Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 1041 | Granger Smith on Suicide, Self-Love & IVF | Guest: Granger Smith

Episode Date: July 29, 2024

Today we’re joined by Granger Smith, a former country music singer turned minister and author of the new book "Like a River." In this episode, Granger shares his profound journey, explaining why he left the music industry after over 25 years to pursue ministry. Following the tragic loss of his son River in a drowning accident in 2019, Granger's life was forever changed. This heartbreaking event brought him closer to Jesus and ultimately became the catalyst for his path into Christian ministry. Granger details how he dipped into “self-help” therapy but realized the practices were not rooted in truth but were actually dangerous and addictive. Additionally, he explains why his family chose IVF to have his son Maverick, the internal struggles with feelings of sinfulness, and why he believes IVF should not be recommended. Get your tickets for Share the Arrows: https://www.sharethearrows.com/ Pre-order Allie's new book: https://a.co/d/4COtBxy --- Timecodes: (02:22) Leaving country music (11:25) Losing River (15:38) Self-love vs. self-hate (20:30) Self-help (24:59) How the death of his son affected his marriage (30:45) Working through struggles of seeking validation (34:40) Sanctification and spending time with God (43:52) IVF --- Today's Sponsors: Jase Medical — get up to a year’s worth of many of your prescription medications delivered in advance. Go to JaseMedical.com today and use promo code “ALLIE". Good Ranchers — Go to GoodRanchers.com and use code ALLIE at checkout to claim $25 off your first box, free express shipping, and your FREE gold medal add-on for the next four years. A’del — try A'del's hand-crafted, artisan, small-batch cosmetics and use promo code ALLIE 25% off your first time purchase at AdelNaturalCosmetics.com Birch Gold — protect your future with gold. Text 'ALLIE' to 989898 for a free, zero obligation info kit on diversifying and protecting your savings with gold. --- Relevant Episodes: Ep 1018 | Former IVF Doctor Blows the Whistle | Guest: Dr. Lauren Rubal https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/ep-1018-former-ivf-doctor-blows-the-whistle-guest-dr/id1359249098?i=1000658815852 Ep 1007 | Republicans Push Taxpayer-Funded IVF | Guest: Andrew T. Walker https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/ep-1007-republicans-push-taxpayer-funded-ivf-guest/id1359249098?i=1000656429233 Ep 980 | The Secret, Ethical Alternative to IVF | Guest: Catie VanDamme https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/ep-980-the-secret-ethical-alternative-to-ivf-guest/id1359249098?i=1000651465868 Ep 788 | The 'Sextortion' Scheme that Killed His Son | Guest: Brian Montgomery https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/ep-788-the-sextortion-scheme-that-killed-his-son/id1359249098?i=1000608843850 --- Buy Allie's book, You're Not Enough (& That's Okay): Escaping the Toxic Culture of Self-Love: https://alliebethstuckey.com/book Relatable merchandise – use promo code 'ALLIE10' for a discount: https://shop.blazemedia.com/collections/allie-stuckey

Granger Smith is a former country artist. He left the industry a few years ago after God called him elsewhere, and God is using him and his family in absolutely incredible ways to share the testimony of redemption of his family after tragedy struck a few years ago. We talk not just about his own spiritual journey, but about marriage, about parenting. After losing a child, we also talk about going through IVF and what he thinks. about that reproductive technology today. Oh my goodness. This was an absolutely amazing and such an edifying conversation that you guys are going to love so much. This episode is brought to by our friends at Good Ranchers. Go to Good Ranchers.com. Use code Alley at checkout. That's good ranchers.com code Alley. Grandier, thanks so much for taking the time to join us. I'm sure

most watching this know exactly who you are. But for those who might not, can you tell us who you are and what you do? Yes, I guess first, I'm a former country music singer, and I've been saying that for 10 months now as we record this. And I was a country singer for most of my life, about 25 years touring and putting out albums. Can I just pause and say, you do not look like you could have been doing something for 25 years? I saw that your first album came out in 1999, and I was like, a child star? I can't. I mean, you just don't look like you had already a 25-year career.

That's incredible. Anyway. Well, thank you. And it has been, it has taken up. It's consumed most of my life. And so this is a new season I'm in. It's been an amazing season, a sweet season for the family and I. A season of equipping, really, in ministry.

I think that's probably the best way to look at it. I've just been, I'm trying to be. into as much as I can in a lot of different ways. And tell me a little more about that decision to leave country music. Like you said, it had dominated your life for a long time. That's a huge change. Yeah, for sure. Well, I think the catalyst, no doubt, was June 4th, 2019.

We lost our little boy, wherever he was three. And after that, my perspective was really rocked. I was, there's never been a time in my life. didn't consider myself a Christian. And so there's a problem with that inherently to think that you're born a Christian. No one is born a Christian. Jesus says you must be born again. And so I'd never really thought about that.

And the reason I knew my upbringing, going to church, being able to articulate the gospel, being able to defend at some level of the faith was always a part of my life, camps, youth camps, FCAs, things like that. But when this kind of tragedy struck, losing our boy, I realized, especially in hindsight,

looking back, there were no fruits of a of a salvific hope in Jesus because I felt like I lost everything. I felt like I had no hope, no rest, no peace. I found that,

especially now looking back that I was so into self-help and fixing myself that really that's what I relied on. So I say all that because that was the beginning of the journey to where I am now, out of country music. And that wasn't the reason I got out, but it was, it started turning to gears on where was I in my faith? Did I really trust in Jesus? and that only got worse. In fact, about six months after losing RIV, I was in a complete place of rock bottom where I just didn't want to live anymore.

And it was really through that dark night that I began a new search, a search of who is Jesus really? Had I for so many years underestimated what he said. And that sounds pretty simple. that maybe when Jesus said things and when his apostles said things and when the prophets before him said things, maybe they really meant at face value. And I don't really think that it occurred to me that it had been that simple. Right. That when he says things like, if anyone would come after

me, let him deny himself, take up his cross, and follow me. Did he mean anything less by that statement? And so I really started wrestling with those things. And that really came to a head three months after just an intense journey of listening to preachers and trying to find out where I stood with all of this. And it was finally listening to a sermon on March 1st after that year. And the preacher was preaching out of John 14. And there was something about that. And I've listened to so many conversion stories or read so many convergence stories.

And they're always different. No one really has the same verse. But for some reason, this one rocked me. the disciple asked Jesus, Lord, why is it that you manifest yourself to us but not to the world? And I'm hearing this and thinking, great question. What's he going to say? Because I think this might be my answer. This might be what I've been searching for. Like have I underestimated him all these years? And he says, in a way that Jesus did so many times in some kind of reverse psychology, he says, if anyone loves me, he will keep my will. word and my father will love him and we will come to him and make our home with him and suddenly i knew i was loved i was redeemed overwhelmingly i felt adopted healed restored and yet at the same time with all of

those emotions hitting me at once i also knew that jesus was identifying his followers as people that kept his word, and I didn't know his word. So at the same time feeling and knowing I was restored, I also suddenly had a intense desire to know his word so that I could keep it. And I also realized that for all these years, I had listened to preachers and gone to church and done the things, and the Bible wasn't at the center of all of that. And so for the first time ever, I realized the Bible was something I needed to consume on my own, in my own time. daily so that I could know all of his word so that then I could keep it. And that that began a new journey of reading his word. As I read his word now, they're like, this is my, this is the timeline for

me getting to the whole country music question. So then that the timeline continues, I find what I truly believe is a Matthew 1344 treasure, a hidden treasure in a field that a man found and covered up than in his joy. It goes and sells all that he has and buys that field. And I'm trying to reconcile this. I'm trying to reconcile. If anyone would come after me, let him take up his cross and follow me. Let him deny himself. And I'm reconciling this with going on stage and receiving glory and needing attention and receiving praise. And I'm saying, it's okay. That stuff's okay because I'm telling people the gospel on the stage or I'm seeing an amazing great. So it's all worth it. Or is it? Because something was still had me tied up a little bit on the end.

side. And I was thinking, okay, well, Romans 12 said I should, I should test myself by, by, I should test myself by discerning the will of God with my mind, by the renewal of my mind. So let me test myself on the stage. Then I go up there after several times on the stage and I would, I would think, I'm going to totally test my heart, my position as I'm performing music. And I would think, why are those people in the front road not, why they not raising their hand? What's wrong with them. Uh-oh. Then I would think, why are those seats in the back not full? It was full last time we came. What's wrong with this town? And then I just knew I'm in sin. Performing is causing me to sin. This is a sin for me. And even at that, even recognizing that, I didn't immediately think,

well, I'm going to quit it. I just thought, this is, there's something inherently wrong with all of this, reconciling the idea that, well, God gave you a gift to sing, so you should use that platform for him. And God's going, I get my glory, how I get my glory. So I wrestled with this for a few years. And before I realized, it wasn't a record label I needed to give up, which I did. It wasn't a radio single, which I needed to give up, which I did. It was all of it. I needed to surrender music, performing, all of it.

And so I actually, when I first thought, of that. When I first knew, and I felt peace in just thinking that, admitting that to myself, I came to my wife and said, I'm leaving music. And it wasn't totally in a vacuum because she knew I had been wrestling with it. She said, okay, when? And I said, I guess right now. And she said, no, you need it. You owe it to people to at least do a farewell tour so you could say goodbye. I'm glad she said that. I believe she was right to kind of ramp it down and tell everybody why I was doing this. And then August, I believe the 26th of last year was the final show. Okay, guys, first sponsor for the day is Adele Natural Cosmetics. I absolutely love this company.

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Ali, you can get 25% off your first time purchase. That's Adela natural cosmetics.com code alley. I kind of want to go back to, you said that you hit rock bottom after your son, River died. That's a parent's oars nightmare. I have a three-year-old as well as two other kids, and I haven't been through that, but I can imagine. I think you've written it was a drowning accident. So just completely unexpected out of nowhere, I can just, I can imagine just the absolute turmoil and feeling like, is there any reason for me to even go on? Can you talk about that moment? And why, how you decided to step toward truth, light, and the Lord rather than a way? Because a lot of people, even people who profess to be Christians, they would say, well, I'm not serving a God who would do this.

And there's so much evil that goes on in this world. This is so unfair. Why him forget the faith stuff? But that's not what happened for you. So can you talk about that? Yeah, I mean, that question, we could probably sit here for about seven hours and not fully come close to unpacking the problem of evil. What happens in a man's heart when he decides to go one way when he could have gone the other?

when we also know that the heart of man plans its way but the Lord establishes his steps and so I want to say before I answer any of that I want to say that the Lord saved me and if I face him tomorrow or today and he says why Granger why did you choose me instead of going the other way I said Lord it's only but your grace. Only by your grace is, do I stand here through the sacrifice of your son? Because I deserve hell. And only by the grace of your son, do I have the ability to stand before God? That's it. And so when I look back on the dark day, there is no reason why I was on the back of my tour bus with a gun deciding that I would just be the world would be better without me and in that

moment only by the grace of God I noticed something and I noticed that I was not alone but but not in a not in a profound angel sitting on my shoulder I noticed that there was something else another presence that speaking to me through my thoughts. That's kind of that this is a hard thing to describe and I think that's the best way to put it. And it was it was pure evil. It was a voice that said this is the way. This is the way to rest. This is the way to peace. Just pulled a trigger. And so looking back now, it was only by the grace of God, there was a certain amount of discernment that suddenly I realized, that's not me thinking these things. There's something else influencing me right now, and how long have I left this door open

for this, for this enemy that has now surrounded me, outnumbered me, and is about to take me out. I felt all that in that moment. I felt this is Ephesian 6 spiritual war. I'm in it. I'm in it and I realized that. And then it was at that point when I, at rock bottom with nothing else, I had no weapons to defend myself against this enemy.

That's when I said, Lord Jesus, please, God, please save me. And then that voice stopped. And I felt just enough peace to drop that gun. And I slid down to the floor and, and, and cried myself to sleep. Yeah. That's when the new journey started, oh, I think I've underestimated who Jesus is.

That's what started everything. That was the catalyst. Wow. You have a video on your Instagram, which I thought was really powerful, where you say that suicide is actually the ultimate act of self-love. Now, some people hearing that out there, they're like, what in the world are you talking about?

that self-loaty, that self-hatred. I 100% agree with you have said a very similar thing that it is for love of flesh and for comfort that someone would take their own life because it is escaping the pain. It's escaping the trial. Can you talk more about that? Because some people have never heard that message. Yeah. And a lot of people really disagree with me on that.

And I guess you too. No, I don't disagree with you. I know, I know, but people disagree with you. Oh, yes, yes, yes. I totally agree. Yes. People are, they resist that idea. They think it's a very dangerous idea. Look, I'm not really in the business of giving soft ideas. I think I'm going to say some things that are dangerous. And I'm certainly not always right about things. But I feel from my own, I've tried to unpack this for a long time. And every time I go up against it, and I'm looking at it with the lens of what Scripture tells us, then suicide is the pinnacle of self-love. And like you said, people immediately knee-jerk and go, no, it's self-hate.

And I say, what is self-hate? Because the opposite of love is indifference. and so hate is actually very closely related self-hate and self-love are actually very closely related it takes a very similar emotion for that because the opposite of both of those things is indifference and no one is indifferent to themselves like i you know what i don't i don't love or hate myself i'm just indifferent to myself i don't really care i don't care what i eat i don't care if i get a good night's sleep i don't care about anything in the flesh no one is like that we always are paying close to you attention to ourselves and satisfying our flesh constantly. And so the ultimate form of that is saying,

you know what, I'm going to end this because that gives me rest. That gives me peace to this flesh that it's screaming out. You may say you hate it. And that's okay too. I think that's very similar. But even with self-hate, the pinnacle of it is saying, I'm going to end it. Regardless of what family thinks, our friends, or anyone else around me, I'm doing it. I'm doing it. this for me. The people instantly, their immediate reaction is, no, suicide is not for yourself. It is so that you're relieving other people of your burden. And I say, well, let's really think about that. I know that sounds nicer and that sounds sweeter. That's a softer blow to say, no, it's suicides for others to help them not have the burden of the person. Is it? I think we should really

think about where the heart of suicide is. Right. Right. While self-love has been, I think, almost adopted by some well-meaning Christians as the 11th commandment or as implicit within Jesus's commandment to love others as we love ourselves. And I say, no, that's not a command to love ourselves. No. It is what he is saying is you naturally love yourself.

Absolutely. And as you so naturally, instinctively seek to meet your own needs, seek to meet the needs of others. We don't need instruction or encouragement to love ourselves. In fact, when we read that word self-love in the New Testament, it's talking about the evil of the end times that they will be lovers of self. So I agree with you. 100% agree with that.

Yeah. And it's controversial. It's controversial to. say. But the truth is, is that we don't need self-love to treat ourselves well or to treat others well, is that we are compelled by the love of Christ. Self-love undulates. It waxes and wanes, but Christ's love stays the same. And that's really good news. It's actually much better news than the gospel of self-love. But speaking of that, you write a lot about self-help in your book. and that self-love, self-help message, they're kind of inextricably intertwined.

And so talk about that when you realize that, okay, this self-help stuff that I have been imbibing really isn't helping me as much as I thought it was. Yeah, I mean, the danger of it's in the name itself, self-help. As Christians, we know we can't help ourselves. We can't. And so, first of all, we should discern. the difference in our definition and say we're not talking about, we're not talking about keeping up the normal things that we require to live on planet Earth. You know, we need to eat.

We should, we should brush our teeth. We should keep up with hygiene. We should do things that are good for self-care. So let's, let's not mystify that for self-help because self-help. And that's just stewardship. That's just stewardship. That's being responsible for, for, for the vessels that we are. But when we get into self-help, there is a, there's a theology related to that. It is a religion, and ever since the way, there's doctrine, there are apostles and prophets, there are regimens and routines and sacraments that you do, all associated with self-help. and the heart of it is I'm my own Savior. If no one else can do it, I could do it. I'm going to save this. I'm going to build this. If I'm a king one day, it's because I did it. If I'm in poverty, it's because I didn't do it.

But regardless, it's all about me. It all comes from within me manifesting the power within me to then go out and take the world. That is the heart of all of self-help. And it is, It's dangerous. It's appealing. It's attractive to the flesh. And we should all be very, very cautious of it at all times. Okay, y'all, good ranchers, has an amazing deal going on right now. If you subscribe to any box of meat, so you get that box of American meat on your front porch every month. You can get a free add-on to that box every month for the next four years. So a free add-on would be like free beef or free chicken or free bacon or, for free salmon. They will add that to your box every month for the next four years. That's like $1,200 in savings. You are not going to find that kind of deal in the grocery store. Plus, it's

really hard to find affordable, all-American meat. That's what you're getting from Good Ranchers. Plus, the convenience factor shows up at your front door every month. That is, that's what does it for me, honestly. That's why we rely on Good Ranchers and the Stucky household. It's so good. Go to goodranchers.com. When you use code Alley, you'll not only get that ad on deal, you will also get $25 off your first box. Good Ranchers.com code Alley. Did you feel like it had led you to believe things about God that just weren't true? And in the midst of your grief, did those things kind of like, I don't know, highlight themselves? Did they kind of come to a head?

Yeah, for sure. It came to a head. And I am thankful that the Lord brings people. to the absolute end of themselves. And it happens throughout history and throughout Scripture itself. We're brought down to the absolute end of ourselves so that we could know that we can only depend on Him. And so self-help certainly teaches us that God is an add-on to our lives.

God is just an accessory. God is something we say. God, of course, created all things, and He created me so that I could be who I am and I need to build myself. to the potential... I've heard it put some time... It's crazy now. If you think theologically about it,

people will say things like, one day God will show you when you face him who you could have been if you tried a little bit harder. Like, what is it? That makes no sense. God's going to show you the nice version of yourself that you could have been

if you tried a little bit harder to conquer the world. Yeah. So it's an incredible enticement. It reminds me, of the original sin, it takes me right back to the garden to think about, you have control over this to be God yourselves, is the message of self-help. So absolutely it teaches a wrong message.

It cultivates cultural Christianity all the time. Yes. How did the loss of your son affect your marriage? Well, it is only by God's grace that Amber and I tracked the same. in this journey toward God. And so that's not something I did or really that Amber did as far as look how great we were and being resilient and coming towards each other. But we just did.

And I think the Lord was very kind and probably it probably wouldn't have been possible. If Amber wasn't tracking with me, I don't know what would have happened when I needed every bit of her encouragement. Amber, and this is, it's just crazy, but I was the responsible adult when we lost Rive in her pool. I was the one in the backyard with all the kids at the time. And Amber was in the house. And if she ever would have said in her darkest moment, in her moment of weakness, if she ever would have said, how dare you to have done this to our children?

If she ever would have just slipped in a moment of weakness, it might have crippled me. It might have been too much. But she never, ever did that. She always said, we're in this together. We started this together. We're in this together. We're responsible for our kids together. And there was so powerful that she was able to do that.

And that's the grace of God too. Yeah. Wow. Fast forward to when you made the decision to leave country music and you are taking, you took a leap of faith because this had been your provision. This had been what provided for your family for all of these years. As you said, this was your way of life. In some ways, this was your identity. You realized you couldn't reconcile, denying yourself taking up your cross with also, you know, wanting the accolades and fame, which I think is something that everyone would strong.

with. Tell me about taking that step and trusting God just for providing for your family, who you would be, what you would do. What did that look like? First of all, not easy. And it wasn't, I don't have some kind of superpower. I just said, yeah, I'm just going to just quit all this. It was a long time. I keep a journal every morning and it's digital so I could look back on the last several years. And so I watch as I kind of tracked through these thoughts. And, you know, three years ago I'm saying things like, I don't know how much longer I could do, I could reconcile being a musician like this and glorify myself. I don't know how am I to do this.

And so it was a long process. And it just that that weight got heavier and heavier. And, you know, we see in the book of Joshua when the, when the Lord commanded the priest carrying the ark to step into the water of the Jordan. and when their feet were solely planted on the rock, he would stop the water. We know we could look back and go, oh, it was harvest season. That water was probably crazy. And I can't imagine what that would have been like for this entire nation of Israel to go up to that river and go, well, you want us to step into that?

Lord, we want you to stop it first. That's always our inclination. Like, Lord, you move and then I'll move. and he says, you move, and then I'll move. And I struggled with that. I knew that that's what I needed to do. I knew that there wasn't provision for my family, but I knew that if I'm being faithful to what I saw in Scripture,

then the Lord's going to provide. I mean, he provides to the sparrows. Why am I not much more value than they? So it's so crazy because when I did that, when I first said, I'm doing this, and I'm going to announce the farewell tour, I left the record label, which was crazy a year before that. And then the Lord brought me a radio show. Within like eight days, I got a call from a couple people at a big conglomerate saying, hey, will you host a radio, an overnight radio show? I'd never been in radio. I had no experience in radio. And I was instantly. I was like, there it is.

That's the, Lord, you stop the water. So now I'll walk across this river. And I'm not, I hesitate saying that story because that, not everyone is going to experience immediate, you know, answers to prayers like that. Sometimes it's, sometimes the prayers are answered in different ways. But, um, I had to just trust, oh, am I not of much more value than sparrows? Mm-hmm. Let me take the sleep.

I'm in sin. I'm in sin, so I need to get away from this sin. And so here we are today. And so recognizing that, I do know at any moment I might get fired from this radio job. In fact, I know I will. I will say something one day and I'll get fired from it. I hope it's not today or tomorrow. But when I do, and I don't try to do that.

but as a Christian man working in a secular industry, it's going to have a shelf life and then the Lord will provide. And as someone who still has a public platform, how do you work through the struggles that you had as a performer of wanting a certain number of people to be watching you, to be there, to be supporting you? is that still something that you feel like you face that you have to resist when you have a radio show and a public platform on social media, et cetera? That is a great question and something I need to be thinking about all the time. I need to be continually testing myself.

Yeah. And so I need to set up, I need to set up barriers around me. And those barriers come in the form of people, wise counsel. I'm so grateful for my church. I'm a huge church guy. And I just feel like we're in a society now where people feel like as Christians they could actually operate outside of a church

and that that's okay and that they find church in the woods or whatever they say. And it's just not set up that way. We have to be in community and we can't do this alone. And so we need to have pastors, wise people around us where we say,

hey, you know, I struggle with the temptation of needing people to praise me. And I struggled with that in music. And so my pastor goes, one thing I want to do for you is next year in 2025, I don't want you preaching more than seven Sundays the entire 2025 so that you could be with your family in church and so that you could resist the need to feel like that's your new singing career. It's like, okay. great so then in submission to my pastor say okay seven sundays so we will not cross that that that's one of the barriers um the radio show i i don't do interviews with other artists it's a country music overnight

radio show i don't do interviews i feel like that might be a trigger for me if i'm hanging around too many country singers and interviewing them and i also don't do like red carpets and things like i try to stay away from that as much as I can't because that might be a trigger for me. So when I'm just recording the show by myself, it's just me. And I don't have anybody saying, great job Granger, you know, no one's cheering me on when I'm behind the mic by myself. So that's some of the things that I want to always be doing to protect myself from that, that, hey, I went from a singer that needs praise to a preacher that needs praise, which is worse. Yeah.

And you know what? That is true for anyone, no matter how big their platform is. Because like you said, it goes back to the Garden of Eden. You can be like, God. It wasn't necessarily an audience that was tempting her. But all of us desire to be adored, praised, worshipped. And all of us need accountability against that. All right.

I don't have to tell you all that the world is crazy. we don't know what to expect. Things feel really unstable, but you want to make sure your savings are stable and secure. And that's why you got to talk to my friends at Birch Gold. Gold is a way to hedge against inflation and all of the economic turbulence that we are facing. If you want to see about possibly converting an IRA or 401k into gold, you've got to talk to Birch Gold. They are experts in this. They have amazing customer service. They've helped so many people. All you have to do is text to Allie to 989898.98. And when you do, they will send you a free no obligation information kit just so you can learn more about it. Text Allie to 9898. I do have one question. I know we're kind of bouncing around

a little bit, but after the tragedy with your son, I'm just curious. I know you mentioned just how the grace of God covered not just you and your wife individually, but you're a marriage. But I'm also curious how this affected you as a parent. I think that my propensity would be toward paranoia, control, never wanting to loosen the reins at all. Like, no, you are never, you're never leaving this little circle, this proximity right here. How did you trust God in parenting after that? Yeah, what you just said is a normal lean. A lot of seen people do that. With Amber and I've met a lot of couples that have lost children now, and we see that a lot. People. just like, well, we're never leaving the house. And, you know, COVID hit and people are like,

well, we're just going to live indoors forever. And so I think the most important, probably the foundational answer to a lot of those kind of questions are my personal devotional time. So, and the purpose of, to put it simply as I can, the purpose of my personal reading the Bible time, working through it in some kind of systematic way, whether that's starting in one book and reading forward or being part of a reading plan that you have multiple starting places. Like I'm in the McShane plan right now where it's four, I have typically four books that I read every morning. But the purpose really is, at the core of everything, to know who God is.

So the more we read his word, the more we're consuming it, the more we're delighting ourselves in it, the more we know who he is. The more we know who he is, the more we could trust him. And trust is another word for having faith in him. And the more we have faith in, the one that we trust, which is the one that we know, then the more we can go, it just kind of goes into all aspects of our life, including parenting. And so I can go, Lord, I trust you. I want to raise my kids the way you say I need to raise kids. I want to love my wife the way you say I need to love my wife. I want to protect my kids or prepare them the way you say I need to do it. And if I'm outside of that, which would be a overly protective helicopter

parent, if I'm in that world, I need to reconcile myself back to what you say I need to be doing, Lord. And so that's why I never, ever skip that personal morning cup of coffee before the family gets up, reading the Bible, no matter what I'm doing, no matter where I am, I have to consume that to continue to, so it trickles down into things, the dangers of raising kids being too protective because we lost one. Yeah, definitely. Man, that's really good. And you don't really always think about the mooring effects of that personal Devo time, the anchoring effect of it. Sometimes I have the propensity to think, well, I'm, yes, of course, this helps me grow in sanctification and holiness and obedience. I know that in an abstract sense. It's also just helping me gain knowledge. It's helping me prepare to have an answer for things. All of those things are true.

but you kind of just forget it's gravitational force. Like it's pulling you back in such practical ways to what is good, right, and true. I don't know that I necessarily would have thought about my personal devotional time being the antidote to either helicopter parenting, which is based on fear or, you know, apathetic parenting, which doesn't, you know, parent. enough. And so, yeah, that's really important. It's a daily, it's a daily feast that we're, that we're taking, not just something we can do once a month and hope for the best. Yeah. And once you finish reading the Bible, that's just the beginning. It's, it's a lifetime. And so that sanctification is a lifetime journey. So is our study of who he is. Because it's interesting how many times we see in the Bible, it says something about wisdom comes from

knowledge or our growth, our fruits in the spirit come from the knowledge. It's always the knowledge. Jesus even said, Father, I've come so that they know you. It's always about knowing him and how do we know him? It's not because he's writing letters in the sky. It's not because a butterfly flies up or a red cardinal. It's because he's revealed himself in his word, almost as if it is living and active sharper than any two-edged sword. It's almost as if scripture itself. It's is identifying itself as the way that we need to know our creator. Yes. And just a quick recommendation from you, if someone is like, okay, I want to start

reading my Bible or start reading my Bible again, I don't know where to start. What did you do? What would you recommend? Well, I'd say, first of all, let's start with what not to do. if you we're talking about devo time we're not talking about bible study we're not talking about the sermon series you're in at church we're not talking about your small group that you're in and we're not talking about your personal like say you want to you want to learn more about suffering who god is through suffering that's a great thing to do but that's we're not talking about this in devo time devo time is

the word is speaking to you so we have to really say that what you you you your divot time is not, is picking and choosing verses or topics or things to study. Instead, let's start someplace and let's work forward. And so then at the place to start, I don't know, John one is a good place. Matthew one's a good place. Romans one is a good place. Genesis one is a good place. So I don't think it, I personally, when all this just became clear to me. I started Matthew one. I thought, well, that's beginning of New Testament, the birth of Christ. Let's start there. Let's work through the four gospels. And then let's get into Acts. And then let's get into Romans. But if someone is already a Christian and they're

happy with where they are in their walk, then I would say, let's get in a good reading plan that puts you in several places of the Bible where the starting place is like, like I'm the McShane plan, for instance, is one time through the Old Testament in a year, twice through the Psalms, and twice through the New Testament. And it's going to come up with about four different starting places, one chapter. Okay. So there's lots of plans like that out there. There's so many plans. And that's a good one. What I just said is not the right one. It's just A1. It's A1. Right, right. I love starting with the Book of John, but you're right. There are so many places to start. I love a good study Bible because I just have a million questions whenever I'm reading.

I love the ESV study Bible. And it's okay to feel overwhelmed. It's certainly okay not to know what every single verse means. Even the foremost theologians and scholars cannot tell you what every single verse means. And so it's okay to have those questions and to dig in. That's right. And maybe another thing to add is don't do too much. Yeah.

Because if you're reading a study Bible and you're chasing footnotes, which you should, it's going to take you a while. It's so true. So don't have the big goal in mind if I'm going to read the book of Matthew in five days. Right. Let's just go a few pages at a time. Yes, so true. All right. The last sponsor for the day is Jace Medical.

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what your thoughts are surrounding it now. Oh, man. Yeah, what a journey it's been. So I guess I'll try to say the quick story leading into that. I am totally against any kind of any kind of surgical contraception. I think the decisions to do those things that are that are irreversible are are very careless. And that's what we did. Amber had her tubes tied after the birth of River, which was 2016. And I look back on that now as if we just had an idea of when our family would start or finish. You know, it's kind of what we were saying.

And I get the argument of we're trying to be responsible and, you know, but I am against surgical contraception in that way. because it put us in a really tough spot. After we lost RIV, I was overwhelmed with the feeling that I had more love to give. And we knew that adoption is always an option. It is right now. That's always what I'm praying through. So we'll put that adoption talk aside. That is very much alive and well in our family.

But then the idea came, well, we can't have, we biologically cannot have another baby. So I brought it up to Amber. Immediately she didn't like the idea. She sounded like replacing a baby, and she was very upset with that idea. I had a moment, several months after that, when I had that first discussion with Amber, I had a moment as I was riding with the kids in the car. and my son Lincoln looks out into this cornfield in central Texas where there's no trees, and he was just staring out of the window, and he just said something out of the blue.

He said, Daddy, does God make some of the trees and man makes some of the trees? And I answered quickly without thinking about it. Then I said, nobody, God makes all the trees, but sometimes man needs to plant the seed. and I was so confused by how strange that sounded. But days later, when we got back into the discussion, Amber told me that the doctor said there is an option, it's IVF. And we could have another baby, but it's costly. The odds are very low, especially her age, 39 years old. And then she really struggled.

She said, but how could we reconcile playing God? and planting a baby in my belly. And I remember feeling overwhelmed with that thought, God makes all the babies. Sometimes man plants the seed. And I felt a piece in that, and a rest in that. And then as we started the IVF process,

we ran into an immediate problem. It was, what do we do with these fertilized eggs? forgive me, I don't know all the terminology, so I'm just going to speak, you know, layman's terms. The embryos. Yeah. What do we do with this? And as we were growing our faith, we were very cultural, very nominal coming out. I was reborn.

And so I was studying as hard as I could, but still, even as much as I was studying, I didn't, I couldn't really reconcile a lot in those times. Who is God? You know, it's like back to the discussion of who is God? What does God want from us? And so we knew that this was a problem. This was a very apparent problem. So we decided then... That you had multiple embryos that she didn't have an intention to transfer.

Because the options were donate to science or destroy them, basically, or save them for, you know, who knows what. So we decided then we'll just implant them all. We'll implant all of them. And so the way it turned out in our sense, situation, all of them died, except two, two boys. And we implanted the, once again, I'm sorry, the terminology. I don't think that's the right. The transfer. Transfer. Yeah. The most viable, statistically viable boy, and Amber miscarried. She became pregnant, and then she miscarried. There was one left. We transferred the last one, and it took, and the pregnancy took. And now Maverick

because at home, he's three years old. So it felt like with the idea of the trees and the man, plants, and it felt like there was peace in that. And then I continued my journey and continued thinking through this and reading and thinking about who God is. And the more and more I ran into it that in so many times in life what we could do is we could we could test things by just looking at the fruit of the of the system so if you're worried about a person look at their fruits if you're worried about a university look at the fruits if you're worried about any kind of system look at the fruits and so I started looking at that clinic that we went to and what they're promoting on social media rotten fruit all of it was there was no

Nothing in it that was like, oh, that's healthy. That's biblical. All of it was opposite of it. Rotten fruit coming on from this clinic. As far as sexuality, marriage. Everything. What they're promoting through IVF was so that anybody could have a baby. Not a man and a woman, not a married man and woman.

And that wasn't just that clinic. And so that was like, oh, that doesn't feel, this doesn't feel right. reconciled needs, doesn't feel right. And then the more and more, and this is something I really, the Lord really did a work in me because we have a, we have a boy at home, Maverick. And the first thing that we know is that babies are never to blame. Because a baby might come from sin, does not mean the baby is sin or in sin at all. And we see that story repeated throughout history. babies are always right. A baby that is here is always right.

A baby that's conceived is always right no matter how it was conceived. Whether it's rape or IVF or whatever it might be, the baby is never a mistake. The baby's always right. So put that aside. You know, like take that information. There's Maverick. We love them.

These are baby boys. Put it on the shelf. But then how do I move forward on a public platform and how do I speak to that and tell you where I am today as we sit here I go I would not do it wouldn't touch it the fruits of it are rotten the what we know from it now there is there is so much evil surrounding it evil coming out of it the ability to put to put this kind of technology in evil hand evil people's hands is too much to bear and I would say I would not recommend it. I would say stay away from it. And I would say let's open our arms wide

to adoption. There's so many Christian parents who would and do make excellent parents who do not realize before they go into IVF the ethical quandary that they will be placed in. Most just don't, no, they have the best of intentions. They never have any intention to destroy any emberts. They don't even realize that's going to be an option on the table. Say they create five embryos. Maybe they even have the intention to transfer all five at some point down the line. But then something happens. They get pregnant with the first. It's a complicated birth. They realize there's no way that they can transfer and implant the rest of their embryos. What did they do? I've talked to women like this. They're Christians. They say, I know these are babies made in the image of God in their earliest stages of life.

I don't want to adopt them out. I don't want to destroy them. I don't want to donate them to science. And I don't want to freeze them indefinitely. That is a really difficult position for a lot of people to be in. And so, and people just don't realize it. So it's not coming from a place of hatred or condemnation for me. It's just a place of realization that these are babies made in the image of God. Most people don't know very often the eugenics process, the destruction process that is inherent. And then as you said, the industry as a whole, everything that it promotes is so extremely problematic, more than a million babies on ice right now. So yeah, there's a lot involved. You know what's interesting, too, as I've kind of worked through this, I think you're absolutely

right, everything you said, and this is coming from an IVF family, if there's a couple out there that have struggled with fertility, and first of all, I'm so sorry, I can imagine. I can imagine. imagine the struggle, the difficulty, the wrestling from a Christian family. There is another way that's interesting, and this is kind of new to me. I mean, you just kind of hinted at it, but there are millions of babies on ice right now. Do you know those are available for adoption as well? And I'm just now learning this, but if we stopped IVF completely today, stopped it forever, there are still millions that can be adopted and transferred today into a mother.

That's a very interesting thought as well and something that's not well known and not well talked about. But it's interesting. And I am, as we stand today, I'm against IVF. Yes. I think it's called Snowflake Adoption. And it is an option. And, you know, as you mentioned, there are also so many, so many babies, so many children in foster care. And I say this as someone who hasn't yet adopted either, but it should be, I think, on the table for anyone who can, especially any Christian.

Yes. Well, thank you so much for your vulnerability, your transparency. And I love what the Lord is doing through you and your family and just the testimony of redemption that he has written with your life and even the tragedy. that you and your family have been through. How can people follow you, support you, encourage you, listen to you, read your book, all that good stuff? Yeah, I think probably the best hub is GrangerSmith.com and all social media, I'm just Granger Smith.

Granger Smith. Okay, thank you so much, Granger. I really appreciate you taking the time to come on. Thank you for having me.