Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 113 | Virgil Walker — Abortion Exceptions?

Episode Date: May 17, 2019

Should there be abortion exceptions for rape and incest? What does compassion really look like? What should Christians be saying and doing for the pro-life cause? Virgil Walker from the "Just Thinking" podcast answers these questions and more on today's episode. Copyright Blaze Media All Rights Reserved.

Hey guys, happy Friday. Welcome to the podcast. Today we are going to talk to my friend Virgil Walker of the Just Thinking podcast. You have probably heard of Just Thinking if you've been listening to either their podcast or my podcast for a little bit. I had Darrell Harrison, who is the co-host of Just Thinking a few weeks ago. We talked about wokeness in the church. And Virgil Walker, his expertise is abortion. He does a lot for the pro-life cause. And so we're going to talk about the legislation in Georgia and Alabama, this non-exception or this lack of exception in the Alabama legislation for rape or incest, how we as Christians should view that and really what we should be doing on the front lines of the pro-life cause.

Virgil, thanks so much for joining me. Thank you for having me, Allie. Yeah, first, if you could just tell everyone who might not be, familiar, who you are, what you do, and why you care so much about this issue of abortion. Yeah. Well, I'm Virgil Walker, and I'm part and parcel of the Just Thinking podcast with Darrell Harrison, the famed Darrell Harrison, Darrell Dangerous Harrison. You've interviewed him on your podcast, and so I work side by side with him. I do a lot in the area of abortion. I've been involved in abortion at the abortion mill for the last seven years, so six or seven years,

doing sidewalk ministry and the like, and just an advocate of the pro-life position. Okay, I gotcha. And you work for a church, correct? Correct, correct. Here in the Omaha area, absolutely. Okay, I gotcha. So there's a lot of conversation going on about abortion right now. And this is something that you and I share this passion for the pro-life cause.

I've heard you say before that you are more of an abolitionist than a pro-lifers. So what do you mean by that? Yeah, definitely more of an abolitionist. I think that for the most part, I think pro-life, the pro-lifers get it right. But I think oftentimes we're involved in half measures or we're willing to seed ground on the issue of incest and rape. I mean, you see that in the conversation. As I've been talking, even though the course of the last few days with regard to this particular issue, what you find is that most who argue the pro-life position have ceded the issue of rape and incest.

I mean, it's almost as if they want to steer clear of those two areas in the way of exception. And my thought is it is, it's inconsistent. It's really inconsistent from a standpoint of a biblical worldview. You know, the rape and incest thing has been brought up a lot, this week because of the Alabama legislation. The Georgia legislation, it made an exception for rape and incest. It said, okay, a woman can still get an abortion up to 20 weeks in Georgia if she is a victim of rape or if this is a consequence of incest. A lot of more, a lot of pro-lifers were probably a little bit more comfortable with that, like you said. But Alabama says, sorry, no exceptions. And you

see a lot of people who call themselves pro-life saying, well, well, that's a little too far. So, can you tell me what you would say or how you would kind of confront that kind of caveat? Yeah. I think, again, we have adopted, rather than holding to a biblical worldview of the sovereignty of God and that he is the one who is the giver of life, we've decided that we're going to see that. We're going to put that aside and adopt a secular view where we've elevated our feelings and emotions. And again, I don't say that in a way to minimize a woman who's been traumatized by the issue of rape. I think that's a horrific situation.

And what we need to do with regard to the issue are to separate the two things. One, we've got to separate the issue of the rape and look at that differently. We've conflated the issue of the rape and the life of the child. We've conflated both issues and have made the decision that they should both be treated in the same manner, rather than recognizing that they're two separate issues. The rapist, that situation needs to be adjudicated from a standpoint. I love what your friend Ben Shapiro says, either castrated and or killed, if once that rapist has been proven guilty, I think the worst harm should be done to that individual.

But with regard to the life of the child, we need to hold to a biblical worldview that says that the child is an image bearer of God and is worthy of distinct value, dignity, and worth. And rather than adopting the ideas that the world has given us with regard to feelings and emotion, we need to stop for just a moment, recognize the value of the child and realize the child has done nothing wrong, deserving of death. And I also think we need to think about how to amplify a kind of the culture that says that this is shameful, that carrying a child born out of rape is a shameful situation. We need to recognize the heroic nature of a woman who's gone through that difficult process

and makes the decision to carry a child a term. I was talking with a friend who mentioned the fact that we often quote, you know, Romans 828, that God has given us all things to work together for his good, right? When we think about that, most Christians who are pro-lifers would agree with the fact that we know that all things were together for the good of them that love God and are called according to his purpose, except for in the instance of incest and rape. Those are situations where we've got to realize the sovereignty of God. He is the giver of life and to really think through that process, providing all the support

necessary for a woman so that she can bear the child and either make the choice of giving the child up for adoption or keeping the child as a result. Is there anything that Christians need to be doing? that you mentioned, obviously sticking up for the personhood of the individual from the point of conception, no matter the situation surrounding the conception of the child, also taking care of these moms, making sure that they have the real options that are available. Of course, keeping the child, raising the child, adoption, whatever it is. Is there anything else Christians can be doing as far as, you know, the adoption process, we hear a lot? Adoption is too expensive.

The foster care system is terrible. We hear this as an excuse kind of from the pro-choice side. Is there anything Christians can be doing in those realms to make sure that truly it is as easy as it possibly can be for a woman to give birth to a child and make sure that child is in a good home? Yeah, there are a lot of things that churches in particular believers can do to be supportive. I do, I shared with you earlier. I do sidewalk ministry at an abortion clinic. When I'm there, it is incredibly important to know that I've got an entire church community around me that I can call at a moment's notice if something were to happen right there at the location and everything from providing a place to stay for that woman, if she's in an abusive situation, to providing food, to providing clothing, to providing every single need that she might have up and in two and through adoption.

I think two thoughts. One is often pro-choices try to use the excuse that we can murder a child or that they can murder a child in the womb on the basis of the fact that someone's not adopting that child. And that's a flawed argument. That's a false statement. That life is not a value whether, that life is a value whether or not someone desires it or not. Secondly, Christians can do more. We often make the claim that we are pro-life and yet all we do in a way of advocacy,

that position is every four years voting for the person who claims that they are going to be more pro-life than not. And we've got to step up to do more. I'm thankful that I'm in a place in a space where there is that level of support at the point of need. And we've got to look for ways to advocate, look for ways to be uncomfortable where we can be in an effort to help these women who are really going through some very difficult times. So can you offer any advice? to the man or the woman who doesn't, they don't know where to start. They don't know if there are any pregnancy clinics in their area. They would love to have their church be involved in a pro-life ministry, but maybe their church

isn't. How did they start doing something like you're doing or just to start making that connection between mothers in crisis and whatever sphere they're currently involved in? Yeah. I completely appreciate the question that you asked because I remember at the point. at which I got interested in this issue, began to educate myself. My first thought was, where do I go? Like, I had no one to show me what it looked like to be on the sidewalk at an abortion clinic. And while some people are willing to do that, others are not. There's all kinds of

pregnancy advocacy places in town where I live. There's a sure women's clinic. We do, they do a lot of great work. So you've got to find where there are organizations who are already doing the work, where you can plug in, where you can be a part of. I think those kinds of things are definitely important. We've got to seek those out and do more than simply every four years, vote for the person that we think is going to advocate for our position. I'm even concerned. And, Ali, I wanted to throw something back to you really quickly, if I could. I'm concerned about where things go from here with regard to the Supreme Court. We know that this decision that's happened in Georgia was designed for the purpose of getting thrown back into, you know, the Supreme

Court to challenge Roe v. Wade, you know, I don't, I don't know about you. I don't know that I have the confidence to believe that things will be overturned. And I really think that most conservatives will be reeling at that point, if, if indeed, you know, Roe v. Wade is not overturned based upon this case. You have any thoughts about that? I would say, considering how Kavanaugh has ruled on a other cases, not even involving Planned Parenthood or abortion. It looks like he's leaning further to the left than a lot of us had hoped. Now, he might call himself personally pro-life. We know that he's Catholic. A lot of the Catholic community considers themselves pro-life, but sometimes you have some cognitive dissonance where people say, well, I'm personally pro-life,

but I don't want to limit the rights of other people. I don't know if Kavanaugh falls into that camp. And so judging by Kavanaugh, I don't think that we are going to get the ruling on Roe v. Wade that we want. Now, I could psychoanalyze Kavanaugh and say maybe it's because he wants to show the left who hated him so much that he's really not going to do all the terrible things that he said that, or that they said he was going to do. I'm not sure his motives behind that. And I can't predict necessarily what's going to happen. I was more optimistic. just at the thought of thinking, okay, we've got a, like you said, a more pro-life than not, or a more pro-life than Hillary Clinton president. And so we've got a few Supreme Court vacancies

up for grabs. And so it's a possibility that this could happen. But unfortunately, unfortunately, probably people like Kavanaugh and maybe some other conservative justices, too, I'm just not sure, have bought into this lie that, you know, being, all the way pro-life is too extreme. It's too extreme. And maybe Planned Parenthood does do some good things. And it may be abortion in some cases is really compassionate. I like what you are saying about being an abolitionist.

I think too many people are scared to really say that, including people in power. Do you agree? I completely agree. In fact, most of the conversations that I've had since this legislation got enacted with Christians is, yeah, I'm pro-life. But, I mean, that's, it's, in fact, I mean, you could, you could say this is a new, I think this issue is bringing up even the clarity of thought or at least an opportunity for people to begin thinking about their, their true position. And what I'm running into is this new category of Christian calling themselves pro-life but. And it's a shame because they're looking at it from, I believe,

from a secular perspective, rather than from a consistently biblical, worldview as we talked about being image bearers of God. I think we've got to look at that. We've got to examine that and even be willing to say how much of that was taught to us by our own, quote, unquote, pro-life movement. That's why I've distanced myself a bit from saying I'm pro-life to telling people I'm an abolitionist. While I recognize that that has its own connotation to it, because there's a group out there and doing some different things that I disagree with, I do agree from a standpoint of we need to be all about the abolition of abortion. And that means not just legislatively, but also in creating a culture of life to make,

I've heard this phrase before and I really like it, making abortion unthinkable or as unthinkable as possible. There's always going to be evil in the world. There's always going to be people that insist upon killing their child for whatever desperate, you know, reason they feel like they have. that's always going to exist. No law can outlaw all kinds or every single kind of evil. But legislatively and also in what you're doing and what a lot of people are doing is making sure these women are cared for.

I think the biggest myth that we hear from pro-choicers is that people who don't like abortion are only pro what they call forced birth, that we're only for birthing the child and then we want to abandon the child. And they usually say that's because we don't agree with their government programs. We don't agree with all the stuff that they believe the government should be doing. So we must not really be pro-life. I think I know what you're going to say, but what do you say in response to that? Well, one, there's never justified reason to end the life of a child, first of all, never justified reason. But more times than not, I mean, the people that I know who care the most in those instances and who are willing to care are not folks advocating for the death of a child in the womb.

It's those of us who are believers who are advocating for life who are willing to help, who are reaching out and trying to do more than others to see a child taken care of. One of the things that's been interesting to me as well in addition to the rhetoric is the lack of of the arguments that are being made from the other side. I mean, they just, they have no substance to them whatsoever. They are either ad hominem attacks or genetic fallacies rather than anything substantive that really anchor our position. Like if I'm going to argue with someone, I'm going to at least want to make sure that I'm properly categorizing what they believe.

I'm properly articulating what they believe. And none of them understand that at the end of the day, the argument that we're that we're positing is this is a human life. And we need to treat the human life in the womb in the same way that we would treat a human life at any other stage of development. No one seems to get that on the other side. And so they're coming up. And I know you saw the argument about these white men who advocated this position. I wondered your thoughts about that as well. Yeah. Well, neither of us are white men. And we are having this conversation. And I think it's just a way You said so many good things there.

And one of the things that I just wonder, and you don't want to assume always bad motives on the other, on the side of the people that you are disagreeing with, it's, I think, particularly hard to do that with abortion just because the other side, the reality that they're advocating for, whether they know it or not, is so grotesque and is so black and white, that it's really difficult not to assume bad motives. But even if we were to give the benefit of the doubt to most people, I think there are a lot of people on the pro-choice side that do realize the argument that we're making, that do understand the argument that we're making, but they know that if they do, the way that

you said, if they do say, I understand what you're saying, Virgil or Ali, that this is a human being, that this is just an early stage of development, but I still think it's okay to kill a human being. That makes their arguments sound really bad, and they know that. That is very brutal. And most of them, they're just not willing to verbalize that because it hurts their conscience too much, which should tell you something about the human heart. But I think it makes them feel better. It puts a balm on their guilt or shame to say, well, this is not a human being. This is not a person. It just reminds me the kind of dehumanizing language that we hear from them to justify their arguments.

it reminds me so much of the arguments made for slavery. And I wonder if you agree with that since you call yourself an abolitionist. Absolutely. I mean, the same arguments that are being positive today are the same ones that were that were posited during the time of slavery. It's the devaluing of a human being who's created in God's image. The arguments today are my body, my choice. The arguments back then were my slave, my property.

And so those are the same arguments that we're being positive then, that are being positive now. And the interesting thing is, like you said, they recognize that in the public arena, in social media, in media in particular, their arguments sound very, very harsh. And they recognize those don't hit the ear very well. But what's interesting, Allie, is at the abortion clinic, these women are making those arguments. These women walking into these abortion clinics, I was there this past Mother's Day weekend. They don't care. They recognize this is a human life. I'm calling out to them, letting them know, hey, we're here to help you.

We're here because we care about you. You don't have to end the life of your child. I know you're doing this to cover, perhaps cover sin in an area of your life. But, man, Christ died for your sins. There's no reason for that. We're here to help you. We love you. These women flip me off.

They'll tell me they know it's a human. human being and walk right into the abortion clinic. And so it's a different thing at the point of, you know, where rubber meets the road, so to speak. But I recognize that, you know, in the, you know, in the area of social media, in the area of media in general, those arguments don't play well. But they do, they do coincide with the same arguments that were being had during the time of slavery. And what you obviously realize just from that short story that you just told me, and what I think a lot of Christians maybe sometimes forget or don't want to think about because it's just another layer of discomfort. But the answer to this essentially and ultimately is the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Because you mentioned that these women get very angry when you mention sin or Jesus or what they're doing. And you just look at either Romans 1 or you look at Ephesians 4 that says they are darkened in their understanding. Why? Because they don't know God. It says they are callous. They are ignorant in their hardness of heart. And when I think about so many people that are adamantly pro-abortion or pro-what-they-call-choice, it, Ephesians 4 rings so true that it is callousness, it's ignorance, it's darkness, it's a hardness of heart. And what can soften all of those things? Only Jesus Christ. That is it. And I think a lot of Christians, even well-intentioned Christians, they don't want to believe that that is the ultimate answer because, again, sharing the gospel for a lot of people feels very awkward. Absolutely. Absolutely. I think, one, you're spot on with that. Two, I think we're going to come face to face with that if, indeed, the Roe v. Wade decision, you know, goes the wrong way. Let's say this goes to the Supreme Court. And, you know, Roe v. Wade's not turned around. I know that there'll be people continuing to advocate for that. I think a lot of Christians will be disheartened by that. But at the end of the day, I think you landed spot on it, which is the other day I was listening

to one of your relatable podcasts where you quoted from Romans 118, you walked us through 28 through 32. And you talked about all the things that are in the heart of mankind and that we not only agree with those things, we give hearty approval to those that do. And I think when you look at that reality, even in the life of, believers where we've allowed some issues around this abortion to cloud our mind rather than holding to a biblical worldview, there will be a cost. And ultimately, at the end of the day, we've got to get back to the proclamation of the gospel. At the end of the day, the proclamation

of the gospel that changes the hearts of the human condition is what will turn this around. Right. One thing that I did want to get your insight on, I think I've heard you talk about this before, but how abortion, this is switching gears just a little bit, but how, abortion disproportionately affects impoverished communities, minority communities, and in particular, the black community, and how that point seems to be completely ignored by the side that is so quick in every other situation to call out racism. Right, right. Well, I think between you and I, you being a female, me being a black male, we can put our intersectionality points together and maybe speak with a little bit of authority on this particular issue. And that is the reality that

that when I'm at the abortion cling, one of the things that I think is interesting or surprising, at least for women who are driving in disproportionately in Nebraska, where I'm from, black to represent 6% of the population, but represent about 28% of abortions that are taking place in the state disproportionately affecting us. In other areas, it's even worse. I've heard you talk about the fact that in New York, that there are more black babies who are murdered in the womb than are actually born. We know that statistic well, but it disproportionately affects black communities.

And if those who really believe that black lives do matter, they would find themselves on the front lines at abortion clinics to ensure that the black genocide that is taking place stops immediately. And I think women who come to the abortion clinic are often shocked or surprised to see a black male there at the clinic. And so I do feel at times that I have an extra opportunity. to share with them, hey, black lives do matter. If you want to use that language, if you want to use that mantra from your secular worldview, if black lives matter, they should matter today, and it should

keep you from aborting your child. And every time they hear that mantra, I want them to remember if they go through with that abortion on that day, they weren't thinking that that black life mattered much. Now, there's definitely forgiveness through Jesus Christ and by way of repentance of sin and placing faithful, faith in him. But I want them to recognize that, acknowledge that, and to keep them from walking into the evil that they're about to do as they murder their child in the womb. Well, I think that this fight is just beginning for unborn lives. And if we think that, if we think, and I do agree that in some ways the pro-life cause has gained a lot of ground. and we have done wonderful things

or the abolitionist cause against abortion has done wonderful things and God has given us so much grace and so much power and so much discernment in this. But it is also easy to look at the arguments from the other side, to look at the things going on in particular states like New York and be scared and be disheartened.

And just for me, there's no other issue that makes me just want to pull my hair out and say, what how the heck can people have this mentality and where in the world are we going so if you could just give some advice some encouragement to people who they might be happy about the Georgia and Alabama legislation but they're feeling scared nervous confused helpless out of control um they want to do something for unborn babies and women they don't know what and they don't know if anything it's going to be fruitful, can you just give some, a charge to them maybe?

Yeah, yeah. What you said reminds me of when I first kind of got into this about six or seven years ago, as the issue began to get real to me and I felt like I've got to do something but had no idea what to do, man, I began to seek out people who knew more than I did about the issue, who understood the issue well and gave examples of how to go about fighting. this particular issue, whether that means finding someone who's at an abortion clinic doing a sidewalk ministry, whether that's at an advocacy clinic where you could spend time there with those folks, whether it's praying. Oftentimes I'll post on Facebook when I'm headed out to the abortion clinic. And I'll just ask people to pray for me. And because again, I recognize that in those spaces and places at the end of the day, and this is the one thing that all of us need to remember. And that is God is sovereign. and that if he wanted to wipe things out tomorrow, he would indeed do it. And we pray earnestly for him to do just that.

In the meantime, we have to be faithful to telling truth, to sharing that truth and love and operating from a standpoint of the absolute proclamation of the gospel, which is what's required to see hearts changed and transformed and folks receive repentance, faith in Christ, and follow him all the days of their lives. Amen. Thank you so much for all of your insight and thank you for what you do and for leading by example. And I know that you don't take credit for any of it and that it's all the Holy Spirit through you. But thank you anyway for that. And of course, thank the Lord for what he's doing through you and what he's doing through that ministry and how many lives have been changed for generations to come. So I just want you to know that you are appreciated.

Oh, thank you for having me. So appreciate it a bunch. Appreciate you with Daryl and myself with just thinking. And we definitely want to wish you all the best as you get ready to have a brand new baby. We'll definitely be praying for you and looking forward to when you, I know you're going to take a little bit of a hiatus of break. We'll definitely miss you and look forward to when you get back. We just know that we watch you, follow you and our big fans. Thank you so much. And if you will just tell everyone real fast, If you'll just tell everyone where they can find Just Thinking or where they can find you if you want them to follow you on social media or wherever you want to direct them. Well, you can catch me on Twitter, Virgil, W-L-K-R. So Virgil, G-I-R-O-K-R, Omaha, which is kind of my moniker on the Just Thinking podcast.

You can find Just Thinking wherever you download your podcast on Apple or iTunes and or Android. And so, yeah, I would love to connect with you. Love to check us out at Just Thinking. And I definitely appreciate having me on, Allie. Thank you so much, Virgil. I appreciate it. I hope you guys enjoyed that conversation. He is such a good example for all of us just to be bold in our faith.

A lot of times, I'm probably guilty of this as well when I am contending with the other side forgetting that the essential problem with those. who think that unborn life is expendable is that they don't know God, is that they don't know Jesus Christ, and that is the capacity for all of us. Now, there are people who don't know God who are pro-life, but even that is wisdom and grace from God that they understand that life inside the womb is made in the image of God. But as Christians, we know that for sure. We are convicted by that in our souls and in our hearts. There is no way to get around that. If we are children of God, recognize the value of vulnerable life and we care about life, not just inside the womb,

but we also care about these mothers. And it is our responsibility to do something for life that starts at conception and also these mothers who find themselves in crisis situations, but to create an entire culture of life to make them feel helped and cared for. That is part of what it means. That's an example of what it means to be the hands and feet of Jesus. I'm thankful for Virgil. He's certainly challenging. me. I hope you feel that way as well. And I hope you feel enlightened and encouraged by that conversation. I hope you guys have an awesome weekend. And I will see you on Monday for Theology Mondays.