Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 1197 | It’s Not Too Late to Take Away Your Kid’s Phone | Guest: Clare Morell

Episode Date: May 29, 2025

In today's episode, we sit down with Clare Morell, author and fellow at the Ethics and Public Policy Center, to discuss the overwhelming negative effects that screens are having on our children. Clare explains the difference between passive and active screens and how while one is worse than the other, neither can really be called "good" for children. She even goes so far as to argue that the proper amount of screen time for children is none at all! And while we know “CoComelon” is frying babies' brains, is it actually worse than we thought? Buy Clare's book, "The Tech Exit: A Practical Guide to Freeing Kids and Teens from Smartphones": https://a.co/d/bsW4DLn Share the Arrows 2025 is on October 11 in Dallas, Texas! Go to ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠sharethearrows.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ for tickets now! Buy Allie's new book, "Toxic Empathy: How Progressives Exploit Christian Compassion": ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://a.co/d/4COtBxy⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ --- Timecodes: (00:41) Clare Morell introduction (01:21) “The Tech Exit”  (02:53) Why young kids should not have screen time (15:07) Screens in schools?  (17:42) How to stop screen time at home?  (34:12) No screen time at all?  (36:30) CoComelon is frying kids’ brains (40:05) Teenagers and screens (43:40) Apple is against online child safety? (54:09) Legislation --- Today's Sponsors: Seven Weeks — Experience the best coffee while supporting the pro-life movement with Seven Weeks Coffee; use code ALLIE at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.sevenweekscoffee.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ to save up to 25% off your first order, plus your free gift! Good Ranchers — Go to ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠GoodRanchers.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and subscribe to any of their boxes (but preferably the Allie Beth Stuckey Box) to get free Waygu burgers, hot dogs, bacon, or chicken wings in every box for life. Plus, you’ll get $40 off when you use code ALLIE at checkout. Fellowship Home Loans — Fellowship Home Loans is a mortgage lending company that offers home financing solutions while integrating Christian values such as honesty, integrity, and stewardship. Go to ⁠⁠⁠fellowshiphomeloans.com/allie⁠⁠⁠ to get up to $500 credit towards closing costs when you finance with Fellowship Home Loans. A Faith Under Siege — Watch the explosive new film "A Faith Under Siege: Russia's Hidden War on Ukraine Christians," detailing the persecution of believers under Russia's expanding occupation. Go to faithundersiege.com to watch today. --- Related Episodes: Ep 1162 | SkinnyTok, the iPad Pacifier & Paula White’s New Scam https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/ep-1162-skinnytok-the-ipad-pacifier-paula-whites-new-scam/id1359249098?i=1000701152306 Ep 803 | The Science Behind the Dangers of Screen Time | Guest: Dr. Nicholas Kardaras | Part 2 https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/ep-803-the-science-behind-screen-addiction-guest-dr/id1359249098?i=1000612546999 --- Buy Allie's book, You're Not Enough (& That's Okay): Escaping the Toxic Culture of Self-Love: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://alliebethstuckey.com/book⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Relatable merchandise – use promo code 'ALLIE10' for a discount: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://shop.blazemedia.com/collections/allie-stuckey

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She is the author of The Tech Exit, a practical guide to freeing kids and teens from smartphones. Her guidance today, her advice, the facts that she brings, they are so fascinating and helpful. This episode is brought to you by our friends at Good Ranchers. Go to Good Ranchers.com. use code alley at checkout. That's goodmanchers.com code alley. Claire, thanks so much for taking the time to join us. If you could tell everyone who you are and what you do. Yes, so I'm first and foremost of a mom.

I have three children, and I'm also a pastor's wife. I'm married to my husband, Caleb. He's in pastoral ministry. And then my professional work is that I work as a public policy expert, specifically focused on policy solutions, helping our lawmakers pass laws to protect our kids online from the harms of smartphones, social media, and online pornography. That's what I've done.

Yes. And you wrote this book, The Tech Exit, a practical guide to freeing kids and teens from smartphones. What I love about this is that this seems to target parents of kids who already have the smartphone because I think a lot of parents think if I didn't start by not giving them a phone when they were 11, then, you know, I just messed up and that's all it is. And I'm just going to have to hope for the best. But you're saying that's not true. You don't just have to give up now.

That's exactly right. No, this book is really actually meant to give parents a lot of hope that it's never too late to reverse course. And in fact, the younger, the better that children's brains can be reset. That is possible to actually detox from screens, especially interactive screens, like tablets or smartphones, and help your child's nervous system re-regulate and their brain reset. And they can actually really reform their habits without screens.

And so I walk parents through step by step how other families have done this digital detox, how they then keep going over the long term. And the message of the book really is that it is possible to give your children a smartphone-free childhood. And not only is it possible, but it's really fundamentally positive that all these families I've met and spoken with say that the saying no to screens was saying yes to so much more in real life, to real-life relationships, real-world responsibilities and activities. And they all say it's like the best parenting decision they feel like they've made just helping their kids be free of these devices.

Okay, before we get into the how, I want to talk about the why. And let's start with young kids. Why should a two-year-olds say not have tablet time every day? Yeah, so the brain is in really critical periods of development, especially in those early years. And the problem is that screens are way other stimulating for a child's developing. nervous system. And studies show that handing devices to these young children robs them of their ability to develop emotional regulation. It really steals those opportunities away because instead of developing patients and self-control and frustration tolerance, they're just learning to be calmed by a screen.

And so it undermines really parents' long-term goals for their kids. We want our children to be emotionally regulated, to have self-control, to be independent. But just even a daily screen time limit, even if it's a short amount of time is incredibly habit forming, that it's forming their habits towards the screen. And the problem is that the devices are made to be addictive to a child's brain. They are constantly drawn back for more. And I think that's what parents don't understand. They think, oh, well, I only give it for 10 minutes a day. But the problem is that the screen time limits don't map on to a child's mental or emotional time that is then spent craving more and more of that device. Because of the dopamine in the brain, they're going to constantly crave more.

And it really disregulates their developing nervous system. And so it's really actually important to protect those young years. I've heard that the smaller the screen, the worse it is, would you say that TV time is just as detrimental to a young child's brain as them playing on a tablet? I wouldn't say it's just as detrimental. A lot of experts differentiate between interactive screens and passive screens. So they would say a television is actually a passive screen. A child's not interacting with it. They're not pushing buttons or scrolling or getting immediate rewards or notifications back.

They're just, you know, taking in a program. Now, I think you can differentiate different types of programming on a television. So that's important. But interactive screens are a lot more immersive to a child. And the smaller the screen really is more dangerous because it makes it feel like this very individualized experience. And that's part of what then makes it so addictive. And I think the more I try to encourage parents, the bigger the screen, the better.

And the more that it can be a shared experience that parents and children are part of together that they're enjoying with their siblings, it can actually enhance the relationships. But I think tablets and smartphones actually tend to divide family relationships because then everyone becomes siloed on their own screens rather than interacting with each other, which is another kind of danger of the tablet, just sucking a child in, and they're immediately drawn away from whatever the in-person interaction was that was going on. And we can see that reflected in our own brains as adults that it's much easier to accidentally spend 45 minutes scrolling through Instagram.

That typically doesn't happen when you're watching a show. It's like, yeah, you might want to watch the next show, but you're more able to kind of discern, okay, this is how much time I've spent? Is this a good stopping point? The thing with social media and the thing with games is that there's no stopping point. As you said, it's meant to be addictive. So you never win these games. There's always something new.

There's always something different. There's always something novel to kind of continue to feed that dopamine, which is why it seems to me that it wouldn't just, you know, addict this child to unhealthy levels of like dopamine hits on a daily basis. But it also probably hinders their time regulation. Oh, yeah. When you look up as, you know, a three-year-old and you're like, oh, well, typically I can tell it's, you know, five minutes till bed time. And now I have no idea what time.

It is very disorienting. Oh, no, it's totally disorienting. And I think, you know, what else is important to remember is that children, their prefrontal cortex, the part of the brain that is responsible for our impulse control and our self-control isn't fully developed until the age of 25. And so an adult can say, well, it's not as addictive or immersive for me. I'm able to kind of self-regulate, okay, I've been on this too long. A child doesn't have that. Their brain is like all gas pedal and no breaks. They're just going to want more and more and more.

And so it really is, it's a dangerous time suck. And the other thing is it's not even just the opportunity cost of the time spent, but that actually over time their brain becomes so habituated to this artificially high level of dopamine that the screen provides, they become desensitized to pleasures in the real world. Things like a beautiful sunset or a moment shared together on a walk with a family member that are supposed to give us that real world pleasure are actually, they feel very boring and mundane to a child that's used to the stimulation of a screen. And so it's not just the opportunity cost of time, but it actually is reshaping their desires and affections towards things that I think any parent would say, oh, well, of course I don't want my child to value a screen more than a real life relationship or experience. When I think about being addicted to texting, I'm talking about like T-9 on my little Motorola in, I don't know, seventh grade, eighth grade or something. I remember feeling addicted to that.

And that was so new, like getting a buzz on your phone from a friend and just wanting to be in my room and text. And that wasn't even with all of these games and social media. I couldn't even take pictures with this phone. there wasn't that level of addiction and yet even just the excitement of getting a text message was very addicting to my like 14 year old brain. Yeah. So when we think about that, if people can out there can think the first time you got a phone or the first time you got an iPhone and how exhilarating it was.

Yes. You transfer that to a three year old who as you said is not as developed and is also getting like such exciting and fast-paced content. We're just putting it's too much. it's too much for them to be able to filter out and be able to get away from. Yes, no, exactly. And I think if parents, like, step back and you think about what you really want for your child, in parenting in so many other areas, we have to take the long-term perspective.

So even if the short-term thing is convenient to just hand a child a tablet, the long-term cost of that is that child not developing the kind of self-control and even just ability to entertain themselves, imagination, creativity, ability. ability to focus deeply, to have a longer attention span. All of that is really being undermined every time we hand a child a screen. And so I think it's important for parents that there may be more short-term costs involved. I mean, parenting toddlers, as you know, is challenging. It takes a lot of energy and time as a parent.

And it's a lot harder than handing a child a screen. But we put in that effort because of the long-term benefits we're hoping for in that child. And so it is important. I think to take a longer term view and think, okay, every time I hand a child a screen, I'm answering this question of what I want to be shaping my child's life. I think parents, we want to be the primary influence shaping our children. But every time we hand a screen, it's answering that question for them because the screen is conveying its own message. And I think this is important for parents to understand that it's not just about the content on the screen,

but that the medium is the message that a highly individualized, interactive screen is teaching a child really that their life is just about entertainment, that life is for constant amusement, it's for instant gratification, it's for just their own self-entertainment, and it's really inherently self-focused. And I think, especially as Christian parents, if my primary purpose is to teach my children to love and know God and to love and serve others, the two great commandments, the screen really undermines a parent's ability to do that because the message itself of the technology, not just the content on it, teaches my child that the world revolves around them and it's just for their own pleasure and comfort and entertainment.

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It is the highest quality coffee that you can get. It tastes really good, but the best part about it is that it is really saving lives. The reason it's called seven weeks coffee because at the moment of seven weeks gestation, that baby becomes the size of a little coffee bean. And so I just love that connection. I encourage you to allow your coffee to serve a higher purpose. We drink it in our home and as coffee lovers, I'm telling you for real, it is really good. Go to seven weeks coffee dot com save 15% forever when you subscribe and when you use my code alley you save an extra 10% off your first order go to seven weeks coffee dot com code alley my husband and i um the other day we had a we had our uber driver who was taking us to the airport and such a nice person like a father who clearly

like loves his kids so much and i forget how it even came up but somehow screen time came up and he had a two-year-old than a baby and somehow we mentioned, yeah, like our kids, we don't let them do like, you know, but they don't have daily tablet time or anything like that. And he was shocked. He was, he was like, wow, wow. He couldn't imagine really what it would be like to have a toddler and not give them that kind of screen time. Our kids do sometimes watch TV, but they don't have, you know, the daily tablet time. And so that just made me think, wow, I bet a lot of parents think that way. That this is just, well, obviously we have an iPad for our kids and obviously we give our two-year-olds the iPad and a lot of parents will say, well, they throw a temper tantrum when I don't or I'm trying

to do something else and there's nothing else that will entertain my wild three-year-old. And so the only thing that I can do is give them this game. And they'll say, well, it's educational. They're learning their ABCs and things like that. Have you found in your research that this is kind of a common idea for a lot of lot of parents that it's totally fine and it might even be beneficial. Yes, I hear this a lot. They were like, oh, well, they're playing this educational game or whatever on the tablet. The first thing is that even the most like innocuous apps nowadays often have social media

components hidden in them. Like I've had many parents say, I thought my daughter was just doing this educational game. I had no idea she could friend people on this, that total strangers could message her. So I would really just caution parents, it may not be exactly what it appears, that unfortunately the kind of social media format has really become integrated into a lot of these other apps, even ones designed primarily for younger children who aren't of the age to be on social media. And then the second thing I would just say is that the apps are designed to be more like a game than education. It's all about notifications and rewards that just keeps the child going back for more and more and more. And I think the research has really borne out over time that children

don't learn as well on screens as they do with books and paper. And I have a whole chapter in the book about screens and getting screens out of schools because that's been another challenge for parents. I hear that over and other. We've protected our kids from tablets and smartphones in our own house and then they get to school and this Chromebook or iPad is forced upon them. And then parents can't even install their own software. They have to rely. upon the school, and they're often complaining the school's software's not very good. They're finding their kids getting on to things they wouldn't have wanted them to. And so I think it's important to ask ourselves, our screens, is that really what's best for children's education? I think we've been

kind of sold a myth by the ed tech companies. You know, one laptop per child was going to solve all of our educational inequalities and solve the achievement gaps. And that has not borne out. In fact, academic scores among kids reading math are at their like lowest since the 19th. 1770s. Yeah. And so I think it is important to ask, like, are the screens even being pushed by the schools? Are they accomplishing what we were told they would? And the studies just show kids learn better by reading a book.

They comprehend texts more deeply when they read it on paper instead of on a screen. Kids learn the ABCs better writing them out by hand than typing them. It is kind of crazy because we visited a lot of schools and I was stunned by the fact that almost every school, kindergarten and even pre-k will have their kids, their own Chromebook or their own iPad. Now, in some cases, the kids, at least in kindergarten, they might leave them at the school. But it was like when I would ask about it, the teachers would be like so confused that I would even ask about it. And when I ask other parents, they would say, oh, like, you know, I've never thought about that or it's not that much or maybe it depends on the teacher. And it was, I was just shocked.

I was thinking like, even if it is just 10 minutes a day, like, shouldn't I as the parent be able to have authority over that? Like, what if I don't want that at all? Yeah. And then I think it makes the battle harder at home. Yes. Because the child is like, well, I need this to learn. Right. This is what I do.

Or I'm entertained by this. And the parent just gives in. And as you said, I don't know, it just seems obvious to me that whatever has, helps a child learn and retain information should be the thing that schools do. And we're not talking about public schools. No. I'm talking about, sadly,

a lot of private Christian schools have kind of adopted that same mindset that more technology is going to improve students learning. And so, yeah, it's not just the public school system, unfortunately. Yeah. So let's get to the how, at least for this age group. Sure. For the parent who either, they send their kid to the school that is a great school, but it's got iPads. Yeah. or and or the parent who has a child at home, toddler age, and they've just, you know,

started giving their toddler a little bit of screen time every day. But now they're saying, they're thinking, okay, I don't want to do that anymore. What do they do? Yes. So I walk parents through the exact steps of how to do this. And what I really recommend, which has been told to me by family after family, is just start with a 30-day digital detox. The summer is a great time for this because they don't even have to be on.

the school issued screens. So set aside 30 days and just say, we are going to try this out for 30 days. And 30 days is kind of important because I've had a lot of parents say two weeks in, it was really hard. They were tempted to give up because children actually go through like withdrawal symptoms. Like it's not, I'm not sugarcoating it. Like it is going to be challenging. And especially for parents, like on the front end, you will have to invest more time and energy and attention into helping your kids replace that screen time with real life activities. But parents said they kept going and they made it to 30 days and they couldn't believe the benefits that they saw in their children. Like their nervous systems really were reset.

And so then they were encouraged to actually keep going and do another 30 days. And then a lot of these families just never looked back. They said our kids actually stopped asking for the screens because they formed new habits without them. And so I know it can seem daunting for a parent to think, oh my goodness, we've been doing the tablet every day. How do we all of a sudden go like completely screen free? but I think anyone can commit to doing something for 30 days and trying it out and just tasting the benefits for yourself, I think we'll be incredibly encouraging to just try to keep going for the long term. Now on the school front, I really do encourage parents to push back more. I think, you know,

as parents in a school, like we are the main constituents that we're sending our children here and that for every parent that pushes back, it makes it easier on the other parents. And so just asking, if you can have an exemption for your child. Do they have to complete this assignment on the screen? Can they do it by pen or paper? I will say specifically for kids who struggle with ADHD or autism, they can be much more affected and dysregulated by the screens. And so trying to even ask specifically for exemptions

if that is the case for your family, if you have a child who struggles with any of those conditions, that trying to make sure that the school will honor your decisions as parents trying to help your child accommodate how they learn best. And so I'm not saying it's always easy. But I do think parents can say, like, we don't do screens in our family. We see the effects it has on our children. We don't want them doing their school assignments on a screen.

And it's hard to feel like you're the only one. And there are going to be people who look at you like you're crazy for making a big deal of something. And you're going to have parents, your friends maybe, even say, well, I haven't seen a negative effect. You know, I have a son who's in sixth grade and he's been going to this school since kindergarten. And, you know, look, he's a star football player. And there's no problem. You don't need to worry about it. But I think that's a reason why your book is so important because it's got all of the facts

and all of the studies and they can give this to the administrator or the teacher and they can read it. But it's okay to be the only one. And you might start out the only one. You might not end up being the only one. That's right. I do think like it takes courage as parents. But especially as Christians, like we understand that we're not always going to look like the culture. In fact, often we're going to look countercultural and technology is an important area that I think

we should really be questioning like, are we living just like the world? Like as Christians, we want to live in the world, but not of the world. And just thinking that technology, I think, is an area where we don't want to look like the culture, where we've just given smartphones to our 10-year-olds or tablets to our 2-year-olds because we have a really clear purpose in our parenting. We understand what the purpose of childhood is for. and that really orients us then to understand, okay, the screens are actually undermining this. And yeah, I may be the only one at first. But I will tell you, I think every parent I talk to says,

I just, like, I wish there were other parents. And I'm like, you're all out there. Just talk to each other. Like, if you're complaining about the screens in your own life, then I'm sure other parents are feeling that too. Like, we don't want to do this, but we just didn't want to be the only one. And so I do walk parents through in the book. Like, how do you find other families, like talking to parents in your neighborhood or in your church or at your school because honestly it takes just one other family like if there's one other family you're partnered with in this where your friends your kids have one friend who is also not on the screens and you as a parent have another ally who will help reaffirm you in your convictions to keep going even when you meet points of resistance it's

really powerful and so I do encourage parents like be be the change that you want to see talk to the families that you know and you can really spark a movement and I actually you know, explain some of those in the book that it just took these two moms talking to other moms and then all of a sudden this kind of smartphone-free childhood movement took off. And so I do think, yeah, you don't be afraid to be the only one, but also do talk to other parents. And I think that if you start the conversation, you may find a lot of other parents are eager to join you. This year's Share the Arrows is brought to you by our friends at Good Ranchers. And y'all, it is more needed than ever. We need to worship and to be taught and to be encouraged. And so we've got

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Go to sharetheeroes.com. That's share the arrows.com. I think being on the same page as your spouse is even more powerful than being on the same page as another mom in your kids' class. As long as you and your husband are on the same page, like even if you're not, you can do this and you can be strong. But that is really important. If you are going to take the time to persuade anyone, I would say the first person you need to persuade to have the same level of passion as you is your spouse.

But also, I would say grandparents. Yes. That is a really big one that I hear from a lot of my friends. They'll say, I have these boundaries at my house. But when they go to their grandparents' house, their grandparents, you know, they don't care. And they're just like, oh, it's fine. We did it when we were little, you watch TV or whatever it is. or they just don't have the,

they feel like they don't have the energy to, you know, keep up with the kids. And so that is tough. It is. I actually am so glad you brought up the point about grandparents because I've talked to other parents who say the same thing. It's like we have all these rules and then they go to grandma's house and she lets them do a bunch of iPad games or shows them YouTube videos on her tablet.

And so I do think as parents, like we can actually help educate our parents. Like they are a little bit more removed from some of these things that we are dealing with on a daily basis and saying like, it really helps me, if you back up my parenting, that we're not doing these screens for these reasons. And, like, are there other treats you can offer instead? I don't know. It's so funny. Like, I always went to my grandmother's house and she offered me, like, cookies. Like, it was always like, grandma's going to have some treats. Yeah. And it's like the iPad has become the new,

like, treat that grandparents are offering because I think they almost know, like, oh, your parents aren't letting you do this. Grandma's going to give you something a little extra special. And so just trying to say, like, listen, I do want you to give treats to my kids. But, like, like we're really like screens are really undermining the work that hard work we're doing as parents. Like can we just pick an alternative tree activity? And I know that's hard. I think it can be awkward sometimes talking to your grown parents or your in-laws, but really trying to explain what you're doing. I was even talking to another mom where she feels like she has to have proactive parents with her daughter's friends parents because when she, her daughter goes over to their house, she just wants them to understand what their tech standards are so that they will respect those. even if those aren't the standards they live by in their household, just like, hey, with my daughter, we don't want her looking at phones. Can we not do phones when she goes to your house? And so that does, that takes like putting yourself out there as a parent to be able to have those conversations. But I do think it's important to be proactive in communicating your standards to other people who are in your children's lives. And it can be tough. I actually saw this post the other day on Act that was kind of going viral with all these people commenting on it. Someone said, you know, my kids are staying up my children. sister's house for a couple weeks this summer. And my sister let me know that they have a no iPad

rule in their house and that my kids aren't allowed to bring their iPads. And he was livid about this as a dad. He was like, I can't, this is so cruel. You're saying that you won't spend time with my kids unless they don't have their iPad. And there were a lot of comments agreeing with him saying, these are your rules. These are your kids. This is so cruel of your sister. And I was like, I commented and I was like, Good job for your sister. That's good. Like, I'm glad that she did that. Yes.

Maintaining her boundaries in her house, it'll be good for your kids. But just to reiterate again, a lot of parents are up against a lot. They are. When it comes to trying to protect their children from this kind of technology. Yeah. And part of the problem that you just kind of hit the nail on the head is that the effects are not just individual of the screen. There's a collective aspect to this in the sense that if your kid has access to an iPad,

it means that that kid could easily pull something up on their iPad and show something to your child that you would never want them to see. It also changes the whole social dynamic. If kids are on iPads, then they're not interacting with the other kids that are there. And so we've seen this. There are these network effects of social media and smartphones where even if a few kids are on the screens, it affects these social environment and social dynamics for everybody. And so that's also why I'm both a parent, but I also do work in public policy because I want us to help pass better laws that will back parents up, that there are collective aspects to these problems as well. But those can be mediated

by just talking to other parents and trying to create your own communities where you're all opting out together, like schools and churches are really powerful places to find that if you can. Why do you think that so many parents, and I completely relate to this impulse, by the way, but like why do you think so many parents feel like, oh my gosh, I'm so overstimulated, I can't function without my child being pacified, at least for a period of time with this iPad. When obviously when we grew up, we didn't have that. Like, is it because we don't let our kids outside as much as we used to? We feel like our neighborhoods aren't as safe?

Like, is it just because we are overstimulated with our technology? So we're more irritable? Is it because we're busier? Maybe it's all of the above. But it just feels like I hear a lot of parents saying, I'm overstimulated. I'm stressed out. It's almost like a relief for the parents more than it is for the kids. Yeah, no, it is.

And I feel like you're right. Like in my mind, I'm like, it is all the above. I do think parents are overwhelmed. I think that technology has both been like a blessing and a curse in the sense. I do think that parents now, we're doing so many more things than my mom was doing when she was raising me because it's possible to be connected online on a laptop, to be working from home, to be doing all these different things at once. We have so many things pulling on our attention.

And I do think our own smartphone use, like as parents really is a large reason why screens do get handed to kids. You're like, hold on, I need to respond to this email. Just watch this iPad tablet show so that I can like get this thing done. And so I do in the book address that like our own technology use as parents is really important. We want to be exemplifying for our children what is most important. And I think every time that we're looking at a screen, instead of talking to them, we're communicating that our phone is more important than they are. And I mean, I most of all, like, I want my children to value people more than they value phones.

And so how do I do that? It's really by modeling it for them. And I do think parents disconnecting from their own devices then makes it easier to resist handing them to our kids. And sadly, I do think the iPad has become the new pacifier. Like, it just becomes a really easy crutch for parents. And so it's something I talk about in my book when you do this detox, like literally physically get rid of all the screens in your house. Like don't keep them around. Box them up and bring them to a shed, like leave them somewhere outside of your house because like when you go on a diet, you don't keep a stash of junk food hidden in the pantry so that in a moment of weakness you can just go binge.

You get that food out of your house and it's the same with screens. If it's around, I found this as a parent. Like we initially had a smart TV when my toddler was like two years old. I felt tempted to put it on for him. He wasn't even asking for it, but I'm like, I'm trying to get dinner ready. Like, this will be so easy to just have him watching the screen. And so I do think there's a powerful pull on us as parents where it just becomes such an easy thing to opt for. And so just actually eliminating screens from your house or moving them to inconvenient locations.

I've had so many families say, our TV is now down in our basement. It's not in our central living area so that it's not such a visual reminder all the time of something that's so easy to just put on. And I think it's the same with tablets. Just trying to eliminate screens from your house will just make it easier to not give in in a moment of parenting weakness where you're like, it's 5 o'clock, I'm tired, where's my husband, I'm trying to get dinner ready. All three kids are screaming at me.

I mean, that is a moment of parenting weakness where handing an iPad feels like a really easy solution. Yeah. Yeah. So I know that she said that bigger screens are better than smaller screens. So TV, you know, watching with siblings is better than individually playing. but it does sound like you're also saying, okay, when it's 5.30 and you're cooking dinner and everyone is crazy that it's not the best thing to do to turn on the TV. Yeah, it's not. And I think what should

parents do? Yeah. And I think part of that is anything that's like a daily habit, like if it's screen time is always 530 when mom's getting dinner ready, that still is really powerfully habit forming. And so one of the principles I talk about in the book is that in these families that have really tried to opt out and go through a low-tech lifestyle, any screen entertainment that they're doing is very sparing and it's shared. So the shared part is like watching it together, but it's sparing. It looks like Friday night movie nights or Saturday morning a nature documentary while mom and dad have a little bit of a slower morning and enjoy their coffee together. But it's not something that's like a daily habit or occurrence where the kids come to expect it and crave it, really.

That habit formation is so powerful at these young ages. And so, and it's also, it's the opportunity cost, like, thinking to yourself, what could my kids do instead of putting on a show? And it does take creativity. I mean, my kids end up doing Play-Doh often at the kitchen table, which gets everywhere. I was talking about this with a mom the other day. I think if you are trying to be a low-tech home, it means embracing a little bit of a life of chaos and mess. It's not always as convenient to me as a mom to say, okay, I'm going to let my kids go. wild with Play-Doh, because I'm going to have to help them clean that mess up afterwards. But then the relationships that form through them playing with their Play-Doh creations, the creativity that emerges, it just makes it so much so worth it. And so I think then that reinforces for me, like I'm glad we're not opting for daily screens because this is what they would miss out on if we were. And would you say the right amount of tablet time is zero? So even if someone says, we only do tablets when we're flying.

We only do tablets for like a couple hours every two weeks or something like that. You would say it's better to have zero minutes. I would. And I realize that's a strong stance. And so I also just want to recognize like that is where I'm at because of my research. But I also give parents stepping stones to getting there in my book, recognizing that you may not go to that extreme yet. Though I think like there are other time as you see these benefits. I think you may migrate towards that extreme.

I would say like with travel, I'm not anti-screens during travel, but again, are you opting for a passive screen, like letting them watch a movie on the plane? Or is it something that's individualized and very interactive and very addictive? So there's really there's a lot of differences. And then even the content you're picking, a lot of the modern kids shows like Cocoa Mellon are like super stimulating. Bright, flashing colors, a lot of frames per second. It's a lot more addicting than a slower moving old movie like. Mary Poppins or Sound of Music. So I try to talk through those kind of content choices as well because you do want to opt for things that are going to be less stimulating to a child's nervous

system. When we realized I didn't know, you know, I remember learning about like the frame rate and how the frame rate is so fast with Coca-Mellon and I, you know, didn't know that. But once we learned that, we were like, okay, no more. And plus, it really is not like an edifying educational show anyway. So it wasn't like ever a centerpiece in our family's life. But then we were like a lot more intentional about what TV we did allow them to watch. Because it's not just about, okay, we obviously don't want woke themes and, you know, all of that. But it's also about the how. And like you said, the medium is the message. Yeah. So there's just so much to think about that it almost is easier to just say, okay, we're only going to have screens in this context. Otherwise, you're constantly,

monitoring and it's a lot of work. Yeah. And I would say too, like with a long airplane ride, try to like make the screen the last resort. I feel like I see a lot of families get on the plane and like in two seconds the screen is out and you're like, this child is going to be doing screens like this entire flight. Whereas you know, try the coloring book first or a story or other activities where it's like that screen becomes the very like last resort when you're like, okay, our kids now need to make it through the last like 30 minutes of this flight. We will let them watch a show. A quick story on cocoa melon that I think is just fascinating. There was this article in the New York Times that was talking about how the episodes are designed. And they actually

have children that they're testing the shows on, sit and watch the episode. And then next to the screen with Cocoa Mellon is a screen they called the Real Life Atron that shows scenes from real life, like a mom cooking dinner, a dad vacuuming. And any time the child looked away from Cocoa Mellon and found the real life scene more interesting, the episode makers would note that down, where that timestamp was in the show, and then they'd go back, and they'd add more music, brighter lights,

flashing colors to that point in the show because they wanted to be immersive and addictive to a child. They don't want the child looking away from the screen to what's going on in the real life next to them. And so I do think it's worth just, yes, as parents, like really thinking critically about the kinds of content we're letting our children take in when we do have those sparing moments of screen time.

Wow. That is so fascinating about cocoa melon. And who would sign their kid up to be like the subject testing for the cocoa melon? I know. Navigating the mortgage world right now, buying a house, trying to refinance your home, it is really confusing. It's overwhelming with rising prices, so many options. It's hard to know which direction to go in, what to do. and it's really hard to know who to trust.

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Yeah. And the parent says, okay, but this is so much of a part like it's so much of a part of my child's life. I trust my child. They're a good girl. And all of their friends are on social media. They're texting. All of their friends. This is how they stay in the loop. This is how they build those relationships. And we've got rules around the iPhone. So it's fine. But maybe they're starting to hear this and they're thinking, that I give it too early. Is it possible for that parent to take the iPhone away from their teenager? It is possible.

I know that that sounds shocking to parents because they're like, but how they've had it for three years? They're 15. They're going to leave for college in three years. Like, it's too late. It is not too late. I've actually spoken with parents who had teenagers who had a phone and took it away. And they weren't saying it was the easiest thing to do,

but that it was the best thing for their child. And I think that's what we have to keep in mind, that making these changes doesn't always mean it's going to be the easiest path, but it is going to be the best for their long-term flourishing. And what I would say to a parent is, I hear from a lot of parents, well, we're giving them a smartphone, but they won't have social media on it.

Any child safety expert will tell you that is not true. There are thousands of portals to the internet in a smartphone. every app has its own in-app browser, which I don't think a lot of parents are aware of, so its own portal to the internet. Often third-party parental controls or filters that you install cannot block what's happening on the in-app browser. And so I talk about this in the book, but a child can actually get to Pornhub inside of Snapchat in just five clicks.

They never leave the app. A parent would have no idea because Snapchat blocks all external controls. And so to a parent, if they have any software set up, it just looks like their child is spending a lot of time inside of Snapchat. But the parent has no oversight or insights into what the child is doing or seeing. And so I've just heard from parent after parent, like parental controls are a myth. The best they can do is just tell you where your child is spending their time, not what they're doing. And if you just think back to the tech company side of this, they don't want parents involved and knowing what's going on in these platforms. So there is no parental consent required whatsoever for a child to make a social media account.

There is no parental consent required whatsoever for a child to access the app store or to download any app. And so one study found that one in four, nine to 12 year old boys have been on an online dating app. Oh my goodness. Which is horrifying. I mean like hinge or Tinder or Bumble because this mom was saying that is the most recommended apps. Like she went in her son's 12-year-old app store and she said, even though she had the app store configured to show him only apps appropriate for a 12-year-old, it still said that your top-rated apps are hinge, Tinder, TikTok, and Bumble.

And so it's no surprise then if there's no parental consent involved to download that app and these are advertised to children in the app stores that it's not shocking that this many children would be on it. And so I just try to explain to parents it is impossible to effectively lock down a smartphone. When you hand a child a smartphone, you are inviting the entire world into the task of raising that child with you. People who do not share your worldview, there's just so much potential. And they don't care about the interest or the safety of your child at all. And there are predators.

I mean, they have recognized that social media is an easy way to access children. It's really sad. But it is too easy for predators to reach them. It is too easy for inappropriate, violent content, pornography to reach your child on a smart. smartphone device. And I feel for parents because I feel like the tech companies have sold them this myth. Just enable our parental controls and your kid will be fine. And they're just, it's sadly not true. Kids are not protected on these things. Okay, listen to this. I haven't talked about this story yet. And I've been meaning to because I spoke with the legislator who is trying to push this legislation

in the state of Texas. So the Wall Street Journal, this is the exclusive. Tim Cook called Texas governor, Greg Abbott, to stop online child safety legislation. So let me read a little bit from this article. Apple step-up efforts in recent weeks to fight Texas legislation that would require the iPhone maker to verify ages of device users, even drafting chief executive Tim Cook into the fight. That is how little they want to verify the ages of those using the app. The CEO called Greg Abbott to ask for changes to the legislation or failing that for a veto. Okay. So he's saying, we want you to veto this all together. In the weeks leading up to its

passage, the bill's passage, Apple hired more lobbyists to pressure lawmakers and interest group if funds targeted the Austin, Texas area with ads saying that legislation is, quote, backed by porn websites, which is not actually true. It's not. Texas would be the largest state to adopt this app store accountability law. And you could probably explain it. better than I could because right now these apps, as you're saying, they say that, oh, you know, this is only for adults or this is for kids under the age of 17. But then you get on these apps and some of these apps have like how to suicide guides. They've got pornography for children. And so this legislation is trying to say that these kinds of apps should not even be available

to users that you know are minors. Absolutely. And Apple will say no. Yeah, no. This is crazy. I'm so glad you brought this story up. So I've been involved with some of these laws. So Utah has passed the App Store Accountability Act law. Now Texas has, which is amazing. Texas is the largest state to have it. And a coalition of child safety experts have been working on these bills because of the gap I just mentioned that a child can just access the app store without a parent's consent and they can download literally any app. Apps rated as 17 plus, like adult apps, like only fans. And so this law would actually put parents back in the driver's seat to say a parent is going to be the right authority over whether a child gets a certain app or not. And so its parental consent would be required for each app download under this law.

And yes, the devices like Apple, those companies, would be responsible for verifying a user's age and if they are a minor, ensuring they obtain parental consent before they just have unfettered access to the app store or downloading any of these apps. So it's an amazing solution. I'm very excited. And why wouldn't Apple want that? Just because it's more work, it would cost them money. Why wouldn't they just say, you know what, this is probably worth it? Even just PR-wise, this is worth it.

It's because at the end of the day, they're a for-profit business. And teenagers make up a huge percentage of their business. And they know that if parents are in the driver's seat, they are going to really curtail the kinds of apps kids are accessing. And the thing is Apple makes a commission. Every time an app is sold in the app store, it gets 30% of that. sale. 30%. 30%. I did not realize it was that high. And so Apple has a vested interest. They want their apps to be downloaded, purchased by kids willy-nilly. They don't want parents to be in the driver's seat. And they also recognize the younger they get a child interested in their app store and their

apps. There are ads in the app stores, like a lot of their business model is advertising. So the more time and attention that a child is spending in their app store, the better for their business. And so of course, anything that would threaten their bottom line, they're going to stand up to. So it's, it's shocking that he actually called the governor, Tim Cook did, but like, over this. It just speaks to how important this is to their business model. Yeah. Wow. So that's just to emphasize the point that parents, there is so much when you let your child have an iPhone, even if you say, I'm not going to let them download these apps. There is so much working against you. It's not just, well, yeah, it might naturally lead to temptation, but a lot of things lead to

temptation. No, no, no. This is a concerted effort by the most powerful people in the world to ensure that your child has access to pornography, to suicidal content, and to content that will ruin their lives and make their brains mush. Yes. No, it's true. They don't care about protecting children. I mean, parents care, but the tech companies don't. And that is like the biggest lie, that they want you to use their products, just put the parental controls in place. If they really wanted parents to have control, then they would be rejoicing at the passage of this app store law that would let parents consent. They wouldn't even need a law. They would have done it themselves. And so you just, you can't take them out their word, unfortunately. They are not, their interests are not aligned with

children's interests and they're not aligned with parents' interests. Yeah. And for teenagers, because we're still kind of talking about the why behind taking away the phone from the teen and ensuring they don't have an iPhone and especially don't have social media and all that stuff, it has an effect on self-esteem, it still has an effect on emotional regulation. Because as you said, that prefrontal cortex still is not developed, they can still get addicted to it. I saw a woman the other day, she was very brave because now she is phone-free and she's like maybe 20 years old. But she said that she doesn't remember five years of her life. Because for five years of her life, she spent six to 10 hours a day, and this included COVID and everything as a child looking at

TikTok and looking at Instagram. And she spent six to ten hours a day. And she spent, you know, and she spent, she thankfully, like, snapped out of it and realized I don't want my life to be that. I want to remember life. Yeah, I want to have memories. Yes. I mean, there are times certainly where I've been texting or I've been looking at something and I look up and, you know, five minutes is past. I don't even know what happened. I didn't even realize. And if that's true for us, it's true for kids. And that amounts, even if it's 10 minutes every day, which it's never for kids. By the way, they're using iPhones for hours and hours a day. Yeah. We're talking months of their life that is being wasted and cannot be brought back. You get one childhood. You do. You get one childhood.

And I'm so glad you brought that up. I mean, that really is the question is like, what do we want our kids' memories, their childhood memories, to be filled with? And something else, like these kids are more connected than ever on the smartphones, but we have this epidemic of loneliness and mental health crisis among teens. And something I found so interesting in my research was that they're getting dopamine on the phones. They're not getting oxytocin. So oxytoin, so oxyms. Acetocin is a hormone that is released when we are in person with someone else. I contact physical touch. It's what bonds a mom to her baby.

It bonds husband and wife. It bonds friends. The kids, you don't get oxytocin through a screen. And so they're not actually forming deep friendships. It's all these shallow connections based on metrics like likes and followers. And so even if they're connected, they are incredibly lonely. They don't have real friendships. And so when you take that smartphone away, getting back to your original question,

that is it possible to take a 15 year old's phone away it is and what you do is you help that child then reenter the real world that they can then form real friendships and not be on their device and families who have done this they are just saying they say that they wish they had just done it sooner because i'm not saying it's not going to be initially hard there is going to be a period of withdrawal but you have to just intentionally then fill their lives with real world things and especially with a teenager i heard from parent after a parent if you take away the phone which is this immense kind of privilege of giving them all this freedom in the virtual world. If you restrict that virtual freedom as you should, you need to give them more freedom

in the real world. Freedoms that will actually help them progress towards adulthood and take on more real world responsibilities. This was like my favorite chapter of the book to write, which was trading screens for real world responsibilities. And just what these families then filled childhood with helping kids take on adult-like tours around the house, becoming responsible for doing the grocery shopping. and making a meal for the family,

and then turning that outward even into service to others in their communities. And it's just what's amazing is that service to others in your family and your community is an amazing antidote to anxiety. They're like, our kids weren't anxious anymore because they weren't focused on themselves and how many likes or followers they had. They were serving their family, serving other people. And so even if you only have three years left with your child before they go to college, those are three years that you can fill with real world.

memories and you can help them reform their habits for the habits that you'd want them to have when they enter adult life. And so it is. It's never too late to reverse course and try to help your child develop the skills that you want them to have as an adult. And they might be angry. Oh, yes. I mean teens, yes. Teens are going to be angry. Yes. Yes. And they might be angry, but you're still their parent. Yes. You're still their parent. That's right. And they are under your roof and they can follow your rules. And as you said, it might not be easy, but you go through that detox period. And it might be hard because all of their friends have phones. And as you said, though, this is a good opportunity to teach them. Well, we're not like everyone else. And you don't have to

live like the world. And this is better for you. I'm giving you a like up, actually, compared to a lot of your peers. Let me end on our final sponsor. And that is Faith Under Siege. So This is a documentary about the persecution of Christians, and this is specifically about the persecution of Christians happening in Ukraine. Russia is expanding their occupation in this area, and reportedly there are evangelical believers there who are enduring the seizing of churches, tortured pastors, abducted children. They are struggling to keep their faith alive in secret. They need our support. They need our knowledge. They need us to know what's really going on. This documentary has has gained exposure at the museum of the Bible.

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And I mean, that's going to have the biggest change or biggest impact on your child's life. Yeah. But where does the law come in? Oh, thank you for asking. I think it's a really important question. And I often get this response, oh, well, we don't need better laws. Like, just leave it up to parents.

And I have tried to explain it's actually, it's a both and. Yes, parents are always ultimately responsible. They are on the front lines to protect their children. But there are aspects to these harms that are collective in nature that individual parents cannot fight on their own. So one of the biggest laws I've worked on is laws to restrict online pornography website so that you have to be over the age of 18 to access a pornography website. This is an example of a law that really helps to back parents up because I as a parent could install all the filters on our home computer. I could shut everything down.

They don't have a smartphone. They don't have social media. But if they can go to school and their friend on a smartphone can easily just pull up Pornhub and stick it in my child's face, now that's a collective problem. And so why should it only be on parents to protect kids from pornography websites? Why is it not on the pornography websites to make sure they're age-restricting their content so that minors aren't accessing that? And now those laws have passed in 23 states. The state of Texas has one. I've been very involved in because it's being decided by the Supreme Court.

Like any day now, the case Free Speech Coalition versus Paxton, which will rule on the merits of whether or not that law is constitutional. Are you hopeful? Oh, I am hopeful. I was actually in the courtroom for oral arguments. And I was mainly encouraged that the justices seem to understand that in the smartphone social media era, the idea that filters are a more effective, less restrictive means of protecting children from online pornography just has not been true. That filters have been largely ineffective and putting it on individual parents with filters is not a sufficient solution. So regardless of exactly how they come down, they may not rule on the merits of the law, but send it back down to the Fifth Circuit to be reviewed under a different legal. standard. I am confident that they are going to ultimately get to the right outcome, which is saying

that states have to be able to legislate in this area because parents on the front lines do need backup. That it is, it's not enough to leave it up to parents. And just speaking of it as a justice issue, I believe that all children deserve to be protected from pornography, not just children who come from families with like very involved parents. But I care about the children that may have parents that aren't as attuned to what's going on on the social media websites and the online platforms. And so I think there's an important role for the law to play when we recognize that something is so harmful for childhood, we don't just leave it up to individual parents. Like we haven't let the decision on whether or not a minor can buy tobacco or alcohol up

to individual parents. We've set an age for that to be 21. And I think it needs to be the same with online pornography or social media, that there's collective solutions that the law has a role to play in backing parents up and also ensuring that all America's children are protected. Absolutely. And so what can we do in that policy realm, just as parents, in addition to what we're doing in our own home and trying to, I say, raise a respectful ruckus in our communities and in our schools, what can we do to make sure there are these legal protections where we live? live. I just really encourage parents to raise their voices to make their opinions known to their legislators, to their lawmakers, especially at the local level. Talk to your school board members.

School boards are very influential in terms of the types of policies that are happening during the school day. A lot of parents have very successfully advocated for getting phones banned from the entire school day from bell to bell. We see more and more school districts and states adopting these policies that are having huge benefits for kids, protecting both. both the learning and social environment of the school day. Because maybe you can't impose that all parents don't give their kids' smartphones and social media, but you can at least protect the school day. So I think just starting with your local school board members,

but then also talking to your state legislators. As we just mentioned, there are a lot that states can do in this area, like age-restricting pornography websites, requiring parental consent for app stores or requiring parental consent to get a social media account. And then even at the federal level, like call your senator, call your representative and tell them that you care about these issues. Because what I often hear from members who are working on these issues is that the big tech lobby is so loud and so powerful that it's really difficult for these legislators to kind of hold their ground. And so if parents, their constituents are calling them and saying that this matters to them, that this is important, they will take that seriously. And it can help them stand up to just the army that big tech just descends on these,

on these legislators. Yes, because lobbyists do have power. But at the end of the day, every person who is running for re-election, whether it's now or later, like they want to be reelected. And they're not getting voted for by the lobbyists. That matters to a degree. But at the end of the day, they want to get reelected. And the voters are going to reelect them.

So in the state of Texas, for example, we need to be, you need to be. calling Governor Abbott's office, but even calling your legislators to ensure that they know that you support them and that you don't want this bill to be vetoed. I think that's important too. No, it truly is. And I'll just say this. Like parents, when we band together and raise our voices really can make change happen. You know, I'm sure you're familiar with mothers against drunk drivers. Mad is like a very powerful example of how moms who are upset about their kids getting harmed by drunk drivers banded together. And it was immensely powerful within years. They had the national drinking age raised to 21 and then also had different laws passed in the state level.

And it just took parents coming together. And so I think we need a similar movement of parents when it comes to social media and smartphones. Absolutely. Well, Claire, thank you so much. The tech exit, a practical guide to freeing kids and teens from smartphones. I just really encourage everyone to arm themselves with this book, not only for your personal use, but when you're calling your legislator, when you're getting a meeting with him or her, when you're talking to the teacher, to the administrator with fellow parents, you're not just going to be able to say, well, I feel this way. You're going to say, no, this is what the facts say.

That's right. And this can actually work, by the way. It's not just some hypothetical scenario where some people somewhere could maybe one day take their phones away from their kids. It's really worked for families, and it can work for your family too. Claire, thank you so much. I really appreciate it. Yeah, thank you for having me.