Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 1224 | The Mary Debate: Catholics vs. Protestants

Starting point is 00:00:00 A recent post on X about Jesus's siblings had Catholics and Protestants debating about Mary. What is true about her? Did she have original sin? Was she a perpetual virgin? We will be going through the Catholic doctrines and dogmas of Mary today and what Protestants believe and what I specifically believe about Mary. On today's episode of Relatable, it's brought to by our friends at Good Ranchers. Go to good ranchers.com. When you use code alley at checkout, you get $40.

Starting point is 00:00:30 off your order, get American meat delivered right to your front door. That's good ranchers.com code alley. Hey guys, welcome to Relatable. Happy Wednesday. Hope everyone is having a wonderful week so far before we get into our discussion of Mary Catholic versus Protestant doctrine on the Virgin Mary. I do want to ask you guys to please subscribe. Subscribe to whatever platform you listen to or watch this podcast on.

Starting point is 00:01:07 A lot of you are listening on Spotify. or on Apple or you're watching on YouTube and you don't realize you haven't actually hit the subscribe button. But that is how we keep the lights on. That's how we continue to make free content for you guys. So if you could please subscribe to YouTube, even if you listen on another platform and make sure that you are subscribed on other platforms as well, that will help us out a lot and make sure that we are serving you to the very best of our ability. All right, Today is Theology Wednesday. And because you guys loved that Israel episode so much, I want to follow that same format where I say this is what one side believes and I want to give the fairest and the truest representation of that side is possible, no matter where I land on it.

Starting point is 00:01:53 This is what the other side believes and this is what I believe because this is not only about persuading people. I would say it's not even primarily throughout the episode about persuading people. This is really about educating people. In this particular episode, what Protestants believe, most Protestants anyway, specifically evangelicals believe about Jesus' mother and then what Catholics teach about Jesus' mother. Now, I want to say up front, you guys hopefully know this. I know my tried and true, consistent Catholic subscribers do, that, I love my Catholic friends. I love my Catholic followers. I have some really healthy, productive,

Starting point is 00:02:39 respectful debates and discussions with you guys in the comments, in the messages. I am never offended by your disagreement. I know that my supporters and friends who are Catholic, they hold sincere beliefs and they care about me and they care about their faith and they want to discuss those things. I have had these conversations with George Farmer, with Trent Horn, with Lila Rose, with Matt Walsh, with Michael Knowles. Not every time I talk to these people, do I debate them on theology, but I have debated all of those people on different biblical doctrines, and I still respect and admire those people so much, and I'm eager to link arms with them when it comes to the many, many issues that we agree on. One of my biggest questions about Catholic theology as a Protestant,

Starting point is 00:03:35 reformed Protestant myself, I hold to the tenets of the Reformation as a Baptist, has been about Mary. And this is something that I have asked almost all of the people I listed about, George Farmer and Trent Horn and Lila Rose. And because to me, I have not gotten an answer that I believe has given sufficient support for many of the dogmas that the Catholic Church teaches, I wanted to dig into them myself. And as I always like to do, I want to steal man the Catholic side. We have Catholics that work on this team that work in this company. And we sent the representation of the Catholic side of the dogmas of Mary to them and said, hey, is this fair? Like, is this really what you believe? That's how important it is to me to make sure that we

Starting point is 00:04:26 get that right, then I'll tell you the Protestant side of that, the biblical support for that, and then, of course, my perspective on it. And yes, there is an aspect of this that hopes to persuade, but as I said, it's a lot of information. Now, why are we talking about this? Well, a variety of reasons. Like I said, I'm curious about it myself. They've read a lot of Catholic and Protestant resources on it, but there was a debate that was sparked on X just the other day by Jack Posobic, and he is a fellow conservative that I also respect and really like. I don't have anything personal at all against Jack Posobic, but he put out a post on X that caused a lot of discussion. And he said, first he said, yes, this was first on July 16th. He said, Jesus did not have

Starting point is 00:05:11 brothers. And then he posted again until this week, I had no idea. People seriously thought Jesus had biological siblings and a lot of people responded to this on both sides of the issue. And he posted later that he still didn't get a sufficient argument from the Protestant side that Jesus did have brothers. Now, if you are an evangelical like me, you might be confused. You probably did not know that Catholics do not believe that Jesus had biological siblings because they believe in the perpetual virginity of Mary. What I found that I've talked about this a lot, is that especially in the Bible Belt, Protestants were not taught really anything about Catholicism. I actually think that Catholics probably grew up hearing a little bit more about

Starting point is 00:06:00 the Reformation, the negative parts of the Reformation and Protestantism, than Protestants did about any aspect, positive or negative about Catholicism. And so a lot of this is new information on both sides. So I hope Catholics and Protestants listening that we all gain a better understanding. of what each side believes. So because of this debate, I did not weigh it on X because I feel like I am like the token conservative evangelical that always wades into the Catholic theological discussions, which I kind of love. But I just didn't want to on social media. I wanted to take a whole episode to do that. So first, let's start with the Catholic view. Let's start with what Catholics actually believe about Mary. There are four main dogmas. And I'll explain what that means when it comes to

Starting point is 00:06:47 Catholic doctrine about Jesus's mother. Before we get into that, though, let me go ahead and tell you about our first sponsor. It's Carly Jean Los Angeles. I'm wearing Carly Jean Los Angeles right now. This nice autumn blue, I think it technically heliotrope, if you must know, this dress from Carly Jean, Los Angeles. I love it so much. I have another one in brown. I've been wearing both of them this summer because they're linen lightweight. They're also great transitional. So as we go from from summer into fall. And you kind of want to look like you're in autumn, but you can't wear a sweater depending on where you live.

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Starting point is 00:08:29 though. It is a Christian conference. We are going to be worshiping together. We are going to be talking about apologetics and theology, how to be a biblical woman, mom, steward of our bodies. We will wade into the tough political, cultural subjects, though, as we do. If you want to be challenged, if you want to be encouraged, if you want to be edified with like-minded Christian women and worship together with them, then you've got to come to share the arrows. It's October 11th outside of Dallas, Texas. You will not regret it. By the way, go ahead and use one of their first names plus the number 15 and you'll get 15% off your ticket. You just press the unlock button right there on Ticketmaster. Enter in, say, Hillary 15 or Ginger 15 and you'll get that 15% off.

Starting point is 00:09:14 share the arrows.com. So as I said, there are four main dogmas that the Catholic Church teaches are divinely revealed, a divinely revealed truths which all Catholics are required to believe. And these four dogmas shape their view in relationship to Mary. So a dogma is a definitive teaching or doctrine that is declared by the Catholic Church. And as I said, this is a requirement for all Catholics to believe. And these four dogmas are that Mary is the mother of God, two, the immaculate conception, three, perpetual virginity, and four, the assumption. So maybe the first two, you're thinking, okay, well, Protestants believe that to the mother of God, immaculate conception, except that's a little more nuanced and complex than that. Protestants and Catholics

Starting point is 00:10:12 actually do not believe the same things on those two points. But these are the four necessities. non-negotiable doctrines of Mary within the Roman Catholic Church. So the veneration of Mary, which just means deep respect or devotion, is supported by the catechism of the Catholic Church. The prayer through her, I would say through her to Jesus is something that is practiced by many Catholics, but that in itself is not actually a dogma, even though it is very pervasive among Catholic. So let's go through this first dogma. This first dogma is that Mary is the mother of God. This means God bearer. And as I said, this is a little bit layered. So let's get into

Starting point is 00:11:02 what this actually means. This is defined at the Council of Ephesus in 431A.D. long time ago, this dogma declares that Mary is the theotocos god bearer because she bore Jesus. And who is fully God and fully human. And so the logic is there. If Jesus is fully God and Mary gave birth to Jesus, then the logic, the math goes, that she is the mother of God. The Council of Ephesus was a formal assembly of bishops and church leaders to discuss and settle doctrinal matters.

Starting point is 00:11:40 And they emphasized that Mary is not only the mother of Jesus. And this was combating against this idea that was called Nestorianism at the time. And it tried to separate Jesus' humanity from Jesus' godness. And so that is why the Council of Ephesus at the time said, okay, well, because we have established this doctrine that Jesus was fully man and fully God, which of course we agree with, then we have to figure out was Mary just the mother of Jesus' humanity? or was she the mother of God himself?

Starting point is 00:12:17 And they decided that, okay, she is actually the mother of God. So St. Cyril is a bishop of Alexandria who strongly defended core beliefs about Jesus' divinity there. He said, if anyone does not confess that Emmanuel is truly God, and therefore the Holy Virgin is the mother of God, since she bore in the flesh the word of God made flesh, let him be an anathema. Here anathma is a curse. We see that in scripture. So let him be a curse. Let him be cast off.

Starting point is 00:12:48 So all Christians agree with that that Jesus is God and that Mary is Jesus' mother. However, I do want to say that as we will get into, the Protestant belief is a little bit different. And that distinction does actually matter. So that is one dogma, that Mary Theotokos is the mother. of God. The second dogma is immaculate conception. It's a dogma defined by Pope Pius the 9th in 1854 that states, quote, the most blessed Virgin Mary and the first instance of her conception by a singular grace and privilege granted by Almighty God in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the state of the human race, was preserved free from all stain of original sins. So if you don't know what

Starting point is 00:13:34 original sin is, that is the sin that we all inherit as sons and daughters of Adam. So the first man, Adam and Eve sinned in the garden. And the biblical belief is that we have inherited biblical or original sin from him and that Jesus washes away our original sin. So the, or all sin. The catechism of the Catholic Church states this statement, along with the idea of her assumption, which we'll talk about in a little bit in Article 9, paragraph 6. Finally, the Immaculate Virgin preserved from all state of original sin when the course of her earthly life was finished was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory and exalted by the Lord as queen over all things.

Starting point is 00:14:22 So also understand that the Catholic Church teaches that she has been exalted by God. She has been assumed into heaven as queen of all things. and she never had original sin that the rest of humanity have. However, they don't say the Catholic Church does not teach that she didn't need Jesus. They teach that Jesus' righteousness was applied to her retroactively so that she was born without the stain of sin before even Jesus was born. They cite Luke 128 where the angel Gabriel greets Mary. They argue that this is an implicit reference to the immaculate conception because the angel

Starting point is 00:15:01 says Hail Mary full of grace or favored one. And Catholic answers, this is an apologetics resource, would argue that using this term in the perfect sense saying that she is full of grace means that she is sinless, that she was without spot. So that is the argument there. Catholics believe that the teaching of Mary's immaculate conception originated in early Christianity and that it's been formalized as a dogma that Catholics are required to believe. And they also cite Augustine of Hippo, who also seemed to assert in 415 AD that Mary didn't have the same kind of sinfulness that you and I have. And they would argue that this is necessary in being the God bearer. The next dogma is perpetual virginity. This dogma claims.

Starting point is 00:15:59 that Mary remained a virgin before, during, and after Jesus's birth. It was defined by the Second Council of Constantinople in 553 AD. It gave her the title, A.E. Parthenos, I.e. Parthanos, I think I'm pronouncing that correctly, which means the ever virgin. So this is the dogma that supports Jacobosobics claim that Jesus never had any biological brothers and sisters or fully biological brothers and sisters because Catholic doctrine says that she must have been a virgin forever. There's a Catholic apologist by the name of Tim Staples that gives three reasons to believe this doctrine. He says that Mary made a vow of perpetual virginity to God before her betrothal to Joseph. And he infers that, if I'm understanding correctly, from Luke 134,

Starting point is 00:16:57 when she asks the angel, how will this be that I will conceive this baby since I am a virgin? And Staples wrote that a newly married woman would not ask the question, how shall this be? She would know unless, of course, that woman had taken a vow of virginity. So he argues, not what the Protestants have been taught, that she was just betrothed and engaged to Joseph, but he is inferring that she was already married. and she was a virgin and therefore she must have taken a vow of virginity and that that vow would have been

Starting point is 00:17:36 kept intact throughout her life. These apologists also cite the proto-evangelium of James, which is not in the biblical canon. It's not in the 66 books of the Bible. It's also not in the Apocrypha, so it's not in the Catholic biblical canon. But it's a text from the second century AD that it's used to defend this idea of perpetual virginity. It indicates that Mary was entrusted to Joseph to protect her virginity, that Jesus' siblings were Joseph's son from a previous marriage. And so, again, the idea that maybe he had half brothers and sisters, but it is important to know that the proto-evangelium of James is not actually considered even by Catholics to be a historical document by most scholars due to its late composition, its lack of corroboration in earlier sources,

Starting point is 00:18:26 more legendary elements, the idea of Mary living in a temple. It wasn't included in the New Testament canon for that reason, but it is relied upon by many Catholics to give them an idea of who Mary was and how she should be honored. All right, we've got more in this particular dogma in a second, but let me go ahead and pause and tell you about our next sponsor. It's WeHeart Nutrition. WeHeart Nutrition is awesome. They are a pro-life family-owned and operated supplement company. they make premium research back supplements for men and women at every life stage from preconception to pregnancy, postpartum menopause, and beyond every product is crafted with the most bioavailable ingredients so your body can actually absorb the vitamins that you're taking. I have been taking

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Starting point is 00:19:46 quality ingredients because they care so much about their customers and they care about honoring God and everything they do. Go to WeHeart Nutrition. dot com. Use my code Alley. You'll get 20% off your order. Try their new supplement, their wholesome bone support, so good for you. Go to weheartnutrition.com code Alley. Staples also argues that the angel's response to Mary and Luke 1 contains nuptial language that seems to go back to Ruth. So he cites Ruth 3.9 when Boaz says to Ruth, who are you? And she says, He answered, I am Ruth, your servant, spread your wings over your servant, for you are a redeemer.

Starting point is 00:20:35 And then he goes to Luke 135. When the angel says to Mary, the Holy Spirit will come upon you in the power of the most, I will overshadow you. Therefore, the child to be born will be called Holy the Son of God. So Staples argues that the Holy Spirit is Mary's spouse, but Joseph was her spouse and protector on this earth. But again, he would argue that they never consummated their marriage because of the supposed vow of virginity. He also refers to John 1926 when Jesus was crucified, nearing death,

Starting point is 00:21:03 gave his mother to the care, and gave his mother to the care of John, even though by law, their responsibility should have gone to the next eldest sibling. Because there were apparently no brothers and sisters present to take on this responsibility, Staples argues, he concludes that Jesus had none. This would be John 1926 through 27. Jesus saw his mother and the disciple whom he loves standing nearby. He said to his mother, woman, behold your son. He said to the disciple, behold your mother. Another argument that Jesus had no siblings is that the word brothers here, the original Greek, the original Aramaic could apply to cousins or near relatives. The Aramaic language didn't have a word for at the time. Okay, so that is the third dogma. Here is the fourth dogma.

Starting point is 00:21:52 This might be the one that you are most unfamiliar with if you are unfulmiliar with. If you are unfamiliar with Catholic doctrine. And that is the assumption into heaven. So this was declared by Pope Pius the 12th in 1950. And this dogma states that Mary at the end of her earthly life was assumed or taken up. So both her body and soul into heaven, just like Enoch and Elijah in the Old Testament, though the church does not definitively state whether Mary died and then was assumed or whether she actually didn't have a physical death and she was just assumed into heaven without dying. Pope Francis said this today. Looking at Mary assumed into heaven, we can say that humility is the way that leads to heaven. Pope John Paul II, he is a favorite pope, especially among a lot of conservative

Starting point is 00:22:43 Catholics. He said to understand the assumption, we must look to Easter, the great mystery of our salvation, which marks the passage of Jesus to the glory of the Father through the passion, death, and resurrection. Mary, who is made to share intimately in this mystery, and who also shared in its suffering, is associated on this day with the triumph of Christ. They argue, this is according to Catholic answers, again, an apologetics resource, that early Christians highly valued the relics of saints. And according to Catholic doctrine, saints are not just what Protestants believe in what we read in scripture, that saints are all the members of the household of God, of all Christians, there are different qualifications for particular saints in heaven and saints that you can pray to

Starting point is 00:23:30 in the Catholic Church. And so they argue that the early Christians highly valued the relics of saints, often preserving and honoring their bones, but we can't find any remains of Mary. And they would argue that that's odd. She must have been entombed or preserved in some way. No city neither Jerusalem nor Ephesus where she likely lived ever claimed to have her bones. or bodily remains. And so it is assumed that she was assumed into heaven. Catholic Apologist Tim Staples argues that manuscript evidence, ancient handwritten documents and fragments dating from the late 3rd to 6th century supports transitous Maryi, passage of Mary. This is, again, not considered scripture, but these are different documents that were

Starting point is 00:24:15 written hundreds of years after Jesus died that indicate that perhaps Mary was assumed. There is also a document called the account of St. John, the theologian of the Dormition of the Holy Mother of God. And this is an example of literature that tries to explain what might have happened to Mary in Catholic belief. The Holy Mother of God answered and said to me, the Jews have sworn that after I have died, they will burn my body. And I, John, answered and said to her, thy holy and precious body will by no means see corruption. I do not think that's interesting because I immediately think of a passage in the Old Testament that is a prophecy of Jesus who says that his body will never see corruption. Your holy one, your chosen will never see corruption. So just interesting

Starting point is 00:25:08 language there. Do not think that it is now the resurrection, but on this account you have risen out of your tombs that you may go to give greeting to an honor and wonder and wonder working of the mother of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. As far as biblical evidence, Catholics refer to Revelation 12. This is the one that I see most often, verses 1 through 6 to support the claim that Mary is in heaven right now, not just her soul, but her physical body as well. So this is Revelation 12. A great sign appeared in heaven. A woman clothed with the sun with the moon under her feet and on her head a crown of 12 stars. She was pregnant, was crying out in birth pains, and the agony of giving birth, another sign appeared in heaven, behold, a great red dragon with seven heads and tin horns.

Starting point is 00:25:53 And on his head, seven diademes. If you are not a Christian, I do not recommend starting in the book of Revelation. His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven and cast them onto the earth. And then it talks more about this woman that she gave birth to a male child who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God into his throne. And the woman fled into the wilderness where she has a place prepared by God in which she is to be nourished for 1,260 days. So this is in Times prophecy. We've done episodes on the end times. We won't get into all the eschatology right now. But the Catholic belief is that this is talking

Starting point is 00:26:33 about Mary and that this points to her assumption, that her body is also there. And then we can talk about the veneration of Mary. And this is probably what evangelicals, all Protestants, are most familiar with. It is, and I'm just explaining the Protestant side here, very uncomfortable for Protestants to see how Mary is venerated in the Catholic Church, because it looks like worship. However, I do want to make clear that the Catholic Church says they condemn, they say that they condemn the worship of Mary and the worship of anyone outside of the Father's Son in Holy Spirit, the catechism of the Catholic Church does describe Mary, as I said, as the queen over all things. Though they would say she is subordinate and dependent upon Christ, they also call her an advocate,

Starting point is 00:27:28 a helper, a benefactress, a benefactress, and a mediocratrix. Mediatrics refers to her role as an intercessor who facilitates the distribution of God's grace to humanity through her prayers. So the prayers that she takes herself and also that she gets from Catholics, who pray to her, they believe that she is carrying those prayers to God. The Catholic Church also encourages and trusting all cares and petitions to Mary, claiming she prays for believers as she did for herself. And again, they cite revelation, the idea that saints in heaven are praying, are looking down, and they're praying for us. They would say that this supports the idea of praying to Catholic saints and specifically praying to Mary.

Starting point is 00:28:15 since she has this special place is the mother of God. The belief is that she is closest to Jesus, so why not pray to the person closest to Jesus and ask Mary to pray for you? So that is the logic behind that. There are also some other ideas that aren't necessarily dogmas, but stem from dogmas and doctrines in the Catholic Church that we see among Catholics today, someone named Catholic Pat on X, Patrick Neve. He said, Mary was and is.

Starting point is 00:28:45 is necessary for salvation. Otherwise, she wouldn't have been a part of it. If we are to give the benefit of the doubt there, maybe this has just meant that necessary in the sense that she did a very vital thing in giving birth to Jesus. I'm not sure if that's exactly what he meant, or if he means that you have to actually pray to Mary to receive salvation. And then we've got someone named Anthony who also seems to be a Catholic influencer on X. If you do not accept Mary as your personal mother and intercessor, you cannot have Christ as your personal Lord and Savior. He is a podcaster, host of the Avoiding Babylon podcast.

Starting point is 00:29:22 And so I've seen this kind of belief purported often by Catholics, that Mary has to be your personal mother, your intercessor, she is your way to Jesus. So as I said, the Catholic Church says that you don't worship anyone except for God himself. The veneration, however, of Mary, is extremely prominent, I would say, and central in the Catholic Church. There is a procession, a festival that happens every year that celebrates the Lady of Guadalupe. This is celebrating the Virgin Mary.

Starting point is 00:29:57 Here is an example of that procession happening last year in San Diego. 1,000 members of the Catholic Church stepping off in celebration of the Virgin Mary and the hope they say she gave the world. I've always been committed to my religion and I enjoy being a part of it because of the sense of community. That's why so many of the floats had Virgin Mary representations. In 2023, this kind of thing is also something that's reported on quite often by Catholics around the world. Churchgoers in Mexico claim to have witnessed a miracle after spotting a statue of Virgin Mary that appeared to have real tears pouring down her cheeks.

Starting point is 00:30:44 And then you also have a lot of people talking about Marian apparitions, claiming that Mary appeared to them in some kind of vision or came to them and conveyed a message to them in their dreams. There are a variety of hymns and songs sung to Mary that we can see within the Catholic Church. An emphasis on praying the rosary is extremely central to Catholic practice on a daily basis. Now, we will say the rosary is meditating on different mysteries of the life of Christ. And those different mysteries do have a basis in scripture. There are biblical citations within the rosary. But you see kind of the mentality of praying the rosary here. There is someone by the name of Rosary

Starting point is 00:31:36 son on Acts who said pray the rosary daily let mary guide your soul to christ and that is it seems the belief among many catholics that she is basically the shirpa and the guide of the christian soul or of the soul to jesus christ and to salvation um there are some other arguments that we'll get into um about mary believing that she is the new Eve. And in fact, they argue that when Jesus calls Mary woman in a couple references in the New Testament, that he is actually referring to her as the new Eve. There is also an argument that Mary is the new arc of the covenant described in Exodus 25, 10 through 13, and Hebrews 9, 3 through 4. The ark of the covenant is a gold-covered chest, symbolizing holiness, purity, consecration to God,

Starting point is 00:32:36 containing stone tablets, Aaron Staff, and manna of bread. And they argue that Mary is actually the New Testament mirror of the Old Testament arc of the covenant because she is pure and holy and carried the way of salvation in Jesus. And they would cite again, Luke 1, when the angel appeared to Mary and that the Holy Spirit will come upon you. And so now she contained, this way of salvation in a similar fashion to what the Ark of the Covenant did. Catholics would argue. And then you also have various Old Testament passages describing the Ark of the Covenant that they say looks a lot like Mary in the New Testament. All right, a couple more things on that. Let me go ahead and pause and tell you about our next sponsor. And that is Good Ranchers.

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Starting point is 00:34:23 That's Goodrachers.com, Code Alley. So putting a bow on the Catholic side of this and then we'll get into the Protestant view of Mary. Catholics believe that Mary as the mother of God and the queen of heaven. Here's all prayers directed to her due to her exalted state in heaven where she united with God's will participates in his divine plan. As I already said, the catechism of the Catholic Church calls her the mediocrats. And so she is a mediator between us and Jesus. Catholics argue that her intercession is supported by her actions at the wedding at Cana.

Starting point is 00:35:03 And we talked about this with Lila. She is part of Jesus's first miracle where in John 2 on the third day there was a wedding at Cana in Galilee. The mother of Jesus was there. Jesus was also invited into the wedding with his disciples. When the wine ran out, the mother of Jesus said to him, they have no wine. And Jesus said to her, woman, what does this have to do with me? hour has not yet come. His mother said to the servants, do whatever he tells you. And actually on that part of the episode, we had to go back in and clarify a little bit because it was misquoted

Starting point is 00:35:39 at first of Jesus saying, do whatever she tells you. But this is Mary saying, do whatever Jesus tells you. But they do cite that passage. Catholic cite Revelation 5'8 and 8 3 through 4 with the elders and angels in heaven offer prayers to the saints of God. The Catholic Church doesn't claim Mary is omniscient, but holds that God grants her, grants her the supernatural ability to be aware of prayers and to carry them to God. Big responsibility, millions and millions of praying Catholics on earth that the Catholic Church claims she has the capacity and the power to not only hear, understand, but consciously bring to God. Okay, so that is the Catholic view of Mary. I hope that my beloved Catholics out there, that you felt like it was as fair and as accurate

Starting point is 00:36:24 and as thorough as possible. We really worked so hard to do that. Let me tell you the Protestant view. And you guys know I'm a Protestant. I'm not going to pretend that I don't believe this and that I don't believe that it's backed by scripture because I absolutely do. But I will also try to be as neutral as I can in describing this before I get into what I really think is important for us to remember when it comes to any doctrine, but especially I think the doctrine of Mary. So most Protestants hold to the doctrine. doctrine of Sola Scripps, which I know is a big sticking point between Protestants and Catholics. But let me explain something about Sola Scriptura. So it's part of the five Sola's that were

Starting point is 00:37:05 really established and popularized after the Reformation. The Reformation happened in the 1500s with Martin Luther, who was a Catholic himself. He had issues with what was going on in the Catholic Church, what was going on with the papacy. He was not trying to leave the Catholic Church. He was not trying to start Protestantism. He just had problems. 99 problems to be specific. And he posted those before the days of social media. And that spread like wildfire because a lot of people had problems with some of the practices of the Catholic Church at the time. I don't think anyone intentionally was trying to create new denominations, but people wanted to read the Bible for themselves. And they wanted to understand the gospel. They wanted to

Starting point is 00:37:45 understand the way of salvation. And Martin Luther, when he started that spark that lit the fire of the Reformation, one of the best things the Reformation gave us was access to scriptures and understanding that salvation is through faith in Christ alone. So Solis Scribura is a principle that comes from that time that does not say that we don't care about our churches, that we don't care about authority, that we don't care about tradition, that is not true. We do believe in tradition. We believe in sound theology, and we believe in the authority of the local church and of course the authority of Christ. However, we believe that all of these human authorities must be in submission to the God-breathed, inerrant, infallible authority of

Starting point is 00:38:33 scripture. So if human beings say anything is a doctrine or a dogma, we go back to the inerrant, infallible word of God and say, but what does the Bible say? And the Catholic Church actually also holds that the Bible is divinely inspired, that it is inerrant, that it is infallible. Now, there are some books that Catholics include in the Bible that Protestants don't. There's good reason for that, by the way. It's not just Protestants willy-nilly taking out those books of the Bible. So it's important to know that, but that's another discussion for another day. But both Protestants and Catholics say that the Bible is the word of God inerrant and infallible. It's simply that Catholics believe that the authority of the Catholic Church

Starting point is 00:39:15 is equal to the authority of the Bible, we would say the authority of any human institution is in submission to scripture. So we believe that's the foundation for this. So when we are trying to understand who Mary is, we are looking at scripture. And there are some things that we see. And there are some things that we don't see. So grace to you, which is John McArthur's ministry, says this, while acknowledging that Mary was the most extraordinary of women, it is appropriate to inject a word of caution against the common tendency to elevate her too much. She was, after all, a woman, John MacArthur explains, not a dimmy goddess or a quasi-deiform creature who somehow transcended the rest of her race.

Starting point is 00:40:05 Catholic apologist Paul Maxi admits that the Marian dogmas of immaculate conception, perpetual virginity and assumption are not explicitly taught in the Bible, but Catholics lean on tradition and on storytelling there to kind of come up with these dogmas. So it is not really argued by Catholics that this is explicitly seen in scripture, which is, of course, one of Protestants big problems with it. Protestants agree that Mary is the mother of Jesus. So let's go through these dogmas, mother of God, theotocos. Protestants agree that Mary is the mother of Jesus, we agree that Jesus is fully God and fully human. And thus we might affirm the title Theotokos, but we would argue that at the Council of Ephesus, when the transfer from

Starting point is 00:40:54 Theotokos to Mother of God took place, that something else took place in that translation and transfer, that has caused a lot of confusion. And it lies in an implication that Mary is being ascribed some level of divinity. Because what we must be careful of is to not argue that God has a source, because that would be heresy. I think even the Catholic Church would agree with that, that God was created or that he was initiated by Mary, that she was a part of God's beginning because we know that God is the same yesterday today and forever. Jesus Christ is the same yesterday today and forever 138, Hebrews 138, that he is the uncreated one, that he doesn't have a beginning. So while it is true that she is the mother of Jesus and Jesus is God, we just want to make

Starting point is 00:41:52 sure that we are drawing a distinction there that Mary is not God's source, which I hope my Catholic friends would agree with. So that's more of just ensuring that we are really clear on that point. Second dogma, immaculate conception, this idea that Mary was born without any original sin, we reject that because we do not see any support for that whatsoever in scripture. For example, this argument that says in Luke 1 when the angel hailed Mary as full of grace. Yes, Jesus was also described as full of grace and truth, but also Stephen, who was a martyr who shared the gospel with unbelieving people in the book of Acts, he was also described as full of grace, full of grace and power. And so I don't think that Catholic doctrine teaches that Stephen also was without original sin. However, if we are going to argue that anyone described as someone as described as full of grace is without original sin, then we would have to argue again that I think that Stephen is too. But of course he's not. We read in Romans 323 that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. In Luke 147, Mary even talks about needing a savior herself. Luke 147,

Starting point is 00:43:21 says, and my spirit rejoices in God, my Savior. We would argue that the immaculate conception that Mary doesn't have original sin lacks any support in the early church, that it was denied by several church fathers, and that we see no evidence for that in scripture, which we agree as Catholics and Protestants, is an authority, an errant, infallible authority. this next idea of perpetual virginity that and this of course is what sparked this whole debate this week that Mary had made this vow of virginity and that she never had sexed with Joseph. I actually found a lot of the posts about this at the time from Catholics defending this idea of perpetual virginity very disturbing because I found them very crass talking about Joseph that Joseph wouldn't

Starting point is 00:44:18 want, I can't even say what some of the people said that Joseph wouldn't want to, you know, insert sexual act, you know, fill in the blank there with Mary after her womb and after her birth canal had birthed Jesus is basically what he was saying. And that seems to forget the fact that sex in marriage is holy, that it is beautiful, that it is one of the first commands that God gives Adam and Eve to be fruitful and multiply. Isn't it? It's not some dirty, thing. Joseph wouldn't have been dirty Mary or making her unclean by having sex with his wife. The two shall become one flesh. This mystery is profound, but I am telling you that it refers to Christ in the church. That's Ephesians 5. Wow, that union of a man and a woman is actually a

Starting point is 00:45:06 reflection of an eternal reality. The redemptive story of the marriage between Christ and his bride, the church. And so that mentality that she was so pure that she couldn't have been dirtied by her own husband through sex is just wrong. Like it doesn't even match the Catholic mentality of what marriage and church is. But that aside, we also simply do not see support for that idea. We see in Matthew 125, but Joseph knew her not, so new in the biblical sins, didn't have sex with her until she had given birth to a son. And he called his name Jesus. According to theologians, C.S. Keener, reading of Heos suggests. So that word until, that Greek word for until, suggests a change after the stated time. And this is supported by references to Jesus's siblings. And there are

Starting point is 00:46:03 several references to Jesus's siblings. For example, John 212. After this, Jesus went down to Copernium with his mother and his brothers and his disciples. And they stayed there for a few days. And the argument is over this word Adelphoi, meaning from the same womb. Some people are arguing, I would say Catholics are arguing, that this Greek word could actually mean cousins, but actually according to Thayer's Greek lexicon, it literally means from the same womb. Also, Luke 2.7 describes Jesus as Mary's firstborn, prototocos, implying that she had other children later. If Jesus were her only child, the term only begotten monogenes, hopefully I'm saying all these Greek words correctly, would likely have been used.

Starting point is 00:46:56 So he's referred to as the firstborn throughout the Gospels. He is also referred to as someone with siblings. And Mary is referred to as a mother who has multiple children. In Acts 114 and John 7.5, they distinguished Jesus' brothers from the apostles. And note their initial disbelief in him, supporting the idea that they were close family members, actual brothers, not just relatives or associates. We see that in Acts 1, 13 through 14. In John 7.5, we read for not even his brothers, not just his friends, not just his disciples,

Starting point is 00:47:35 not even his brothers believed in him. Matthew 13, 55 through 56, describes Jesus as the carpenter. son with Mary as his mother and his brothers, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas, and all of his sisters, presenting them as a family unit which makes interpreting brothers and sisters as cousins or relatives less likely. And also, we don't have any biblical or historical evidence for the idea that Joseph was his stepfather, that he was his, that he was married before and that he had previous children. This idea that Mary took a vow of virginity. that's also not supported by scripture because Mary said,

Starting point is 00:48:19 how will this be since I am a virgin while she was betrothed to Joseph as we read in the gospel of Luke and the other gospels as well? So that would have been before their marriage, before they had consummated their marriage. So she still would have been a virgin but engaged to be married to Joseph. And so I would say it is an assumption that comes from other Catholic assumptions about Mary to say that she was immaculately conceived herself, that she was without original sin, and that also she was a perpetual virgin. And I simply don't think it is necessary to believe those things about Mary to respect her or honor her or look at her prayer in the book of Luke

Starting point is 00:49:05 and say, wow, that was beautiful. She is honorable. She is respectable. And we can look to her as some kind of example of humility. I don't think these dogmas are necessary to be able to say that, and we should be able to say those things. All right, let me get to the last sponsor, and then we will close out on this last dogma, veneration, and then what I think is really important to know in all of this. Fellowship Home Loans is doing work not just by the book, but by the book. They care about biblical principles. They care about not only getting you the loan that you need, but also doing so in a way that honors integrity, your Christian values, they want to glorify God in everything they do. When you are making a huge purchase like a home,

Starting point is 00:49:54 you want to make sure that you not only have the money lined up, but that you are working with the right people. And that's what you will get with Mike and Brian from Fellowship Home Loans. I had a listener who said that Fellowship Home Loans was an answer to prayer. They made the home buying process so much easier. That's what you're going to find with their amazing customer service at Fellowship Home Loans. For my listeners, they are offering a $500 credit at closing. When you go to fellowshiphomeloans.com slash Alley, that's fellowship homeowners.com slash alley, nationwide mortgage bankers, DBA, Fellowship Home Loans, Equal Housing Lender, NMLS, number 819-382. This last dogma, the assumption of Mary, we definitely don't see biblical evidence.

Starting point is 00:50:44 for even Trent Horn of Catholic Answers says that Revelation 12 that we mentioned earlier, that we read earlier is a symbolic text and that this is not actually sufficient to prove that Mary was assumed into heaven. That is what Catholic answers says. But Catholics obviously believe that this helps their case, that even though this is symbolic and poetic language and revelation, that this could support the idea of her being bodily assumed. I would argue as a Protestant, that that is a stretch. And again, just completely unnecessary for the rightful honoring of Mary. There is no historical evidence whatsoever that Mary is assumed into heaven. And I would say it's dangerous territory because you are ascribing to her God-like characteristics that do not

Starting point is 00:51:35 exist in scripture. And actually, I would argue, as I'll argue in a little bit, inhibit us from true and unadulterated worship of Jesus. Now Catholics argue, as I said, that they don't worship Mary and that they don't offer her undue reference, but that they see her as a vehicle to God. But I think what's important here is that Catholics do call her the mediocrats and do believe that she is carrying prayers to God, that she is a mediator. But I think it's important here. to look at a few passages. Number one, the Bible does not direct Christians to pray to anyone other than God. We do not see this in the Gospels.

Starting point is 00:52:25 We do not see this in the epistles. Jesus actually corrected those who gave Mary undue reference because she was Jesus' mother. And Luke 11, 27 through 28, as he said these things, Jesus, a woman in the crowd raised her voice and said to him, Blessed is the womb who bore you and the breasts at which you nursed. But he said, blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it. Jesus had a few opportunities, spoken with Luke 11, the wedding at Cana, to give special reverence and special honor to marry. And he does not. He chooses not to.

Starting point is 00:53:07 And actually, he takes this as a lesson. This is a line that I could see a lot of Catholics repeating. Blessed is the womb that bore you and the breast at which you nursed. And Jesus doesn't say yes and amen. Jesus doesn't say, yes, this is the prayer that you should pray. Jesus says, actually, blessed rather, are those who hear the word of God and keep it. That seems to me that he is saying that the blessing, the specialness, the sacredness is for all. Mary and everyone else who hears the word of the Lord and keeps it.

Starting point is 00:53:44 We also read that clearly in Hebrews 1416 that we can approach the throne of God ourselves. Hebrews 416, let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need. And this is such an important point that I want you to know is that if you are a Christian, Christian, if you have, according to Ephesians 2, been saved by grace through faith, you have full access in confidence to go before the throne of God because you have been entirely made clean. Yes, even if you send this morning, even if you haven't gone to confession yet, even if you haven't been confirmed in the Catholic Church, even if you have not been baptized, if you have been saved by grace through faith in Christ, it is so important for you to know that

Starting point is 00:54:39 this is the gospel that you can approach God with confidence. Not with shame, but with confidence because you have been covered fully once and for all by the blood of Christ. That's what it means to be justified, that Jesus is your advocate. He is your one advocate and he is the only sufficient one because he is the only one without sin and he died to save you and he is God himself. And he is the one Christian who stands before you, looks to God and says, do not give them the wrath they deserve, give them the grace that they need because of me, because of the perfection that I have given them, I have taken away their sins, I have given them these clean robes of righteousness. That is Jesus's job and Jesus's job alone. First Timothy 2.5 says,

Starting point is 00:55:27 for there is one God and there is one mediator between God and men. One. For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus. Hebrews 725 says, consequently he is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through Him, through Christ, since he always lives to make intercession for them. God is our intercessor. The Holy Spirit is the one who helps us in our weakness. Romans 826 through 27, likewise, the Spirit helps us in our weakness, for we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. And he who searches hearts, that's the Holy Spirit, knows what is the mind of the Spirit

Starting point is 00:56:13 because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. So really we see God, Jesus, the Spirit, all right there working in our hearts and minds and no mention of Mary, no mention of anyone in heaven. 2 Corinthians 11, you also must help us by prayer so that many will give things on our behalf for the blessing granted to us through the prayers of many. So while we ask our fellow Christians for prayers, there is no indication. I would argue that the Revelation passage doesn't support this at all, that we should be praying to saints or that we should be praying to Mary, that people in heaven here, our prayers have the capacity to understand multiple languages and the supernatural power

Starting point is 00:56:57 to carry them to Jesus. And I would say not only do we not read that, but it is unnecessary because your mediator is Christ. Your mediator is Christ. He is the one that carries the prayers for you. I don't believe that we see evidence of Mary as the New Eve. I don't believe that we see evidence of Mary as the new arc of the covenant. I don't see evidence that when Jesus calls Mary woman, that he is paying her special honor,

Starting point is 00:57:28 that he is secretly indicating that she is the new. Eve. I think Mary is extremely special. She has an extremely special role. I mean, what an incredible honor. I think we should honor her. I think we should look to her example, but I do not think that we should elevate her to a place where we do not see her elevated by Jesus himself. We don't see her elevated by the apostles. We don't see her elevated by the writers of the epistles, even by the gospel writers. I mean, think about this. If Mary was the this central to the Christian faith, if it is true that Mary has always been honored in this way from the very beginning of Christianity, then we would see it somewhere in the New Testament.

Starting point is 00:58:13 We would see it somewhere in the epistles. We would see some kind of veneration. There's some kind of indication. And I could argue the same thing for the authority of Peter as being the Pope. that's something else we never see in the New Testament, nor do we see the level of veneration of Mary, this idea that she can intercede for us and of just a reminder that there is a name for praying to the dead. And I'm not talking about just spiritually dead because of course we know that Christians are spiritually alive in heaven, but praying through those or to those who are not actually here on earth, and it is necromancy. And it is not something that Christians should engage in.

Starting point is 00:59:03 And that's how strongly I feel about this. And I understand that there are going to be a lot of Catholic listeners and friends who are offended by that. But I do want to explain the Protestant belief on that. And my belief is that this gets in the way of seeing Christ as your fully sufficient savior and mediator. R. C. Sprole, he was a Protestant theologian. He said, Mary is not divine. She's a sinner saved by grace just as we are. But what a gracious, gracious, gracious sinner she was. I agree with that. I read in this text a willingness to do the will of the Lord. That's what we can learn from Mary, how to be in subjection to God as she was. And I agree with that. I think that we should look to her humility and look to her subjection. see it and submission to God and see it as a great example of what a godly woman looks like. But I don't believe that we should be praying to her. I don't believe that we should believe these dogmas that are not supported by scripture.

Starting point is 01:00:08 And again, I think it gets in the way of the unadulterated worship of Jesus and the beauty of the gospel, which gives you full access to God's throne through Christ right now. all right that's all we've got time for today we will be back here on friday

Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 1224 | The Mary Debate: Catholics vs. Protestants

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