Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 1196 | Where the Jordan Peterson vs. Atheists 'Jubilee' Debate Went Wrong

Episode Date: May 28, 2025

Today, we're going over the recent "Jubilee" debate between Jordan Peterson and 20 atheists. We go over Peterson's arguments and offer some biblical answers to the atheists' arguments. We go over some of Peterson's great answers and give a grounded, Christian response to his not-so-great responses. But why would "Jubilee" initially title the video "1 Christian vs 20 Atheists," only to change it to "Jordan Peterson vs 20 Atheists" later? And was this really a good debate for Jordan Peterson? Share the Arrows 2025 is on October 11 in Dallas, Texas! Go to ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠sharethearrows.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ for tickets now! Buy Allie's new book, "Toxic Empathy: How Progressives Exploit Christian Compassion": ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://a.co/d/4COtBxy⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ --- Timecodes: (01:45) Jordan Peterson vs. 20 Atheists (06:57) Jordan Peterson’s claims (09:41) Claim 1: Atheists don’t know what they’re rejecting (36:07) Claim 2: Morality & purpose can’t be found in science (47:51) Claim 3: Everyone worships something (57:55) Claim 4: Atheists accept Christian morals but deny its foundation --- Today's Sponsors: Interior Delights — Interior Delights takes the guesswork out of decorating with new collections every season to help you style your home. Visit InteriorDelights.net/Allie and use code ALLIE for 10% off your first purchase. Good Ranchers — Go to ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠GoodRanchers.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and subscribe to any of their boxes (but preferably the Allie Beth Stuckey Box) to get free Waygu burgers, hot dogs, bacon, or chicken wings in every box for life. Plus, you’ll get $40 off when you use code ALLIE at checkout. A Faith Under Siege — Watch the explosive new film "A Faith Under Siege: Russia's Hidden War on Ukraine Christians," detailing the persecution of believers under Russia's expanding occupation. Go to faithundersiege.com to watch today. --- Related Episodes: Ep 1174 | The Best Argument Against Jesus’ Resurrection — and How to Respond | Guest: Dr. Sean McDowell https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/ep-1174-the-best-argument-against-jesus-resurrection/id1359249098?i=1000703924611 Ep 1138 | Sharing the Gospel with Joe Rogan | Guest: Wes Huff https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/ep-1138-sharing-the-gospel-with-joe-rogan-guest-wes-huff/id1359249098?i=1000691204214 Ep 679 | Busting Atheism’s Biggest Myths | Guest: Dr. Neil Shenvi https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/ep-679-busting-atheisms-biggest-myths-guest-dr-neil-shenvi/id1359249098?i=1000579610722 Ep 979 | Atheist Richard Dawkins Begs Christianity to Come Back https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/ep-979-atheist-richard-dawkins-begs-christianity-to/id1359249098?i=1000651348581 --- Buy Allie's book, You're Not Enough (& That's Okay): Escaping the Toxic Culture of Self-Love: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://alliebethstuckey.com/book⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Relatable merchandise – use promo code 'ALLIE10' for a discount: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://shop.blazemedia.com/collections/allie-stuckey

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That's fellowship homelones.com slash alley, term supply, see site for details, fellowship home loans, mortgage lending by the book, nationwide mortgage bankers, DBA Fellowship Home Loans, equal housing lender, NMLS, number 819-382. Jordan Peterson debated 20 atheists. We'll go through some of his answers today, and I will give you what I would say as a Christian to some of these atheists claims. This episode is brought to you by our friends at Good Ranchers. Go to Good Ranchers.com. Use code Allie. Check out that's good ranchers.com code Alley. Hey guys, welcome to relatable. Happy Wednesday. Hope everyone is having a wonderful week so far. All right, today we are. talking about Jordan Peterson's recent debate on Jubilee. That's a YouTube channel. They have a series called Surrounded, where they have one person who holds one position, and then 20 to 25 people

surrounding that person in a semicircle who hold the opposing position. So, for example, they've done Ben Shapiro versus 25 Kamala Harris voters, one progressive versus 20 conservatives, Dr. Mike, I don't know who that is, versus 20 anti-vaxxers, one LGBTQ activist versus 25 conservatives. So that's the kind of thing they do. They've done Charlie Kirk versus like 20 woke students, which was just a piece of cake for Charlie because that's basically what he travels around the country doing. And that has like 28 million views. So these are very, very popular debates.

A lot of people watch them. They're extremely clippable, and so you see the clip circulating social media. And the most recent debate is Jordan Peterson versus 20 atheists. Is it 20 or 25 atheists? A lot of atheists. And at first, the YouTube video said one Christian versus 25 atheists. And then they changed that very quickly because Jordan Peterson does not actually publicly identify as a Christian in this debate.

says that. That's not just me trying to determine what his faith is. He actually says he doesn't identify as a Christian. And we see that throughout the debate. There are a lot of clips circulating and a lot of people criticizing Jordan Peterson for his answers to these theological apologetics questions and challenges that are being lodged at him from this variety of atheists. And so I wanted to go through some of the claims that are being made by these atheists and what I would say to them as a Christian. And not just what I would say to them, the opposing atheist, but also what I would say to you. Because I get so many questions from you about a variety of things, but specifically about theology, what do I say to this? How do I answer this question? And so,

I will go through, we'll play some clips, go through some of the things being said, what I really agree, agree on with Jordan Peterson, the things that I disagree on and would have answered differently. And I will reference scripture in some of these. And I know that a lot of you out there will be like, well, atheists don't believe in the Bible. And so you can't say that. And I will explain why I reference scripture in some of my answers, but also know that I am communicating to you, my Christian audience, people who believe in God's word as inerrant, as infallible, as authoritative, because I also want you to understand why we believe, what we believe, and how we contend with these arguments. Now, I am not an apologist by trade. There are a lot of people out there

who are much better versed in apologetics than I am. But I do. know my Bible, not perfectly. And again, a lot of people are superior in that realm to me. They've just been around longer. They've been studying longer than I have. But I have been gifted by my parents, by my upbringing with a lot of evangelical, theological, and apologetics training. And I like to think about these things. And I'm very thankful for the wisdom that I have gleaned from professional apologists and theologians and scholars who are much, much smarter than I am. And they have given us a huge gift in the books that they've written and the wisdom that they share. And I've been able to glean from that.

So I hope to be able to share some of that clarity with you today in a way that's edifying. Okay, so let's go through some of these clips. And we can't go through all of them. This is like an hour and a half debate. And so if you want all of the context for every single question and every single answer, then you can go and you can watch that. I'm not trying to de-contextualize or misrepresent anyone. I'm not trying to slam Jordan Peterson on this, as I said.

And as I will say, there are some things that he answered that I thought were really good that I would affirm and say as well. And then there were other things that I'm like, that is not at all the Christian perspective. and I'm kind of confused about what exactly is going on here. So within this debate, there are four claims that are made by the one opposing person in the middle. So in this case, I don't know, I guess I could call Jordan Peterson theist because they changed it from Christian versus atheist to Jordan Peterson versus atheist. So I think I could safely say that Jordan Peterson believes in God. I think he's been visiting Catholic churches.

I think that his wife became Catholic, but he hasn't said that he's become Catholic. So I think that I would say that he's a theist. So he goes through these four claims, and everyone around him is trying to contend with these claims. And they literally race to the chair to try to debate with Jordan Peterson. There seems like there's some voting process by the other participants that when the person debate,

dating Jordan Peterson either like uses a logical fallacy or they've just like spent enough time arguing with them. They raise their red flags and they're ready to move on to the next person and then a cluster of them races to the seat. They take their seat. They have a few minutes to debate. So it's very fast-paced, very high stress and intense probably for everyone involved. But here are the four claims that they're supposed to be contending with that Jordan Peterson makes claim one is atheists, reject God, but they don't know what they're rejecting. And then we've got claim two, and that is morality and purpose can't be found within science. And then Jordan Peterson's third claim is that everyone worships something.

And then his last claim is that atheists accept Christian morality. They just deny the religious foundation of Christian. morality. So we'll go through some of these clips and I'll tell you what Jordan Peterson said and what I would say to these things, both to you and in some way to these atheists. But before we get into it, let me go ahead and pause and tell you about our first sponsor for the day. It's Interior Delights. Y'all, Interior Delights is an amazing Colorado-based company. It's a Christian-owned company. Sarah started Interior Delights because of her passion for design for making spaces, beautiful and she was offering her services to those in her community and then she started selling

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Claim 1. Atheists don't know what they're rejecting. So Jordan Peterson said, atheists reject God, but they don't actually know what they are rejecting. So here is someone named David, one of the atheists that rushed to the chair, got to the chair first, sat down and asked this question sought one. Tell me everything that you know about the Polynesian deity Lono, L-O-N-O.

I don't know anything about the Polynesian deity Lono. So you're rejecting something without knowledge of what you're rejecting. I'm not rejecting it. Do you believe in Lono? Do you believe in Lono? Do you believe that he is a deity that exists in the world, exists in the universe,

that exists in the existence of everything? Do you believe? Do you believe that Lono? I'll answer that question once you answer my question, which is, do I reject everything that I'm ignorant of? Because that's your presupposition that undergirds your argument, and unless you can prove that that's valid, then there's no point. My question is quite simple. Yeah, but that doesn't mean it's formulated accurately. Do you believe that Lono exists?

Yes or no? I'm not going to answer that question for the reasons I just described. Okay. So here's what I would say. You don't have to know something to reject it. You don't have to understand something to reject it if what you accept precludes the validity or existence of the thing you're rejecting. Okay, so let me explain what I mean. So I am a Christian. Christians believe in the triune God of the Bible. The God we believe in says this about himself in Isaiah 44, 5. I am the Lord and there is no other. Besides me, there is no God. So because I am a Christian, because Christians believe in God, and because Christians believe the Bible is God's word, and because the Bible tells us that there is no God besides my God, I don't believe in Lono or any other false God. You don't have to know something or understand something even to reject it. I married my

husband, I reject all other men, even though I don't know most of them. But marriage is by nature, by definition, exclusive. And so you are announcing your rejection of all others when you enter into that covenant. The Christian God is by nature exclusive. And believing in him means believing that he is the way, the truth, the life as we read in God's word in John 146. And again, you may say, well, atheists don't believe that. They'd rebut that by saying they don't believe in God. They don't believe in the Bible. Yes, but that's actually irrelevant right now to the question that's being asked, the claim and the counterclaim that are being leveled right now. What's relevant is that it is logically and theoretically possible to reject an idea or

an entity that you don't know about or understand. And Jordan Peterson's claim that atheists reject what they don't understand can still be true in light of this answer. Because Jordan did not actually claim that you can never reject that which you don't understand. That's not what he said. That's what this atheist is assuming that he meant by his claim, but that's not actually what he said in his claim. he claimed that atheists specifically reject that which they don't understand. Not that no one can reject anything that they don't understand. Now, I don't know if Jordan Peterson's claim is true. It's not a claim that I would make in a debate because I have found through experience

that you are more likely to win an argument. if you overestimate your opponent rather than underestimate him. So you go into an argument assuming that your opponent is very smart, very logical, prepared, has a full understanding of what they believe and why. When you assume that going into an argument rather than assuming that your opponent is stupid and that you're so much smarter than them, when you assume that they are smart and logical, you will come up in your preparation with much better arguments. I would assume that everyone in that room knows Christianity well and is well versed in the arguments against it.

Now, I don't know if that's true, but it is a safer assumption. It's safer for me to assume that than to assume that they don't know what they're talking about and they don't know what they're rejecting. Because then when they prove very quickly that they're not stupid, that they do have a good understanding of what they're rejecting, then you're left looking unprepared. And I'm not saying that Jordan Peterson is consciously thinking, these people are stupid and I'm so much smarter than them. I'm not assuming that he's thinking that.

But to start with a claim that atheists never know, they don't know what they're rejecting when they're rejecting God. I think that is a difficult and dangerous and slippery place to start. as a debater. But for the record, like, this guy didn't actually have a good question. Because, again, he's not actually directly addressing the claim that Jordan Peterson made there. He's not really contending with the argument. He thinks that he made a good claim, but he didn't really. Okay, then we have someone who is addressing this claim one named Greg. Actually, he went before the Lono guy. So his, no, his name is not Greg. It's Kate. He says, my background is in studying to become a

traditional Catholic priest, daily mass, daily rosary, going on long retreats, deep into the magisterium and biblical hermeneutics like I was thoroughly in it. And it seems I do know what I'm missing. Is there something that I missed over years of study both of this issue formally and living out religion so deeply. And Jordan Peterson said, well, obviously, you know, there's something that you were missing during this training for the priesthood, but Jordan Peterson didn't really elaborate on that. I would say in the beginning, Jordan got better throughout the debate. He seemed very agitated, I would say, by the first people who sat down across from them. And it's true that the opponents are going to be kind of adversarial. Everyone is feeling very tense and agitated because it is

so quick and it's such an intense experience. Even just the look of it is very intense. And so there was a there was a lot of tension, I would say, between them. But I don't think that Cade got a very good answer for what he said because he's trying to say, okay, you're telling me, I don't know what I'm missing, but I know religion. I know Catholicism. I studied the Bible. I studied these religious traditions. I prayed every day. How could you? How could could you tell me that I don't know what I'm missing? And I think that's a fair point, which is why I don't think the claim that you don't even understand what you're arguing atheist is a good place to start. Because then how do you respond to someone like this who has been studying

religion in Catholicism specifically for so long? But the truth is, Cade misses what it actually means to be a Christian. It's not primarily about formality of study. It is not about how deeply religious life is lived out. It's not about how many times you pray the rosary. It's not about going to seminary. It's not about, you know, participating in the worship team. This is actually what separates Christianity from every other religion in the world. We don't become Christians by the behavior that we live out. We don't become Christians or become reconciled to God through works of our own. The Bible actually says that our righteousness is like filthy rags, but we are justified by grace through faith in the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. We read that

in Ephesians 2 8 through 9. We read in Titus 3, 5 through 6. He says, us not because of works done by us and righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ, our Savior. There is a saying that says often heaven is missed by 18 inches. 18 inches is roughly the distance between the head and the heart. So it could be possible, Cade, that you did have the head knowledge, that you knew. about the doctrines of Catholicism. You participated in the sacraments, but that you didn't know the gospel, that you didn't understand it, that you didn't really believe it. I think that's true of a lot of

people, whether you're Protestant, whether you are a Catholic, that you can have all of the head theological knowledge, but it's never been embedded into your heart so that you can look at a chair and say, I know that's a chair, but you'll never sit in it because you don't really believe that it can hold you. That means you have knowledge of what something is, but you don't have faith in its function, in its power. And in Christianity, it is the faith that is given to us as a gift of grace by God that saves us, not our actions. So maybe this is what Jordan Peterson was implying when he said, well, obviously you missed something when you were studying for the priesthood. I might say the same thing, but I would want to

explain what he actually missed, that just because you have a cognitive understanding of Christianity does not actually mean that you understood God, or you understood what it means to have a relationship with God, or you understood the crux of what it means to be a Christian, which is the gospel. So I would say that that was a missed opportunity there. And again, when you have someone who doesn't identify as a Christian, you're debating with a bunch of people, as we'll see later, who thought that they were going to be debating a Christian, you get a lot of things that are just missed. They're kind of speaking past each other because there are different expectations and different definitions of things. And we see in this debate that Jordan Peterson

doesn't actually believe in God as the Bible describes God. He believes in God as your conscience. Here's that too. So Elijah, the prophet Elijah, defined God in the Old Testament as the voice of conscience within. Okay. That's a definition. So you're saying by that definition of God, I guess, see, this kind of goes back to where I'm saying initially. I'm not defining it. Elijah defines it. Okay. So as Elijah's, as Elijah defines God. It's defined that way in Jonah, too. Okay. So as. Cardinal Newman also defined it that way.

As I'm sure you know many people who have defined it that way. And it's impressive. You're a very knowledgeable person. I'm not trying to be impressive. I'm just pointing out to you how God is defined in the Old Testament. All right. So to respond to that, I do think there are lots of interesting ways to define God. And that goes back to my kind of opening statement. Then how do we specify what we're arguing about?

We use context clues. Again, it goes back to my example of the Mona Lisa. I'm defining God as conscience. Okay. So that's interesting. But then you're kind of expanding the meaning of God. No, not. That's how it's defined in the Old Testament. In Elijah and in Jonah.

Sure. So whoever. So. It's not whoever. Elijah is one of the major Old Testament prophets. He's equal in stature to Moses. So it's not arbitrary. All right.

So that is interesting, but it's not relevant to the context with which I am using the term God. It's directly relevant. Atheists reject God, but they don't understand what they're rejecting. You accept conscience as a guide and conscience is one of the defining character is. of God in the old test. I think you're being intellectually disingenuous. In what way? Because...

I asked you if you believe the conscience guided you. You just asked me a question and then you stopped me from answering it. In this setting, you understand the way I am using the term God in belief. Not in the least. I don't understand how you're using it in the least. That's why I'm trying to define it. My definition of God as conscience is a lot more precise and oriented than your definition of the God that you hypothetically disbelieve in.

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Go to share the arrows. Okay, let's respond to that long clip. And I know it was longer than clips I typically play, but that's because there was a lot of context. I actually wanted to play their whole exchange. I really liked this guy. His name was Greg. I just really liked his demeanor.

So he's trying to get Jordan Peterson to nail down his definition of God, which is fair because for any conversation, especially a debate that you have, you need to define your terms. I learned that even more during 2020. When we're talking about racism and justice and equality and equity, all of these things have so many nowadays malleable meanings. And for Christians, we need to be able to define what they are for everyone, but especially for Christians. So we define them in reality and morality, in the Bible most importantly. And when you're having a debate with someone that you have a totally different worldview from, you need to be able to decide upon a shared definition so you can have a conversation.

That's like the basis of communication. That's why the Tower of Babel was such a curse because no one had the same words. So he is trying to nail down what do you Jordan Peterson actually believe about God? So we can debate if we even disagree. So they both agree. They both agree on that. They both agree that they can't really have this debate if they can't see eye to eye on who God is. But as a Christian, I have no idea what Peterson is talking about there.

Like, I have no idea. I share Greg's frustration here. God is not conscience. He's not, not according to the Christian worldview. He's not. Maybe there are some people who call themselves Christians who would say that, that there are a lot of people who call themselves Christians who say a lot of wacky things. And that is why we have the Bible. as our authority. God convicts our conscience, our mechanism of discerning right and wrong. He can use

his Holy Spirit to convict us of right and wrong. I think he can choose to reveal to the non-Christian what's right and wrong. I think being made in God's image, having eternity written on the human heart as we read in Ecclesiastes 311, I think all of that gives all people some innate sense of justice versus injustice. In the New Testament, we see this word conscience quite a few times, several times Paul references his own conscience, saying my conscience is clear, I have a good conscience. So he's saying in context there, and even if you look at the original Greek, he's saying, like, I told the truth. I did what I said I was going to do. I acted with integrity. I obeyed God. I did right by others. And 1 Timothy 4, we read that in the end times, sinners' consciences will be seared.

That word seared, that means burn to the point of no longer having functioning nerve endings. So meaning that their consciences won't be able to feel the prick of conviction, of conviction, rather. So God is not conscience. He created the conscience. He can govern the conscience, but he himself is not conscience. He doesn't give us that option in Scripture. Genesis 1-1, very first verse of the first chapter of the first book of the Bible, says that God created the heavens and the earth.

So in that very first verse, we read that God is far more than conscience. He is creator. And in John 1, we see that Jesus is this God, that everything God the Father did in the Old Testament, Jesus participated in as the second and equal person in the Trinity. along with the Holy Spirit. So that means that God is creator and he is Savior. So if I were there, I'd say, we are talking about, I am talking about God is the creator

of the universe, the authority over all of it, that God is defined by the Bible, alpha omega, the whole shebang. And then we could go from there. Obviously, that person would disagree that that entity exists, that God exists, but we would need to agree that that is who we are talking about. This person claims, this person, Greg, who seems like a nice person, misguided, I would say, but nice. He claimed that his conscience is dictated by empathy, restrained by reason.

Okay. That's interesting. That's actually better, I would say, than what a lot of progressives would say. They would say that they are led by empathy, completely untethered empathy. No parameters on their empathy. That's why I read the book toxic empathy. But Peterson asks a good question to Greg. He says, what is the mediating principle between two people's contradicting empathetic feelings?

If that's what you're led by, if you're led by empathy that is bound by some sort of reason, what if two people have contradicting ideas of like what is most empathetic in that scenario? And Greg concedes that that's a good question and he doesn't really know if he's, he has the answer to that. Greg says, you know, that's when you talk it out. And I just wish that they would have gone further on that because that's really it. That's really it. And the guy didn't have a good answer for it is that the atheist really doesn't have a good answer for why morality exists or where it comes from. But they all agree that some kind of moral principle is necessary to govern society. So I would ask when he says, you know, it's empathy guided by reason. I would have asked. I would have asked, asked him, what is reason and why? Like, what reason is guiding you and why? Why does your empathy have to be dictated by reason? And what guide are you using to constrain your empathy and define your reason? He uses an example, Greg, uses an example of he's driving and he sees a kitten being stuck in the middle of the road. He says he would feel empathy for the kitten and he'd be really

sad, but he wouldn't stop because he says reason tells him it's dangerous to stop for the kitten. So is it self-interest that guides your reason to constrain your empathy? Is it interest for others well-being? Which one? And if so, why? Why is your life, Greg, or the life of the people on the road more important than this kitten's life? What tells you that? It's not reason alone. It can't be reason alone that's constraining your income. empathy in that case, it is an inherent understanding that your life and the lives of the other humans on the road are more important that the singular kitten's life. And I bet that calculation would change, hopefully, if you saw a grandmother or a child standing in the middle of the road.

And the question is why? The question is, what are the inputs for the atheist moral calculations? It's not just reason. It's not just rationale. It's not just logic because reason alone cannot tell you why your life is more valuable than a stray cat's life. That is the interesting question. And I've never heard an atheist answer it well. So I wish that they would have gone more into that. Now, this idea of God is conscience. Peterson, when he said, As Elijah refers to God his conscience, I was trying to figure out what exactly he meant by that. There could be something that I've never heard of. There could be a teaching that I have not seen. I think he might be referring to God speaking to Elijah after the whirlwind, after the storm, in a still small voice. He might be proof texting that. So he might be taking that and saying, oh, still small.

voice, that kind of sounds like how we refer to our conscience. But Elijah certainly did not believe that God was simply conscience. Elijah would have believed, would have known as Moses knew, like that God is the great I am, that he is the creator, that he is the lawgiver, he is the beginning and the end. God spoke to Moses through a burning bush, not as his conscience, but as his God, as his ruler, to tell him how to save and preserve his people. And so just because God decides to talk to Elijah in a different way than he talked to Moses does not mean that God is conscience. Again, God can govern conscience as he did for Moses, as did for Elijah, as he does to his people. But that doesn't mean that God is conscience. So that's a

different definition there. I think that this section of the debate brings to light the fact that Jordan Peterson's belief in the scriptures is not actually based on a Christian understanding of who God is and what Christ has done to save humanity. Like Christ is not just an archetype. This is not just a meta-narrative that we can kind of like copy and paste here today. It's not just that. It's not just to that. I think that there are symbols and lessons and archetypes that we can look for in the Bible, but that's not the point. That's not the point of Scripture. That's not the point of the Ark of redemption. That's not the point of Christ. It's not the point of God's eternal plan of redemption. Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 1519, if in Christ we have hope in this life only, we are of all people most to be pitied.

So it's not just that the Bible gives us some good lessons and some good regulations or that Jesus helps us navigate this life in some kind of upward trajectory. As I heard Jordan Peterson say throughout this debate, it is that he gives us real resurrection hope for the next life. And if he doesn't give us that, then we are people to be shamed and we should be embarrassed. Christianity, without the hope of the resurrection, without the hope of the next life, the greatest evangelist in the world, Paul says it is embarrassing. So I see this a lot. I've seen this with Richard Dawkins. I've seen this with a lot of people who seem to be really attracted to the traditions of Christianity and the lessons of Christianity who don't buy in to this whole Emmanuel

well, God made flesh thing, this whole resurrection thing. And it's actually, we could look at that and say, well, that's useful, that's practical, that's better than, you know, than believing in Islam. And yes, pragmatically, that may be true, but the Bible says it's actually embarrassing to have that kind of short-sighted, just earthly faith. And it is. Why sacrifice for something that is going to end you up in the same place as atheism or anything else will lead you to. All right. Okay. So the second claim, that's just the first claim.

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Now we have Lucas. So under this claim that morality and purpose can be found within science, and I guess the implication, although maybe it's too far to say the implication, is that morality and purpose have to be from God. I would say from Christianity, not just from any supernatural entity, but that seems to be the implication here. And actually the implication is what most of the debaters are debating against. And maybe that's their error or maybe it's a safe assumption. But that's what this person, Lucas is doing. He says that he is a former young earth fundamentalist YouTube apologist.

Interesting. And yet he doesn't know the answer to one of the most basic. It's a good question, but one of the most basic apologetics questions, which is like why? Why? did God allow, or does God allow bad things to happen? And how do we reconcile the fact that slavery existed in the Old Testament? And God seems to not have done anything about it. Here's thought three. In the Bible, it talks a lot about slavery, right? Yes. Yes. So in that, it teaches you how to take care of a slave. Rather than saying slavery's wrong, I think it should say that in the story of Moses. It says slavery is incorrect. It says it's immoral. Well, that's why Moses leads us people away from slavery.

But why does the Bible predicate and tell people exactly how to take care of a slave? Isn't that immoral? Wouldn't you say that culturally we've evolved as a species, as he said earlier, about empathy? Yeah, I would say that the reason we evolved, so to speak, away from slavery, was because the West was founded on Judeo-Christian morality and the presumption that every person was made in the image of God. Wouldn't you say that? So slavery itself became immoral, and that was established by Protestant Christians in the UK,

convinced the UK government for 200 years to go to war on slavery. And what do you say that this is about the cultural evolution of humans in general rather than just Christianity? No, I think it's the flowering of the ideas that were embedded in the biblical texts across long spans of time. I feel like this is just humans editing based on the cultural evolution. What do you mean by just? Okay, I liked the last part of Jordan Peterson's answer there because he is absolutely right. And I'm sorry, but this is not actually a good, sound, interesting argument from Lucas. I think he could have stopped where he said, well, why doesn't the Bible condemn slavery? But then to say that human beings in general have evolved to the point of not liking slavery, that's just not true. This is not

true. I mean, look at the world. This is such a basic talking point from secular progressives. And I find it so interesting how many apparently former fundamentalists, former church, goers. They claim that they had been in church forever. They transition into these atheists or agnostics, and they come out swinging with the most basic, tired arguments about the Bible and Christianity. I see it on social media every single day. Okay, here's what I would say. Not every part, and this is like mostly to Christians, but I'd probably try to explain the Christian position to an atheist like this too. Not every part of the Bible is prescriptive. Some of it is just descriptive. it's true that the Old Testament law did not ban outright the owning of slaves. But we see in

Deuteronomy 24 and elsewhere in the Old Testament that slavery was to be the last resort for someone who could not provide for his family. It was actually a way for destitute people to be cared for. And in Deuteronomy and Exodus, God gives very clear specifications for how slaves were to be treated. They had rights as image bearers of God. They had protections under the law. They were not to be treated as objects or as property. God is categorically, we see throughout Scripture, against oppression. The kind of slavery that Israelites were enduring in Egypt was oppressive.

And God freed them from that. And in the New Testament, slavery and the Roman Empire was acknowledged. Slaves were told to obey their masters. but they were also encouraged to seek freedom if they could. And masters were instructed to care for their slaves in, for example, Ephesion 6.9. Slaves were told that in Christ, they had the same position before God as free people did. Galatians 328. Paul doesn't tell Philemon to free Onesimus, but encourages Philemon to welcome him as he would a brother.

So it is true that the Bible does not outright condemn every single form of slavery, but the biblical attitude toward slaves as made in God's image, as people with rights, as people fully able to receive salvation by grace through faith, receive riches in Christ, completely contradicted how every other culture and religion has viewed slavery throughout history, which was and still is in many cultures today in a moral fact of life. It was not, as Jordan Peterson pointed out, until Christians in the West started making an issue of slavery that it was eventually fought against and defeated. Slavery still exists today around the world to say that people have just evolved.

And so we don't accept slavery anymore. I mean, that is so myopic. And it is so often atheists and progressives who say that, well, we Americans, we're just so blinded by our Western lens. And we just need to open our eyes to the way that other countries do things. Well, Africa still has slavery. China still has slavery. Africa sold slaves to Americans hundreds of years ago. And they still sell and use slaves to this day.

China makes its weaker Muslim population. slaves. So no, humanity in general has not evolved. Christianity's influence has grown. I've talked about this many times how in the Roman pagan world, people's worth was determined by their logos, little L logos, so their ability to reason, their ability to rationalize. And it was believed by the scholars of that time that only the adult free male had the fullness of logos and therefore the adult free male only had the fullness of value as a human being. And consequently, other kinds of people were treated as subhuman, especially children. That's why abortion and infanticide, a terrible practice called exposure where unwanted newborns were placed on a hill, exposed to the elements to die.

All of that was a widespread, well-documented practice. And it took years and years to change that, to stigmatize those practices, to stigmatize child sex slavery, which was rampant in the pagan Roman empire at the time, to stigmatize and eventually criminalize the mistreatment of the poor and the homeless and the sick. And how was that stigmatized? How were those brutal practices eventually criminalized? How were they eventually replaced with taking special care of the widow and the child and the orphan and the sick and the poor. It didn't just evolve in that way. It was Christians. Christians entered the scene. Christians who preached the gospel of Jesus of Nazareth. Christians who worshipped a God who came to earth as an embryo, who was heralded by the

kicks of an unborn John the Baptist, who was born as an infant in a manger, who as an adult, against the protestation of his disciples said, let the little children come to me, for such as these belong the kingdom of heaven. This Jesus who healed the sick, who helped the poor, who told his people to do the same. The people, the followers of the way, Christians, little Christ, change how the world saw children. Changed how the world defined right and wrong. changed how the world defined justice, introduced the world to the concept of human rights that didn't just naturally happen. How in the world would that naturally happen? Can't you look at history? Can't you look at the world today and see that humans err towards oppression and selfishness and violence

and injustice? And it takes effort to go the opposite direction. Holy Spirit empowered efforts to go. the opposite direction. So even just the most basic observation can see that human beings don't evolve towards empathy and goodness and virtue. Christianity has forged Western civilization in a way that has completely revolutionized how the world sees people. And Jordan Peterson is right that, well, we'll get to that. I'm getting a little ahead of myself. That progressives take for granted the rights and the values and the virtues that have been long heralded by the West and they reject their religious, their Christian foundations. So this person who claims to know so much about the Bible really doesn't know that much about Christianity. Okay, let's move on.

I'm trying to, I'm running out of time here, and so I have to skip ahead. There are some other interesting questions that were asked by different atheists under that one that second claim but we just don't have time for it so here's claim three everyone worship something including atheists so zena i think she's one of my favorite uh participants in this debate she asked some really good questions jordan peterson really liked her too here's what she has to say stop for what makes someone a christian and what makes someone not a christian what makes like that's what i'm trying to figure out because that's a good question yes Yeah, well, probably the deepest answer to that is willingness to shoulder your cross voluntarily and trudge uphill regardless of circumstances.

Okay, so she goes on to say that she doesn't think you can get that definition of Christian, what Jordan Peterson just articulated from the Bible, and that anyone could orient their lives in that way without being a Christian. And she is correct. Like I just appreciate that she, a lot of these people, not all of them, but she at least has a good understanding of what Christians say we believe. And like I said at the beginning, it is always better to start from that position. And she's very effective, I think, in this conversation because she's still manning the argument. She's not straw manning it. She's still manning it. She is trying her best to accurately represent what Christians believe. so then she can properly argue against it.

The truth is that being self-sacrificial does not matter. I mean, spiritually, eternally at all. Unless you believe Jesus is who he says he is, God, and that he died for your sins and rose from the debt. Lots of people are self-sacrificial who are not Christian. Christianity is a faith. It is a faith. It is not a set of rules.

Faith is something you believe. Hebrews 111. Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for. Think about that. Faith is the assurance of things hoped for. The conviction of things not seen. Galatians 324 says that we Christians are justified. We are made right, made righteous before God by faith. We are justified by our faith. Peterson says that when Jesus says, not all who say Lord Lord will be saved. He mentions that verse in this debate. He says that the differentiator between those who just say Lord Lord and those who are really Christian is about your actions. And I could see how he would think that may be from Matthew 25. But as he also points out in different parts of this debate, you have to look at scripture in light of the rest of scripture. You have to look at

scripture in context. And when we see that, we can see that when we do that, we can see that it's not works that justify you. It's not true that the differentiator for Christians is the behavior. It's about who actually believes it. And the work will follow true faith and true belief, but it is the faith given to us by God's grace that justifies us. That's Ephesians 2 8 through 10. It's not the works of the law that justify you. It is not your righteousness. It's not not your good works. It's not your prayers. It is actually the faith that is given to you by God that justifies you and makes you right before God. So he's simply not correct when he defines what it actually means to be a Christian. All right. We've got someone who's pointing out,

well, it doesn't seem like you are a Christian, Jordan Peterson, and Jordan Peterson's got an interesting answer. Let me pause and tell you about our next sponsor. That is Faith Under Siege. This is a really interesting documentary. It's about the persecution of Christians. There is persecution of Christians happening right now in Ukraine. This is called a faith under siege Russia's hidden war on Ukraine Christians and a region once celebrated as the post-Soviet Bible Belt. A rapidly growing community of evangelical and Protestant believers has become a prime target under Russia's expanding occupation. This film recently gained exposure at the Museum of the Bible. Producers hoped to shed light. on the crisis and mobilize Christians to see this film to learn more about what is going on with our brothers and sisters in Christ over there, visit faith underseege.com. You could also download their prayer guide to pray for peace in Ukraine, the return of abducted children, freedom for Christians under occupation. Go to faith under siege.com. All right. So this person, Danny, says, well, I don't think you're a Christian. Stop five.

Are you familiar with the Immaculate Conception? Why is that relevant? Because you go to a Catholic church, don't you? You've attended recently. You're interested in Catholicism, aren't you? Sure. All right. Are you familiar with their doctrines?

Somewhat? Okay. Their doctrines are very deep. How do they regard Mary? Why are you asking me that? Because you're a Christian. You say that. I haven't claimed that.

Oh, what is this? Is this Christians versus atheist? I don't know. You don't know where you are right now. Don't be a smart ass. Well, either you're a Christian or you're not. I won't talk to you if you're a smart ass. Oh, either you're a Christian.

Christian or you're not. Which one is it? I could be either of them, but I don't have to tell you. You don't have to tell me. I was under the impression. I was invited to talk to a Christian. Am I not talking to a Christian? No, you were invited to. I think everyone should look at the title of the YouTube channel. You're probably in the wrong YouTube video. You're really quite something. You are. Aren't I? But you're really quite nothing. Right? You're not a Christian. Okay, I'm done with him. Okay, Reddit Timothy Shamaulay. He was snooty. I didn't like Danny. Okay. I didn't like Danny. I liked some of these other participants did not like Danny. I actually do not blame Jordan Peterson for how he reacted because I don't think this guy was trying to have an honest debate. This clip is going around as some sort of like dunk on Jordan Peterson. But I don't see it as that. Like I see this guy as acting in bad faith. Okay. So I will I will answer this. And obviously I am a problem. Protestant. I'm sure that you have gathered that if you are new here. And I really appreciate my

Catholic listeners so much. And there's so much that we, so much that we agree on. And so many things I appreciate about my Catholic friends and followers. But what I'm about to say is probably going to ruffle feathers, which I totally understand. So just stick with me. Okay. I'm not totally sure what Danny was getting at when he was asking about Mary and if Catholics worship Mary. I am all for a good veneration of Mary debate, and I'm going to get into some points at a second, but I'm not sure what he was trying to prove here or how the Catholic veneration of Mary would disprove Peterson's claim that everyone worship something. Maybe he was going to say, I'm going to give Danny the benefit of the doubt and act like he had like a thought out argument

here. Maybe he did. So to assume the best, maybe he was going to say this, that Catholics say they don't worship Mary, but they pray to her. They have iconography of her. They prioritize her. They ascribe to her superhuman qualities like the ability to understand all the languages of the world and carry those prayers to God. And this, and Danny, this atheist, might be saying, well, that seems to fit your definition of worship. And Jordan's definition of worship is to attend to or prioritize and Catholics attend to, he might say, and prioritize Mary, but they say they don't worship her. So Danny is probably trying to argue in the same way atheists attend to and prioritize certain things, but they don't worship them. Okay. As a Protestant, I would say no, that is worship.

I know Catholics say that they don't worship Mary. I totally understand that. But I would say praying to an icon of something daily and giving someone characteristics that are biblically only reserved for God. Jesus is the mediator between God and man. Jesus gives us peace. The Holy Spirit tells us what to pray. Here's our prayers intercedes for us. Jesus is the only sinless one. Jesus is the only one who is immaculately conceived. All of that, no matter what you call it, does seem to amount to worship. And by the way, this is an aside, we don't see this reflected in scripture at all. The Bible gives us the best picture of what the early church was like in Acts and in the epistles.

We see no mention at all of honoring Mary in this way, not even a slight implication of it. So that line of argumentation from Danny wouldn't have worked on me. But Peterson is right in this claim. Everyone worship something. You might worship money, your job, your free time, sex. sports. And I don't think prioritize and attend to is a bad definition of worship. But there's more. I would say it is what do you orient your life around? What directs you? I'd argue that most atheist today and even those who claimed to be religious worship the God of self. It can also

mean like to adulate or to adore and or to um to praise and so there i think is an expanded definition of what worship can actually mean and i think that the claim is an interesting one and i wish they would have gone a little bit different of a direction at least with danny is that his name um at least with Danny. But there are some interesting parts in that, and I do encourage you to go back and to watch that part of the debate. Okay, here's the last claim. Atheists accept Christian morality, Jordan Peterson, claims, but deny their religious foundations, which I agree with. Okay, here is what Ian has to say. Ian might be, I think, more irritating than Danny. And that's a lot. Here's not six. So God says that you can own people as property. He says that you can.

can beat them with a rod too. He commands genocide and Deuteronomy in numbers and in Samuel. I mean, they have a baby barbecue in numbers. Is all of this in line with Christian ethics? No. So then God doesn't fit within Christian ethics? Well, the biblical library is a continuing story and everything written and it has to be contextualized by the entire text. There's 65,000 hyperlinks in the biblical text. And you can take pieces of it out, out of context, and criticize them. And that's what you're doing. But that's a mistake, I think.

It's an analytic mistake because you're putting the cart before the horse. Okay, first of all, God does not say that you can own people as property. As we've already explained about slavery, those people are still made in the image of God. That was a relief from their destitution and from their severe poverty last resort. that part is not true. And so he's proof texting it. He is putting his idea into scripture. And Jordan Peterson is right that you do have to read scripture in light of scripture. And I will give this guy credit. At least he was able to articulate the entire thrust of his argument, unlike our friend, Danny. So Peterson says more about that. And he is absolutely right that decontextualizing

scripture to make a point is an analytical mistake. To read scripture in context and as you would read any other historical account or even a literary account if you don't think that this is real history is to know that not everything is prescriptive as we've already noted. Solomon had lots of wives. That is descriptive, not prescriptive. And not everything that God prescribed to Israel at that time is a prescription for. for us today. So looking at the whole biblical narrative, we see that Israel was God's chosen people.

He created all people, but not all people were his. We see throughout the Old Testament that God will stop at nothing to glorify himself and to protect his chosen people, to preserve them, to fight on their behalf, even when they sinned, even when they rebelled, because of his mercy, he preserved them. And in the New Testament, we see that God, again, again, stops at nothing to save his own people, a new people made up of both Jews and Gentiles through Christ, for which he sacrifices his own son. So the bloody brutality endured by God's enemies to save Israel points to the bloody brutality endured by God's son to save his enemies. That's us. So I'll repeat what I said a couple weeks ago about Passover that

explains this. And I was telling the story about when my daughter asked why people would celebrate Passover if children in Egypt died. And this is not the explanation I gave to her, who is five. This is the explanation that I'm giving you adults. But Passover is celebrated, not because of the death that occurred, but because God was making a way for his people to be saved. And it took this action, this killing to convince Pharaoh to let God's people go and free them from slavery. The lamb's blood over the door frames of the houses of Israel that signaled God's spirit to pass over them was a signifier of what was to come. The blood of the final spotless lamb, Jesus, which cleanses us from sin and saves us from eternal death. Also, in Exodus 422, God calls Israel his firstborn son.

He says, you, Egypt and Pharaoh, you're killing and oppressing my firstborn. I will now kill your firstborn. So here, he kills his enemy's firstborn son to save his own firstborn son. Israel. But in the New Testament, what does God do? He kills his own son to save his enemies who become his sons and daughters. So in the Old Testament, he kills his enemy to save his children. And the New Testament, he kills his child to save his enemies. I think of Romans 515. For if many die through one man's trespass, that's Adam, much more have the grace of God and the free gift of the grace of that one man, Jesus Christ abounded for the many.

We also see that God hates oppression. He hates sin. He hates injustice. He flooded the earth because of the evil happening in the world. And he commanded Israel to wipe out the Amalekites because of their sin and oppression. That's what this guy was talking about here, the defeat of the Amalekites and how God instructed Israel to kill all of them, including their children. and their infants. But again, context, the Amalekites were known as nomadic plunders. For centuries, they traveled around terrorizing people groups and praying upon the weakest among them, women and

children. They did this to Israel. We see this in Deuteronomy and Exodus and 1st Samuel. Several references to the wickedness of the Amalekites throughout the Old Testament showed the just kind of darkness that they were up against. So God wanted to ensure that no descendants of the Amalekites would be able to inflict this kind of terror again. So in 1 Samuel 15, he tells King Saul, not everyone everywhere at all times. He tells King Saul, you need to totally destroy the Amalekites, including their children. And Saul disobeyed, by the way, and he didn't destroy everyone. And the Amalekites continued to terrorize Israel and other people groups for centuries,

killing other women and children. So I think we have no clue the wickedness committed by some of these pagan societies. We do know that child sacrifice was rampant. All kinds of depravity and violence were the norm. I saw the other day someone posted this archaeological finding. It was a picture of this mask that had been dug up that was believed to be worn in ancient societies. It was written about. Worn in ancient societies to mock the victims of child sacrifice as they were screaming being fed to the fire to please their gods.

When you read things like that, the kind of malice and deep depravity that existed, it's like, it's no wonder that God ordered for the destruction of some of these groups. And actually, the children were probably spared torture and torment by God carrying this out. No one likes the idea of babies dying. Well, I don't like the idea of babies dying. I would actually say it's a little ironic because pro-abortionists have no problem with this, which is, of course, the irony here that this guy more than likely celebrates abortion. which is widespread infanticide and thinks that he's morally superior to Christians who have been on the

front lines against infanticide and child sex trafficking and slavery and the mistreatment of orphans and widows and the poor for millennia. The hard truth is there are things about the Bible and history and God that we do not understand. If there are things that we understand that kids can't understand just in general and we're two finite beings, then how much bigger is the gap of understanding between us and God, finite beings and an infinite one. We don't explain everything to our toddlers that they don't understand because we know that telling them too many details would probably make them more anxious. And so don't you think it's possible that God doesn't explain everything to us because we

don't have the capacity to fully understand it? And by the way, the inclusion of stories like that in Scripture actually lend to Scripture's credibility. Like if the Bible were just compiled by men who wanted to assert their religion and way of life onto society, they would have excluded all the difficult to understand stuff. They wouldn't have included the passages about God destroying or ordering the destruction of societies. They would have just made a PR pamphlet for him. Instead, they included the hard stuff. They included the stuff that shows how difficult God's people have it. So that's, I probably wouldn't have time to answer

that thoroughly in that kind of setting, but that's what I would say. It's a good question. It's a difficult question, but it is an answerable question. Now, whether or not that answer is satisfactory to the atheist there, I don't know. All in all, I actually think that Jordan Peterson did a lot better than some critics on social media are saying. I think it was a missed opportunity, however. There should have been a Christian. There should have been a Christian representing the Christian position. And I'm not even sure that Peterson really believes. in God. It sounds to me like he believes an idea of God that could be the conscience that could perhaps be other things. I'm not even sure that fits the definition of theism. So it's a really

big missed opportunity here. It was more of an opportunity for atheists to dunk on someone who is opposing them. I really hope Jubilee does this again with a Christian apologist that can answer some of these questions. But kudos to everyone who volunteered for that because that's very intense and very tough and I enjoyed watching it and it made me think myself and I always welcomed the opportunity to think more deeply about my faith and why I believe what I believe. All right, just to close us out, I want to remind you to subscribe to Blaze TV. It's how you protect your ability to watch us. You protect this community. You protect our content. We are always battling with big tech, whether it is YouTube, whether it is Apple, trying to ensure that our content is actually

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