Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 1164 | Andy Stanley’s New Trans Training & Should Kids Grocery Shop Alone?

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Starting point is 00:00:46 That's fellowship homelones.com slash alley, term supply, see site for details, fellowship home loans, mortgage lending by the book, nationwide mortgage bankers, DBA Fellowship Home Loans, equal housing lender, NMLS, number 819-382. Andy Stanley's Church has released a training series for its middle school small group leaders on sexuality and so-called gender identity. And what we are watching is extremely disturbing. We will play some clips today and give our response to it. Also, is the Trump administration finally going too far when it comes to how they are dealing with deportations? and Bree and I will continue the conversation about parents allowing their kids to take risks.

Starting point is 00:01:35 What is too much? All of this and more on today's episode of Relatable. Hey guys, welcome to Relatable. Happy Tuesday. Hope everyone is having a wonderful week so far. Make sure you check out yesterday's episode with Natasha Crane. Isn't she amazing? Just so brilliant, articulate, so encouraging.

Starting point is 00:02:01 And I hope you felt bolstered and edified after that conversation to unapulted. apologetically bring your entire worldview into every sphere that you occupy. If you don't know exactly what that looks like, let me give you the encouragement that I give almost weekly on this show. Do the next right thing in faith with excellence and for the glory of God. That is kind of an addition to a maxim that was always repeated by Elizabeth Elliott, one of my favorite speakers and authors. She would also say, the only thing that you have to do today is the will of God. And that might sound intimidating, that might sound mysterious, but when you break it down to only doing the next right thing in faith with excellence and for the glory of God, no matter how

Starting point is 00:02:49 seemingly small and trivial that might be, or no matter how public and impactful that might be, that is all we are ever called to do in any given moment. And the Holy Spirit, which dwells in us, which is just as powerful today, who is just as powerful today as he has always been, he equips us to be able to accomplish God's will in wisdom and with His grace in any given moment. So go back, listen to yesterday's episode. Okay, before we get into some stories for today, well, actually, a couple things. One, if you haven't gotten your tickets for Share the Arrows, make sure you do that. Go to ShareTheAros.com.

Starting point is 00:03:29 We've got our speakers, y'all. We still have a couple that we have not announced yet, but we've got Elisa Childers coming back this year. She was a crowd favorite last year, absolutely amazing on apologetics. We've also got a health panel, which is going to be awesome. This is new this year. We've got Shauna Holman from a little less toxic. We've had her on the show before. We have Taylor Dukes of Taylor Duke's wellness.

Starting point is 00:03:51 We've also had her on the show just approaching health from a biblical and balanced and natural perspective and worldview. And then we've also got Katie Faust, and she really needs no introduction to y'all. You know that she is going to absolutely bring it with the hard truths. We've got Ginger Dugger Volo. She will be encouraging us in a conversation on stage. And then we will also have a panel on motherhood and the importance of raising children in the Lord, making a home that glorifies the Lord and that is conducive to discipleship.

Starting point is 00:04:27 and those speakers, that announcement is forthcoming. And then, of course, I will be there as well, Francesco Batastelli, leading worship. So make sure you get your tickets. Book your flights, book your hotels. It's sharethe arrows.com for all of that information. That's share the arrows.com. All right. Bree and I are going to continue a little conversation that we had last week.

Starting point is 00:04:50 It was the topic of discussion on Thursday's episode, I believe, when we talked about Jonathan Heights, Anxious Generation. And we talked about the importance, according to Jonathan Haidt, of allowing your kids to engage in a reasonable risk at the right age and how important it is for us to foster bravery and to foster independence in our kids. Because we as parents, especially today, are extremely anxious. And it's not just because the world is scary because the world absolutely can be scary, but it's actually because we have access to all of these scary things. We see everything scary that is happening in our country and in the world all at once. And honestly, humans were never meant to have that power.

Starting point is 00:05:47 We were never meant to have that knowledge. We simply don't have the capacity to be able to handle. all of that information, all of those frightening images and stories all at once. And so it makes us overly scared when really, if you look at the statistics on things like kidnapping and crime, we don't live in that regard in a more dangerous world than we used to. I say that as someone who is very like anxious and protective myself, but I'm trying to learn and to really be reasonable when it comes to this. And part of that conversation, was, we played a video of a mom on Instagram who allowed her seven-year-old to go into a Chick-fil-A while

Starting point is 00:06:31 she was waiting in the car. She was parked right there by the exit. She was watching the exit, but she allowed her seven-year-old to take her card or maybe cash, go in, order Chick-fil-A, wait for it, and then come back out. And he was just so excited. He felt so confident. And so we shared that clip on Instagram last night in, wow, oh my goodness, it sparked so much discussion among my followers, very disparate views. A lot of people saying, yes, that was amazing. We've done the same thing for my kids. And then you've had other people being like, oh my gosh, Allie, are you crazy? Are you crazy? I can't believe that you are promoting something like this. This is insane. And I didn't give that much of my take last week.

Starting point is 00:07:16 And so I just want to, I just want to flesh it out a little bit more. And I shared this on Instagram. My stance is that it is important to allow kids to engage in that kind of behavior and take those kinds of actions at the right age. But it depends on the age of your child. It depends on the ability of your child. It depends on your literal geographical physical location. It depends on what the parameters are. There was a whole debate last week about whether you would let your five-year-old, okay, so five-year-old into a grocery store, to go to a grocery store by herself to purchase things and then, you know, come back out and I guess meet you at the car. My stance on that, you've probably seen this debate, is, you know, I have a five-year-old.

Starting point is 00:08:06 My stance on that is no. I don't think that she's there yet. And in general, I think five is too young. Maybe some of you out there like, no, five is not too young. My five-year-old did that. Okay. That's fine. I think in general, though five is too young for a little.

Starting point is 00:08:20 that in a couple years at the right place at the right time with the right parameters I could see her totally being ready for that kind of thing I do think those kinds of exercises and independence are really important and as I said I'm someone who has the propensity to I want to err on the side of safety but I really want my kids to be brave and they cannot be brave and totally safe at the exact same time. There always has to be some relinquishing of guaranteed safety in order to exercise bravery. And we want our kids to grow and be brave and to be courageous because it is a scary world. And we don't want the first time that they have to exercise any kind of courage or independence to be when they're 18 or 19 years old. We actually want them to deal with

Starting point is 00:09:19 fear and deal with risk while they are in our protection while we have more control, while we can kind of protect them from some of the consequences. One example of this, it's a small example, but I think it's important because I observe this behavior on the playground. And I'm sorry, if you heard me say this last week, but it caused like so many messages. I just want to say it. I see so many parents stalking their kids around the playground. And that's just something that I won't do. I will allow my kids, again, reasonably to fall or to get injured or to climb and me sitting there being like, I have no idea how she's going to get down from there. And if they truly, truly need help, of course I'll help. And I'm always watching. I'm not scrolling on my phone.

Starting point is 00:10:06 I'm paying attention. But I think that kind of thing is really important. And I am surprised at the number of parents who say, no, I cannot allow even my five-year-old to go down the slide by themselves or to like run across the field by themselves because I'm scared of, you know, I'm scared they're going to get kidnapped or scared I'm going to be trafficked. Look, I think a lot of us parents really have to think about our own anxiety and our own paranoia and our own fears and really check ourselves to see if we are being reasonable because there's reasonable fear absolutely or if we are being unreasonable and if we're actually being untrusting like if we are actually creating anxiety in our kids because of our own anxiety so i certainly don't have that

Starting point is 00:10:52 balance perfect but i just thought the like backlash to the video that i posted was really a fascinating look into how a lot of parents think and brie and i were talking about this before and just like her thoughts on this and brie i know that you're not a mom you're not a mom yet, but you were saying that you just had some thoughts about the comments and the responses that people had to that. Yeah, I kind of see, I mean, I definitely see both sides. I see why people might be a little, maybe some people take offense to this word, but paranoid about the state of the world and seeing things that are happening. To me, I'm like, I think you need to be really aware of, like, where you physically live and are because there are so many, like, suburbs and

Starting point is 00:11:38 places where people live that are so much safer than people seem to think that they are, where if you're on a neighborhood playground, like, it's just probably not going to happen. And like you said, you shouldn't have your nose in your phone and not be paying attention. But yeah, I think there generally is just the sense of like dread following everyone, despite where they are. If they're in a really safe neighborhood, they're still like, there could be kidnappers around every corner. And maybe we should all have our head on a swivel all the time, but I also think it just gets a little bit much. Yeah. Yeah. And some of it is like a consequence of the fact that we live in a very divided country. Some of it, this is controversial to say,

Starting point is 00:12:19 is the product of multiculturalism very quickly being forced upon certain communities. When demographics change, when languages change, when cultures change, and people don't have time to get used to that, They don't know their neighbors anymore. They can't even share a language or a culture with their neighbors. That's automatically going to make people distrusting. That's not to say that they're assuming that the person who's not from here is a kidnapper. It's just you're on edge a little bit more because we are not speaking the same language in any regard, literally or figuratively. So I think that adds to a sense of distrust.

Starting point is 00:13:01 But even with that, as you said, a lot of our communities are statistically a lot safer. And of course, there's always a chance that something bad will happen. Yeah. But I don't think that that's how we want to train our kids to live their lives. That something could always happen so don't even try. Right. Yeah, I agree. And I will also say, though, I, when I was a kid who was like painfully shy.

Starting point is 00:13:25 I cried one time because my parents made me order my own food at a restaurant. How old? I don't know. I was pretty young probably, maybe four or five, five maybe. Yeah. And so it was painful for me to interact with other people. And they really like forced me to have interactions with people like respectful interactions with waiters and ordering things myself. Things like that.

Starting point is 00:13:51 Like in the Chick-fil-A video, I don't think ever went in somewhere by myself, but things like that. And I am so much better for it. Like I know, you know, you can't attribute something to that directly. But I just feel like that really grew me as a kid. Made you confident. Yeah, it made me confident. It made me more comfortable with strangers, which, not in a bad way, but in a good way. And so I just, I think that's necessary for some kids, you know. I'm sure my parents, it was like the opposite. It was probably like, stop. Stop talking to that person. Okay. Stop. Sometimes that's needed to, I guess. Yes. But I think that's good. I think about just my own life, even my adult life and doing what I do now. Every new thing that I've done has. as I've looked back and been like, oh, that one thing that I did that I was scared to do, that prepared me for this. And so you want those like little steps out in faith.

Starting point is 00:14:48 Again, when you're under the protection of your parents, that's the best place to have that risk. Okay. Next, we're going to talk about sleepovers. But let me pause. Let me go ahead and get to you our first sponsor for the day. Any particular order, Bree, for the sponsors? Okay. Only the second one.

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Starting point is 00:16:53 So sleepovers, whether or not parents should allow their kids to sleep over at friends' houses. I don't think that this includes like sleeping over at grandparents' houses too. I think we're just talking about sleeping over at their friends' houses. houses. And again, this is not specific to any age range. I'm pretty sure that the conversation is about all kids. Now, I did do sleepovers growing up, like, early. I don't know about as young as kindergarten, but I feel like for second grade, I was definitely sleeping over at friends' houses and they would sleep over at my house. And my parents' rule was if I went over to anyone's house, whether it was spend the night or not, they had to know their parents. Not just I

Starting point is 00:17:36 talk to them once on the phone, but like really know them. And so I think that's like a good boundary. I would add on to that. Like you should not only know the parents, but if your kid is going over to a house like at any point of the day, you should also know their siblings. You should know their, uh, what access to technology they have and what they're going to be doing, what their rules are all kinds of things. Like I do think it's really important for parents to know all of that before you allow your kid into someone else's home, especially if there are other adults or like teenagers that are going to be in a house. My stance is different than my parents in that I say no to sleepovers. I don't know if I can say, because, you know, again,

Starting point is 00:18:26 my oldest is only five. I don't know if I can say in no circumstances will I ever allow sleepovers, but I do believe it's a good general rule, especially with the access to technology that kids have today. And I've talked to so many of you who said, even when we were growing up, 90s, 2000s, that they might not everyone endurest trauma at a sleepover, but very rarely do good things happen. Like are good things talked about you are putting kids in a situation where they have no supervision for hours and are getting no sleep. And my parents always said nothing good happens after midnight. And I think that is consistently proven to be true. It just seems like a good boundary for me. Even if when they're older, it's like, okay, I'll pick you up at 11 seems better to me

Starting point is 00:19:20 than them going to bed at 3 a.m. talking about who knows what and then being completely trashed the next day. it just doesn't seem conducive to like good behavior or like anything productive. That's my stance. Bree, however, has a different stance. So let me hear you're thinking about it. Okay. I'm going to preface this by saying, I don't currently have kids. My mind might change once I do.

Starting point is 00:19:47 I'm like fully aware of that. Yeah. And you know what? It probably will the more I think about it. Yeah. But currently the way that I think about it is, and maybe everyone approaches it this way from their perspective or from their experience of going to sleepovers. Some of my favorite memories growing up with my friends were at sleepovers and I always had the birthday party that was a sleepover.

Starting point is 00:20:12 And they were always so much fun. I had experiences that were really wholesome and innocent when it comes to sleepovers where it was just like hanging with my friends watching movies, you know. I know that there are other people who were exposed to really awful things at sleepovers. And I just saw a guy on X. I forgot who it was, but he was saying he was exposed to porn for the first time at a sleepover. He was really young. And he's still dealing with boys.

Starting point is 00:20:42 Yeah. And he said he's still as an adult, married adult, he's still dealing with the effects of that. And that's horrifying. Like those are the kinds of things that might make me change my mind about it. But just speaking. 30 years ago and seeing porn once to sleep over like really, really the left and indelible mark. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:21:01 So I can imagine how much worse it is now where you can stumble upon it by accident now. So I acknowledge all of that. But I just have really good experiences. And I find that they were really formative of growing relationships with other girls and and making friends. And I just would really be sad for my daughter to make. out on stuff like that. But yeah, maybe the risks outweigh the rewards. I definitely can see that that that's a possibility. I'm just, I love sleepovers. I always did. Yeah. And so I would have a

Starting point is 00:21:35 hard time. Yeah. Not allowing that. Yes. I totally see what you mean because I also have some good memories with that. But I also am like, I feel like most of the time I was just so tired the next day. And I never had anything traumatic happen either, but it's like it's the gossip. It's the like, you know, people being left out, the prank calls the silly things like that that probably weren't like formative in a healthy way and wouldn't have happened if we had just like been in our own homes. Like I can't even think of anything specific, but I just don't have anything that I can look back on and be like, yes, that was truly like beneficial and formative for me. But again, I also can't say 100%. If we have a family that we're super close to, we know them really well.

Starting point is 00:22:29 And my daughter and their daughter are best friends. We've gone on trips together. We know each other. Mom and I have great communication. We know the rules. I can't say no, absolutely never. is that ever going to happen? I don't know for sure. Right now I am saying that's a pretty good ground rule and I absolutely will not be doing that in like first and second grade. It's kind of like even crazy to think about it a little bit. But yeah, I think it also again kind of going back to the independence conversation, it depends. It depends on the kids. It depends on the maturity level. It depends on all kinds of different things. But yeah, I don't know that. that anyone can say before they get there what they absolutely will or will not do. Yeah, that's fair.

Starting point is 00:23:17 Also, I was thinking about it just now. And I feel like the sleepovers I remember the most were the ones that were at my house, not the ones where I went to other people's houses. I guess that's not a standard. Everyone can upkeep. But I was, there were some. I remember that I'm like, my parents, let me go to that person's house. I spoke to them like once. But the ones at my house were like a lot more special. And maybe that's just because I felt safer there. I don't know. But yes, I never really liked going to other people's houses and spending the night. Okay, I remember like one time I spent, I'm still friends with her. So it's all good. But I was spent the night with a friend in like sixth grade. This is another example of like not trauma, but also not good. I watched signs.

Starting point is 00:24:03 That'll get you. That'll get you. And I felt so bad because I was so scared after that. And that would not have happened if I hadn't spent the night because again, older siblings and everything. It was probably like I was probably 11 years old. And it was probably 10 o'clock. We watched signs. Also, I remember watching Mean Girls for the first time at this person's house, which great movie. Well, I can't say great, but it's great.

Starting point is 00:24:29 Like, in a lot of ways. But that's really like a teenager movie. I shouldn't have watched it for the first time at this person's house. And I was like 10 or 11. Yeah, no, that's true. definitely not at 10 or 11 yeah so if you're going to you got to make sure that the parents you know follow the rules and all of that and now it's a little bit different because kids at 12 years old have a cell phone and they can like text their parents and things like that which is a whole other

Starting point is 00:24:57 issue but yeah things things to think about things to think about I think there are good risks and then like unnecessary risks I think it's Jordan Peterson and that said, let your kids do dangerous things safely. And I think that's like a pretty good rule of thumb of mom who is a mom of boys messaged me and said that someone told her once that if they're going to die, stop them from doing it. But if they're going to break a bone, leave them alone. And obviously that's different.

Starting point is 00:25:30 That's like physical risk and not, you know, emotional, sexual and all of that. but also like maybe a good a good rule of thumb in some ways yeah okay well that concludes the conversation on that y'all can let us know what you think i'm sure that you will have lots of opinions out there a lot of differing opinions about what kind of risk is right for our kids i'll tell you one thing that i will not risk for my kids is their theology and their spiritual state Now, obviously there is only so much control we can have over this as parents. God is sovereign. He is in control of their spiritual destiny, and he will sanctify them through the power of their Holy Spirit.

Starting point is 00:26:20 But of his Holy Spirit. But we as parents are charged with the stewardship of their heart and mind. We are called to raise our children in the Lord to teach them what is good and right and true. And that means that we have to, as far as we can, ensure that they have a good theological foundation, a good apologetics foundation. And so the education that they get at home, at school, at church really matters. And we want to make sure that the training that they are receiving is in alignment with God's word. How gracious is God that he has given so much clarity and such a good foundation in his word. And I am very troubled.

Starting point is 00:27:05 by training that I have now seen come out of Andy Stanley's very large and influential church in Atlanta, Georgia, North Point Community Church. Now, we have talked before about Andy Stanley's very problematic and unbiblical stance on homosexuality and so-called gender identity. We will link the past episode on that. We'll get into some past context in just a minute. But you can go back and watch that episode if you, or multiple episodes, if you want specifically what I'm talking about, but this training that they are now implementing, that they are now showing to their youth leaders at their church called transit is very troubling to me, because it uses words that sound good while ultimately not affirming what scripture actually says about LGBTQ identity.

Starting point is 00:28:03 So these training videos for middle school small group leaders recently were published online. They were, I guess, supposed to be private and they have now leaked. It seems to instruct the leaders to, I don't know if I would say affirm so-called gender identity, but at the very least ignore statements of self-declared transgender identity. of children and teenagers in order to make the church more comfortable for kids who are struggling with gender deception. Now, gender deception is the terminology I use because I don't think gender dysphoria is always the right terminology, but the language they use, I find, to be very purposely ambiguous, and that is why it's so disturbing, really important for us to

Starting point is 00:29:02 know what's going on and these very large evangelical churches. So I'll get into the details in just a second. Let me go ahead and pause and tell you about our second sponsor. And that is Good Ranchers. Y'all, I love Good Ranchers so much. They've got a great deal going on right now. They've got to spring into action special. So when you subscribe to your Good Ranchers box of all American meat, You get free bacon, ground beef, chicken nuggets, or salmon in every box for a year. Plus, you get $40 off with My Code Alley. That's an amazing deal. We're talking about hundreds of dollars off your subscription right there.

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Starting point is 00:30:12 sunflower oil, inflammatory oils. But you don't have to worry about that with the good ranchers chicken nuggets. They taste really good. I can attest to that. My kids love them, but also they have avocado oil. So nothing inflammatory in them and just like everything else that Good Rancher sells, it's all from American farms and ranches. So go to Good Ranchers.com. Use code Alley for that $40 off. Take advantage of their spring into action special going on right now for a limited time. Good Ranchers.com slash All right. The 2025 leader training videos were intended for small group leaders with transit. Transit is the middle school ministry, so six to eighth graders at North Point Community Church, where Andy Stanley is the senior pastor. So the transit website says this about

Starting point is 00:31:06 the middle school years. We know that middle school can be complicated. Students are going at Thassanita place where they can learn how God sees them. And remember that last line there, learn how God sees them in light of what we were about to read about this instruction, these instruction videos meant for these small group leaders. So the training videos included transit director Britt Kitchen instructing small group leaders on how to handle issues related to their upcoming teaching series on sexuality. The emphasis of the training in these videos is how leaders can be a safe place for all students. So let me just stop there. First, I think it is great that any church is taking matters of sexuality and identity seriously, that they're not just

Starting point is 00:31:57 brushing it under the rug, that they're not just hoping that, okay, maybe parents and students will kind of deduce what God thinks about these things from us teaching through scripture, but we don't really want to talk about it because it's controversial. I think churches should be addressing these things head on. It is true that middle school is a very complicated time. a lot going on in each individual life in a person's body. These are very formative years. And now more than ever, kids do have questions about sexuality and gender and identity and all of these things. And so, so far, if this were it, if we found out that, okay, North Point is addressing this issue

Starting point is 00:32:43 from a biblical perspective, they're not ignoring it. I would be applauding and say yes and amen. But I will give them credit simply for addressing it, for saying this is an important issue, for recognizing that and recognizing that the church needs to have a voice in it. However, how they go about this, I really, really disagree with at least as I'm watching these training videos and also in light of what Andy Stanley has said in the past. So Kitchen begins these videos by giving three main principles that they try to emphasize as they teach middle schoolers about topics related to sexuality. one, honor God with your body. Two, don't be mastered by anything. And three, don't sexualize any relationship outside of marriage. Now, I agree with all three of those things. I agree with that.

Starting point is 00:33:30 Those all are supported by scripture. Now, his explanation of why we should honor these three principles, why we shouldn't, for example, sexualized relationships outside of marriage, I think is weak because it makes it sound very subjective, like this is a personal interpretation and not objectively what the Bible says. He says, quote, we simply don't think it's wise based on the teachings of Jesus. We don't think it's wise to make any relationship sexual in nature until you are married that no relationship should cross the boundary for your own physical, spiritual, and mental health. Well, yes, it's not wise because Jesus clearly articulates that when he defines marriage in Matthew 19, 4 through 5, for example. We read throughout scripture, especially in the

Starting point is 00:34:12 epistles to the church and Corinth to the Christians. there that we are to honor our body and flee from sexual immorality. We see that throughout scripture. We see that model of holy sexuality is between one man and one woman in the context of marriage. It's not simply that we don't think it's wise based on our interpretation of what Jesus said. The training video that then moves on to the question of same-sex attraction and of so-called gender dysphoria with children and young teenagers emphasizing that they want their church and ministry to be quote, the safest place for students to talk about anything. Now, I don't disagree with that one statement.

Starting point is 00:34:55 Again, I do want the church to be a refuge for people with questions, for people with struggles. I want people who are in sin, who are tempted, who are struggling, who are confused, to be able to come to the church, to talk to Christians, for Christians to be ready and willing to embrace that person, to love that person, to care for that person, to point that person to Jesus and point that person to the truth lovingly but totally unapologetically. However, I'm not sure that that is the same thing that they are saying because in the entirety of this 20-minute video that was leaked, this is part of the training regimen. Britt never addresses the Bible or any kind of biblical support for these opinions, for these perspectives that he is.

Starting point is 00:35:45 putting forth. So it is what do you mean by this? Now maybe you could say well he gets to that later or this is not the time for that. I just don't know. We are talking about training videos for church leaders. I think the most important question that a church leader would have is what does the Bible say about this? And yet at least in this video we just don't see that. So in this video that's circulating on acts, he says when he's addressing gender dysphoria, he says, now gender dysphoria, this is a weird term. We don't hear this a lot. Basically, this is the clinical term for anyone who is unsure about their gender. Well, that's not true. He says dysphoria is the opposite of euphoria, euphoria is joy happiness, contemate excitement. Gender dysphoria is like they're not comfortable.

Starting point is 00:36:36 They don't have joy over it. They're not sure where they land. How, I mean, how many people, honestly have joy over their gender. Not everyone has joy over their gender. There may be a lot of different instances where someone would say, gosh, it'd be a lot easier if I were the opposite sex or this is a really hard thing about being a man or a woman or whatever, but it is simply an acceptance of who we are, how God made us. And so even putting this dichotomy up there, euphoria or dysphoria, I think causes a lot of confusion because you might have a kid out there that's like, well, I don't feel euphoric about being a girl or boy, especially in middle school. Things are so complicated and weird and confusing to tell a person that the opposite of having this disorder is euphoria. I mean, that automatically

Starting point is 00:37:23 is going to make kids wonder, well, what am I categorized as? If I'm not euphoric, then am I really transgender? But this is not the definition of gender dysphoria, by the way, according to the diagnostic and statistical manual of mental disorders, the DSM-5. Gender dysphoria is defined as a marked incongerance between one experience and express gender and the gender, this is, you know, liberal language, assigned at birth, accompanied by significant distress or impairment and social, occupational, and other important areas of functioning. And here's what's important in this. The adjectives that are used to describe true gender dysphoria are persistent and inconsistent and consistent, okay? It's not just feeling some

Starting point is 00:38:07 distress or some disappointment or incongruence. It was originally seen only in boys, a tiny, tiny, tiny percentage of the population. You saw it at a very young age, boys who felt the stress about being a boy and wanting to look like a girl, dress like a girl, act like a girl. And then over 80% of those boys would go through puberty and those feelings of distress would end. There's also like a link of trauma there. And so what we are seeing now, The social contagion, as Abigail Schreier and other scholars have noted, is not gender dysphoria. It is people trying to identify as the opposite sex, but they don't have the diagnosis of gender dysphoria. They might have gone through trauma themselves.

Starting point is 00:38:57 That's typical in girls. They might be addicted to a dark form of pornography. That's typical in boys. But it is not some innate mental disorder here. And actually, if you're not understanding that and explaining that you're not going to be able to equip church leaders to be able to address it head on. So even just defining the terms, there's a problem there. Here's SOT one. The terms, transgender or non-binary, are some sample terms that an adult might use to describe who they are if they're trying to figure out their gender.

Starting point is 00:39:27 Our goal in these situations is to best support the student and the family. Okay, I have so many problems with just the language there. that is that is affirming progressive language transgender non-binary are the terms that an adult might use if they're trying to figure out their gender instead of simply clearly affirming that your gender is not something that you can figure out but it is something that was fixed at the moment of conception that your unique DNA was either male or female that god's made you that way in his image, Genesis 1.27, that is the clear reality. Now, they might be deceived. They might be confused, but they are not genuinely trying to figure out who they are. Who they are has already been defined by God. And it is our job to lovingly and persistently affirm that reality. Now, at one point in this video, he also says that transgender people are a very small part of the population and that leaders probably won't encounter someone who is truly

Starting point is 00:40:34 transgender. But he then says, this is strangely contradictory. Over the years, we've gotten to know several families who have dealt with so-called gender dysphoria. So I'm not really sure there. And actually, if you look at the statistics, according to CDC data, 18 to 24-year-olds identifying as transgender has gone from 0.59% in 2014. That's that's 0.59, okay? to 3.08% in 2023. So quintupled in the last decade. Yes, it's still a small percentage. But still, quentupled, and we know that I think according to Pew Research, I think

Starting point is 00:41:15 it's Pew Research that 20% of Gen Z identifies as LGBTQ. Okay. So something is going on here. It's not just, oh, this is just a natural evolution here. it certainly seems like this is a phenomenon that is being socially driven. Then Kitchin tells the story of a family whose journey with so-called gender dysphoria began when their student was five years old. I don't know why he's a student instead of child, but that's the choice in language that he uses.

Starting point is 00:41:50 Here's that too. Now, through the years, we've gotten to know several families. There's one family in particular that's very helpful for me. Their journey first started when their student was five years old. This family first started going to a child psychologist and seeing a medical specialist. They were time they started using different pronouns at home, but only at home. They were not using these pronouns in school. They weren't even asking an extended family to use those pronouns yet.

Starting point is 00:42:15 They weren't asking friends to do it yet. Then a big set was to pick a new name from the other juniors so they could start using that. Okay. Then he goes on to say that the people. parents did end up asking other people to use the preferred pronouns. We don't actually know the real gender of this child. The parents supported the child pursuing puberty blockers, knowing that surgery will happen later. He says this is the typical kind of these are the typical steps that are taken and that parents ask the school and others to use the names and the pronouns.

Starting point is 00:42:52 and that this particular family, this is right, Bree, that this particular family tried to get other people to affirm their child's gender at the church and they wouldn't, or is that a different story? That's this story. I think that's SOT 3. Okay. Okay, let's just watch the SOT then. Okay, here's Sot 3.

Starting point is 00:43:15 Their local church said, nah, because we've known him since he was a little boy, we're not going to start saying her. So not here, not at our church. We've done you too long to be able to do that. So everywhere this child went in life, they were saying you are one thing, but only at church they had to pretend to be something else. And they had to leave that church. And they finally came here, started to talk to our care ministry staff.

Starting point is 00:43:38 And we realized, oh, my goodness, we cannot be the last place a student feels comfortable. Oh my goodness. Okay, so we did find out that this is actually a boy. Yeah. That trying to identify as a girl. And he is saying that it was wrong that their local church would not affirm this child in being the opposite sex, would not call this child by pronouns that do not correlate with his God-given biological reality. And this person who is the head of middle school ministry at North Point Church in Atlanta, led by Andy Stanley, is saying that that was wrong. That that church was not a safe place.

Starting point is 00:44:18 that that person, that that child had to pretend to be something else. No, I did define as a girl was pretending to be something else. And that church in love was affirming reality. And by the way, other kids matter too. Forcing children, all of these five-year-old friends who knew this child as a boy, to then call this child a girl and say, no, this friend, who I have known since preschool ministry, I now have to say as a girl, that is sowing confusion in those kids that is so damaging to their understanding of God and themselves

Starting point is 00:44:56 and others in reality and morality. Of course, that church is trying to shepherd the hearts and the minds and the souls of everyone in that church, including the children. And so, yes, the right and the loving thing to do would be to say, look, we will walk with you through this, but we will not tell a lie. We're not going to tell a lie. And the fact that Andy Stanley's church is saying that that church did something wrong and the right thing is for, I assume, reading between the lines for a church to use opposite sex pronouns for a child who is deceived about their gender. It's insane. That is a radically progressive position. I just want you to know where North Point is on this.

Starting point is 00:45:39 All right? Let me pause and tell you about our next sponsor. It's Every Life. Every Life is praying for more babies in 2025. C.R. and I are also praying for all of you who have been trying, who want more babies. We want Christian married moms and dads to be having all of the children. And we are just praying for more adoptions, more fostering, more children to be had in 2025. This is who every life is. They support life. They support marriage. They support families. And that's just not

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Starting point is 00:46:55 We're praying along with you. You can join us. Pray for more babies in 2025. Go to everylife.com slash pray. So he says we cannot be the last place a student feels comfortable. Look, our primary concern is Christians is not whether someone feels. comfortable. Yes, I want that. I want people who are stuck in sin or in some kind of mode of deception to feel confident walking into a church. But if they are deceived, if they are stuck in sin, then it will be uncomfortable to walk into the light. If we've been asleep and someone walks in and turns the light on, is that comfortable? No, it's not comfortable, but at times it's

Starting point is 00:47:49 It's necessary. Some things that are necessary are uncomfortable. And we have to recognize that. We see that acutely in the ministry of Jesus. How many people did Jesus make uncomfortable? His own disciples were made uncomfortable by the difficult truths that he preached. Do we see in the ministry of Jesus that he was really concerned at all with making people comfortable? Yes, healing people.

Starting point is 00:48:15 Yes, meeting their needs. but it wasn't about comfort. It was about loving them, displaying the power of God. But we see over and over again that Jesus makes things really awkward sometimes by saying things that he knows no one wants to hear, but they need to hear. So this is not modeling ministry after Jesus. Kitchen goes on to describe how this whole process of transcing a child can take years. And he uses these progressive euphemisms like Upper Surgeant.

Starting point is 00:48:47 and bottom surgeries sought for. There's upper surgeries and bottom surgeries, and many people can go through the upper surgery, but the bottom surgeries are extremely invasive, and sometimes don't even work. And so it may not even happen be possibility for every person who wants to make this change. So knowing how long this journey really is,

Starting point is 00:49:11 it's important that we as staff and small group leaders care for these students knowing this is not. not going to be a flip of the switch and be taken care of next week. This isn't going to be something that is turned around in just a few days. This is going to be a five or six year process for the student if, if they stick with it. And the best part is that's exactly what our strategy is already made to do, to track along for multiple years with the students. Okay.

Starting point is 00:49:42 What do you think he's trying to say, Bree? he's trying to say that what got me here was the language almost seems like he's trying like it comes like it comes off like it might be saying the journey takes a long time for them to come back to who they actually are to like transition back okay that's a charitable reading yes but i but i don't think that's what he's saying i think what he's saying is yes it takes a long time to get to the point of surgery and to get to the point of actually trying to physically transition and we need to walk with students all the way through that. I think he's saying slow your role, don't feel so much urgency to change them because they probably won't even be castrated for a

Starting point is 00:50:29 few years. So you don't need to worry about that right now because that process takes a long time anyway. Now, charitably, he might be saying we might be able to stop them from doing that and we have time before that happens. But again, why should we have to read between the lines? Especially since this is supposed to be an internal video, you should be saying, look, we do not want someone mutilating their body because we know God created their body, loves their body. Christianity teaches that the body is good, that Jesus came here bodily,

Starting point is 00:51:02 that we will be raised in the body. Wow, the body matters so much. So we want to stop that. And here's how we do that. But it's not. It's like, okay, this might not happen for a long time. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. But also the language of like, yeah, some of these bottom surgeries don't even work. So some people won't even be able to succeed in what they're trying to do. It's the way he's talking about it is like, oh, that's such a shame that they won't get to fully complete their transition. And I know, again, I'm reading in between the lines too. But they make it that you have. to. Yeah. Yeah. It's ambiguous on purpose. And I do think they do that on purpose so that they can point to a video like this and be like, that's not what we said. Okay, well, tell me exactly what you believe then. Tell me. Because this is not clear. And I bet that we are older and

Starting point is 00:51:57 probably more mature than most of the middle school leaders, small group, the small group leaders there. And if we are like trying to understand what you're saying, then they will. too. And I know Andy Stanley knows this. He's a good communicator. Clarity is a gift. Confusion is a curse. And there's a lot of confusion in these videos that I think will be a curse to the church and to the people that they are trying to serve. At one point in the training, Kitchen gives a little sample script when talking to a student who might identify as gay. That is all about affirming the student being thankful that they told the youth leader. nothing about what the Bible says about any of this. So affirming, they don't necessarily say in

Starting point is 00:52:45 this video that they should affirm homosexuality as good, right? No, not explicitly. Just affirming like like you're you're so brave for telling me. Thank you so much. He says there's a direct quote in here. He says, we need to applaud them for being willing to tell us. And so there isn't, you know, he's not, he's not explicitly saying we should affirm them. being gay or identifying is gay. But there's not the opposite either. Yeah. And I agree there is a time and a place to say certain things. And when someone opens up to you and is very vulnerable to you right away, it's probably not the time and the place to open up Romans 1. But there is a time and a place for it. Like at some point, there is a time and a place. And if I'm a leader,

Starting point is 00:53:33 I'm wondering when that is. So like, when can I point people to Jesus? Like, when can I point people to the truth. Like, are we trying, it seems like a whole strategy to outnice God here. We're all nicer than God. We're apologizing for his word. We already know that Andy Stanley calls Romans 1 and 1st Corinthians 6.9, these clobber verses that, you know, I guess, I don't know, he believes don't carry as much weight. He has also said explicitly that homosexuality is a different kind of sin than other sins, which is absolutely unbiblical and puts a yoke and a burden on people struggling with same. sex attraction that the gospel that Jesus does not put on them. And so we already know that's completely messed up. So this is where all of that confusion is coming from. Kitchin closes this

Starting point is 00:54:19 video with the story about a middle school student who had been struggling with gender confusion and identity while attending a summer camp with their ministry. Kitchens said that this child was hearing about the message of Jesus and salvation. But Kitchin claimed the small group leader was too focused on the gender confusion and wasn't comfortable having a gospel conversation. but luckily, one of their staff members intervened to point to Jesus and pray with a child. God, I don't know if I'm your son or daughter, but I know I'm your child's. Okay, so that's how it ends. I don't think it's, of course, wrong to point a child to Jesus who is in the midst of their confusion.

Starting point is 00:54:56 That is the most important thing. The most important thing that they go from unbelief to belief, and we have to trust that Jesus will sanctify them after that through all kinds of but I don't know if that's the conclusion. That should be the conclusion of this video. That still leaves so many questions, right? Again, when is the right time to say the clear truth of what Jesus said in Matthew 19, 4 through 5? When is the right time to tell people that Genesis 1 is really clear? And God tells us this because he loves us and he knows our body and he didn't make a mistake when he made us.

Starting point is 00:55:35 Like, what is the right time to talk about the Bible at church? Yeah. Not mentioned in this training. At least in this particular. Yeah. In this 20 minute training. And this 20 minute training. And that is the concern.

Starting point is 00:55:50 That is also my concern with Andy Stanley's messages in the past is that I think he wants to let God off the hook. He wants to let the Bible off the hook. And I think he thinks he can give a better message and a more hopeful message. to people who identify as LGBTQ than God can. And that is self-idolatry. And I worry about those being affected by this ministry. Yes, I think the church can do a better job of addressing this head-on.

Starting point is 00:56:19 Yes, I think that the church should be training their leaders to have these conversations, but it's got to be Christ at the center. It's got to be the truth at the center. Please go back and listen to or watch my conversation with Laura Perry Smalt. an amazing woman who believed for years that she was in the wrong body. She believed it really from a young age. And she embraced this newfound identity as an adult. A man named Jake. She had a double mastectomy. She had a hysterectomy. She wanted to be affirmed in this way. She was affirmed by many people in her life. The people she was never affirmed by the people who never called her Jake, who never called her he-him pronouns were her Christian parents and their fellow congresses.

Starting point is 00:57:04 at their Christian conservative church in Oklahoma. And she understandably was uncomfortable going there. She was uncomfortable talking to her parents because they didn't affirm her. And yet they loved her. They never stopped reaching out. They never stopped talking to her. They never stopped caring. And in fact, it was her mom asking Laura to transcribe some Bible study notes for her

Starting point is 00:57:30 that Laura started thinking about the Bible verses that she was writing. And the Lord used his word to soften her heart. She started going to church, started going to Bible study. She was not affirmed in her identity as Jake. These people knew that this was a woman made in the image of God named Laura. And even though it made her uncomfortable, it was their truth telling while also loving them that God used to change her heart and embrace who she really is. a woman. And now she is a woman who is one of the most, I think, spirit-filled and articulate evangelist out there who is just so beautiful and gentle and is now married to a man. And it's just an

Starting point is 00:58:13 incredible testimony of God's redemption. But God didn't use compromise to lead her to himself. He used courage. And what this training seems to be promoting is compromise and cowardice, rather than the courage that we get from God's word. The definition of gender and marriage, again, this alliteration we've been using for six years at this point is rooted in creation. It's reiterated throughout scripture. It's repeated by Jesus himself. It is representative of Christ in the church, Ephesians 5, and therefore it is reflective

Starting point is 00:58:49 of the gospel. The Bible starts with the marriage between a man and a woman, ends with a marriage between Christ, the bridegroom, and the church, the bride. These are specific ginger designations that not only have significance in the physical world, but in the spiritual and the eternal. And we do not have the option as Christians of messing with that. It's a core tenet of Christianity. When we get that wrong, we end up getting everything else wrong to.

Starting point is 00:59:14 Once you start compromising on Genesis 127, you eventually compromise on John 14.6. It always happens. So let's pray for repentance from some of the people in this church. Let's pray that the Holy Spirit will help those who, are hearing this confusion and bimbing this confusion at church to be discerning and to be courageous and to stand up. All right. We've got a little bit more. Let me pause and tell you about our next sponsor for the day. And that is Jace Medical. Jace Medical is a supplier of emergency medical kits. And this is one of those things where it's just better to be safe than sorry. You don't want

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Starting point is 01:01:02 case, a J's go case right now. And if you get a Jace case or if you get J's daily case, you can use my code Alley at checkout for a discount. That's jace.com code alley. All right. Let's just talk, Bree, really quickly as our in segment. We've got a lot of people who are upset by a post on X by the Trump administration. Okay. There's a, is it called Ghibli? Ghibli? Ghibli?

Starting point is 01:01:37 Ghibli? I don't know. Ghibli? We think it's Ghibli? Okay. So, and it is, I don't know, a form of anime. Yes. Which I am spiritually and morally opposed to.

Starting point is 01:01:51 Spiritually and morally. Yes. I think that it is like, it can be, can be YouTube, can be a gateway to all kinds of degeneracy, including gender confusion and promiscuity, the themes that are in it, I think, sometimes are very dark and demonic. You can at me all you want to. I will stand by it. But this seems to be kind of like a cute form of it. I don't know where it comes from.

Starting point is 01:02:14 I guess it's Japanese. But there are cartoons of like grok on X, if you say, turn this picture into a Ghibli, whatever. It will do that for you. And it's just a style of animation. Yeah. It's very, they're very popular movies that I think stem from one one guy. I think he made spirited away if people know that movie. Yes. So I, in my opinion, it's a prettier animation style of anime. I think most anime is pretty ugly. But yeah. But yeah. Some of them are pretty cute. I agree. It's cuter. It's like less harsh, rounded features. Okay. So the White House capitalized on this trend. And they. quote posted a picture of this woman being deported, crying in handcuffs with this ICE officer in this Ghibli style. And this is a quote post of a post that says Virginia Basora Gonzalez, a previously deported alien felon convicted of fentanyl trafficking, was arrested by ICE

Starting point is 01:03:23 in Philadelphia after illegally reentering the U.S. She wept when taken into custody. all right. A lot of people, even on the right, said this is cruel. This is casual cruelty. This is fascism. My response was, okay, I can see how the argument that it's unnecessary and that it might be counterproductive because you are making her look like a sympathetic character. Because she's a woman. She's crying. You've got this stone cold ice agent that's arresting her. We don't want people to feel sympathy for fentanyl dealers. And making this into a cartoon that's like making fun of it will evoke sympathy whether it should or not. It's going to evoke sympathy from people, even from the like staunchest Republicans.

Starting point is 01:04:15 They're going to be like, ugh. There's something that like doesn't feel right about that. And I get that. I don't buy the argument that, oh my gosh, this is so cruel because this person was a fentanyl dealer. She is likely responsible for the deaths of thousands of people, including teenagers, accidental deaths, people who thought that they were taking one medication. It was laced with fentanyl. Obviously, some people are making those choices and that's not a good choice. But, like, this person literally, like, got fat off of the spoils of America, was here illegally and was killing thousands of Americans. Like there is real, like she should get the death penalty to me. And we're talking about, oh my gosh, it's so cruel to make a cartoon out of her. All of your ire.

Starting point is 01:05:08 All of your ire should be directed toward her and the victims that she had. That's my take. What do you think, Bree? I feel a little bit differently about this one than I did the previous ones that they've posted, which we might get into. the White House accounts, I mean. Not Ghibli, but just kind of like. Like the other like kind of meme. Closing time. That was my favorite one. Closing time. That was great. Also deportation ASMR. I thought that was so funny. So funny. And I think those speak more to like those of us who are like, finally. Yeah, the sounds of deportation do sound nice after all that we've dealt with. Yeah. We're literally talking about murders and rapists and pedophiles. Are here illegal? legally being deported. There's nothing sad about that. No. And so those ones I'm like,

Starting point is 01:06:04 I fully support posts like that because they're funny. This one, I tend to agree that I think just the style itself evokes more sympathy from people who are not going to do the research and look at who this person was. They're just going to see the photo and then the cartoon. And they're going to be like, wow, that's really cruel. And that's all that's going to be reposted on Instagram where all of the liberal wine moms are. Yeah. And what a joke this administration is that they're posting. you know, they're mocking this woman without looking into it. And so I see how there could be some harm done to the narrative when they post something like this. I see where they were coming from.

Starting point is 01:06:39 They were trying to do the same thing that they did with the ASMR video where it's just like a very online thing that a lot of people did enjoy and think was funny. But yeah, I think this one, the reaction is just a little bit different, I think. Now, Bethany Mandel had a take, which I thought was interesting. And I still don't know if it was the right strategic move, but she said all of these messages that they're putting out aren't for us. They are to their deterrence. They're to deter people like her who want to come over here, get rich off of selling fentanyl, dealing fentanyl here,

Starting point is 01:07:13 or who want to come here illegally at all, but especially the criminals to say, like, we don't give a rat's patootie about you, like nothing. We don't care about you at all. Like, not only are we going to deport you, we're going to make fun of you when we deport you. So don't even try because we're serious. That is the exact opposite of what Biden did, which was allow people in who should not be here, refuse to deport people who were rapists, who were assaulters.

Starting point is 01:07:46 And that message was also conveyed to people who shouldn't be here and said, okay, great. It's my time to come. And the Trump administration is communicating the opposite. Like, yeah, we're cruel toward you. And we will continue to be cruel toward you. And we will laugh at your tears because you're killing Americans and you're not allowed to be here. Also the one of, this wasn't a meme necessarily, but Christy Noam in front of prison cells in El Salvador. She went to that big prison.

Starting point is 01:08:15 I thought that that was a little odd myself. Well, I think that's a good example of them being like, this is the kind of thing that. that we're going to implement if you guys come here. Like that's the kind of post that if I were thinking about illegally immigrating, I would be like, oh, rather than like this cartoon. Yeah. So I would see maybe that being the goal of posts like that. I don't know.

Starting point is 01:08:41 I don't know how much this like cartoon animation will deter people trying to traffic fentanyl. Yeah. But I see that maybe that's what they're trying to do. Yeah. It's a little tough because the Biden administration, granted asylum to people that they probably shouldn't have. And Trump is deporting some of those people. And now the narrative is he's deporting asylum seekers and people who had legal protections here.

Starting point is 01:09:05 The problem is they shouldn't have been here. Like there's this guy. He had two crowns tattooed on him, which is a symbol of Trindio, Ragua, a Venezuelan gang. He's from that area of Venezuela. His previous ICE proceedings said, yeah, we believe that he's a part of that gang. And yet he applied for asylum. in the midst of all of that and got asylum and the Biden administration. And now the Trump administration is like, no, you're deported.

Starting point is 01:09:32 And now the narrative is, well, he's deporting these genuine asylum seekers who are just like good people. Well, it's a little more complicated than that. And I'm not saying that they're doing everything perfectly. And you shouldn't deport people who are here illegally and like are doing nothing wrong. But at the same time, yeah, I want them to give a. second look at everyone that Biden allowed in even legally. Yes, I want you to give a second look at that. Of course. So, I mean, people forget about Lake and Riley and Kate Steinley so quick. Don't be deterred by toxic empathy. Have compassion for people as made in the image of God.

Starting point is 01:10:10 Yes. Read my immigration chapter of toxic empathy because your good, your well-intentioned compassion will be leveraged against what is good, right, and true for this country. And so this is not about being anti-compassion, that is making sure that you are not whipped up emotionally manipulated into supporting policies that are not good. All right, that's all we got time for today. We will be back here tomorrow.

Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 1164 | Andy Stanley’s New Trans Training & Should Kids Grocery Shop Alone?

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