Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 1232 | John Mark Comer & the Penal Substitutionary Atonement Debate

Starting point is 00:00:00 Popular evangelical author and former pastor, John Mark Comer, seems to deny penal substitutionary atonement. What does this mean and why does it really, really matter? We've got all of this and more on today's episode of Relatable. It's brought to you by our friends at Good Ranchers. Go to Good Ranchers.com. Use code Allie at checkout. That's good ranchers.com code Alley. Hey guys, welcome to Relatable. Happy Wednesday. Hope everyone is having a wonderful week so far. All right, we pulled you guys on Instagram and we asked you, which two subjects do you want to hear about? And you guys chose PSA or penal substitutionary atonement. And if you're like, well, that sounds boring.

Starting point is 00:00:53 And I don't even know what any of those things mean. It's not boring. It's actually very fascinating. And it has to do with something that is going on in the Christian evangelical world right now. Before we get into that debate and most importantly, what the Bible has to say, about what Christ actually accomplished on the cross. I just want to take a moment to talk about something cool that happened. Well, part of it's not cool and it's sad, but part of it is really cool.

Starting point is 00:01:22 So the United States Court of Appeals for the Fifth Circuit just issued a decision. And this decision was about a case between an LGBTQ campus group on West Texas A&M and the university itself. The university banned drag queens and drag queen performances on campus. And then this LGBTQ group sued the university. And unfortunately, the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals said, no, you can't ban drag queens. This is a First Amendment violation. Well, the dissent in this, what I think was a terribly decided case, was written by a judge by the name of Judge James Ho, who is an amazing constitutionalist judge, and he wrote a very compelling dissent against the majority in this case.

Starting point is 00:02:22 And on page 34 of this decision within his dissent, he said this. He cites an argument. but quote if we accept that people can change genders or even if we don't but or even if we don't but agree to be polite and call a man she then why shouldn't she be allowed to play women's sports or bathe naked in an all women's space why shouldn't she be allowed to enter women's abuse houses or be transferred to a women's prison why accept one lie not the whole thing end quote ali beth stuckie toxic empathy pages 55 to 55 to 50 I just thought that that was such an honor that the book was included, that this quote was included. It was used in his larger argument that this is not just a siloed, isolated event. This, the acceptance of the idea that a man can dress up and actually become a she or become a woman infiltrates every part of a university or an institution and has an effect on other policies. that affect the rights and the fairness and the privacy of other people. And so you're accepting one part of the lie by saying you must allow drag shows that's going to

Starting point is 00:03:42 affect all other parts of an institution as well. And I was very honored that toxic empathy was included in such a consequential case, even though it didn't go the direction that we wanted. And Judge James Ho has been discussed very often as on the short list for potential Supreme court justices should a Republican president get another pick. So I thought that that was awesome. And I'm just thankful to you guys that you have allowed toxic empathy to become such a conversation piece for so many people. This is not about me. It's really about what God does, but also just about us in the conversations that we have been having for a long time about the

Starting point is 00:04:28 misuse and the weaponization of Christian compassion for nefarious, destructive, and even demonic means. So thank you guys. Thank you guys for your support for how you've read the book, how you've talked about the book, how you've shared it, and just your support of this show, too. It really does make an impact, and I just praise God for that. All right, let's get into this very important topic of penal substitutionary atonement. The reason we're talking about this now, This, of course, is not a new argument. It's been happening among Christians for a long time. It's because a very prominent evangelical pastor by the name of John Mark Comer, he posted on his Instagram story a picture of a book by Andrew Remington Relera.

Starting point is 00:05:16 And it's called Lamb of the Free recovering the varied sacrificial understandings of Jesus' death. And John Mark Comer wrote. over his picture of this book that he posted. One of the most important academic books I've read in years. Next, I'll read rebuttals, but this seems to be the final biblical-slash-execidal knockout blow to penal substitutionary atonement or PSA. Who would have guessed it would have come out, come not from liberals, quote, unquote, he says, but from scholars of Leviticus, highly recommend for your thoughtful consideration. Now, John Mark Homer is not just a random guy. He's got a lot of influence. He is the best-selling author of books like The Ruthless Elimination of Hurry. That's probably the one that you've heard of. Also, practicing the way, which is now the name of the ministry that he runs. He was a pastor for 20 years of a church out in Portland. And now he lives in L.A. running this ministry. But he is all about slowing down the

Starting point is 00:06:25 of life, and some would argue he has waded into the realm of Eastern mysticism. So we'll talk more about who John Mark Comer actually is and what he really teaches, but more importantly, what is penal substitutionary atonement? Why is this an argument and why does it really, really matter for Christians to get this right? Before we get into all of it, let me go ahead and pause and tell you about our first sponsor for the day. And actually, before I tell you about our first sponsor, I'm going to tell you about Share the Arrows brought to you by our friends at Carly Jean Los Angeles.

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Starting point is 00:10:30 JMC. Because we got penal substitutionary atonement. We've got John Mark Comer. It's a lot. So JMC, PSA, let's go. JMC wrote this book several years ago. The Ruthless Elimination of Hurry I have read this book. I think there's some good things in it. Now, I remember being thrown off. I think I read it maybe in 2020 or 2021. I remember being slightly thrown off because within the book, he says, you know, I live in Portland. And so I'm slightly sympathetic to socialism. That is not an exact word or exact phrasing. But he might have been a little bit tongue in cheek, but he was saying, look, I'm kind of, you know, I have to lean socialist at least a little bit living in this area of the country. And I just remember thinking even something that is maybe considered a tongue in cheek aside or.

Starting point is 00:11:25 a little, you know, silly, parenthetical part, I'm just thinking, okay, would you get away with saying, oh, you know, I'm just a little bit fascist? Would you get away? Would someone get away with saying that he's just a little bit Nazi? Of course not, but people don't see socialism and communism as evil as they see fascism and Nazism and they should because they are just as evil. Like, actually, communism has killed more people than fascism has. communism is responsible for the brutal deaths, the starvation, the torture, the famine, the politically motivated murders of tens of millions of people just in the last 100 years alone. So when there was like a tongue-in-cheek joke about maybe at least a little bit subscribing to an ideology

Starting point is 00:12:15 that is so disgusting and evil and murderous, I was like, okay, well, I can see a little bit of what is happening here. and that is so common in the evangelical world to just be a little bit socialist and just say you're a little bit social justice and you are hate on Western civilization just a little bit to prove to people that you're some kind of rebellious radical. I just don't like it. I just don't like it. I don't think that we should pretend or even a little bit be a part of any kind of left-wing or progressive ideology that is so anti-God and anti-human. Okay. So that was just one thing that is not the only thing that people have trouble with when it comes to John Mark Comer, and we'll get into that in just a little bit. But so his book, Ruthless Elimination of Hurry, it talks about the negative effects of a fast-paced, busy lifestyle.

Starting point is 00:13:06 And he talks about going through this journey himself and how we can adopt a slower and simpler way of living to navigate the demands of modern life. A lot of good tools in there. I certainly don't think everything he wrote and there is wrong or bad. It's actually helpful in some ways. And then he also wrote the book, Practicing the Way, a Guide for Following Jesus in the Modern Era. So he outlines the concept of a rule of life, a structured set of habits and practices modeled after the lifestyle of Jesus and his early followers. So this is kind of again going off of the idea that we should be setting rhythms for our life that are centered around Christ and

Starting point is 00:13:44 what he has called us to not the busy demands of everything else going on, which of course I agree with. again a little bit about him 20 years he passed her Bridgetown church in Portland then he stepped down a few years ago and he has been extremely influential when it comes to a lot of evangelical teaching he sold a lot of books and a lot of people really like John Mark Comer. Now a lot of people also have problems with John Mark Comer so let's get into that just a little bit just to kind of set us up for why we're even talking about this right now, because this was all over Christian X over the weekend. Pastor and author, Gary Gilly, writes about Comer's rise in popularity with young Christians, especially in Gen Z. He says he has tapped into the unrest,

Starting point is 00:14:36 the emptiness, the confusion, and exhaustion that we all feel at times, and which is escalating in our world, and he is offering seemingly fresh answers in appealing ways. Gilly points out that Comer's ideas mirrored the spiritual formation movement that was started by Richard Foster and Dallas Willard in the 1970s and 80s. It encouraged Protestants to adopt ancient Catholic and Orthodox mystical practices that were used by monks or early church figures like contemplative prayer and solitude, aiming for a direct personal experience with God. He goes on to critique this.

Starting point is 00:15:10 He says, there are the time-tested practical Christian disciplines that we're all familiar with, things like corporate and personal Bible study, worship, prayer, discipleship, and service. On the other hand, many of the leading voices, including this one, and the spiritual formation movement, stress the need for more intuitive interpretations of spirituality, more experiential. They encourage believers to incorporate a wide variety of extra-biblical spiritual practices, such as contemplative prayer, silence, meditation, not just meditating on God's Word, but the emptying of the mind, creative expression, and yoga. So I would say that a lot of this is kind of a synthesis of Eastern mysticism and Christianity. Gilly notes

Starting point is 00:15:55 similarities between Comer and emergent church leaders like Rob Bell. Now Rob Bell is just an out-and-out heretic at this point, but he said that there's crossover, highlighting that Comer's opening quote and practicing the way, may you be covered in the dust of your rabbi, appears in Rob Bell's short film Dust and his book Velvet Elvis. And he's, He suggests that Comer repackages Rob Bell's ideas for a new generation. Now, I'm sure that John Mark Comer would probably have his own disputes with that description, but just trying to describe what a lot of people have issues with. In a 2011 article, evangelical theologian, Al Mueller, whom we've had on the show several times,

Starting point is 00:16:37 he wrote about Rob Bell's controversy and the emerging church movement controversy by saying that that's a new form of cultural Christianity and that he's playing fast and loose with the gospel. Rob Bell is not John Mark Comer at this point and that he is purveying false teachings and criticized Rob Bell for towing the line of universalism, which is absolutely what Rob Bell did. So some worry that John Mark Comer is going in the same direction. Reformed Baptist theologian Tim Challey's critiques JMCs, JMC's practicing the way. for promoting mysticism through spiritual practices that involve, quote, in expectation of receiving original and unmediated revelation from God, which we know that the revelation, the special revelation

Starting point is 00:17:28 that God has given us is through His Word. Of course, the Holy Spirit can still prompt us, can still convict us, can still compel us to say and to move in the direction that God wants us to go, but we are not going to uncover new previously undiscovered truths that are not in scripture. Chalys argues that Comer redefined the gospel, that he moves away from the traditional evangelical understanding of penal substitutionary atonement. So even in this book, some people have been talking about John Mark Comer's evolution for a while and would probably argue that his announcement that he doesn't love PSA or doesn't seems to not agree with, PSA is not that much of a surprise. Chally states that in his book that John Mark Comer especially

Starting point is 00:18:20 abominates the gospel of street preachers and its message of repent of your sin so you won't go to hell. He suggests, Chali suggests that Comer's gospel is instead live like Jesus and live for Jesus so other people can become interested in Jesus. Comer argues the gospel is that Jesus is the ultimate power in the universe and that life with him is now available to all through his birth, life teachings, miracles, death, resurrection, ascension, and the gift of the spirit, Jesus has saved, is saved, and will save all creation. And through apprenticeship to Jesus, we can enter his kingdom and into the inner life of God himself. Now, what I think is interesting about that description, that particular description of the gospel, is that there is no mention of what

Starting point is 00:19:00 Jesus is actually saving us from. And what is the means by which all of these things are saving us? Of course, we would argue by grace through faith. We are being saved from. Marston and from hell. Now, I'm not saying that John Mark Comer has never said that, but I do think it's fair to look at a sentence that starts with the gospel is and expect there to be a full picture of what the gospel actually is. Chalice points out that Comer's preference for terms like apprentice over disciple and the way over Christianity kind of distances the book from traditional Christian terminology. And then I would agree with that. Baptist pastor, Dan Shriner, says that Comer's work may be appealing for the same reason that

Starting point is 00:19:41 help books are. Works righteousness is the default setting of the human heart, he argues. Comer emphasizes Jesus as a healer and a teacher rather than a substitute. This is a theme that many argue we see throughout his books, who takes the punishment, rather than a substitute, who takes the punishment for sin and focuses on confession and surrender without mentioning very often repentance. This is a video of John Mark Comer from 2021. And he says that the Gospels are the Gospel and that the evangelical idea of the gospel is actually not preached in the Gospels that we have. Here's that too.

Starting point is 00:20:22 My understanding of the Gospel is anytime I preach Jesus, anytime I announce anything about Jesus, his birth, his death, his incarnation, his teachings, his miracles, his parables, his resurrection, his ascension to the right hand of the Father, the coming of the Holy Spirit, the great tradition of discipleship, thousands of years old. in his name, I am preaching the gospel of Jesus. And if you search for some of the most popular summaries of the gospel in the American Church, such as what Dr. Gary Bershears calls the John 316 gospel, which is basically you're a sinner going to hell, but Jesus died on the cross for your sins so that you

Starting point is 00:20:57 can go to heaven when you die, if you search for that in the gospel in front of you, the gospel in front of you, you are hard-pressed to find anything remotely close to that in any of the four Gospels of Jesus. The Book of John is, John 316 is one of the Gospels of Jesus. And so we actually see it right there. That's why so often Christians encourage non-Christians or new Christians to start with the Book of John because we actually do see the gospel articulated so clearly. And you know, it's just interesting because right there you see the same line of thinking

Starting point is 00:21:38 that red letter Christians, so-called Christians have, which is that we can separate the Gospels and separate Jesus' Word from the epistles, and that the epistles somehow carry less authority than the Gospels themselves. But that would mean that if you believe that, then you don't believe that the entire Bible is the inerent, infallible word of God. Because if you believe that, then the epistles which expound upon that gospel message that we read in one of the gospels John 316 are just as authoritative or just as much God's words as anything that Jesus, who is God, also said in the gospel accounts. And so you kind of see hints of what I would call deconstruction in the things he writes

Starting point is 00:22:27 and says. Now I'm sure defenders of him would say, well, that's not fair. I would say he very much wants to push back against what he sees as the Americanization of Christianity and what he sees as Western civilization's perversion of the gospel by trying to introduce subversive ideas within Christianity that he actually calls ancient ideas and the original ideas of Jesus that I would argue are just kind of the basic tenets. of theological liberalism. All right, we'll get into more of this in just a second. Let me pause and tell you about our next sponsor.

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Starting point is 00:24:48 for the purpose of reconciliation and unification. And so this book denies that Jesus took our place on the cross and carried our punishment and paid the punishment for our sin by dying on the cross. This book denies that. He suggests that Jesus's death is better understood through a participatory framework, not a substitutionary framework. He argues, so this is kind of the basic line. And actually one of you said that you went to John Mark Comer's old church recently over the summer and you actually heard this line. I cannot confirm that, but that is what one of you messaged me. That he argues that Jesus died, this author, ahead of us, not in of us. So that Jesus died, he argues, ahead of us to invite people into union with him,

Starting point is 00:25:42 union in suffering, union in sacrifice, rather than dying instead of us to absorb and take on our punishment. And this particular author looks at the entire Levitical system that we see in the Old Testament and says that Jesus' death is a continuation of the Levitical system. And in the Levitical system, we don't actually see this idea of substitutionary atonement. And so I think this person, and maybe John Mark Comer, would say, well, this is a new American or Western idea. This is a more modern idea. This is not originally what Jesus' death meant. And I just want to remind you, before we get into the rest of this, and we'll get into John Mark Comer's clarification, because he did posts later about what he actually met in this. But I just want to read you again so that we keep in mind

Starting point is 00:26:36 what John Mark Comer actually said about this book that denies that Jesus took our punishment on the cross. John Mark Comer said one of the most important academic books I've read in years. He said he'll read rebuttals, but this seems to be the knockout blow to penal substitutionary atonement. He said it didn't come from liberals. That's what he used, but scholars of Leviticus. And he said highly recommend to me that reads as an endorsement of the idea that Jesus did not die in our place taking our punishment for sin. So what is penal substitutionary atonement? And why would anyone have a hard time with it? Why would anyone disagree with it? So this is according to Ligonier. This is R.C. Sproles' theological ministry. Penal substitutionary atonement teaches that Jesus Christ took the punishment for humanity's sins by dying on the cross. So acting as our substitute to satisfy God's just wrath against sin.

Starting point is 00:27:35 God's holiness demands that sin be punished as it violates his perfect law. But his love provided Jesus to bear this penalty in place of sinners. We read in Romans 623, for the wages of sin is death. But the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus, our Lord. We read throughout Romans. we read throughout Galatians that the reason for the law was the existence of sin, the reason for sacrifice, the reason for cleansing, the reason for ceremonies in the Old Testament was so that people could be made right with God. But Jesus fulfilling the law became an ultimate and final sacrifice on our behalf so that we no longer have to kill animals. we no longer have to make sacrifices to God.

Starting point is 00:28:28 Jesus became our sacrifice, and God has ordained the means by which his sacrifice has saved us, and that is by grace through faith in Christ's death and sacrifice. It is the belief that Christ's death was a legal transaction, where he endured the penalty deserved by humans, allowing God to forgive sinners without compromising his justice, Romans 325 through 26, whom God put forward, Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood to be received by faith.

Starting point is 00:29:00 This was to show God's righteousness because in his divine forbearance, he had passed over former sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time so that he might be the just, might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. So we read this language, justify, propitiation. we read that Jesus is our advocate, that Satan is the accuser. So all of this, we see this very legal language throughout scripture, that Jesus has become our punishment, that he also has become our advocate, that he has justified us before the father.

Starting point is 00:29:43 He has paid what we owed the punishment that we deserved for our sin on our behalf, giving us a clean slate, not only giving us the mercy to not be punished, but also the grace to spend eternal life with Christ. By taking on humanity's sin, PSA, posits, Jesus fulfilled the requirements of God's law, making it possible for believers to be declared righteous before God. 2 Corinthians 521, for our sake, he made him to be sin who knew no sin that we might become the righteousness of God. So the atonement is applied to those who trust in Christ, who receive forgiveness and reconciliation with God through faith in his sacrificial death. PSA emphasizes that Christ's sacrifice was sufficient to cover all sins, ensuring that believers are freed from guilt and restored to a right relationship with God.

Starting point is 00:30:40 Before he died, theologian R.C. Spruill wrote this. Christ's supreme achievement on the cross is that he placated the wrath of God. which would burn against us, were we not covered by the sacrifice of Christ? Yes, and amen. If that doesn't just make you want to rejoice and cry. So if somebody argues against placation, so placate means to satisfy or the idea of Christ satisfying the wrath of God, be alert because the gospel is at stake. This is about the essence of salvation that as people who are covered by the atonement, we are redeemed from the supreme danger to which any person is exposed. That word atonement literally means at one meant to bring together, to reconcile. We read in scripture that

Starting point is 00:31:28 we are dead in our sin apart from Christ, we are actually under the influence of the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience. That is what we read in Ephesians too. That is Satan himself. And therefore, we are enemies of God before Christ. What does Christ do? We also read in Ephesians 2 and 3, He reconciles us to God. So we are no longer strangers and aliens, but we become saints and members of the household of God. We become brothers and sisters within Christ. And we become heirs to God's inheritance. We become friends of God. We become sons and daughters of God. We get to enter into his kingdom because of the sacrifice that Christ made on our behalf and the friendship, the reconciliation that we get in that. All right, there's much more on PSA, but let me go ahead and pause, tell you about our next sponsor. That is Fellowship Home Loans. You've probably heard about the standoff that's going on right now between the Trump camp and the Federal Reserve. Trump is pushing hard to bring interest rates down and get the economy moving, but Jerome Powell's holding firm

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Starting point is 00:33:17 refinance later. So go ahead. Don't waste time. Be one of the prepared and smart people. Call fellowship home loans. Go to fellowship homelones.com slash alley. You'll get a $500 credit at closing when you use my link. Terms apply. See site for details. Fellowship home loans. Mortgage lending by the book. Nationwide mortgage bankers, DBA, fellowship home loans, equal housing lender, NMLS number 819382. Petyl substitutionary atonement is affirmed by many of the church fathers. It was emphasized heavily during the Reformation by reformers like John Calvin and Martin Luther. If we go back to some of the church fathers like Justin the martyr of the second century,

Starting point is 00:34:05 he wrote, If then the Father of All wished his Christ for the whole human family to take upon him the curses of all. Why do you argue about him who submitted to suffer these things according to the Father's will? if he were a cursed and do not rather bewail yourselves. For although his father caused him to suffer these things on behalf of the human family, yet you did not commit the deed as an obedience to the will of God. He connects Christ's death to Old Testament prophecies like Isaiah 53. And let's just read Isaiah 53 because I think that's a really important argument

Starting point is 00:34:42 in favor of penal substitutionary atonement. and you guys who have been watching this podcast for a long time know that one of the most difficult things that I do is trying to talk at the same time that I am looking up on Bible Gateway a particular passage. And yet that is what I am doing. Okay. Isaiah 53-7. He, this is a prophecy about Jesus, the Messiah. He was oppressed and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth like a lamb that has led to the slaughtering like a sheep that. that before its shears is silent, so he opened not his mouth. By oppression and judgment, he was taken away. And as for his generation who considered that he was cut off from the land of the living, stricken for the transgression of my people. And then verse 10, get it was the will of the Lord to crush him. He has put him to grief. When his soul makes an offering for guilt, he shall see his offspring. He shall prolong his days. And he took on our suffering. He took on our sin.

Starting point is 00:35:45 Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows, yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God and afflicted. He was pierced for our transgressions. He was crushed for our iniquities. Upon him was the chastisement, or punishment, that brought us peace, and by his wounds, we are healed. It seems to me that Isaiah 53 is a really good support for penal substitutionary atonement. John Calvin wrote a very similar thing in his institutes of the Christian religion. Another principal part of our reconciliation with God was that man who had lost himself by his disobedience should, by way of remedy, oppose it to oppose to it, obedience, satisfy the justice of God, and pay the penalty of sin. Therefore, our Lord came forth, that very man, adopted the person

Starting point is 00:36:37 of Adam and assumed his name. So I know a lot of this is. confusing because it's been translated and of course it's very old English what has been translated of it. So it can be a little confusing there. Martin Luther agrees, as I said, many of the reformers and many of the church fathers agree. Okay, why are people critical of penal substitutionary atonement? What could be an article against it? There is an organization, a resource called Catholic Stand. They raise some of the most common objections to penal substitutionary atonement. They argue that PSA misrepresents God's justice as punitive, neglecting its restorative aim to heal humanity's relationship with God. This ties to over-emphasizing wrath,

Starting point is 00:37:23 overshadowing God's love shown in 1st John 4-8. That is God is love. Anyone who does not love does not know God because God is love. They argue that PSA implies unjust punishment of the innocent, Punishing the sinless Jesus for humanity's sins is seen as unjust, conflicting with the idea that only the guilty should be punished. This aligns with the objection that punishing the innocent is unfair, unlike biblical justice, which of course is always fair. They also argue that PSA suggests division in the Trinity. This is a big one that people highlight, that PSA implies the father's wrath conflicts with the son's sacrifice undermining the unity of God's nature. this relates to a claim that I see a lot of so-called progressive Christians make that God allowing his son to die on the cross is cosmic child abuse. And they say, well, in John 1030,

Starting point is 00:38:18 Jesus says, I and the father are one. Catholic answers. This is a Catholic apologist who writes this. And talking about pouring divine wrath upon the son or God being unable to even look at Jesus as he stood as sin bear, you inevitably end up pitting the first person of the Trinity against the second person of the Trinity. Of course, I would disagree with that when you look at John 316, that God sent his own son to die for us, that we may not perish but have eternal life. Of course, when Jesus is praying to the Father in the Garden of Yosemite, when he is saying, please take this cup from me. I don't want this cup of suffering, but not my will, but, your will be done. I would certainly say that that is mysterious, but because we know the Trinity

Starting point is 00:39:08 can't be separated and because we know that these things actually happen, Jesus prayed to the Father, Jesus talked to the Father, Jesus said that he does the Father's will, then we have to be able to reconcile that seeming mystery there with the truth of God's word. So just because it seems that PSA separates them because Jesus suffers as God's wrath is satisfied doesn't mean that they're actually separated just as they aren't separated in other parts of the Gospels where Jesus is communicating to God the Father. Now, those who are anti-PSA would also say it's a later invention. They would say it undermines human responsibility. And they would also say that Christ fully bears sin's penalty or they say that this idea that he bears sin's penalty on our

Starting point is 00:39:53 behalf could suggest human moral effort is unnecessary reducing accountability. Progressives, many of them take on this view as well. Elisa Childers say that they would describe this as a vengeful father punishing his son for an offense that he has not actually committed. So that is one idea. And then the thrust of the idea that is in this book that John Mark Comer, that John Mark Comer recommended and put his stamp of approval on is that the Levitical law does it talk about substitutionary atonement, that these cleansing laws and that these sacrifices were made

Starting point is 00:40:37 were not the lamb taking on the punishment of sin, he would argue, but that Jesus's death represents some kind of unity and suffering and unity and sacrifice an example for us and not necessarily taking on our punishment. And this is what that particular author that JMC seems to be endorsing argues. He pushes back against a totalizing understanding of Levitical sacrifice as atonement in favor of a nuanced understanding of each category of sacrifice like non-atoning sacrifices. He argues that this involves the laity, eating the sacrificial elements, and serve to attract the divine presence and offer humans a means of communion with Yahweh.

Starting point is 00:41:25 The atoning sacrifices serve to ensure Israel's ritual purity, so they are capable of entering the divine presence. Yeah, Rilera argues that these atoning sacrifices do not have a substitutionary element and serve only to cleanse Israel of ritual and purity. Moral impurity, he argues, is a separate matter beyond the scope of the sacrificial system, required an extra-sacrificial divine act to resolve it. Thus, Rallera posits in the remaining four chapters of the book that Jesus' life, death, and resurrection serve as this extra-sacrificial divine act that cleanses moral impurity.

Starting point is 00:42:04 Jesus' death, he argues, is an act of solidarity, not substitution. To support this, Rolera connects the Last Supper to pass. as a well-being sacrifice that celebrates an act of divine deliverance and moral purification that establishes a covenant, not a substitutionary death that functions juriditionally to forgive sin. As such, Rilera concludes Christian should comprehend Jesus' death as a demonstration that the powers of death are defeated and a paradigmatic act for his followers to emulate. In essence, a fusion of Christus Victor, so Christ as the Victor. the defeated of death and the moral exemplar models of atonement.

Starting point is 00:42:48 Now, this reviewer says, had Relaer simply argue that penal substitution is not the dominant metaphor for discussions of the nature of the atonement, his thesis would be much more compelling. This is this person's opinion. However, the strident nature of his claim that penal substitution has no exegetical support seriously weakens the veracity of his argument. While his four-chapter discussion of the sacrificial system in Leviticus's excellent and helpfully forwards the charge that totalizing the entire sacrificial system under the umbrella of substitutionary death is inappropriate. The fact remains that several old and New Testament

Starting point is 00:43:23 passages contain substitutionary language. And we'll get into those passages in just one second. Let me go ahead and pause, tell you about our next sponsor for the day. And that is Adele Natural Cosmetics. Y'all know how much I love Adele. I use their products every single day. I love their oil-based cleanser. It is so good. It helps the texture of my skin. It helps the brightness of my skin. I think it helps smooth fine lines and wrinkles because it just keeps your skin so

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Starting point is 00:44:19 I love Adele. Go to adele natural cosmetics.com. Use promo code Alley. You'll get 25% off your first time purchase. That's Adele Natural Cosmetics.com code Alley. Okay, so what does the Bible actually have to say? So we already talked about some of it of what the Bible has to say in support of penal substitutionary atonement, but we can actually go all the way back to Genesis. Genesis 2.16 through 17.

Starting point is 00:44:51 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, you may surely eat of every tree of the garden, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you shall not eat. For in the day that you eat of it, you shall surely die. And the old covenant, people would lay their hands on an animal. They were sacrificing, identifying with it. then the animal was killed. The show that the person's sin and guilt were passed on to the animal. The animal took the punishment. The person deserved allowing them to live. That is exactly what the author of that book argued against. He argues that that's not what that meant at all.

Starting point is 00:45:21 But the argument in support of PSA asserts that it is. Leviticus 415 and the elders of the congregation shall lay their hands on the head of the bull before the Lord and the bull shall be killed before the Lord, the animal sacrifices in the Old Covenant couldn't actually remove sins before God, as Hebrews 10-4 tells us. They were just symbols that pointed to the true sacrifice, Jesus Christ, death on the cross. The ultimate sacrifice where Jesus took the punishment for our sins was hinted at throughout the Old Covenant sacrifices and very clearly foretold as we read in Isaiah 53. And then we read, for example, in Mark 1045, for even the Son of Man came not to be

Starting point is 00:46:02 served but to serve to give his life as a ransom for many we've got romans 425 that christ was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification hebrews 922 indeed under the law almost everything is purified with blood and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins and according to the critiques or the critics of psa this shows god as a bully but we actually read in john 3 16, that it is for love that Jesus was sent by God to die for our sins. And of course, we know that everything that God does is done in love. We read this from Nine Marks. Nine Marks is a ministry prior to Jesus' wrath-bearing death for our sins. Sinners hated God and God hated them. This is why Paul says we were enemies prior to our becoming reconciled to God through the death of his son. But

Starting point is 00:47:01 because Jesus died for our sins and took upon himself our wrath that we deserved. The weak and ungodly sinners and enemies of God now experienced so terological peace, which has exonerated us before the Father. Now, John Mark Comer did clarify his position, to be fair. He said that my main point in posting about Lamb of the Free was to recommend this provocative book. He said that it was highly insightful. I learned a lot. He said he disagreed with a ton. He completely, he says that this author completely denies all substitution. And then John Mark Comer says that that seems untenable biblically for me. And then he said, that said, there are a growing

Starting point is 00:47:50 number of conservative and Orthodox who struggled to map some of the modern Western ideas of atonement into the New Testament in most of church history. He said, I believe that. the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit were working together to save and redeem us through Jesus's life, death, and resurrection, all motivated by mercy and love while still maintaining justice. Jesus has done for us we could never, ever, ever do for ourselves. He said that he brought the defeat of Satan and death, the forgiveness of sins, the regeneration of the Holy Spirit, incorporation into Christ and through Christ. Okay, all of that is well and good. I still think, though, that what he originally said seems to be a ringing endorsement of this idea when he said that

Starting point is 00:48:35 book that he recommended is the knockout blow to penal substitutionary atonement. I would actually argue that that is exactly what John Mark Comer believes. Now, maybe you agree with him. Maybe you believe that he can still hold on to the gospel and deny penal substitutionary atonement. but I would listen to people like this who have spoken up about the dangers of denying this and the path that it can go down. I would listen to people like Andrew Walker or Wesley Huff or Denny Burke who have all spoken up about the dangers of denying penal substitutionary atonement, Elisa Chilters, whom we're having at Share the Arrow's, an amazing apologist.

Starting point is 00:49:22 and we'll end on those responses in just a second because I think they're really good and really biblical. Let me go ahead and tell you about our last sponsor for the day. That's Patriot Mobile. Patriot Mobile is America's Christian conservative wireless provider. They are standing in the gap for all the things that we believe in. Patriot Mobile uses all three major U.S. network so you don't have to compromise on coverage, but you can support a business that aligns with you. Patriot Mobile's 100% U.S.-based customer service team will get you activated and minutes from the comfort of your own home. They've got a contract buyout program,

Starting point is 00:49:57 so you don't have to lose any money when you switch. This is how we win the culture war by aligning our spending with our values. Go to patriotmobile.com slash alley. Use code alley and get a free month of service. Go to patriotmobile.com slash alley. Andrew Walker, an author that we have had on and a professor, the denial of penal substitutionary or substitution is a gateway for many other nefarious mishandlings of God's word. If you can make the text, not say what the text teaches,

Starting point is 00:50:32 you can make the text do anything you want. Scripture is not a wax nose. John Mark Comer is on a bad trajectory and to be avoided. He is a professor at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. We've got Wesley Huff, who was on Joe Rogan's show, who has been on several shows sharing the gospel talking about the reliability of scripture, including this show. He said, my two sense. Everything that is true about all the other atonement theories, moral influence, ransom, Christ is fictor, satisfaction, governmental scapegoat, etc. is true in penal substitutionary atonement. PSA merely remains the most biblically robust, consistent, and true of all theories. Scott Aniol says doctrine to die for penal substitutionary

Starting point is 00:51:22 atonement. Denny Burke, who is also a seminary professor, said that this is a hill to die on. He said that we should run as far away as we can from this false teaching. He says, relish what Jesus accomplished for us on the cross. Galatians 313. Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us, for it is written, cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree. So that looks like right there that Jesus took on our curse and took on our punishment because of our sin. Romans 8.3, for what the law could not do weak as it was through the flesh, God did. Sending his own son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh. Romans 325 through 26. God put Christ Jesus forward as a propitiation through faith in his blood in order to demonstrate his righteousness because in the forbearance of God, he passed over sins which were previously committed.

Starting point is 00:52:16 He set forth as a propitiation in order to demonstrate his righteousness in the present time so that he might be just and the one who justifies the one who has faith in Jesus. We read that passage earlier and it is worth reading again. I would argue that penal substitutionary atonement is biblical. And it is the most biblical view of Jesus' sacrifice on the cross. And I do agree the denying penal substitutionary atonement seems to lead the way to. the denial of the gospel. I'm not arguing that JMC is there yet, and I hope that he doesn't ever get there, but I do think its original post was a ringing endorsement of this anti-PSA theory. I'm personally not mollified by the caveats that he gave later, but the more important

Starting point is 00:53:05 thing is, is that we are understanding the gospel, understanding Isaiah 33, the biblical prophecies, and all of the signs and the signpost that led to the substitutionary atonement of Jesus Christ, who died on behalf of our sins. All right, that's all we've got time for today. We will be back here on Friday.

Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 1232 | John Mark Comer & the Penal Substitutionary Atonement Debate

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