Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 1223 | The Forrest Frank Formula: Why Christian Music Is Trending

Episode Date: July 28, 2025

Today, we dive into the disturbing findings from a Health and Human Services investigation into organ donation, revealing that some patients were still alive when the process began. We sit down with Dr. Raymond Lynch from HHS to unpack these issues, the reforms under way, and the redemptive hope organ donation offers when done right. Plus, we celebrate Christian music’s mainstream surge with artists like Forrest Frank, react to Cosmopolitan’s article about "Relatable’s" impact, and address the troubling rise of $8,000 fake baby dolls, exposing their spiritual implications. Share the Arrows 2025 is on October 11 in Dallas, Texas! Go to ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠sharethearrows.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ for tickets now! Sponsored by: ⁠Carly Jean Los Angeles⁠: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.carlyjeanlosangeles.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Good Ranchers⁠: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.goodranchers.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠EveryLife⁠: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.everylife.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Buy Allie's new book, "Toxic Empathy: How Progressives Exploit Christian Compassion": ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://a.co/d/4COtBxy⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ --- Timecodes: (01:27) Intro (05:45) Cosmopolitan article (18:00) Christian music is exploding (26:11) Reborn dolls (46:00) Organ donations (Dr. Raymond Lynch) --- Today's Sponsors: A’del — Try A'del's hand-crafted, artisan, small-batch cosmetics and use promo code ALLIE 25% off your first time purchase at AdelNaturalCosmetics.com Seven Weeks Coffee — Experience the best coffee while supporting the pro-life movement with Seven Weeks Coffee; use code ALLIE at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.sevenweekscoffee.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ to save up to 25% off your first order, plus your free gift! Concerned Women for America — For a donation of $20 or more, you will get a copy of their new book, written by the CEO and President, Penny Nance, A Woman's Guide, Seven Rules for Success in Business and Life. Go to ⁠⁠⁠ConcernedWomen.org/Allie⁠⁠⁠ for your copy today. Paleovalley — When you choose Paleovalley, you’re not just snacking—you’re making a statement. Get 15% off your first order at ⁠paleovalley.com⁠, code ALLIE. --- Episodes you might like: Ep 1202 | Ohana Means... Foster Care? Why the 'Lilo & Stitch' Remake Is So Controversial https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/ep-1202-ohana-means-foster-care-why-the-lilo-stitch/id1359249098?i=1000712331902 Ep 1191 | Shane & Shane on Finding Faith in a Bar & Singing the Psalms https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/ep-1191-shane-shane-on-finding-faith-in-a-bar/id1359249098?i=1000709053612 --- Buy Allie's book, You're Not Enough (& That's Okay): Escaping the Toxic Culture of Self-Love: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://alliebethstuckey.com/book⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Relatable merchandise – use promo code 'ALLIE10' for a discount: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://shop.blazemedia.com/collections/allie-stuckey

HHS Secretary RFK Jr. just announced findings from an investigation that revealed a very dark side to organ donation. We've got a representative of the HHS here today, Dr. Raymond Lynch, to talk about these very disturbing findings as well as the potential for amazing hope and redemption that we can find in organ donation. But first, we're going to talk about some happy news. Number one, Cosmo is worried about the impact that relatable is having on women. That's a good thing. Number two, Christian music is making a huge splash and is having an incredible effect on the mainstream. And then we have to look, unfortunately, at this Wall Street Journal story about reborn dolls. I think this makes a huge statement about where our country is spiritually. We've got all of this and much more. On today's episode of Relatable, it's brought to you by our friends at Olive. Olive is helping make America healthy again. I use the Olive app to see what is really in my food, even beyond the ingredients labels.

So download the Olive app today on your app store. That's the Olive app on your app store. Hey guys, welcome to Relatable. Happy Monday. Hope everyone is having a wonderful day that you had a great weekend. First, very important. point of order. Very important piece of business. Bree got new glasses. And we need to talk about the new glasses. Can we pull up Bree please? Bree? I love your new glasses. I noticed them as soon as I

walked in. They stopped me on my tracks. Thank you so much. How long did you have your old glasses? Like two years. I've been really putting off. Oh, that's not that long. Well, yeah, I guess some people wait longer, but I've been really putting off going to the eye doctor and finally I did. So you said you're blind. Is that true? Yeah, oh, I can't see anything without my glasses. Really? That's why I wear them all. Have you always had glasses?

Since, like, middle school. Really? Wow. And I can't even wear contacts because they're too, like, itchy. That's how bad my eyes is. I went through a stage in high school of wearing colored contacts just for fun, and they, like, burned my eyes. It was terrible, but I was like, must have blue eyes. Yeah, the blue eye phase.

Yeah. My vision, I wonder if this is true for anyone else out there, my vision has gotten considerably worse after my pregnancies. So you can look forward to that one day that you might even become more blind. I don't know what it is, but your body changes a lot and I cannot see far away. And so I also need to go to the eye doctor. Oh, how long has it been for you? Two years. Yeah.

But I can see most things. I don't need reading glasses. It's when I'm driving. which is great. But I just have a hard time. Everything is kind of blurry from far away. And I didn't really notice it until like my daughter started being able to read. And she would be like reading a sign.

And I'm like, how in the world can you see that? And then I was like, oh, I am losing my eyesight. Maybe it's just getting older too. Yeah, it might be that. But okay, I just wanted to say cute glasses. Thank you so much. leave a comment of affirmation for Bree. Okay, a couple other things I wanted to say. Number one, if you have not gotten your new relatable merchandise, you got to get it. We are going to restock

this black shirt that everyone loved, plant seeds that bloom in eternity. But I love the green too. The green is this color. You don't see it on this graphic. This is all Carly Jean Los Angeles, by the way. So the quality that you love with CGLA, you are getting with this merch with the hats, with the tote. The toads are huge, by the way. I love them so much. I take them to the pool. I take them on trips. They're a good carry-on bag. They're really great for everything. You can fit so much into there. I also love the sweatshirts. I wear the sweatshirt almost every day when I get home, even though it is as hot as Hades. It is really thin. It's really breathable. Super cute. Self-love won't save you, but Jesus will. Related bros. The related gal in your life,

she wants this merch. She wants this specific merch, CGLA and Relatable. And so if you love her and you want to demonstrate that love for her, whether it's her birthday or anniversary or not, you should probably get her hat, sweatshirt, tote, and t-shirt,

just to be safe. Just to be safe, I would get her one of each. All right, Relatable had some mentions in the media over the weekend. And I just want to talk about that because I am very thankful that the things we talk about here, raising respectful ruckus for the things that matter, trying as best we can to navigate the chaos and confusion and cowardice of our culture

with as much clarity and courage as we possibly can, that that message is also being conveyed to an audience who is not used to what we have to say about the biblical reality of truth and morality and marriage and gender and the dignity of life. I had that New York Times interview just a couple weeks ago that came out. And then there was another New York Times piece that came out. That was very negative and completely inaccurate about the very straightforward argument of toxic empathy. It was also included in a negative article by David French.

But what else is new in the New York Times? But this article that came out in Cosmo was, I wouldn't say it was positive, but it was more. fair than some of the recent articles that have come out. That one interview that I did with the New York Times was with Ross. That was very fair. But some of the subsequent articles after that were not. This, however, I thought was such an interesting description. And I want to just go through some of the things that they said and what message this particular journalist is probably trying to convey.

So she wrote this article in Cosmo. Now, mind you, Cosmo was. the outlet that just a couple of years ago put up a how-to on Instagram for instructions for a satanic ritual abortion. All right. And so they're probably not down for the most part with the things that we are saying on relatable. Here's the title of this article. Meet the new wave of femininity influencers who want you to abandon feminism as you know it. Some of you pointed out that they're already kind of categorizing me as new when really I've been doing this for 10 years. I'm not new. I've talked about all the same things that I've always talked about.

It just is never ending the need to talk about these things. So here's how they open this up. And this might sound like a puff piece that we gave them this language ourselves. In the recording studio, Ali Beth Stuckey sits on a cream sofa. Her blonde hair perfectly tousled. Wow. She leans into the microphone and speaks. Okay, listen to this. I just think this is so, it's so funny how they describe it. And it's sweet, but then you get into what, you know, the message that they're really trying to convey. She's chatting and fun interspersing the serious with the silly and at first glance. She's just like any other podcaster, just at first glance, though. In many ways, Stucky's entire brand is built on being a regular girl's girl. Her hair is

impeccably blow-dried. She hates macha, wears floral dresses and throws in pop culture references like she's just another millennial in the group chat. Her podcast is called Relatable and that's exactly what she wants to be to our listeners, but Stucky isn't just here to chat. She's here to convert. And this is where she gets into, okay, Allie Beth Stuckey is emblematic of this very frightening. The left would say movement to try to convince women of a particular message that is not progressivism. But that is true. Those last lines are true. I am not just here to chat. I am here. I don't know if I would say convert, although that's true. I do want people to convert to Christianity. Absolutely. That is my number one desire. But to convince that is absolutely true. Every single podcast episode I do is meant to be persuasive. Yes, encouraging, yes, emboldening, yes, edifying, but I want it to persuade people. I want it to change people's minds. And I'm very grateful. I'm so grateful for the messages that I get from people saying, I thought this and now I think this. So here's how. this journalist frames this. There's a new women's movement emerging, one directly reacting to all

that's come before it. Those who are part of it, to varying degrees, believe the decades of feminism have harmed us and made us more miserable, that marriage modesty and motherhood is the way out of our discontent. Stucky is at the more radical end of the scale. Her podcast is unapologetically right-winging Christian, encouraging women to lean out of all that we've been taught and let men take charge again. Now obviously I do believe that men should be leaders. Men should especially be leaders within the church, leaders in the family. But I wouldn't say that that is like a huge part of the message that I'm conveying on the daily basis. Many episodes involve deep dives into scripture, the promotion of she says quote unquote biblical womanhood, a belief about gender

norms. Other center around political discussion, often focusing on abortion, which Stucca poses in all circumstances. This is true. She lightens the tone with edgy, edgy and sarcastic takedowns of pop culture and discussions on parenting. Now, here's where she thinks. So she also discusses Alex Clark and she talks about Louise Perry. She's an author, a very interesting person that I've had on this podcast before. She talked to Alex Clark and she mentions that being palatable is key. both Stucky and Clark promote traditional Christian marriage, oppose abortion, and berate hormonal contraception. True. They sell a lifestyle that looks very close to that of trad wives, yada, yada, yada.

But a cynic might say they understand that rejecting the tradwifery of current discourse is a way for them to appeal to a wider audience. So she believes that we're pushing basically trad wife lifestyle, but we're hedging a little bit because we're afraid that it's going to lose us followers. and she admits that that is a cynical take. Of course, that is not true. I think I've been very consistent that biblical womanhood in the tradwife trend that we see that is largely superficial and a little bit fetishistic on social media. They're not the same thing. There are good parts of being a quote unquote traditional wife, but being a biblical wife is better that might include some things that look traditional. It very often does, but it is not synonymous. those ideas are not interchangeable because you can be going to hell and be a tradwife.

Okay. So they're different things. She mentions Stucky has even gone as far as saying that some tradwife content lacks moral substance and has referred to it as straight up 1950s fetishized cosplay. That is true. It does lack moral substance. And then this article, it's actually interesting. I would encourage you to read it because it is a pretty pretty. fair perspective from a left-wing angle of the fear of conservatism and the fear of Christian

motherhood and womanhood and the fear that we might be appealing to women and a demographic that progressives dominate right now and have historically dominated and there's a paragraph in here and I don't have it in front of me but they cite someone by the name of Dr. K. She says that the fear is that women will start mirroring the voting patterns of the men who have been affected by the manosphere. And I say, oh, my goodness, from Cosmo's lips to God's ears, that would be wonderful. That's not my primary objective to change how people vote. I want to help by the power of the Holy Spirit change how people think, how we see the world the best that we can from a biblical perspective. and that, of course, will affect how we vote. And that's a good thing. Politics matter because policy

matters because people matter. Politics affects policy. Policy affect people. And people matter to God and people matter to us. And Jesus's king is in all-accompassing statement. God made the heavens and the earth. In the beginning, God made the heavens and the earth. That means he's the authority over all of it. So we don't get to compartmentalize what we think about God and what we think about morality. and what we think about politics. And really no one does, whether you're a secularist or whether you are a Christian, what you think about God and who is in charge and therefore what is right and wrong inevitably and must affect your politics.

And so while I'm not talking every day about what's going on in the news at this moment, I'm not talking every day about what's going on in politics. I'm trying the best I can, again, to navigate this crazy world from a biblical perspective, taking you along with me, that will, yes, affect how we think and affect how we involve ourselves politically. And I would say that's a very good thing. We also have some encouraging news, something that is going on in the Christian music world that I got to talk about on the news over the weekend. And it has to do with one of your favorite artists, and that is Forrest Frank. And we'll get into that in just a second. First, I want to remind you guys about

share the arrows brought to you by your friends at Carly Jean, Los Angeles. Y'all, it is really easy to feel alone. It's easy to feel like you are up against so much. It's easy to feel like you are the only mom in your community that is trying to disciple your kids in the Lord. That is trying to create boundaries, parameters, discipline in their life that leads them in a way that honors God and ensures that they have a biblical worldview. It is easy to feel like you are the only person at your job who cares about Christian values,

who isn't talking about getting drunk and hooking up over the weekend. It is easy to feel like you are the only one in your friend group, the only one in your college class, the only one at PTA meetings, the only one in your community that really cares about what God says is good and right and true. And I don't want you to feel alone. Satan prays upon isolation. There is a reason why he drives people to isolation when he takes. them, you need friends. You need sound teaching. You need to be challenged. You need encouragement. You need collective corporate worship. And I want you to find that, first and

foremost, at your local church, but I also want you to find that at Share the Arrows. And that's what you will get. Last year, we had 4,000 women come from all over the country and even from Canada, so I can say all over the world to Dallas, Texas, to be encouraged, to be challenged by sound biblical teaching, apologetics, motherhood training, biblical health training. And this year, it looks like we're going to have more than that, which is just amazing. I'm so grateful there is not another Christian women's conference like this. A lot of Christian women's ministry focuses on feelings. It focuses on emotion, focuses on your self-esteem. And while we do want you to leave their feeling edified, this conference is not about you. It's about God.

And it's about honoring him and representing him to our communities, no matter what stage of life you're in. If you're interested in that, go to share the arrows.com. Get your tickets today. It's October 11th in Dallas, Texas. And by the way, a little secret that I don't always share, you can use the first name of any speaker. Press unlock, do their first name. Say it's Taylor 15. You'll get 15% off your ticket. So Taylor 15, Elisa 15. Just press that unlock button. enter in that code and you'll get 15% off. Go to share the arrows.com. And before we get into the rest of our episode, I want to tell you guys about seven weeks coffee. This is America's pro-life coffee company. We love seven weeks coffee. We love the taste. We love the quality. It is organic. It is mold and pesticide free. It is single source. It is so good, y'all. But the best

part about it is that they are pro-life, that they donate 10% of every sale. of seven weeks coffee to pro-life organizations across the country. They just passed this huge milestone. They have raised because of you guys allowing your coffee to serve a higher purpose over $1 million for these pregnancy centers. Y'all, that has translated into helping so many moms, dads, and babies to allowing these moms to choose life because maybe they got the free sonogram or maybe they were able to get the support, the love, the prayer, the encouragement, the material resources that they

needed to make that life-affirming choice, all because you purchase this coffee that serves this very high purpose. They're called seven weeks because it's seven weeks gestation that baby is the size of a coffee bean and made in the image of God. So get your coffee at seven weeks coffee.com. Go to seven weeks coffee.com. You can use code alley for 10% off your first order. That's seven weeks coffee.com code alley. Okay, Christian music making a comeback. So for the first time, since two, 2014, over 10 years, two Christian artists have songs charting on the Billboard Top 100, which ranks the most popular songs across all genres based on streaming activity from digital platforms, Forrest Franks, Your Way is Better, reached number 61, has been on the chart for 13 weeks.

That is awesome. While Brandon Lake's hard fought Hallelujah peaked at number 40 and has charted for 22 weeks, that is awesome. I'm so excited about this. And Bree, you went to Forrest Frank a few weeks ago. I went to Forrest Frank, my chief related bro and I and our oldest daughter. We loved it. There were so many kids there.

Very family friendly and like legitimately a big concert that wasn't just for kids. But you went with a friend. What did you think about it? I thought it was so much fun. I think you said that you left a little bit early. I know at the end I felt like that. I mean, he gave like a very clear gospel presentation. And he was very clear throughout the whole thing that like this is.

was like a night of worship. It was probably the biggest night of worship in that city that night. And so, yeah, I just thought it was really, it was really great. I actually didn't know that much of his music before I went though. So it was kind of a new experience for me. And yeah, I thought it was great. It's just fun. He got the kids involved too, which I think was fun. Yeah. He's calling people up on stage and stuff. So it's a fun experience. I might have said this last time. But I, um, he, you know, he posts a lot of videos. on Instagram and we'll play one in a second, but he posted one a few months ago where he was responding to a comment, maybe on TikTok, where it's said, like, would you ever cuss in any of your

songs or something like that? And he just, I think he just shook his hat or just said no. And then it was a montage of all of the different kids that come to his concerts. And I just thought that that was so sweet. Now, obviously, he's honoring God first and foremost, but as a mom, someone thinking about that when he could so easily not, he could so easily say, well, this is not for kids. I don't make songs for kids. I'm not the wiggles. But he's thinking, okay, these people, I care about them. And I want to build them up. And I just thought that was, I thought that was really, really sweet. So I was on Fox News this weekend. And I was asked about this on Fox and Friends, just this trend of really popular Christian music.

that is entering into the mainstream. And I gave my take on it. But then Forrest Frank, who has like 4 million followers on Instagram, he kind of reacted to it on his profile, which I thought was really fun. Here's that one. The first time,

multiple Christian musicians are charting on the Billboard Hot 100 at the same time. And staying there for weeks, Gen Z is becoming more Christian. In fact, the most Christian generation in quite some time. What is causing this?

Is 60% global? increase in Christian music streams over the last five years, Allie. I think it's the increase in an interest in meaning and fulfillment and specifically Christianity in the satisfaction that Jesus Christ brings, but also Christian artists are making really good music. I went to a Forrest Frank concert with my husband and our oldest daughter who is six. And let me tell you, it's not only that the Holy Spirit was present there was a beautiful night of worship, but it was also genuinely a good experience. And so I'm just so thankful to see this collision of awesome talent and a desire to glorify God. Honestly, praise God that people are starting to listen to things that aren't

degenerate and awful and ugly and shallow. So I just thought that was sweet of him to share. Now, some of the comments, unfortunately, were like, Charlie Kirk, Charlie Kirk and how he wasn't making any kind of political statement. I'm sure he didn't know at all. who I was. Maybe he knew who Charlie Kirk was. So people can just pipe down about that. But truly, I am so grateful to see this collision. I really am. There are people who are just so talented. They're using that talent for the glory of God. And that is what we want. And I am so thankful for every artist who says, I want to not only do Christian music, but I want it to be excellent. I want it to be really good while at the same time understanding, and I'm not saying that any of those artists don't understand this, but just a reminder for all of us that mainstream approval is not the measure of our approval before God.

That just because whatever you are doing is not gaining more popularity or isn't getting the platform that you want it to or is not crossing into the mainstream in whatever realm that you're in, that doesn't mean that God is not giving you favor. That is not me that God doesn't approve of what you're doing. That doesn't mean that you're not giving glory to God. There are millions and millions of moments that happen among Christians every day that are unseen and unsung and will never make headlines and will never get any approval by the mainstream that. That God is looking down and saying, yes, well done, my good and faithful service. So just understand that. We're happy when Christianity is seen in the mainstream because we want more people to come to Christ and God can use that as a megaphone. also understand that he uses your seemingly small obedience to bring people to himself.

And that God's eternal plan of redemption is always going off without a hitch, no matter what is going on in the news, what is going on in politics. And we can trust in that and rest in that. All right, this is going to be a little bit of a jarring transition, Bree, because for some reason, my team keeps bringing me, these stories that are very disturbing. So I wanted to start with something happy and positive before we get into this next story about reborn dolls. But it's an important story because now it's hit the mainstream media. Now it's in the Wall Street Journal.

Previously, they were just these weird TikToks about people who have these very realistic babies and people ask me, Allie, why do you care about this? Why do you talk about this if it's making people happy? I will tell you why I care about it. That show you we got a lot of work to do as Christians because while good things are happening happening, very dystopian and scary things are happening too. But I got to go ahead and pause and tell you about our next sponsor before we get into that. And that's Paleo Valley.

Y'all, Paleo Valley is an amazing family-owned company that makes incredible food products. And I'm not just saying that because they're a sponsor. I have been eating their 100% grass-fed and finished organic. beef sticks as a snack. They've, they have saved me so many times when I am hungry, but I don't want to eat something unhealthy. I don't just want to eat carbs. I need some protein to actually satiate me and feel good about what I'm eating. That's what I rely on. And you know what? I've tried lots of different kinds of beef jerky in the past. And it just doesn't make me feel good. I don't know what ingredient is in those products. It's not making me feel good. I haven't

experienced any of that bad aftermath or just not feeling great after I have had Paleo Valley products. But let me tell you actually the product that I use most from Paleo Valley. And that is their incredible electrolyte mix. It literally tastes like a watermelon jelly rancher, but no synthetic ingredients, no added sugars. It just makes me feel refueled. And it's also like a nice little sweet treat. Again, without any of the guilt of putting bad processed. things in my body. They've got all kinds of stuff that you should check out. They've got protein. They've got superfood bars really popular in my family. Go to paleovalley.com. You can use code Alley. You'll get 15% off your first order when you do. Check it all out. It's so good.

PaleoValley.com slash Alley code Alley. Okay, Bree. What is going on with the realistic baby doll world? I feel like you must follow it because you're always the one that's sending me the TikToks to react to. This has actually become a thing now, according to the Wall Street Journal. Yeah. First of all, to clear the air, I don't have one of these dolls. I've never bought one of these dolls. Oh, my gosh.

That would be grounds for, can I say that grounds for five? I couldn't work here anymore. Yeah, no, they, I guess my algorithm thinks that I'm one of those people, which is also No, it's just because you probably clicked on one and now they're like, she loves it. She loves it. And you know what? I do because I show them to you every time I see one. Yeah. Yeah, no, these are dolls that are like very expensive. The Wall Street Journal posted this article, basically revealing how lucrative this industry is before I just thought it was kind of a thing that some people did. But it's like really a whole industry. They're like expos, conferences specifically

about these kinds of dolls. Yeah, that's one table at the, what's it called? The Dolls of the World Expo. And so it's this huge conference where people go and, like, buy dolls and look at what people have created. I never thought that I'd be the kind of person who is now saying, just get a dog. Just get a cat. You can get a pit bull if you want to.

I would rather you do that. I think. Yes, I would. I would rather you do that than get their reborn doll. It's bad to replace your replace kids with pets. It's bad to elevate pets to the level of human. But at least they are animate. Yeah.

At least they have brains and they can have emotion and you can have a real bond. But when we're talking about an inanimate object, I mean, we are talking about real true idolatry in some cases. And I know some people are going to say, no, no, no. You're taking it too far. That's not what this is. this is just making people happening. It's not happy and it's not harming anyone. I beg to differ. Okay, let me get into the story. Why is it being reported by the Wall Street Journal? As Bree said, this is no longer just like a trend that you see random people do on TikTok. This is an entire

industry. What does this say about our hearts and our souls, the state of our nation? The Wall Street Journal published this article on the Reborn Doll community on July 23rd. It's titled, why people are buying $8,000. Life-like baby dolls, do not tell me people aren't having kids because they can't afford it. Okay? Not only this, but we also see people paying thousands and thousands of dollars to keep their 13-year-old chit-sues alive. Okay?

It is not because people can't afford to have kids. It is a matter of priorities. It is a matter of culture. So reborn dolls are hyper-realistic baby dolls, sometimes costing up to $10,000 that are often treated by their owners as real infants. The reborn doll phenomenon started in the early 2000s has recently become a worldwide trend. Collectors consider themselves parents and range in age from small children to senior citizens.

Not the dolls, but the collectors, right? There's not like reborn old people, right? I sure hope not, but there are reborn toddlers. Okay, I'm disturbed. There are even expos and conventions celebrating the hobby, including the Dolls of the World Expo, that took place in June with 1,500 attendees at a convention center in Greensboro, North Carolina. We already put up that picture. We can put up the picture again just so we can talk about it.

Like you can see how realistic this is. And a lot of the people, I do see like a child in the picture, but it looks like a lot of the people looking that they are, that they're grownups. We're not talking about, like I remember when I was little, we had those baby dolls that felt like real babies. they were heavy and they looked realistic. I mean, these look really, really real. The dolls are made in a labor-intensive process, which is part of the reason for the hefty price tag, according to WSJ.

Many of the artists are women who work in home studios who hand-paint the doll's veins, root individual hairs, and use expensive materials like silicone and glass-eyes to make the dolls lifelike. Supplies for one doll can cost more than $500. You add the labor on top of that, but you're still, if you're selling it for $8,000,

you are making a good profit. Collectors argue that the dolls can be therapeutic for women who have lost babies or suffered miscarriages, but according to the Wall Street Journal, some of the collectors have real children and grandchildren. I don't think that this is a form of redemption and therapy for people who have lost or who have struggled with infertility. In fact, I know it's not because it is a fake replacement for something that is real. And it is a fake bomb for a real deep wound. It is like, I don't, I couldn't even say that it's like putting a bandaid on like a head gash. I would say it's like doing something harmful to. I don't even know putting dirt in it, making it worse. I actually think that you are creating an infection that is going to infest your heart

and your soul by trying to attach to and put hope and belonging into an inanimate object. That will only lead to further heartbreak because at some point the humanity inside you, the conscience you have, the real grief you're feeling will collide with the reality that this is not a real person who is not living, who is not growing, who does not depend upon you. It is okay to have that feeling of loss. It is okay to feel immense pain. I think it's even okay to be tempted to see. Will this fill that void? I understand. where that feeling comes from, but this is asking an object to do that which it never can. And I disagree with this assertion that it hurts no one.

I think it's bad for your soul and I care for people's souls. And by the way, if people can replace a real child that has needs, that has demands, that requires sacrifice and discomfort and inconvenience and creates growth in the individual, and causes us to reorder society to protect this very vulnerable and helpless person. If people can just skirt all of that in favor of this object that is cute and that she can play with, but that you can toss aside whenever you don't want it anymore, then we've got a problem that creates disorder. I would say that successful and healthy societies are ordered around caring.

for the most vulnerable. I'm not talking about a welfare state, that the welfare state has to take money from those who have and forcibly give it to the have-nots. I'm not talking necessarily about politics primarily. I'm talking about how we order our communities, how we order our own lives, our own churches, how we create these systems of care, what we sacrifice for whom we sacrifice for. It is healthy when we sacrifice for, give dignity to and care for those who can't help themselves, babies and children and older people and the vulnerable. It is disordered when we say, well, we are actually going to sacrifice the needs of children

on behalf of adult desires, which we see in so many different ways. And in this way, I think people are ignoring their response. to care for real children, whether they're their own children or their orphans or their poor children or their foster children or children who need help in some other way because they are pouring all their resources and their time into these fake things. Okay, this is real. This is how people are ordering their lives and spending their time and money while they're actual children who need our help, sought to.

That is very frightening to me. And this is, I would say, a form of worship. And therefore, I do believe that it's a form of idolatry. And you might ask, well, what's the difference in spending this time and this energy on a real person? If it's the same amount of time and energy spent, then how is one idolatry? And then when you're taking care of a real child, it's not. Because taking care of a real child is stewardship. It's responsibility.

It's doing something that has to be done. It is taking care of a gift that God has given you, a real soul that will live forever in one of two places. Your responsibility for that child, for their physical and spiritual well-being has both a temporal and eternal impact. But the care and the resources and the time and energy given to an inanimate object, it is a dead end. And therefore, it is wasting the one precious life that you have. as a person. We are not put on this earth just to feel good, just to gain pleasure, just to fill our own voids, just to have all of our desires and even some of our needs met. That is not why we've been put on earth. We have been put on earth to glorify God and to love other people. To make better the space

that we occupy this tiny speck of eternity on which God has providentially placed us, we are called to make it better for the glory of God and for the good of other people. This is the opposite of this. This is consumerism. This is materialism. This is self-service. This is operating in a way that really only cares about the self. And I simply don't think it is a justification.

Loss is a justification for this. Here is sub three. So this is simply not a healthy way to cope with that kind of pain. I was thinking about this first. I was looking for it as that video is playing about how idols are mute. They can't hear your prayers and they can't hear and they can't speak and they can't feel. And I was thinking of 1st Corinthians 12, 2. you know that when you were pagans, you were led astray to mute idols, that when you were

pagans, you were led astray to mute idols. This is how paganism works. It elevates the inanimate. It elevates those who are not made in the image of God. So plants, animals. And when we worship these objects, the creature rather than the creator, God himself, who is blessed forever. Amen. Romans 1, everything becomes disordered in our own lives and also in society as a whole. Didn't you say, Bree, that in Brazil this is becoming so popular that people are actually taking babies to the hospital to get care and that Brazilian law is now having to say, please stop? Yeah, there were a couple cases. There was one case where this didn't have to do with the hospital, but there was a guy who, I guess,

got frustrated because he thought that one of the babies near him was a reborn doll and he like hit it and it was a real baby. And so now I guess that's how prevalent they are in Brazil. So now there's legislation about that. And then yeah, there were there's, I mean, I only heard one story, but there I think are others as well if there's legislation now being talked about. But of a woman who went and took her reborn doll to the hospital to try to get it help. She said that the baby was in quote, a lot of pain. pain, even though obviously it's not real. And her family actually took her to like a mental

institution after that. The hospital obviously couldn't do anything for a fake baby. So yeah, now Brazil, the Brazilian government is talking about legislation to ban healthcare for fake babies. Oh my gosh. Oh, yeah. What in the world? We have come to such a dark place. Okay, I did not know this that Britney Spears, she posted about basically a reborn doll and acted like she was, she was having a real baby in 2021. Like she carried this baby around, said she was going to take time off to be with her baby and like decorate her nursery. Yeah. And she has had a miscarriage. And so some people attribute it to that. She posted about it before that happened, I think. So I'm not sure about the timeline. But yeah. And then just recently like last in the last

two months. She was also seen with like a bodyguard or someone in her entourage who was also carrying a fake baby with her. So I don't know if it's an ongoing thing, but that seems it seems to be. See, case and point, this is like a mental health issue, but it's also a spiritual issue. I also think, okay, so on the one side, I guess you have women that are relying on these dolls to fill something. I mean, again, I think it's healthier to use plants and pets to replace kids. Although I think that's obviously so unhealthy. I've been talking about that for a very long time, writing about that for a long time.

But we've gotten to this place of spiritual darkness. And I'm like, okay, can we just go backwards a couple steps? Oh, my goodness. But on the other side of that, you've got men using these sex dolls and these sex robots who are also replacing real relationship. You've got these teenagers who are building relationships, even romantic relationships, with AI chatbots. I think this like convergence that we've talked about on this show where like robot AI, not real life is converging with real life so fast that we don't know even like we don't even know what to do.

And I don't even I don't even know what analysis to give you of that. This is right out of a dystopian novel. If you have not read Brave New World, 1984 gets a lot of credit for Propherson. signed about the future, Brave New World might be more accurate. You read what Huxley wrote, however many decades ago, I guess probably 70, almost 80 years ago now. And you see that he saw the direction we were going far before the computer was ever made. Oh my goodness. This is what I want to remind you in the midst of all of this. The realest, truest reality that exists is that you were made by a God who is in charge, who saw all of this before any of it ever happened, that he is not limited by time or

space. Nothing surprises him. Nothing takes him back. Nothing catches him off guard. He is never looking down and wondering how did we get here. He is suspended in the eternal now. And he is always working everything together for the good of those who love him. That is always going on. When you don't know how the heck we got here culturally or morally, when it seems like we're going to hell in a hand basket or even when it seems like things are going really well and everything is coming together. The truth is that the realest reality is that there is a God who created us who sent his son to die for us and that eternal plan of redemption is always going off without a hitch. I would say if you are caught in any of this where you are putting your trust and you are

finding satisfaction and acceptance and fulfillment from anything other than Christ who died for you, then it's time for you to turn. It's time for you to repent whatever you are seeking, whether it is the bottle, whether it's pills, whether it's money, whether it's fame, whether it's materialism, whether it's a reborn doll, whether it's a sex robot, whether it is AI, whatever you are turning to to find the love that you are longing for. You need to turn away from it because it is going to lead you to death and dissatisfaction and ultimately damnation. That is the true reality here. All of this stuff matters because Satan is using everything. every way he can to vie for the throne of our hearts. And there's only one who belongs there.

Maybe you're thinking I'm making too big of a deal of this, but I really see this as really, really dark idolatry. And so I think that we just have to call it out for what it is. All right. We've got another really important story. This time it's coming out of the Health and Human Services Department. And this has to do with organ donation. Oregon donation can be really good, really redemptive. But there is a scary, dark side of it that I really want all of us to know. I know that this is now a little bit of a longer episode because we had so much to talk about. We had some high highs. We've got some low lows. And we've got a little bit of scary, but also some good and hopeful in this last segment that we are going to have with an HHS representative.

And that is Dr. Raymond Lynch. So before we get into that conversation, let me tell you about our next sponsor. It's Adele Natural Cosmetics. I absolutely love Adele. I use them on a daily basis. I love their essential cleanser, their essential moisturizing spray, their essential moisturizer, I love how it smells, I love how it feels, I love how it makes my skin look. I love that they are a family-owned unapologetically Christian and pro-life company that makes all natural products, not only their skincare, but also all of their makeup. When I'm not in studio, I love their moisturizing foundation, how it gives me good coverage, but also makes me look natural and glowy.

They're such a beautiful family that makes really, really excellent products for the glory of God. It would be a great company for you to support and you will love their stuff. Go to Adele Natural Cosmetics.com. Use code Alley. When you do, you'll get 25% off your first time purchase. Adele Natural Cosmetics.com code Alley. Dr. Lynch, thanks so much for taking the time to join us. Before we get started on this conversation, can you tell us about your role at HHS? Sure. So I'm chief of the Oregon Transplant branch. at HRSA. That's the Health Resources and Services Administration, which is an agency within HHS. And so HERSA's role here is that we oversee this public-private partnership, which means that

it's the outside entities, the hospitals that do the transplants, the things called OPO's, organ procurement organizations, who are the federally designated entities that recover these organs, and then the labs that help with that. And we have a lucky we have a large number of patient and family volunteers. Ursa oversees that to help the OPTN make the policies and monitor adherence to them that keep the system safe. Gotcha. And Secretary Kennedy announced an investigation that is leading to reforms when it comes to organ transplants. Can you talk about what sparked that investigation and what reforms are being made?

Yeah, so the system has been the subject of congressional review for a number of years. And we actually had a major kind of epoch-defining change in the law in 2023. So the oversight and investigation subcommittee of the Energy and Commerce Committee within the House, they held a one-year sort of post-change in the law follow-up hearing in September of last year. During that, there was a very concerning allegation made. And in follow-up to that, EURSA directed that there be a much more sweeping review of cases that were handled by this one OPO. And what was the law that changed in 2003? Yeah.

So the law was called the Securing the U.S. OPTN Act. And it was a really badly needed update to a 40-year-old law that actually set up the entire system. So in 1984, the National Organ Transplant Act is how we created the system by which organs are allocated. There aren't enough organs for everybody. And so deciding who gets an organ is a really critical step. It's something that you have to bring together people from the medical and the surgical side, patient and family reps, ethicists. And doing that in a controlled and reliable way was why we needed Noda back in 1984.

The transplant system grew, the science grew, the clinical. work group, but the law didn't. And so by 2023, it was pretty outdated and we needed that change. And what were some of the updates made because of that law? The biggest one was in how the government can manage this system. So historically, it was set up that there could only be one contractor for the OPTN, and that needed to be a nonprofit organization with experience in transplant. And so that ended up being a kind of a self-fulfilling proposition that there was only one contractor, whoever held that role for 40 years. The new law changed it so that we could have multiple vendors, meaning multiple contractors in the space, each attending to an area in which they have expertise. It also allowed the government to have a more independent board take a role here because historically, the board of that contractor was the board of the open.

the government-sponsored entity. And so this created an independent group that would provide more objective oversight. It also increased our appropriations inside HRSA to allow us to bring in more expertise. I am one of the people who was able to join as a part of that so that we have subject matter expertise, more contract help, basically everything we need to do to provide good management and oversight. On July 21st, the HHS released the statement that announced it will begin reforming the organ transplant system following the HERSA investigation. The investigation revealed that a major organ procurement organization, that's OPO, in Kentucky, Southwest Ohio, and part of West Virginia, they had begun organ procurement on some patients that were showing signs of life.

Obviously, this is the nightmare scenario. Some people have heard stories like this reported in the news that someone that the doctors thought was dead was actually not dead. And they began preparing them to harvest their organs. And so, I mean, what's going on here? Is this a one-off case or is this something that is more prevalent than we would like to think? So this is highly concerning. and this is why, you know, Secretary Kennedy has taken such strong action, and HERSA for the first time ever has issued a corrective action plan.

So the way that this kind of organ recovery occurs is something called donation after circulatory death, DCD. And in this case, the person is not legally dead when the OPO starts to get involved. But the primary medical team, the hospital workers, have informed the family that they think that the prognosis, meaning that the person's chance of survival is poor, meaning either they are going to die or they will never wake up and have brain activity at a state that either the person themselves or the family knows would not be their wishes. So in that case, families have the ability to say,

you know, we want to transition to providing comfort and letting, you know, death occur, letting the person pass away. The opio gets involved there so that when somebody passes away in a natural fashion that if it happens over a relatively short time after taking out the breathing tube and stopping the other medical support, that the organs can be taken out and used for transplant. Gotcha. And I remember, if I remember correctly, the story that really caught a lot of news headlines was T.J. Hoover in Kentucky back in 2021. He was admitted to Baptist Health's emergency room. He was unresponsive for two days. His family then agreed to donate.

his organs, and that was his wish. So he was prepped for organ donation surgery, but as they were prepping him, he began thrashing, crying, resisting, showing signs of life. The independent HRISA HRSA review found clear negligence by the OPO that was involved there. HRSA examined 351 cases where organ donation was authorized but not completed. Identifying issues, 103 cases of those those 73 patients showed neurological signs incompatible with organ donation, and 28 may not have been deceased when procurement began. The investigation uncovered poor neurologic assessments, lack of coordination with medical teams, questionable consent practices, and misclassified causes of death, especially in overdose cases. All right, not to get conspiratorial here,

that's very scary. Should we credit this to just incompetence and laziness, or is there something else going on. Is there some kind of incentive for these teams to not be as diligent as they should be in making sure the person is truly dead before starting this process? So there are aspects of this that are what HRSA is reviewing, and there are other aspects that are partner agencies in the federal government are responsible for. I think the overwhelming majority of people in this space, the providers, and they really are providers in the opio world. They do this in good faith. They know the value that the solace that this can bring to patients, families who are grieving, who are watching a loved one pass away, and knowing that something

good can come out of this. And the hope that it brings to the patients and families who need these organs. So they're doing this for the right reasons. The error here, I think, was that when you assess somebody, when you look at them in the bed and you get a sense of how severely they've been neurologically injured, you need to know are you actually seeing their neurologic function, or is that being clouded either by drugs that the hospital is giving to keep them comfortable or by some other thing like a drug overdose that led to them coming into the hospital in the first place? And you need to reassess that as time goes on because in Mr. Hoover's case that I can talk about because it is in the HERSA report, which has now been made public, Mr. Hoover was showing clear signs that he was recovering. And it was being documented by OPO staff that he was recovering. He was waking up. But they didn't change what they were planning to do. And it was a hospital physician who said, I'm not comfortable proceeding with this and ended the process. So I don't know if you can answer this, but why? Why would they record that there were signs of recovery and decide to move forward anyway? And basically they depended on the good conscience of the doctor to stop it. But who knows how many cases there are where, you know, the doctor doesn't feel like he can speak up or he just doesn't. So I think this is something that, you know, we find in government review of similar systems.

Aviation is probably the closest analogy to this where people essentially receive it as kind of a received wisdom. And they act as they think the person before them and the person after them would act. So there was a lack of critical thinking to reassess what trained physicians and hospital staff were telling them. And it's a circumstance where you can't let this be a runaway train. You have to know that you're responsible for the actions that you take with that living patient. Quick pause to tell you about our last sponsor for the date. That's Concerned Women for America. This organization is the largest public policy Christian women.

Women's org for 45 years. They have been leading the charge as your voice in all levels of public policy when it comes to the sanctity of life, the protection of the family, religious liberty, parental choice and education, so much more. They have been absolute pillars for conservative Christian policy have advocated to the top levels of government, the values, the needs, the concerns, the priorities that moms like you and I, I have. Penny Nance is the CEO. She's awesome. I've met her before. She wrote a woman's guide, seven rules for success in business and life. And they're giving away this incredible resource to you as a gift when you go to concernedwomen.org slash alley. That's where you can get your copy and learn more about

women for America, concerned women for America. That's concernedwomen.org slash alley. Tell me a little bit more about the reforms that are being put in place to make sure as much as, you know, your department is able to make sure that this is not happening. Yeah, so they're the biggest, again, going in the aviation world, the biggest way to prevent accidents is to make a safer system overall. And we've done that by using the new authorities and resources that we got with the Securing Act in 23 to get that independent friends. which allows us to bring in outside eyes and have a more critical view of what have been accepted norms. Now, in the case of DCD procurement, the corrective action plan that I mentioned had an element that was focused on this one OPO, but it also has some tools to help the OPTN make better policies around making this safe nationwide. And those really go at a couple of different objectives.

One is better documentation of what somebody's neurologic status is, meaning how severely their brain is in, and what the likelihood is that they would be a good DCD donor candidate. The second is listening to hospital staff and families and making sure that people know that a pause is something that can be called for. This is something that is pretty standard and other elements of Madison. Part of the real patient safety revolution of the early 2000s where family members get a voice in, you know, speaking up and saying, I question this. And then better data, making sure that we know what medication. were given to somebody around the time that they were, you know, brought to the operating room for the attempted organ recovery.

Is there any profit incentive anywhere in this supply chain when it comes to organ donation? Hospitals, doctors, OPO. So the family of a deceased donor does not receive any compensation. They get some help with a change in burial expenses, but they're not compensated for being an organ donor. the OPO has to pay the hospital for the time and resources that it uses. If a potential organ donor candidate is kept in the ICU for a period of days, if they do tests like cardiac calves or bronchoscopy where they're looking down into the lungs, those things cost money, the operating room costs money.

And so the OPO has to pay the hospital for that. They have the resources to pay that from the charge that they make for the organ. So if an organ donor patient, you know, has a liver, two kidneys, a heart, and lungs that are recovered, the fees that are collected by the OPO for that are used to fund their activities. Is it reasonable to wonder if there would be more of an incentive then to allow a patient to die so that their organs could be harvested than it would be to keep them alive? because there would be no reimbursement if that patient survives. Well, to some degree, we're dependent on medical ethics, right? And this is a good faith system. And again, I want to emphasize that everything that Eursa has seen shows that the majority of cases,

this is working well, and the majority of personnel that are involved in this are doing this well and in good faith. We always have to have that question. That's part of oversight is making sure that we don't see any evidence of that. And if we do see evidence of it, that we take the appropriate. steps on it. But right now, everything that we see, I think, would be consistent more with being misguided rather than having poor motives. Okay. And I've seen a lot of conversations about this over the past few years. There are people who say, do not put on your driver's license organ donor. And the thought behind that is if you do that, then there's less incentive for them to

keep you alive. Do you think that there is anything, behind that, that people shouldn't actually be putting organ donor on their license, or is that also a misguided fear? It's a common fear, but I would say it's misplaced. So I've been a physician for 20 years. I have always loved transplant and wanted to do this. And the two things that I've heard from public people, from patients that I've interacted, the two fears really are. A person like me will never get an organ when it's my time. And a person like me is, you know, going to have my choices made more towards organ donations than being kept alive. I think it's important to know

that the government is making sure that neither of those things are true. We already, earlier this spring announced us, again, with the resources that we got from Congress, that we're making sure that the system stays fair and that those lists that are made that place somebody in order to get a transplant, that that is being done in order and that we're not skipping patients. On the donor side, you know, we're making sure with this corrective action plan and with other work that we're doing, that it is safe to make that choice. And it's a truly noble choice. It's one that 170 million Americans have made. It's in the end, everybody's individual choice. And I would encourage your viewers to talk about it with their family, but to talk not in terms of fear, but in hope.

It's that you will live on, that you will give life if you make that brave choice, and that the government will make sure that you are kept safe and that your wishes and your family are respected when you make that choice. Yeah, it is important to note that I know we're talking about potentially scary side of this, but when it's done right, it is truly such a redemptive thing. When you think about all of the children, all of the moms, the dads, the brothers, the sisters, all of the people who have been saved because of. organ donation. I do want to make sure that we also emphasize that. And that is why it's important

to get this system right and why the accountability, transparency, the reforms that are being put in place are so important. I'm sure that there is a fear that because of maybe bad PR or some truly horrific stories that we've heard that people, that fewer people will donate their organs. Is that a concern that y'all have? Well, to be frank, I'm really happy to be here. I'm happy to address that concern because I think having calm conversations like we're having about this and about saying there's always room to improve and we have to insist on perfect and that is what we are doing. That is the basis for trust and you earn that trust one patient at a time, one interaction at a time. So we are deeply committed to that, but it can't happen in the dark.

And if we don't talk about it, those single incidents that do happen, they take on, you know, really scary proportions in the public eye. Yeah. And one more question that I have. It's a little bit out of order, but I was thinking as you were talking about the list and making sure that we're, you know, you're going in order.

I just am not, I just don't know the factors that go into putting someone on the list. Like what are the ethical and medical factors that go into the order of people who are on the transplant list? So it's a little different for every organ. In general, it's organized in terms of priority to prevent patients dying on the waiting list. So dialysis will keep somebody alive if they're in kidney failure, but it's not a safe way to live compared to having healthy kidneys. And it's much, much less safe than having a transplant. So the amount of time that you have been on the waiting list for kidney or really sick with kidney disease is a key part of it. In liver and in heart and lung, there's not that long-term support option or not to the same degree. And so it's more about your immediate chance of death than the near term, either from infection or from the organ failing outright. And so the ordering changes a little by organ. Okay. What are some other things that people should know about organ donation, whether it's a loved one that's in the hospital or maybe

in hospice, they're considering this or just in general, even, you know, holding their representative as accountable to hold the federal government accountable. We all want this to be as healthy, accountable, and as redemptive and effective as possible. So what should the average person know and do? I think they should know the good that this system does and the reason why the government supports it. So this is a true success. America has the best system in the world. because it was recognized early on that this is a true public good. It's a public good in terms of keeping patients alive. It also saves the U.S. government a tremendous amount of money by the success of kidney transplant.

It's not just healthier for the patient. It costs them less. It costs the government less. This is a real success. Keeping it that way is something that requires good oversight. Again, left to their own devices, no system will function as well and as safely. as it should, and that's why it's been recognized. This is a uniquely bipartisan issue. The Securing Act in 2023 passed unanimously through both houses of Congress. This is something that the

administration has recognized as a real priority, and Secretary Kennedy has taken real leadership on making sure that people can believe in this as a safe system. So I would view it not in terms of fear, but in terms of the good that it offers if it's done well. Yes. And I think right now, even though it absolutely is bipartisan, something that I think everyone across the aisle wants to know is that people are being prioritized for organ donation regardless of color, regardless of socioeconomic background,

regardless of political affiliation, regardless of any belief system that they have, and that it is truly objective, ethical, and neutral, both on the donation side and on the receiving the donation side. And I think as long as, is true fairness and truth and goodness and redemption or kind of the North Star and transparency that this can continue to be a really good thing. So I appreciate your efforts and continuing to go that direction. Thank you for shedding more light on it. Really appreciate the chance to speak with you.

Thank you.