomination. I don't care if it's someone who is in my general political camp. I don't care if it's someone who is on the left, an LGBTQ person, a public school teacher, like a Catholic priest. I think that all of it matters. It's actually the left that loves to run cover for people who are predators who also happen to identify as LGBTQ.

They love to say that that absolutely doesn't happen even though we see the pattern over and over again. I think it's important to look for patterns no matter where they exist. So I don't want to hear about the hypocrisy. If you only care about sexual assault, if you only care about sexual depravity when it comes to people that are associated with Donald Trump or who profess to be Christians because you think it's a political slam dunk that says a lot about your heart, not mine. You're not even willing to call out a person who happens to be gay and also a sexual abuser because you're so afraid of accidentally casting LGBTQ people in the wrong light. So it's really it's your hypocrisy, I would say, not ours. There is a few tweets out there that are offering commentary,

lots of tweets out there. Some of them, I think, are interesting. Some of them, of course, are just like gunning for a way to criticize conservative Christians. And you can criticize him, of course. You can criticize conservative Christians all you want to, but no accusation or no criticism de-legitomizes the word of God or calls into question the goodness of God or negates in any way the faithfulness of God. or undermines the gospel of God. All of these terrible things that people are saying about abusers may be true, even abusers within the church. That doesn't change the fact that Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

Hebrews 13A. I don't care if you like, quote, unquote, conservative Christians or evangelicals or a particular pastor, like, I want you to know Christ, which is, by, the way, why these stories are so awful, why I think that they are actually worse in many ways than stories of abuse happening outside of the church, because the church is guarding, is caring, is the agent of the most precious and the only salvific truth message that exists. And so when there is sexual immorality within the church, yes, it is hypocritical. but it also does hurt the church's witness.

And so I'm actually even angrier in many ways about something like this than I am when it happens outside the church. Now the victims, I have the equal compassion for the victims no matter what. But as far as standards of behavior, Christians are to be especially pastors above reproach. And so there is another level of just scrutiny. and righteous anger that I think should accompany stories like this. We have been entrusted with the most precious inheritance. We have been entrusted with the best news.

And when we do not, by the grace of God, prove ourselves worthy of carrying that message because of deceit, because of cover-ups, because of corruption, because of not truly repented of sin in the sense that it was not dealt with in the right way, we really, really harm our mission. We can't inhibit God's will from being done, his gospel from going forth. We cannot hinder his kingdom from being advanced, but gosh, we can cause a lot of hurt and a lot of hesitation in people who are looking to the church to be doers of what we say. Rick, Rick Pitcock, I don't know who that is.

He's a religion writer at Baptist News. He said, when you explain a pastor's sexual assault of a minor by saying it happened in his 20s, which Gateway's statement did say, you're giving permission to all the 20-year-old men in your church to feel less bad about sexually assaulting women. I mean, I think that's probably a fair thing to say. biblical and reformed an account on Acts says it's disturbing how many professing Christians here act as pedo apologists while forgiveness is possible a grown man in ministry who molested child is disqualified from serving as a leader and I agree I agree with that there is this post that's now going around on X it was a public post on Facebook and it was by a woman who is a pastor so

called of Weatherford Church in Texas, and she posted this in defense of Robert Morris. Now, I'm not saying this is representative of even close to most people in the SBC, of course. And I'll talk about that more in a second, but this is probably representative of at least a few people, and this is disturbing. So this is what this so-called pastor says. She says, I want people to not judge Robert Morris because of a mistake he made over 30 years ago. Some young girls at 12 years old are very beautiful and sexy. Barf? They don't understand how men are made, and young men don't understand their actions are used

by the devil to ruin a future God has for them. Other godly men have been distracted by Satan. That's why older men need to mentor young men. Young men don't realize how Satan will try to destroy their futures and their families and ministries. So it's the men who are the victims in this case, apparently. He also gave a couple sermons over the years, has given a couple of sermons of the years that are, I don't know, at least reason for pause. He says, he explains in

one sermon in 2014, that fulfilled lust turns into hate. And what he is describing is if you give into sexual temptation with a man as a woman before a marriage, he will grow to resent you and it will turn back on you. He says, God meant for us to express love in a healthy way. Of course, I agree with that because of the lust that was in my life. He says, it has taken me years to get over the images and the things I saw that no person should ever see and the appetites that were created in me that God never intended to be created to me. So I don't know exactly what he's talking about there. I hope that he was not abused himself. I'm guessing he's talking about some kind of pornography. Pornography is such an awful scourge. But he goes on to say that deception,

that there is deception involved when a young dating couple begins to have sex outside of marriage. He says that this creates an appetite for deception in men. He goes on to say also that this is why some men begin to flirt with women at the office or pursue extramarital relationships. He's satisfying an appetite that you, woman, created in him, he says, he says, I'm not saying it's ripe. I'm trying to get you understanding how important it is not to create an appetite in the man before a marriage. And I just want to say, women, you are not creating the appetite. in men, Jesus said it would be better for you to pluck your eye out than to look lustfully after a woman. Of course, women have agency. We have responsibility for our actions, how we dress,

how we present ourselves 100%. But it is never your fault for being sexually assaulted one. I'm not saying that's what he's saying in this particular sermon, but also if you and a man are going past the point of sexual purity before you are married. That is not you creating an appetite in him. You both are sinning. You both need to repent. But I don't want you to think that you are a creator of something and that that justifies his infidelity in marriage.

Not at all. That's not biblical at all. In the same sermon, Morris describes how he picked women to pray upon when he was younger. supposedly as a teenager, he says, before becoming a Christian. This is soft five. I looked for the girls that would be the most susceptible. And I learned how to spot this in girls. Please hear me.

There's a reason I'm sharing this. The very thing, ladies, that the world tells you to give a man before marriage so that you can keep him is the very thing that will cause you to lose him. I looked for girls that did not have a good relationship with their father. I learned to spot that. I looked for girls that were insecure. Man. Now, he, you know, he says that he's not talking about when he was an adult man abusing children. He says this was before he became a Christian,

but I just think it's interesting considering the allegations that are out now. Now, before we get into the biblical aspect of this, like what the Bible, I think, has to say about all of this and what this, in my opinion, should look like going forward for him, like I just want to give my experience with the Southern Baptist Convention. This is the largest denomination in the United States. I have been a Southern Baptist my whole life. I was baptized in a Southern Baptist church. my grandparents were Southern Baptist. We have been some form of Baptist, I think for 300 years on my dad's side. And I'm a Baptist because I believe in Baptist theology. It's not some kind of conspiracy. It's because I believe in Baptist theology. Now, I'm more reformed than a lot of

my Baptist peers, then I would say the vast, vast, vast majority of the SBC. You guys know I lean more towards Calvinism than the vast majority of the SBC. And I know many of you have your own problems with that. But I believe in, I believe in believers baptism. I believe in salvation by grace through faith alone, which the SBC agrees with. I agree with many things that the SBC holds as doctrines, most things. I had a good experience in the Baptist Church growing up. I think the Lord. I think the Lord. And this is, I'm not saying this at all to negate anyone's experience or allegations. I'm just saying that entities, institutions like this are multifaceted and large. I think the Lord, that my experience in the SBC was a good one, that I never saw, never experienced anything

close to any kind of inappropriate behavior or abuse. And I just credit the Baptist churches that I grew up in with so much of my love for scripture and understanding of God's word. I'm so thankful that week after week I got to see people publicly confess. and publicly confess their faith in Christ and be baptized. I am so grateful for that. And the school that I went to, although it wasn't explicitly Baptist and denomination, I would say probably a large portion, if not most teachers and students at the school that I grew up in were Baptist. That was the prevailing theology in my Bible classes. and I also credit my school that I went to kindergarten through 12th grade for laying the

foundation for me, for theology, for understanding scripture. Something I think about all the time is that my scripture recall is in the NIV. When a verse comes to mind, I'm not the best at remembering off the top of my head the references, but I can say without it sounding like, I don't know, braggadocious in any way that I I do have good scripture recall. Like I remember a lot of scripture. And that's not a credit to me. It's just the upbringing that I so wonderfully had is that when I remember Bible verses, when they come to mind, it's in the NIV. Now, I have not read the NIV consistently for, I don't know, 12 plus years, because when I went to college, I started reading the ESV. And so I've been reading the ESV for my,

entire adult life and yet the version of the verses I remember in the NIV. And that means that the foundation that was laid for me in scripture through that like new adventure Bible that was given to us in church or at school that it has left an indelible indelible mark. So I say all of this as a as a Baptist as a member of the SBC lifelong. is a baptized member of an SBC church of someone who is thankful for the pastors and the teachers and the mentors and the Bible study leaders and the friends that I had, the parents that I had that gave me such a wonderful Christian upbringing and education. So I have no, I have no ulterior motive in talking about these horrible accusations. I am obviously, as hopefully,

Hopefully you all know, not like the members of the media who just want to take down this denomination. I'm not a feminist who is always looking for the stories to make men look bad. You guys know this. But I believe in at least listening to victim stories. Should we believe all women? No, we shouldn't believe all women. Should we believe all accusers? No, we shouldn't believe all users, but should we give them a fair hearing? Yes, I believe we should. I do believe that we should. False accusations are very serious. They're serious to God in the Old Testament from which we draw our principles today for law and for right and wrong. God said that if you bear false witness against your neighbor in court, that you should receive, that you will receive the punishment

that was meant for the accused. That's how much truth matters to God when it comes to justice. God's due process in the Old Testament cared both about the accused and the accuser. But he did care about the accused. And I think often as a response to Me Too, as a response to feminism, we want to say, oh, no, we shouldn't believe any women, basically, that we should question. and I mean, yes, we should question, but that we should nitpick and we should undermine and we should, you know, give them ulterior motives and we should always believe the accused.

And I don't think that's right either. That's not God's justice. What do we always say? God's justice according to his word is truthful. It is impartial. It is direct and it is proportional, as we've been through many times with all of the scripture references to back that up. So it gives me no joy whatsoever to report on this story. But it matters.

And if you are a victim of anyone, especially within the church and you feel pressure, maybe you have even been spiritually manipulated into silence, I do want you to speak the truth and to come into the light. And I pray for God's grace and comfort to surround you. I pray that there would be people for you to save. confide in. And yes, again, just the process of fact checking and all of that and corroboration and verification is so important. But I do hope that you are received in grace and in humility. And accountability is good. It's good. It's refining for God's people. And my hope is that

Robert Morris, through this shame and embarrassment, that he will, be brought to true repentance, not just for what he did 35 years ago, which again, I hope he truly repented of at the time and that there are no more victims, but that he would walk in truth, that he would also ask forgiveness for lying by commission, omission over the years, that he would ask forgiveness for not submitting to law enforcement at the time, which would have been the right thing. The Holy Spirit would have been convicting him to do that if all of these things are true, I hope for restoration of him to the body, not to the place of pastor. It's not everyone's role to be pastor. And just because he has been able to multiply this church

does not mean that is a sign of God's holistic entire approval of him. Okay? There are a lot of people who have really large ministries who are preaching things. I'm not talking about what he's preached. I actually don't know what he's preached, but who are preaching things that are clearly not biblical. And so we can't say the size of someone's church or the size of someone's ministry is a signal of God's approval of that person. I mean, Benny Hen, a lot of these deliverance ministers, which are really exploiters of people's vulnerability. They have large ministries too. That doesn't mean God approves of them. And so fruit is not necessarily just numerical. It looks like self-control. It looks like truth. It looks like joy. It looks like the fruit of the spirit as we read in Galatians. I'm just going to read you several verses. That's how I'm going to end this on the word of God. So Psalm 264, I do not sit with men of falsehood, nor do I can sort with hypocrites. I think that's the call for God's people. Here's the qualifications.

for pastors, for overseers, for elders. These are bishops of the church. These are people who are entrusted with a very special task. Not everyone is entrusted with the gift of stewarding, protecting, shepherding, God's church. First Timothy 3-1-3-7, the saying is trustworthy. If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task. Therefore, an overseer must be above approach, the husband of one wife, sober, minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not a drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. He must manage his own household well with all dignity keeping his children submissive. For if someone does not know how to manage his own household, how will he care for God's church? He must not be a recent

convert. Or he may become puffed up with conceit and fall into the condemnation of the devil. Moreover, he must be well thought of by outsiders so that he may not fall into disgrace into a snare of the devil. Titus 1 7 through 9 for an overseer as God's steward. What a privilege. What a gift to be in that position. What a hefty responsibility must be above reproach. Above reproach. So so righteous, so holy in his living, empowered by the Holy Spirit, that he cannot

be rightly or honestly criticized. He must not be arrogant or quick-tempered or a drunkard or violent or greedy for gain, but hospitable, a lover of good, self-controlled. Gosh, we say that over and over again. Self-controlled. He's able to control his passions, control his lust, control his emotions. Upright, holy, and disciplined. He must hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught so that he may not, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it. Just as an aside, man, how many pastors are missing out on that responsibility? Not only not giving sound instruction, sound doctrine, but failing and refusing to rebuke those who contradict sound doctrine. That's just an aside.

James 3.1, not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, for you know that we who teach will be judged with greater strictness. Wow. Let me read that again. Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, for you know that we who teach will be judged with greater strictness. James 516, therefore confess your sins to one another and pray for one another that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working. What hope, what grace God gives us. He understands that we will send, that we will fall short, and we are to bring those sins into the light so that we can be prayed for by our fellow brothers and sisters, that we may be healed.

2 Corinthians 1310 through 12. Finally, brothers rejoice. Aim for restoration. Comfort one another. Agree with one another. Live in peace. And the God of love and peace will be with you. So yes, restoration, reconciliation, a coming together, forgiveness.

I do think it's important when someone is truly repentant. However, that does not mean, again, that someone needs to be restored to a position of responsibility that I think he has proven allegedly that he simply doesn't have the character for. Now, again, on justice, I think this is an important part of this. Deuteronomy 1619, you shall not pervert justice. You shall not show partiality. It goes on about not accepting bribes. I don't know if that is pertinent. Pertinent here.

But God does hate a bribe. He explains that very clearly throughout Scripture. Exodus 2016, you shall not bear false witness against your neighbor. That's part of the Ten Commandments. That's how important truth is to God. So on both sides of justice, God cares about the accused and the accuser. He cares about fairness. He cares about impartiality.

We're not to believe all women. We're not to believe all men. In truth, are we to judge our neighbor? Psalm 37, 1 through 3 and also 14 through 15. Fret not yourself because of evil doers. Be not envious of wrongdoers. For they will soon fade like the grass and wither like the green herb. This is for those of you who have been abused.

Those of you who are victims, I want you to take comfort in this, but that really this is comfort for all of us who see evil, have experienced evil and injustice. Commit your way to the Lord, trust in him, and he will act. He will bring forth your righteousness as the light and your justice as the noon day. The wicked draw the sword and bend their bows and bring down the poor and needy to slay those whose way is upright. But their sword shall enter their own heart and their bows shall be broken. More comfort for those of you who are victims. Jeremiah 2012, a Lord of hosts who test the righteous, who sees the heart in the mind, let me see your vengeance upon them, for to you I have committed my cause.

Even if it seems like no one sees you, even if it seems like justice is not going to come in this life, rest assured that God will bring justice. Psalm 147, 2 through 4, he heals the broken hearted and binds up their wounds. He determines the number of the stars. He gives to all of them their names, the God who determines the numbers of the stars, who gives every star their name. Wow, we don't even, we don't know all the names of the stars. God has named every single star that we cannot count. That same God created you, loves you, knows you, sees you, hears you. I think of Genesis 16, 13 through 14, or really the whole chapter, when Hagar fled for fear of Sarai and she was pregnant with Abrams, with Abrams son. And after she fled, she feels destitute.

She's despairing. She's in the middle of nowhere. She says, so she called the name of the Lord who spoke to her. You are a God of seeing, for she said, truly, here I have seen him who looks after me. Therefore, the well was called Biera Lehigh Roy. It lies between Kadesh and Bered. She was pregnant with Ishmael means God hears. 1613 when she says, you are a God of seeing. That can also be you are a God who sees me. Genesis 1614,

Pierre Lehigh Roy means the well of the living one who seized me. God saw this woman in her destitution who had been mistreated, promises his faithfulness to her. Remember, you serve a God. who became flesh, dwelt among us, and who paid special attention to women in a way that other people at the time did not, that was seen as indecent and improper against the rules. Remember how he treated the woman at the well. He told her all the intimate details of her life that she thought that she had had hidden

and also shared the gospel with her. Remember how he spoke with tenderness and directness to the woman who was caught in adultery. Remember how he paid attention to the woman who grasped on to his robe to heal herself of perpetual hemorrhaging. He didn't have to pay attention to her. It says that he felt his power go out when she grabbed his robe. He could have kept going. He didn't. He turned around and looked at her.

remember how he treated again with tenderness and truth, the woman of the night who washed his feet with her tears. We serve a tender Jesus who sees you, who pays attention to you. And that is one reason why I say Christians don't need feminism, this feminist, secularist, pro-abortion, gender dysphoric in many ways ideology because we serve a Jesus who brought this message of radical equality to both men and women, that we are all made in the image of God. We're not the same. Our bodies aren't the same. Our roles, our capacities aren't the same. One shouldn't be believed more than the other. One shouldn't be given more credence than the other. We are equal in worth, equal in dignity with different roles, different responsibilities, different strengths, different weaknesses, different positions

and marriage, different positions in the church, but equal and worth. And the radical gospel, which doubled down on the knowledge that we are all made equally in the image of God that says you are also equally dead and sin apart from Christ and can be made alive by grace through faith. And him, it is the gospel that preaches this radical message of compassion and equality, even calling husbands to lay down their lives for their wives that was radical in the culture. at the time. And so the Bible, God's word, is efficient for life and godliness. And it calls us to be better than this that we see in the story. It calls us to a higher standard. It calls us to holiness. It calls us to justice. It calls us to truth. I don't know the veracity of all of these

claims. I think we can kind of piece things together. I pray for truth. and justice to prevail and this in all situations. And I do pray not only for Cindy. Gosh, I pray for her and her family so much. But I also pray for Robert Morris and his family. And I pray that the grace of God would convict him fully, that everything would come to light, that he would truly walk in freedom, and that he would spend the rest of his days walking in that truth and truly faithfully, fully following the Lord in humility and transparency. That's what I hope for him. This is not coming from a place of hate at all or a place of pride. Gosh, we all need that grace to work out our faith and fear and trembling. But yes, I do hope for justice and accountability here

and in so many cases. All right. We had a lot of other things to talk about, but this ended up taking a lot longer. Then I realized we were going to talk also about what happened at the SBC convention last week. We talked about what was going to happen. I think last Wednesday or Tuesday, I don't quite remember. I think it was last Tuesday, but we didn't, we weren't able to then give a recap. Maybe we'll be able to do that later this week. They did vote on the whole female pastor thing and whether a church could still be in friendly cooperation and have a female. pastor, the law amendment that said you're not going to be in friendly cooperation if you have a female pastor did not pass. 61% did vote for it, but it needed two thirds in order to be a constitutional

amendment. There's lots of disagreement on it. Some people just, it's not that they disagreed with it. They just said the Baptist faith and message is already so clear on that. We don't need to add a constitutional amendment. So that was part of why it failed. And we talked about the different arguments there. Also, there was a resolution against the unethical practices that are inherent in the IVF industry, and that did pass. There were lots and lots of different articles and news clips that we could go through in response to everything that happened at the Southern Baptist Convention last week. Here's what we can take comfort in, that God is going to keep his church. He is going to keep true Christians, every true Christian that exists in every

different denomination. God's kingdom does not rise and fall on the SBC. It doesn't rise and fall on the PCA on the Methodist Church. It doesn't rise and fall on any particular denomination, on any particular generation, on any particular nation. God's kingdom stands because he stands and he cannot fail and he will not fail. And one day he is coming back and will rule in perfect peace and perfect justice in complete victory once and for all there will be no more temptation there will be no more sexual sin there will be no more predation there will be no more lies no more deceit no more sickness no more sorrow no more disappointment no more failure no more worry or concern there will be none of that there will only be joy and peace forever more that is assured so when you're tempted to feel

discouraged and disappointed in all of this i think that's normal i do too um your faith does not rest on pastors. It doesn't rest on leaders. It doesn't rest on theologians or teachers or influencers or podcasters. It rests on Jesus, who is the anchor for your soul, the author and the finisher of your faith who will never, ever fail you. All right. We'll be back tomorrow with more.