Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 1166 | Ex-Cultist Gives Harrowing Insight into Mysterious '2x2' Cult | Guest: Elizabeth Coleman

Episode Date: April 3, 2025

Today, we sit down with Elizabeth Coleman, author and former cult member, to hear her story and testimony of how she came to Christ. Elizabeth tells us about growing up in the cult with no name — but one that ex-members call the Two-by-Twos — and how she was conditioned from a young age to fear Christianity and other Christians. She shares how members of the Two-by-Twos believe that their beliefs are the only way to Jesus, but in fact, the cult was started in the late 1800s, not the first century. Elizabeth tells us how she met her husband at 17 and slowly started to question her beliefs throughout university, ultimately leaving the cult for the true gospel of Jesus Christ. Share the Arrows 2025 is on October 11 in Dallas, Texas! Go to sharethearrows.com for tickets now! Buy Elizabeth's book, "Cult to Christ: The Church With No Name and the Legacy of the Living Witness Doctrine": https://a.co/d/gzefsrw Buy Allie's new book, "Toxic Empathy: How Progressives Exploit Christian Compassion": https://a.co/d/4COtBxy --- Timecodes: (00:49) Elizabeth Coleman introduction (01:50) The “Two-by-Twos” cult (22:24) Growing up in the group (26:58) Leadership and rules in the group (34:57) Elizabeth meeting her husband (43:03) Hearing the Gospel (46:09) Deciding to leave the group (56:47) Evangelizing to family (01:03:20) Abuse allegations within the cult --- Today's Sponsors: America's Christian Credit Union — Switch to America's Christian Credit Union today for faith-aligned banking with exceptional rates and nationwide access. Visit https://www.americaschristiancu.com/allie to get started! Field of Greens — Use code ALLIE at FieldofGreens.com for 20% off your first order of superfood supplement for better health and energy! --- Related Episodes: Ep 1154 | Ex-New Ager Reveals Cults’ Secret Invasion of the Church | Guest: Melissa Dougherty https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/ep-1154-ex-new-ager-reveals-cults-secret-invasion-of/id1359249098?i=1000698790509 Ep 880 | The Truth About Scientology | Guests: Jeremiah Roberts & Andrew Soncrant of 'Cultish' (Part One) https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/ep-880-the-truth-about-scientology-guests-jeremiah/id1359249098?i=1000629423154 --- Buy Allie's book, You're Not Enough (& That's Okay): Escaping the Toxic Culture of Self-Love: https://alliebethstuckey.com/book Relatable merchandise – use promo code 'ALLIE10' for a discount: https://shop.blazemedia.com/collections/allie-stuckey

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That's fellowship homelones.com slash alley, term supply, see site for details, fellowship home loans, mortgage lending by the book, nationwide mortgage bankers, DBA Fellowship Home Loans, equal housing lender, NMLS, number 819382. The cult with no name. Elizabeth Coleman left a highly restrictive secret religious group in Australia over 30 years ago. And her testimony is incredibly powerful and encouraging as now we are seeing documentaries and all kinds of testimonies explode about the abuse that has occurred for decades in this cult. You will love Elizabeth's story and learn so much from it. Today's episode is brought to by our friends at GoToD Ranchers. Go to Good Ranchers.com, code alley.

That's good ranchers.com, code alley. Elizabeth, thanks so much for taking the time to join us. If you could tell everyone who you are and what you do. Okay, my name is Elizabeth Coleman. I'm from Canberra, Australia. I'm a school administrator. I've been a Christian for about 30 years and came out of a very high-control sect cult group that I grew up and was born into

third and fourth generation from both my parents' sides. And what is the name of the cult? So this is the controversial part. They officially have never given themselves a name because they believe they are the only way. They don't need a name. And so they have never officially given themselves a name. We as ex-members have called them two-by-toes and we now officially call them that. It's not derogatory. It's just descriptive of the way that their ministry works

going out in pairs, a little bit like the JWs or the Mormons, but probably a little bit more hardcore. So we call them the two by twos. They would deny having a name. Okay. So take us back. You say that you were born into this kind of nameless cult. Yeah. How long had your parents been in it? So my dad, it goes back to his mother and my mother, it goes back to her grandmother. So I'm fourth generation on my mother's side, third generation on my father's side, every single aunt and uncle cousin, and we had seven siblings on my mother's side, nine on my father's. I didn't have a single relative outside of the group.

So I was born into that, grew up in it. We did go to a secular school. And the reason for that is we're really strongly conditioned against other Christians and other churches, really strongly conditioned. So all other churches were literally called churches of the devil and false churches. So we were actually quite scared of other Christians and other churches. That's how strong the conditioning was. And the important thing to know is that we were told continuously that we were the only church not started by a man. that we went all the way back to the original apostles.

So they take their ministry from Matthew 10 and Luke 10, where Jesus sent out the disciples two by two. They actually ignore some pretty important parts of those scripture where they were going only to the lost sheep of the House of Israel. They weren't taking a bag. They weren't taking a script or purse. They were only to go to the villages that Jesus himself was about to go. But one of them, a Scotsman by the name of William Irvine,

in the late 1800s, had a sudden epiphany that maybe this was Jesus' plan for ministry for all time. So they literally started, he came out of the faith mission. He was a member of the faith mission, had been converted. It comes out of Ireland. And William Irvine himself was converted by a Presbyterian minister in Ireland. You said he's a Scotsman from the 1800s? Yes, late 1800s. A lot of these weird others.

belief systems came out of the 1800s. Yes. So the two-by-toes arose at a very similar timing to the J-Ws and the Mormons and the Seventh-day Adventists. There was this. And J-W's is Jehovah's Witness, just in case people thought they know. Yeah. Thank you. So he was part of a ministry group of an evangelism group called the Faith Mission, which was a, I think an Irish organization. they still exist to this day, but they were not a church. Their idea was to go out preaching the

gospel and people would then join local churches as Christians. But he got frustrated with people joining other churches and somewhere along the way he developed a real hatred of clergy in the established church and started to really badmouth them. This Irvine person. And this Irvine person. And somewhere along the line, and I think it was through the influence of what somebody else had said to him, he started to believe that he was the chosen one risen up by God to restore his true way on the earth. And this was in sending out ministers two by two, going out without money, going out on faith, not taking anything with them. And this is why all the other churches were false, because they didn't go purely on faith.

So they actually go out as unmarried, celibate, supposedly penniless preachers across the world. And they do it in males and females, pairs of both males and females. So William Irvine, rather than sending converted people back to established churches, started establishing his own church meetings in houses and having groups of converts meet in houses. and then they eventually developed their own baptism, bread and wine, became a completely separate group.

He ended up being excommunicated from the group, as often happens with these groups that rise up. The leader can go a bit haywire. William Irvine had delusions of grandeur. He was one of the last prophets of Revelation. This is what he believed. This is what he believed. He actually, he was, it's very strongly, strong evidence that there was some womanising going

on. He ended up being cast out of the group. And back in the early 1900s, before the internet, before easy world communication, they said, we'll just pretend this guy never existed. So they literally tried to do away with his existence. They destroyed all the records of his letters. They said nobody's ever to mention his name again. We are the real McCoy. We go right back to the beginning, we are the only church not started by a man. We go back all the way to the shores of Galilee, which is what I was told. They believe that they're Christians. And again, we keep saying they because they don't call themselves any particular name. The two by twos. So, but they believed that they are Christians. Do they call themselves Christians to this day? That's a really good question

because they don't like using terms that any other churches use. So they've tried to shy away from terms like that. But they would call themselves followers of Jesus, probably more readily than they would call themselves a Christian because they don't want to be associated with other people who call themselves Christian. They call themselves, if they're referring to their own group, they would call themselves the truth or the way, both of which are names which should only be assigned to Jesus. But they have made those terms absolutely synonymous with themselves as a

group so that they're inextricably linked, which has become actually quite a heresy, as you'll see their doctrine further down. So I was always brought up being told that we're the only church not started by a man, and they pretended this guy didn't exist. And as they moved outside the British Isles, they sent a number of their older workers. They call their ministers workers over to America. So there were some pivotal people who came to America to start the group here, to Australia. And as they moved outside the British Isles, the name of William Irvine was never heard.

So there was a guy in the 1980s who was going to become a worker and ended up having an argument with some of the workers about going in. They were supposed to give up everything. He just wanted to take his parents on a trip to Ireland and across to some war places for his parents to see before he joined the ministry. When it was discovered he was going to, I think, Ireland, there was a lot of concern about that because they were worried he might uncover some of the truth about the past. Things went very bad. He ended up being declined to go into the ministry. and he ended up researching the group and uncovering this truth of the origins and discovering this man called William Irvine, how his name was kind of resurrected because you said that this cult worked very hard to ignore who this person was because if they acknowledged that, yeah, William Irvine was the guy who got this revelation, then their whole claim that this is the only true church that goes all the way back to the apostles, that would kind of be discounted by this Irvine. Irvine guy. So this man, what's his name from the 1980s? William Irvine. No, from the 1980s.

Oh, sorry, Doug Parker. Okay. So he was the man in the 1980s that kind of started pushing some things and trying to show people, okay, the origins of this are very sketchy. So bear in mind, this is still well before the days of the internet. Yeah. So he wrote a book called the Secret sect. And very carefully researched, documented, footnoted. He knew that he would be in for a lot of trouble with people denying it. So he published the book himself. He put out newspaper advertisements for people to be able to see it. And it caused a lot of consternation, as you can imagine. People were ordered to buy the books to burn them so other people couldn't buy them and read them. People were forbidden to read them, so they obeyed. We're talking about a very

high control group that controlled many aspects of our lives. Women could not cut their hair, could not wear makeup or jewelry, could not wear pants. That's what I'm curious about. Let's get into some of their practices and doctrines because some people might be thinking, okay, well, what actually made them a cult? So tell me about what they practiced and believed. So first of all, they're a cult because they don't believe in salvation by grace. They just don't. They do preach a false gospel. They teach that Jesus was the perfect example,

and he came to show us how to live and to show us the way, the way being their ministry, their form of ministry. That is the way. So you have to follow them as the middlemen that now stand as the gatekeepers between you and God, between you and Jesus. And in following them, you have to obey them. So whatever laws they make, however arbitrary they might be, that's what you need to be obeying. So I grew up in the 80s, 90s in Australia, and I have friends and relatives who have

females who have never cut their hair in their life. Certainly no makeup, no jewelry, no television, no recorded music, no sports that's watching it or playing it. I desperately wanted to do ballet when I was younger, but it's too worldly. Anything that was too, so we had to be completely separated from the world. But if you got involved with an outsider, anybody outside we called an outsider or a stranger, so it's always us or them, there would be punishments. So if you were a professing member of the group, which meant that you took,

took part in their Sunday meetings. So they don't have any established churches, buildings. They don't believe in church buildings. They say that God doesn't dwell in buildings made by hands. Obviously, there's a lot of weird things around there, you know, hands-made houses as well. But they will only meet in a house, a personal house for their fellowship meetings. And then they will rent public schools or community halls to do their public preaching. but they say that they don't have their own church buildings.

So you cannot find an actual presence of them anywhere. If you try to look them up online, you won't be able to find a location anywhere. They're very, very opaque and almost impossible to find, which is ironic for being the only true way. You're not going to find them if you go looking for them, no name, no buildings, no established presence anywhere. So Sunday morning meeting would be 10 to 20 people

who are professing coming together, they sing a hymn, they give a testimony, which... Not like typical Christian hymns or their own hands? Really good question. So they did actually take a lot of older, well-known Christian hymns written by Christians and incorporate them into their hymn book, but they changed wording that they didn't like. For example, there's a lot of controversy around the deity of Christ. They do not believe Jesus is God, for the most part. Now, things I'm telling you will sometimes vary from person to person and region to region, but overall, they do not believe that Jesus is God because he's our elder brother, he's our perfect example, but God,

no. And they have that in, I think, in common with the Jehovah's Witnesses and the Mormons. And I think there's a verse that says it's only by the spirit that people can say Jesus is Lord. And I think that that might be what comes into play here. They deny the deity of Christ. And they downplay who he is. And we didn't worship. And worship and praise would be quite foreign phrases to them. Because we're there to follow the way and to follow the ministry and to believe in the ministry and to obey the workers.

They would say, oh yes, Jesus is our example. But Jesus is God, no, they start to get very uncomfortable with that sort of language. Okay. Yeah. And what was your experience like? From an early age, you went through all of these motions. You said you did go to a secular school. And yet you were told you can't be a part of the world.

And we're also told that you're in basically hostile opposition, especially to these other people who call themselves Christians. So what was that like when you were a child? Look, I was actually very blessed in that I had a pretty normal and safe and secure childhood. So no drinking, no drugs, no smoking. It was actually a very clean childhood in that regard. And I am one of the very fortunate ones who was not abused in any way. We'll come to that a bit later. But it is a vehicle which sadly has been allowed,

terrible abuses to perpetuate. I myself did not suffer abuse, but it was a very rigidly, it was emotional and spiritual, particularly very strong spiritual bondage and very difficult to think for yourself. It's always an us and them mentality and you develop a cognitive dissonance over everything that you come across. Everything that you read. We were especially not exposed to, I couldn't read any sort of Christian or theology books because that's them, that's the false religious world. And we always referred to them, ironically, as the Pharisees.

The religious world is the Pharisees and we're not them. We're the only true Jesus people. Wow. I hear so many similarities to a lot of subsections of like professing Christians today that may not be considered actual cults, but there are some similarities there. You do hear from some people that, oh, those who actually care about what the Bible says and want to apply it, they're the Pharisees, they're the others. We have the true Holy Spirit. It's interesting. Quick pause to tell you about our first sponsor for the day.

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superfoods in field of greens benefit a different part of your body in a different way. They even told me I'm starting to take it this week that the little ridges that I have on my nails are actually indicative of some kind of nutrient deficiency and that I should see those go away in a few weeks. And so I will keep you posted on that. I will give you an honest review if that improves after I've been taking Field of Greens for a while. Go to Fieldof Greens.com. Use code Alley. You'll get 20% off your first order. Fieldofgreens.com code Alley. You did grow up kind of in a safe environment. did you ever think it was strange that, for example, the workers, they believed, if I'm correct, that they had to sell all of their earthly possessions and be homeless, correct? So did you see that? What did that look like?

So they, because they don't have any home per se, they and they travel around, they would come and live in our region for one to two years at a time before they would swap out for another incoming pair, always in, or nearly always in pairs. And then they would stay in the homes of members. So you're looking at a priesthood a little bit like the Catholic Church, unmarried celibate, but living in the homes of members. And I'm sure you've already got some red flags going up. So they would only come to see us maybe for a night or two, but they had absolute authority in our lives. So they would ring and say, we are coming on Wednesday.

We are staying three nights. and you didn't argue or what they said when. So if they said they were coming and it was a huge privilege to have them in your home, but it was also difficult because you had to put on the absolute best possible front. Everything had to be perfect. You had to make sure you didn't say anything that you were doing anything, that you were allowed to be doing, that they saw anything in your home, that you, I mean, there's very funny stories about when microwaves first came in, one of the workers going to a house and becoming very angry at the couple who lived there about their television set and they had no idea what he was talking about. They didn't have a television and then he went and pointed to the microwave oven. So, and then there were people who, if they got separated or divorced for any reason, including adultery, could be stopped from taking part in a meeting.

their testimony and bread and wine stopped, which is effectively a form of excommunication, people who remarried in some parts of the world and particularly so in some parts of America here would be told they were not welcome to come back to the church unless they actually divorced the person that they had married. And many people have done that. They have divorced the person they were married to

because they were told to by the workers. And I don't know the American scene as well, but I know that out of the West Coast and the East Coast that one side is much more strict. One allows remarriage. The other one absolutely does not. And there was a division back in the earlier days where they're still part of the same group, but one of them took a much more hard line and they sort of separated into Eastern Coast doctrines on some of those matters. Yeah. Interesting. So when you were a child and you were going to school with these people who obviously did not believe the things that you believed, were there, was there ever a moment where you thought, huh, my life looks a little different. I'm not allowed to cut my hair. I'm not allowed to wear pants. I'm not allowed to do ballet. These people are, do you remember ever a moment thinking, all the time. It was an absolute constant. But we were always taught that, you know,

we were the special people. Yeah. We were the special people and we were privileged people. We were told this a lot. And the thing you learn about growing up in a high control group, and I didn't know this until I started to dissect it when I was older, these mantras, these thought-stopping, cliche phrases are conditioned into you from a young age and they're what you always repeat in your mind to stop yourself going outside.

the thought boundaries. So you develop these very strong thought boundaries that stop you moving outside the comfortable and the accepted. So one of the phrases was, don't give the devil a foothold. So if you started thinking outside the box, you go, ah, don't give the devil a foothold. And you would physically stop yourself thinking any further on that front. And we're not talking about actual sin. Giving a devil a foothold in this context could have been. you asking, but wait, the Bible doesn't say that. Absolutely. And that is a really good point because asking questions was about the worst thing you could do. You do not ask questions. You do not contradict a worker. You never question a worker. What the worker says goes and things get

pretty uncomfortable very quickly. And you learn from a young age not to ask questions. But one of the big questions I had, I remember as a teenager, and I look, I did buy into the whole thing. I professed in the group at 16. I wanted to be faithful. I wanted to be zealous. I completely bought into it. But I remember sitting there under the preaching and hearing about Jesus and the way and the ministry and following and going, why did he have to be crucified?

Like the crucifixion of Jesus and his resurrection did not fit into their gospel at all. Like what was the point? There was absolutely no point in Jesus being crucified and risen. If he's just an example. Because he's an example and we're saved by being in the way and we're saved by following the workers. Jesus came to show us a perfect way. And they always say Jesus was, he came to give us the pattern. He was the pattern maker.

And all of that, what about the crucifixion? Like, where does that fit? Oh, it's just because people hated him. So that was a huge question in my mind that I just couldn't reconcile and couldn't work out at all. So yes, there were always questions, but we weren't allowed to ask questions. And one of the ways I described it was I felt like there was a cage around my whole head with bands that were there in place. And if I would start to think too much, those bands would start to press and hurt. And I became later when I met my husband, that really became a problem to the point where one,

am I not allowed to think? And I even, you know, went back to God created me with a mind. God gave me the ability to think and reason. Is God saying I can't think or reason? That's the point I came to early on when I was wrestling with, how do I step outside the boundaries, the conditioned boundaries that I had been learned that you couldn't think past, the letting the devil in, which was a really big fear and having a doubting spirit.

and having a doubting spirit or a rebellious spirit, all of these things that we were taught that we had if we questioned or tried to step outside the boundaries. Does this group teach that all other people outside of the way are going to hell? Effectively, yes, literally no. So if you ask them, they will say almost without fail, we don't judge. But if you leave, they will say, you have lost out, you're going to hell.

They will say that to you. They will never say that to an outsider. But it's effectively true. They believe that in their heart of hearts. If you leave your parents, your friends, your family will be absolutely devastated and know that you're going to a lost, they'll say you're going to a lost eternity. But if you specifically ask them that, they will say, well, we don't know and we can't judge. Yeah.

And what does the doctrine making, look like. If William Irvine and his principles, or some of them, I guess, had been abandoned, what does the leadership and the rulemaking of this group actually look like? Really good question. So they would deny that they are like other churches in having a hierarchy and an establishment and an organization. One of the things they very often say is we are not an organization because they're just a ministry. It's completely false. They do. actually have now a well-established organization hierarchy. They just keep it completely hidden.

So over the house churches, they have elders, which are just ordinary members who are married and have families, and it will usually be the father whose house the meeting is in, who's the elder. Out of the workers, there are junior workers, there are elder workers, there are senior workers, there are senior workers, there are overseers who would be in charge of a state or a country, depending on the size of the place. And we've even found out more recently that now and then overseers from each state or country will come together for more worldwide or world-specific meetings.

They're very careful not to record anything officially or to have anything written down. So all the rules, they absolutely exist, but they will say, we don't have any rules. What rules? And we'll say, well, what about, you know, the things that we're not allowed to do? Oh, they're not rules. The spirit just will convince you of those things and the spirit will convict you. And if you're truly professing that you will naturally start to do all these things because the spirit's convicting you of that. So they're very careful not to have written records anywhere. Wow. Another pause to remind you guys about Share the Arrows, we just locked in our last two speakers to be announced, but we've already announced an incredible lineup with Elisa Childers

and Katie Faust. We've got Taylor Dukes from Taylor Duke's Wellness and Shauna Holman from a little less toxic for our health panel. We have also got Francesca Battistelli Grammy Award winning artist, leading worship. Ginger Dugger Volo and I will be having a really good conversation on stage. It's just going to be so solid. And then we will also have a panel that is focused on motherhood and child discipleship. But this is for women of any age and any life stage. And I want you to come. I want you to come by yourself. I want you to come with friends or with family. If you do come alone, don't worry. You will make lifelong friends. This is such an edifying and unique day. Women need good theology and solid apologetics. We can stand being to

challenged, being pushed, and that is what Share the Arrows is about. It will imbue you by the grace of God with the courage that you need to contend with the powers that be and with the hostile culture that we are facing that our children are facing. So go to sharetheeroes.com, get your tickets. The seats are limited. And so once we run out, we run out, and I don't want that to happen to you. So go to SharetheArows.com, get your tickets, book all of the logistics and everything today, share the arrows.com. Obviously, one of the hallmarks of a cult is being extremely legalistic because even though they are calling other people Pharisees, a cult believes that you have to abide by all of their

doctrines, as you said, no matter how arbitrary, that is the way to salvation. And you tell a story about a family who had to attend a meeting and their son said, I've got these stomach pains. and they said, well, we can't miss this meeting and then a tragic outcome resulted from that. Can you tell us that story? Yeah, so it wasn't until I wrote that story and it appeared in my book that someone related to me came and said that was actually my uncle. So you couldn't miss a meeting no matter what. You go to every single meeting.

So we had Sunday morning meeting, Sunday night meeting. they were generally in homes, Wednesday night meeting in a home, and then they would have public preaching for a good part of the year that we had to go to when the workers were in town. So it could be a Sunday night and a Thursday night as well as the Sunday morning. So sometimes we were going to meetings four times a week, sometimes up to an hour away, and you did not miss a meeting. People would come after you and ask, especially the workers, if you were missing meetings.

So you could not miss for any reason. And this was some decades ago now, but yes, the younger boy had terrible stomach pains and said to his parents, he was in terrible pain. They said he had to go to meeting. Everybody goes to meeting. They all went in the car. He was in too much pain to get out of the car. So they left him in the car and went inside to the meeting. And when they came back out, his appendix had actually ruptured.

And he died. Wow. So that is the stock that they put into following the rules. Yes. That it doesn't matter what it is. We don't want to be excluded from this. You mentioned when you were 16 that you professed. What is that?

So they, I find it's interesting, they don't actually make a public profession of faith the way that we would as Christians. But in their gospel meetings, everybody comes along and just sits and listens while the workers preach. So one worker will preach. There'll be a hymn in between, the other worker will preach.

And then once or twice a year, they will test the meeting. So they will say, if anybody wants to follow Jesus in this way, during the last verse of this hymn, they're to stand to their feet. So that means you're committing yourself to life in the group. As a member, you can now give your testimony. But you still have to prove yourself for up to several years to see if you're worthy to ask for baptism. And it's not until after baptism that you can take bread and wine in a Sunday morning meeting. So I could never actually bring myself to be baptized in the group and I wasn't.

But I did stand to my feet when I was 16, which sounds maybe young, but I was like the latest of my peer group. A lot of my friends had professed when they were 13, 14, even 12, some as young as 11 or 8. So I was actually pretty late coming to the party, and that was probably due to some of my questions. Yeah. life to God rather than to the group. And afterwards, people are coming up and nearly crying and hugging me and congratulating me. And I was a bit bewildered by that and thinking this is to do with me and God, I don't know why you're all so excited.

Yeah. So I really did feel it was my relationship with God and I felt convicted to do it. I wasn't doing it because I felt that I should. I know many people would and did do that, but I felt like it was the right time for me, and I felt like I was committing my life to God at that time. Yeah. Tell me about meeting your husband pretty shortly after that when you were 17. Yes.

So this is a really unusual story. So in Canberra, we finished high school at the age of 16. And then there's often two years called college, the ages of 17, 18, before we go on to university, if we're going on to university. if we're going on to university from the ages of 18, 19 onwards. So it's a new school, new buildings, and the first week, I think it was the first time I'd walked into my English class in this new school, I saw this guy across the room

and something went through my mind like writing on a wall. What would you say if someone told you that was the man you were going to marry one day? Well, I freaked out a bit, like what was that? where did that come from? Yeah. And then my immediate follow-up thought was, that's never going to happen. Because he's an outsider. Well, he's an outsider.

And I wasn't even attracted to him. My husband says it was hate at first sight. I wasn't attracted to him. I had no idea. I thought that was weird. And I'm never going to talk to him. And so then I will never marry him. I'll never have anything to do with him.

You were disturbed by your own thought, though. I was very disturbed. Because it felt like it was coming from the outside. It felt like it had come from the outside. and that's the weirdest thing ever, and that's not going to come true, and I'm going to make sure it doesn't come true. That was my response.

So any time we did have to interact and we were put in a group assignment together, I was quite rude and abrupt to him. Yeah. But as that year went on, I started to get a really pressing burden that I had to speak to him. And I ignored it for months.

I just ignored it. you know, my mind playing tricks on me. This is ridiculous. I've got to make sure that this premonition or whatever it was doesn't come true. And then I eventually started praying about it. And for a long time, I just said no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, it's not going to happen. And then I said, why, why, why, why? And then my friends started saying to me, because obviously I wasn't going to tell anybody about this. My friend said, look, something's eating away at you. We don't know what it is, but you need to get it sorted. And I got to the point where I wasn't eating or sleeping properly and it was on my mind all the time.

Like I just couldn't function. So I finally literally said to God, Lord, I give up. I just give up. Like I will talk to this guy. I have no idea what you want me to say, but I give up. So the next day at school where we crossed paths where he came out of a building and I was going in, he had a hole in the side of his nose and blood all over his face. And I said, what happened to you?

He'd been attacked by a bird on the way to school that morning. We have these birds that get very violent during breeding season. Australia things. Yeah, Australian things. So magpies. So he'd been attacked by magpies. He'd ridden his bike to school that morning. Yeah.

So they go for the eyes. And fortunately, it didn't get his eye. and if you're riding, you wear glasses to make sure they can't get... I know, I know. Sorry, normal part of life in our suburbs. It's the protected species. You know what? But God sent that magpie to spark y'all's conversation that day.

Yeah, but of course, that's not the way I saw it. I mean, that was certainly the opening. And I invited him to come and have lunch with me, and we became friends from that day. And from the very beginning, he told me straight up that he was a Christian. And I was like, oh. well, God wants to introduce me to the, wants me to introduce him to the one true way, obviously. Yeah, that's true thinking. I have the true way.

He says he's a Christian. Well, obviously God wants to bring him into my group. So that was my aha moment, like, oh, that's what it's all about. So we became, we developed a solid friendship and were friends for probably a good year before things developed more romantically. And then that's when things got really difficult. because my, all of my faith and what I believed was starting to be queried. He was trying to find out what I believed and what this group was and what they believed and came along to some of the meetings and told me some of the concerns that he had.

So we had a courtship over three to four years, but certainly after the three year mark, things were really difficult. and I couldn't see a way out of where we were. I believed something very different to what he believed and how could there be a future in it? And I just kept saying, Lord, why did you put me here? There's no future in this relationship. I've become involved with this person who isn't going to join the way

and I can't leave and things were really difficult. So were you thinking at that point that your purpose in dating him all those years was to bring him to the way? Yes, absolutely. Okay, so it wasn't like you were in defiance or in rebellion. No. You thought that this was evangelism. Yep.

Okay. Yeah. So, of course, he was asking lots of questions that started sparking difficult things in my brain. So one of the earlier things he said to me was, look, I had to talk to your workers, and they don't believe that Jesus is God. And I'm like, what do you mean? Jesus is not God. So that was one of the earlier things that was raised.

But the further things went along and I tried to talk to the workers about it. And this was a little way, probably two to three years into our relationship. One of them said, look, we've had a talk to him. He has too many questions. We don't think he's ever going to come on board. But don't worry, you'll be right. There are plenty more fish in the sea. Like, you know, this is obviously, this relationship's a dead end.

time to cut him off. Yeah. But I finished college and started going to university. And I actually didn't never finish my degree. I was only there. And I have to say that was quite unusual. Most of my female friends had left school at 16. Yeah.

They had not even gone to college. It was kind of interesting. My mother was always never quite with the rules. And she really wanted me to get a further education. My father didn't, and that was his background. You didn't get a further education, particularly as a female. So me going to university was unusual, but my mother was pushing quite hard for that for me.

So they had on campus preaching, evangelical preaching, and so I started going along to that because it was the only place I could go that my parents and the church didn't know I was going. because if I went to church, I would be missing our usual meetings. So that was my rebellious days at university, was sneaking into evangelical preaching on campus. And they had it on a Tuesday and a Thursday lunchtime,

and they were actually using the same sermon for both. So I would go along to both and hear the same sermon and then a different one the following week. And one day the preacher was speaking on here. Hebrews and the Old Testament sacrifices and dealing with the sins of the people and then Jesus being the once for all sacrifice for the sin of the people. And it was like the roof I lifted off. And I was like, how can I have been looking at the Bible my whole life and sitting under preaching my whole life and nobody ever told me this? Jesus is the once for all sacrifice and all the

Old Testament sacrifices are, you know, a picture of this to come. And that was the first really major revelation to me. But from that time came the period of what do I do now? How do I leave the... Leading still seemed incomprehensible. But I got to a point where I realized it was too late to walk back inside the dark room and shut the door. It felt like the door or the window had been opened and I had to walk through it and it was terrifying to leave the room where I'd grown up. It's actually more like a village. It's a whole cultural, tribal village that you belong to and once you leave that village, the gates close behind you and that's it. You know, you have none of your formal life. You lose all of your friends and family in the group. You're now an

outsider and that's a huge thing. But I also realized I'd come too far to just shut the door. I couldn't stay in there. My mind had been opened to too much and I'd seen and learned too much to be able to close the door. So when I, and I was sitting on the fence for a very long time, when I finally left because I was, I'd gotten to the point of being in tremendous emotional and mental and spiritual turmoil. 19. You're 19. And did you still have a relationship with David at all?

Yes. So we were still seeing each other. And he was getting a lot of counsel from friends and family that I was too brainwashed. I was never going to leave. He needed to think about ending this relationship. And he prayed about it a lot. And he said the only answer he got all of those years was just wait. weight. He said it's the only word God would give me weight. Yeah. Next sponsor is America's Christian

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How does it actually come to a head? When do you actually decide to leave and what does it look like? So it got to a point where I realized I had to leave. So I, because we had the meeting in our home and my dad was an elder, I had to set up the lounge room every Sunday and vacuum it and set out the chairs. And on a Sunday morning before the meeting, before people arrived, I was in the kitchen and I said to my dad, I'm not coming to the meeting. And like that was a huge thing. And I said, I'm going down to, and David's Church was actually within walking distance. about two kilometers, probably a bit over a mile in your distances.

And dad was pretty gentle and he looked at me in bewilderment and he said, but you know that this is the true way. And I said, Dad, I really don't. I really don't know that. So he went out and told my mother and then a storm came in the door in that my mother in that my mother just came in in a rage. She was absolutely distraught and she yelled and she cried and you're going to kill your father and he's going to have a heart attack and die because of your rebelliousness and I can't believe you're doing. You know, all of this sort of really,

she was just absolutely distraught. So I never went back to meetings from that day, but I was also plunged into a really time of terrible darkness. where I couldn't find my feet. Yeah. And I really felt like was I actually leaving God in leaving the group? I knew a sense of the gospel, but I didn't know how I could grasp hold of it personally. How could it be mine?

And I didn't find out until a year or two later that I was actually suffering post-traumatic stress. disorder and that many other people in circumstances similar to mine go through very similar thing. Being completely separated from everything that you've known, trying to break free of that conditioning, because I still had all of that conditioning. There's still a very deep fear in me. What if I've done the wrong thing? What if I'm leaving for David? What if I've, it just felt like a massive spiritual battle. Were you cut off from your family from that point on? they don't do official shunning, but it does happen in various ways to various people,

depending on the circumstances. No, I was not cut off from my family, but it became impossible for me to stay living there because my mother in particular at that time did everything she could to stop me living the house on a Sunday morning. She would try and delay me. I still had to set up the meeting room, and I was trying to get out before members would arrive, things just got very tough. And she was genuinely terrified for me. So whenever I would come home from work, she would be crying and saying something terrible is going to happen to you

because they have this deep belief that if you leave, you're going to die suddenly. You're going to have a car accident or God's going to punish you and you're going to be struck down dead. And she was absolutely terrified. So she was always crying and telling me something terrible. going to happen to me. And I was already not in a great way myself. So I ended up having to move out. I think within about six months of me leaving and I did some house-sitting jobs and then I rented an apartment with a friend. So it did become very, but all the rest of the members of the church, even the workers, nobody contacted me, nobody at all. So it was as though I had ceased to exist effectively. And do you remember when you fully not only understood the gospel, but accepted it and

realized where you actually belonged in the body of grace? Yes, and I might cry here somewhere. That's okay. So things got really bad and I was working by now. I had taken a public service job. I had left my degree to start a public service job in a traineeship, a work study program. And I was in a bad way. And the people I worked with, had didn't really know what was going on in my life but they were very compassionate and my supervisor actually found me curled up under my desk one day I was just in such emotional pain yeah and he told me I really needed to go home and do whatever I needed to do and I went to David's pastor and I was very much at the end of myself I I had an understanding what the gospel was but I just didn't understand how I could take hold of it.

And he sat with me for, I don't know, it might have been an hour or two. And he really explained the gospel to me. And he used a telephone directory. And I'll use one of these books, if you don't mind as example. So he said, you know, here is you and God looking at you. Here are all your sins. This is between you and God. Everything that you've ever done will do.

the whole past of your sins, all of that is on you and between you and God. And Jesus, when he died on the cross, he took that punishment and he took all of your sins and put them on him. When God looks at Jesus, he sees all those sins on him being punished. And when God looks at you, you can be seen as completely clean and righteous as Christ because your sins are no longer on you. They're all on Christ. So he used that example and also explained to me how much the workers sounded like the Pharisees, putting heavy burdens on people, taking the place of pride at the mill times and in their lifestyle.

And it was. We adulated them. They were our authority. And to me, it was a complete flip of everything that I had ever known because the religious, religious world was the Pharisees, right? But no, these men I had grown up under the authority of, they were the Pharisees with the rules and the regulations and putting themselves in the place of Christ. And I really understood, and I still said to him, you know, but what do I need to do? And he said, that's it. You can't do. It's not about doing. You need to accept. You need to believe.

That's all you have to do. There is no doing. Jesus has done all of the doing. And I fully accepted and believed from that time. And later when I read parts of Pilgrim's Progress, I felt exactly like Christian when the rock, the boulder rolls off the back. Yeah, that I had set down this heavy load of, because the language we use in the group is about being worthy. You know, we're not worthy and we're trying to be worthy and we're trying. And the language in Testimony's is I just want to go out and try

and do better in the coming days. I want to try and be worthy and Lord make me worthy. It's the language they use all the time because there is no assurance because it's all based on their own performance, on the keeping of rules, on the following of the workers. You never know if you're doing enough. So all of that was gone. So I was a Christian and a believer from that time

and a few, probably a few weeks or months, I'm not sure of the timing later, I was praying by the side of my bed one night. And that voice came from the outside again, you need to be baptized. And I went, what? You need to be baptized. So I was, yeah. And you were how old at this point? I was either 20 or 21 by this point. I think it was about July when I was 21 because I got married the following year when I was, yeah.

Yeah, and where were you baptized? Were you baptized at David's church? Yes, yeah, I was, yeah. And then you got married. So that outside voice that you had tried so hard to suppress in the beginning. Yes, which I never thought would ever come true. Then we got married when we were around. Dave was 20 and I was 21, yeah.

So we'd been together for almost four weeks. years by that point or about four years. Yes. And how long have you been married now? It'll be 30 years this December. Wow. Last, I just want to remind you guys to please support me, support the show, and support everyone at Blaze TV that is trying to champion critical thinking and free speech and the values that you and I share in a space that is very hostile to these views.

by subscribing to Blaze TV. We don't know what's going to happen with big tech. We are still fighting a battle behind the scenes every day with YouTube and Google and Apple to make sure that our stuff is treated fairly and that it is actually seen. And you never know what's going to happen if one day we're just going to be the platformed. The way that you can really support us and help us out and protect us and ensure you still have access to our content. and that you're able to continue to be a part of the community that Relatable has built is by subscribing at blazedtv.com slash alley.

You not only get this show, you get to watch it without all of the YouTube ads, but you also get access to exclusive content that I only have for subscribers, all kinds of stuff that we've produced. And then also you get access to all of the exclusive content of all of our other Blaze TV hosts. If you use my link, blazedTV.com slash alley, you get $20 off. That's blazTV.com slash alley. I'm sure that after you became a Christian, there was such a burden on you for the people that were still in that cults, especially your family. Yes. So I'm sure you tried to explain to especially your parents. Especially the workers, none of whom contacted me, which is very strange.

these are supposed to be your spiritual leaders and you disappear and they never contact you or follow you up or anything. And I thought, they don't know the gospel. I have to go and tell them. Like I have to go and tell them. So I rang them and said, want to see you? Want to talk to you? And they were like, no. And it took quite some pressing on my part.

And eventually one of them on the phone said, we will only come and see you if you never tell anybody. we came to see you. You are not allowed to repeat any of the conversation we have with you. If you tell anybody that we have been to see you or repeat anything that we have said to you, we will deny it. So we will call you a liar for telling the truth. Wow. Okay. So they came and I tried to explain. Well, there were several different, several different instances with several different lots of workers. One of them, I tried to explain. how we can have full assurance and salvation now. They called me presumptuous and arrogant.

And I said, well, you know, what are you going to say when you die and God says why he should let you into heaven? Well, well, I've done my best. And I said, well, I'm going to say I'm trusting in Jesus' blood. And when I tried to tell them who Jesus really was, they used the Old King James version. And I had an NIV at the time. And they said, oh, that's just a clever. NIV translation. They didn't know that it was a legitimate copy of the Bible. And I said, you know,

scripture clearly says that Jesus is God. And they refused to open their Bible and read the same passage from theirs. They just said, we're very sorry, this has happened to you. We want you to go home and pray that Jesus will open your blind eyes. And we will take you back when you come to your senses. Wow. That's what they told me. The other ones, I think, I think that was, that was just after I'd left and the following year I tried with the next pair that came into town and by then I had come in contact so the internet was in its earliest sort of days of common use by now and I started finding other people overseas in America here who had left and become Christians and this was such a massive thing for me because I didn't know anybody who had left.

I wasn't in contact with anyone else who had left, certainly not in contact with anybody who would become a Christian. So you really, it's hard to have a lot of confidence. You think, am I the only one who this has happened to? So got in contact with people overseas, they had started writing books about their experiences in coming out of the group and also pamphlets. You know, what does this group believe?

What's the gospel? What is truth? And they had sent me some of those. I gave those to the workers and I said, look, I've been lied to, I've been deceived about the origins of the group. I discovered the truth about the history. They were really angry about me bringing that up. We are not going to talk about this. It's none of your business. Because you've left, it's none of your business now. Leave us alone. And I said, well, I'm one of the people you deceived and you have a responsibility to tell people the truth and I will be telling the truth to

anybody who asks me. Well, from that time, they officially and publicly put out a smear campaign against me. I got some really weird phone calls from people I didn't know in other states saying who are you or what have you done? Because we've been told that no one's allowed to contact you or talk to you, but we don't know why. There was just one or two brave people who said, what have you actually done? But they were so afraid, which is ridiculous. Like I'm a 20-year-old, 21-year-old woman, and they're just all running scared and saying, nobody's allowed to talk to Elizabeth, because what I had was that dangerous. And your parents?

Yeah, so 18 months after I left or was married around that time, when I got some of the books and pamphlets from America, I left them at my parents' house, and my mother picked them up and started to read and bells and flags, red flags, started going up in her mind. And she ended up being accused of giving some of the pamphlets that I had two new converts that were coming along to their public meetings. She actually hadn't, but she was accused and excommunicated because of that. And also because, I think it was mostly because she had started asking questions of the workers.

And they suddenly saw her as a huge problem. and so they just excommunicated her. And she refused to go along and just sit silently in the meetings as a person under punishment when she hadn't done anything that they'd accused her of doing. So that was the end for her. And she started voraciously reading her Bible and suddenly seeing the gospel for the first time and then coming to church with us. My dad remained as an elder for another six years.

And when his mother died, he contacted the workers to have them come to take the meeting out of his house. The day they arrived on the doorstep, a major firestorm had swept through Canberra and the whole suburb had been raised. Theirs was one of the only houses left standing, but substantially damaged. And so my dad never went back from that day either. So both of them became Christians and had left. And I have two younger brothers who have both left. So all my immediate family is out. All of my aunts and uncles both sides are still in.

But I do have quite a few cousins who have come out now, some who are Christians, some aren't. And you mentioned before we close, I want to make sure that we talk about this. because you alluded to earlier that when the workers would come stay at family's home, since they were essentially homeless, this caused some problems. And you've written about some of the sexual abuse allegations within the cult. Can you just talk about that a little bit?

So back in the time I left, it was very hard. I didn't know much about this at all. And it was very hard to know much. It was all very hidden and quiet. As the years went on, I started to hear stories of people having them. abused by workers staying in their homes and we're talking child sexual assault. And almost exactly two years ago or two years ago this week, things blew wide open here in America that one of their most revered overseer workers was found in a motel room, which is strange in itself because they

didn't stay in motels. They stayed in the homes of members. It turned out that, well, there's been a lot of money stuck piled behind the scenes. They don't actually go out on faith, but everything's completely opaque. There's no transparency. Nobody knows how much money is back there. But he had been staying, he had a card from a motel chain, he had a credit card. He had been meeting multiple sexual partners, including underage partners for a very long time, this whole secret, hidden life. he was so revered that when he died several hundred eulogies were written about him by members so many that they actually published a book of them and then a few of the sister workers i believe started coming forward and saying we have a problem with this guy being so revered he abused us

and that letter from them or information about that which was supposed to stay contained within the group got leaked and went viral and suddenly opened the floodgates to a whole Me Too movement within the two by twos within the last two years, especially here in America. Wow. And we had people coming forward in the dozens and then the hundreds and then the thousands. And last year the FBI announced a worldwide investigation into the group because workers who had abused were often then shifted across state lines and across countries to re-offend in other places.

So they would take the offender, move them somewhere else, try to smooth things over in the local area, send the perpetrator elsewhere. And the whole group is so perfectly, unfortunately, set up for abuse because of the authority that these people hold in the lines of the members. You don't question a worker, a worker cannot do wrong. They're God's only true agent. How could they possibly be doing these things? They're the true way, the true ones.

So there's been a massive exodus of thousands of people in the last two years and more stories being uncovered. And now there's just an explosion of YouTube's and TikToks and documentaries. There's been some Hulu documentaries about abuse within the group. and they're starting to be recognised on the world stage for the first time. Wow. Because you have to remember beforehand, there are lots of occasional stories,

and they'd be reported somewhere locally, but they're unrecognizable because there's no name to attach to it. Right. So something happening in three different places, you would never put it together as being the same group, but they're starting to be internationally recognized, and it'll be really interesting to see what comes out of the FBI investigation. Yeah.

And anybody who knows of this group who has been in this group who knows of abuse now is the time to contact FBI, even if you don't live in America, they will come and see you an interview to you. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for being a part of that and for sharing your story. Can you tell people where they can find your book? My book, Culture Christ, is available pretty much anywhere online through Amazon and ebook and eBook and Kindle. So, yes. And also, I would really like to mention that because the history has been so hidden and disclosed, Doug Parker's book, The Secret Sect, is no longer in print. But my friend Cherie, who was one of the first people I came in contact with who sent me

all those pamphlets years ago, she has written the definitive book of the whole history of the group called Preserving the Truth. And that's designed to be a really non-confrontational book, which just has all the facts of the history that you can find out. It's not meant to be a theological book. It's supposed to be non-threatening for anybody in the group to be able to learn more about the history of how the group evolved and where it's come to today.

Well, Elizabeth, thank you so much. I really appreciate you taking the time to share your story. Thanks, Sally.