Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 122 | Josh Buice

Episode Date: June 7, 2019

Pastor Josh Buice and Gender Complementarianism vs. Egalitarianism and why this is a current sticking point in the Southern Baptist Church. Copyright Blaze Media All Rights Reserved.

Hey guys, happy Friday. Welcome to Relatable. Hope everyone had a wonderful week and that you are looking forward to the weekend. So we are going to talk to Pastor Josh Bice today, the founding director of G3 conferences. There has been a point of contention going on within the Southern Baptist Convention. That's the convention that I have been a part of. My entire life, the churches that I've gone to in general have been a part of the Southern Baptist denomination. And it is a centering the role of women in the church. Now, I have already recorded the episode that I'm going to do this summer on women in the church that's to be released after maternity leave. And so if you are wondering what all the Bible says about women's role in the church and my perspective on that based on the word of God, you can just wait just a few weeks, maybe even just a couple more weeks to hear that. But today I wanted to get his insight. He has been very vocal on this issue from the side of complementarianism versus the other side, which is egalitarianism. And I wanted to see if he could give us some clarity on this extremely hot button issue. Josh, thanks so much for joining me.

Glad to be with you. Yes. Okay, if you could tell everyone who may not know who you are and what you do. Sure. My name is Josh. I serve as a pastor just west of Atlanta, Georgia. have the privilege to serve a 177-year-old Baptist congregation. Wow. Interestingly enough, my wife and I both grew up here as children. We met in the context of our church. I went away to Southern Seminary, pastored out of state for about seven years,

and then in God's kind providence, I was called back home to serve the very people who served us as children. Awesome. Do you mind me asking where in Georgia you are? I lived in Georgia for a little bit. Yeah, so take I-20 straight out west from the city, just past six flags, and you run right through the heart of Douglas County, and that's where we are. Gotcha. Cool. My husband and I met in Athens,

Georgia, and his family is from a small town in Georgia, and so I'm very familiar with the area. So, as you know, there's a lot going on with the SBC right now. I was raised a Southern Baptist and a Southern Baptist church, and I am very thankful for that, but there has been some contention for a while, but I would say it seems like it's kind of blown up on social media for the past couple weeks. And it's centered on this issue of complementarianism versus egalitarianism. Now, some people listening to this might not even know what I mean by that. So could you kind of break down what we may call for lack of a better word, the controversy that's going on right now? Yeah, sure. So I think it would be helpful probably just to talk about definitions. So complementarianism

and egalitarianism are two different positions, opposing positions. Opposing positions. basically complementarianism was a term that was brought about as a response to the feminist movement back in the 60s and 70s and complementarianism basically teaches that both men and women are created equal in personhood both in their value or their worth and their dignity and so both men and women have the same percentage or the same amount of the image of God upon him. The distinction would be this. Complementarians believe that there is a distinction that God has for both men and women in culture, in the home, and the church. So, in other words, there are roles and responsibilities that are very distinct for women that are different than the

roles and responsibilities that God has designed for men to carry out. And so that would be what we would call complementarianism. Egalitarianism would be the idea that we could agree on would be that both men and women are created equal with, from or by God, with both dignity and value, the worth of both men and women are the same. Right. But distinction would be simply this. The egalitarian would say that there is no distinction.

there is no difference of role and responsibility for the man and the woman in the culture at large or the home or the church. And so that's where you would get the idea of a woman serving as a pastor in various different evangelical circles. Right. So where, if you know, where do egalitarians, Christian egalitarians get their scriptural basis because you and I agree on the fact that the Bible. is pretty clear. In the context of the family and the context of the church, there are simply different

roles for men and women. It's not a degrading role for women and an honorable role for a man. They're honorable roles that are just different. So what do you think is behind this egalitarian push to say, no, no, no, different is inherently worse. And so women have to serve in the same way that men do. Where is that coming from? Well, I think it would be helpful to recognize that this is not a new movement. This is not something that was birthed in the last couple of years. And it certainly isn't something that just comes from the feminist movement or the radical feminist movement of, say, the 60s and the 70s. This is a movement that was birthed in the Garden of Eden. So when you see Eve usurping the authority of her husband when she was tempted by Satan in the

garden, what you see is the very first role reversal. So everything that you see coming out of the fall in the Garden of Eden, the very curse that we see, according to Romans 512, is really the product of this first role reversal. So this is not something new. This is something that's been happening. It's an ancient problem that we've been dealing with as far as the differences between male and female since the very beginning, since the very curse that took place in the fall. So what we're seeing now is that we're seeing in this present controversy, within the evangelical circles, we're seeing really this coming out of this recent Me Too movement in the abuse of women. I think everyone can agree on the fact that for women to be abused or to be

harmed or to be degraded in any way as far as their value and worth and dignity is sinful. And we should all stand against that. But the idea that simply because women have been abused or because women have been somehow discriminated against in certain cultures, that we must now empower women to the highest roles and responsibilities, both in the home, the church, and in culture, or even denominational settings, I think is to just miss the mark. I think we can call out sin and deal with sin in different ways as far as the issues related to the oppression of women or the injustices surrounding women without bypassing God's blueprint for what men and women are to carry out in those different spheres.

Yeah. And Baptists kind of had this conversation a few decades ago, right? I mean, Baptists were kind of having a similar controversy just about liberal theology in general. And then we made a correct turn, which has really helped the Baptist Church thrive. The Southern Baptist Church thrive for a while. And I think that you nailed it when you said, okay, there's been a lot of things that have happened culturally and politically. I would even say

for some people, the election of Donald Trump erupted this desire in some Christian women to say, okay, any form of, you know, saying that a woman has to be in a particular role is misogyny or saying that a woman can't exercise authority over a man as First Timothy 212 says, well, that's some form of sexism. So it's been interesting to see people that I would have thought believed in the supremacy of scripture because of cultural changes, all of the sudden, it seems like take a completely different approach to what scripture actually says. What do you think about that? I think you're spot on, Allie, and I think that one of the problems with that is you talk about the supremacy of scripture back in the day when we had this controversy related to liberal

theology, we went through this period of time, this movement called the conservative resurgence. Back during that time period, you had individuals. like the associate dean of the School of Theology at Southern Seminary. Her name was Molly Marshall, and she was actually teaching things such as post-mortem salvation opportunities. I mean, there was all sorts of problems. She was an ordained minister and all of this. But we moved through that controversy, and we come to this present situation. And I think that there have been pastors and others who have rightly stated this before. They have stated, we might have won the battle on inerrancy, but we're losing the battle on sufficiency. And so when it comes to this issue of how

we're going to treat women, we want everyone in the culture to say that the Southern Baptist Convention loves women and that we want women to flourish and use their gifts for the glory of God. That's certainly true. But the problem is we are also, if we're just going to be really honest, the Southern Baptist Convention as well as many other evangelical circles have become slaves to pragmatism. So in other words, if it works, then let's do it. And so if empowering women to certain roles of authority makes the culture at large view us as as valuing women, then maybe we're going to do that. And so that's problematic when it comes to using certain methods to gain the eye of approval or to attract the culture at large. That's certainly problematic. I think that

there's been a big push within Christianity away from, in an attempt to push themselves away from the title of evangelical as a group that is associated with Trump, they have said, well, I'm going to be the opposite of that, which means I'm going to be woke, which means instead of partnering with fellow Christians on which I have political disagreements with, I am going to partner with people that I agree with politically, but that I have complete disagreements with theologically. And because of that partnership, I think we see a lot of people saying, well, these political issues are more important to me than these, than theological inerrancy or theological sufficiency. And so that's where we've kind of seen a lot of compromise.

Now, just so everyone is perfectly clear, who is listening to this, what does the Bible say specifically about a woman's role in the church and what should that look like? Well, first and foremost, God has a huge plan and a massive blueprint. for women to be useful in the life of the church. So this idea that complementarians that we somehow degrade women or that we don't see value for women in the local churches simply to miss the mark, that's to misrepresent where we stand. In other words, I would say it like this, that if we did not have faithful women doing exactly what God has called them to do in the life of the church, our churches would fall apart. I mean, they would be very unhealthy.

So when we read like 1 Timothy 212, you cited a moment ago. It just simply states that God's plan is not for women to teach or to have authority over men. And I would say that by definition, if you're going to preach the word of God, that you're to handle the word of God with authority. So the herald goes forth with the authority of the one that he's representing or that she's representing. So if you're going to stand with the open Bible and preach the Bible, you can't say, I'm coming under the authority of the elders, but now I'm going to ask you to open the Bible, and I'm going to now preach the word. You have to preach the Bible with authority. It just comes with the territory.

So the idea is that women from the beginning were created to be a helper, to be, we see that with Adam, that Eve was created to be a helper. We go through the life of the church, and we don't see that God is calling women to be, apostles. We don't see that God is calling women to be elders, but what we see is that God is absolutely calling women to be those who have their influence in the home, those who put their affection on the home, to be keepers at home to use a biblical phrase. But then also we go to Titus chapter two, and we see that women are to be disciplining, making disciples, training the younger, investing in children, serving in various capacities. She's simply

not called to the office of elder, and she's not called to preach the word to a mixed audience or to preach the Sunday sermon within the context of the local church. And I would actually say, even in the context of a Christian conference as well. So that's what I would have a question on. And I think a lot of people listening probably have a question on that too. You know, I went to, before I even thought about this issue, honestly, when I was somewhat of a new Christian in college, I went to the passion conferences where you hear from people like John Piper, you also hear from Beth Moore, Christine Kane. Again, I was kind of even oblivious at that point to any discussion of whether or not this is biblical. But there are a lot of Bible believing, even complementarians

who would say, look, 1 Timothy 212 is in the context of the local church. And that does not extend to Christian conferences. But as you said, you don't preach the word of God without authority. So I guess I'm just asking for more clarity and insight into that because there are people that I respect who are complementarians who would say, you know what, in the context of a conference, it's fine. They're not exercising authority and setting the doctrine for a local church. Yeah. Well, I think, again, within the world of complementarianism, you do have a couple of different categories. And even within those categories, you're going to have differing levels and differing positions. You have what's called. soft complementarianism, and that would be the idea that would allow for women to use their gifts of teaching and preaching, that sort of thing, in the context of a mixed audience, like a Sunday school class, a small group Bible study that's sanctioned by or organized officially by the local church, or even on a Sunday morning, so long as she doesn't have, or occupy, you might say,

the office of elder so long she hasn't been ordained to the office of elder. But then you have what we might call the hard complementarianism. And that's the idea that I would actually hold to that would state that if you're going to allow a woman to preach the Bible to a mixed audience or even in the pulpit on a Sunday morning on occasion, so long as she doesn't occupy that office of elder, then I would say it seems to be a bit inconsistent. I mean, it seems to be a bit inconsistent. I mean, it seems to be that you're saying to her, you can exercise your gifts occasionally, but you can't do that on a week-to-week basis and be called pastor. And so I think that that's certainly an inconsistency among the more soft complementarians. But again, back to the biblical text, I would say, you can't

preach the Bible without preaching it with authority. So we must say, thus says the Lord God, we must open the word, we must preach the imperatives and call people to respond to God. And so that would involve preaching the Bible with authority. And so that's why I don't embrace that more soft position. And something like the Passion Conference, would you say there is an opening there for saying that the women who are teaching are teaching essentially children because they're, you know, they're college students now. They are 20-something.

So I guess it depends on kind of where you draw the line for adult men. but would you say there's an opening there for someone like a Bethmore or a Christian woman? I know you might, you know, we have other maybe theological differences with Bethmore, but just the female part of it. Do you think there is an opportunity there for her to kind of shepherd young people as more of like a spiritual mother or no? No, I wouldn't say so. I think that we have to draw a line someplace. And I think that even with passion, you're going to have young men and young women who are there.

Let's just be honest. Those are young men and young women. They're college students. And in our American culture, we like to have this delay of manhood and womanhood. But I would say those are young men and young women. And furthermore, you have the organizers of the event. You have lots of adults who are in that room, thousands of them. And so I think that it would just be very good to say, we need to hold a position that states that, you know, we're not going to have women preaching to thousands of them. of young men in a context like a conference setting. But I do think that there is room for her to serve in a conference. I think there's room for her to stand and preach to hundreds of women. All you have to do is you just simply have to organize it and then advertise it as such. Okay, gotcha. So I do think that, like I was saying, there's probably disagreement among complementarians. I wonder if there wouldn't even be people who consider themselves like you, like a hard complementarian who doesn't believe that a woman should be preaching on Sunday morning, but who take the First Timothy passage is saying, okay, this is in the context of the local church

and doesn't extend to, doesn't extend to conferences. I think that would be a really interesting conversation to have. And I do want to say that I think it's possible for two Bible believing Christians to have that, that kind of differentiation behind what they believe. Now, the bigger that this conversation gets, the bigger that the scope of complementarianism gets to where it's, essentially saying, no, men and women have the exact same roles no matter what. I think that is, obviously, we agree there, where we weighed into particularly dangerous territory. So tell me how we properly and in a Christ-like way engage with those who disagree so passionately with us about this subject, because it's not just a political issue. It's a much bigger issue than that,

I would say. Yeah, I mean, that's a really good question, Ellie. I think that sometimes, in social media. And so you, you spend time in the social media world and you're online in various different areas as far as YouTube or wherever else. I think it's oftentimes difficult to, you might say, to show these differences or engage in these differences or maybe even respond to these differences through, say, a tweet or even a Facebook post or something of that nature. So we have to be very cautious, I think, in how we do it. I would say that with a public figure, because I'm oftentimes, even on my blog that I write, if I write an article that addresses these issues that someone holds, such as a Beth Moore,

for instance, I will receive hundreds of emails from people who are, I think, maybe even have a well-meaning attitude and heart behind it, but they'll say, did you properly contact Beth before, you know, before you wrote the article in response to say, or a position such as like Matthew 18, as far as that's talking about church discipline. But I would simply state that when it comes to a public figure, that that person's outside of the realm of my local church. So I don't have the privilege or the access to individuals who are preaching public sermons or writing public books or espousing various different ideas and views in the public realm. So that's a contextual issue. And I think that we must understand that Matthew chapter 18 when we're talking about church discipline is talking about the context of a local church. So someone preaches a public sermon.

It's plastered on YouTube or someone writes a book for everyone to read and they're saying things in there that aren't biblical. To write an article publicly calling out that very error is not a violation of the Matthew 18 passage. I just think we have to be very honest with that. And because those are, I mean, one thing happened in the public sphere and the response also happens in the public sphere. It would be one thing if you're commenting publicly on something that happened privately, I would think that would be kind of just a breach of trust and that's just based on my own common sense. But I've gotten some of the same things when I talked about the problems with the Sparrow Conference that happened here in Texas with Ms. Uwan, who had some interesting things to say about whiteness. I don't think it's necessarily always the responsibility of the person commenting on something that they've seen publicly to make this a private conversation wonderful if that happens.

As long as the public commentary is happening from a place of wanting to share the gospel and we're going back to the supremacy of scripture as our authority, I agree with you. I think that it's totally fair game. Yeah, and I would just add to that, I would say, you know, if you chose to do that and you had access to her, then that's fine. I mean, and that's a wonderful thing. Sometimes these dialogues can take place in private instead of in the public sphere, and sometimes that's very good and profitable. However, I would say this, if Bethmore were a member of my church, then before I wrote one of the two articles that I've written recently, I would have had conversations with her before I ever penned those articles, simply because some of those differences could have been worked out perhaps in private rather than public.

So those are issues that I think that we must be honest about as well. So I think we're on the same page there. Yeah. Give some kind of encouragement to women who might be listening to this. Because if we're honest, in our flesh as women, it can be hard. And I specify in our flesh, it can be hard to read a verse that says women should be quiet in the church, especially in today's day and age when women are told, even if we don't believe the feminist mantra is that you can have it all, you can do it all.

You're just like a man. there is something that's, and I think it does go back to the Garden of Eden, that's kind of just rubs us the wrong way. It rubs our pride the wrong way, which of course is a sin. It rubs our ego the wrong way, which of course is a sin. So if you could give some encouragement to women about, again, I know you've already explained this, but their role in the church, and particularly for young women who feel that they have the gift of teaching and leadership and what God, according to his word, has for them. Yeah. So I would just say a couple of of things. I would say, number one, the Bible never teaches that Christian women's place is to be spent in the

kitchen, in the laundry basket, and just taking care of little children and changing diapers in perpetuity for the rest of your life. I would simply state that God has a plan for women, and it's a wonderful plan. But anytime that we violate the very blueprint that God has put in place, it's to question, it's to question God, it's to question His Word. In fact, if you go back, to the Garden of Eden, and you look at that first sin, you will see that that is precisely what Satan did as he attacked Eve, is he caused her to question the validity and the sufficiency and the supremacy and really the inerrancy of God's word. And same thing that he did with Jesus in the wilderness as well, using God's own word to mean

something that it didn't. Absolutely. So he's been twisting scripture for a very long time, and we need to be aware of that. But what we must understand is that the feminist mantra, if you will, this agenda that women have to do everything that men do in order to flourish in society and use all of their gifts, I think, is a mistake. In fact, if you just look at the mainstream television networks and you see the commercials that are being circulated on those stations, you'll see, you know, little girls who are, you know, their position next to little boys who are going out onto the football field. You'll see, you know, you know, Even in entertainment circles, you'll see women who are now going into MMA rings and fighting like men. I mean, this is something that the feminist have been trying to do for a very long time. If you'll go back to the Garden of Eden, you will see that Satan's very first attempt to sway Eve was to really question the very validity of the Bible, to question the sufficiency and the inerrancy of God's word. He's been twisting scripture for centuries.

And so he's very good at that. What we need to understand, though, is that God has a very special plan for women. And it's not that they are to only be in the kitchen or in the laundry basket or just changing diapers in perpetuity for the rest of their lives. There's a very special place for women in God's redemptive plan. And you'll look at that and you'll see in the Bible, you'll see that Paul alludes to this when he's talking to his son in the face. Timothy, he says, remember who taught you the word. And he's talking about Eunice and Lois. He's talking about his grandmother and his mother. So women have a very unique calling and to invest, to be on the front lines, if you will, to invest in their children, to teach them the scriptures. You can go through

history and you can read about giants of church history who have stated things like, you know, my mother never preached a sermon in her life, but she's far more powerful. than any of the preachers that I've heard in church history because of her investment in prayer, her investment in the teaching and the discipleship of the home. If you read Charles Spurgeon, you're going to find that he talks about the investment of his mother and her prayers and the prayers around the supper table and the prayers at the bedside and things of that nature. So what we need to understand is that God has a very high calling for women.

women. But anytime that we deviate from God's blueprint, it's going to be very problematic. And that has been the very goal of Satan from the very beginning. We need to be very cautious of that. I think it's a little bit of idolatry, too, for women to look at the particular station that God has said, look, I've got so much for you, Christian women, but this station of elder, this station of exercising, teaching authority over a man, that is not for you. Because, like you said, of the creation order that was set up with Adam and Eve and also the order that we see reflected in Christ in the church. That's a very gospel-centered and gospel-ordained order that is purposeful. It's not just this kind of cultural context of saying, sorry, the women back then were stupid.

And so they couldn't say anything. No, it's actually rooted in creation, which again is reflected in the New Testament, like I just said. But also for women who like me, my whole life have been very outspoken and have loved to lead and to organize and to talk about things that I'm passionate about. We also see throughout the Bible, there are places of leadership for women that God uses women for. But for us to say, well, no, we need access to everything or else you don't really love us is an unfortunate, I think, mistrust of God's plan, his sovereignty, his love for women. we see in Jesus exactly how God thinks of women, how much he relates to them, how much he attends to them, is attentive to them in the same way that he is a man. But there are different roles.

There are different responsibilities and there are different stations. And what I would want a woman to take away from that is not that God loves you less or that he sees you as any less dignified or any less worthy or any less smart or that you can't. You're not a good teacher or something like that. but that it's different. And there is a purpose behind that and for us to be able to take a step back and say, you know, even if this does hurt my ego, even if this does hurt my pride, I trust God's word. And I trust that he does this because he loves me as we see so well in the New Testament. Yeah, you're spot on, Ali. And I think that the feminists have been very successful in turning this idea of submission, biblical submission, into a pejorative, into something.

that's, you know, looked down upon in our culture. And I think that that's very unfortunate. Look, I have the privilege to serve as a pastor, and I serve as the pastor of very intelligent women in our church, that there is a particular young lady in our church that knows Greek and she can converse with us on the highest level as far as biblical interpretation. And she puts her gifts into use within the life of our church. But she knows that she has a a role that God has placed her in. And she's not willing to go outside of that particular role because she wants to honor God. And so again, you mentioned selfishness earlier and idolatry. And I think that a lot of this movement is very much rooted in that. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for insight.

I think this is going to be very encouraging and clarifying for people who maybe have been watching this conversation and they just don't know what to make of it. They like people, like Bethmore, who are kind of on the other side of this. And they all. also like people like you and Al Moller who seem to be on the opposite side and they're trying to just reconcile it. But at the end of the day, what we all have to remember is that any reconciliation of two opposing ideas can be found in the Word of God. And I agree with you wholeheartedly that the Word of God supports the differing roles for men and women and the equal value of men and women. So thank you so much for your insight and thank you for all the hard work that you do.

if you could tell everyone where to find you and anything that you would like people to know. Yeah, sure. Two things. You can find me on my blog. I write at delivered by grace.com. I'm also active on social media like Twitter. You can find me there at Josh Bice. Also, I'm the founding director of the G3 conference. It's held each January in Atlanta. I would love for you to come and join us this January. We're having a worship conference, so the entire theme is going to be focused on the theme of worship. And then finally, I would just simply state that if you're not a follower of Jesus Christ, you need to know that you have sin against God, that you have transgressed His holy law, and that you deserve, just like all of us, all of humanity, you deserve the wrath of God.

But if you would turn to Jesus Christ by faith, believing that he died for you in a substitutionary way and call upon him for the remission of your sins. The Bible says that you will be safe, that God will reconcile you to himself through the very blood of his son. And so I want to encourage anyone who might be listening to this who's not yet a believer to turn to Jesus Christ by faith. Amen. Thank you so much.

I think it's a great note to end on. I appreciate you taking the time to talk to me. Thank you, Allie. Have a great day. Thanks. You too. Well, I hope that you guys got some insight from him on this topic. like I said, this is something that I'm going to cover in depth from a biblical perspective,

of course, as we always do, this summer and go back to what scripture says about our role, particularly for someone like me. Maybe you're out there and you can relate to someone who likes to teach, someone who loves to talk about God's word, someone who loves to lead. What does it look like to flourish in the strengths that God gave us, that I believe that I was. I believe that I was, born with, what does it look like to flourish in those roles and still be in full submission to the Word of God? I think it is extremely possible. I don't think that it is necessary for us to compromise at all on the talents that we've been given by God or on obedience to God. I think it is always possible for us to do both to the glory of God. So I'd be interested

to hear maybe where you disagreed on this subject. As you could tell, I disagreed with him. on a few things, but if you have any thoughts, I would love to hear from you, Allie at the conservative millennial blog.com, feel free to send me an email or, of course, a message on Instagram, and I will see you guys back here on Monday for Theology Monday.