Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 1048 | Deconstruction: Where It’s from & How to Stop It | Guest: Alisa Childers

Starting point is 00:00:00 deconstruction. What is it? Why are so many people in your life doing it? Today we've got Elisa Childers. She is an author and an apologist. We love having her as a guest. She is going to break down exactly what deconstruction is and how you can push back against it. Also, how can you lovingly speak the truth to people in your life who are deconstructing their faith? Such an encouraging and educational conversation for me. I know it will. be for you too. This episode is brought to you by our friends at Good Ranchers. Go to Good Ranchers.com. Use code Allie at checkout. Good Ranchers.com code Allie. Lisa, thanks so much for taking the time to join us again. Oh, man. It's so great to be back with you and in person this time, which is fun. Yes.

Starting point is 00:00:55 First time meeting in person, which is sometimes hard to believe. It's sometimes hard to remember when I've crossed paths with someone so much, whether we've met in person or not. But finally, in the flash. Okay. I know that probably everyone looks. listening to this, washing this, knows exactly who you are. But just in case, can you give everyone a short bio? Yes. So I do worldview speaking and I write books, but I never thought that that was going to be my vocation because I was always in music. So I spent about seven or eight years in the contemporary Christian music industry as a part of the group. I almost said spice girls, but it's Zoe Girl. That would be amazing. That was like a slip. I am talking to a

Starting point is 00:01:36 spice girl about how she is now a Christian apologizing. That should tell you what type of a group we were because we really were like the Christian spice girls in 2000. So yeah, love Jesus my whole life. Always been a Christian very deeply devoted to Christ my whole life. But then as a result of going through a class at a progressive Christian church that I didn't know was progressive at the time, my faith was really rocked. I mean, this was like in my 30s after I was married and had kids. And it really brought me to the edge of agnosticism. I was so just confused about what I had believed all my life.

Starting point is 00:02:11 And because the beliefs in this class were deconstructed, they were explained away that it just propelled me into a faith crisis that was indescribably painful, agonizing, disorienting. But God in his faithfulness led me to study. So I studied for years and God rebuilt my faith and I made course corrections along the way. But that's really ultimately what led me to start a podcast and a blog and write books to help other people who might be seeing some of these things in culture and they might have language for it, but hopefully I can help them kind of make sense of some of the crazy that we see now.

Starting point is 00:02:46 Yes. And you've read or written rather. I'm sure you've read plenty too, but written several books on this. Another Gospel was released in 2020. Your most recent book, The Deconstruction of Christianity, what it is, why it's destructive, and how to respond. All of that is important. it, but that last part, I get a lot of questions about what do you say to this? My cousin said this. My spouse said this. This random post on Instagram said this. How do I respond to this? Is that why you wrote this book because of questions you were receiving like that? Yeah, I would say that's a huge reason because I've been speaking about deconstruction and progressive Christianity for years. And it never really occurred to me to address that part of it. Like now how do you take this information and apply it? Because

Starting point is 00:03:37 I was always just like, well, here's what's going on. The house is on fire. Everybody pay attention over here. And yet the number one question I would get when I go speak is what do I specifically do in my specific relationship or my specific situation? And so we did dedicate a third of the book to that question. We wanted to give people a really practical way forward to think about how can we how can we befriend somebody who is in deconstruction, especially when they think we're toxic and unhealthy and unsafe? How do we do that sort of a thing? But I would say the second big reason that my co-author Tim and I wanted to write this book is because we just thought the way that a lot of evangelicals were talking about deconstruction was not helpful. So I've been watching this movement

Starting point is 00:04:21 for probably about 14 years since that's about when my faith crisis happened. And I actually thought that what happened to me was deconstruction. In fact, in my first book and other gospel, I actually use that word to describe my journey. It's the best word I had at the time. It's what I thought happened to me because it was a really awful experience. And I always saw deconstruction as a negative thing. But then in the past three to five years, I started to see well-meaning evangelicals talk about deconstruction as if it can be a positive, healthy, good thing. And I thought, man, that's very confusing because if you go online and you go into that hashtag, which is primarily where the movement is taking place,

Starting point is 00:05:00 there's nobody in that movement that's saying, hey, keep the Bible in the forefront, you know, make sure objective truth is what you're going for, make sure you're searching for truth. So I actually changed my mind on what happened to me. I don't use the word deconstruction anymore because even though it was years long, it was agonizing, it was painful, it was a crisis,

Starting point is 00:05:20 I was always searching for truth outside of myself. I didn't want to just go with what I personally felt, was healthy or unhealthy, liberating or oppressive, toxic or helpful or whatever those words are, I wanted to know first what's true because I don't think we can know what is toxic unless we first know what's true. Right. So that's the distinction between what you went through. And again, just to summarize, you were a part of a church. You didn't realize it was progressive at the time, but it started kind of attacking the central tenets of Christianity of like, is the Bible true? the definition of holy sexuality, marriage, and all of that.

Starting point is 00:05:59 The atonement, resurrection, all of that, yeah. And had you questioning those things that you hadn't questioned before. But in that, you still realize that there was an authority that was higher than you, and you wanted to get closer to that. That's right. Whereas deconstruction says, even if it doesn't start this way, it ends this way, with I am the ultimate authority. I am the prism through which all theology has to travel. and whatever comes out, as you said, whatever I deem not toxic, whatever I deem good for me, making me happy, that is what truth is. And my truth starts to overtake the truth. That's what

Starting point is 00:06:38 happens in deconstruction, right? Yeah, that's very well put. And then how does it start, though, like how does deconstruction, real deconstruction, not just what you did of questioning? How does real deconstruction typically start in someone's faith? Well, it can start. with simply questioning. It can start with somebody maybe questioning, why do we believe that Jesus was resurrected or how do we know we have the right books of the Bible? How do we know the people we think wrote the Bible really wrote it? How do we know they told the truth and that they, you know, the things they talk about really happened? Good questions. And those are great questions. In fact, in the book, we're really careful to say those are really good questions. And I think

Starting point is 00:07:15 every Christian should be asking those questions. So it can start with that. And maybe it just kind of goes from there into other types of questions and questioning biblical sexual ethics. But one thing we point out in the book is it's not just questioning. It's a particular way people question. So if you think about you and me, I would suspect, are similar, that when we ask a question, we're wanting to get to the answer. We want to know the answer. And we know that not every single question we're going to ask has a clear answer. Granted, that's great. We know that. But we're hoping to find the answer if it's there, if it's there to know. But in, deconstruction and in progressive Christianity, the question kind of becomes the point. It becomes

Starting point is 00:07:56 the most virtuous way to live would be to find the next question. And you don't want to land. In fact, many people in the deconstruction hashtag will tell you don't form new beliefs. If you do that, you'll just have to deconstruct those, which has to be pointed out, that's a belief, but we'll put that aside for a second. So it's a particular way of questioning. And that's why I think certain kinds of questioning can lead to a deconstruction. If you're sort of searching for truth and you're like, I want to dig into the evidence. I'm going to read some good scholarship. You know, that's great. But in deconstruction, that's typically not the way that it's done. It's not that they're not reading scholarship, but they're reading a particular type of scholarship,

Starting point is 00:08:35 the more liberal and skeptical scholarship. And they're going to be led down that path that ultimately is going to line up with their own personal thoughts and feelings. So that can be one way. Another thing that can trigger a deconstruction is abuse. Abuse is a huge conversation in the church right And I think that it's very confusing conversation in the deconstruction movement because you might have one person who has legitimately been abused by a spiritual leader and they are confused and they don't know where to turn. They don't feel safe in church. And that person has all of my compassion and empathy. And I want to help that person and get them to a safe place and hold the leaders accountable, all of that. So you have everything from that to what's a very common narrative in deconstruction, which is that being told you're a is abusive, being told that Jesus died on the cross in a sacrificial atoning death, a bloody cross, you know, for my sins, that's abusive, to be told that hell is a real place of punishment in the afterlife. That is considered abusive. So the assumption in the deconstruction movement is that the church is wrong about hell and sexuality and the atonement and the nature of human

Starting point is 00:09:46 beings. And so because we're telling people they're sinners, that's just by nature abusive. So there's a lot of knots that have to be untied in that movement because like I said, you might have somebody with some legitimate abuse, but then somebody who just feels personally harmed by doctrines that I personally think are very life-giving. All right. First sponsor for the day is Every Life. This is America's only pro-life diaper company. They promote pro-life values.

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Starting point is 00:11:02 effective. But thankfully, I can have a peace of mind with all of those things because they work really well. And I love supporting a pro-life diaper company. If you go to everylife.com today and you use my promo code Alley 10, you can get a 10% discount on your first order. Everylife.com go to Ali 10. It seems to me that a common thread is LGBTQ. That I don't know if I could say that's the common starting place, but it seems to be either the starting place or where a lot of deconstructors end up. That that is the most evil part of Christianity that they could never subscribe to.

Starting point is 00:11:49 That homosexuality is simple. that there is a real biological dichotomy of male and female that is not flexible, is not changeable. And you hear language like, my God would never, or I could never worship a God who fill in the blank. And it is usually that that would call this sin. And within that is the big conflation between love and the affirmation of sin. and they confuse those things.

Starting point is 00:12:26 I don't know intentionally, unintentionally a lot. That if God really is love and if I'm called to love my neighbor, then of course I'm going to affirm someone so-called orientation or desire or identity. That seems to be the assumption of a lot of people who deconstruct and maybe even is like the keystone of their deconstruction in a lot of cases. Is that true? I think that's a very fair statement. In fact, I've said before, and I've gotten a lot of criticism for this, but I think it's true.

Starting point is 00:12:57 I don't think I've ever heard or read or witnessed a deconstruction story where that topic didn't at least play a part. Like you said, it's not necessarily the starting point for everybody. And it's not even everybody who deconstructs maybe struggles with that. But it's going to play a part. And I think it has so much to do with the way culture defines identity. and it so much has to do with identity because in the deconstruction movement and in culture at large, people have bought into this idea that you are your feelings, that you are who you're attracted to, you are your desires. And so as you've pointed out many times in your books and on your podcast,

Starting point is 00:13:37 you know, this idea that we're just supposed to dig down inside of ourselves and identify our deepest desires and then name those things, live them out and then cause other people or expect other people to affirm those things about us because the assumption is that what you're going to find down there is good. And so it's sort of it's built, it's the theological building blocks of the gospel, starting with, you know, of course, creation and God putting Adam and Eve in the garden, giving them the opportunity to do things his way or their way. Of course, they chose their way, which we have right there at the beginning, this sort of idea of the fall where humans are sinful. We're broken. There's something wrong with us. And right then and there, I think, is where the disagreement begins. And so in deconstruction, they've adopted this cultural idea that you shouldn't let anybody tell you that you're broken or that you're sinful or that your feelings in some way would be wrong. And so there's this affirmation. And of course, this is going to play right into the LGBTQ scenario that we see playing out in culture today, that you are your sexuality. And of course, this comes something that Freud really promoted and got a bunch of people to buy into. And there's

Starting point is 00:14:42 other people along the way that contributed to this. But that's where we're at in our culture, is that you really are your sexuality. That's your core identity. So for the deconstruction, when the Christian says homosexuality is sinful or homosexuality is forbidden. What they hear is I'm forbidden, right? And that, and that, I see why that could be confusing. But what Christianity is saying is it's requiring the same thing of everyone. Everyone has the same invitation to lay down our lives, deny ourselves, pick up our cross daily, and follow Jesus. And there's no sin biblically that is special when it comes to that, where we would sanctify it in some way or make it our identity. And yet that's a very unpopular thing to say in our culture today. And so in deconstruction,

Starting point is 00:15:26 I do think that LGBTQ piece is, I mean, I think you would call it a pillar. I don't think you could be accepted in that world if you hadn't left behind that, quote unquote, toxic theology, because that's a huge theme in deconstruction as well. And so teaching that homosexuality is sinful or that, like you said, sex is determined biologically. These are quote unquote toxic beliefs that really hurt people. Yeah. And someone who gives way on that, I find they typically end up giving way on everything else. Like I often say that I haven't met the person who starts by denying Genesis 127 and doesn't end by denying John 146. Like those things tend to go hand in hand, which is interesting.

Starting point is 00:16:19 I mean, I guess it goes back to the garden. It's a did God really say kind of situation. And people don't see sexuality and marriage as a central tenet of Christianity. But it is. I mean, the Bible starts with the marriage and ends with a marriage. We see the reality of male and female in the definition of marriage reiterated throughout scripture repeated by Jesus. And I think that's why kind of when you pull that block out, the whole edifice kind of starts

Starting point is 00:16:48 to fall over. Well, think about the creation mandate. So our purpose for being here is to be fruitful and multiply. That's what God told us to do. He created male and female, instituted marriage, and said, be fruitful and multiply.

Starting point is 00:17:01 So if you are the enemy of God, if you're the enemy of people, if you're the devil, you're going to go after that. You're going to try to do everything you can do to undermine that, erase that, abolish that, get people to be confused about that.

Starting point is 00:17:15 And I do think that's what we see because even the poison of modern feminism telling women that, you know, having children is an afterthought or being married as oppressive to have this idea of a male being the head of the home or the idea of submission. All of these things are all tied together. It's not like these are just separate topics that don't relate. They relate quite a bit. And it all goes back to Genesis. Deconstruction, I mean, theological progressivism and political progressivism really go hand in hand and function in. much the same way, if not the exact same way, whereas I see political progressives as simply

Starting point is 00:17:52 wanting to tear down the institutions that exist pretty indiscriminately. And now it's kind of under this umbrella of the like cis hetero, white patriarchy, whatever that is, taking down the definition of marriage, family, conflating all kinds of spheres of authority, open borders. I see it as an ideology of chaos. I see it also as a theology. of chaos, of taking apart and taking down everything that God has implemented for good. I heard this amazing quote, and I can't remember who said it over the weekend, because we talk a lot about how God is a God of order. He has created order for our good on earth. And someone said something that emphasizes this so well. And they said, God placed us in a garden, not a jungle. I never thought

Starting point is 00:18:42 about that before. A garden, not a jungle. Like a garden is orderly. It is cultivated. So right from the very beginning, he creates an order for things, not just between male and female, male or man and animals, but like even in the place where he put man and woman in a garden. And I see really progressivism in all its forms as the antithesis of order. So I guess my question for you is, as people are deconstructing and tearing down order and tearing down order and tearing. and tearing down these institutions that God has created for our good and these boundaries and parameters. Like, what are they trying to build? What are they trying to build back up?

Starting point is 00:19:28 Are they trying to create a new order or is the point just to lay waste to everything? That's a great question. I would say in my research and my experience with the movement, it seems that authority itself, which, you know, is sort of referred to as this hegemonic discourse, right? this idea that anyone could claim to know the grand meta-narrative of reality. This is seen as just a power play. And this is where postmodernism comes in. Right. So we are living in a culture that has, you know, most people don't walk around as if truth is relative, which is, you know, a hallmark of postmodernism. Most people don't walk around as if relativism is true in every area. Right. They go to the

Starting point is 00:20:09 bank. They expect their money to be there. They obey the traffic lights. They'll appeal to the law. In fact, we've seen signs pop up on lawns where people are appealing to science and, you know, certain types of facts and things. So it's not like they don't believe that truth can't be known in all areas. But they've sort of said what we should do and shouldn't do morally and religion. Those two categories have been moved into the opinion categories. So much like, you know, the style of clothing you'd like to wear or your favorite color or something like that. And so because of that, when the Christian comes along claiming to know what certain truths are like human. are sinful. Hell is a real place. You know, marriages between one man and one woman. They see that not as a question of, is that true? Because they don't even think that can be known in a postmodern culture. And this is very influential in deconstruction. But it's more like, why would the person be saying that? Well, they must be trying to protect their power. So the idea in deconstruction is that for the Christian to tell someone their sinners or to tell them that hell is a real place, that you can even know those things. So the church is just trying to protect its power. It's

Starting point is 00:21:11 trying to control people with fear. This is why I'm sure many of our very, viewers right now. I've probably experienced this where you go on social media, maybe you put up a Bible verse or something, and then someone comes on and says, oh, the church just invented the doctrine of hell to control people with fear. I mean, the church just tells you you're a sinner because that's what abusive people do. They knock you down a peg. They want you to be dependent on them so that they can control and manipulate you. And there's this assumption that the reason the church would be saying these things is because they're trying to oppress you and maintain their power. And And that's the thing that just blows my mind. Like when people push back on Tim and my book,

Starting point is 00:21:46 one of the most common pushbacks is like you guys are, you guys are teaching oppressive. It's oppressive to tell people that hell is a real place. And I'm thinking, well, only if it's not true. Because if hell really is a real place, that is a potential destination for someone, it would actually be very unloving and very unkind to not let them know about that. You know, if somebody's about to step into oncoming traffic, it would be unloving to just be like, well, you know, I don't know, maybe that bus isn't really coming at 60 miles an hour, you know. It would be very unloving to not intervene in any way you could, but it all depends on truth, which is largely what is denied in deconstruction, is that there is an objective truth that could

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Starting point is 00:23:12 And when you do, you'll get a free month when you use my offer code, Ali, Patriot mobile.com slash alley. With a lot of people who say they're deconstructing or who have deconstructed, they will, I find, simultaneously say that we can't really know what parts of the Bible are authoritative. They obviously don't believe that it's infallible and inherent, but that it was just kind of a bunch of men's in terms. interpretation of what they think God meant by certain things or even maybe they might, they might

Starting point is 00:23:53 ascribe to them, you know, like you said, desire to have control or have power over women and subjugate people. And that's why they wrote the parts of the Bible that they did. So they'll simultaneously say that, but they will appeal to parts of scripture to support their views. Like, for example, they'll say, well, you know, in Exodus, Israel was called to love the foreigner, and therefore we might need liberal border policy or even open borders. Or 1 John 4-8 says God is love, so I use that scripture to justify my position on X. Or Jesus said to love your neighbor or the early church. They were communist.

Starting point is 00:24:36 Like we hear these claims a lot. Of course, we don't agree at all with their interpretation or application. but they will appeal to scripture as an authority, even as they try to subvert the authority of scripture. So like you said, they do believe in authority, but only sometimes. And I guess I'm trying to understand the formula behind that. Well, that's a tough question because in the problem with trying to analyze the deconstruction movement is that there are so many different paths within the movement. So you, in fact, we just call it an explosion in the book because there's really not much in common once somebody leaves whatever they think evangelicalism is, right? So that ex-vangelical

Starting point is 00:25:17 hashtag, the whole point of deconstruction is to leave the evangelical church and leave behind these kind of toxic doctrines, this toxic theology. So you might have somebody that just immediately goes, I'm throwing the Bible out completely. Like, this is just a just big hegemonic discourse. This, I don't need this at all. And then maybe they become a secular humanist. You might have somebody who for a while might change their interpretation of scripture and go, gosh, like you said, you know, I read about Amos and doing justice. And then, of course, they're defining justice in a cultural, flowing out of potentially a Marxist way. And they're saying, well, we should be doing that.

Starting point is 00:25:57 And they're redefining words and then applying that to scripture and kind of playing fast and loose with it. And then there's others who might say, well, you know, I actually value the Bible a lot. But I think it's more of a human book about God. So really nothing in it is really authoritative. But maybe there are some things I can learn from it when people have maybe figured out something that is good about it. But of course, you're still making yourself the authority in those cases. So it's really tough to pin down a common way of approaching scripture. But one thing I do think that they all have in common is that if whatever path they're taking will refute the toxic theology that they've already decided is toxic, they'll go with it. So like you might even have a secular humanist who watches a, you know, a, you know, a. a story from somebody who still claims to be a progressive Christian, and the progressive Christian says, oh, the Bible says this, therefore we should be doing this. And the secular humanists will go, oh, yeah, sure, absolutely, because they're united in their sort of preconceived ideas of what is toxic and healthy,

Starting point is 00:26:53 theologically. Yeah. It really seems to me, you know, I typically say that our politics flow from our theology. What we think about God will determine what we think about culture, what we think about culture, will determine what we think about theology. But as I'm hearing you talk, and I'm seeing so many parallels, again, between progressive theology and progressive political ideology, I'm actually wondering if people's politics, if they allow their politics to end up affecting and fundamentally changing their theology. Because in 2020, I saw a lot of people who may even identify themselves as conservative Christians jumping on the BLM bandwagon, saying things about. about justice that are just not biblical, that actually push partiality, starting with the truth that we are all made in God's image, we all have dignity, and we all deserve the rights that flow from that dignity. But very often, when I see people latch on to social justice rather

Starting point is 00:27:56 than biblical justice, it seems like it's just a matter of time before they also compromise on the LGBTQ issue. And so what parallels do? do you see between the politics of progressivism and the theology of progressivism? In my mind, they are inextricably intertwined. Right. So a few years ago, I would have only been speculating. I would have said, it's my best guess that progressive Christians are starting with politics, and then their theology is kind of flowing out of that. And it's starting with this critical social justice definition of words like love and justice. But I can actually definitively say, there has been some research done on this now. So there's a sociologist named George Yancey

Starting point is 00:28:40 who released a book called One Faith No Longer. And in that book, he assessed the religious and political views of conservative Christians and progressive Christians. And how he defined those was conservative Christians were people who believe the Bible is the Word of God and progressive Christians don't believe the Bible is the word of God. So that was his way of delineating the two groups. And there was a lot of really interesting conclusions that came out of that research. But one was that what he realized in his research was that conservative Christians who believe the Bible is the word of God, just like you said, start with their theology. And then their political views are going to flow downstream from their theology. So they're going to make their political views based on what they

Starting point is 00:29:20 think about God and this study of God. Whereas with progressive Christians, they start with their politics. That's kind of the baseline that it starts with. And then their theological views are going to actually flow downstream from their politics. And so, In some ways, now this is, this is me talking. I don't think George said this in his book, but it seems to me like the narrative is that the conservatives are the political ones. You know, that's what we hear all the time. But it would seem to me that the research bears out that it's actually progressive Christians that are more political. And there's a lot of hypocrisy on this too because, you know, there's all this talk about Christian nationalism, which I do think is a

Starting point is 00:29:59 real thing. I think there are certain groups who are sort of working that out and saying, advocating maybe for something that I might be concerned about. But for the most part, it seems like if you're even conservative politically at all, you're going to be called a Christian nationalist. You're going to be, you know, called all the names, right? And yet it seems to me that there's a lot of hypocrisy because you have progressive churches that will bring politicians in as long as they're liberal politicians, Democrat politicians, to advocate for particular policies. And so, yeah, it's one of those conversations that's very interesting. Another, thing that came out in that research was that progressive Christians actually feel more affinity with

Starting point is 00:30:41 and more affection for people of other worldviews like Buddhists, Muslims, even atheists, than they do conservative Christians. The conservative Christians were very much the other in their mindset. And I think that's, those are things I think we've all observed. It's not like it's a bombshell or anything, but it is interesting that real sociological research has borne that out. All right, no one wants to think about being debanked, cut off from your financial institution, your credit card carrier, because of what you believe in. But I can't say that that's never going to happen. In fact, we know some people that that has happened to because of their values, what they represent, their businesses have been cut off from their trusted financial institutions. And what a headache. What a nightmare that

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Starting point is 00:32:19 I think understanding critical theory is really helpful. It was really helpful for me in understanding deconstruction and so-called progressive Christianity because in 20, when we were talking so much about queer theory and especially critical race theory, I realized, like, in reading their own material, not just their commentary on their material, but that this really is its separate worldview. It's not a tool by which you can understand the world and Christianity and the Bible. It's its separate worldview because it has its own view of good and evil, of what sin versus righteousness is, what human nature is, where we come from, where the rules of nature. come from, right and wrong, true and false. It has its own salvation theory. I mean, if you look at like the theology of James Cohn, liberation theology, it's got its own view of what redemption is, what sacrifice is, even what Jesus's death and resurrection really represented. They see it more as a metaphor of liberation. And then its own ascotology even. Like they have this, utopia that they, you know, that they imagine will happen once we, once we've been liberated

Starting point is 00:33:43 by the, you know, from the hegemony, theological hegemony, the political hegemony, which they see at the helm of that is like the white, straight male Christian. And so that's why, like, it really goes hand in hand. And they're not, I don't think, as concerned about like the new heaven and the new earth and sharing the gospel as they are. releasing people from political oppression, which then will advance the kingdom here on earth. That's what they see. They think that the kingdom will be political, that they will be able to usher it in through progressive policy and progressive ideology, which is really just to tear down all institutions and all definitions and all parameters and all boundaries, once everyone is a global kind of communistic, citizen, then we will have heaven here on earth. It's its own theology. It's its own world deal. And that's why I think they are intertwined. I don't even know if deconstructionists realize that. But that's, I think,

Starting point is 00:34:50 why they end up going the path that they do. Well, it's interesting you would say that because I, sometimes I think I'm kind of naive. You know, when I first got out of that progressive church, I mean, this was like 14 years ago, I didn't, all of my progressive friends that were sort of embracing gay marriage, for example. I didn't dream that they would also embrace the trans ideology, but that happened very quickly. In fact, the church that I left within weeks of their sort of rebranded. So a few years after I left the church, they rebranded themselves as a progressive Christian community became LGBTQ, you know, affirming. You knew I'm so thankful for the Holy Spirit, just giving you discernment. Me too. Well, and I'm thankful for my husband because I was staying in that

Starting point is 00:35:35 class because people were baby Christians. And I was, before my faith really became unraveled, I was trying to refute the pastor for the baby Christians in the class. But my husband was like, we're done. We're leaving. And I was like, I'm so thankful for that. But yeah, I was so surprised when they, within weeks of that, had makeup classes for trans people that needed to learn how to put on makeup. And I'm going. 14 years ago. This well, this would have been maybe, well, 14 years ago was when my faith crisis happens. This would have been more like six years ago. Okay. Seven years ago when they rebranded. So it was a long time after I left that they actually but still admitted what they were. But yeah. So they were doing that. And then I'm seeing even progressive Christians that I'm

Starting point is 00:36:18 thinking there's no way they'll go anti-Israel. And then I'm seeing Queers for Palestine on their pages that I'm I think I'm just eternally naive, but you're right. It's because it's a whole worldview. I think back in 2020 when a lot of evangelicals thought that we were just talking. about race and they didn't realize that the critical theories, that critical race theory is just one strand of the critical race, you know, carpet or whatever you want to call it. It's like just one little part of it that's all interconnected and intertwined with all sorts of different identity categories like age, ability, gender, all of that stuff. And I don't think they realized that when they were kind of leaning into critical theory when it just comes to race, you can't

Starting point is 00:36:59 leave it at just race, which is why we are now seeing LGBTQ ideology come in because you can't have critical race theory without critical queer theory and without all of the other critical theories that are all sort of held together intention in the suppressed versus oppressor narrative. Yeah. And it is a worldview based on shifting power dynamics or perceived power dynamics because they see like the white straight Christian male is having, you mentioned intersectionality, the top of the intersectional totem poles of having all the power and they claim to want to shift the power to the oppressed and the marginalized, which is everyone else to a varying degree. And they do see that as part of a Christian Christ-like mission. While simultaneously, I mean, that is like a political

Starting point is 00:37:50 revolution we're talking about, but simultaneously, as you said, saying that Christian conservatives are the ones who just by saying something like, well, you know, all people are made in God's image, so I'm not going to be for abortion. And I'm going to be for protecting the dignity of unborn children, yes, of course, even in the law. They see that as an example of Christian nationalism and fascism and theocracy, but not their own political agenda. And I've heard this term empire. Have you heard that? Used empire for the description. Oh, yeah, geologically, to kind of shame conservative Christians because they're for the empire. Yeah. Yeah. I'm not exactly sure what that means, except for I think it's just claiming that basically all Christians that

Starting point is 00:38:37 allow our politics to flow out of our biblical worldview are trying to build power for ourselves. Yeah. That we are trying to build some kind of theocratic empire. But when they allow their worldview to dictate how they vote, the curriculum, the policies that are implemented, it's apparently not about power for them, even though their ideology right now is the one that is leading to consequence. like kids being taken out of their parents' custody because they think they're the opposite sex and their parents won't go along with it. I mean, talk about power. Well, and in my view,

Starting point is 00:39:12 the most oppressive policies. I mean, if you think about the two greatest humanitarian crises right now, which is abortion and transing kids, you know, transitioning kids, and you're thinking, how is that not oppressive? Right. No, they actually see it as liberating because when autonomy and authenticity, those are the highest two values of the God of self. And those two things can be good when they are in submissive, in submission to the God of Scripture. But when they're your highest values, autonomy, you use that to justify anything, even the sacrifice of your own child. When authenticity is your highest value, you use that to justify anything, even switching your gender because you're just being authentic. You're just exercising your bodily autonomy. Both of those

Starting point is 00:39:57 things can't be good when they're in submission to God's law. But when they're only in submission to what you want, they justify all kinds of atrocities. So they actually see abortion and gender ideology as liberating you. Reproductive rights is what it's been rebranded us. Yes, absolutely. Last sponsor for the day is My Patriot Supply. So as we talk about a lot, we just don't know what to expect. We don't know what's coming up. You want to make sure that you have an emergency food supply for you and your family. Hopefully you'll never have to use it, but if you need it, you will be so glad that you have it. The emergency food kits from My Patriot Supply are good in storage for up to 25 years. So again, maybe you'll never have to access it. But should there come a time

Starting point is 00:40:45 when you need to access emergency food supply, you will be so glad you made this purchase from My Patriot Supply. It gives you so much peace of mind to know that you've got these three-month emergency food kits that include over 2,000 calories. a day meals. Get one food kit for every member of your family. Go to prepare withally.com. Save $200 per kit, free shipping too. Preparewithallie.com. How can someone spot if they are in a church or they're talking with a friend? How can they spot the kinds of, I don't know, signifiers of deconstruction that maybe my church, maybe my friend, maybe my family member is going in the wrong direction. That's a good question. And it's really important to understand the nature of what's

Starting point is 00:41:36 happening to your friend or your loved one because a lot of Christians think, oh, they'll talk to me if they're in deconstruction, they'll tell me, and then we can just have these great conversations. But what you have to realize is that if somebody's in real deconstruction, as it's manifesting in culture and how it's connected to its postmodern roots, they're probably not talking to you about it. That's why, like a kid comes home from camp and maybe they read one of those well-meaning books and they say, oh, I'm deconstructing. A great first question is, well, what do you mean by that? Because they might just think that means making my faith my own, asking hard questions, engaging my doubts, which, of course, we would all say that's all good and healthy to do. But true deconstruction,

Starting point is 00:42:13 as we see it manifesting, is it's a worldview, right? It's really built upon those critical theories. And so they've already seen you as the toxic person, the unsafe person. So the impetus for the person in deconstruction to disconnect from their church family. And sadly, sometimes their biological families is very strong. I mean, Ali, night after night after night, I meet parents who come to me with tears in their eyes, sometimes two or three couples who say, my adult child has deconstructed. I don't know what happened. They tell me I'm toxic and they're not talking to me. Some have even received no contact letters. And so it's really important to understand the nature of what's happening to your loved ones. So the signs are

Starting point is 00:42:55 going to look for is this is a very social media driven. I believe it's a social contagion, just like the kind of the increase of transitioning that's affecting young girls primarily now. It's very social media driven. So taking a look at the social media is always a good place to start to see if there are signs of that. But you're going to be looking for people talking about the Bible, like as if it's not the word of God. Like, well, it's just, you know, a human book about God, not a divine book written for humans. So that's going to be a sign, maybe a drift more into those critical theories is a sign. There can be so many different signs, but just look for the basic theology of the gospel. If that's being undermined, if the sin and redemption story is being

Starting point is 00:43:42 replaced with a social justice story, if there's wavering on marriage and sexual ethics, these are all things you're going to be looking for in that movement. But, you know, I know this word is so overused now, but wokeness is sort of the driving force, and that's the critical theories, but the kind of the wokeness that we see in the wild now, be looking for those things, but the how of how to navigate those relationships, I wish that we could just give a formula in the book and say, just do these, you know, A, B, and C, and it'll all be fine. But we really say every deconstruction story is different. The triggers that caused it are different. The emphases of the person's particular journey are going to be different. The wounds are going to be

Starting point is 00:44:23 different. And so it's going to require a lot of wisdom, but thankfully the Bible promises in James to give us wisdom when we ask for it. And so the general advice that we give to people is that if you have someone in your life who's in deconstruction and there's tension in that relationship, it's kind of like triage. You know, when you go to the emergency room and there's a big accident and all these people start coming in and the doctors do triage, they figure out what's the most urgent need that needs to be treated first. And so that's something we have to do too. in some cases, just trying to maintain that relationship is the most urgent need. Maybe that's not the time to try to fix the theology. I know this is counterintuitive for us as Christians because we want to

Starting point is 00:45:03 fix the theology over coffee, but to maybe back off a little bit with that. And the most urgent need might just be to maintain that relationship or keep that relationship as best you can. And maybe you won't be able to. Maybe they're demanding compromise of view that you can't compromise. And so there may be a sever, you know, severed relationship for a while. But in that case, we can take that time to pray for our loved one and as best we can live the beauty of the gospel out in front of them because, Ali, I truly believe that we're sort of on this cresting wave of deconstruction, but that wave's going to crash because there's no, like you said, it's just a tearing down. There's nothing really meaningful that they're building up. It's a very dark place. In my opinion, it's a very toxic place.

Starting point is 00:45:46 It operates very cultish. There's a lot of propaganda. very like a brainwashing kind of situation that we see with the social contagion. So when people get to the bottom of that rainbow and they find out there's no pot of gold there, there's a, I'm hoping that maybe we'll have maintained those relationships so that they will come back. And that's our prayer for our loved ones is that they will have the freedom and deep abiding joy of knowing and walking with Christ because that is truly our purpose here on earth is to know God, to worship him. we were created to worship him. And when we're not living according to our purpose, we aren't going to be fully fulfilled. And I think people are going to start realizing that. And I'm praying that God will

Starting point is 00:46:30 bring a lot of people back to him, that he will bring a lot of people to him for the first time that may have grown up in church, but maybe they hadn't trusted in Christ for themselves. And so I have a lot of hope, actually, with this deconstruction. I think it's God's mercy and his sovereignty to, you know, there could be otherwise people growing up in church, liking the culture, kind of thinking they're Christians. They could die not even knowing they're not Christians. But when you deconstruct, you know you're not a Christian and then, or at least you know you're not this. And I'm praying that we'll see a lot of people come to the Lord out of this. Yeah. And God can use their story and everything that they have learned in their deconstruction for such redemptive purposes.

Starting point is 00:47:10 I think that there are, you know, when people are in church and they're maybe sensing a drift in their pastor, you know, they can listen to terms like, they can hear for terms like nuance on things that aren't nuanced, pretending that things are gray that aren't really gray, being wishy-washy on issues that are actually very clear in scripture, like marriage, like sexuality, like abortion, like heaven, like hell, like sin. Not that there's no good faith discussion to be had about these things, but when you hear the overuse of these gray terms like nuanced confusion and all of that, that's typically a good indicator that a pastor is becoming a little more political and less biblical. And as you said, like there is so much promise and hope in the assurance that God will give us wisdom and that he will keep his flock and he will keep his church and that, you know, God's work doesn't always make headlines. But God is adding to his church every day through the common faith and obedience of the everyday believer. And the other piece of good news, as you said, is like, I don't know if it was Chesterton who said this, but that truth is like a lion. You don't defend it. You let it out and allow it to defend itself. And that is like the beautiful relief that we get as Christians is that we get to tell people, go to the source. You don't have to believe me. You don't have to like me. And that is actually like a key indicator that someone is not an occult. That you're like, no, I want you to know everything. I want you to know everything. I want to.

Starting point is 00:49:01 want you to know the full truth. I want you to test it. I don't like, it would be one thing if we were like, yeah, I built this chair, but please don't sit in it. We're like, go jump on it. Sit on. Throw it against the wall. Like, I truly believe that it's well made. And that's just like, that is such the privilege that we have as Christians that we get to just point people to the God that is perfect. Okay, your book, where can people find it? How can they follow you if they don't already? Well, thanks. And I'm so grateful for your ministry, Allie. Just so grateful for your of thought and your dedication to Christ. What a great example for young women all out there. Likewise.

Starting point is 00:49:37 Just thankful for you. So the book is available everywhere. Amazon. You can go to my website, alisa Childers.com. There's also a curriculum that we just released. It's a six-week, small group study curriculum that has six videos, and then everybody gets a participant guide. You can find that on Amazon, also on Tindale.com. And I host the Elisa Childers podcast, which you've been on a time or two. And we just kind of talk long form about all of these things. every week and that's also on YouTube. So elisachilders.com to find all the places. Awesome. Thank you so much, Elisa. I really appreciate it. Oh, I loved it. Thanks.

Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 1048 | Deconstruction: Where It’s from & How to Stop It | Guest: Alisa Childers

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