Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 1144 | The Theological Errors of Gentle Parenting | Guest: Abbie Halberstadt

Episode Date: February 20, 2025

Today, we sit down with Abbie Halberstadt, author and host of the "M Is for Mama Podcast," to discuss motherhood and parenting. She shares her motherhood journey with 10 children, including two sets of twins with the same birthday, and offers faith-based parenting advice on navigating the mental and emotional challenges of postpartum motherhood. We also discuss the differences between gentle parenting and godly parenting and the best way to honor God for your children. Abbie also explains how parents can embrace the difference between hard and bad and how families can equip themselves to thrive even in the hard seasons. Buy Abbie's book, "Hard Is Not the Same Thing as Bad: The Perspective Shift That Could Completely Change the Way You Mother": https://a.co/d/dEIk2IL Buy Allie's new book, "Toxic Empathy: How Progressives Exploit Christian Compassion": https://a.co/d/4COtBxy --- Timecodes: (00:55) Abbie Halberstadt introduction (02:09) Having 10 children (07:30) How Abbie met her husband (12:35) Having children (17:47) Giving birth with no C-sections (26:54) Postpartum mental health (33:31) Gentle parenting vs. Godly parenting (49:38) Enforcing boundaries & discipline with young children (53:49) “Hard Is Not the Same Thing as Bad” ---   Today's Sponsors: We Heart Nutrition — Get 20% off women's vitamins with We Heart Nutrition, where 10% of every purchase supports pregnancy care centers; use code ALLIE at https://www.WeHeartNutrition.com. EveryLife — The only premium baby brand that is unapologetically pro-life. EveryLife offers high-performing, supremely soft diapers and wipes that protect and celebrate every precious life. Head to EveryLife.com and use promo code ALLIE10 to get 10% of your first order today! Masa Chips — Go to MasaChips.com and use promo code ALLIEB for a discount on your first time order of seed oil free tortilla chips! Pre-Born — Will you help rescue babies' lives? Donate by calling #250 & say keyword 'BABY' or go to Preborn.com/ALLIE. BlazeTV — Watch episode four of ‘The Coverup: Smoking Gun’ on BlazeTV, releasing Thursday. Become a subscriber at faucicoverup.com/ALLIE and use code “SMOKINGGUN” for $30 off your subscription. --- Links: M is for Mama Podcast https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/m-is-for-mama-podcast/id1664528555 The Gentleness Challenge https://misformama.net/product/the-gentleness-challenge-ebook --- Related Episodes: Ep 1123 | Why Boys Are Failing Kindergarten | Guest: Dr. Leonard Sax https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/ep-1123-why-boys-are-failing-kindergarten-guest-dr/id1359249098?i=1000684140603 Ep 963 | The Dangers of Gentle Parenting, SEL & Empathy | Guest: Abigail Shrier https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/ep-963-the-dangers-of-gentle-parenting-sel-empathy/id1359249098?i=1000648254377 Ep 903 | My Birth Story with a VBA2C https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/ep-903-my-vbac-birth-story/id1359249098?i=1000634048843 Ep 895 | Is Motherhood God's Plan for Every Woman? | Q&A https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/ep-895-is-motherhood-gods-plan-for-every-woman-q-a/id1359249098?i=1000632479757 ---   Buy Allie's book, You're Not Enough (& That's Okay): Escaping the Toxic Culture of Self-Love: https://alliebethstuckey.com/book Relatable merchandise – use promo code 'ALLIE10' for a discount: https://shop.blazemedia.com/collections/allie-stuckey

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You guys will love this conversation. It's brought to you by our friends at Good Ranchers. Go to Good Ranchers.com. Use Code Allie at checkout. That's good ranchers.com. Code Allie. Abby, thanks so much for taking the time to join us. A lot of people know who you are, but for those who don't, can you tell everyone who you are and what you do?

Yeah, yeah. My name is Abby Halberstadt. And I am a mama to 10. I have a podcast called Emma's for Mama, and that is kind of my whole brand book, blog that I've done for like 14 years, podcast. And on the podcast, I always start out saying, happy wife, mama to 10 Bible believing Christian, ending with the most important thing. Yes. And so I am a homeschool mama to 10 kids. I never planned to have 10 kids. You're going to hear a lot of moms of many say this. Like very few of us were like, I am gunning for a specific number. Yeah. But this is what the Lord blessed me with. In fact, I have one brother and everybody always assumes, you must have a lot of siblings or this must be what your norm was growing up. Very much of the opposite. I'm the youngest of two.

Knew nothing about kids. Hadn't changed but a handful of diapers maybe in church nursery or something. And so this whole process of becoming mama to so many has surprised me as much as it's surprised anybody else that freaks out about it. But the Lord's been good. I mean, he's with us every step of the way. And it's really, really fun. to get to be a mom of so many, but really challenging. Yeah. So if you say that you didn't plan it,

you didn't go into marriage thinking, we're going to have 10 children, how did this come about? At what point did you and your husband decide, okay, we're just not going to prevent. And however many children the Lord wants to give us, that's what we're going to have. Right. So my mom did a really good job of talking to me about things like birth control, hormonal both control and the downsides to it. Talk to me about the sovereignty of God. I mean, we had some deep theological and medical conversations when I was a teenager. And neither my husband nor I had sexual partners before we got married. And so neither one of us were having, you know, scares with pregnancy or trying to prevent with any kind of pills or anything like that. And I really

took to heart, even as a teenager, the exhortation for Proverbs 3, 5, and 6, trust in the Lord with all your heart. Lean not on your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge him. And he will make your path straight. Because I feel like we tend to kind of do this little in some of your ways acknowledge him. In the easy, comfortable, safe ways acknowledge him. And I know what that feels like. Believe me, I'm not one that love surprises or likes to not feel in control. It's not about that. It's just, there was just this burning conviction in my heart that all your ways included fertility. And so I was actually engaged to a different guy before I married my husband. And one of the sticking points was birth control because I had this conviction not to do that to my body,

not to engage in something that could be abortifation and kill an embryo. And he just wasn't on the same page. It wasn't what broke us up, but I knew that I was going to make that something that I presented to any future potential spouse pretty early in the game. In the case of my husbands and my relationship, it was our second date. We're sitting in the car. picking me up from a concert that I already was going to go to and he didn't have a ticket to. So he picked me up afterwards. We're sitting in the car. I have no idea how I seguated into this. I probably knowing my personality just jumped right in. And I remember telling him, these are my convictions,

you know, because neither one of us was a real lighthearted type when it came to dating. We weren't going to date unless it was something we wanted to pursue as someone that we might marry. How old are you? I was 21. Okay. And so I kind of laid out. this like, I want to honor my body in this way. That might mean that I end up with a lot of kids with whomever I end up with could be like six. I remember saying that number. Something crazy. Yeah. Crazy. It did feel crazy. I just didn't have a point of reference. I didn't know anyone, hardly that had that many children. Most of us don't. I didn't either. One or two siblings. That's all of my friends. I'm one of three. Same deal. Well, and I did grow up homeschooled and we had

several families that had larger numbers of siblings, but it just wasn't something that daily effect in my life, I would say. And little did I know that my husband, who is the middle of three whole boys, like not a big family either, although these days, sometimes three is considered crazy. A lot. Yeah. Yeah. That he was thinking like, oh, eight sounds like a fun number. And he didn't say that out loud in that moment, but he just kind of looked at me in his steady, calm way that I love about him so much and was like, all right, I can deal with that. Yeah. Which was the complete opposite of what I dealt with before in another relationship where lots of things have been compatible, but like the conviction wasn't matching. And I remember just kind of staring at him because I had

expected something else and thinking, okay, this could work. It absolutely did work. First sponsor is WeHeart Nutrition. I've told you about my supplement journey with WeHeart Nutrition. I started taking them sometime in at the beginning of 2024. And at the end of 23, I was getting sick all the time. I just felt really run down. I mean, I was postpartum, so I wasn't getting a lot of sleep, but I just felt like I shouldn't be getting sick as much as I was. And I was taking my vitamins every day. I'd been taking my prenatals. I had been using the same company for a long time. But then I switched to WeHeart nutrition. And I think it's made a huge difference in my health and my immunity. You know, my kids, they all had the flu a couple weeks ago.

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Yeah. So I was the coordinator for a 20-somethings group at our church. He was a non-believer. And one of my non-negotiables, of course, as a believer since I was five years old, like I remember the moment that I prayed and asked Jesus to be the Lord of my life. that, of course, I was never going to date anybody that wasn't a believer. So he was a non-believer. He was coming to our church and hanging out at the events, but as kind of a spectator or

a skeptic. He was probably beyond the skepticism phase at that point. He was a seeker, I would say, and the Lord was clearly seeking him. But he wasn't a Christian, and he was coming with some friends, and I was the coordinator for this 20-somethings group, and I would send out these emails. While I'm a total word nerd, I can't send out normal. emails. You know, there were references to Jane Austen. There were jokes that people probably thought were corny because they were, you know, and he totally got them and he loved them. So if he

RSVP to something, he never sent a normal RSVP. It was always quirky and clever and witty. And it was also spelled and punctuated really well. I'm a total grammar note. I was an English teacher for years and have an English degree. And so that kind of thing draws my attention is really a attractive to me. I know people are like, happy, why do you care? But I do. No, I totally get it. And he cares. And so that caught my attention. His humor caught my attention. His good looks caught my attention. His athleticism. But then we have this problem. He's not a Christian. But he was clearly a person of integrity. Even without Christ in his life, he was very respectful.

I remember for my 21st birthday, he showed up because he had building experience with his dad. And he's actually since gone on to build us three different structures, two of which we live in, well, lived in then currently live in and then a sport court so he can do it all at the time i didn't know all of that but he showed up to help this building project he didn't know our family well and he stayed for hours and busted his tail and worked really hard and was super respectful to my family and i was like this guy's different yeah um so after weeks months really of showing up to all these events we were kind of flirting back and forth through email but i was like this can't go anywhere and then there was another dude that was interested in me that I was tutoring in Spanish, air quotes, because I knew the real

reason that he wanted me to teach him Spanish. I was also a Spanish major and teacher for several years. And he really wanted, you know, to spend time with me, but he wasn't declaring himself. Yeah. And so at one of these Spanish sessions, he, not knowing that I had any interest in Sean, told me, hey, Sean became a believer like last week. And I mean, if he hadn't been paying attention before, he was probably like, why did she get so interested at all of those? I was, I think. came up. I was like, what? Adios. Yeah, I know. I mean, bye. Yeah, that's right. Adios. And so the minute I found that out, it was game on. And also, it was game on for him because he also knew that he couldn't pursue me without that. Like, he just, he got that. And he'd

picked that up for me for sure. And he was so bold. I remember he called me on my little Nokia brick cell phone, my red Nokia phone from whatever year of this is, 2004. or three or something like that. And I didn't know the number. Normally I wouldn't have picked up, but for some reason I did. I was on a subway with my mom. And one of the things he had teased me about was that in my email, it showed my middle initial, which is E. So he had made up a name for it. And he was teasing. He was calling it Ermintrude. So you said, oh, your middle name must be, you know, just to be silly. Yeah. Kind of thing sounds cheesy now, but I thought it was hilarious. Yeah. And so I answered my phone and he says, hello, is this Erman Trude? And there's like this

long pause and then I proceed to guffaw like just laugh out loud and every person in subway turns around and looks at me. Yeah. Because I'm just, of course, thrilled that this guy is calling you. He asked me out. Just as a total gentleman completely direct after this other guy who was super sweet had been pursuing me for months but never like declaring what was going on. It was really attractive that he was so bold. And the rest of this kind of history, we dated for eight months and we're engaged for eight months and got married in 2005. And you were already engaged though. time before that. Yeah, it had been, it had been a year since I had been engaged. So I was really, really young when I got engaged. I would think I was 19, which I wouldn't have pictured either.

I don't know what I pictured. I didn't have like my life planned out, but I don't think I would have thought I would have been engaged at 19. But yeah. Yes. And then you met Sean. You got married when you were about 22. 22. And y'all had already had the conversation. We had already had the talk. This is what our child bearing is basically going to look like according to the Lord's Providence. And so tell us about the early years of marriage, your first baby. Yeah. So we didn't do anything to prevent anything. And we, and I had a teaching job as a high school Spanish teacher.

I'd already taught for three years. But this was a new position at a new place right after we got married. and I got pregnant three months after we got married. And my mom, quote unquote, only had two kids because that's what the Lord gave her. She never prevented anything. She never tried not to have more kids. And her story is one of repetitive miscarriages. And so that could have been my story, too.

You know, I had no idea whether I would be super fertile or not. And nothing to give me as a kind of touch point to know what to expect. So we didn't get pregnant for three months. And I remember when I announced the pregnancy, which was several months later, like I didn't say anything about being pregnant until I was like 20 weeks or something because like first baby, you don't show that much. And I remember our guidance counselor at this Christian private school that I was teaching at when she found out that I was pregnant early on in marriage said, oops, accidents happen. Oh, that's horrible. I know. And my mouth fell open at 42 now.

I know exactly what I would have told her. I would have said nothing is an accident. God is sovereign. And he created this baby at this exact moment in time and chose me to be their mom. And I'm so grateful for that and so happy about this. That is not what came out of my mouth at 22. I just kind of stared and laughed, even though I didn't think it was funny. Yeah. And didn't say anything. Just kind of left the room in shame. And that's a story that I hear a lot from moms when they're kind of belittled for their choices with fertility. They're just like, I don't know what to say. I didn't know what to do. And it's sad. But it's understandable, too, because our culture has really, really conditioned us to view children as a burden and to view it as something that you put off until you're ready and to finagle timing and to be in control and all of those things.

Well, here we are rejoicing because I wasn't due until the week of finals. And I was like, look at your timing, Lord. I get to teach the whole year. And then if I choose to come back, have the entire summer to have a new baby, I thought God's timing was really cool. Yeah. And so, you know, perspective is what it's all about. Yeah. And I literally gave birth to my first son one week before our first wedding anniversary and one week after finals ended. Wow. It's perfect timing. Wow. We love every life in our home.

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Therefore. and you've got two sets of twins eight years apart to the day. Yes, they share the same birthday, which always blows people's minds. We do have two sets of twins, and I think I mentioned just a little while ago something about like, you know, I struggle with God's sovereignty too or not always being open-handed. The number one thing, or pretty much the only thing that I really reserved for myself, as if I had any control over it, was, okay, Lord, give us the children you have for us. We're open to whatever, you know, just one at a time.

Like, don't do this multiple things. That sounds terrible. Like, that was my viewpoint on twins. So we've actually been pregnant with twins three times. Our first set are 12. Evianola, they are identical girl twins. And then right after them, our next son, Theo, had an identical twin that we lost to vanishing twin syndrome.

And he also would have been a monodytwin, which is where you have, an egg that splits basically into two amniotic sacks, but they share one placenta. It's unusual for you to have one set of identical twins. And then to be pregnant twice with twins is unusual. And then our third set is also identical as well. And then they ended up coming on the same day, which is crazy. Which is crazy. And I don't know if this is TMI, but we've talked about like birth and my birth story is on here. You said, I think on Instagram, that you've never had a C-section. Correct. That is amazing. Have you ever had like pregnant? and see complications or birth complications that I ever put any fear in your mind about having more kids?

No. And I, one of my mentors, Jennifer Flanders, she has 12 kids. She's about 17 years ahead of me. I love her grace-filled approach to this topic because she always says, I don't presume to know what I would do. I trust fully in the sovereignty of God, but I don't presume to know what I would do or what my husband would want us to do if I were experiencing hypermesis gravidarium and in the hospital. every time I got pregnant. And I wasn't. Neither was I. She wasn't. Neither was I. If I had a super traumatic birth and the doctor is recommending for, you know, certain procedures, she's like, I don't presumed to know. I would have had to cross that path when I got to it. In my case, I've had pretty straightforward pregnancies. Both of my sets of twins were considered high risk because of the fact that they, they only have one placenta to support both of them. And, well, twins,

are just kind of high risk anyway, I suppose. But, and then I've definitely had struggles during pregnancy, but none that absolutely kept me from being able to do daily life for the most part. And then my second set of twins, my first I had at home and was one of the best births of- You had your first set of twins at home. Yeah. How many weeks gestation? 39 weeks and four days.

You made it to almost 40 weeks with both sets of twins or just the first? The second was 37 weeks and two days. That's still amazing. Yeah. Because sometimes twins come really early, 34 weeks even. Well, and talking about perspective, one of the things my amazing midwife who delivered my first set of twins told me, she said, you will be told if you go the alopathic route, if you've got kind of the traditional route with multiples or with a lot of birthing experiences. And they can be great. But she said, especially with multiples and the high risk factor, you will be told that you will probably have these babies by 35 weeks.

There's so much mindset that's in. involved in here. I want you to assume, because I keep babies in, I have babies at 42 weeks. Me too. I know. I've done that. All of my kids have come in around 42 weeks. I know. It's miserable until you just decide you get two bonus weeks of dates and like maybe nights. Exactly. Eating whatever you want to. Yeah. You're just like whatever, man. We're just going with it. So she said you go to 42 weeks with singletons. We're going for 40. Yeah. And she told me to eat a ton of protein to keep the amniotic sacks strong. She told me to keep moving. I'm a fitness instructor and I exercised throughout the entire pregnancy because it felt good. I mean, in the exact moment,

it didn't feel good a lot of times, but it kept my energy up. It gave me stamina. I knew I wanted to be strong during birth. And so my first set were born at home. One was seven pounds and one was six and a half pounds almost. Well, six pounds, five ounces, but close enough. And, uh, It was the best birth I've ever had. It was a phenomenal birth. So my second set, I really wanted to do home again. But the midwife I was using, my first midwife that helped me through that whole process actually had a stroke and died. Oh my gosh. I know. But again, Lord's timing. Yes, it was so sad. She was really young. She was like 62. And she was such a help to so many people. I actually got shingles right after I had Evianola. And it was horrible time to get shingles. Well, and it was probably the birth and, you know, all that. all the stresses you're going through feeding two babies at night and stuff. And she got me through it, whereas doctors were like, you're going to have to stop breastfeeding. You're going to have to. And she was like, nope, we're going to do this protocol and you're going to be okay. And I was. So she was such a godsend. So it was a different midwife, equally wonderful, but she was closing down

in practice and wasn't delivering at home anymore. So I actually split care between her and a traditional OBGYN, but I had to deliver in an OR. So very different experience. Oh, okay. First baby came out great. Second baby was like. like this, here I am straight up and down. He was transverse straight across presenting with his arms still in the sack. But if the sack had broken, which it was very likely about to, the cord was presenting as well, it would have come out and I would have had to have a C-section. Like there was a delivery, there was like a surgery table like right there. They were ready to do it. Yeah. And my OBGYN got up in there. It was the first epidural I've ever had. It wore off an

hour before I delivered them. So it was gone. Which, I mean, I did transition with it. So it was an interesting experience. And she got up in there with this epidural worn off and physically turned him and pulled him out. He came out gray and floppy, not breathing very well at all. And I'm holding a baby on my chest trying to see what's going on. And they're pulling him away for oxygen. And afterwards, I remember my midwife who got to attend. This was 2020.

So there was weird stuff going on in delivery rooms all across the world. Yes. But thankfully, my OBGYN was like, no, nope, we're declaring her and your husband, necessary medical personnel. they're going to be there. It was great. So my midwife told me, listen, we would have done all the things that she did if you'd had him at home. But when he didn't respond to oxygen the first time, we would have gotten an ambulance. So seeing the Lord's sovereignty and having me in the right place, even though that's not where I wanted to be, was amazing and so reassuring. I think that's a really

important lesson because a lot of us have like birth regret or things that happen to us during birth that just make us sad or we just wish that things had gone differently. I had that a lot with just my first two, but especially my first because it truly was an unnecessary C-section and I didn't know any better at the time. But at the end of the day, I do have to trust, like I can take lessons from that and I did because I ended up having a V-back after two C-sections. But I can do that while also trusting in the Lord's sovereignty that there could have been things that I did not see that I did not know and that God in that moment was working all things, even the chaotic things together for my good and for his glory. And I think women need to hear that during birth because

so often women are dismissed like their fears or their sadness or whatever it is when it comes to the actual labor and delivery. While at the same time, I think there's a balance. Some people allow that fear to stop them from having more kids or stop them from having kids altogether. Yeah, I have a friend who has seven who is, I mean, she's in her 60s at this point. Most of her kids are grown. She had seven C-sections. Wow. And every single time it is. And I'm not, this is someone's going to be like, Abby, don't tell people this. You're not, you know, shouldn't advocate for this. I'm not advocating for it. I'm just sharing an example of the Lord's goodness and faithfulness to answer when we ask for wisdom because the Bible says that he will. That's one of the promises from Scripture that

he will freely give us wisdom when we seek it. So each time she had a C-section, she asked her doctor to do an ultrasound and check the, like, the thickness of her womb and make sure that things, and she had a doctor who was willing to give her a thumbs up or a thumbs down. And after her seventh, which was in her 40s, because she had an odd, like, she had a baby at like 30, didn't have another one for years and then boom, boom, boom, boom, had six more in like her late 30s and early 40s. Wow. Completely not what we would expect as a normal birth trajectory. And the doctor finally told her, I wouldn't recommend having another one. And her husband sat down beside the bed, and they prayed for the Lord to open her and close her womb, according to his will,

she never got pregnant again. And she had been getting pregnant every year for the last, like, seven years. So this is not medical advice. Don't freak out. But I just hearing her say, like, that the goodness of the Lord and his direction was so clear through her husband's prayer was just, I don't know, it was really cool. So I am a big fan of chips and guac. You know, I grew up in Texas and so I'm a Tex-Mex girl.

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Go to Mossa chips. dot com. Use my code AllieB. You'll get a discount on your order. I love these things. MasaChips.com promo code AllieB. Did you ever go through postpartum anxiety or depression or, you know, sometimes people talk about postpartum rage, which I don't know, maybe it's a part of either of those things? Yeah. So I am a coper and a compensator, probably to a fault. So there are things I don't realize are going on until after when I can look back and I feel better. I think that's a lot of people. That's not like a badge of honor. I think that's how we function as moms a lot of times. You have to do what you have to do. And so you get through it. Looking back, I think I had mild

postpartum depression after Avianola. I can just remember periods where I just felt really blank when I knew I should feel happy. Like things were going really well. It'd be a happy family moment. And I was just kind of there. My hormones regulated in about six months. And it wasn't anything that I felt like was insurmountable, but, and even at the time, I was just kind of getting through it. And afterwards, I was like, oh, that wasn't me. Like, that was, that was a different person for a while, you know. And so sometimes there are periods like that. And then after our seventh, so I mentioned my husband has built a couple of our houses and he really does do like almost all the work with his dad, who was a contractor. And so when I was pregnant with and right after I had our number seven,

we were building our second house, which was a two-year build. And I was doing a lot of solo parenting, a lot of solo homeschooling, a lot of solo, all the things. But when you have a goal you're working toward, you can do it together, and it's a short-term thing. But after we moved in, my four-month-old had a sleep regression. I had red dirt everywhere in my house because it was sort of kind of finished, but not completely. And there's seas of red dirt in East Texas. Everything was a mess. We were going through a really hard friendship breakup with our best friends.

and I had anxiety. I remember my husband talking to me and trying to ask me questions and feeling like I had bees in my brain. Like, I can't process what you're saying. I can't breathe. I can't, you know, that kind of thing. And I had never really dealt with anxiety before. And again, it eventually evened out. It was a lot of being outside in the sunshine and praying.

And I think if I know more what I know now about holistic things, I could have supported my hormones a little better. but I kind of just made it through because I had to. And then after our number eight, I experienced postpartum rage. I didn't know what to call it. I just knew I was ticked off all the time. And about two months into that, I remember one afternoon just kind of flipping out on my kids because things didn't get cleaned right. And my husband very kindly saying, I know you're struggling. And I know that this is hard and you're carrying a lot.

But we're going to have to work on this. And I was feeling the same conviction. So I actually started something called the generalness. challenge. Just the Lord gave me the idea. I don't even know where it came from. So 30 days of only kind speech or keeping my mouth shut. Didn't mean that I actually succeeded. But what was fascinating was the science behind it because there is science that shows that the way you speak, the way you order your face, smiling, things like that actually retrains the neural pathways of your brain toward positivity instead of despair and negativity. And the more you practice it and refuse one and feed the other,

I mean, this is like a pet. You can't starve something and feed the other and not expect the other to be stronger, right? And we know that life and death are in the power of the tongue and those who love it, either life or death, we'll eat of its fruit, either life or death. So for 30 days with my family's knowledge and their help, and then I started a thing online and thousands of women flooded in and said, this is me too, this is me, this is me. And we all did it together. And it was truly life-changing.

I mean, I wasn't a screamer before or anything, but I just found myself navigating toward the negative because I just was so irritable all the time. But it changed my hormones. It really did. It went from feeling insurmountable. In some moments, it wasn't all the time, but in some moments of stress or not eating enough or, you know, not getting enough sleep to very mindful and like, I have a choice here. Yes. I think that is the key there because even when we hear hormones and different kind of diagnoses, not that those don't all have an effect on our mood, but the fact that you said, I still have a choice. My hormones don't control me.

They're not like the Lord of my life or the like controller of my tongue. Like I can still choose to smile. I can still choose kind speech. And you're saying that that was actually what affected your hormones. Yeah. Not to say that people shouldn't get their hormones checked and try to balance it and all of that. But that is not like the determinant of whether or not you are able to be self-controlled and gentle. And that's really important for me to hear for ever.

to hear. Well, and far from being something that's condemning you that's actually really freedom. It's for freedom that Christ has set us free, and we cannot be free if we don't preach truth to ourselves. And the truth is that we, one thing that we did that was very practical was I memorized Ephesians 4 with my kids. Ephesians 4 2 says, be completely humble and gentle, bearing with one another in love. I don't, that's also the one that says, in your anger, do not sin. Also let no unwholesome talk come out of your mouth. Don't give the devil a foothold. Don't go to bed, angry. There's like so much packed into one chapter that can be so convicting and conviction is good, but condemnation is not.

Condemnation is from Satan. Conviction and an absolute assurance that Christ is calling you to something is from the Lord. And so to see where that process is led. Now, do I always speak kindly to my children? No, I do not. Have I done the challenge before or again? Yes. And I actually made it a day.

I made like a devotional. So you can actually access something where it will walk you through every day with scripture, a thing to focus on. And I hear from moms all the time that do it together with their families or with girlfriends and talk about how transformational it is. And where can they get it? You can find it on MSRoma.net under the shop. Okay. And it's called the gentleness challenge. And it's a 30-day challenge of only speaking gentle kind words or shutting your mouth.

Right. Yeah. And I want to clarify something. Yeah. Because I'm not a naturally gentle person. Yeah. I'm fun. I'm nice.

all those things, but I am much more likely to be put on your shoes, let's go, than I am, hey, sweetie, let's talk about putting on our shoes, let's think about this. Directness and firmness is not contrary to gentleness. Gentleness is not weakness. Yeah. It's not getting trod on. It is a willingness to temper strength with kindness. Yeah.

And so just because you're a direct mom doesn't mean you can't be a gentle mom too. Yes. And talk about the difference between this kind of gentle. and then the gentle parenting that says, at least from my understanding, it's a completely contrary view of human nature to what the Bible teaches, which is that you are naturally good inside. All of these outside factors might be making you feel big or making you feel bad, but deep down you're basically perfect and gentle parenting recognizes and honors that

like inner perfection of a child. that's like psychology speak, but that's what I kind of understand a lot of gentle parenting experts believe about parenting and children. Right. And there is actually a book, I think it's called Jesus the Gentle Parent, which obviously has some theological problems even in the title. Yeah. Jesus is not a parent. His goal on earth was not to be a parent. We can take examples from his lead, but if we actually do take examples from his lead, we are not going to come out. with man and children specifically are basically good. Jesus actually said from the overflow of the mouth, the heart speaks, and he wasn't meaning that your heart is pure and your mouth is speaking kind

words. And he was very clear that we are to go and send no more. Now, a lot of people say, well, Jesus was speaking to adults and he's very welcoming to children. That's very true. But there's nothing ever that Jesus has done to deny the truth of scripture as a whole. And we know, from the Old Testament that the Heart of Man is desperately wicked. We know from the New Testament that we're all born into sin because we're all descendants of Adam. And that includes our children. And I think that one of the things that gentle parenting robs parents and children of is the opportunity to seek their savior. Because if we truly believe that we're dealing with a sinless being and that it's only their circumstances or something beyond their control that's going to force them into sin.

sinful behavior, then there's really nothing to be saved from. Whereas, and I see this from gentle parenting forums where parents who follow the philosophy but also claim Christ are really struggling to reconcile the clashing theology that says, my child is basically good. So why did Jesus die on the cross forum? I can't figure out how to explain those things. Whereas I love that I get to preach the good news of the gospel to my children every day. We do catechisms. So we learn things about the Trinity and we learn about what sin is. So if you ask even my five-year-old, what is sin, he says disobeying God's law. Like he knows that it's not, I'm an evil, horrible person who God hates. Yeah. It's like, yeah, we're evil, but God loves us. And he has done this amazing thing

for us that only he could do, none of our goodness, whatever that looks like could ever save us because the Bible tells us it's like filthy rags. Like that's how good our goodness can get is like yucky menstrual rags is kind of the reference that that is. And so while I'm not using that to talk to my five-year-old and I'm not certainly walking around because there is a misconception that if we acknowledge sin to small children, that they will and acknowledge forever separation from God and hell or the concept of discipline or any of those things that we're going to represent them an image of an angry and vengeful God who is out to get them and squash them like a bug. And shame, self-shame, that's what I hear a lot, that if you are not that kind of secular

version of a gentle parent, and if you talk about sin and eating in a savior, then you're shaming a child and you're trying to get them to live in the shadows, which is obviously not at all true. And I have 10 children. I have many, many friends who have every number of children under the sun who are consistently teaching the truth of God's word to their children, which is that we are all desperately in need of a Savior, but the good news is that we have one and that we can boldly approach the throne of grace because of the mercy of our Savior who has already covered our sins with his blood. There's no, like, there's no shame in that. It's covered and gone. It's separated as far as the East is from the West. And to see children begin to grasp that and to, like,

the joy spread across their face of like Jesus loves me this much, I would never want to rob a child of that. It's so far from shame. It's truly the best gift we can offer them. And children just innately understand that things aren't all as they should be. It doesn't take very long in their life to see, for them to see that some people aren't acting the way that they should, that some people are mean, that some people are bad, that some bad things are happening, or that people get sick, and people die. Again, it just doesn't take them very long into their life to pick up on, huh, this is not all happy all the time. Why is that?

We went to the Bible Museum a couple weeks ago, and we went through the Old Testament, which is like an immersive experience, which I wouldn't really recommend for kids, my kids age. I didn't realize it at the time, like how scary it would be. And by the time we got to the plagues, my five-year-old was like, I am out. because and afterwards, but she was genuinely so sincerely sad. And her question was, why did Adam and Eve have to sin? I don't want them to have sin because she understood that it was from that sin that all of this brokenness happened. And she understands even when we get sick today that it's part of that brokenness. And so she already understands that I really didn't have to teach her all

that much about the existence of sin. You see it so quickly. But what? As you are saying, I get to teach her is that like there is redemption from that. And there is a good thing that we get to look forward to. And guess what? One day you will never be sick again. You'll never have a tummy bug. You will never have disappointment. You will never have sadness. You'll never struggle with sharing. None of that will happen because everything will be peaceful and perfect and joyful. And that's all because of Jesus. Like that's better news than see all the bad stuff that you're happening. That's all just a big misunderstanding. And we're all secretly good inside. that worldview really doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

No, it doesn't. It's not in line with reality as we see it. And it's not terribly honest. So one of the things that you're saying is like our kids are able to grasp that something is broken. What we can help them to do is to acknowledge and be more honest about their part in that. How often is it, he hit me, he did this to me. And we can ask them honest questions that are less about how they felt when they did something and the why. behind it. That's good. Because I, and I think there are probably some gentle parents out there listening

that saying, that is what I'm doing. I'm asking why. But there is a hyper focus in some instances on how you felt about how things went. When the Bible focuses more on the truth of how we are to be, regardless of what our emotions tell us. God gives us emotions and they are wonderful gifts. The way you feel when you meet your newborn's eyes for the first time has everything to do with the hormones and emotions that God so graciously gave you and nothing to do with that little wrinkled ball of skin actually should be invoking in you. A lot of times they're not real cute when they come out and you think they're the most beautiful thing you've ever seen. That's a gift from God and that's emotion and that is wonderful. So you'll never hear me denigrating emotion for

emotion's sake in the way that it's given to us rightly from God, but to then valorize it as being something that should then control our actions, should control our motives, gives us a right to mistreat others, whether we view it as mistreatment or not. An example. One of my friends, her daughter has a cousin who I think they do kind of the general parenting approach. And the cousin often tells the daughter, I need me time when the daughter doesn't get to see her cousin very often. And so in the few times they get to hang out, because she has been told kind of this bubble of autonomy, this bubble of how you feel in this exact moment. Philippians 2-4 says we're to look not only to our own needs, but to the needs of others and to consider others as more important than ourselves.

The gentle parenting secular philosophy flips that on its head and says, if you don't look to yourself first and find your truth within yourself even as a child and focus on how you feel and make sure you're okay with this interaction, you can't possibly have the interaction be genuine, when in fact, it's more like the other way around, whether we feel like being kind to someone when we choose kindness, the feelings often follow. And even if they don't, we're doing the right thing as unto the Lord. Yeah. And again, that is a freeing reality. People see that as some kind of like oppressive, religious dogma, but that's actually freeing that we are not ruled by our emotions. Again, that doesn't mean that emotions are bad. There is a place, I think, for

helping kids understand their emotions, but bridling those emotions, submitting those emotions to both like the factual truth of a situation, but also biblical truth. Right. I think that that is so often what is missing in gentle parenting. Emotions rule. Everything is just about big feelings and talking about our big feelings. The therapy sessions with the kids, which I almost think kind of make things get out of hand rather than saying, look, here's the truth of the situation and here are the values and the rules of our family. And I know you're tired, but this is what we're going to do. Well, and one thing that I have noticed because this is something that I've engaged with a lot, this is something that is really scary to engage with because there's a lot of pushback because

there's kind of the experts say. What we're not acknowledging is the expert said something else 20 years ago and 20 years before that, the experts will say something different in 20 years. the concept of feelings if we have discovered ultimate truth every 20 years or so, whether it's with parenting or something else, is not new. But at the moment, the experts say this, and it has been going this direction for a while, certainly. And so it is a little scary to be a voice speaking against it. I don't feel scared of it, but it is daunting sometimes with the responses that you get. And so engaging with this, I'm really careful to look and see how it's actually being played out because I think we can caricature each other really easily.

All gender parents are just permissive and their kids are monsters. Not true. I have friends the general parent and their kids are very sweet. I don't necessarily agree with all the methods and the philosophies or the methodologies, but it's not my business to go and parent their kids for them. I'm simply going to speak to principles from God's word that I think are the absolute best way of doing things in the way you apply them will look different for every family. And that's incredibly freeing too. You see very little of that in the gentle parenting crowd. There's a lot of fear of doing it wrong and there's a lot of responsibility laid at parents' doors that they're the reason that their child can't respond well. If you were emotionally dysregulated, if you did this

list of things, didn't respond well, didn't honor their autonomy, then this is the reason why they are sassy to you, disobedient, beating the wall, whatever it is. Well, it is scary. I'm just now thinking about this, it would be intimidating to be told basically to take on the role of a therapist and not a parent. God has equipped you to be a parent. He has not equipped you to necessarily be a therapist. That doesn't mean that you're never talking about feelings or that that role doesn't come into play. But yeah, if you are like imbibing all of this like psycho babble about how to like best maximize or optimize your kids' emotions and you see that as your primary role as a parent, that is really daunting because most of us don't have a psychologist.

degree when really it seems like what you're saying is parenting, especially in accordance with God's word, is actually a lot simpler than a lot of the psychiatrists are making it out to be. Right. One of my favorite verses about parenting is, Deuteronomy 6-6 through 8. You're supposed to impress upon your children God's ways as you walk, sit, lie, and stand. I talk about this all the time on my podcast. Basically, as you do life together, you show them what it's like to honor God's ways and to impress upon them by modeling by talking about it, by showing it, by apologizing when you don't show it. You have all of these opportunities, and it really doesn't say anything about your feelings about God's ways. It just says to impress them. One thing I've noticed in some of the bigger accounts on general parenting is

they will talk about holding boundaries, and I believe that they do hold boundaries often. They might do it differently than I do, but I don't, I'm not saying that every general parent never has a boundary or holds it. But one of the ways they often hold boundaries is almost by tricking children into doing things, and they will share about the game they played with their child to get them willing to go out the door for camp or school. And it's not shared in a way that shows that they think that this is a bad idea. It's very clear that this is like a tool in your toolbox to, to me, it seems very manipulative to have almost outsmarted your child into getting them to do something that they were resistant to. And while there are lots of great ways,

that we can encourage our kids without they're realizing exactly what's going on because that's kind of our job as parents. Sometimes you make it fun or sometimes you distract them because they're too small to overcome their emotions or their tiredness. That's your job. If we talk about holding boundaries, but we have to jump through psychological hoops to say it is time to get in the car, I think we're going to be exhausted. And I really, really want to offer hope to tired, busy moms that it is perfectly reasonable to do things simply and repetitively and God-honoringly and to say, Mama has said it's time to do this and that is why we're doing it. And that is okay.

I hope that frees some mom that thinks that for some reason she cannot say that because that's my way or the highway. God has put us in a position of authority for a reason. He has chosen us and not someone else. He has predestined us for good works before the foundation of the world was laid. And taking that seriously means sometimes you just. Just do it. Next sponsor is pre-born.

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Like, what does discipline typically look like if it's not those kind of, you know, games, manipulation tactics? What does it look like? So this is one of the biggest questions that I get asked. And it's the one I'm the cageiest about and drive people crazy because I don't think it's Abby Halberstatch's job to come into your home and tell you. exactly how to give a consequence. I don't think it's anybody's job, if I'm completely honest. I do think that the principles of discipline are there. In Hebrews 12, it says no discipline is pleasant at the time, but at the time it's painful, but it's used for good. It's profitable. And it also says that the Lord disciplines those whom he calls sons. A lot of people try to turn this into pedagogy

to say that it is simply teaching. And there's tons of teaching that goes on as parenting. But this is talking about actual consequences. This is talking about something that you shouldn't enjoy and that if your kid just shrugs it off. For some kids, it's going to be taking away their books. For little kids, it may just be limiting access to something physically. Like you may have to physically take something away. There are all kinds of other examples. But I will tell you, one, you're going to have to make sure that they actually heard you. Little kids have certain developmental limitations. And general parenting and psychology talks about developmental limitations way more. than a lot of Christian parenting books do. And I think there's some validity to that. Yeah, that's important. If we don't understand what a three-year-old's capable of and we are just snapping our fingers and saying, get it together.

That's not what the Bible calls us to at all. We're called to be humble and gentle, bearing with one another in love. That means that we bear with them in a developmentally appropriate way. So a three-year-old will not necessarily hear you say, get your shoes and get in the car, and then do it because their brain is,

developmentally engaged in running the car over the carpet over and over again. It is up to us as parents to inconvenience ourselves to go over and get down on eye level with that three-year-old and say, hey, mama needs you to do this. And if they're still distracted, to take them by the hand, show them their shoes and help them if they need help. Will it mess up our schedule? Possibly. Will it head off a lot of pain and heartache and screaming? Yeah. So the inconvenience on the front end is way better than the meltdown on the back end. Yeah. I have found, and you can tell me if you found this too, that usually it is the harder thing that is the right thing. Like what you just described, like, okay, it took me more time and more effort

and more thoughts to get down on my hands and knees to, like, really make sure that they're understanding or even like in bigger ways. I mean, we don't do like screens and stuff as a family, like as a form of entertainment. They don't have like iPads or anything. But there are definitely times when I'm like, it would be way easier to just be able to do that at a restaurant or something. But I also have found as they've gotten older because they aren't distracted by that, that they've gotten a lot better at sitting through dinner and sitting at restaurants and being in public and talking to adults. But it took some hard years during like two and three. of being like, okay, we're not going to do that.

We're not going to take the like short-term easy way. And please, I'm not saying that like we have done this perfectly in every regard at all. Just talking about the times that we have chosen the hard thing, the thing that takes longer, the thing that takes more patience and more energy from us has typically been the right thing. And the time that we have taken the shortcuts has been easier in the moment. But long term, we've been like, hmm, I don't know if we set, her up for success there or we helped her there. Do you think that that's like a principle? Am I alone in that? No, I was literally about to say, moms, listen to what Allie is saying.

This is absolutely true. Frontloading your challenges so that you can- So that you can reap the benefits in the future is so huge. My second book is called Hard is not the same thing as bad. And it was because I was getting asked at the time that that phrase came to me, not that I'm the only one that says it or I coined it really. but I'm known for it at this point. At the time that phrase came to me, I had six small children. My oldest was eight. And people were like, okay, she has a little bit of an age range.

Mine are a little younger than her. She has quite a few. Like maybe she's figured out the formula to bypass this hard. And that's the DM that I was getting. Okay, so how do I get around this? How do I potty train him in a day? How do I not have him throw a tantrum when I buckle him in his car seat? How do I, all these things?

And I found myself completely hamstrung from being able to answer them because the truth of it is, there is no perfect solution to every one of those things. It's going to vary by child. It's going to vary by your mood that you're in. What time you woke up that day? That's the thing is we are called to rely. I really think that parenting is one of the best built-in sanctifying tools that exist right after marriage. I think about that every day. Yeah, it is, when we are told to take up our cross daily and follow Jesus, there are so many ways we could duck that if we don't have built-in little neighbors that we're supposed to be living well or big neighbors. Like I said, I have big hulking boys that are way taller than I am now.

And what an opportunity if we choose to look at it that way to be sanctified daily and to take up our crosses without ever leaving our houses. If we can view it that way, well, then this heart is actually shaping me. This heart is growing me. Without it, I won't be more mature. Without it, I won't have stronger muscles to flex, either literally or a matter of Well, then by all means, I'm going to go through it by Christ's strength rather than try to circumvent it. So you're absolutely right. Galatian 6-9, don't grow weary of doing good. For in the proper time, which the Lord is the one that determines that not us. The proper time for

us is like, we've done this for three weeks. Can we see some fruit, please? Yeah. That's not usually how that works. For in the proper time, you'll reap a harvest. And then the last four words, if you note more than that, if you do not give up. Yes. I love the idea. of front-loading the hard and not bypassing the necessary difficulty of like whatever it is. Like yelling is easier, giving your kids an iPad at all times when they're like distracted or when they're disruptive is easier. Not praying with your kids, not teaching your kids. All of that is easier.

Like, you know, making mac and cheese for dinner every night is easier. And I say that as someone we went through a season of like mac and cheese every night. So I, again, I'm not saying. for us. Way too many gram crackers. Yes, I am not saying this from a place of perfection at all. I am saying this as someone who is in that, like the think of that and learning that. And we're trying by the grace of God to do our best in that. And yeah, there are just times and I'm like, oh, we chose the easy moment. It's going to be harder later. We chose the hard thing. It's going to be easier later. And we just see that manifest itself so often in our parenting.

Well, and I want to encourage you and every other mom that's going forward still, especially, because your oldest is... Right. So you have so much to look forward to. And that is how I'm going to put it. You have so many good things to look forward to. Not just you wait or you should be afraid of, but just you wait until you get to do this thing with them. Because there's so much goodness. And I've actually seen this narrative lately where moms that have been moms for a while are kind of like it doesn't get easier. And I don't know anyone in my circle that I trust that would agree with that. There are aspects to the struggle that morph into more crucial struggles. Like when your five-year-old is freaking out over sensory issues, it's hard. You might completely miss going to church. You might miss an appointment. You might feel like you're losing your mind in that moment. But it's not going to end in pregnancy. It's not going to end in divorce. It's not going to end. You know, there are things with your teen and adult children that are going to be much more life-affecting than that tantrum. And so walking that, fine line of encouraging young moms, like, this actually probably isn't quite as life-altering

and devastating as it feels in this exact moment. This too shall pass, and that is a phrase for a reason. But also, certain aspects of this are going to go away. And you won't be, I mean, I have people that ask me how I managed to clip my 10 children's fingernails. This is a common question. Yes. And I'm like watching my 18-year-old walk by. And I'm like, I, yeah, I'm not clippin to spinger dolls. Yeah. But we get stuck in a mindset of this that we're in, this struggle we're in right now will always be the same struggle.

The struggle will morph and change. There will be seasons of ease and seasons of like extreme challenge. Yeah. We've been promised that. Jesus says, in this world you will have trouble, but be of good cheer for I've overcome it. The world, not just the trouble. And so holding that tension of this is not the worst thing I will ever have to deal with, but also there's so many good things.

and these practical things as I'm faithful in them actually will become easier is important. Yeah, that's so good. Small people, small problems, big people, big problems. That's what someone's told me before. And it's important for me to remember that. Well, Abby, thank you so much. People can get your book. M is for Mama.

Heart is not the same thing as bad. Anywhere they get books. They can also follow you on Instagram. Yep. A super fun follow. And MIS4Mama. Correct. They can find you there.

And gosh, everyone in my audience just loves you so much. You did amazing at Share the Arrows. Everyone was so encouraged. So just thank you for what you do. I'm super grateful and very encouraged by you. Oh, that's so kind. Thanks for having me on Alley. Okay. Before we head out, I want to tell you about the cover up. This is a documentary series on Blaze TV by Blaze TV host Matt Kibby. Most Americans have been aware of Anthony Fauci since the COVID pandemic really took off in 2020. But Dr. Richard Ebright, a molecular biologist from Rutgers University, has had Fauci on his radar since 2001 during the anthrax scare. And so he's not surprised at all that Anthony Fauci is deeply embedded in corruption. He actually watched as Dick Cheney empowered Fauci and the NIA ID with the authority and funding for bio-defense that used to only be reserved for the Department of Defense. Fauci got his hands on that. Is that why COVID happens?

Well, you got to watch the cover up to find out. So watch the latest episode of the coverup smoking gun. on Blaze TV available now. Become a subscriber at fouchycoverup.com slash alley. Use code smoking gun for $30 off your subscription. Faucicoverup.com slash alley code smoking gun.