Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 1109 | Whistleblower Shares The Gruesome Truth About Trans 'Care' | Guests: Jamie Reed & Vernadette Broyles

Episode Date: December 4, 2024

Today, we sit down with Jamie Reed, the executive director of the Courage Coalition who blew the whistle on the practices inside a pediatric "transgender" center in Missouri, to discuss the shocking practices at the center where she worked. Also joining us is her attorney Vernadette Broyles, president and general counsel at Child and Parental Rights Campaign, to shed some light on the legal implications of Jamie's exposé. Jamie tells us about some of the awful practices she witnessed children being subjected to, including surgeries for minors, puberty blockers, and cross-sex hormones. She also shares how she ultimately changed her mind on "gender transition" and decided to expose the clinic. We also discuss a few tragic cases that have come out of this cultural trend of transitioning children and whether or not some recent state laws to protect children indicate a shift in the culture. Buy Allie's new book, "Toxic Empathy: How Progressives Exploit Christian Compassion": https://a.co/d/4COtBxy --- Timecodes: (01:00) Jamie Reed & Vernadette Broyles introduction (08:47) “Gender treatment” process (19:28) How Jamie changed her mind (30:01) Effects of puberty blockers (38:54) Blowing the whistle (48:48) Vernadette’s other cases (54:47) Is the culture shifting?  ---   Today's Sponsors: Good Ranchers — Go to GoodRanchers.com and use code ALLIE at checkout for $25 off your order and free meat of your choice in every box for one year. Pre-Born — Will you help rescue babies' lives? Donate by calling #250 & say keyword 'BABY' or go to Preborn.com/ALLIE. CrowdHealth — get your first 3 months for just $99/month. Use promo code 'ALLIE' when you sign up at JoinCrowdHealth.com. Jase Medical — Go to Jase.com and enter code “ALLIE” at checkout for a discount on your order. --- Links: I Thought I Was Saving Trans Kids. Now I’m Blowing the Whistle, by Jamie Reed: https://www.thefp.com/p/i-thought-i-was-saving-trans-kids Child & Parental Rights Campaign: https://www.childparentrights.org/ LGBT Courage Coalition: https://www.lgbtcourage.org/ ---   Relevant Episodes: Ep 760 | Whistleblower Exposes Horrors at Gender Clinic | Guest: Seth Dillon https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/ep-760-whistleblower-exposes-horrors-at-gender-clinic/id1359249098?i=1000601317508 Ep 848 | Saving His Child from a 'Non-Binary' Future | Guest: Harrison Tinsley https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/ep-848-saving-his-son-from-a-non-binary-future/id1359249098?i=1000623090048 Ep 1029 | Whistleblower Nurse Uncovers “Trans Kid” Medicaid Fraud | Guest: Vanessa Sivadge https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/ep-1029-whistleblower-nurse-uncovers-trans-kid-medicaid/id1359249098?i=1000660952943 Ep 1104 | DEBATE: Should ‘Trans’ Congressmen Use Women’s Bathrooms? | Guest: Brad Polumbo https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/ep-1104-debate-should-trans-congressmen-use-womens/id1359249098?i=1000677686409 ---   Buy Allie's book, You're Not Enough (& That's Okay): Escaping the Toxic Culture of Self-Love: https://alliebethstuckey.com/book Relatable merchandise – use promo code 'ALLIE10' for a discount: https://shop.blazemedia.com/collections/allie-stuckey

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That's fellowship homelones.com slash alley, term supply, see site for details, fellowship home loans, mortgage lending by the book, nationwide mortgage bankers, DBA Fellowship Home Loans, equal housing lender, NMLS, number 819382. Jamie Reed is a whistleblower from the Washington University Transgender Center at St. Louis Children's Hospital. She is speaking out about the troubling things she saw there, why she went from transgender affirming to who she is today, an advocate against child transitions. We also have Vernedette Broyles, who is the president and general counsel of the Child and Parental Rights Campaign. They are sharing Jamie's story today as well as some other cases. cases that Vernadette is working on. And wow, this is going to blow your mind and you will be

inspired by both of their courage. This episode is brought to you by our friends at Good Ranchers. Go to Good Ranchers.com. Use Code Alley. Check out that's good ranchers.com code Alley. Jamie, Vernadette, thanks so much for joining Relatable. First, Jamie, could you tell us who you are and what you do? Yes. My name is Jamie Reed. I worked in a pediatric transgender center for close to five years. I am currently the executive director of the Courage Coalition. We are a group of primarily adult gays and lesbians who are trying to stop the current practices of pediatric gender medicine and support gays and lesbians and especially those who are maybe gender nonconforming to grow up with their bodies whole and intact. And, Bernadette, you're her attorney. I am. Yes. Can you tell us a little bit about

what kind of law you practice and why you're in this. Sure. I'm the President General Counsel of the Child and Prender Rights Campaign. We are five attorneys in different parts of the country and are, we bring cases on behalf of parents whose children have been socially transitioned behind the backs of the parents, sometimes even over their objections. And we are also now more and more defending parents whose children are being threatened by child protective services.

And Jamie, let's go all the way back. to how I initially heard about you and your story, your report came out, what you saw at a gender clinic, what was happening with children. So just take us back there to the clinic, what you saw and why you do the work that you do now. So I worked in this clinic across the period of time where this really started to explode in our culture. And what years were? So I started in 2018 and I left 2023-ish. And what I saw was we were beginning with maybe four or five kids per month coming in. And when I left, we were seeing close to 60 new kids per month coming in. And the kids that were coming had radically changed. So initially, this was primarily young boys who were very feminine presenting,

whose parents were concerned. And it had radically shifted to teenage girls who were significantly mentally ill, who were all identifying as trans and wanting really rapid medical interventions. They wanted testosterone. They were talking about surgeries already. And they were 70 to 80 percent of the clients now were teenage girls. How old were they typically? Oftentimes they would come to us after puberty. So the bulk of our patients were probably 14 to 16, but the clinic did still see kids all the way as young as three. So I mean, this was a giant kind of pediatric practice.

And when I started in this clinic, I was what we would refer to as a true believer. I really believe that we were intervening early to help children identify their true authentic selves and give them a pathway towards, you know, a healthy, authentic adulthood. I was going to ask why you started working there in 2018. You just said that you were a true believer, but even so, there are a lot of people who believe that who don't feel called to get into the actual work of working at a clinic. So what led you there? So my background is in working in social work roles, but I'm not a social worker. So I've been a caseworker. I currently also now have a master's of science and clinical research. So I've always worked peripherally kind of social service in medical settings. But I was working with young people who are HIV positive. I did that for a long time. And what I was seeing was that there was this kind of growing,

cohort of young people who were identifying as trans, and there was some overlap in my patient population. But in my personal life, I was married to someone who was trans, who had medically transitioned, a woman who had transitioned to live as a male. And I also am a lesbian, and I grew up in my own childhood experiencing what some people refer to as a male. gender distress. So I was gender non-conforming. I was a tomboy. I really felt as that true believer that this was part of my community and these kids were kids that somehow reflected my experience. And so you kind of felt like this was not only just a job, but almost a calling that you're giving back to this vulnerable community. Absolutely. And when you first got there, did it feel

fulfilling like it was what you signed up for? When I first got there, I felt like it was very haphazard and chaotic. So initially, I kind of thought, well, this is just that it's so new. The center had really been only open a year, but there were just elements to it that didn't make a ton of sense. And this was in Missouri, right? This was in St. Louis, Missouri, yes. And, you know, one of the things I think we see across the nation is these centers really exploded and have just been popping up in red states in rural areas. Like just there's just been an explosion. And so for our hospital to start the center in 2017, there were just crucial elements missing. There were no protocols written. There was no real internal guidelines or mechanisms. This was a center that was started in a really well-known

hospital but was really flying by the seat of its pants and had a lot of structural issues. Yeah. And you said that when you first started, you were only there for five years, so not very long. And yet you were there to see the shift from what you said young boys. Would you say teenage boys are younger than that? No, younger. Young boys who were kind of feminine to teen girls who really wanted testosterone and even double mastectomies and things like that. going back to the beginning, I want to talk about the difference in parents of these kids, too. So going back to the beginning, what were parents saying when they were bringing their young boys in? Parents at the beginning were a lot more cautious.

There was a lot more seeking guidance. Something in the general population shifted in that period, too. these were children who primarily had not been socially transitioned by their parents at home. And they were slower and they were asked, it was more of an asking the medical establishment, should I socially transition my child? Do you believe that's the right thing to do? Please evaluate my child first. That was more of the parental kind of view. By the time I left, these kids were brought to us having been completely socially transistors. transitioned in multiple environments before they ever saw what would be called a gender specialist. These kids had been socially transitioned in school, in their families in every kind of aspect of

their lives. That had already occurred well before they ever saw, often saw any sort of mental health provider. You said that there was really a lack of protocol when you first started, but what were the typical recommendations for a young boy that was brought in whose parents thought, okay, maybe he's really a girl? I think that the phrase watchful waiting was a little bit more still in existence at the time. A lot of this is also, there isn't a medical element to this. So the original protocol, as the Dutch in the Netherlands divides this,

was that you would start a child on a pubertal blockade when they reached 10 or 2 of puberty. Yeah. And so some of... Can you explain with that? Yeah, so they tanner stage puberty into five stages. It's not necessarily directly correlational to just blood work. An endocrinologist is actually doing a physical exam of the body. So they're looking for early signs of puberty, breast budding, testicular growth. I mean, this is a body process that takes a long time. The pituitary gland, all of these glands in the brain are basically talking to our secondary sex organ. and they're telling them, you know, turn on, turn off. There's pauses, there's stops. Puberty is a, puberty, in my opinion now, is a human right,

because the body requires these steps. And the brain requires the pruning and the slowness of how puberty engages. But what we were looking for initially was, is the child in TN or stage two of puberty? And if so, then the question is, are we going to initiate a puberty blockade to block them? them and then eventually give them cross-sex hormones. And puberty blockers, if it's in a young girl who is in Tanner Stage 2, which I think

is like when you start seeing the physical outward signs of puberty that you would think like right before a girl starts her period or something like that. Even a little bit earlier than that. Oh, okay. So Tanner 2 is even earlier than right before menstruation. And so right before those things, that's when endocrinologists would say, okay, we got to block the testosterone and boys. We got to block the estrogen in girls. And how long would that process typically last? The part of this medical establishment that really shows me that it is

not a tried and true well-tested paradigm is that there were even debates over that itself. There were some endocrinologists in gender clinics who would allow kids to be puberty-blocked for a very long time. And then there were other endocrinologists that were saying, you know, that they would put in an age guideline. So I had an underchronologist I work with that would say by a certain age, we had, you had to move on to sex hormones for the body's bone growth and bone development. But again, I've even seen cases now in clinical studies where there are young people who are asking underchronologists to never be put on sex hormones and asked to remain. in a pre-pubital status ongoing. And I've even seen ethical papers argue on the other side that this is their right and they should be able to do this. The damage to the body is just immense

and. And the brain. I think a lot of people don't realize that puberty is necessary for intellectual maturation, your ability to be able to understand consequences. And there just seems to me, and we can get into this more later, but a nefarious motivation, like what kind of people would want to prolong basically eternal adolescence and young people and prevent them from being able to make wise choices and to keep their body in a state of like pre-pubescent development? That's very disturbing to me. It is. There's also this element where we've somehow put the children in charge.

were basically saying to the kids, well, what, you know, it's all, what do you want? What do you see? In the center, so much of the decision-making process was the endocrinologists were not making the decisions. They were saying that it was the mental health providers. The mental health providers were not making the decisions. They would basically say if the child says they're trans, then they're trans. And the parents were looking at both of these medical professionals saying, I'm relying on you.

And then in the end, we're in a clinical space. and the parents turned into their child and saying, well, if this is what you really want. And so we were in a position where we were basically giving the prescription pad over to children. And why do we even send doctors to medical school then if they're willing to just hand that over and let children make these decisions? Yeah. And that's such a dereliction of duty because we understand that children do not have the capacity. to make these kinds of decisions. And in every other area of children's lives, legally,

children are considered incapacitated. They're dependent upon their parents to be able to give consent to a whole variety of things, or there are many things they can't even do at all, they can't contract on their own. And so the idea that we're placing these life-changing decisions on the backs of children is to me such a violation of their basic human right

to be able to rely upon the judgment and the maturity of their parents to be able to make wise decisions on their behalf. Children don't want these decisions on their shoulders either, though. They might, especially adolescents, might say, well, I, you know, that they will vocalize things like, well, I could decide, I could figure this out. But I think part of why we see such high anxiety and depression levels in children right now is because we are putting on the their shoulders, some of these considerations that never should have been theirs to worry about. Yeah. And I think kids actually do better in environments where we as the adults say, hey, we're the adults. We got this. You can be a kid. I'm the one making the decision. And my decision

also goes. Yeah, definitely. And that's true in all different realms. Kids want boundaries and they will push and push until you say, no, it stops here. And when we're talking about mutilating your body, it would seem like in that situation, more than any other situation, there should be some adult that says no. Quick pause to tell you about our first sponsor for the day, and that is Good Ranchers. Good Ranchers has an awesome deal going on right now. If you subscribe to any box, if they're 100% American meat, you can get a free gift of salmon, bacon, ground beef, or they're better than organic chicken in every box for the next year. That is an amazing value.

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but I'm sure some who did go through with social transition and puberty blockers to parents bringing their kids in, fully affirming their newfound identity. So what changed with what the doctors recommended? Was it still telling these teen girls watch and wait? Or was it, yeah, let's sign you up for cross-sex hormones? The doctors absolutely were, let's sign you up. They really had the con, like their way that they worked was if they, the child says that they're trans and if the child says that they want what these drugs give,

then why would I stop them from doing this? Yeah. But the other thing that shifted in this period of time was there has been this huge cultural shift into this belief structure that trans is the new civil rights era, that it is gay 2.0 and that if the parents or the, if our culture didn't just imagine, immediately affirm this, that they were, you know, not being the good, liberal citizen of our country. They're being bigots. They're the same thing as racist from 50 years ago. They're unsafe. They're unsafe if they don't affirm. And that's where it really went awry. Did you see

manipulation of parents? When I've talked to, I talked to a nurse that encountered a lot of this at a hospital down, in Houston where doctors were actually illegal because it's illegal in the state of Texas, giving puberty blockers to these kids. And she saw a lot of the kind of emotional manipulation that we see from doctors who would say, you know what, if you don't let your child do this, she or he will commit suicide. Was that kind of thing going on at this clinic? Yes, but it wasn't just the doctors. So there are aspects of what, I did too that I still work through. So yes, I absolutely saw clinicians say to parents

in front of their children, if you don't agree to this, then your child is going to be at risk of committing suicide. I saw doctors say things like, would you rather have a dead daughter or a live son? But I was absolutely complicit in this. that for a number of years as well. I really believed that was the truth. And it took, you know, I wish, I wish I could say I just woke up one day and was like, duh, we can't sex change kids. It didn't work like that. It took me a long time to see the harms, see that the kids, see that the

kids weren't getting better. See that the kids were actually falling apart after we put them on these treatments. See, you know, a couple years of these kids and see that they just were not doing well. It just, it took me a long time to get to the position where I knew what I was doing was wrong. Yeah. Talk about that shift when you started to wake up. What were some of the things that caused your eyes to open? In medicine, you know, in. Even in data, I look for patterns, consistencies. I'm looking for outcomes. And so I had this really unique position in the center

because I completed the intake for every single kid that came in and I tracked every single kid as they went through. So I kind of had this bird's eye view. Whereas I think sometimes the doctors would see a kid in front of them and go, well, they're doing great. And then they wouldn't see on the back end that that kid disappeared three months later. And then I sometimes would see they disappeared, they desisted, they detransitioned, or that their mental health was deteriorating. But really, we were harming these children.

I mean, we started to see true medical harms. We had a patient who we had put on testosterone at a young age. She had one of her first sexual experiences and her vagina completely tore open and she ended up bleeding so profusely that we had to send her directly to the emergency room where they sent her directly into emergency surgery. And that is because the testosterone had deteriorated her genitalia. Correct. It had degraded the tissues so much. How old was she? I believe she was still maybe 17 when that happened, but we would have put her on testosterone

at 13 or 14. Wow. And when I said to the doctors, there's this phrase, an adverse outcome. I said this is an adverse outcome. And their response was, it's really not. We expected things like this to happen. Like they knew these treatments were so harmful that they didn't even see it as outside of what the expectation was. That was not what I signed up for.

So what would they have considered an adverse outcome if not a 17-year-old's vagina completely deteriorating because of testosterone? That's a really good question that I wish I could answer. But I actually attempted within the university to report that situation. and as an adverse outcome, and I was told not to. Wow. And so that is one instance, at least, that shocked your conscience. Yes. We had a, we also had a young woman who had a double mastectomy. Within three months, she was calling the surgeon's office saying, first, that her pronouns had shifted, that she was she again. But also she was begging to have her breasts put back on. Gosh, it just breaks my heart. And the, the surgeon wouldn't take her phone call. The surgeon didn't have the,

couldn't even call her back and address what they had done to her. They punted it off to me and our nurse. You call her back. They were trying to say, you see if this is true. And then the other thing that was so gut wrenching is that they were willing to cut her breasts off quickly with a letter. They were not willing to even do a consultation about reconstruction until she had a full psyche valve and waited an entire year. Tell me how that, right. That is not what was required to get her breast cut off. No. What was required from what you saw to get a surgery like that? So first of all, I do want to point out that the clinicians that I work with did lie to my state's legislature and say that we were not discussing surgeries with minors. We absolutely were. We were giving minors the numbers and names of surgeons who would do this as minors. I saw those clinicians say this bold face lie to the Republican legislature. And I, if you have to lie about what you are doing, you are not doing the right thing.

But really all these kids would need was at least one legal guardian to consent and a letter from a therapist. And the problem was, was these therapists are all completely captured. And we also would only send you to a therapist who would write you a letter. Right. I mean, it's a self-fulfilling loop. And it's all, I mean, this is one of the most corrupt systems I've ever seen within medicine. And these letters were standard templates that actually, didn't you help write some of them? Yes, that I helped write. That we would send them a fill in the blank. Here, here's the fill in the blank template.

Yeah. And they really had, these psychologists had no incentive to stop one of these young people. I mean, you're talking about kind of being scared of children. I've talked to detransitioners who, when they did have a therapist that was bold enough to say something. Like one D-transitioner, talked to, she said that her therapist, when she was trying to get a sign off for, you know, the hormones and the surgery and all that, she had a therapist, had the audacity to say, you know, it sounds like you actually are mad at your mom. And that's part of what's going on. And she was living, you know, she expressed anger. And the therapist said, okay, okay, signed off. And so I think that's what's happening in some cases. I think also that they're scared of the political pressure, which is 100% not an excuse at all. It's very cowardly. But that's a lot of sadly

what's going on. It's really not about, from my perspective, benefiting these young people at all. Not at all. And, you know, the longer I was there, I think I had a three-step process. Step one was I would never bring my children anywhere near this place. That does not feel good when you work in a medical center. You want, you know, as a parent, but it was never, I would never bring my kids here. Then there was this period when I thought to myself, there's no need to do this to girls. The girls, if they need to transition as adults, they can do so. They will pass as male. There's absolutely no reason why we're doing this to children. It was the boys that really, I took the longest to really understand how wrong this is. This whole concept really came out of,

idea that, you know, trans adults who wanted to pass as women didn't pass. And they, they did not, you know, as society, they didn't pass and they felt uncomfortable. And so, you know, we started doing this to kids. And I kept holding on to this little piece of like, yeah, but these, you know, like maybe the boys, maybe this is still right for the boys. And it was seeing the boys that we had actually puberty blocked and then put on cross-sex hormones, I was there long enough to see what should have been the trajectory into them doing well. Like from 10 to 15. Right.

Right. And they just weren't. They might superficially look female. They would come in and in the grossest way my endocrinologist would sometimes come out of the room and say things like, I made these beautiful breasts like he was playing God. but when I was working with these young people from that social psychological functioning part they were not even getting a GED they were not getting a driver's license they were not this like functional human being that we we want adolescents to become and part of what I started to recognize

was we had lied to them as children and we were asking them to see sit with this lie about who they were. And part of adolescence, part of the requirement of becoming an adult is this real integration of who am I? That's what we ask people to do when they become an adult. Who are you? You're separate from your family. You're separate from your parents. You're this whole being, but you're an adult now. And when we set up these kids with a lie, they could not progress through that because they fundamentally were presenting to the world and they could not reconcile this lie internally. And so they were fundamentally unable to really take those steps into adulthood. And that was what I saw when I let everything else and I was

just holding on to maybe this is right for these boys. It was that damage that I saw in these boys. Yeah. That they always would have to sit with this lie. Another pause to tell you about our next sponsor. There was this really sad Danish study that I saw the other day that shows that a year after aborting, women exhibit a 50% higher likelihood of first-time psychiatric treatments and an 87% higher likelihood of personality and behavioral disorders. The pro-abortion side would like us to think that abortion is. is just like getting a tooth extracted. There is no emotional implications for it, but that's just not true. It's ending the life of a child that you created. It's not only bad and deadly for

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This is a tax-deductible donation. It could be the difference between life and death. Go to preborn.com slash alley. Do you think that the effect of the puberty blockers on their brain and the kind of inhibition of maturation that happens through natural puberty? I mean, you are talking about basically a failure to long. in some cases, they weren't independent, they weren't happy, they weren't getting their driver's

license. Do you think that had to do with it? Yes. And what's so interesting is that this field pretended like this has been around forever and we know all the science. It's only after I leave that I start to also see papers coming out where they did not do enough of the actual, they didn't do the follow-up studies in the original protocol. And now what it looks like is we do see that IQ is affected. There's parts of the brain that pruning happens when you're in adolescence where, you know, the superfluous neuropathways are pruned down and then there's really, you know, strengthening of the neuro pathways that we need. And it does seem like, too, those things have to kind of hit in a sequential order for the brain to reach that full development. And so

we do have this whole cohort of children in this country. In this country, and globally that we performed an unauthorized medical experiment on. And I don't even think we've begun to grapple with what are the long-term effects of those experiments. And will these children and their families ever actually receive justice? And it's something important to mention, because I've heard your story many times, and I know it so well, did these boys or did these kids actually improve in their mental health, right? because the whole justification for doing these radical alterations in their bodies is that, well, it's going to keep them from committing suicide.

It's going to help their mental health. Now, in practice, though, did you see that or not? No. And so this is part of also where I'm kind of an outlier, but I'm really interested in data. I'm more of a data scientist. My master's in science, you know, is clinical. And so I just started looking at our data. These kids should have had better scores, better scores on anxiety, depression.

Their suicidal ideation should be decreasing. And here's the thing. What the other side is going to say is that, oh, society just, they're still being, you know, society still. Stigma bullying. This is not the case. These were fully affirming environments. These are parents who fully embrace this. They were in school systems where they were kind of held up on a pedestal.

Like this was, this is not a bullying. So, no. And these kids were not getting better. And we see that even in places like Sweden, who have been affirming of this thing for a long time. The study, the landmark study from a few years ago that showed that men who transitioned into women actually had no fewer thoughts of suicidal ideation and actually committed suicide at the same rate of those who identified as transgender before their transition. And so I don't even think that we have solid evidence that proves that this is improving outcomes. You talked about how the young girls who came in, they had lots of other mental health problems. Can you talk about that?

What were typically the mental health problems that you saw? Oh, there was the typical and then what I think social media has caused. Typical was, you know, anxiety, depression, self-harming behaviors, eating disorders. I mean, this is, in some ways, this is kind of, you know, a new version of what we saw as anorexia. And, you know, like, there are swings and kind of mental health trends that go. I mean, I think trans is one of those. But the thing that was really hard to see was that these were the kids in the lockdowns. These were the kids who had all of the negative effects of what was.

we did to them because of COVID. I mean, we kept the bars open, but we closed the schools. I mean, but these kids were starting to develop things that were socially mediated contagions. So TikTok ticks, kids who believe that they have Tourette's syndrome, but it's the exact same Tourette's as you see in, you see in TikTok videos, yeah, on social media. kids who believe that they had multiple personality disorders, kids who, I mean, we had two patients who believed that their vision was affected, one who believed that they were actually blind. But they weren't. They were not. And we sent them to have all of the tests run to see what was a biological cause. There was none. I mean, this was a socially mediated belief that they were, that they believe

that they were blind. Wow. And we also saw children who believed that they had these real serious, I mean, socially mediated contagion illnesses are some of the hardest to treat. You have to get first at the concept that they will even recognize that they might have something that's not biologically driven. Yeah. It's like luncheastern.

Yes, but internalized more. And then the issue that I was budding up against also. from like a social science perspective is the clinicians could see that these kids had all of these other socially mediated illnesses. And when I said trans is one of those, they were like, oh, but no, trans is the authentic true self. And I'm like, really? Because this child hits every single other marker. And their parent says that they had no gender distress in childhood, no gender distress even six months ago, but now they're trans. And the doctors didn't care. Was there any doctor that you talked to, any endocrinologist, any therapist that you discuss this with who was like,

yeah, you might be right. There was a nurse that I worked with that we were really close and we shared a lot of the same concerns. Our child psychiatrist would sometimes share those same concerns. What I learned after I left the center was that there was an endocrinologist who had a position of authority within this division. And when they went to try to open the center, the center chronologist is saying, I don't think the science is here. I don't think we should do this. And that person is actually pushed out of their leadership position. And the center was opened against that person's real true, better judgment and scientific evidence. Yes, I think. that we have just been in a culture of so much fear that as soon as I, my story broke,

there were so many doctors within even the system that I worked in emailing me saying, thank God you said this. Yeah. I've been thinking this. And what's difficult for me, though, is that I was not in the same position of authority that these clinicians had and they couldn't take the step. I think that if there were more, of them, if more people were brave enough to step up, it wouldn't fall on just a small number of our shoulders. But I think what we're talking about is ideological capture of a portion of the medical community, which is a very dangerous place to be. Next sponsor is crowd health. I don't have to tell you all how complicated and tire some health insurance can be. Sometimes even if you have it, it feels

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alley a checkout. That's join crowdhealth.com code alley. Crowdhealth is not insurance. Learn more at join crowdhealth.com code alley. Tell me about blowing the whistle. How did you decide to come out with your story? I lost a lot. So I eventually was kind of pushed out where they, They were basically saying, you can't continue to raise ethical concerns. You need to get on board or get quiet, shut up, move on. I was in a very privileged job. My children would have had an amazing college tuition benefit.

I had excellent insurance. I had a good salary. But I couldn't continue to work in that center. So I found a different position within the university. And I honestly tried for a minute to just let it go. Just forget about it. Out of sight, out of mind. Can I just let this go?

and I just found any time that I was quiet sitting with my own thoughts, it just nagged at me. Like I couldn't, I would picture these kids. I would picture the parents who just fought for their kids. And I was just like, I just cannot leave all of this behind. And it took a long time to figure out how to do this. But I eventually reached out to, you know, a medical, advocacy group who then put me in touch with Bernadette and once I had counsel I was really had a team built around me

to give me the legal advice, the counsel, but also just the support. Yeah. I think so much of this is we have to just, if you can have one person with you to walk with you. Makes a difference. Courage is contagious. It absolutely is. Yeah. We talk about sharing the arrows and that's when you see someone being unfairly maligned or bullied or reaping consequences for standing up for what is right or standing up for something that you believe in too rather than us cowering in the corner and saying, wow, I'm glad that's not me. Now I'm not going to speak up because I don't want that to happen to me. We say, no, whatever arrows you're throwing at them, you can

throw at me too. And when we all do that, that makes a big difference. But it does take one. And you were the one in this scenario that said, you know what, I've got to speak up about it. So tell me what the reaction has been like. It's, in some ways, it's been one of the greatest blessings of my life. I was so afraid the night before that story broke that I would end up on the other side of that completely alone. And it's the exact opposite. And it's, I also felt like I was going up against what many people would say is my community. I mean, I, you know, the gay and lesbian community, I thought that I was just going to be a pariah and completely ostracized. And what immediately started happening was email after email after email of all of these people who had been fighting

this fight for years already. I didn't even know so many of. of them existed. But I mean, I had one person reach out to me, send an email and she said, just so you know, you're my new best friend. And I've, and she shared with me her writing and her work. And this was a liberal, you know, lefty woman who, she just was like, we're out here. We've been fighting this and we are ready to embrace you. And that's really all that's happened is I've just been supported in so many ways from so many different angles, though, too. I can truly say now I have friends in every single partisan. I mean from like weird libertarians and I don't entirely know what they're talking about all the time to, you know, some of these really high-placed Republicans to normal Democrats to, you know, all across the board.

But this issue is so damaging and it has caused so much harm. but it also has this ability to break apart some of these divisions in our country in such a powerful way. It has brought together. I mean, that's the blessing, Allie. It's that it has brought together people who would otherwise never be aligned with each other at all. Far left, far right, just laying aside all of that and is becoming a rallying cry. that in parental rights, but, and they're rallying around, around Jamie. Yeah. You know, and the courage that they're seeing. Yes. And Jamie, tell me a little bit about your spouse, because you mentioned that

she was transgender. Were you sharing with her at the time all of the stuff that you were concerned about, especially about the young women? And how did that go? So I'll say this about my spouse. Roxy never was as on board with transitioning kids as I was. So there are definitely a lot of individuals who have medically transitioned as adults who absolutely were never in support of doing this to kids. She never believed that this was a good idea, in part because she had transitioned herself as an adult and just recognized how challenging it was and how many, you know, individual decisions had to be made.

So initially was never on board with this for kids. But then when the, when I blew the whistle, it really, I think, caused this real rift in our marriage because it really really put in front of her pathway this reckoning point that she was not ready to do. And it took a very long time for her to get there. And so one of the things that has been challenging for that relationship was that in some ways I really did have to step out alone to blow the whistle. She could not walk there. Because at this point, did you kind of feel like not just children, but the entire concept of transitioning was harmful and maybe based on a lie? So I absolutely recognized that I felt my own spouse had transitioned as a response to trauma. And I absolutely felt that I could see, especially within the lesbian community, that so many gender nonconforming lesbian women were medically transitioning in response to trauma and response to our society really just not accepting their gender nonconformity as masculine women.

And so to me, I think that kind of gets back to this concept of true trans. And no, so I recognized, you know, that true trans is really kind of a misnomer because what it ignores is that there's so many pathways into this for people. Trauma, vulnerability, autism, gender nonconformity in childhood, just being a gay or lesbian adult. Like there's so many pathways in that I think it's a misnomer to talk or pretend like there's really this true authentic self that is trans. I hold a position really now that's kind of challenging to nuance, but there are so many adults who have already done this that we still have to provide them compassion, love, and care and acceptance while we start to have the questions about what does the, I'm all about evidence. What does the evidence show us? The evidence shows us this is not the right pathway

for children. Period. End of story. We don't need any more studies. This is not the right thing to do for kids. And has your spouse detransitioned? Yes. She has completely ceased testosterone and is starting to think about ways to kind of reintegrate, you know, that biological sex that was always there as an outward presentation. Wow. I bet that's been quite the journey too. She has been doing this was such grace and also the way that I would hope anybody who goes to do this does this, which is support mental health treatment, getting a therapist, going slow, and just taking the time to try to reintegrate in a way that works. You don't have to know all of the, you don't have to have all the answers to say, this is my actual biological sex. And how is that

going to look. You don't have to know that to just embrace this is my real biological sex. Last sponsor for the day is Jace Medical. It is better to be safe than sorry when it comes to your family's medical needs. We've got flu season, all kinds of viruses floating around. And if for some reason you're not able to get to the pharmacy or get through to your doctor the way that you normally do, you want an emergency stash of medication online. The Jace case not only comes with five lifesaving antibiotics for bacterial infections, but also you can add on things like Tamiflu or Ivermectin or an epipen. And this really could be a lifesaver for you or someone in your family.

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What are you seeing in your practice? Yeah, so I'm seeing both the things that are happening, particularly in schools, that are, in a sense, feeding the monster. What Jamie described is what I call it as a monster. and it has many tentacles that are going into virtually every portion of our society is going into our government. We had a federal government that it was pushing this, and that's when it exploded as a misdirection of their distortion of Title IX

and media, just really every portion of our society, but the one that is most toxic towards children and most harmful has been the school and the academic. And so we talk about, in our practice, we talk about the school to clinic pipeline that they've set up. So what we've seen, and we have many parents who work with and we have lawsuits over, are children that are secretly transitioned. So one of them, I'm thinking of the Perez family. So their little girl, she was 12.

This is a Catholic Christian family, had never had any gender dysphoria, and really didn't have any mental health problems to speak of, just a normal kid. And, but she was, she was bullied a bit at school. And she thought, you know, boys are stronger. So I just want to be a boy. That alone then catalyzed this process where privately the school counselor started to meet with her. Parents had no idea to promote and endorse this, this idea that, well, maybe I should be a boy. Maybe I am a boy.

A public school or did you say Catholic school? A public school. And Alibet, this is in Florida. Yeah. Well, Ron DeSantis was governor. Right. Right. A few years ago before they passed some of their laws they passed. This helped pass some of these laws. But so she's meeting with this counselor privately and it creates a double life. And the level life became so untenable for her. Of course. Unbearable that she just decides it'd just be better if I end my life and she attempted to suicide at school. I mean, like really, truly did. And so the pain. parents, they're called, they have no idea, they're called to the principal's office to learn for the first time as their child is being taken to the hospital on the back of a police vehicle. What is going on? Well, they learn, she'd been trans-identifying and been meeting with the punk.

They learn everything for the very first time. Wow. Thankfully, she has desisted and now she frankly wants to be a warrior to, you know, to fight this. Wow. We have a lawsuit for that. Our most tragic story, and there's, we could sit here for two hours. Yeah. Unfortunately.

Yeah, unfortunately. But our most tragic is sage. Now, I'll say her name because there's now a law in her honor that they're trying to pass in Virginia. She had had trauma as a child, talking about the trauma pathway. And so when she hit puberty, see, there's a lot of things that line up, begins to trans identify. That causes her to become sexually harassed school

because they're telling her, and she's tiny, she's a five-fit-tall, to use the boy's bathroom. None of this is told to the parents. So Sage, she runs away because she doesn't feel safe. And when she runs away, she runs into the arms of an adult, pedophile who raped her and trafficked her to other men

and took her across state lines. And when she's found in Maryland, the woke judge doesn't want to give her back the system there in Baltimore because they discover that her parents might not be affirming of her male identity. This is a traumatized child. Her mom wasn't able to be there when they do a rape kit on her. And so they put her in a facility for troubled boys because she's identifying as a child. male. Allie, what do you think happens to her in this facility? Of course.

What everyone knows, all of your audience knows immediately. So she runs away because she's being sexually assaulted there again, and she's trafficked further, and they find her in Texas. And thankfully, Texas has a common sense to return her to her parents. We have a lawsuit now in Virginia. It's pending before the Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals. But there are so many of these stories. Yes.

And that's the kids. So then what is it that's feeding the clinic that Jamie worked at? Well, are these school officials that are endorsing this lie to susceptible children who are in the process of development who believe trusted adults? When the trusted adult says, maybe your problem is that you were born in the wrong body. And you know what? We don't have to tell your parents because you and I know better. And so by the time that the parents find out there's so much there's so much indoctrination.

And these kids are demanding to go to Jamie's former clinic. And the parents are then in an untenable situation. And they feel, and they're coerced many. So that's one side of the stories that are apart and behind the scenes of this clinic, of clinics like this and all around the country. Well, are we going to tear this? down? Is it crumbling? What do you think? So within my own state, a story broke and within a year, the center was completely closed. Wow. Praise God. Which was actually, it was my goal. It was what

the night before that story came out, I said, you know, we just have to get this place has to be shut down. Yeah. But our country is really fractured. Yeah. So we have 24, 25 states that are trying to protect kids, and we have 24, 25 states that are not. And so what my coalition is working to do every day is to try to make sure those other states start to protect these kids. And we also have to pull this out of this kind of, you know, cultural mess of a conversation that we've got going on and really bring this. back to real simple basics. Children have the right to grow up with their fertility, their sexual

function, and their endocrine systems intact, whole, and functional. It is their basic human right. We have been perpetuating a human rights abuse against children in this country. That is a nonpartisan issue. This is not a red or blue. It is purely a human rights issue that has to stop. Yeah, and parents have the right to know what is going on with their child laws, even in conservative states. And, well, you would be able to tell me, but from my understanding, counselors really don't have to tell parents. They are legally obligated to keep some of these conversations confidential between them and this child. And that needs to change. Parents need to have the rights to this kind of information about their kids, right?

Well, it depends on the state. So in most states, actually, parents, they do have the right to know what's going on, even in counseling sessions, unless they have consented to not knowing. Okay. And it really is, it is different from state to state. So the first thing I's held to parents, and then there are some states like California and Oregon and Washington and really the deep blue states in which, unfortunately now kids have the right as early as 12 or 13 to be. able to consent to mental health treatment without their parents being involved at all. And these kids are in a world of hurt. These parents are into world of hurt. But the, so we say to parents all the time, do not relinquish your parental rights at any stage. Demand them. Because the last, you know, story I'll share and we talk about how to, how to tear this monster down, is child protective services being weaponized. Yeah. We're seeing this around the country. And we have right now a case in California. I have one already in Arizona, but a case in California where a family, an immigrant family, has lost custody of their child because she is

gender dysphoric. She's gendered confused. And these parents believe in biological reality. So we're fighting that right now. So the thing I want, we, Jamie and I talked about, we're hoping that your audience realizes that, number one, don't expect because you're a baby a conservative family or a Christian family that your child is safe, is immune from this. Yeah. These are conservative parents. They're Christian parents. In fact, many of our clients are.

And even if your child is not even in public school, child protective services can go anywhere. Right. Yeah. And they can be called at any time. And we're seeing a huge up to, last week in three days, we had three families. Contact our office for help with child protective services. Yes. So the most important thing is that by the time a family gets to me, okay, to either Jamie,

the former Jamie or to me as a lawyer, they're in a world of hurt. They're in a nightmare. So we're wanting to talk about and we'll share a little bit about resources and recruiting the faith community, the church, to get to a place to, as you said, inoculate our children and our families before we get there. Yeah. Well, we will absolutely share those resources. We'll make sure to link them in the description of this episode. My producer is telling me that we do have to wrap, although I could talk to you guys for hours. And I just want to say, I'm so thankful for your courage. You didn't have to. You could have moved on, moved to a different job,

make sure that your kids still get tuition help to a university. And you chose to sacrifice on behalf of people who may never thank you or know how you positively impacted their life. And of course, you too. I mean, just legally on the front lines, I mean, this fight just wouldn't exist without lawyers who are willing to take up this cause many times at personal cost. And so I just want to thank y'all so much. Courage begets courage. And you just never know who's going to watch her listen to this and take up the cause of

of courage because of what y'all are doing. So thank you. And I am praying. doing whatever small thing I can from this microphone to just link arms with you guys and to try to end this. And I think that we can. So thank you. Thank you.