Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 1121 | Jinger Duggar Vuolo on Escaping People-Pleasing & Setting Biblical Boundaries

Episode Date: January 13, 2025

Today, we sit down with Jinger Duggar Vuolo, author of "People Pleaser: Breaking Free from the Burden of Imaginary Expectations," to talk about her new book and how she put an end to her people-pleasing tendencies. We discuss how she broke out of legalism and learned the true gospel as she sought to glorify God with her life and how biblical modesty is the standard to which we should aspire. Jinger also tells us how her people-pleasing ultimately hurt her ability to be in community and gives other people-pleasers advice on how to stop focusing so much on the selfish need to belong and how to let others into their lives. Buy Jinger's new book, "People Pleaser: Breaking Free from the Burden of Imaginary Expectations": https://a.co/d/46kmsWm Subscribe now to watch "Relatable at Home: The Theology of Hospitality," use code ALLIE for a discount: https://www.blazetv.com/watch/channel/series/series/d36O0ZN2Y3SO-relatable-with-allie-stuckey/episode/ibm4P9uEjkrf-relatable-at-home--the-theology-of-hospitality?t=0 Buy Allie's new book, "Toxic Empathy: How Progressives Exploit Christian Compassion": https://a.co/d/4COtBxy --- Timecodes: (02:25) About "People Pleaser: Breaking Free from the Burden of Imaginary Expectations" (08:57) Teachings of Bill Gothard  (13:44) People pleasing behavior  (17:45) Biblical standards of modesty (22:16) Pleasing God vs. pleasing man (32:06) Trading down (40:44) People-pleasing is selfish (44:01) The heart behind hospitality (48:07) Advice for people-pleasers  ---   Today's Sponsors: Seven Weeks - Experience the best coffee while supporting the pro-life movement with Seven Weeks Coffee; use code ALLIE at https://www.sevenweekscoffee.com to save up to 25% and help save lives. Pre-Born — Will you help rescue babies' lives? Donate by calling #250 & say keyword 'BABY' or go to Preborn.com/ALLIE. Jase Medical — Go to Jase.com and enter code “ALLIE” at checkout for a discount on your order. CrowdHealth — get your first 3 months for just $99/month. Use promo code 'ALLIE' when you sign up at JoinCrowdHealth.com. --- Related Episodes: Ep 745 | Life as a Duggar & Letting Go of Legalism | Guest: Jinger Duggar Vuolo https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/ep-745-life-as-a-duggar-letting-go-of-legalism/id1359249098?i=1000596623691 Ep 777 | On Duggar Theology, Josh’s Arrest, & Media Lies | Guests: Jinger Duggar Vuolo & Jeremy Vuolo https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/ep-777-on-duggar-theology-joshs-arrest-media-lies-guests/id1359249098?i=1000606178083 ---   Buy Allie's book, You're Not Enough (& That's Okay): Escaping the Toxic Culture of Self-Love: https://alliebethstuckey.com/book Relatable merchandise – use promo code 'ALLIE10' for a discount: https://shop.blazemedia.com/collections/allie-stuckey

Ginger Dugger-Vuolo grew up under legalism, and because of that, she became a serial people-pleaser. But now she's out with an amazing new book called People Pleaser, Breaking Free from the Burden of Imaginary Expectations. And today she is going to talk about how she has dealt with this obsession, with perfection, with what other people think about her, and how she has allowed biblical truth, the true gospel, to help her break free from that and how we can do the same. You're going to love this conversation. It's brought to you by our friends at Good Ranchers. Go to Good Ranchers.com. Use Code Allie at checkout. That's good ranchers.com code Allie. Ginger, thanks so much for coming back on the show. Thanks for having me, Allie. This is super fun. Yeah. So how are you feeling? Pregnancy wise. You know, I'm feeling good. I'm 24 weeks.

I'm past the nausea now. And I'm kind of at that happy spot. where I don't feel super huge. Sweet spot. But I'm able to, like, have more energy and be able to get up and do projects around the house, all the things that you need to get done before the baby comes. So this is number three. Yeah. I'm sure everyone is so excited.

Your girls are so pumped. They're stoked. Yeah, especially Felicity, my oldest. She's just super excited because she's at the stage where she's just talking about helping with the baby and all of that. So we're really, really looking forward to having another one. Okay, do you feel like writing a book is kind of like having a baby? Yes, 100%.

I felt like that. So I'm very impressed that you have a new book out while you are a mom of now three and having a real baby. Yeah, it's a little wild. Like, I think you've been through the process multiple times as well. You get it. Like there's a certain sense of when you're writing it, then the editing process. And then when it comes out, then it's like promoting the book. All of that stuff does take a lot of time.

and it does feel like you have just given birth without the pain. That's the part that I'm thankful for. It's not as painful. So it's more fun. It's not painful in that sense. But there is so much effort. And it's a lot of vulnerability that you're putting out into the world, especially you because you're sharing your story.

So you came on the show to talk about your last book, just your story of breaking free from legalism, understanding the true gospel. And now you've got this book about people, pleasing. So tell us about it. Why did you write this book following your last one? Yeah, I think that once I wrote my last book and that process of writing it, it was very tough. There were a lot of things I had to work through. And I knew for so many years that I felt like I was a people pleaser. I would see how I was so consumed with what other people thought about me and about keeping everyone

on my good side. I wanted to make everyone happy, whether that was family and friends or even whenever I went to write Becoming Free Indeed, it was talking about exposing the harmful teachings I grew up under. And that was something for me that was very difficult because it took me a lot of years to get to that place where I felt like I could actually open up and speak on that topic. And as I was talking to Jeremy, we were praying about the timing, praying about when to speak up against these teachings, that really made me realize because for so many years I was so crippled by what other people were going to think that I would not speak up. And it wasn't until it came to the point where there were so many things publicly that were happening, things that were

being said. And I realized I was like, at the end of the day, I have to do what's right before God, not before what my friends or my family may think I'm supposed to do. And that was the hardest switch for me. And I think at that time, I started seeing even more how I wanted to break free from these people pleasing tendencies that were so ingrained in me. I think some people may have it to, like they may have a deeper sense of that. And others, it may not come as naturally. Maybe they're more black and white, bold, and like, I don't care what you think. And they'll just speak whatever they want to. But for me, it was more of a wrestling that I noticed. And so definitely writing that book helped me to begin to like break free even more from people pleasing.

Here's what you say in the introduction and I think it's really poignant and powerful from the downfall of Bill Gothard to the horrible revelations about one of my siblings. Here's one of the most important things I've learned. I won't live a lie. Tell me about that revelation, that declaration of not living a lie. Yeah, I think that it's so easy. especially if you grew up in a setting where it was performance based in many ways. Like my parents would encourage us to be authentic to be ourselves, but at the same time, the system that we grew up under the teachings of Bill Gothard were very geared towards you performing, you doing well in this setting and letting other people see that you were

a light to the nations, that you were shining for everyone to see that. but a lot of it was based on what you could do to get there. And so it wasn't based on who you truly were. And I think that with all of that in mind, that opening section there, I think once I realized, okay, there was stuff going down, like you said, with my brother, very publicly. And the glory of God was, I don't want to say like at stake, because God's glory is going to be made known. but there were a lot of people who were saying a lot of things.

And I felt like, okay, they were equating Christianity to the teachings of Bill Gothard or things like that. And I was like, okay, at some point, I'm eager they're going to have to be quiet or I'm going to have to speak up and stop acting like, this is all right and it's all okay. And for me, I think as far as living a lie, like that side of it where I feel like there's so much I want to say, I don't know how to say it. Well, maybe some of that too is like my timidity. I don't want anybody on my bad side.

And so I'm not going to be willing to speak up. I'm going to try to keep everybody happy. Like if there's somebody who's a bully or they're doing something wrong, that was part of the people pleasing for me. I was not willing to speak up. And I remember one time in particular there was a setting where I felt uncomfortable with my kids around someone. And I was so torn because here I am.

I want to protect my kids. I want to be the mama bear that I'm supposed to be. And at the same time, I'm thinking, well, what does this person who is not a safe person to be around? What are they thinking of me? And in that moment, it's like, you just stop. And it's like, no, what am I thinking? This is ridiculous.

Like, I'm getting my kids out of this situation. I'm protecting them. I'm going to speak up because I care so much about them. That, like, jolted me. And I thought, how was I even sitting here, like, questioning that for two seconds? No, you have that instinct. You got to stand up and not act like everything's okay. And I think that that was something that was really difficult for me to get to that point

to where I realized, okay, I need to speak up for the vulnerable. I need to stand up for truth and not be afraid of what people think. First sponsor of the day is seven weeks coffee. Seven weeks coffee is an amazing Christian family-owned company that exists not only to bring amazing, great tasting, pesticide-free, totally clean, high-quality coffee to you, but also to save the lives of babies inside the womb. That's why they're called seven weeks coffee at seven weeks gestation. That little baby in the womb is the size of a coffee bean, and they matter just as much as everyone else.

And that's why seven weeks coffee donates 10% of every sale to a pro-life pregnancy center. And so far, they have donated over $750,000 to these pregnancy centers. The the country resulting in saving thousands of these little baby lives. They've got an awesome deal going on in the new year. If you subscribe to their heartbeat club, you get that box of coffee to your front door every month. You also get a free engraved coffee spoon plus 15% off every order. Plus when you use my code Alley at 7weeks Coffee.com, you get up to a 25% off discount at 7weekscoffee.com code Allie for 25% off your first order. For those who aren't familiar, we don't have to rehash because we've already talked in

multiple episodes about the teachings that you grew up under, but Bill Gothard, who he is and how his teachings kind of conditioned you and conditioned a lot of people under his teachings to make an idol of people pleasing. Can you explain that? For sure. Yeah. So just in a very short form, Bill Gothard was a man who came on the scene in the 60s and 70s promoting teachings that he had came up with. He said that they were the word of God. These were teachings that everyone should abide by. A lot of them were legalistic rules and things that he came up with thinking, okay, this is going to protect your family from the destruction that's in the world. So he would give you his seven basic

principles that you need to follow to a T. And these things are going to guarantee success for your family. So your kids are going to walk with the Lord. They're going to, like I said, be a light to the nation's. That was his big thing. He would always talk about no matter what's happening, you need to have a perfect greeting, and you need to constantly have this smile, act like everything's okay, be cheery, happy all the time, because that's how you're going to show others that you are walking with Christ. And I get it, like there was a certain side of that that as believers, yes, when we're walking through trials and challenges, there are times where, you know, we need to have joy in the midst of sorrow realizing that God has allowed this for a reason. But his side was more man-made rules of like,

okay, well, here are the steps you need to follow. So whether you're a Christian or not, you can follow these steps to show people how good you're doing. And it felt like a performance in a show all the time. And so if you were having a hard day, he even had a line that he would bring and when we visited his headquarters in Chicago, he would often bring this up. He would say, okay, we need to have the perfect greeting. So when you walk up to somebody, have a bright, cheery smile and shake their hand. And when they ask you, how are you doing? You say, I am rejoicing. So I remember a couple times going up and he would like have people do these little things. So they'd walk up to him and they'd say, how are you doing? And he'd say, I'm rejoicing, Mr. Gothard.

I am rejoicing. And he said, look at your bright countenance. Wow. Now you're sharing with the world. that you are doing great. And it's like, but then if you looked at the lives of his followers, sadly they were living a lie, half of them were not able to stop the indulgence of their flesh because it was outward things they were doing as even like some of them may have been believers, some of them weren't, but they were trying to find a key outside of scripture, outside of themselves that was not from the Lord, not asking the Lord to help them. But they would just, they would go to these things and say, okay, well, I've got to follow his steps and then I'm going to be free from this sin or I'm going to be able to impact the world around me. And so I think we saw that time and time again when Bill Gauthored himself, he was accused by multiple women of sexual misconduct. And there were just so many things that came up. A lot of his followers had issues that were so deep and so awful.

and a ton of, ton of them, even the people who were at headquarters would go there, do all these ministry trips with him, and they would wear the right clothes, the navy and white

that he wanted them to wear, and they would keep up this facade, but then on the inside, half of them ended up leaving because they were not truly transformed. It was all outward. So the external side of that, that focus on the externals,

like the Pharisees, really, I think that's what was driving his teachings. So you prop people up until you can't anymore. And then when real life hits, when temptation comes, they fall because they were not truly the lords or they were not truly grounded in the word. Everything was kind of outward. And there's just this aspect of prosperity gospel in it because it's if you follow these

rules, then God is almost compelled or obligated to bless you. Like if you follow the structure of protection, I remember one of the things that you talked about kind of like the picture of the umbrella that God is protecting the man, the man is protecting the wife, protecting the children. And if you disobey, then you fall out of God's protection. So not only does it change your view of people because you're thinking, okay, if I disrupt this relationship or I make this person mad, then I'm maybe not following the rules, but then you're thinking also maybe God is not going to protect me anymore if I don't obey these rules. So I imagine that part of people pleasing is not just about idolatry of what people

think, but also this fear that if I don't please all these people that God is placed in my life perfectly in accordance to what they tell me to do, then maybe God isn't pleased with me. So it becomes a very fearful and anxious existence, I imagine. Yes, for sure. I think you nailed it there because that is a huge part that we often can overlook. Like, especially in the Christian setting, we realize that God is a loving heavenly father. We know that in theory, but then in practice, it can often be something that we forget. And I think that that performance-based mindset that we can fall into, especially when you do grow up under a setting of a teacher telling you that, okay, if you step outside of these rules, these outward standards, if it's like wearing pants or if it's listening

music with drums, even if it's the Gettys, then you're bringing the destruction upon yourself that God could smite you dead because of it. And I think that that fear can cripple you and it can put you in such a bad place and a bad view of God. And so, yeah, and even the people pleasing that plays into that, I think, is there. You see it because for me, I remember just being like, okay, people would tell me, oh, Ginger, you know, because I was so conservative on my music and on my dress, I would make sure my skirts fell like halfway between my, you know, my, on your shin. And I was like, this is how I'm supposed to dress. It's so modest. And they were like, praise you for it. And then I felt like, oh, yes, I am doing really good. And I was trying to do keep up all the outward things until I

couldn't anymore until I was so broken and I wasn't saved until the age of 14. And all those years, I was being praised for all the things I was doing. And I mean, that can happen in a Christian setting where you're so thankful to be taught the gospel. I was taught the true gospel from my parents that salvation is not by works and that is the gift of God. But then at the same time, I think the way that played out in my life was like, okay, I know what to do. I'm going to do it. I was also more of a temperament. Like I said, I like to get. along with people. So I am going to try to make everybody happy. So if my parents tell me, this is how we're going to address, this is what we're going to listen to. Okay, I'll do that.

Like, I'm not going to buck up against it because I don't want to make you mad. And I also want your approval. And so that was something I noticed, this pattern of just like trying to keep everyone happy around me. And it wasn't until I realized I can't do that. Whenever I have differences in disagreements, whenever I stopped walking in those teachings of Bill Gauthors, immediately it shifted and I had people mad at me for living by conviction for not when I started wearing pants it was hard there were people who were very upset about that and they felt like I was walking away from the faith for marrying somebody who was in a different theological camp than me so was this the because I remember when I don't even know if was it paparazzi or someone who saw you like

wearing shorts or pants and it became a thing was it a controversy within your family or is it more people online who expected you to always dress a certain way and when you diverted from that they thought that you were no longer a believer yeah i think that there were there were so many people who were saying things about the way i was dressing and um like online mostly online and friends and loved ones that were more concerned because they were kind of like okay you've had this conviction or so we thought for all these years and then once shortly after I was married, then I was not following those convictions anymore. And some of them thought, okay, maybe it's Jeremy who's forcing you to wear pants or something. But we're not talking

about immodest, which is really important to say here because that is what it is. You realize that, okay, that is not necessarily the biblical standard of modesty. Yes, we're supposed to be modest, but it is not a biblical dictate that women have to be wearing dresses or skirts. So that was the difference of conviction that people were worried about. Totally. And this is the thing because I went to so many conferences with ATI, Bill Gotha conferences. I went to his headquarters countless times. And I say it's headquarters. He had this place. They called it headquarters. And it was his place where he had all these young, attractive people who were singles and he would tell them, come work for me. But they had to wear these certain clothes. And so they would often wear suits and all

of that, the girls would wear like, you know, the sports jackets with like the, the pencil skirts. Well, a lot of them, if you look at that, it was interesting because the love, the standard of modesty, like I said, a lot of these things are external. They're like so, they're like the letter of the law. And so as long as you are wearing it below the knee, you're modest. Well, I saw so many girls who were very modest in that setting trying to draw attention to themselves in wrong ways who were wearing a skirt. Or, you know, you're wearing a skirt. Or, you're not modest. Well, I saw so many girls who were, maybe they were wearing a long skirt and they were doing the same. But their attitude of their heart was very immodest, very not probably honoring to God in the way they carried themselves. And then you

see people in a pair of jeans and it was like, oh yeah, you're so modest. So I think I started to realize there was a distinction there. There was a difference than I may have thought initially. And if somebody's convicted to wear skirts only, it doesn't bother me. Because if that's their conviction before God, I get it. Like you can have that conviction. But I started wanting to examine the scriptures for myself and to see what God's word actually said. And then to walk in that was hard because, like I said, I was a people pleaser. I wanted to keep everyone happy. And so the second I wore pants or shorts, immediately I had people who were very upset about that. And online, there were constantly tabloid articles, paparazzi photos that were taken. And I would be out at the

grocery store not thinking because I'm just like, okay, I'm just going to run out and get groceries. And And there would be headlines just blasting, saying things that were not true even about why I was wearing that. Like, Ginger does this despite her family. And I'm like, no, I don't. I'm just literally running to the grocery store. And I think a lot of those things I realized I cannot be so consumed what the critics say about me. Because one day they're going to praise me. One day they're going to hate me.

They're going to say all the false things. So I just determined to try to stay off, like stay offline to not look at all of those things. because it was, it was really, for a while, it was an identity check. I realized I was like, how much am I consumed with what everyone around me thinks? And for a while, it, like, was so hard for me to wrestle with because I was like, oh, no, they're going to believe this about me. Or maybe my friends are going to read this headline, they're going to see it, and they're going to think this is true.

But then at the end of the day, I was like, no, okay, whatever I'm doing before God, that's all that matters. I want to be pleasing to God, not pleasing to everyone around me. and if they can see that I love God, I'm honoring him in this way, then he will protect that. If there's reputation that needs to be protected, God will do that. But I need to leave it to him. Second sponsor for the day is preborn. Preborn is a network of pro-life clinics across the country working really hard to save babies inside

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rights, the most fundamental of which is the right to life. So go to preborn.com slash alley. Make your donation today. That is preborn.com slash alley. And that's really kind of the core of your book is trying to please God to honor him to glorify him and allowing him to take care of the rest. Because trying to please others, is a really heavy burden to carry. Like I've talked to Christians who say, you know, I just don't want any enemies. And of course, I feel that way. I don't want people mad at me.

I don't want people to be saying mean things about me. No one wants that because there's a certain level of tension there that just doesn't feel good. But also it's a really heavy burden to try to make sure that you don't ever have any enemies, that no one ever disagrees with you. No one is ever offended by anything you do or say. that is also a really difficult yoke to carry. Yeah, I think so for sure, especially because like we realize, okay, yeah, we don't want people saying mean things.

If I walked into a room every day and somebody was standing there like, okay, Ginger, this is what I hate about you, all of these things. We would be beat down. Why? Because we were made for community. Community is a good thing. And like we were designed to be in the church. We were designed to have these relationships with family.

And at the end of the day, we have to realize. though, okay, that has been broken because of sin. The curse of sin came and then all of this brokenness and heartache comes. So families are often not as close as we wish they were or there will be loved ones who betray you and they'll say mean things about you. And at the end of the day, like you said, it's like, I want to be at a place where I'm not consumed by that. Because if my identity is first in Christ, then that is going to change everything about how I view myself. Am I just trying to get stuff out of everyone around me. Am I trying to find the approval that I'm seeking from others? Like, I'm just desperate for their approval, their opinion, like to be their friend,

maybe because they're well known or because they have a lot of money. Well, those things are all selfish and they're wrong. And so we see that skewed side of community, wanting people pleasing for selfish motives. But that's where I think the beauty of the gospel is Christ, who came to lay down his life, he was beaten. He was bruised. He was, he took the weight of our sin upon him. And when you think about that, like, it changes everything because he did not come to be served, but he came to serve, to lay down his life, to give his life as a ransom for us. And when we have that perspective of like, okay, no matter what other people may say or do, I want my life to be glorifying to God. I want to be in a place where I can say, okay, no matter what I'm doing,

I am going to lay down my life for others and I'm going to serve them not expecting anything in return. And that leads to what I was thinking about is, okay, what is the difference between laying down your life for other people, putting them before you, considering their interests more important than your own and people pleasing, which is unhealthy. Yeah. I think there's such an interesting distinction there because what I've seen too in my own life, there have been so many negative aspects of people pleasing that have stood out to me throughout the years because we do have this side of like, okay, as Christians, we are to lay down our lives, we're to serve others around us. But I've also been in settings where it's been super interesting, like church

settings where there are the serial servers, as I would call them. These serial servers, they're people who are just doing everything in the church. And they're like in every children's play for Christmas. They're, you know, serving, they're getting the communion stuff ready. They're doing all the events and serving in nursery, cleaning the church afterwards. And it's like, wow, that's amazing. And this, there can be that side of it where those serial servers are doing so much. or for me, I went to the other extreme of people pleasing where I felt like I had to isolate myself. And this is because like whenever somebody might reach out to me and they're like, hey, Ginger, like, I'm in a tough spot.

Well, for convenience sake, there were so many times I wanted to say, okay, to this young college girl, I wanted to tell her like, yeah, you're going to have to find another day to come over because I looked around. My house was a mess. And that was the one thing that wanted to keep me from inviting her over because I was like so ashamed of how my house looked or my kids looked a little ragged or maybe I did. You know, no makeup on. There's still a sinkful of dishes there. And I would just instead of inviting her over into that, it's not like my house looks like that every day. And that's part of the people pleasing.

Like I was like, okay, well, should I invite her over? I remember one specific day. where I had even a little, my little one was like an infant. And I felt like a mess. Postpartum life, there were toys all over my living room. And it was just a rough day. Like, it was a very rough day. And I remember I got a phone call. This girl was like, can I come over? I'm really struggling. And in that moment, I froze. Like, I was so embarrassed about my house. I felt like I was a mess that day. I felt so, even spiritually, I felt like down. I was like, I haven't run my Bible probably in a couple days, just been up nursing at night.

Like, what do I have to give this girl? And at that time, I almost traded down. I almost didn't have her over. Because you just wanted everything to be perfect. I wanted to keep up this perfect persona of like, she was in our college ministry where my husband was preaching each week. And I thought, great, she's going to come into this mess and see Jeremy is a terrible person because look at how I can't keep the house together. And in that moment, I thought about it. And I was like, okay, if I say no, I'm going to go clean my house and then I'll invite her over tomorrow or next week is really when

I had time. So I was like, that's too far away. I need to say yes. So I said yes. I took like all of like five minutes because she was in the area. So like I took all of five minutes to like straighten two things. She came in literally like walked across toys to get to me on the couch with my baby and we talked and she was in such a such need that day and she was just like totally um disarming because she was like thank you so much for having me i just really want to talk to you and we had the best conversation she didn't even i was like do you even notice how terrible my house looks right now and the kids cry that you're up and down up and down you know as you're talking to people and at the end of the day i realized in that time i almost traded down from something that was so important just

to keep up this perfect persona of who I thought I needed to present myself as. And in that moment, though, it actually created a deeper relationship with her because then we ended up meeting up more often to like talk. And I wouldn't feel like feel bad or think twice before I had her over. Because then I thought in that mess, like I don't want to be so consumed about what she thinks about me that I just ignore her problems. I was thinking about, okay, what is she going to think about me? Like, what can I get out of this? You know, instead of like, how does she need to be served in this moment?

And so I think we see those situations will come up all the time. And there's also a time to say no, which is something that I had to learn. Because the other side of me is I will just say, no, like, I can't do anything. I'm going to isolate myself because I just, I don't know. At times you'll feel like, yes, you just have to keep up that persona. And so for those of us who may lean more that way, I think realizing, okay, we need to be able to say, we need to be able to say, okay, what would you have me to do, God? And that can be different for each person because in certain seasons of life, when we have too much going on, I need to be able to say no to things. Like we can't have host a Bible study at our house this week because I need to take care of my kids and my family. Or maybe it is sacrificial the next week where I'm like, okay, I don't feel like doing this, but this is how we're going to serve. This is how we're going to show the love of Christ to our neighbors and our friends. Next sponsor is Jace Medical.

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Yeah, it's like Jacob and E-Saw. So in the Bible where that story comes up, that's the first thing that I think about because it's it's something that we've heard the story over and over about Jacob and Esau, and there's a birthright, and they have this exchange between how there was this bowl of soup, this bowl of soup, and there was a trading down for a birthright. And I think in that setting, we can see how foolish it seems that you would sacrifice your inheritance for a bowl of soup and give that up. But in our normal lives, like every single day, I think I look at that, like, and I've thought through it so many times recently where I am faced every

day with this reality of like, will I trade down for what actually matters in the moment? Will I sacrifice my time and energy and will I give myself to others or will I trade down for lesser? So like with that girl or I have friends, mom friends who came over. One of her kids was eating Cheerios off of my floor, dried Cheerios. She crawled under my table, grabbed dry Cheerios because I had invited her over into my messy house. And her baby was literally eating these Cheerios and I was sitting there. I felt like my face was red. I was mortified that she was there. It was like her second time at my house. And I thought, she's going to hate me. She is going to hate me because she's going to think this is a terrible place to bring my kid. I can't bring her into this mess. But I almost traded down

that relationship because she wanted to come over for last minute. And she has a little one. She doesn't have family near me, us. And I was like, okay, yeah, you can come over and like hang out, but I knew that I couldn't clean up in time. And that's always the challenge, right? So I almost traded down that relationship, which ended up, she's my best friend now in L.A. And she just comes over all the time we'll do projects together like if my house is a wreck or if my storage room or garage that i didn't want anybody to see um she'll come over and she'll be like let's tackle this we have an hour before my baby needs to go down for now that good friend come over and then i'll go to her house and we'll do the same thing but i almost traded down that genuine relationship of like okay i'm going to keep up

this facade of who i want you to think i am and i'm never going to show you my mess i'm never going to let you into my life i'm not going to tell you how i'm struggling i'm not going to tell you how you can pray for me. And I think a lot of that can be a challenge because we realize not everyone can you open your life up to. Not everyone can you have there because there are people who will betray that trust. And at the end of the day, you have to realize, okay, I need to be willing to be vulnerable, willing to be my, like to be raw and to share who I truly am. But then at the same time, I think that there can also be a wisdom in being guarded in certain areas, realizing who is trustworthy. And so that people pleasing can show up in many different ways.

It can go either direction. It can go. You can be an overshare because you feel like you constantly are trying to connect with people and make them feel better. And so you're sharing so much. But it can also show up and thinking, well, I never want anyone to think anything bad about me or to be mad at me. So I'm just going to be completely closed off and shut down. A hundred percent. Yes.

for sure. And I think that I've had wrestling both ways, like with my friend. I remember the first time, I was walking through a really difficult time. And she came over and I talked to her. And it was like a godsend, you know, in that moment. And I just thought, wow, like I almost, I almost just kept that to myself, but I was so torn up inside. And I needed a friend to talk to. And the Lord used those things too to like draw us closer in friendship because I was willing to share like hey I'm struggling this is a hard thing like walking through this I need prayer not keeping up this facade of like oh I'm the perfect Christian I read my Bible every single day for an hour and I pray like all these things no I don't have it together I haven't read my Bible for a week I'm I'm so exhausted I have an infant

I need prayer please help me you know and those types of things I think often will bring you closer in relationships and friendships where you would never get there if you were just constantly trying to protect yourself and trying to keep up that facade. And as moms, this is another side. We have such differences in how we parent. And that was something that was hard for me to talk about because I would just kind of like, okay, we don't do sleep training or we don't do maybe we're not eating as healthy as we should and I'm kind of embarrassed about that because I try to eat healthy but oh when this family comes over I need to serve you organic food and let me put away all of the snacks that maybe maybe this has a little GMO in it let me just put that away because I was so like consumed with

what they thought about me that I couldn't have real relationships so here I am trying to live live out my life and it was draining me it was so exhausting because I was constantly just like oh this family does this so I need to do this when they're here Oh, this family does this. Okay, we need to, we need to, like, clean our home. We need to live a minimalist life, whatever it is, you know. And with moms, I feel like that can quickly become comparison and that tension can form. And then you're not actually being real and genuine with that person. You're just creating this little facade of who you want them to think you are. In the story of Mary and Martha, would you say that Martha was trading down?

by doing what she thought needed to be done around the house. But really, she was ignoring the true opportunity there. The most important thing with Jesus. Yes, Jesus there for sure. I think that that is such a beautiful picture that we see in Scripture because it's a reminder to all of us that we don't want to trade down from that greater thing. And I think that those relationships and that time that you can't get back, that is something, that time with Jesus that Martha just missed out on.

Like she traded down for that just to be busy, just constantly going. And I think that's what we see, like serial service, people who are just doing so much in the church. Well, you may be missing out on genuine relationships. Maybe you need to slow down. Maybe you need to actually sit in on a couple church services instead of serving every church service. Because maybe your soul's suffering. Maybe you're keeping up this facade for everybody else thinking, wow, she's serving everyone in the church. She's doing all of this.

Well, maybe you need to stop. Maybe you need to soak in some of that. Go to a Bible study. Connect in a small group. Because a lot of that, it will be approval of men. But then you know in yourself, there's a time to serve. There's a time to learn to and sit down and to enjoy that. So, yeah, for sure.

I'm realizing as you're talking that ironically, people pleasing is really more. self-centered that even if you think that you're just trying to make other people happy, while I'm just serving, I'm just doing this, I'm just cleaning up my house, I'm constantly doing these things because I care so much about other people. But when I'm just examining my own heart, because I'm certainly more of the person that leans in the direction of, like, closed off. Like I won't want to connect or have people over unless things like look and sound and seem like I've got it together. And when I think about my motivations behind that,

is it really because I'm so scared that that person's going to be offended or hurt by the crumbs on the floor? No, it's really about me. It's really about I want them to perceive me in a certain way. So like we could say that it is idolatry of people. But at the end of the day, at least for myself, when I struggle with people pleasing, it's really idolatry of self or idolatry of what I want people to, think that I am. And it seems to me, as you're explaining what people pleasing is, that that kind of is, whether you swing in one direction or the other, like the common motivation,

it's really more about the self than it is about truly serving other people. Exactly. Yeah, the self-centered selfishness in pride that lies there in our hearts, because it is, it is that understanding of like, okay, we want to have true community, we want to have friends, friendships. Yes, we're made for that. But I think the expectation that we set for ourselves in that standard that's so high, we want to keep it up. It is something that can really cripple us and expose our true heart, like you said, behind it. Am I loving this person well by keeping them out? Or should I show the love of Christ, even when I don't feel like it? Even when my house is a mess. And don't get me wrong, I love a clean house. Jeremy knows. Like I,

I will clean, clean, clean, clean, because I cannot stand clutter. I cannot stand mess. Yeah. So my house is not like, I'm not just living in squalor. Yeah. You might think that when you walk in sometimes. But it's, it's not that we're careless. We don't care.

We throw it all out. And I don't care when people come over. They're going to walk into my mess. Well, you know, sometimes you do need to clean up. And like if you're expecting somebody, yeah, clean up your house. Put on a candle. Make it look pretty or essential oils, you know. Yeah.

So let's just say that. Depending on how crunchy you are. Right, right. But I think with that, like, there is a certain level of realizing, okay, I'm going to do my best. I'm going to try to show others that I care and then leave the rest up to God and your reputation. Last sponsor for the day is crowd health. I don't have to tell you how crazy health insurance is. It seems like it's worse than ever the stories that I have been hearing of insurance, just denying

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I was just talking to someone, her name is Abby, and she wrote a cookbook, and we had like this hospitality. special that that we hosted together. I was really learning from her. And I love what she says just about the heart behind hospitality. And it sounds a lot like what you're saying that there shouldn't be an emphasis when we're thinking about any kind of service to other people, whether it's opening our home or serving someone in another way.

It's really not about the presentation or perfection. There's nothing wrong with presentation and with caring. But it really is about the heart of invitation. that Jesus displays so well in scripture and even just like the symbol of the table and dining and feasting and all of these things, it can be great to put effort behind that and to care and maybe that's something that you're naturally good at. And so you're using that excellence to serve other people and to glorify God. But she also talks about in the very beginning of her, you know, her hospitality endeavor, she was a really bad cook and she wasn't good at it. And she was

embarrassed to invite people over. And yet the Lord kept on adding people to her table every week. And this was back when she was just single. And that was really convicting to me because I'm not a natural. I'm definitely not natural at that kind of stuff. So I feel like I have to work hard at it. I love having people in my house, but I'm not a good cook either. Yeah. And so it is like almost, I will defeat myself before I start. But again, it's self-motivated because it's not that, oh, I'm afraid I'm my food is going to poison those people. It's like I don't want them to think it's not. I'm not. Perfect. It's not gourmet. Yes. Not amazing. Yes. So there is such a, there's such a balance between yeah, putting effort in when it's appropriate and good to do so, but also letting

things be knowing that the perfection and the presentation is not the point if you're really serving people. Yeah, for sure. I think we've all been at, we've all been at places where it's like, okay, you'll go to a place. I was just thinking of, I think it's a proverb. And I can't even remember the full thing. I'm a worst at like references and all of that. But like, better is a dinner of herbs where love is than a stalled ox and hatred there with. Like, just thinking of that, that's King James, because all my things are all memorized in King James. Yes. But just thinking about that, like you can have the best layout. You can have the best platter. And you can be at a place that's very rough. I've been at a meal that was super fancy before.

and it was like people were just at each other. Well, the meal wasn't enjoyable. It was fancy. It looked nice, but you just wanted to leave. And then you go to somebody's house and they serve you like a, let's just say, like a casserole, right? And there's all the stuff in there. You don't know what's in there. It's a little scary at times.

But you eat that and it's like you're enjoying sweet fellowship. And you don't think twice because the setting is different. There's love. There's excitement and you're fellowshiping. You go away blessed. And I think that often we forget that because it does seem like you have to have it all together. But the hospitality of like even having college students since we're in college ministry, like having college students in our house all the time, they'll come in and just, you know,

like at unique times. Like they'll say, hey, can we stop by? It's like later at night. And sometimes we discard that because it's family time. But other times it's like, yeah, stop by. And so many times you can't have everything all together. But you're like, hey, would you like a snack or something? And I'm like, what do I have in my cabinet?

I don't even know. You pull out something. And I think those are some of the sweetest moments that we've had is just like those on the fly. Like, okay, I'm going to have you come. And we're going to have this time together. And they'll stay for a couple hours in chat. And it's like the sweetest thing.

And we look forward to that. And you can't recreate it. You can't like have these moments that you plan out. But when you let them happen and you do open up your home and you do have those times where you're just you're, you know, you're in a. t-shirt and shorts, no makeup. And I'm like, okay, I feel like a big mess right now, but come on over. Yeah. Those things are some of the sweetest times that you'll experience. So for the person who is listening or watching, they're like, okay, yeah, I struggle with people pleasing, but how do I

stop? They know these ideas. I'm supposed to focus on the Lord. I'm not supposed to focus on myself and overfocus on other people. Like, what are some practical steps that they can take or things that they can read or think about or do to try to rid themselves of this burden because it really is a heavy burden. For sure. Yeah, I think it's interesting because as I looked at it, it's interesting that the solution, the key to people pleasing is people pleasing, which sounds so crazy. It's like the cure to a snake bite. Like we have tons of copperheads in our area. And the cure to that is the antivitem of a copperhead. That's what's going to cure your snake bite. but the same way here is we have to realize there's good people pleasing, bad people pleasing.

And the negative side of that, the bad people pleasing is when we are so desperately craving somebody's what they can give to us. Like, what can I get from you? We need to stop asking that question. What can I get out of you? Are you a person of status? Do you have money for me? How are you going to serve me at church?

Like when you walk into church, like, what are you thinking? Are you thinking how, what can I get out of this? well, you're going to live a miserable existence because you are constantly looking for others to approve of you or for them to give to you. And we need to start loving and serving others, asking for nothing in return. When we're willing to give of ourselves, of our time, our energy, our resources, and to be a listening ear for someone, to invite somebody into our crumb filled house, you know, then those are the things that we can see and say, okay, I want to seek to serve others as Christ did, laying down his life. And that will change everything. Because when we're no longer

focused on what that person thinks of me, well, I can serve them. And if they spit in my face, because they hate how I did that, well, I want to do this as unto God, not unto them, not unto men. Not like in Ephesians six, I think versus five through eight or so, it's talking about not doing things with eye service as people pleasers, but doing it as unto God. I think that that will change everything because, like I said, we are so consumed with what people think about us. Like I said, community is good. We were designed for it. But at the end of the day, if that's our end all, if that's where we're going to live and die is upon somebody else's opinion of us, then that is sinful and that is wrong.

And so the encouragement we can take is that when we do that, it will set us free to love and serve others well, not from a toxic place of trying to gain from them what we are craving the most that we can only get from God. But finding our approval and identity in God, then we can go out to love and serve others freely from a place of overflow and joy. not trying to like get something from them. Yeah, that applies to what we do and also applies to the things we say.

I think fear of man either compels us to say things that aren't true or that we don't believe or compels us to stay silent about things that are true and that we do believe. And I think in both areas, we have to consider how Jesus was treated, how the apostles were treated, how Stephen was treated. I mean, Jesus obviously was full of grace and truth. God is love. So he was, is the most loving everything he said and did. He did from a place of profound love. Stephen was also full of grace.

And yet he was stoned to death after saying something that was true, doing the most loving thing he could possibly could, which was sharing the gospel with people who didn't want to hear it because he loved them. And did they say, wow, like you're really. compelling and charismatic. Thank you for that. No, but thank you. No, they were so angry that they killed him and obviously they crucified Jesus. And I think a lot of us think that if we are nicer than God or if we are more winsome and persuasive than God and the apostles and Paul, then maybe we can be liked by the world and be accepted by the church. Maybe we will be like the first Christians who are

just accepted by everyone. I mean, I fall into that. Everyone falls into that. Everyone falls into that. But when you shift your perspective, like you just said to, okay, what glorifies God most in this moment? Some people will love it. Some people will hate it. And that doesn't matter. That frees us so much to simply live in the truth, not living a lie, as you said. And also to just speak what is true. Yes. In the right moment. For sure, 100%. I'm so glad you brought that up, too, because that is something that we know that the world will hate us because they hated Christ. And that is a good reminder too because it is so easy to cower and fear, to not want to speak up, to not want to share the truth.

And I think that that's just another aspect of people pleasing. I'm so glad you mentioned. Yeah, absolutely. Okay. So it comes out January 13th. And so by the time this comes out, you will actually be further along than 24 weeks this episode. and I'm guessing people can get the book. Yes, I believe it's January 14th.

The book comes out the 14th, but if they wanted to pre-order it today, they could. Yes, you can pre-order it wherever books are sold. It's called People Pleaser. And so, yeah. And if you go ahead and pre-order it on Amazon today, then you can, you might even be able to get it tomorrow. Sometimes that happens. Yes, for sure.

Or you can definitely get it soon and be one of the first people to read it. Well, thank you so much, Ginger. I just love your story and I love your boldness. and I know this is going to bless so many people. Thank you. Allie.