Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 1179 | Submissive Wife, Bold Evangelist: Embracing True Womanhood | Guest: Audrey Broggi

Episode Date: April 28, 2025

Today, we sit down with Christian speaker and writer Audrey Broggi to discuss just what it means to submit to and respect your husband as a faithful wife. We talk about the importance of trusting God in your relationship and what a woman should do when she might have difficulty submitting to her husband. Audrey encourages single women and young mothers to seek God in their relationships and to nurture their families as they are called. Share the Arrows 2025 is on October 11 in Dallas, Texas! Go to ⁠sharethearrows.com⁠ for tickets now! Watch the latest episode of Relatable at Home, "Liturgy-Led Living: Following the Christian Calendar," featuring Danielle Hitchen exclusively on BlazeTV: ⁠https://get.blazetv.com/allie/⁠ Buy Allie's new book, "Toxic Empathy: How Progressives Exploit Christian Compassion": ⁠https://a.co/d/4COtBxy⁠ --- Timecodes: (01:12) Audrey Broggi introduction (04:15) “When you know you know”  (09:08) Fostering respect in a relationship  (17:39) Submission in marriage  (29:25) Audrey’s life as a pastor’s wife (37:35) Teaching young mothers & women  --- Today's Sponsors: Seven Weeks — Experience the best coffee while supporting the pro-life movement with Seven Weeks Coffee; use code ALLIE at https://www.sevenweekscoffee.com to save up to 25% off your first order, plus your free gift of their new single-serve brew bags! A’del — Try A'del's hand-crafted, artisan, small-batch cosmetics and use promo code ALLIE 25% off your first time purchase at AdelNaturalCosmetics.com Freedom Project Academy — Take back your child’s education at Freedom Project Academy. Right now, save 15% on all courses when you enroll at freedomforschool.com and use code ALLIE15. --- Links: "Rare But Real" Podcast https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/rare-but-real/id1599342968 --- Related Episodes: Ep 1163 | Self-Centered Women’s Ministries Are Making the Church Weak | Guest: Natasha Crain https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/ep-1163-self-centered-womens-ministries-are-making/id1359249098?i=1000701631532 Ep 1165 | Robot Wombs & Why Gen Z Women Reject Jesus https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/ep-1165-robot-wombs-why-gen-z-women-reject-jesus/id1359249098?i=1000701955148 Ep 1140 | What Christian Men Look For in a Woman | Guest: Timothy Stuckey (Chief Relatabro) https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/ep-1140-what-christian-men-look-for-in-a-woman/id1359249098?i=1000691988398 --- Buy Allie's book, You're Not Enough (& That's Okay): Escaping the Toxic Culture of Self-Love: ⁠https://alliebethstuckey.com/book⁠ Relatable merchandise – use promo code 'ALLIE10' for a discount: ⁠https://shop.blazemedia.com/collections/allie-stuckey

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That's fellowship homelones.com slash alley, term supply, see site for details, fellowship home loans, mortgage lending by the book, nationwide mortgage bankers, DBA Fellowship Home Loans, equal housing lender, NMLS, number 819-382. What should you look for in a spouse? And if you are married to an unbelieving husband, how can you point him to the Lord? How can you be a good wife and mom fulfilling your calling at home and maybe also a call to teaching and to ministry? Today we've got Audrey Brogey here. She is a Christian mother, grandmother, pastor's wife, writer, teacher, podcaster. She is just incredible and she is going to tell us her testimony today and interweave so much beautiful biblical wisdom within that.

We will be talking about the sometimes touchy subject of biblical submission in marriage and what that really looks like and how the Holy Spirit empowers us to obey God and respect our husbands. And it's just amazing. You will be lifted up so much by everything she has to say. Today's episode is brought to you by our friends at Good Ranchers. Go to Good Ranchers.com code Alley. That's good ranchers.com code alley.

Audrey Brogey, thank you so much for taking the time to join us. Could you tell everyone who may not know who you are and what you do? Well, as you've already said my name, Audrey Brogey, but the main thing I am is a pastor's wife. My husband's a pastor. We've been in Beaufort, South Carolina, for, what is it, 35 years now since 1990. We went there after he finished seminary. Before that, we're on staff with Campus Crusade for Christ,

and I served alongside with him back in the day when it was like a, I mean, It was just wonderful. Yeah. It's a little different. It's a little different now. A little different, yeah. Which makes me sad because we love it where there's so much that we both learned. In fact, my husband came to Christ through the ministry of Campus Crusade for Christ when he was a freshman at Boston College.

Wow. And it's interesting because when he was there, he went to a meeting. He'd had a lawnmour accident and he started thinking about God a lot more. and he went to this meeting and they asked him, well, how long have you been a Christian? He said about six months because that's how long he'd been thinking about God, more. And so that night they were training people how to share their faith. And when they were doing the training, he realized he didn't know the Lord. And he trusted Christ that night.

And so, but anyway, I've been serving alongside him with him in ministry since that time. And for the past 35 years, been very involved at our time. church, community Bible church in Beaufort. Well, there's so much I want to ask you within that. How did y'all meet? We met when I was a student at the University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill, and I was very involved in the ministry of Campus Crusade for Christ as a student when I was a sophomore, a very close friend of mine, not a boyfriend, but a good friend got killed in a car accident. And I devastated me. And then I didn't know about Campus Crusade for Christ at that time,

but a really good, oh, actually I should say a really good friend. It was a guy I was dating. Okay, this time it was a guy. It was a guy, different guy, but he was at NC State, and he invited me to go to the Campus Christmas Conference. When I went to that, I had answered a lot of questions. It really helped me, and then I got involved with Campus Crusade when I came back. All that to say, I got involved, and then Carl came to our campus when I was a junior

on staff. And so I knew about him that year by reputation. I wasn't, we weren't dating or anything. But then as time progressed and the other relationship dissolved, then he jumped in. And so we started dating my senior year in college and then got married after I graduated. So that's how we met. It was through Campus Crusade. So you dated for a few months, engaged for a few months, got married.

And how, oh, go ahead. Oh, I was going to say September is when we started. started dating, engaged by Thanksgiving and married in June. Oh, I love it. When you know, you know. That's right. Right. And I mean, I'll just pause on that because that's probably a question that a lot of young women who are listening have is how do you know. I always talk about how I was told when you know you know when I was in college and that always frustrated me so much because I wanted a formula. I wanted someone to tell me that there's going to be writing on the wall that's going to tell you this is the one and that was, you know, previous relationship. It was actually me just knowing that

that was the wrong relationship and so I wanted someone to tell me something. But then when I met my husband, I realized that that's really true. That's not everything. It's not just a feeling, but that is something there that you just kind of know. So can you talk about that for anyone navigating that? Well, you know, it's interesting because, you know, I knew Carl by reputation. my junior year in college, had no interest in him, but I knew him by reputation. I knew when he came there that he was leading students to Christ. He is an evangelist. You know, we know God saves people, but he wants us to share the gospel. And he was just a share of the gospel machine. That's an all thing I know to say. So I knew him by reputation and really respected him. And I heard him

teach the Bible. And I remember kind of being blown away because I knew he had become a Christian. I'd heard him share his testimony. First time on my campus, he was. came to at that time what was called college life and he spoke myself included we all started laughing because his accent was so strong and we and i always tell him we weren't laughing at you we were just he was from boston yes so we had the what's the what's the cae baqtka oh yeah that's right that's right and all of you southern people were like what is this what is this yeah but anyway all that to say is like so i knew him by reputation because lots of times people will say it went really fast by the time we started dating. And it did. But I respected him first. I knew him by reputation. So then when I came back to

college my senior year and I was not involved in a relationship and he started just kind of moved in and asked me to go out with him. And I did. But I was not. It's so interesting because I was not, and he laughs when I tell this. I said, I really was not interested. I just respected you so much. I wanted to learn from you. Yeah. Because I was, this is what I was going to say. say, I was blown away how much he knew the Bible had only been a Christian since a freshman in college. Here it is five years later. And he just, it was just a fervor that I grew up in church. I became a Christian when I was a little girl, clearly understood the gospel, knew all of that, but there was a fervor in his life and a knowledge of the scripture that blew me away.

So I wanted to learn from him. So I respected him so much. And then when I realized he was interested in me, I was like, whoa, I'm not interested. And I do remember going to one of my friends. And I said, I think Carl really likes me. I think maybe he's like serious about me and that scares me. And my friend, her name is Kathy, and she said, what's wrong with him? You know, he's a great guy. And I was like, but God used that simple phrase.

And I thought he's everything that I would want because he had a heart for the Lord. I wanted to marry someone whose heartbeat for the Lord. he was not ashamed of the gospel, not ashamed. He was so bold. I've never seen a bolder person with the gospel. I always tell people he'll lead a tree to Christ because he's just that available to share the gospel. So I wanted that and he was such a strong leader that that's what drew me to him. So when he, and that's, I guess, when you ask the question, when you know, you know. And I always tell young women, too, make sure your heart beats for the Lord that you are seeking him with all of your heart. heart, that you're just not waiting for someone to drop from the sky, that you're not just putting all your hopes and dreams into a man. Because if you're not happy, if you're not content as a single woman in your own walk with the Lord, you're not going to be happy as a married woman. Because, you know, women think marriage is going to fix them and fix the longings of the heart. Doesn't do that. You know, if God has marriage for you, it's a wonderful gift. But the

years when you're not married, that's a wonderful gift as well. And God did a lot in my life to prepare me for Carl swooping in. And so, yeah, it was just like when he got serious, it was like the Lord changed my heart. It's like, you know what? I respect him. I respected him before I loved him. So, and then when you see in Ephesians, you know how when Paul gives that whole list about what husbands are supposed to do for their wives. And then very succinctly right at the end, he says, and you wives see to it that you respect your husbands.

It's so simple, but I think, whoa, I respected him before. Yeah. Which God still works on me with that, of course. I'm not, but I'm just saying that's deep. The respect for him is so deep. It is. And I wonder what advice you would give to a woman who they fell in love with their husband first. They loved their personality.

They were just attracted to them. They were romantically involved. But say that respect didn't come right away. Or maybe they even struggle with that. Maybe they were just so romantically involved. they kind of saw each other as equals and she realized at some point, oh, yeah, I'm called to submit to this person. We're not just like really good companions. I'm supposed to submit to him. I need him to lead me either. Maybe she doesn't know how to do that or maybe she just doesn't feel that kind of

respect that you very naturally felt toward him. Maybe her husband is not a natural leader or for whatever reason. It could be stuff in her own life and heart. But how do you foster the respect that we're commanded to have when it doesn't come naturally like a feeling for some women. And are you talking about after you're married? You're talking about married women? Yes. I would say that's a good point of clarity. Yes. After you're married or maybe even when you're engaged, when you're realizing, oh yeah, that's the idea like we're supposed to have. Well, first I'll talk, I'll speak to you when you're single because that's an area that you really do need to commit to the Lord. You need to know God's going to God not only calls me to submit to this man, but he calls me to respect him. And then you, in

then it's just like almost like that sound mind principle that you find Paul telling Timothy, you list out, is this, if it's a struggle for a young woman when she's single and she's dating someone to have respect for him, it's not going to go away when she gets married. Like it's one of those things, and it doesn't mean that, you know, sanctification is a process. So we all grow in those areas. But at the same time, if you really don't respect them right now, you need to find out why. And then take that to the Lord so that he can show you. clearly. I heard a pastor say one time, you know, you either cry now or you cry later. And so

sometimes the tears, even if you feel like you're so in love, but you don't respect them, sometimes that can be the thing that God shows you that this is not the person for you. But at the same time, it could be that you have to grow and develop in that realm as well. Now, for a married woman, it's a command of the Lord to respect your husband. I mean, it's something like if Jesus said, love me, you'll obey me. He has my commands and obeys them. He is the one who loves me and he who loves me will be loved by my father and I too will love him and show myself to him. So he shows you more and more about himself as we obey his command. So first of all, it's a command. See to it that you respect your husband. Sometimes if women are struggling with that, I always encourage women,

will list out some things that you do respect about him. It's not like you don't respect anything about him. Something drew you to him. something you admired about him, make a list of those things, and then camp on those, and then the more you camp on those and then you tell him the things you respect about him, you actually talk to him, say, I really love it when you do this. I'm just saying men, just like we, there's so many things that we crave and we want from our husbands, they want respect from us. And being married for so long to my husband, I know how to do. I know how to tell him things that are important to me, even sometimes, and I'm talking about

things in his life that are important to me, even sometimes if I'm mad at him and don't want to tell him, tell him anyway, because there are things that are saying. So it's something you have to cultivate. Now, along with that in Titus, when the scripture says that one of the things older women are to teach the young women are to love their husbands and, of course, submit, the assumption there is something that needs to be taught, that we don't necessarily, We have a natural love, of course. I mean, we have an instinctive love for our children. We have. We fell in love and we love our husbands. But it's not a biblical love. What we have to be taught is biblical love. Biblical respect. Biblical, you know, all that whole list in there. And so, and it's something that has to be taught. And so that's the other thing. Sometimes I would say, find an older woman who's learned that lesson and ask her some of those things. Quick pause to tell you about our first sponsor for the day. And that is seven weeks coffee. Seven weeks coffee has raised over $800,000 for pro-life pregnancy centers across the country. Just amazing. 10% of every sale of their coffee goes to these pro-life pregnancy centers that are truly saving lives, serving moms and dads in crisis pregnancy situations. Seven weeks coffee not only provides amazing, high quality, clean, mold-free, pesticide-free, great-tasting coffee. They also honor their mission to be a godly pro-life company by putting their money where their heart is.

It's called seven weeks coffee because at the seven weeks gestation, that little baby, that image bearer of God is the size of a coffee being. And yet he or she is just as valuable as you and I are. And so that is why they are on a mission to fund the pro-life movement and pregnancy organizations across the country. Right now when you subscribe to seven weeks coffee, so you'll get a box of coffee to your front door every month, you get a free two pack of their new single serve brew bags to take your coffee wherever life takes you. Go to seven weeks coffee.com code alley. You'll get an extra 10% off that seven weeks coffee.com code alley. I'm wondering if there's anyone out there that say, okay, but what does it actually mean to respect? Because we kind of mean different things when we're

talking about dating versus marriage and respect. Say you're talking about just the feeling of their respect, kind of like a reverence in awe for, wow, that person's a good leader. And as they're on stage leading people to Christ, I just feel this respect. I want to learn from him. That's kind of what you felt about, Carl. But when you're dating, it's not the same kind of committed submission that a wife would have to her husband. So if a woman while she's dating a man, she feels that she doesn't respect him, it could be, and you can tell me what you think about this, A, that as you said, God is showing her, well, this is not really a man that is commanding your respect because he doesn't have this relationship with the Lord. He's not passionate about the

gospel. And God is indicating to you that this is not a man that you want to follow. Or it could mean that maybe she's got some internalized feminism or maybe she's just got some sin there that she's like you know I'm a strong independent woman I he does have all of these things he is a godly man but I don't like the idea of submission at all so that's kind of what you're saying that's what you need to distinguish when you're married if you don't have that respect for the person is it him or is it you versus when you're married you are called no matter what you feel in the moment that's right to submit unless it's sin that's right that's right that's right that's right that's right that's right And you were saying something that in that moment of when you're dating or when you're seeing someone.

Sometimes you have to ask yourself the question, is this a man I can follow? And then to your point, you have to think, is this an issue with me or is this an issue with him? Or is it an issue that I don't really like what the scripture says? Because a lot of women, they don't really like what the scripture says. So then they want to change it to fit them. speaking for me personally, as I've talked about how I respected Carl first, one of the things I thought, I could follow him. That was the thing. And even though I was young and didn't understand nearly what I understand now, but I understood this is someone I want to follow. And I knew instinctively

because I'm stubborn and I'm opinionated. I knew I needed someone who was stronger than that, who was stronger than I was about those, or at least instinctively I knew that. I couldn't say at that time, I said, oh, I need someone stronger than me. But it was clear that, you know, he had a boldness I wanted. He had a, you know, clarity and a razor sharp focus that brought me so much clarity even before I loved him.

So I don't know if that helps. Yeah. And let's hang out on that word submission. since, I mean, as someone who has been in women's ministry for a long time, and probably, obviously, as far back as the church was founded, Christians were having difficulty with this. Actually, you could probably go back to creation, that that's part of the curse, that there is some strife between the husband and wife. But obviously, there was a reason that got through Paul told the church in Ephesus, hey, wives and the church in Colossi, too. That's right. You need to submit to your husbands. You need to

respect your husbands and he has a command for husbands to love their wives in a sacrificial way as Christ love the church, which is a very high and difficult command and big burden to bear. But we focus on that one word submission and we feel or some women feel and maybe all in our flesh have felt at some point that that is oppression. Well, I feel like you're belittling me. I feel like you're telling me that I couldn't lead or I don't have capabilities. So what does that Ephesians five word submission submit to our husbands? as we submit to the Lord. What does that really mean for the wife? You know, it's interesting that when you were talking to how women often say, I don't feel this, I don't feel that. There's so much

emphasis on how they feel about what God's word says rather than, hey, I just want to obey the Lord. I want to obey him. Now, as you were talking about those passages, it came to my mind first Peter Chapter 3, of course, because that's huge when you think about this whole subject of submission, because that was written at a time when these women were coming to faith in Christ, their husbands, maybe not, maybe they come to faith, but they're still disobedient to the word. And it's like, it's a natural thing of like, well, I'm a Christian now. Do I still, do I need to submit to him? And when you see that in connection with the other sister passages that you just talked about,

you see that the issue there is how Peter takes that. And he says, no, you still need to submit. I'm paraphrasing. But he's saying because you're living with this man. This is the paraphrase, but you're living with this man. And as he observes your chase and respectful behavior, he is going to be one without a word by the behavior of the wife. Now, it doesn't mean when he says without a word that she doesn't talk. But the emphasis there is that she's not just preaching to him.

him all the time. Hey, read this. Hey, come, you know, listen to this sermon. Do this. She's not doing that. She is living in a way that shows him respect, that she is loving him the way God says to do it. And then God uses that because he lives with her. Then when you continue in that passage, you see, the very next part, he talks about the holy women of old. And he specifically holds up Sarah as an example. Now, he talks about the other women as well, but he specifically talks about Sarah. and how she respected, submitted to her husband, even calling him Lord. And, of course, that's just a term of respect. We know that.

But, and she did what was right, the scripture says, without being frightened by any fear. Now, so that should make any woman who wants to obey the Lord say, I need to know Sarah's life. And some of these other women, you study Sarah's life. I mean, Abraham, she's married to him. And he is the father of the faithful. him he's, you know, and he had a trajectory always going toward the Lord, but he had some times in his life where I just say, sometimes I'll tease my husband and say, you throw me in the harem again. Yeah. Just, you know, and because he threw her in the harem twice. Yeah. And she wasn't afraid.

So when he says, not being frightened by any fear, she had every reason to fear. But the scripture says she put her hope in God. But she still, as you study her life, she was an opinionated woman, but she submitted to her husband, times when she shouldn't, she knew when to speak up. Then God tells Abraham, you listen to your wife. You know, just studying her life gives so much clarity about those questions about submission, not being a dormant, not just him telling you what to do, when to speak, when not to speak, when God's going to protect you, even if his leadership might not be the best in the moment, letting him fail. Now, I say let, I don't mean letting, we let them do things. But, you know, And saying, I told you so.

Do this. Exactly. And trying to lead ourselves. That's right. Yeah. It's like getting out of the way and just letting the Lord. And that comes down to a woman respecting the God who is over her rather than just this man. And that he's going to protect and take care of you as you obey him.

As you said, not sin issues, but as you obey him, then he will take care of not only you, but he'll take care of the marriage. He'll take care of your husband. He will guide him. And then you're on your knees praying for him that he would lead well, that he would make good, godly decisions, that he would have your best interests at heart. They would have the children's best interest at heart because sometimes that's one of the things, too, that young women, and I know for me you get in the way of them with their children, with your children. It's like, he says this and you're like, no. And, you know, there's all kinds of ways. Yes.

Yeah. But it's a real test of us. And I think that's true. even in the church, you know, of women's ministry in the church, women so often, and I'm a woman so I can say this, we think we know better. Yeah. We think we know better than the men. We think we know better than our pastors.

We think we know better than our elders. We think we know better than our husbands. We think we know better. And sometimes we do. I mean, they need to listen to us. So I'm not discounting that. But God has established them to give leadership. And they need more than anything.

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Adelnaturalcosmetics.com code Alley. Sometimes we feel, and I don't know if this is just a female thing, but certainly in the context of being a wife wanting to follow her husband, we think that we can out Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit. Like actually, if I tell him to do this, it would be better than if the Holy Spirit told him to do it because I speak so clearly. And I can do it right now. I can think about a time when I was like, okay, you know what, it's going to be a tough conversation, but I'm going to say that this has really been bothering me and that I really want this to change. And I had this monologue that I was going to repair.

And then something, I would say the Holy Spirit, I was just like exercising one day stopped me and was like, I have not prayed that the Lord would help me with this. I haven't prayed that the Lord would convict over this if this is something that needs to be convicted about for him. Or maybe it's me that needs to be convicted. But I haven't prayed. And I will say, and I'm not saying that this is how it goes immediately every time. But very quickly, I saw some answers to that prayer without me saying anything. And that is certainly not to be a story of, oh, look at Allie's righteousness.

Of course, of course. That is like one of probably many times that I've gotten it wrong. But I can remember that distinct moment of holding my tongue and saying, let me pray about this first. And maybe if the Lord compels me and convicts me to say something, then maybe it is time. but I never did. I never did. And I saw answers to that prayer. And man, I've probably done the opposite and gotten that wrong many, many times. But so much better that way, actually, because there was no fight, there's no argument, there was no conflict. There was no questioning of, well, do you, is this kind of, does it feel like disrespect and all of that stuff? That's the

benefit of waiting on the Lord to do something is that it actually resolves conflict before it starts. And it builds your strength muscle. It builds your spiritual muscle to trust God the next time as well. And another thing that, as you're saying that is another thing that I try to help young women and I try to practice in my own life is like only talk about the things that are like, don't nag him about everything. You know, because then we're just background noise. But then if it's like, this is really important to me and I need you. I'm your helper. And I really need you to hear me on this. But if. But if you're, If I'm not doing that about everything, his ears to hear. And then he respects me and, you know, wants to hear what I have to say. And for me, personally, I always say, and you don't have to listen, you know, this is just what I think. And I think you would do well to listen to me on this. But I trust you and God's leading in your life. And that's, again, a spiritual muscle you have to build with time as part of that sanctification. I love what you said that it comes down to really trusting God, not just trusting, your husband because the question I'm sure you've gotten a lot as being a pastor's wife is, well,

what if my husband does this? Or what if he doesn't do this? Or what if he's like this? I can't possibly respect that or submit to that or follow that. But what you're saying, which is very convicting for all of us, is that it's really not about, mostly about your husband and what he's doing on a day-to-day basis. It's really about whether or not you trust God. That's right. And the example of Abraham is a perfect one because he had his issues. He did. He did. He did. And then Sarah, and I love that passage, though, just to reiterate how it says, she hoped in God, she was not frightened by any fear. Think about her. If we just take a step back and think, she's in a harem. She could be mistreated, you know, but God didn't let him touch her.

You know, it's just like, I mean, God took care of her and then dealt with Abraham. Yeah. You know, so I'm just saying it's like there's so many times in decisions over the years, it's like, I am frightened by a lot of fears. and the fears sometimes it might be in leadership or the way what my husband's deciding or which direction he's going. But if my hope is in God, then I trust the authority that he's placed over me. And there's nothing wrong with calling our husbands our authority. I know women don't like that. But I'm just saying every place there's, you know, my husband always says, you know, if there's two heads,

it's a monster. If there's no head, it's dead. So, you know, anyway. No, that's a really good. That's a really good picture. I mean, if there's two, leaders, it's chaos. I mean, it's even like a company, whenever I see, oh, this company is transitioning to have co-CEOs. I'm like, it's not going to last long. Exactly. It's just not, but even more so in a family, because you've got so many intimate things that you are dealing with and deciding and all of that. So you're absolutely right. I'm curious about your life as a pastor's wife. So after y'all got married, he was already in the ministry, but when did he become a pastor? Well, when we first got married, we're still in staff with Crusade, we went to Duke University

and worked there for five years with Campus Crusade, and our children began to be born in Durham. We have five children. And then during those five years, he just really sensed he wanted to go to seminary and be a pastor. And so he did go to seminary. So we were there, Duke five years, and then we moved and came to Dallas. and he went to Dallas DTS, which, sad to say again. Another institution. And he, yes, it's sad.

It makes me sad. It makes him sad. Yes. And he used to like, totally know how that feels. Yeah, it's, it's, yeah. And he gets on the phone. He's like, he's not, he's not passive. Yeah.

It's not going down without a fight. No, that's right. That's right. But he went there and so we were in Dallas for five years. And then while we were in Dallas, he's not. He served as pastor of evangelism at Lake Point Church in Rockwall. And in fact, he was one of the elders there. The first time they had elders that were moving towards an elder form of government.

And he was one of the elders there with Steve Stroop, who was the former pastor there. And so he was there, and it was while there that, you know, he was beginning to have his resumes to be a pastor. And he could have. There was a church in Richardson that was seeking him. this church in Beaufort sought him and it was just through those steps we went to Beaufort. It was made it back to North Carolina. So what has it been like being a pastor's wife? I guess it looks different for different kinds of people and the different giftings that God gives someone. But you have taken on a role of teaching women and discipleship for women. So how did that come about?

Well, it came about when we first got to Beaufort. It was a small church, didn't have a building. and I guess because of a new pastor, some of the women who had been doing things were kind of like resigning. You know, they were having, I don't know what all they had at that point, but they wanted me to teach a Bible study. I had four little children at that time, and I did. I was a trained leader with precept. And so I did one Bible study in the evenings, but it was like halfway through that Bible study. I realized this is not the right season for me to be. leaving my home at night. And so I finished it. It's hard. It's hard. Yes. And I finished it,

completed it, but then I thought I'm not, I'm not going to do this. Yeah. But I wanted to use my gifts in the body. So I was teaching children's Sunday school classes. And by the way, I will say this, teaching children's Sunday school classes is how I learned the Bible even more because I took it seriously. Yeah. And I learned so much teaching children's Sunday school classes. But lay that aside, that's what I was doing. We had a lot of young families coming to the church. It was growing by conversion. And then some of the younger families, they, my children were young, you know, like maybe 12 and under, Jameson was not born yet.

He's my baby. He wasn't born yet. But some of them were asking me if I would teach a mothering Bible. So just share what you're doing, you know. So I said, okay. I could do that. It's my season of life. And so then I started, I did it in my home. And it was like, I opened it up. And it was just because, again, we didn't have a building. But it just exploded in the sense that, whoa. I mean, women were sitting around on the stairs. It was just like a need. And all I was doing was typing up. In fact, some of the early women who are still in our church, they say, I still have the handouts, you know, because I would hand them. I would write it and just hand them what I was teaching. And anyway. And so then I started doing that. But I did it in my home and my children, even my daughter and my son, they would like do refreshments. And then after Jameson was born, they would watch him once they welcomed all the ladies.

Then they would watch him up in the upstairs during his nap time. And they would be quiet and all that stuff while I taught that Bible study. So that's how that started. Yeah. And because that was, God honored that. Then when we got our building, my husband said, you need to teach that at the church because it's more centrally low. located and more women could come. And then he said, now after a while, see, he just made me do everything. And I submitted. Then he said, he said, I want you to do that. He said, I want you to think about doing that as a Friday night, Saturday thing. So even more women could come because this is so needed. Because he saw how, you know, he saw what's going. Because I didn't just talk about how to mother children. I went back to Genesis.

Yeah. I talked about, you know, the foundations that the foundations are gone. you have. Exactly. And everything is there. So I started there. And then I remember doing that the first time. It was a Friday night and a Saturday, a conference format. And I remember thinking, okay, this is recorded.

I don't have to do this anymore. Yeah. You know, no people can just get it. But that's how it started. Yeah. And then from that, it was like we started having twice a month because I, at my stage of life, I didn't want to do it every week. Yeah.

what it is. It just organically happened the way it is. But I also understand from scripture that women's ministry in the church should be under the authority of the church, under the authority of pastors and elders, not just women off doing their own thing and kind of going rogue and deciding they're going to do what they want to do and they don't even, you know, a pastor, a shepherd is called to guard the flock. They're supposed to protect the flock. So it matters what the women are teaching other women. It matters what material they're using. It matters what speakers, where they're going and what they're doing and they care about that to give oversight to it, not in a controlling way, but just the way a pastor has a heart. He's not a hireling. He cares for the sheep. And so he even cares

about women's ministry. So if we understand our role in the home, it's like that's a microcosm of what women's role should be in the church, a helper, a being committed to the overall mission, and vision of the church and being a part of that and seeing how we as women can help the church as a whole and help the leadership do what they need to do. Yes, I love that so much. And I love how much your husband was like, yes, this is great and encouraged it and wanted more of it. Next sponsor is Freedom Project Academy. Most schools, we know, unfortunately, are indoctrinating kids with progressive values.

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top-notch education, really being told how to think, to critically think, to problem-solve, and they're just being educated through the lens of what is actually right and wrong and what is true about America. So this is a great way to bolster what your kids are already learning from you and you get to keep them at home even more. Go to freedomfor-school.com, say 15 percent all courses when you use code alley 15. That's freedom for school.com code alley 15. When you were teaching about specifically about motherhood, family discipleship, I know that you talked about, you know, teaching through the whole Bible, which I totally agree. All of it is relevant to motherhood and homemaking and being a wife and mom.

What specifically were you teaching moms in that stage of life about how to raise their kids in the Lord? I know that's a big question, but just some. Tips because we've got a lot of young moms here trying to figure that out. What would you say? Well, the things I covered in that Bible study, which I still do, because I still teach it periodically at my church, because we have a whole new generation. As long as I've been in ministry and as old as I am, it's like, whoa, we've got all these 20s and 30s now that weren't here before. And I need to keep it because God's word, you have to keep teaching it. Yeah. But anyway, I started out kind of like, I started out with like a culture of confusion. Now, when I started to start out, this. It was like back in the 90s, but it was like our world's like falling apart. And even in the church, there's like not that many, I don't know, you're trying to look for good role models or even people who are willing to mentor you or that you could learn from. So I had a burden for that that I remember even as a young mom, and this is when we lived in Texas, I remember like wanting an old, I wanted the older woman of Titus in my life.

Now, our church was great, but there wasn't, I just remember telling the Lord, I want to be that kind of woman. I want to make decisions now and do what I can now to be this woman who can give back to my daughter, my daughters-in-law, to the young women who are coming up behind me and who will be the person that will give them truth from scripture, not just what they want to hear, and pat him on the back and say, but to tell them what they need to hear, and of course, pat them on the back when that's warranted. But so I talked about a culture of confusion. And then the, and I talked about God's word is the same yesterday, today, and forever. And I laid the foundation from Genesis in that first session in terms of, you know, when God created a woman, he created her with the nurturing heart. And not everybody's going to be a mom. We know that.

But it's still in our DNA. Little girls, mother babies. Yeah. Single women, think about how many it is women who are teachers in the schools. Yeah. It's because we nurture. We mother. It's so as part of our DNA, even if we never get married and never have children. That's who we are. And all little children look up to women as mothers. Yeah. Even if they're not biological mothers or adopt. They automatically feel safer toward the woman. They gravitate toward the woman. That's right. That's right. That's right. And so I wanted to build the foundation from that from Genesis and even build from there like this is God's good design. When man and woman sinned, it marred it, but God didn't give up on them. He set out to redeem it. It wasn't like, okay, she failed. I'm done with her. He failed. I'm done with him. It's over. It's like, no, he set out to redeem them. Even at the end of

chapter three, after they've sinned, when Adam looks at his wife and he calls her the mother of all the living, that's after sin. That's after the curse has been issued. That's when you know there's going to be struggles, but it's like, no, you're still going to be a mother. And you're the mother of all the living. So there's a redemption. And of course, we also know from Genesis chapter three, that's when we see the foreshadowing of Christ. You know, and we see two that God clothed them. And then we also know, because we know that Christ is going to come through a woman. Talk about redemption. Right. You know, it's just, it's so important. So I lay. that foundation in the first session. And then the next session, I deal with the real problems of

motherhood and it's not the children. That's just kind of what I called it. And I talk about our sin nature that when, you know, when Carl and I got married, we're two sinners and we're getting married. And then we gave birth to five sinners. So you got seven sinners in a home. There's going to naturally be conflict. We think, you know, if we just do everything right, it's just going to be smooth sailing. We see all the social media photos of everybody being so wonderful. But if you have a sin nature, it's going to rock the boat. So I talk about dealing with sin. I also like share the gospel in that session for women who think they're believers, but they're not.

And then I talk about the role of the Holy Spirit that he lives in us. And this is his role. This is what he comes to do in our lives and how that relates specifically to mothering. And then I talk about, I go into. replacement, I call it replacement thinking, but it's from Colossians chapter three. It's from Ephesians. We let the word of Christ richly dwell within you. Walk in the spirit. As Ephesian says, you look at those sister passages and he always says, put this off, put this on. He doesn't just empty us out. He wants us to replace. So I talk about that and specifically how that relates to being a

mom in the home. And how do we make theology come alive in our homes? Because if we can live it out in the home, you know, that's where the rubber meets. a road. You and I can be like, just so sweet to each other, but it's how am I in my home. Yeah. You know, and so I teach the practical side of that. Then I go through some things like babies and toddlers, and, you know, I go through each stage of just things that helped me. It's not like I'm arriving at this, like I've arrived and I'm an expert, but these are the things, this is what I'm holding on to for deal life. In fact, when I was young in my 30s writing that material. I told the women, the jury's not out. Yeah. I mean, you're still in that. Yes. I said, but this is what I'm

holding on to for dear life. Yeah. And what were some of those things for the baby and toddler stage? Oh, well, one is the big, I always call it the R word, relax. Yeah. Always just say it's okay to have a you know, I talk about the fact that God doesn't give in his word. Now, when you have a newborn, you got to do it just like this. Yeah. Because he gives us a mothering instinct. And you know, Like, because I remember for me, when I was having my babies, there's so many opinions like, oh, whether or not you should carry them and wear a sling and I did carry, you know, oh, whether or not you should, they should be sleeping in a separate room or, you know, all these rules. And it's like, but God doesn't address that. You know, Mary and Joseph had Jesus in a stable. And then it laid him in a manger. And, you know, then you think about the whole global, the whole world about how women have mothers. their babies. God gives us an instinct, a natural God-given instinct, but has to be brought under the control of the Holy Spirit. So I always say things like, if it's not a thus say if the Lord issue, you're your child's best mom. You can decide if you want to carry them in a sling, or if you read,

and I'm saying that, because I carry Jameson in a sling. Yeah. You can decide those things. You can research things to see what's best for your family. That's a big, part of what I did in that and even something that helped me when I had my first baby because I was so like back then it was like they need to be in a separate room or at least this is what I was hearing. You don't need to have them in your room. You need to train them to soothe themselves, all this stuff. And I remember one time I was so stressed over that and I was talking to my grandmother. And I just said, I just, you know, I'm just, I want him in my room. And she said, Audrey, we didn't have a separate room. that was like life changing for me.

It was just as this young, 22-year-old woman. It was like, yeah. You didn't have a separate room. I immediately moved to him in my room. It's fine. But I'm saying that was just something and that you learn with time

and an older woman helping me with that. It's like, and she would say, you just do with your God-given instincts and what you know of the Bible and you're always going to be growing and learning. But trust yourself, because God trusts you with that baby. He gave you that baby and he's going to use you in the process.

Yeah. That's something, I mean, certainly the jury is still out on me because my guys are 5, 3, and 1. And but by the time you have number 3, you have already learned a lot. That's right. Even if it has only been five or six years total that you've been a mom, you already, or at least for me, I can't speak for everyone. but you've learned to let go of all of the anxieties that you had as a first time mom. That's right. First of all, I don't have the energy and capacity to worry about all of the things that I worried about as a first time mom.

But also, you build confidence. You're like, I can keep a child alive. They're going to be okay. Like having the sniffles is not a life or death situation where I have to freak out about that. They're going to be okay. I know how to do this. Also, when you've gone through hard times, this is true about life in general. You can apply it to so many things, but certainly motherhood, okay, I went through that really hard time where all of my kids were really sick and it was really stressful and we were moving and whatever.

And the next time you meet a trial, you're like, okay, well, this is not as hard as that. And I got through that. I can survive this too. That's right. And there's a lot of benefit even to listening to friends who are just like a couple years ahead of me. And I also realize I have friends who are first time moms who are that they're telling me all their anxieties and concerns. And I'm like, I totally get it. I felt that, but you're going to be totally fine.

You're going to be fine. And that's not dismissive. Sometimes you just need to hear that. That's right. I mean, it's really important. And you don't have to be a perfect, perfect mom. No. There's no such thing.

Or be completely done with motherhood to lend wisdom to people who need it. Right. I love that. And I love the fact of telling them you're going to be fine. I always talk about First Kings three when, you know, Solomon goes to the Lord. and he says, I don't know how to lead these people. You know, he says, there's too many for me. I need wisdom, you know, because, and that's what he says.

He's, I don't know how to go in or come out. This is too big for me. There's too many people. And that becomes like a prayer that's a wonderful prayer for a mother, not like, oh, am I going to have the best, like, crib? Am I going to have the best, whatever it is, the best, you know, food? It's just like, Lord, I don't know what I'm doing. Yeah.

This is too big for me. I don't know how to go in or go. out myself. I need your wisdom. And then if a mom will stay on her knees, and I literally mean that, I'm not using that as a phrase. I always tell moms, eat the carpet. That's what I always call it. Sometimes with my kids, if it was something, I don't know, homeschooling them at different times or whatever. Sometimes they don't really, they didn't know when I was eating the carpet, but there were things that were burdening me that I, but what I mean is just be, be humble before the Lord and cry out to him for his help because, you know, scripture says, draw near to God. He will draw near to

you. God is attracted to our neediness, you know, that we need him. And he will help us. What nation has a God so near that he will respond to us when we call out to him. And we, if we call out to him, he will come to our aid, even in the simplest things of, I don't know what to do in this moment. Should I ground this child? Should I spank them? I know. That's a, tricky word to say, well, should I, should I, whatever it is, it's like, Lord, I need your help. I need you to help me. Do we not think God will come to our aid and help us even in this task of mothering? You know, Mary had to think that, and she's raising the perfect child. Yeah. You know, she had to rely in that same way. But I think sometimes that's the thing I always want to encourage moms in the most.

And I need it myself, even as I'm parenting, still the parent of, I'm not parenting adult children, but I have adult children of like, Lord, I need your help. When to, I don't want to be intrusive in their lives. I want to, I want to help them. I need your help even to be involved in that way. Just like I did when I was raising them. I need your help. Yeah. Gosh, I think that this kind of discipleship and mentorship is so needed within the church. There are a lot of women's ministries. And, you know, all of them are different. And I obviously don't know every women's ministry that exists, but it does seem like there is a deficit of this kind of teaching, specifically about motherhood today. And just a lot of the conferences and the books that are

targeting women are really more about like self-esteem. And they're really more about like the self. And I'm not saying that we should never talk about our problems with anxiety or self-loathing and all of that. The gospel does speak to all of those things. But just like practical guidance. on motherhood and child raising, I don't know if I see a lot of local churches, and I've been to a lot of them, like having systems in place to make sure that kind of mentorship is happening. And we need it just as much as, you know, any Christian generation has ever needed that. And maybe it's, you know, a millennial problem. Maybe it's a baby boomer problem. Maybe it's just a local church problem. It's just the same problem? Yeah. I'm not sure what it is. But I just, I do see a need

for that. So if someone is listening or watching it and they're like, okay, I want something like this at my church. I want to connect with the grandmothers and young moms, the older women and the younger woman, and I want something like this. I want a Bible study like this. Like what would you recommend? Well, you know, again, when I mentioned earlier that it kind of came about organically in our church. And what I mean by that is I understood and I studied myself personally the book of Titus. Now, when I was growing up, I never heard it taught. I never heard it taught. Now, maybe it was, and I just didn't have any interest to hear.

I don't know. But I do remember as a very young mom, we were in our church, in church in North Carolina, and I'd never heard of John MacArthur prior to this. Never heard of him. But they brought in a video series that he did. And I remember I was a young mom. I was like in my early 20s. And I was like mesmerized by the home, what he was teaching on the home.

And I just was so hungry. I was like soaking it up. Well, then when the, but what I learned is a lot of the women in the church got mad about that series. They got angry. They didn't like what he was saying. And the pastor apologized. And they didn't show any more of that series. And I'm not, again, I'm not trying to throw shade on that.

I'm just, that's just what happened. Not John McCarthy. No, it was John McCarthy. He did apologize. No, no, no. No, what I'm saying, it was a series by John McCarthy. Oh, got it. We were showing this.

That's okay. I'm sure everyone else got it. I just wanted to make church. I was like, wow, I don't think I would have expected John McArthur to apologize. It was a series. Yeah, it was a series of pastor of our church. I apologize for showing it. Yeah.

But that was like, I want to know this book. And so I began to study it and just realize. And here's the thing. And this is what I would say, you know, just in general in terms of women's ministry in the church. When, you know, Titus is a pastoral epistle, just like first and second Timothy. Paul is writing how the church should function. And in those epistles, he covers every single group in the church, every single one. Now, Titus is great because it's very succinct.

It's a very short book. It's only three chapters. First chapter deals with leadership in the church, qualified leadership, and why they're supposed to do what they do. Second chapter, the first half of it deals with groups in the church. And then it goes on, talks about the appearing of our great God and Savior. This is why we do what we do. And then to remember who we were before we came to Christ, that's the third chapter. But in that second chapter, he saw him out what's supposed to happen with groups in the church.

And in that, you see the older women and younger women are included in that in terms of what, really, it's like this is women's ministry. Now, that does not mean. A lot of women think, and what I've faced over the years when people think, oh, you just teach Titus two, three, to five all the time? No, well, I could teach it all the time because I could teach to love your husbands and I could look at Sarah. I could look at Rebecca. I could look at Ruth. I could look at Esther, I could look at tons of passages and teach from that lens.

But no, it's not just teaching that list, but it's teaching the Bible through that lens. You know, that you're helping women learn how to take that theology that they're learning from books of the Bible and putting feet to it. For example, this just, you know, I teach a women's Sunday school class. A, we call them adult, you know, they're called it adult Bible fellowships now. And my husband is teaching the gospel of Mark right now. And I just told our women, I want to follow along with the gospel of Mark. We're going to teach it, follow behind him.

And one of the women in the class said, oh, I'm so excited for this because I love all of the theology and everything we're learning. But now it's like we'll know how to practically live it out as women. That's kind of like taking my role as a woman, kind of like what a woman does. in the home, the father like says, this isn't this, and the woman helps flesh it out. The mom helps, well, this is how we do this. And this, let's take what your dad just said. And let's, you know, it's the way you work as a team. And so it's that same type of thing with, if, if women understand what women are to do in the church, that has, it's like that's the perspective. That's the overview. Then this connecting happens out of that. For example, too, I teach, we call it woman's life at our

church. And it's not every single week. We have focus time in the fall, focus time in the spring. And I just, you know, I mean, I teach all kinds of things. I just did a series called Seasons of a woman's Life. But I taught the whole book of Song of Solomon last year. And I taught that, but I taught it as a woman would teach it. And there's marriage. In there's courtship. In there's dating. And there's like you're fighting in your marriage and then how they work it out and all those kinds of things. So to answer that question, it's like understanding the big picture and then teaching from that lens. You know, it's kind of like, you know, even pastors, they understand Genesis to Revelation. They know the big story.

But then when they teach the gospel of Mark or they teach Malachi, it's through the lens of the whole Bible, God's story. If that makes sense. Totally makes sense. Thank you so much. That's so helpful. I am so grateful for you. This is such a fun conversation. I feel like I could talk to you for hours.

If people want to hear more from you, they can listen to your podcast. That's right. Rare but real, right? That's right. And it's wherever people listen. That's right. It's everywhere. Awesome.

Well, I know people are going to be flocking to that because you are just so easy to listen to and so encouraging. Thank you so much for taking the time to come on. Thank you. All right. As we close out, I just want to remind you to subscribe to Blaze TV. Go to Blaze TV. Go to Blaze TV. You will get a discount on your subscription to Blaze TV.

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