Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 1027 | Rosaria Butterfield Rebukes Seminaries, Dennis Prager Defends Lust

Starting point is 00:00:00 Rosaria Butterfield is calling out seminaries for giving approval to insidious LGBTQ ideas. Also, we are discussing some commentary from Dennis Prager about the sinfulness or the not-so-simfulness of lust and masturbation. And also, we will talk about a trend on TikTok called The Passenger Princess. We've got all of that on today's episode of Relatable. Welcome to Relatable. Happy Thursday. Hope everyone has had a wonderful week. Okay, yesterday's conversation with Dr. Caneli. I know you guys loved that. You guys have been asking me to have her on when I posted last week that she was coming on the show. Y'all were so pumped. She's amazing. Just so much insight. Make sure you follow her. Listen to that episode or watch it if you haven't already. If you or someone in your life has cancer, you've got to listen to it. But really it was just so good for general health answered a lot of my questions. All right, we've got quite a few things to get to today before I get into it. Just a reminder or share the Eros event is going to be

Starting point is 00:01:19 amazing. It is on September 28th. If you are related bell, relate a gal, so a woman, a Christian conservative woman in particular, you are going to love this event. It is September 28th in Dallas, Texas. Elisa Childers, Abby Halberstadt, Francesca Badistelli, and Rosaria Butterfield. We'll all be there, and of course I will be there to share the arrows.com for more information. All right. Speaking of Rosaria Butterfield, who you will get to see in the flesh if you are going to be at the Share the Arrow's event, our first story has to do with her. If you don't know who Rosaria Butterfield is, you are missing out.

Starting point is 00:02:00 She's been on this podcast now a couple times. We've talked about her testimony before. She's written several books about her testimony, and she is such a lot of, a strong voice for the Bible, for biblical theology. So she used to be a queer theory, critical theory professor at Syracuse University. She was a lesbian feminist activist. And she worked hard to ensure that LGBTQ so-called people, they weren't really called that then, had quote unquote equal rights.

Starting point is 00:02:30 So the redefinition of marriage is something that she had at the top of her agenda when she was this feminist activist. several decades ago. And then through the hospitality of a Christian neighbor, she heard the gospel. She realized the truth of God's word, the truth of who Jesus was. She converted to Christianity. She realized through the process of spirit-empowered sanctification that she could no longer as a Christian be in this relationship with another woman that she had been in for years and years at that point, practically a spouse. She walked away from that relationship. She walked away from that relationship. She walked away from her former way of life. As I said, now she is a Christian author,

Starting point is 00:03:13 apologist. I think just an incredible defender of the faith, especially when it comes to this cultural moment, the attempt to normalize and glorify sexual depravity. She is such a bold voice against that in a variety of ways. She also is a wife and a mother to four. And she's just incredible. She offers so much clarity.

Starting point is 00:03:37 and courage in this age of chaos, cowardness, and confusion. And now she is rebuking, she is rebuking a seminary, the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. In fact, there's a lot of good people there, a ton of people that we've had on our show that work there. And I think in general, it is a great institution. But Rosaria Butterfield is calling them out for something in particular. And that is for approving Nate Collins'

Starting point is 00:04:07 dissertation. So if you have no idea what I'm talking about, let me back up a little bit and give you some context to explain why this matters. So Rosaria Butterfield recently criticized evangelical institutions for their acceptance of LGBTQ ideology. And more specifically, she actually criticized Southern Baptist Theological Seminary for credentializing heresy and sin. That is her terminology by approving the dissertation of Nate Collins. all the way back in 2017. Collins's dissertation became the book, all but invisible, exploring identity questions

Starting point is 00:04:45 at the intersection of faith, gender, and sexuality. Collins would also go on to found Revoiced. This is an organization that has embraced the view that Christians can live out a so-called LGBTQ identity if they remain celibate. This is often referred to as side B Christianity. We will link the recent episode that we did where we explained side B Christianity versus side A versus side X versus side Y, exactly what all of that means.

Starting point is 00:05:16 And so he is a part of side B Christianity, which really says that you can, you know, remain celibate, but it's fine to call yourself a so-called gay Christian or a trans Christian. And this is not something that I subscribe to, but this is an increasingly popular position. It's something that also Rosaria Butterfield has spoke to. out against. So has Christopher Yuan, Beckett Cook, all of these people we've had on our podcast before. In an episode of the American Reformer podcast that aired in February of this year, Rosaria joined Timon Klein and Josh Abbottoy to describe how critical theory and queer theory have made their way into the church. And she talks about this particular instance of

Starting point is 00:06:01 Nate Collins' dissertation being approved at SBTS. So here's that. I remember reading it and saying, this is one of the most God-forsaken things I've read as, you know, as a Christian ever. What are you all thinking? He mishandles both the Bible and critical theory and queer theory all at the same time, which is really kind of, it's an amazing achievement. Bad ideas don't run a culture amok until the church starts applauding them. And we've seen a good bit of that. Maybe this was just the first time it came to my desk. Okay.

Starting point is 00:06:45 So the title of Nate Collins' dissertation was Virgin as secondary gender identity in 1st Corinthians 7 and its Jewish and Greco-Roman background. So Rosaria argues that by approving this dissertation, they kind of approved this idea. I mean, a proof of a dissertation doesn't necessarily mean you agree with every part of the dissertation, but she argues that this is Godforsaken, that he mishandles the Bible, and he actually mishandles critical and queer theory. He actually misunderstands and misapplies those things too. And she, of course, says tongue and cheek that that's an amazing achievement. And I really found this profound when she said that bad ideas don't run a culture amok until the church starts applauding them. And so I'd be interested to see what the

Starting point is 00:07:43 response would be of those who did approve this dissertation version as a secondary gender identity in First Christmas. Seven, that is insane. It's insane. So let me back up a little bit about who Nate Collins is and his relationship with SBTS. So he did an interview with Preston Sprinkle in 2015, we've talked about Preston Sprinkle before. I think Preston Sprinkle has a lot of good things to say, but we disagree on things like so-called pronoun politeness. He would also say that it is valid to identify as a gay Christian. I think, oh my goodness, that is a paradoxical abomination

Starting point is 00:08:21 or maybe an abominable paradox because you are identifying as that which God calls sin and trying to wet it with being a new creation. It's like saying, I'm an old new creation. That is not in accordance with Scripture. That is not in accordance with the gospel. You are still holding on to that such were some of you part of your life. You are still holding on to the old self by identifying as two things that really don't go together. So I really disagree with him on that, even though ultimately Preston will say that biblical marriage is between one man and one woman.

Starting point is 00:09:02 how we handle these issues is very different in a lot of ways. So as I said, Nate Collins and Preston, they had a conversation together in 2015. And Collins describes how he is same sex attracted and how he kind of weds these two identities of being same sex attracted and a Christian together, which kind of laid the foundation for everything we're talking about, the dissertation, revoiced, and all that. So Collins also says that he is a same-sex attracted man in a mixed orientation marriage. So that's one spouse is straight. He uses that language while the other opposite-sex spouse is attracted to the same sex.

Starting point is 00:10:00 So he has a wife, Sarah, that he is married to, but he is still attracted to men. He says, by the time we were married, I hadn't become. straight because I still experience same-sex attractions at the same time. A one-woman orientation had been developing within me during my relationship with Sarah. So marrying her felt like the most natural thing to do. And also my heart had in fact grown to long for. He also says he's not bisexual. And so this is how he kind of describes his relationship there. And then a little more about this thesis that Rosaria Butterfield has recently called out the Virgin of Secondary Gender Identity in 1 Corinthians 7. There are some quotes from this. He says this dissertation will argue

Starting point is 00:10:52 the thesis that the Greek word for virgin functions as a label that indexes the secondary gender identity in polls discussion of virgins in 1st Corinthians 7. He says he will distinguish between primary gender identity and secondary gender identity. He says primary gender identity is binary and reflects the original divine intent to create male persons and female person. Secondary gender identity, on the other hand, is non-binary. And as the result of the pluriform effects of the enculturation of gender within human society, which of course is completely theologically and biologically untrue, and yet that is a part of his thesis. He says that his thesis will also illustrate. the significance of the sex gender distinction within Christian theology and ways that are

Starting point is 00:11:39 last than apparent to secular forms of gender theory. He talks about the differences in gender identities throughout Scripture. His conclusion is, we began with a survey of feminist and contemporary gender theory in order to discern the kinds of answers. Theorists have provided to the question, what is gender identity? We observed that responses to this question followed several discernible patterns, each of them might inform Christian doctrine of gender. Also in 2017, Nate published much of the material in a book titled All But Invisible, Exploring Identity Questions at the intersection of Faith, Gender, and Sexuality. Collins explores the cultural background of what he describes as the intersection between a gay identity and a Christian identity.

Starting point is 00:12:28 Collins is speaking from his own experience, of course, in his so-called mixed orientation, marriage. And so while Collins might at the end of the day agree that marriage biblically should be between one man and one woman, I think we have some very serious fundamental theological disagreements on what identity is. And again, what it means to be a new creation, maybe. there is some common ground there in how we understand pushing our feelings to the side and obeying the design that God has created for his people. But it sounds to me like there is a lot of secularism in how he is viewing God's commands and how he is viewing scriptures descriptions of what gender of what sex actually are. Rosari's opinion on Colin.

Starting point is 00:13:28 is writing and bringing queer theory into Christian circles. She says she compares, for example, critical race theory to a broken lag while trying to run a marathon. It won't kill you. But you should get to a hospital to treat it right away. The same would be true of queer theory. And of course, she's an expert on queer theory. She then compares critical queer theory to a massive heart attack. This is why the church needs to wake up and drive it out of the evangelical institution. So let me kind of correct myself there. She says critical race theory being what it is. And we've talked about that many times on this podcast, basically the belief that there is the black and brown oppressed and the white oppressor. And everything is viewed through that lens. She says that that is going to

Starting point is 00:14:18 harm your faith. That is going to hurt your theology. And you need to get that fixed right away, but it's not going to quickly destroy it. She says the critical queer theory is a massive heart attack and it will absolutely bring the faith, bring your doctrines to ruin. Has to be driven out of evangelical institutions. I don't know if we were talking right now, if she would agree with this.

Starting point is 00:14:45 I actually think critical race theory is just as dangerous as critical queer theory. I really do. and I actually think in some ways it's even more dangerous because I think a lot of Christians see it as more innocuous. And there is some kind of guilt attached to it for the white evangelical. And so they start redefining justice in terms of critical race theory much more quickly than they will redefine marriage or redefine sexuality in terms of critical queer theory. So I think that they are equally dangerous just in different ways. because both of them beg us to ask the question, did God really say?

Starting point is 00:15:29 What is Revoiced? This is Nate Collins' organization. Maybe you've heard it before. The website says that it exists to support and encourage Christians who are sexual minorities so they can flourish in historic Christian traditions. Revoiced was founded in 2018, a group of Christians gathered. Most of them were gay slash same-sex attracted to create events for supporting and encouraging one another. In theory, this may not sound necessarily bad because people who struggle with same-sex attraction recognize that it is a disorder desire and that same-sex relationships, same-sex behavior, that that is a sin, that that is something that should be repented of, that that's

Starting point is 00:16:16 something that should be resisted and we should embrace God's design. Those people should have community. they should be able to go to church. They should be able to walk the road of sanctification empowered by the Holy Spirit alongside other Christians that struggle in a variety of ways. The problem with re-voice is that it really blurs the lines between affirmation and love, I would say, like true, godly, truth-filled love, where you don't rejoice in wrongdoing, but just rejoice in the truth. and affirmation of sin, of course, which we believe is cruelty.

Starting point is 00:16:56 I think that Revois really blurs the lines between those two things. For example, they say, we believe that theological dialogue about the nature of sexual orientation is necessary and that continued conversation regarding the discipleship and spiritual care of gay, lesbian, bisexual, and other same-sex attracted Christians. So, see, they use the multiple labels. They don't just say same-sex attracted. They say gay, lesbian, bisexual, as if that can be an active part of your identity as a Christian. is especially important.

Starting point is 00:17:24 While discussions about terminology can be fruitful, we believe they can also cause unnecessary division within the family of God in needless pain for many non-straight Christians. Whether individuals choose gay or same-sex attracted or to describe their orientation, I don't even think orientation is the right language for the Christian. I just don't because God orientes our hearts when we become Christians towards the things that he loves. And orientation, I think, sounds like something that is fixed, something that is innate and permanent that cannot be removed or changed at all. And while we don't know if someone who has same sex attracted, that their attractions will necessarily change in the direction of the opposite sex, we do know that God can do that, that of course he can.

Starting point is 00:18:13 It may always be a struggle for them, a true repentance centered struggle. for them, or maybe it won't be. But the fact of the matter is, is that God can change that. And saying orientation, again, sounds so stagnant and fixed. I don't think that's right theologically. They say orientation experience is a matter of wisdom and liberty. I'm not sure about that. And should not divide believers who otherwise share a commitment to historic Christian teaching about marriage and sexuality. Like if you look at the revoiced staff bios, there is a woman claiming bisexual identity. She has she her pronouns in her profile.

Starting point is 00:18:53 And then a same sex attracted male who shares his apartment with his quote unquote chosen brother and refers to it as a committed friendship. I mean, would you ever recommend that a man and a woman who are not married and are committed to sexual purity that they share an apartment together? Of course not. And that's what also I find within these side B and even like side A Christian circles is that there doesn't seem to be the same kind of commitment to general sexual purity as there is among like side acts or side Y Christians. Again, go listen to that episode to get an explanation of all of those things. But those of us who consider ourselves, you know, conservative Christians, I would never encourage a young woman to live with a man. if she is trying to follow God's design for purity. And so why would I encourage someone who is same-sex attracted, who is trying to remain

Starting point is 00:19:52 celibate and who is truly struggling against that in an effort to work out his salvation with fear and trembling? I would say never put yourself in the position of living with a man where you are just going to be placed into temptation. I would say that in itself is a sin. They have also raised money, revoices raised money during Jesus. June, what they call Pride Month, to support LGBTQ plus slash SSA communities. More specifically, the money goes towards reach, a leadership development cohort that quote unquote equips LGBTQ plus

Starting point is 00:20:26 slash SSA Christ followers to become kingdom leader. So this is what I'm talking about when I'm talking about blurring the lines. When it comes to affirmation, which I think is sinful, affirmation of sin versus truth-filled love, acknowledging and submitting to God's design for sexuality and marriage and resisting temptation towards disorder. That's what Revoiced does. It blurs those lines to where a lot of Christians are confused. Remember, God is not the God of Confucian. He is the God of peace. This seems to be a group that thinks that they are nicer than God, that they are kinder than God. They're more merciful than God that they can kind of let God off the hook for those inconvenient passages like Genesis 1 or First Corinthians 6 or Romans 1. We need to kind of caveat and nuance that and make it more palatable for a gay world.

Starting point is 00:21:25 And I don't think that's going to cut it. I just don't. I think that causes actually a lot more chaos. And so Rosaria Butterfield's point has proven true that I think his dissertation, maybe that's not what caused the establishment. a re-voice. Maybe that didn't lay the soul foundation for his book and his ideas, which really have taken root in a lot of evangelicalism, but it probably played a role when it never should have been accepted in the first place because it was so ridiculous on its face. And so, like, I see Rosaria Butterfield as such a prophetic voice. And I don't even mean that in, like,

Starting point is 00:22:03 the charismatic sense. I just mean that she is a forthright, forth-telling voice about the issues within Christianity, the issues within the world. And I see her rebukes, her calling out her criticism as acts of courageous love. I know that these days you hear any kind of negativity or criticism. People take it as a personal attack. I don't see it as that at all. I see it as her caring so much about the body of Christ. I see it. She just has such intense compassion and experience because of the life that she lived. She knows very well what it looks like to be deceived.

Starting point is 00:22:45 Even so recently is repenting of this so-called pronoun politeness that she once engaged in for the sake of evangelism. She now realizes that that's telling a lie that you are trying to be the aroma of Christ while affirming the stench of death. And we can't do that. And so I just, I always love when she speaks the truth. She's such an encouragement to me. And that's why you got to come hear her and share the arrows event, the September share the arrows.com. All right.

Starting point is 00:23:15 So that's one thing that's going on in the Christian world today. There is never a dull moment within evangelicalism. And even in like all different subsets of Christianity, there is just so much going on. So many fault lines being being drawn. And all of us are just trying to navigate it with as much. much truth and grace as we possibly can. You guys are helping me, helping me do that. So let us continue to spur one another on toward loving good works. And actually, just to put a fine point on the last segment, let me just, I'm going to read you a quote from Rosaria. She says this after reading

Starting point is 00:24:04 Psalm 113. She said, I looked into its mirror, the mirror of the word of God. And I saw how short I had fallen from God's will. God used the offense of God's word for the good of my soul. God used the offense of God's word for the good of my soul. I didn't stop cold turkey feeling like a lesbian, she says. Not at all, but I did register lesbian desires as sinful acts in need of repentance, not morally neutral attributes of my identity or person. No one told me to pray the gay away. because every sermon told me to drive a fresh nail into every sin every day. No one needed to. Because every sermon told me to drive a fresh nail into every sin every day, no one needed to. Thought that was so good. And actually, it's a good transition into our next topic about morality and what Jesus says about sexual morality.

Starting point is 00:25:11 not just what we do, but also what we think and what we look at. And this centers on a video of Dennis Prager that has been going around on X recently, although it is from 2023. And he is with Charlie Kirk at Arizona State University for Turning Point USA's Health, Health, Wealth, and Happiness, a 2.0 event last year. and he makes some comments about masturbation, about lust, about what Jesus actually has to say about lust. And let me say first that I really respect Dennis Prager.

Starting point is 00:25:54 I'm so thankful for the work that he has done, how Prager You has educated millions and millions of people. And so I really, really disagree with him on this. And I think that this argument is harmful in a lot of ways. But I agree with Dennis Prager on the vast majority of things. And of course, I am just so thankful for his influence and his courage over the years. But I just wanted to respond to this because I could see how this thinking is convincing for a lot of people. So you might remember last year, April 2023, Prager was a part of a discussion panel hosted by Jordan Peterson, in which he said that

Starting point is 00:26:36 lost in pornography are not a big deal to him as a Jew, he says, because Judaism is only concerned with action or behavior of adultery, not with the heart as Christians believe. And of course, that is simply not true. Even if you look at the Ten Commandments, not even looking at it from a Christian perspective, just from a Jewish perspective. If you look at the Ten Commandments, what is one of the Ten Commandments? I mean, actually, a lot of the commandments really have to do with the heart and the mind in your belief, not only what you do, but I think specifically of thou shalt not covet. You shouldn't covet your neighbor's wife or your neighbor's ox or your neighbor's house. You shouldn't even want something that is not yours. It wasn't just thou shalt not steal that was already covered in the

Starting point is 00:27:24 Ten Commandments. It's like you shouldn't steal, but you also shouldn't even want something that is not yours. So I don't think that you can look at God's law giving to Israel and deduce that God only cares about what we do externally. So again, not even just looking at it from my Christian New Testament perspective, that's not accurate. But he also says that certain external actions are not sin. And this was, again, in this conversation last year in 2023. So I'll let you listen to this for yourself. Here is SOT 1. If we, if masturbation is easy. evil, then I think we have raped the term evil of its moral power. Masturbation may be a sin, and even that is debatable, because there's nothing, not a hint

Starting point is 00:28:19 of masturbation being a sin in the Bible. I know the Hebrew Bible, I know the Torah, almost by heart in Hebrew. There is not a hint of masturbation being a sin in the Old Testament or in the New Testament. Okay, so this is in response to a question that asked Dennis, you outraged many Christians when you said on a podcast a few months ago that you don't believe, and this is something that Dennis Prager said, that you don't believe masturbating to animated pictures of child pornography is wrong or you don't find it evil. This is fundamentally at odds with Christian teachings about lust, extramarital sex and sins of the heart. Christ even says in Matthew 529 that these sins are enough to lead souls to hell. How can you say Judeo-Christian values are universal to

Starting point is 00:29:05 both faiths when something as essential as good and evil are different. And so I think that's a really good question. He did say that at the time, and I'm pretty sure that we responded to it on the show. And so basically what he says is that not all sins are evil, not in any of our religions to the best of my knowledge. He says in Catholicism, for example, it is a sin if you are healthy enough to go to Mass and you never go. But I don't know any Catholics that would say, evil or it is evil if you don't attend mass. This seems to me kind of some kind of semantic debate. He says all evil is sin, but not every sin is evil.

Starting point is 00:29:48 I guess it depends on how you are defining evil. He says, if you want to call masturbation, evil, fine. I use the term evil for rape, torture, murder, and the like. If masturbation is evil, he says, then we have. have raped the term evil of its moral power. You heard me, you heard him say that in the clip. And then he goes on to specifically answer this part about AI child sex abuse material. He says, let me just say my thinking has changed on the issue of artificial intelligence and child porn. I am now 100% opposed to it. By the way, if all pornography were eradicated, we would have a

Starting point is 00:30:29 much better society. I just want to make that clear that is my position, which is really good to hear. I'm so glad to hear that because really what started this conversation was even before the, what he said about artificially, you know, artificial and child sex abuse material was when he said publicly that he didn't think that pornography was necessarily wrong, that it's not necessarily a bad thing to look at porn. So it seems like he has changed his position on that. And then he goes on to talk more about masturbation. He says, if God thinks that that is a sin, you have a different God than I do. He says, my God has common sense, loves human beings, and understands that circumstances

Starting point is 00:31:17 determine a lot of things. Is it wrong to lie? Is it a sin to lie? Yes. Where the Germans are the polls who hit a Jew and lied to Nazis about hiding a Jew. Did they commit a sin? And then he speaks to what I think a lot of our response would be, okay, but lust is always a sin.

Starting point is 00:31:34 That's not really a circumstantial thing. Jesus said it would be better to pluck out your eye than to look lustfully after a woman. He then argued that we are alienating people from God if we interpret Matthew 529 as Jesus prohibiting lust. Here's Sot 2. This is why religion turns people off. When you go around telling people, masturbation is a sin and your committing evil, believe me, you are not bringing people to God, you are alienating people from God. In the Christian belief, private thought, private belief, it's not necessarily as sinful, but there's

Starting point is 00:32:14 gradations of sin as well. And it's hotly debated, but I think it's clear Christ said to lust after a woman. Well, he didn't, actually, and there's no reason you would know this. No, no, no, in fact, almost no Christian knows this. I did research, because I didn't believe Jesus said that. because Jesus was a Jew. It's not normative in Judaism that thinking something is equivalent to doing something. And he was very normative in virtually all of his teachings. So Charlie clearly disagrees with Dennis Prager there and is trying to speak up and push back against him. And I, of course, agree with Charlie on this because it is very obvious that Jesus is speaking against less.

Starting point is 00:33:02 Of course, if you see this in context, what Jesus is doing to all of the laws is saying, look, all of these laws were always about the heart. And so I think that Jesus would have the same message, Dennis Prager, as he did to his audience then as he was speaking even to the Pharisees when he was like, no, it's not enough that you have this external obedience. This law was always supposed to go down to heartfelt obedience, to heart-driven obedience. So it's not enough not to steal. You also shouldn't covet. It's not enough not to just commit adultery. You also shouldn't lust. And so that is the point of this passage in Matthew 5 that real faith is not just about externally what you do.

Starting point is 00:33:51 It was always supposed to be at the heart level, the soul level, the motivation level. And so he goes on to say that it's actually been mistranslated from the Greek. He said, if you covet another woman, it is as if you committed adultery with your heart. That's what he's arguing Jesus actually meant. And he says, I happen to agree with that. Covening is banned in the Ten Commandments. I know the Ten Commandments by heart in Hebrew. There's a difference between covet and lust. Well, I'm not so sure that there is. If you are wanting another man's wife, if you are wanting a woman that is not your own, that is a form of lust, you are desiring something that is not yours.

Starting point is 00:34:30 He says there's no prohibition of lust in the Old Testament. There's a prohibition on coveting. So that must have been what Jesus meant. Again, I think that this probably comes down to semantics. And of course, words are important. Interpretation is important. But to say that Jesus did not prohibit lust, that would not be in keeping with our understanding

Starting point is 00:34:56 of scripture as a whole and certainly not Jesus' message as a whole, not the New Testament as a whole. And our understanding about sin and human nature and how God is killing the old self and giving us a new self. Of course, Jesus is talking about the desires of our heart. All right. So here is Sot 3 of Dennis Prager. I just want to say, I have brought more Americans to Christianity than any living Christian.

Starting point is 00:35:34 Okay. I know that for a fact. I brought more Jews to Judaism than any living Jew. So I know how to make the case for God and Bible and religion really effectively. And I'm telling you, when we come out with stuff that people just intuitively understand, that doesn't make moral sense. We are not doing God or our Bible any service. Okay.

Starting point is 00:36:02 I'm not really sure how you quantify that. I praise God if there have been people who have been brought to Christianity through Dennis Prager. He does talk about the Bible. And as we know, the word of God does not return void. So I think it's entirely possible that someone would have started reading the Bible because of Dennis Prager talking about the Bible and then they would have realized the truth of God's word and the truth of Christianity. And I absolutely praise God for that. As I said, Dennis Prigger has done absolutely a lot of good work. I'm not really sure how you quantify that he has brought more people to Christianity than any living Christian. In fact, I can probably say,

Starting point is 00:36:33 that that is absolutely not true because Dennis Prager does good work when he is talking about some really important issues and maybe even when he is talking about scripture too. But he does not believe in the gospel. And so he has not shared the gospel. And I promise you that there are Christians who have shared the gospel, maybe people we don't even know whose names we don't even know who God has used to bring more people to Christ. Because his gospel is the good news that people are, than latching on to. And as I've said many times, we don't have to apologize for God. We don't have to take him off the hook. We don't have to pretend like his word is too hard to do or too hard to understand because the Holy Spirit gives us understanding. It gives us the ability to obey. Again, when God

Starting point is 00:37:20 makes us new, a new creation, he also empowers us to obey him. And it's always going to be a struggle against the flesh. But struggling against lust is that struggle against the flesh. I think actually intuitively, we understand that masturbation and that lusting after someone else is not right. I actually think people really intuitively understand that because you take a secular couple and the woman is sitting there at dinner across from her, from her boyfriend or for her husband, that guy leans over and checks out the back of the waitress. Do you think that secular woman thinks that's awesome? That is great.

Starting point is 00:38:00 at least he's not cheating on me. It's totally fine. I guarantee you that at least 90% of women, if not more, no matter their background would say, are you freaking kidding me? Are you kidding? And then that would start a fight because there is something innate in us that wants faithfulness, that wants loyalty, that wants exclusivity, wants monogamy. And not just indeed, but also in thought, most women or men, if they found out that

Starting point is 00:38:29 they're significant other. was thinking about other people, that would be a big problem because they would say, okay, you're dissatisfied with me. You are wanting something that I am not giving you. And that would cause a lot of heartache and despair. So I think he's wrong when he says that intuitively, people understand that masturbation and lust are not really evil. They're not really sins. And we don't need to worry about that. We mostly just need to focus on, you know, externalities. I don't think so. I think that's a secular way of thinking. I honestly think that is a morally delusional way of thinking. And it certainly is an anti-gospel, anti-Jesus way of thinking

Starting point is 00:39:09 that he takes over the whole self, the whole heart, that there is not a centimeter of the self that Christ does not say mine to. When he becomes king, when he becomes ruler, he takes over. He gets rid of the old man bit by bit throughout our lives. It is a painful process. process, that process of refining, that process of sanctification, that process of holiness. It is letting go of our selfishness. It's letting go of our lust. It's letting go of our desires and getting something better, more fulfilling, more satisfying. And I think that that's kind of what ties the first two segments of this podcast together, that understanding that the gospel really is better than the things we want in this life, no matter how much.

Starting point is 00:40:00 we want them. All right. That's all we got for the serious aspects of this podcast. Now we have to talk about one final thing to end our week. And I will bring producer Bree in on this. And that has to do, have you heard this term before? That has to do with passenger princesses, a passenger princess. Have you heard of this term? So there was this tweet that went viral. On or post that went viral on X that says this lady just picked her husband up from the airport, kissed him, and immediately went to the passenger seat LMAO. And this post got like tens of thousands of likes. I don't even know how many likes it has now.

Starting point is 00:40:48 And then I quote tweeted this and I didn't think it would get as much traction as it did my response to it. But I said, does every wife not do this? Unless my husband is recovering from major surgery, I ain't driving. And that is the truth. I think my husband might actually say no, even if I'm recovering from major surgery, you're not driving. And some people who desperately need to go touch their hand on grass were very upset with my response

Starting point is 00:41:22 for some reason. Like some of the quote tweets on my tweet and some of the, the responses, the replies to both my tweet and the original tweet, were so just unabashedly misogynistic and weird that I feel like I have to explain myself, although I'm sure a lot of you understand the dynamic at play here in why we are in fact passenger princesses when our husbands are around. Okay, so let me just play you this TikTok. This will give you a visual of what a passenger princess is. And even I can't totally relate to this exact setup. This is the general situation that we're talking about.

Starting point is 00:42:11 Stop five. Okay, so a passenger princess, is a passenger princess is a woman who gets in the front seat and a woman who gets in the front seat and gets comfortable and gets comfortable. basically you've got your just your miniature little oasis there you're just like a little I don't know cube of luxury you have everything exactly how you want it you've got your drink receptacles at least two probably three for me it's usually coffee water and like some kind of juice or protein shake she's got her bag she's got her blanket she's got her slippers she's got her music and then your

Starting point is 00:43:18 husband is the one who has to navigate and has to drive. And your job when you get in the car is to think about absolutely nothing. You just completely check out. You cannot even be trusted to tell him when the next turn is because that is not your job when you are a passenger princess. You just get in and you let him drive. Now, the only difference between this TikTok situation and then my situation with my husband, because I guess I am a passenger princess, I had never heard this term before I tweeted what I did is that I probably wouldn't bring a blanket. I would definitely not turn the heat up like she did. And I would not put my feet up on the dash. And my husband would not want me to put my feet up on the dash because that is dangerous. But other and also if we have kids in the car, that whole thing about

Starting point is 00:44:06 her like taking the phone and turning it to the music that she wanted, that would never happen. Because everyone knows when you have kids in the car, kids are in charge of what is being listened to. and you do that so then you can actually have a conversation with your spouse in the front row. So that would be the only distinction there, but it's a great dynamic. It's a great dynamic. And my husband wants it to be that way. He wants me to be able to get in the car and to not have to think about anything and for him to drive. He wants to drive.

Starting point is 00:44:41 It's not like I insist on being a passenger princess. this is the dynamic my husband prefers. I do not drive on road trips. I completely would if he asked me to, but I never do. It doesn't matter if we are driving 15 hours. I do not drive one hour. Again, I would, but he does not want me to. So I have a passenger princess for life.

Starting point is 00:45:01 Now, let me just read you. I'll just read you one response. There were a lot of deranged responses. But this person responded, I'm legit starting to think there's something wrong with women. why are so many averse to driving? It actually and legitimately might help y'all get over your neuroses. I'm not a neurotic person, by the way.

Starting point is 00:45:24 Self-determinate forward momentum really does improve negative emotion. Okay, self-determinate forward momentum. Like walking? Like just moving forward. Like you know that I still do that, right? Like, I'm not a wheelchair princess. I don't make him push me around everywhere. And you know that we drive, like we do drive.

Starting point is 00:45:47 I drive myself. I drive my kids all the time. It's not like my husband is my chauffeur. It's just that when my husband is with me, he is going to be in the driver's seat. And that's normal. And some people also like, oh my gosh, the gender dynamics among fundamentalists, among Americans. They're so crazy.

Starting point is 00:46:09 It's so ugly. No one said that you have to do that, Ms. Mary Sue. If you want to drive and you want your husband to be a passenger prince and that is the dynamic that she'll have, then I love that for you, Mary Sue. I truly do. Now, Bree, we were talking about this and you were saying, oh, you don't know if you have anything to say, but, okay, I know that you drive yourself. But do you enjoy driving? Would you prefer to be a passenger princess? Yeah, of course.

Starting point is 00:46:42 I actually consider myself a really good driver. Yeah. But if I had the opportunity to be a passenger princess, yeah, absolutely. To turn my mind off, yes. Yeah. I'm an aspiring passenger princess. Yes, an aspiring passenger princess,

Starting point is 00:46:58 a potential passenger princess. So you don't think it is, I don't know, speaking to the laziness or the uselessness of women, like some people were saying on X. Yeah, no, I don't. I don't think that. No, I think it's also just kind of like a cute trend. And I think people need to get over that.

Starting point is 00:47:19 Yeah, they really do. You know what? Going into a holiday week and, you know, a travel week and a travel season, I just want to say cheers to all of you fellow passenger princesses out there. We will be passenger princessing it up over the next few weeks. right, that's all we've got for this week. We will be back here on Monday.

Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 1027 | Rosaria Butterfield Rebukes Seminaries, Dennis Prager Defends Lust

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