Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 1074 | OBGYN Busts Myths on Miscarriages & Late-Term Abortions | Guest: Dr. Christina Francis

Starting point is 00:00:00 Dr. Christina Francis is the CEO of the American Association of Pro-Life Obstetricians and Gynaecologists, and she is here today to tell us the truth about the disinformation that we are seeing in the media, about abortions and miscarriages, what is really going on in hospitals? Is it the fault of these pro-life laws? She knows more than most about what goes into these abortion procedures, and she is going to help us separate myth from fact when it comes to these stories. This is an episode. You want to share with your friends who may be confused about pro-life laws.

Starting point is 00:00:39 They need to hear it from an expert like Dr. Francis. This episode is brought to you by CrowdHealth. Join CrowdHealth.com slash Alley. Go to join crowdhealth.com slash Alley. Dr. Francis, thanks so much for taking the time to join us. Can you tell everyone who you are and what you do? Absolutely. Thank you so much, Allie, for having me on. My name is Dr. Christina Francis. I'm a board certified OBGYN. I practice actually as an OB-Hospitalist in northeastern Indiana. And I'm also

Starting point is 00:01:20 CEO of APLog, the American Association of Pro-Life OBGYNs, where a professional medical organization with over 7,000 members across the country of medical professionals, not just OBGYNs really many specialties who practice life-affirming medicine. And would you say that in the OBGYN world, it is a minority position to be pro-life? Well, you know, that's an interesting question. I think that we might be a little bit of a silent, either majority or sort of in the middle. You know, the surveys actually tell us that 76 to 93% of OBGYNs don't perform abortion. So we know that the vast majority, majority of obies don't do abortions. I don't think that necessarily means that all of those that don't

Starting point is 00:02:09 do them are pro-life. But we know from talking to many of our members and even just colleagues of mine that there are a lot of obies out there who are actually pro-life or at least feel some level of discomfort with the idea of abortion. But with our current sort of medical practice environment, it's really difficult for people to speak up about their pro-life beliefs or their pro-life values, unfortunately. And is that why you started your organization? Because even if it's not a minority view or as minority as we are led to believe in the OBGYN world, you clearly felt like you guys needed to kind of band together and be represented. Yeah, absolutely.

Starting point is 00:02:53 Well, so our organization started actually 51 years ago in 19, The date was not coincidental. It was started actually within the American College of OBGYNs or ACOD, which is the country's largest professional organization. I'm sure that you're aware of them and they're a physician on abortion. But, you know, they used to be actually relatively neutral on the issue of abortion until the late 60s, early 70s, when the leadership started to become much more pro abortion. And they then filed pro abortion amicus briefs in both the row and the dough cases. And when they did that, many of the members within ACOG who were pro-life decided it was time to start a pro-life special interest group to show that many OBGYNs did not support this move in a pro-bortion direction. And so we were started as a special interest group and quickly became their largest special interest group and stayed that way until 2013. At that point, we had about 2,000 members. And then in 2013, ACOG dissolved the type of of special interest group completely, and which ended up being a blessing for us.

Starting point is 00:04:02 We then launched as our own separate organization and since then have more than tripled in size. And you're right. I think the reason for that is because so many OBs, especially now, see the direction, the radical pro-abortion direction that ACOG has gone to the point where they don't support any regulations, any restrictions whatsoever on abortion. they support self-managed abortions, and they actually are very hostile towards the conscience rights of those of us who are pro-life within the profession. And so it very much has become this refuge and safe haven for pro-life medical professionals. In fact, we just recently launched an emergency medicine subsection because we had ER physicians

Starting point is 00:04:46 coming to us and saying that their professional body was following ACog's lead and becoming very pro-abortion, and they felt like they needed a different professional. professional organization to represent them. Yeah, you kind of answered this, but do you feel like there is an adversarial relationship between your organization and ACOG? And what does that look like? You mentioned their hostility to conscience rights. Can you elaborate on that a little bit more? Yeah, absolutely. So that started really all the way back in 2010 when they issued their ethics statement 385 about conscientious rights. medicine and they basically said that as OBGYNs, if you wanted to be an ethical physician,

Starting point is 00:05:31 that you either had to perform or refer for abortions or if you weren't willing to do that, you had to relocate your practice to within 30 miles of someone who would, which of course is a ridiculous edict. And they then tried to tie our board certification to following those guidelines and Applog banded together with a couple other organizations and pushed back against that actually and successfully defeated that, and that's where many of our federal conscience protections came from. But since then, ACOG has just continued to become more and more radical, as I said, and more and more hostile, actually, towards pro-life OBGYNs. In fact, just, well, when I took over a CEO, so it was March of last year, we were in D.C. ready to exhibit at an ACOG conference

Starting point is 00:06:20 that we had exhibited at every year for the previous 15 years. They had accepted our application for that year, and we were in D.C. ready to exhibit. And this was a conference for medical educators within OB. So the people that are educating the next generation of OBGYN. So very important conference. We were notified the day before the conference via email that our booth literally had been canceled.

Starting point is 00:06:47 And the person emailing us was just trying to find, find out where to send our refund check to. And so we reached out to ACOG and tried to ask, you know, why are you canceling our exhibit booth? And at first, they wouldn't respond. And so we applied a little pressure through you giving some media outlets to get them on the record. And on the record, they said that we are no longer allowed to exhibit at ACOD conferences simply

Starting point is 00:07:14 because we're pro-life, that they won't allow our views to be present at their conference. So that's kind of where we're at right now with ACOG, unfortunately. And what does your exhibit typically entail? Nothing inflammatory, nothing ideological. It's simply evidence-based information about the effects of induced abortion on our patients. And honestly, a lot of our material focuses on our maternal patient because, of course, we know that the scientific evidence is, very clear that our fetal patient is in fact a patient from the moment they come into existence. And so we have information on that, but a lot of our information is actually about giving informed

Starting point is 00:08:00 consent to women who are contemplating an abortion decision, you know, so that they know the risks associated with induced abortion. That's all that we have at our exhibit booth. And apparently, evidence-based information is too scary for ACOG. I don't know. You know, I think they just don't want to allow anything to go against their their radical pro-abortion narrative right now. Do you have any idea what has made them so radical over the past 10 to 15 years? I know you mentioned in the 60s and 70s. They became more outspokenly pro-abortion, but it seems like that has sped up, like that is intensified over the past 10 to 20 years.

Starting point is 00:08:42 Do you have any idea what has gone on inside ACOG to induce that change? You know, I don't know exactly. I mean, they're definitely, they seem to be focused on having people in leadership that agree with them, especially on the issue of abortion and promoting that actually much more so than a lot of other issues that they could be talking about with women's health. But, you know, I think ACOG is following the same. sort of the same trajectory that we're seeing in a lot of medical organizations. You know, when you think about other issues that have happened, the transgender issues and, you know,

Starting point is 00:09:22 organizations are not following the evidence and going with this ideological idea. So I think similar thing has happened with ACOG and with abortion as we have seen medical schools and residencies being really infiltrated by this idea that induced abortion is essential women's health care. And so in that, then they're not allowing any talk that that goes against that narrative. And, you know, one of the things that we have tried to reach out to ACAC about, in fact, after they kicked us out of their conferences, we invited them to an open academic debate and said, hey, if you disagree with us, great. Come to a debate. Let's talk about what the evidence shows. And they refused to do that because they said that abortion is settled science. And so they refused to even debate it.

Starting point is 00:10:09 And so I think that they just are completely resistant to anything going against their narrative. They're not even willing to admit that maybe some women experience adverse mental health outcomes after induced abortion. Instead, they say nobody experiences it, which is not consistent with what not only the medical evidence shows, but what our own practice, you know, shows us. I've met with countless patients who are experiencing horrible depression, anxiety, things like that. or having abortion. But they seem to just be afraid to allow any, any, again, counter narrative to their

Starting point is 00:10:47 pro-abortion narrative into the discussion. Yeah. You know, it's a really good indicator that you're on the wrong side. If you have to rely on vagueness, euphemisms, deceit, and hiding to defend your position, they're afraid of debate, I've found. They're afraid of a conversation, just a science. based conversation about fetal development, what an abortion entails. And if abortion were really healthcare, if it were really just a decision to get your tooth pulled, basically, then they wouldn't

Starting point is 00:11:23 get so angry when you try to simply say what abortion is. Because all types of health procedures, true health procedures have some kind of adverse outcomes or risk of adverse outcomes. There is nothing that is riskless, I believe, in the medical world. So the fact that they're denying that there's even a possibility of adverse outcomes when it comes to abortion means they are not only abandoning the data that's available in relation to the specific procedure, but really like the scientific method as a whole, the entire mentality around practicing medicine, they're saying this is like the one procedure that has no risks to it whatsoever. Right. Right. Yeah, exactly. I mean, personally, I wouldn't trust anyone. If I went to a doctor and they told me anything didn't have a single risk associated with it, you probably better get up and leave that doctor's office. So completely agree. And I think I agree with you. I think that's one thing that people should be aware of to say, something might be going on here. You know, if they're not willing to admit any risks, I just got off of doing an interview on NPR and there was another OBGYN on who, uh, has a very different position than I do on abortion. And when I tried to bring up that there's 160 studies that show a link between surgical abortion and preterm birth and future pregnancies and that there are numerous

Starting point is 00:12:48 studies that show an increased risk of adverse health outcome or mental health outcomes, including a seven times increased risk of suicide. She said there are no studies that show any of that. You can't even admit that there are a few studies. We might disagree on where the majority of the studies lie, but to say that there's not a single study is just disingenuous. And, you know, I think it's really important, as you said, that we have honest conversations about this.

Starting point is 00:13:14 And even people that are on the other side of the abortion issue from you and I, at the very least should care about women receiving fully informed consent before they make any kind of decision. And that includes knowing all the potential risk so that they can make an informed decision. And we know that women simply are not getting the. that not only from ACACAD, but from, you know, abortion providers when they go into abortion facilities. First sponsor for the day is Alliance Defending Freedom. I talk a lot about Jack Phillips and other Christians like him who have taken a hit who have been absolutely attacked with lawfare for years because they stood strong on what they believed about things like biblical

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Starting point is 00:14:48 And you know, you mentioned conscience rights a few minutes ago and I'm reminded of what's in the Equality Act. From my understanding, it would really override the conscience rights of many doctors who don't want to perform abortions, basically saying that if you don't want to perform abortions, then you can't be an OBGYN. I'm not sure if you have insight into the Equality Act and what that would mean. for you all. Of course, it hasn't passed Congress, but it's a possibility they're going to keep pushing for that. Is that something that your organization has looked into? Yes, you're absolutely

Starting point is 00:15:22 right. So the Equality Act, as well as another bill that has been proposed by the Democrats is the Women's Health, quote unquote, women's health protection act. It actually does nothing to protect women's health. Both of those would view doctors objecting to performing or referring to, for abortion as impeding a woman's access to abortion. And so in that way, they would not allow a physician to refuse to perform a refer. And, you know, I think in my experience and in talking to colleagues, I think sometimes people don't understand, well, if you won't do it, that's fine. Why wouldn't you just refer? Well, think about any other procedure that you would know to be harmful to either of your patients. I think it's important to point out as an OBGY and I'm taking care of two

Starting point is 00:16:09 patients, not just that woman sitting in front of me, but I'm also taking care of her unborn child. So, you know, I know that an induced abortion is going to violently end the life of that child, but I also know that that induced abortion is going to potentially carry all of these risks to my maternal patient as well. So I can't in good conscience even refer my patient to a physician who I know is going to do a harmful procedure. I wouldn't do that in any other situation. And I certainly wouldn't do it for induced abortion. And, you know, when we look at contents rights, it's not enough for us to just have religious protection in this country because there are people, physicians, there are people in our organization who aren't opposed to abortion based on any religious grounds.

Starting point is 00:16:58 They're opposed to abortion because it ends the life, intentionally ends the life of a human being and because as a physician, they've taken an oath not to do that. And so having explicit conscience protections are extremely important. But, you know, Allie, to go back to this kind of links with that previous question that you asked, this wasn't necessarily specific to ACOG, but there was an article that came out, I believe it was in 2017, from Ezekiel Emanuel, who was one of the architects of the Affordable Care Act or Obamacare, who also has been a very vocal proponent of physician-assisted suicide or euthanasia. And it was an article about conscientious objection. and how it's different for physician, their position was that it's different for physicians than it

Starting point is 00:17:45 is for, say, people in the military because we are not conscripted into being physicians, but we have freely chosen to go into this profession. And so their position was that because we have chosen to go into this profession, we should not have the right to abstain from any procedure or, quote, unquote treatment that has been deemed as standard of care in the medical profession. And they used ACOG as an example of an organization that is doing it right in their opinion as far as discouraging conscience, conscience rights. And they actually said at the end of the article that if someone had an objection to a procedure that was standard of care, such as abortion, that they should either consider going into a field like radiology or getting out of the profession

Starting point is 00:18:34 altogether. So these are our quote-unquote thought leaders in medicine. I mean, that is frightening, if you think about that. And so that's why I think it's so important that organizations like Ablog exist to continue to defend our right to practice life-affirming medicine that we know our patients actually want. Yeah. I mean, it just seems so obvious to me that I would want a doctor who sees the innate dignity of my baby, not one who decides whether or not they care about my baby based on whether I want him or her, but based on the fact that this is a human being, it seems to me like I and my baby would get better in more compassionate care. But of course, they are asking doctors, demanding doctors live in this very dissonant, duplicitous world,

Starting point is 00:19:19 where on the one hand, you care for babies when the baby is wanted. But if the baby is not wanted, all of a sudden, it's only a fetus. And it has no rights and has no value. And that guy, some people can live in that hypocritical world. A lot of people do. But those who don't want to are being punished. And that's very scary. There's so much disinformation out there. As you know, I'm sure it just bothers you so much as an OBGYN, who knows the medicine, who knows the science better than most people behind what goes on in the womb, what goes on in an abortion. There was recently a story about a young woman in Georgia named Amber Thurman. And she was a mother of a six-year-old boy, but she had gotten pregnant with twins.

Starting point is 00:20:05 And she went to North Carolina to get an abortion because it was after the point where it was legal in Georgia. And she missed her appointment so they gave her some abortion pills. While she went to the ER with heavy bleeding and signs of an infection, and basically they gave her antibiotics and a DNC. way too late and she ended up dying, which is tragic all around. We've got three people who died unnecessarily in this situation. Kamala Harris, the media activists are all telling us this is because of Georgia's abortion ban. This is because of pro-life laws. Can you break down this story for us, how you are seeing this as an OBGYN and help us sift through the myths versus the facts? Absolutely. You know, I agree with you. This is such a

Starting point is 00:20:55 a tragic situation and it's one that could have been avoided sort of in many steps along the path. So just to sort of tell your listeners how I look at it as an OB and granted, I have not seen Ms. Thurman's actual medical record. So my analysis of this is based on what was published in the article that came out last week about her death. But they actually gave quite a few details. And so I think that we can actually draw very different conclusions than what the media and politicians are drawing from that. So as you said, she found herself in a situation where she wasn't ready to be pregnant, which I know that so many women do. And out of desperation, I'm sure she drove to North Carolina. One of the first things that stood out to me actually was that she had planned on a surgical abortion.

Starting point is 00:21:45 As you said, she was pregnant with twins, which would increase her risk, some of complications from abortion drugs. But because she got delayed by traffic, it said that the abortion facility could not hold her appointment for longer than 15 minutes. And so instead, a clinic employee offered her the abortion drugs. To me, that was the first red flag. Where was the physician? Where was the person who could truly give her informed consent about the risks of those drugs? And so she took the first pill Miphypristone there, it sounds like, and then drove home to Georgia and took the second pill, mesoprostol, which would put her into labor then.

Starting point is 00:22:24 And then over several days, it sounds like she suffered at home from horrible pain, bleeding, and then began vomiting blood, and then went into her emergency room. And again, from what's reported, when she presented, she had heavy bleeding, she had a foul-smelling discharge, an ultrasound showed that there were still fetal tissue inside of her uterus, so she had not passed everything. she hadn't passed all of the babies and she hadn't passed all of the placenta. And it said that she had dangerously low blood pressure and an elevated white blood cell count, which tells a physician that she's got an infection, most likely a bacterial infection.

Starting point is 00:23:04 And the low blood pressure would be a potential sign of early sepsis. And so, you know, we said in our response to this on social media, a first-year OB resident should have been able to make that diagnosis, especially if they knew that she had taken those abortion drugs. The standard of care for her treatment in that situation would be immediate initiation of IV antibiotics and a DNC procedure, dilation and curatage, where it's a surgical procedure to empty the uterus of what is left in there. That's the only way that you can get an infection like this under control. You cannot control it with antibiotics alone.

Starting point is 00:23:42 And again, every competent OBGYN should know that. It's, as you said, it's being blamed on Georgia's law that that DNC was not done immediately. However, there's a few important things to point out. One, it sounds like the doctors who took care of her are not actually blaming Georgia's law. The panel of medical experts that determined that her death was preventable, which I agree with 100%, and due to the delay in the DNC, also agree with that. They aren't saying that it was Georgia's law that led to the delay. They haven't said what led to the delay.

Starting point is 00:24:15 ProPublica, though, the media and politicians are the one that's saying it's due to Georgia's law. But also, Georgia's law would not have applied to Amber Thurman for two reasons. First of all, again, per what we have available in the article, her babies were not alive when she presented to the emergency room. And Georgia's law clearly states that it does not apply in situations where a fetal demise or the babies have already passed has already happened. Second of all, that septic incomplete abortion, which would have been the diagnosis that she should have been given, that is a life-threatening infection. George's law has clear medical exceptions when women are facing life-threatening complications that the doctors could have intervened immediately. So we need to be pointing fingers at the right things.

Starting point is 00:25:03 We need to be pointing fingers at these abortion drugs, which we know cause these kind of complications. Infection is the leading cause of death from the abortion drug, Miphyprist. And in fact, over 30 women have died in the U.S. now since that we know of since taking these drugs. And again, the vast majority of them are due to infection. Also, I think we need to be pointing fingers that, you know, somebody should be doing an investigation into what happened when she went into the hospital. Why did these physicians delay care? I don't know.

Starting point is 00:25:34 But an investigation needs to be done and should be done in order to bring justice to her family. but I just think that these stories, Ambers and the other story that we heard of Candy Miller last week, highlight the dangers of this drug that now because of what the FDA has done in removing any in-person visit requirement, now these drugs can be obtained online with no evaluation for how far along a woman is in her pregnancy, no evaluation for an ectopic pregnancy, which is life-threatening, no evaluation for coercion. Is she being pressured into this abortion? It really is medical malpractice the way that these drugs. are being used. And it is dangerous for women that politicians and the media are trying to blame

Starting point is 00:26:15 abortions, or I'm sorry, Georgia's abortion law instead of putting the blame where it belongs, which is on these drugs. Second sponsor for the day is Every Life. Every Life is also going to be a share of the arrows this weekend. We're so thankful for that. They are the only pro-life diaper company. You'd think all diaper companies would be pro-life. Unfortunately, that's just not true. Every Life ensures that all of their dollars are going to supporting families, whether they are families that are their own employees or moms in need. They're buy-for-a-cause bundle, donates items like diapers and wipes to pregnancy resource centers.

Starting point is 00:26:57 And also, their products are just amazing. We use EveryLife wipes and diapers in our home, and we love them, never have to worry about leaks or anything like that. And plus, they're made with all really good ingredients. Go to Everylife.com. Use promo code Alley 10 for 10% off EveryLife.com code Alley 10. You mentioned Candy Miller. We haven't talked about her yet on our show, but this was also a story that was published by ProPublica. And the title is Afraid to Seek Care amid Georgia's abortion ban. She stayed at home and died. So she found out that she was pregnant in 2022.

Starting point is 00:27:36 She didn't want to be pregnant anymore. She took abortion pills by male. And she became bedridden and in pain for days after. And then on November 12th, her husband found her unresponsive in bed. After she died, an autopsy found unexpelt fetal tissue confirming that the abortion had not fully completed. It also found a lethal combination of painkillers, including the dangerous opioid fentanyl. Her family later told a coroner she hadn't visited a doctor due to the current legislation on pregnancies and abortions. but it's it's not really the laws that killed her. It's these abortion pills that are allowed to be taken without the direction of a doctor,

Starting point is 00:28:19 which of course, as you mentioned, the abortion lobby, including ACOG, has really pushed hard for. Yeah, absolutely. There, you know, there's so many sort of tragic parts of this story and points at which if she had just seen a physician, maybe something would have turned out differently. So you're exactly right. You know, the FDA in 2021, as I said, removed that in-person dispensing requirement for Mipipristone, allowing these drugs to be dispensed online.

Starting point is 00:28:51 And I think many people think that, oh, well, that means that a woman still at least has a telehealth appointment with a physician who evaluates her before she gets these drugs. That's simply not true. Many of these sites women can just go on and fill out a form and then they get the drugs shipped to them. it says that she got hers from aid access, which sends these pills from another country. There's no control over what might be in those drugs.

Starting point is 00:29:16 And of course, they tragically end the life of her unborn child, which is the, you know, the first thing that's wrong with this scenario. But also, what kind of care is that for a woman? What kind of medical care? And, you know, the story says that she either thought or had been told, that's not very clear that she could not have a pregnancy because of some medical. conditions, significant ones like lupus and high blood pressure and diabetes, those things oftentimes can be actually successfully managed through pregnancy. So why did she, why was she not told

Starting point is 00:29:50 her? Why didn't she see a high risk obstetrician who could have talked to her about the risks of pregnancy with her specific conditions? But also, why is she allowed to get these drugs online with no medical supervision when she has that many high risk medical conditions? This is not appropriate care for women. In fact, it is, I would say, frank, medical malpractice. And then it says that she stayed at home and didn't seek attention after, I think the story says she, her son heard her moaning in pain in her bed. You know, many times, I'm sure you've heard this as well. We know that women are told, oh, this is, they're as safest Tylenol. It's just going to be like a heavy period. That's it. That is not what I have had women tell me who have been.

Starting point is 00:30:37 through a chemical abortion. And that's certainly not what it sounded like from the story of what Candy went through. And then, you know, I would say that Candy's death in particular is a direct example of how the lies and misinformation that are being spread about these laws led directly to someone's death. Somehow Candy had heard that either she wasn't going to be able to get the treatment that she needed because she had started the abortion process or, or that maybe she was afraid that she might be prosecuted because of having taken these abortion drugs when, in fact, Georgia's law and no other pro-life law in the country criminalizes women for, you know, starting the abortion process. And so she was afraid to go in because of lies

Starting point is 00:31:25 that had been told to her, maybe through the media, maybe through somebody else. And so she didn't go in and seek care. And she died at home. And whether or not she died as a direct, complication of the abortion drugs. I mean, as you said, they said the coroner's report said that she had an incomplete abortion. So we know that she at least had that complication. And it also said that she had fentanyl in her system. Maybe it was the fentanyl that led to her death, but that still should raise questions. Why was she taking fentanyl to get rid of this intense pain that she was in? If she had an actual patient physician relationship, which is what the, you know, the pro-abortion side is always crying. We have to keep the government out of the patient physician relationship.

Starting point is 00:32:11 Where was her patient physician relationship when she got these drugs online? That's what I want to know. And if she had one, she would have had a doctor that she could go to to say, you know, I'm experiencing really intense pain. I don't know if this is normal or if it is. Can I at least have some medication to help with that? Instead, she took a very dangerous drug that could have led to her death. But again, the thing that started this entire cascade of events were those abortion drugs. It was not Georgia's law. Yeah. You raise a really good point about the disinformation campaign that we've seen that has stoked a lot of fear, a lot of paranoia among, I assume hospital, you know, the hospital staff, doctors and nurses, but also among women. It's not the fault of this pro-life law.

Starting point is 00:33:02 It's that unfortunately she had been told by activists, by politicians, that if you get an abortion in the state of Georgia, you will go to jail. And maybe she sincerely believed that. But all of this is the fault, as you said, of the abortion lobby, who has pushed so hard for, who has pushed so hard for these mail order abortion pills, who actively lobbies against true informed. consent and as you said, true care for these moms and their babies. Something that we hear so often is that, well, you know, these pro-choice laws or that the pro-choice legislation, legislation that would allow access to abortion, even if it's through all nine months, what we're trying to protect is a woman's right to access miscarriage care. This is something I've seen since the overturning of Roe v. Wade over and over again. And even pro-lifers get duped by this, that you have to be pro-choice, you have to be against pro-life law legislation if you

Starting point is 00:34:13 want women to be able to access miscarriage care. There are people who truly believe that a DNC after a miscarriage is the same thing as a DNC during abortion and that pro-life states, like Arkansas or Texas or Georgia, have outlawed DNC's. in the case of even spontaneous miscarriages. So can you speak to that at all? There's a lot of confusion there. Yeah, absolutely. I completely agree.

Starting point is 00:34:44 And I think that this is really nefarious on the part of the abortion lobby. You know, their true goal is to have elective-induced abortion with no restrictions whatsoever, but they know that that's not popular with the American people. and so they know that using fear tactics like saying that miscarriage care is under threat will work. And as you said, it has. I think there's a few different things to be said to sort of help clear up the confusion. First of all, I actually think it's harmful to women who have experienced miscarriage to equate that with an induced abortion. They are completely different.

Starting point is 00:35:22 Even the CDC defines induced abortion as a procedure or treatment given to end a pregnancy. with the intent to not produce a live birth. So they acknowledge that the intent is to end the life of that fetal human being. Of course, that's not what's going on with a miscarriage. With a miscarriage, that pre-born child has already passed away spontaneously with no interventions. And actually, the CDC definition of induced abortion explicitly says that it excludes miscarriage management, management of ectopic pregnancy, or removal of retained birth. products of conception after an induced abortion. So even the CDC understands that a miscarriage is not

Starting point is 00:36:07 the same thing as an induced abortion. Also, all of the state laws that we're talking about explicitly exclude miscarriage. They say this law does not even apply in that case. Now, I think where people get confused is yes, the same kind of procedure, a DNC procedure, can be used to treat a miscarriage or it can be used to perform an induced abortion. But DNCs in and of themselves are not outlawed anywhere in the country. The only thing that is outlawed in pro-life states are DNCs with the intent to end the life of an unborn child who is living at the time of the procedure. And so that is very, very important for people to understand. Doctors like me can still do miscarriage treatment, whatever kind of miscarriage treatment we need to do for our patients in every state in the

Starting point is 00:36:59 country without delay, we don't have to fear being penalized by the law. And women should not fear going to seek treatment for any of these conditions at any hospital and any state in this country. And another way that I know that, you know, before the Dobbs decision, doctors inherently understood the difference between an induced abortion, which is what is outlawed in some of the same. some states and miscarriage treatment, ectopic treatment, et cetera, is that there were three surveys done in the few years before Dobbs that asked OBGYNs whether or not they performed induced abortions either as part of their practice or in the last year. Of those three surveys, all of them showed that the vast majority of OBs did not do induced abortions. 76 to 93% said they did not do

Starting point is 00:37:49 induced abortions. I guarantee you that 100% or nearly 100% of them were treating miscarriage. They were treating it topic pregnancy, et cetera. They understood. They didn't have to be explained. They just were asked, do you do induced abortions? And the vast majority of them said no. They understood. The only confusion that is being created right now after Roe was overturned and the state laws went into effect is because of intentional lies and misinformation that are being spread, as you said, by the abortion lobby, by media, and by politicians that are leading to very real world consequences for our patients. And I think they're leading to, as you said, many people who would consider themselves pro-life voting for some of these radical pro-abortion ballot initiatives,

Starting point is 00:38:37 constitutional amendments that we're seeing in states. And so it's very important for people to understand, not only so that they can seek appropriate care, but also before they go to the ballot box this year if they're a state that has one of these ballot initiatives on their ballot this year. Next sponsor is Focus on the Family with Jim Daily. This is a podcast that comes out every week. You're probably familiar with Focus on the Family. If you're like me, you grew up listening to it, maybe in the mornings on the way to school with your parents. My parents loved Christian radio. We listened to Focus on the Family. It was encouraging then. It's still encouraging now. They have been in the business of educating parents on how to back.

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Starting point is 00:40:07 They had to get to a certain level before the doctor decided, okay, we're going to treat this ectopic pregnancy or we're going to treat this miscarriage. If that is really happening, do you think that there are doctors and nurses legitimately confused and afraid, or do you think there's something more sinister going on? You know, I've thought a lot about that question, actually, because, you know, as a physician who cares so deeply about my patients, even if I was legitimately facing potential legal penalty for intervening and treating a patient in front of me who needed treatment, honestly, my oath, my care for my patients would compel me to care for that patient. regardless. So it's very, very difficult for me to understand why someone would withhold treatment

Starting point is 00:40:58 when it's clearly indicated. I think that it is likely a combination of a number of factors. I think that there are a lot of physicians who just in the past before Roe was overturned, honestly, didn't even really have to put much thought into this issue. And now that they do, because the national conversation is different and our laws and our states are now, now different, I think that they are confused and they're relying, they rely appropriately on the medical bodies, on their hospital attorneys, on their state medical boards and medical associations to provide appropriate guidance about every law that impacts our practice of medicine, including these pro-life laws. And unfortunately, what we're seeing is a conspicuous silence on

Starting point is 00:41:45 the part of organizations like ACOG. They don't have to agree with these state laws, but they should have a vested interest in ensuring that physicians know that they can intervene in order, you know, quickly in order to prevent tragedies like what we've heard this past week from happening. And yet they're not. They're completely silent. APOG is really the only professional organization who is stepping into that gap and providing education to ensure that physicians intervene immediately because no state law requires immediacy. No state law requires that a woman be actively dying before a federal.

Starting point is 00:42:20 physician intervene. They can intervene immediately when they make a diagnosis that this could be life-threatening if we let it progress. And so it's important that physicians understand that. So I do think that the vast majority of physicians who report confusion probably are confused, but because of misinformation that they've heard or just because of a complete lack of information. And I think it's important for people to remember physicians are people just like everybody else. We watch the news. We're on social media, all of that. And so, you know, physicians can be influenced by these lies just the same as anyone else. There have definitely been some reports that certainly make you wonder if people are intentionally withholding treatment. I would hope not. We took an oath

Starting point is 00:43:04 to take care of our patients and that is what we must do as physicians. And so if that is happening, that needs to stop immediately. And I also worry that maybe there are cases. of medical negligence. Just frank, you know, physicians make mistakes. Sometimes they don't intervene when they need to intervene, even outside of the context of, you know, whether or not this is impacted by abortion laws. And now there's an easy scapegoat of pro-life laws

Starting point is 00:43:32 in states where this is happening. And so I think it's probably a combination of all of those things. You know, the one thing that we can do as an organization to impact that, again, is education, and helping physicians to understand that, look, this is the way so many of us, thousands of us, all of those of us who are in Aplog have practiced our entire careers. This is not impossible to practice in this way and take good care of patients and ensure that women receive the care that they need.

Starting point is 00:44:02 Yeah, I mean, doctors have always had to navigate some kinds of restrictions and regulations surrounding abortion, especially in some states. And so I just think this idea that all of a sudden they are completely, dumbfounded. They're completely confused about how to navigate laws, what the limits are. I just find that hard to believe. But I think that your point about the silence of ACOG is such a good one. Because whether or not they like these pro-life laws, they do have a responsibility to their physicians and to the physician's patients to bring as much clarity as possible. And it seems like it seems like a maliciously intentional choice to withhold that clarity and say, no, we just want more abortion.

Starting point is 00:44:47 And that's, I mean, that's a darn shame. That's what ideological capture does. Something else that we hear a lot is, well, we've got to be pro abortion because of the woman who needs an abortion, who needs an abortion to save her life or because she has some serious health issue or sometimes you hear late-term abortions only happen when there is a fetal anomaly. What's your response when you hear that? Well, so a couple things. First off, you know, there are definitely times in medicine and in the practice of OB that we have to do what what APW calls, because I think it's more accurate, a maternal fetal separation. So there are times when we need to separate mom and baby because mom is facing a life-threatening complication. Thankfully, the vast majority of the time, that happens at after the point of fetal viability where baby can survive outside of mom. So when you're after that point, there is no question.

Starting point is 00:45:45 You simply deliver mom. You either do a normal delivery or you do a C-section and you take care of mom and you take care of baby. It's important to point out that a delivery in that scenario after the point of viability when you're that far along in pregnancy is actually much faster than an abortion procedure. abortion procedures in the late second and third trimester actually takes several days. If mom is facing a life-threatening complication, she doesn't have several days. And so it is completely disingenuous. It's a lie to say that late-term abortions are needed in order to save the life of women.

Starting point is 00:46:20 We do deliveries in that situation. Even at a pre-viable point in pregnancy, we can oftentimes do a delivery that delivers mom an intact baby that the family can hold and grieve over. But again, intent is extremely important when we're looking at that because our intent in doing that early delivery is not to end the life of that child. And if medicine advances to the point that we can continue to resuscitate and support babies at earlier and earlier gestational ages, then that's exactly what we'll do. But our intent in that intervention is to save the life of mom.

Starting point is 00:46:59 And so those of us who are pro-life have no qualms doing that when it's clearly indicated. Of course, it's very sad. And you know that it's going to lead to the death of that child, but that's not your intent in the procedure. And as someone who's, you know, had to sit on the edge of my patient's bed with them and have that very difficult conversation, I can say that yes, it happens, but I can also say that we can do it in a way that respects the dignity of both mom and baby. It's also a lie to say that the vast majority of abortions done in the second and third trimester are for those conditions. We know that actually the vast majority of abortions that occur per Goopmacher, this is not per

Starting point is 00:47:41 pro-life researchers, are actually the same reasons why women seek abortions in the first trimester, which are largely socioeconomic or pressure from, you know, their family or those around them. Warren Hearn, of course, a famous late-term abortionist. in Colorado was featured in the Atlantic bragging about the fact that he does abortions on healthy women and healthy babies well into the third trimester. I think in that article, he said 34 to 35 weeks, but I recently came across a study that he had published looking at second and third trimester abortions where he reported doing abortions up to 39 weeks. That's a week before someone's due date. And again, he says the vast majority of the abortions he does,

Starting point is 00:48:27 are for healthy women and healthy babies and that he believes that women should be able to have abortions in the third trimester for any reason they want to. So people need to understand that this is happening. Even now, it was happening before the Dobbs decision and it continues to happen now. Last sponsor for the day is Patriot Mobile. They're on the front lines fighting for the First and Second Amendments, the sanctity of life, our military and first responders. This is the way that you can stand up for conservative causes, switch from those big mobile carriers that are donating your dollars to Democrat politicians, causes that you don't believe in. Put America first by switching to Patriot Mobile.

Starting point is 00:49:15 Their 100% U.S.-based customer service team will find the best plan for your needs. You can keep your number, keep your phone, or you can even upgrade. Go to Patriotmobile.com slash Alley. You can get a free month when you use offer code Alley. Patriot mobile.com slash alley code alley. I think people just don't want to reckon with that reality because it's so barbaric and it's just so sad. But you're right. And the idea that women have to have abortions when there is a fetal anomaly or that it's,

Starting point is 00:49:51 I've heard very often for the media that it's cruel to allow a baby with, say, Trisomy 18 or Trisomy 13 to be born at 36. weeks or whenever he or she needs to be delivered, that the more merciful option is to abort that child. But again, I mean, you're looking at a procedure that is much riskier for the mom if it's post 20 weeks and takes a long time and also disregards the dignity of that child. I mean, that child can be delivered and held and loved and buried, but an abortion of a child with some kind of fetal anomaly, they don't get that honor. Yeah, exactly. Well, you know, there's so many, there's so many things that are wrong with how this is portrayed, I think, to the public and to women in this particular situation. You know, first off, people hear, oh, a lethal fetal anomaly or or some version of that. I like saying a life limiting prenatal diagnosis because it may limit the life of that child, but it doesn't mean that that child doesn't have a life. But also it's important for people to know that there's actually no consensus with this. in the medical community of what qualifies for a life limiting diagnosis.

Starting point is 00:51:06 So there are some conditions that there's a 40 to 50% survival rate for babies that are considered life limiting or lethal diagnoses. So there is a definite chance with many of these conditions that baby can survive. And even with treatment have several years on this earth. Of course, who are we to judge someone's quality of life? You know, as you said, we need to respect the dignity of all life. regardless of their level of ability. The other thing that this ignores is that we could be wrong about the diagnosis.

Starting point is 00:51:39 And if we intervene as physicians and, you know, violently end the life of that child, who, by the way, can feel pain from that abortion is not feeling pain from their disability if they have one. But if we intervene prematurely, we get rid of the possibility that we could be wrong about that diagnosis. What if that child doesn't have that diagnosis? and they could actually survive. The other thing that that ignores is the real benefit of something called perinatal palliative care or perinatal hospice.

Starting point is 00:52:10 This is a loving and compassionate option for families whose child has been given a diagnosis that we expect to be severely life limiting, where their child is valued throughout the pregnancy, where they can come up with a delivery plan, where they can have the time that mom is pregnant with that baby is the only time sometimes, on the condition that that family is going to have with their child. And so it helps maximize the value in that for that family and give them all the support that they need so that they can walk through the natural grieving process rather than cutting it short and rather than feeling agency in their own child's death. You know, I can tell you from talking to a patient who went through an abortion for an adverse diagnosis that afterwards found out about the availability of perinatal

Starting point is 00:53:00 hospice hadn't known about that before. And she really was struggling with depression from feeling that she had participated in her child's death as opposed to her child dying of natural causes. So there's so many more benefits to offering patients perinatal palliative care or at the very least helping them understand that this is their child. We could be wrong about the diagnosis. But even if we're not, this is still their child who has dignity and worth. One last thing I'll say is we did after the Kate Cox story came out about, you know, her being pregnant with a child with trisomy 18. Appleg actually did a webinar about trisome 18 and actually how many of these children can live

Starting point is 00:53:44 even into their teens, early 20s, with appropriate medical care. Shocker, if we give these children medical care, they actually survive a decent portion of the time. But one of the best parts about that webinar was we had a family on with. us with their daughter, Hope, who is in her teens. And it was just so amazing to see them interact with her. She got on with us and she interacted with us. And I loved one thing that they said was that our daughter is not a fetus and she's not a diagnosis. She's our daughter. And they wanted people to understand that and understand her value and understand that with appropriate treatment,

Starting point is 00:54:22 many of these children can actually survive and bring so much joy to their families. So, you know, to me, that's the kind of care that women and families deserve. They don't deserve to be told, oh, all we have to offer you is either an abortion or there's nothing else we can do for you. That's not a choice and it's not compassion. Dr. Francis, thank you so much. Thank you for the work that you do and how you lead this organization, for the clarity that you are trying to give physicians to help moms and babies because we want to create a culture

Starting point is 00:54:53 of life. And you guys are helping make that possible. and I just appreciate you so much. Where can people find out more about you, your organization, how can they get involved? Yeah, absolutely. And thank you, Allie, so much for what you do to defend women and children and promote that culture of life. That is so important. If people want to find out more about Applog, first of all, if you're a medical professional

Starting point is 00:55:16 and you're listening to this, you don't have to be an OBGYN. We welcome you to join us. You can go to our website. That's AAPLog.org. We also have plenty of resources on the website for the general public, including a directory where you can look up whether there's a pro-life physician in your area if they've chosen to be listed publicly. And that is certainly a good resource for the public.

Starting point is 00:55:40 And then we're also on social media. You can follow us on Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn X. So we'd welcome me to follow us on that as we put out, again, accurate information about the effects of abortion on women and about what constitute actual women. Women's Healthcare. Thank you so much, Dr. Francis. Thank you so much.

Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 1074 | OBGYN Busts Myths on Miscarriages & Late-Term Abortions | Guest: Dr. Christina Francis

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