Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 1246 | Unbiblical Churches: A Pastor’s List of Red Flags | Todd Wagner

Episode Date: September 26, 2025

In this uplifting episode of “Relatable,” Allie sits down with Pastor Todd Wagner, the founder of Watermark Church and the 1613 Project. Pastor Todd explains that Christians need to mirror Charlie Kirk’s commitment to the gospel through his work ethic. The pastor also gives his list of red flags for any church that isn’t properly leading its congregation in the way of Christ.    Check Out More from Todd: 1613 Project   Unhindered Share the Arrows 2025 is on October 11 in Dallas, Texas! Go to ⁠⁠http://sharethearrows.com⁠⁠ for tickets now! Sponsored by: ⁠Carly Jean Los Angeles⁠: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.carlyjeanlosangeles.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Good Ranchers⁠: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.goodranchers.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠EveryLife⁠: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.everylife.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Buy Allie's new book, "Toxic Empathy: How Progressives Exploit Christian Compassion": https://www.toxicempathy.com/ --- Timecodes: 3:11 - Revival After Charlie Kirk's Death10:38 - Unbiblical Churches20:21 - Life is a Mission28:39 - Red Flags to Leave Your Church40:57 - Using Your God Given Gifts49:09 - Christian Parenting --- Today's Sponsors: Good Ranchers — Go to ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://goodranchers.com⁠ and subscribe to any of their boxes (but preferably the Allie Beth Stuckey Box) to get free Waygu burgers, hot dogs, bacon, or chicken wings in every box for life. Plus, you’ll get $40 off when you use code ALLIE at checkout. Pre-Born — Will you help rescue babies' lives? Donate by calling #250 & say keyword 'BABY' or go to ⁠https://preborn.com/allie⁠. Carly Jean Los Angeles — Go to ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.carlyjeanlosangeles.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and use code ALLIEB to get 20% off your first CJLA order, site wide (one-time use only) and start filling your closet with timeless staple pieces. And see Allie's CJLA favorites at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠carlyjeanlosangeles.com/pages/allieb⁠⁠⁠⁠ Shopify — Shopify is the commerse platform behind millions of businesses around the world. Get started with your own design studio to turn your big business idea into profit. Go to ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://⁠⁠⁠⁠shopify.com/allie⁠ to sign up for your $1 per month trial and start selling with Shopify today! Constitution Wealth Management — Let's discover what faithful stewardship looks like in your life. Visit Constitutionwealth.com/Allie for a free consultation. --- Episodes you might like: Ep 687 | When God Tells You to Sell Meat, You Listen | Guests: Ben & Corley Spell (Good Ranchers) https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/ep-687-when-god-tells-you-to-sell-meat-you-listen-guests/id1359249098?i=1000581068327 Ep 804 | My Mom on Mothering Toddlers, Teens & Adults | Guest: Lisa Simmons https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/ep-804-my-mom-on-mothering-toddlers-teens-adults-guest/id1359249098?i=1000612674542 Ep 912 | How Small Farms Are Saving America | Guest: John Klar https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/ep-912-how-small-farms-are-saving-america-guest-john-klar/id1359249098?i=1000636697925 --- Buy Allie's book, You're Not Enough (& That's Okay): Escaping the Toxic Culture of Self-Love: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://alliebethstuckey.com/book⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Relatable merchandise – use promo code 'ALLIE10' for a discount: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://shop.blazemedia.com/collections/allie-stuckey⁠

Todd Wagner is a former pastor in author. He founded a very large and influential church in Dallas, and now he runs a couple ministries. One of them is the 1613 project, and he is equipping pastors and believers to not only be sober-minded, but match their faith with action. And gosh, this episode is jam-packed with wisdom, wisdom for how to know if you are in a biblical church, why to leave your church, how to bring concerns to your pastor in a way that is actually effective. And he has a word for parents, especially in this moment as a father of six and a grandfather of 13 grandkids. He's got a whole lot of wisdom. You are going to be so equipped and encouraged by our conversation today.

If you love Relatable, please subscribe on all of our platforms on YouTube, on Spotify, on Google Play, Apple Podcasts. Leave us a five-star review wherever you listen or watch it. helps us out a whole lot. This episode is brought to you by Olive. Olive is the food scanning app to show you what is really in your food. They're trying to make America healthy again. They want us to take seriously the food choices that we make, especially in our grocery store. They make grocery shopping for healthy food really, really easy. Just go to the app store and download Olive on the app store today. Todd, thanks so much for taking the time to join me. It's a blast to be with you. Yes. Okay. For those who may not know, can you tell us who you are and what you

All right. I'm friends of Alibeth Stucky. Yes, most importantly. No use since you weren't a Stucky briefly, but watched what God's done with you. It's been really, really awesome to see. So, you know, I started a little church called Watermark years ago and was there for about 23 years and felt like that I needed transition away from there in order to be able to continue to be who I really was. And so now I'm involved just continuing doing everything I was doing when I was leading, you know, that church and his campuses and now just doing it in a way that's probably a little less public. But, you know, we grabbed a ministry name called Unhindered and then doing something called

a 1613 project, which probably will relate to some of the stuff we talk about. But what I love about the name Unhindered, right, is the very last word in the book of Acts, right? Which it says, you know, kind of ironically when I left, I was, you know, I didn't have a place. I went from having a massive place with lots of help to kind of be by myself. And Axe ends by saying for two years, Paul received people in the first. rented quarters, welcoming all who came to him, preaching the kingdom of God and teachings concerning the Lord Jesus,

and the Word of God went forward with all openness, unhindered. And I thought to myself, that's exactly who I am. Whatever I do, I want to be associated with the Word of God, because that's what's going to be unhindered. Everything else is going to fail, right? But the Word of God is not going to, right? Grass withers, flower fades, but the Word of God will last forever. So I thought, you know what, why don't I keep myself attached to that?

and then we'll let God do whatever he wants to do, right? Yeah. What a perfect word for this moment. A lot of people are talking about revival right now, talking about an awakening in the wake of Charlie's assassination. I don't think any of us could have estimated just how much that would rock people who did not know Charlie to their core on a global scale. And a lot of people in my life and just in public have said, wow, I knew Charlie was a Christian. I did not know he was that kind of Christian. I didn't know that he was. preaching the gospel and he was an apologist and an evangelist and all of these things. Thankfully, I did know that, but not everyone did.

And it's causing a lot of people to say, what am I doing with my life and where am I going after this? Yeah, which is awesome. Yeah. Right? And I, I mean, we both agree. What happened was horrible. It was tragic.

I mean, not just for Erica and the kids, but really for our country. Yeah. And for all those college kids and people that were paying attention to who Charlie was. But what I love, too, you know, I first, Charlie kind of came across my radar. when he was committed to conservatism. Maybe even someone would say Christless conservatism early on. I mean, it wasn't as loud, right? His, I think, his last five years plus.

Yeah, he definitely grew a lot in his evangelism and in his faith the last five years for sure. Where he just said, you know, listen, I'm going to be, I'm a follower of Christ first. And maybe my conservatism flows out of that, right? Like we said, I think he really, he became absolutely unapologetic about that, which I think was the most beautiful part of what he did, you know?

And then, again, a lot of people paid attention to that. I had so many people text me, you know, after this weekend, which, you know, when that, they were just like, I never thought I would see so many of our nation's leaders and so many people, you know, speak the way they did about Christ, not about God, not general God, you know, and Charlie's the one that set him up for that in a lot of different ways. I kind of responded back to him. I go, hey, you know, have you been, you know, First Timothy two, two, one and two works, right? Pray for kings and those in our authority. And it's all part of what God's doing.

Yeah. You know, and I don't, you know, it remains to be seen what he's really up to, Ali Beth. One of the things I tweeted out right after that, I go, this is exactly the kind of thing God would do before he's about to do something else. You know what I mean? You talk about it. Yeah, what does that mean?

Well, what I mean by that is, okay, like, if you read the book of Revelation, okay, and I'm not saying, I mean, we've been in the last time since Paul wrote all of his letters to all the churches, okay? You know, date setters, you know, be really careful. In fact, last night had dinner with a bunch of my kids, and they even said, this guy from Rwanda who's get a lot of attention because he thinks the rapture's going to happen in the last 48 years. I go, well, he'll get a lot of attention for the next 48 hours. Yeah, right. And then I hope people expose him for what he is. If he wants to say he missed or

so, you know, somebody's going to be right one day. But back to the question. What I meant by that was in the book of Revelation, okay, when you look at it closely, it talks about the fact, well, there's seals, trumpets, and bulls. The seven trumpets are in the seventh seal and the seven bowls are in the seventh trumpet. If folks ever want to look at Revelation. But what's interesting is that God always pauses. He pauses after the sixth seal before he kind of gets, you know, going again with more judgment. It's like a grace interlude.

And then here come the trumpets. And then before the seventh trumpet, there's a pause. And it's like, God's like, what are you guys going to do with this? And then interestingly enough, when you get to the seventh bowl or actually the seventh trumpet, which is all seven bulls, and it's really Revelation 16 is where you get to the seven bowls. There is no pause. He just rolls through it. And what you see is the world responds, just like Egypt responded during the plagues of Moses. So, I mean, if people want to go look, six of the seven bowls, all right, line up with some of the plagues that happened in Egypt.

Okay. And what Pharaoh did, he just kept hardening his heart, hearting his heart. And then God hardened his heart is an illustration of the Necess. necessity of the grace of God and the hardheartedness of men. But at certain points, you know, Proverbs 29 says, He who hardens his neck after much reproof will suddenly be broken beyond remedy. So what I said, okay, was, hey, listen, guys, pay attention, right? You know, God is not slow as some count slowness, but he is patient towards you, not wishing for any to perish, but I'll come to eternal life. I don't know if the world's going to end, but, man, your world's going to end one day. Yeah. Right? And that's why I just tell people all the time. I mean, listen, God does offer

forgiveness to your repentance. He doesn't promise tomorrow to your procrastination. Today is the day of salvation. And what a gift to our country. I mean, to sit and listen to things that were like eternally important, ultimately important. And then also for a lot of folks to see, hey, a lot of people really have been doing something with this idea. Yeah. Right? Too many people, Ali Beth, go to church. And frankly, they go to unbiblical churches. I'll explain what I mean by that. And they're not a part of the church. There's a world of difference between attending a service and tending to the Lord's

business. And what was awesome, okay, is I think people realized, man, Charlie was tending to the Lord's business. I mean, that's what I mean, periodically I'll text you. And I'm just like, hey, I'm so proud of you. Yeah. Because I, because, you know, we'll talk about issues. We don't have to drag, we want to quote scripture every time we speak.

Yeah. Right? You know, but you're not afraid of who you are. and who you are is a person who understands the kindness of God and the goodness of his word is somebody who's lovingly sharing that with others. I'm not going to love you more if you agree with me. Yeah. But here we go.

So you just do a great job at that. And so did Charlie. And I'm thankful for you. Well, thank you. Okay, y'all, let me remind you, October 11th, Dallas, Texas. Share the Arrows is happening. Our Christian Women's Conference, it is going to be amazing, y'all. It's going to be amazing.

I cannot wait to worship with y'all. I cannot wait to learn with y'all. I cannot wait to speak to and encourage y'all. We've got Elisa Childers. We've got Ginger Duggervolo. We've got a motherhood panel with Abby Halberstadt, Hillary Morgan Ferrer. We've got a biblical health panel, which is going to be so important. We've got Shauna Holman and Taylor Dukes on that. And then we've got our girl, Katie Fowis. She's going to be bringing it. It's going to be amazing. Francesca Battistelli leading worship. Go to share the arrows.com. You can go ahead and use my code, Allie 20. Sharetheeroes.com, And you'll get 20% off. Share the arrows. This year is brought to you by our friends at Good Ranchers.

That's share the arrows.com code alley 20. Before we get back into that conversation, I want to tell you about my good friends at Carly Jean, Los Angeles. They're going to be there at Share the Arrows. We love them so much. They are so awesome, unapologetic about the faith, and they just make great clothing. I love these jeans. My jeans are from CGLA. Almost all of my jeans are from CGLA because they're so comfortable. They're stretchy and they feel so comfortable in every stage of life. But they do. don't have a lot of give. So even though they're stretchy at the end of the day, you're not going to be like, oh my gosh, these look awful on me. They look way too big now. That's just like the sweet

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I don't know if he's boldly proclaiming the word of God. It kind of seems like he's scared. So how should we think about our church leaders and how do we decide? Yes, I am in a church that is glorifying God. Okay. So let me just start. Because what's great is I don't have to make this up, right? God's word, right?

So first of all, ask if you figure out what your pastor thinks the purpose of his church is. They'll probably say something, you know, maybe from Matthew 28, go and make disciples. I'm like, great, well, what's a disciple? Like, can you define a disciple? And disciples are not people that attend his services. One of the things I've said for a long time, Alibeth, you know, was you got to stop letting people rip you off. I mean, and most pastors, I really mean this, most pastors, even the one with good doctrinal statements. They cut a deal with their people. It's like, you come here, right? You validate me

with your presence. You know, you give me enough money to keep the lights on. And I won't ask too much of you. And we'll both tell each other we're doing what God wants us to do. It's like, don't get arrested for child pornography this week. You know, don't do anything really embarrassing us. But just show up. You know, be here, serve a little bit in children's ministry. And I'm just like, listen, man, The Bible says, Jesus said that his church, that the gates of hell won't stand against it. So if your church isn't forward moving, right, we don't huddle up and try and protect ourselves. So if your church isn't forward moving towards bringing light to darkness and calling those

who are in darkness out of darkness into his marvelous light. And frankly, when I say your church, if you're not part of the family of God that's doing that, too many pastors are frankly just saying, hey, we'll do the ministry. just come support the ministry. That's an unbiblical church. Okay? So Ephesian says this in chapter four, right? That God gives some as apostles, some as prophets, right? Some is evangelist, some is pastors, some as teachers for the equipping of the saints for the work of service. And I'm telling you, man, a lot of people will go to churches and just talk about, oh, he's an exegetical pastor, which is good, right? He preaches really well and his doctrine sound. I'm like, that's great. But

but does he move you to action, right? Don't be doers of the word, not merely hearers who delude themselves. If there's not some form of accountability, some expectation, some opportunity for you to use your gifts again, not just in running the weekly meeting. Churches don't run weekly meetings. That verse that we always use, you know, don't forsake your sum together as the habit of some. There's nothing in there that talks about one day a week, right?

That same book, Hebrews, right? I just quoted Hebrews 1024. That same book says in Hebrews 3, encourage each other day after day, as long as it's called today. So we'll be hardened by the seaffulness of sin. And the seaffulness of sin is that it makes a life that is not faithful look faithful or attractive, right? So the worries of the world, the deceitfulness of riches, the concern for many things,

this is what chokes out faithfulness. So if you are a part of a church where your pastor is not expecting you to identify your gifts, this is 1 Peter 410, as each one of you has received a gift, be good stewards, employing it and serving one another as good stewards of the manifold grace of God. So, you know, I'm quoting a ton of scripture here because I don't want you to hear Todd Wagner's opinion, right? I really mean this out of Beth, and I'll share one illustration, okay? About four years ago, five years ago, I was driving back.

I was on I was I was I was just outside of Canton and I was getting merging onto the highway and I look over and I see this hawk I mean like an amazing hawk I'll show you a picture of it like I and I grew up loving my side of the mountain did you ever read that book okay great book my side of the mountain it's about a kid that ran away and he found this pet falcon he actually went up and stole it from a nest and then you raised this falcon to hunt with him and you know it's part of the book. Okay. And I always thought as a kid, man, it'd be amazing to have like a bird of prey as a pet.

Yeah. Right? Yeah. So anyway, I'm driving. I see this hawk. It's like sitting on the access road. Like, you don't ever see a hawk sitting on the ground. Yeah. And I just, I mean, I was like 30, I stopped. Like, was that a hawk? And I backed up and I had a towel. And I mean, I'm going to, I'm going to show you a picture because it was crazy. And, um, and I threw this towel around it. And I picked it up. And I was like, this is unbelievable, you know, because I've got a hawk and I put it in my car, right? And I had somebody else drive. And I'm like, oh, I've got my hawk. Yeah. Right. First of all, then I was like, and I figured what happened is that thing, it's won't, you know, probably it's swooped down to find something, probably hit the side of a semi. It was stunned.

Yeah. You know what I mean? And I did find a little split under its wing. Yeah. But the little I know is breaking federal law, right? By possessing. Whoops. Yes, by possessing a bird of prey. But my point is, is I thought to myself, look, this is, I was making it about me. Yeah. You know what I mean? This thing is supposed to be, you know, I immediately thought how I can walk around like a pirate with a parrot, like a hawk. Like, you know, you think having a puppy at a dog park will get you attention.

Yeah. You know, having a hawk on your shoulder, right? Yeah. And of course, that's not what I'm supposed to do. And so, me, obviously, I called a game ward and said, hey, like, I got this hawk. And, you know, where can I take this thing? There was a wildlife refugee center right there up I-20. and I pulled in, I gave him the hawk, you know, and our job was to nurse that hawk, right,

make that hawk healthy and release it so it could do what it could do. It's not like, you know, I wouldn't, my point is a lot of pastors. Yeah. You know, Ali Beth, like, they love when people like you go to their church. Allie Beth, he goes here and this person goes here or all these people go here. It's like they're building an aviary. You know what I mean? as opposed to saying no.

Some of you guys, you need to realize you're supposed to, you know, my job is to equip you and to help you be what God wants you to be. I tell folks all the time, and this is the last thing I'll say about this. I've actually got about 15 things. I'm actually preaching through this right now with the group people that ask me to come, and I title why to leave a church. And I gave him 15 reasons why to leave a church. So I'm teaching the positive by illustrating the negative.

Yeah. Okay. And, you know, and I just said, man, if your church is collecting you and isn't calling you to greatness and doesn't see their job as setting you up so that one day when you stand before the Lord, you're going to hear well done, good and faithful servant, you're in an unbiblical church. Yeah. If your church isn't actively confronting the gates of hell, speaking out against hellish things, you're not in a biblical church because that's what Jesus says is church will do. Yeah. It's not running nice meetings with good worship and even good teaching. Yeah. So.

It's not just that. Not just that. It's got to have that. But that teaching with effect, right? It's supposed to produce something. So I'm really passionate about that. You know, that was one of things that marked, you know, I think my leadership at the church I found it was, you know, people were getting after it. You know, and that's what I wanted.

I'm like, man, I'm here to serve you. Most churches are like circuses where we put the best performers on stage and you pay to support. them. And I'm like, no man, I used to use the phrase, we're a clown school, right? Like, we're going to teach you to clown. Some you'll be mimes. Some you'll juggle. Some you'll do magic. But you're going to figure out what it is to bring joy to the world. And then you've got to go do it. And frankly, if you're not, then I use this phrase, Allie Beth. I said, if you're here and you're not practicing the one of those of scripture, if you're not abiding with Christ, if you're not, you know, connected to other believers in a small intimate environment, you're not discovering, developing, and deploying your gifts,

then you're not a regular attender. You're an irregular believer. And so I'm not saying you're going to hell. I'm just saying you're not pursuing heaven with us. Yeah. That's really good. And so you're the outlier. Next sponsor is Good Ranchers.

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Were you there on Sunday? I was, yes. I didn't get to catch a lot of it, but you know who I did? Here was Larry Arne. Yeah. Interesting speech, right? I love what he said. Do you remember what Larry said?

When Larry said, when Charlie came to him and said, what do I got to do? Do you remember what Larry said? You heard a lot. You were there for five hours. Well, he basically told him that she need to go read. You need to read the classics. You need to read the Bible. You need to read the founding documents.

And Charlie would send him all of these certificates of complete. of all of the courses he was taking online at Hill's Dale. Yeah. But what he said, I love what Larry said. He goes, you're going to have to suffer. Oh, you're right. That was the word. He goes, you're going to have to suffer.

And, you know, Charlie looked at him and said, what are you talking about? And he said, look, you're going to have to say no to a lot of things so you can equip yourself. Because you don't know what you need to know so you could do what God wants you to do. Yes. And then he said, next thing I knew, I got an email with a completed certificate of the first class. Yeah. And then he is one of, what do you say, six or seven people that's ever done all 31 of them. And listen, I talked to my kids about that.

Literally, I just said, look, man, he's not just, I think people listen to Charlie debate or they listen to you here, Alliebeth. And they're like, oh, was she so gifted? And listen, you are, okay? I mean, you know. But you work at it, right? Fair? I mean, you discipline yourself for the purpose of godliness. You study God's word.

You surround yourself with people who spur you on. and you know, you work at it. And so it's not like, you know, you just were, you know, I was telling my kids this. This is why I was just saying that, look, man, you have a better chance of being Charlie Kirk than you do LeBron James. You guys weren't bored with 40-inch verticals, right? And LeBron's done a good job taking care of his body

and maybe increasing his vert a little bit, but he was uniquely physically gifted. And I think, listen, you know, all of us are given different amounts of grace. And not every believer needs to be Charlie Kirk. But every believer needs to be great at what they do the way Ali Beth and Charlie is. That's the point.

And if you're in a church that it's just with okay, you attending and supporting what they're doing, you're in a non-biblical church. No matter how good the doctrine is. You know, when you were talking about how one of the things that you wanted to do when you led Watermark was spur people towards action, you know, I started going to Shoreline,

which was the youth group at Watermark, probably sophomore, junior, senior year of high school. And that was really one of the first times that I, even though I definitely was a Christian at that point, but I was also in this time of really taking my faith more seriously for a variety of reasons. But going to Camp Barnabas, which is this camp in Missouri for kids and adults with special needs, for those of you out there who don't know that, that was such a life-changing moment for me. and truly one of the first times that I was like, okay, this is what it tangibly day to day looks like to deny myself, take up my cross and follow Christ. Not that it wasn't also fun and

enjoyable because it's a great time, but it was such a lesson in service for me. It wasn't just, mission trips are great. I'm not saying that. But, you know, sometimes you can go on a mission trip with your friends and you do a little work and you do a little vacation. But this was like day and night truly trying to be the hands and feet of Jesus in a not glamorous way. So I think we usually went during wheelchair week. Yes. So your kids could do anything. No, it was intense.

We were talking like everything, you know. Like hygiene, showers, bathroom. I mean, it was the whole. Yes. And I just wanted like thank you for your leadership in that time. Because you're right. Because I saw exactly what you're talking about. That it was faith to action.

It was faith. Yes. Without faith, it's impossible to preach. Please, God, we read that in the book of Hebrews. However, when we read those Hall of Fame, faith heroes in Hebrews 11, by faith they what? They didn't sit there. They did something.

All of them. Yes. And I think that's really important for Christians to remember, especially in this moment. Belief is so important. Faith is so important. But I'm not going to believe that you have faith in that chair if he refuses sit in it.

Amen. That's it. So you look at all of Paul's books, like even let's just use Ephesians. It's the easiest one right now since we're already in it. Yeah. Paul has this outline for all of his books. The first half is like the Word of God and then the work of people who believe the Word

of God or what you believe and then how you behave. What the doctrine is, what you do. So you get through the first three chapters. It's almost a 50-50 deal except for Romans. Romans, it's 11 chapters of what you believe. Yeah. And then it's, I urge you therefore. Yeah.

By the mercy of God. So true. To present your body, right? As a living and holy sacrile. Get after it. So Romans has 11 chapters of that. And then four of application. But Ephesians, one through three,

this is what we believe in chapter four. And he says, therefore I, the prison of the Lord, urge you to walk worthy of the calling of which you've been called. So good. And so you're exactly right, Alibeth. You've got to get after it. And one of the things evil we did,

we wouldn't even let, like when we would send our people overseas, we would never use the term mission trip. Because why? It reinforces that what we do at Camp Barnabas or what we do in Africa or what we do in Mexico is a mission. What we do here is we just live and wait for the next mission, right? And so the phrase I use all the time is, a life is a long-term mission trip. And every week is a short-term mission opportunity or short, you know, and so we would call those, when you would go to a place like that, we'd call them

discipleship opportunities, disciples trips, where you would just go and do what disciples do. But I wanted people to think, you're on mission every day because the church is a mission. So as Watermark grew over the years, and people would ask me, well, what's the mission budget? I would say, well, this year it's 35 million. And we go, well, my gosh, what's the church budget? I go, oh, I thought you just asked me that question. Yeah. Right?

Because the church, this is the thing, people, you got to understand. The church is a mission. You are a missionary. All of us, right? And so, Alibeth, you are doing the work of an evangelist. That's what you do every day here, right? And it's not just sharing, you know, God is good, man is bad, Jesus died, you know, repent and trust in him.

But we should share that a lot. But the gospel is legs. And what you're trying to make the case for is, listen, God's good. He's not trying to rip you off. Yeah. He's trying to set you free. It's the one, it's the God of this world that's blinded the minds of the non-believing. Right?

And Jesus has come that you might have life. And you're making a case for that. And so you talk about that. I've loved the way you've just honored womanhood and honored motherhood, right? And just faithfulness. I mean, you do that on your show so well. Well, that's really kind of you to say. It means a lot coming from you.

So yeah, because you know, I wouldn't say it if it wasn't true. It's true. It's true. That is true. Next sponsor is Shopify. Y'all, Shopify makes your life so much easier. If you're an entrepreneur, if you've got any kind of e-commerce business, you're selling merchandise, you're selling art, whatever it is, you need to make sure that you've got a shop

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People use them because it's really easy to use and it works. So turn your big business idea into with Shopify on your side. Sign up for your $1 per month and start selling today at Shopify.com slash alley. That's shopify.com slash alley. I think that you're the perfect person to answer this question that I've gotten so much. We're talking about healthy churches and what churches should be and how pastor should lead. And I get a lot of questions, what should I say to my pastor? Which is really hard to speak into for everyone's individual situation. But if someone does have a concern about how their church is

being led, you from a pastoral perspective, what's the most effective way for a congregant to bring their concern to a pastor? That's a great question. Okay, so the Bible says, let me just again, I'll try and just help people because you don't have to hear from Todd Wagner, but I think, you know, all of it says, clothe yourself with humility. Right? And so, and, you know, each of us. So you younger men, be subject to your elders. And all of you, clothe yourself with humility for God's opposed to the proud and gives grace to the humble. So first of all, you ought to know, like something ought to stir you. One of the things that I tell people all the time is, like, like, baptism is the very first thing you should do if you're a believer. But I could convince you to get baptized.

What I really like is when people read their Bible and go, why am I not baptized? Like, that seems to be really important. I'm like, exactly. Yeah. You know what I mean? And so that, that's, That to me is usually when people, I go, you know, I think you get it, you know, because you're reading the Word of God and you do what it says. So you ought to know, okay, and this is why I'm just telling you, the church in America, Ali Beth, and I really do, we have a problem with our pastors because it's just good business to not ask too much of people, okay? Even the church I led, since I've left, they've changed some purpose statements and changed

some of what we were doing and, you know, different leadership can do it at once, but what I would say is that you ought to know what God's calling you to be, and then you should go with humility to your pastor and just say, hey, how can I help? Like, here's some things I feel like I need to do and that we should be doing. Or tell me your view and how we're equipping the saints for the work of service. Like, not just supporting children's ministry, parking, or greeting. We need to do that for our weekly meeting. But the church is not a weekly meeting, right? I would say almost every week, man, that we're here for two reasons. it was interesting.

Like when we built the building finally, you know, the people have built it put worship center in our largest room. And I literally popped off those words. And I said, I had the little, the WRS-HIP up there in my hands. I said, guys, this came off this room. Because this is not the worship center. You're like, this is the worship center. Right?

It's why I would end services with like, man, have a great week of worship. Yeah. Right? I was about to say that. You know? Yeah. So I was like, let's go. We got in here to do two things.

things to remind, to remember the grace of God, how great our God is. Because that world's loud. It constantly is getting us to believe that, you know, we should manage our spirituality, but really kind of give ourselves to personal peace and affluence to use Frank Schaefer's ideas of what mutes the church. And I'm like, no, we got to remind ourselves that this is truth. And what's real is the world that's coming and that we are aliens and strangers and that God is good and he's not trying to rip us off, right? And then so to remember God and then to remind ourselves what we do, that each of us is going to have to give an account for our life. One of the things that was so amazing about what Charlie was doing, right? I mean, I love what Frank Turrick said.

Yeah, so good, right? Yeah, tell everybody what Frank said, just so people can hear from another voice in mind today. Well, you know, he said so much that was good, but where he got the most animated and I just, in the room, you could just feel it. He said, and I'm paraphrasing here, said it a lot more clearly than I am, but he said, you know, Charlie is not in heaven because he was a good father and husband. He was not in heaven because he shared the gospel with all these people. He's not in heaven because he sacrificed himself for his savior. Charlie Kirk is in heaven because his savior sacrificed himself for Charlie. That's it. That's it. And so Charlie, you know, Charlie wasn't there. Now watch. What's great is that he was saved by grace through faith.

Yes. And not of ourselves is a gift from God. Not a result of works. So that no mention. to boast. But then verse 10, but Charlie was God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that he should walk in them. And what I did, you know, in fact, my wife and I had a little bit of a, I was talking to one of my kids, and they were shook like everybody was. And I think part of what reason we were shook is even without wanting to see anything, we just got on, we saw Charlie Turk was trending, we turned it on and we saw horrible things and things that we're not supposed to. to see. Exactly. Right. But my kids just go, and they said, I'm just so sad. And I said to him,

I go, I'm not sad. I go about, you know, I'm like, I'm motivated. You know what I mean? And my wife goes, you can't say that. And I go, well, babe, I wasn't saying I wasn't sad. I mean, I am sad. It's horrible. But what I was doing is making a statement of comparison. I go, what I mean is what really makes me sad is how many people think that what God wants them do is watch Charlie Kirk clips on YouTube, or go to church and not do what Charlie did. That what makes me sad is how many people think that now that Charlie's gone, what are we going to do? You know, and I,

so I mean, obviously, I was sad. But what really makes me sad, Allie Beth, is Christians and aviaries. What really makes me sad is that people think that what you're doing to make a difference is what there's, I mean, cheer for you, pray for you, encourage you, but then figure out what's their part. Yeah.

Okay? and do their thing. Because Charlie Kirk had no idea that he was going to live, that God had appointed, right? The scripture says in Psalm 139, God has fixed our days. Who knew Charlie Kirk's days were 31 and some? Right. But each of us has some days. And that's why I would always tell myself, I'm going to have to give an account for

these souls, Hebrews 13 says, as a pastor. And if somebody is not, you know, and frankly, just as friends, okay, you know, you know, Ali Beth, you know, you and I, when I get to heaven, right, and I'm standing before the Lord, and he says, Todd, you know, if he says to me, well done, good and faithful servant, it's like I'm going to, I want to probably look over my shoulder and see my community, see Ali Beth and Tim and go, hey, thank you. Because there's no way he would have said that if it wasn't for your friendship. It wasn't for your example. So thank you. That if, if members of your body, right, they're not, he's not going to say, well done, good and educated theologian. You knew you were a sinner and that Christ was the provision for all men. Okay? You're not going to be there unless that's true. Yeah. But what you're going to get judged for, right?

Salvation's always by grace. But judgment, and we don't talk about this enough. Christians are going to be judged. Right? So if you have no salvation, then you're only going to be judging your works and that's not going to work out well for you. Right. Okay.

But 1 Corinthians 3 says that no man can lay a foundation except that lay by Christ and the apostles okay and then it says that we're going to then present to the Lord what we've done and what is of wood hay and stubble right and imperishable things or perishable things is going to get consumed and you'll be saved as one who passes through fire but what we do with our faith is what's going to remain yeah and that's where we I think that's what I think that's what he's going to say well done you know when I stand before the Lord he's not going to punish me for my sins Christ covered that but he's going to reward me for what my faith, his grace working out in me as I believed in him and abided with him, what I produced for him. And I really believe that that's, if you, if your church, your community, that's

what I mean by that, your faithful brothers and sisters in Christ aren't helping you have more to stand before Christ with that he'll get the glory for to lay at his feet that he will celebrate, then you're not in a biblical church. Yeah, that's a really good distinction. You're right. We really don't talk about the judgment that Christians are going to endure. And it's so important to distinguish. Yes, by grace through faith, you have been saved. You quoted Ephesians 2 earlier. Paul says over and over again, not your own doing, not a result of works. It's a gift so that no one can boast. Like he really wants you to know that. But you're not talking about salvation. No. You're not talking about your works getting you to heaven. But before God, even though you are

justified, even though Jesus is standing before you as your advocate saying their slate is wiped clean, we are still rewarded, you are saying, or scripture says, based on the good that you have done with that saving faith that you have. Amen. Judged and rewarded. By the way, you want a horrifying verse, it's in Matthew 7 where people are going to stand there having done stuff, cast out demons, heal people, share, advance the kingdom. And he's going to say to some people, depart from me, I never knew you. Because you can do things that God uses, not in faith. Right? Yeah. That verse used to really trouble me, Ali Beth. I would be like, oh my gosh, how can I even know I'm saved? And the answer is you know you're saved because of whom in whom you

trust, not what you do. And then you do what you do because of whom you trust. Here's where it became clear to me. I was reading in John, this is years after I was a believer. I was actually teaching through John. And I got to where it's the night of his betrayal. Okay. And he says, hey, listen. and, you know, one of you is going to betray me. And they have no clue who it is. Now, why is that? It's because when Jesus sent them out to cast out demons and to heal sicknesses and to preach the gospel, when they came back, Matthew says that everybody reported

what they had done and rejoiced in what they had done, including Judas. Okay? God used Judas. And so, you know, and he was a son of person. tradition from the beginning. Right. Right. And so they, they didn't go, well, it's got to be Judas, because every time we came back, he had nothing to report. Judas did what Matthew 7 said, but he never, because God uses, listen, God uses imperfect men, thank him, because that means he can use me to do amazing things. That's why at the end of the day, you know, God says, don't you sit there and

try to sort out who's saved and who's not, right? I'll take care of that. But my point is, is I think there's probably, this is a safe statement. I think there's fewer people doing great works for God that aren't saved, then there are people who think they're saved because of what they believe who do nothing more than attend churches. I think I'd sleep on that. And I wouldn't sleep on that if I'm sitting there and I'm like, what am I doing? I'm like, what are you doing that is a right response? That's, again, think about what it says in Romans. I urge you, therefore, brethren, by the mercy of God, present your lives as living and holy sacrifices acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship.

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And if you're in a church where they're not helping you with that, you know, and one of the things I'm doing right now, I bet, is I'm gathering pastors to help equip them, encourage them, remind them of these things. I mean, meaningful membership. If you're in a church that doesn't have meaningful membership, right where you're held into account in a loving way right the reason that accountability is so is so important is because that means you count you matter yeah like your staff here if one of them doesn't show up to work you you notice it yeah right this incredible team that makes

this look beautiful and everything work and edits and posts if they're not here you're like hey this matters because you're part of the team yeah if your church doesn't treat you the way you treat your people in the podcast, it's not a biblical church. Yeah. If you cut off your hand, you would notice it. And if we're supposed to be different members of the body of Christ, well, you should notice if the finger is not there. If the eye is not there, it would make a meaningful difference. That was one of my favorite parts also. I also caught the gentleman. I think you were on with him yesterday, right? The producer of his- Andrew Colvitt. Andrew. Remember what Andrew did when he got on stage? Did Andrew walk on stage by himself?

Nope. What do you do? It is full team of Charlie's podcast. He had, I don't know, 15 or 20 people by because you don't know these faces, but Charlie couldn't have done what he's done without these people. Yeah. So you don't have to preach on Sunday. You might have the gifts that I've got. Most of us don't have the gifts that you have, okay? But there are gifts in this room that are every bit as valuable that are going to be every bit as rewarded.

Yes. Okay. And one of the things I love to tell people, since we're talking about works, it's like there's two parables that Jesus tells. One of the talents and one of the meanness in the scripture. And what's interesting is if you look at both of those, when people are given, some are given 10, some are given five, and some are given one. Okay?

What's interesting about that is if you use your 10 talents, guess what you get? The same reward is a person who used their five talents. The same reward is if a person had used their one talent well. You're not judged because you weren't given 10 talents. Yeah. The reward for people who are given different gifts is the same if they're faithful with what they're given. But Charlie was given, I think, a beautiful mind. right so he went through 31 Hillsdale courses but clearly he had good recall right we were laughing

earlier about a mutual friend that doesn't have some of the gifts that you've got right but that is beautiful right and that her gifts are completely different than yours and and she shouldn't have to feel bad that she doesn't have your speaking and writing gifts yeah right and yet she uses them to her glory and so I think you know she's going to get the same reward if she's faithful as you are so in the other one where people are given five, five, and five, the reward is different. Okay. So there's certain things we all have been given, like today. Okay. So I've been given 62 years so far. So twice as many as Charlie. So our time on earth is not the same. But when Charlie and I lived two weeks ago on Wednesday, our day was the same, right? The scriptures, we have the same

scripture. We have the same Holy Spirit. So what are you doing with that? Yeah. Okay. And it should look different. Some of you are, you know, trumpets, which everybody hears a trumpet when it's played. And some people are harps. But just use it the way God wants you and be in a church that helps you use it. And by that, not just to support the weekly meeting, but the mission that the gates of hell won't stand against. That to me was the thing that makes me sad. I am sad. I genuinely am sad about what happened. Obviously, a good. good young man and those kids and that wife and the people that loved him. But I am sadder for God's people that are being ripped off by pastors who want to build aviaries. And explain, unpack that analogy, the aviary. Okay. An aviary is a place like that it's a big cage that a bunch of birds live in, right? Where they just want a bunch of hawks and look how cool my zoo is. Because I've got hawks. I've got, you know, whatever the fruit loop bird is and all these other cool things. Tucan, I think.

Yeah. You know, all these great birds that are in there and you can come to my aviary and see all the birds I collected. Like, that's not why you're there, pastor. Yeah. Right. Take that screen off, right? And let them be birds of prey. Yeah.

Let them be, you know, sparrows and let them be whatever they're supposed to be to the glory of God. And they're not yours to collect and become famous because you have the biggest aviary in the country. Yeah. You're going to give an account for those little creatures. And so get after it. That makes me sad. And I'm telling you, one of the things you got to do, once you go to your pastor, just full circle, and you love them, come with a heart to bring about change and with solutions, not just problems, and say, I'm here to serve. What can I do?

Right. And if nothing else do what Daniel did, say, wait, maybe we're not going to change the whole church tomorrow. but do I have permission to lead these group of people this way? That's good. That's good. To start to do it in this little community. And then all of a sudden people are going to see that little part of that community having all the fun. And they're going to want to jump in on that.

It's going to infect the church that way. Now I'll say this. You've got to decide pretty quickly if you, if they, because churches like, this is the truth. Most pastors like it when you just want to do that. And they'll even refer to you, right? And talk about the great things the church is doing because you're doing that while they're not asking everybody to do that. And you've got to make sure you're not making people think that because you're there, it's a good church. It's a good church if they're calling everybody there. And again,

we all develop at different levels and at different times. But I tell people sooner or later, I hate to say it. But the only way to vote is with your feet and stop funding compromised churches that are more committed to theatrical performance on Sunday, give you great children's ministry. Awesome worship and even exegetical teaching if it's not helping you be that. And I'll just say this. If there's a pastor out there that I can serve or churches, that's kind of what this thing, the 1613 project that I'm doing is a little bit of part of, is helping people, frankly, it's not something you join. We come to you, whether you're an entertainer, an athlete, a businessman, or a pastor, or a mother. We want to help you be what God wants you to be. Right. So 1613 comes from

1 Corinthians 1613, be in the alert, stand firm in the faith. And then it says, act like men or the ESV says, act courageously. So if I'm talking to you, I'm not going to say act like a man, Alibeth. I'm going to say, act courageously because that's what the scripture says. But be strong and let all you do be done in love. Our last sponsor for the day is Constitution Wealth. You want to make sure that you are managing and stewarding your resources in a way that glorifies God.

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All investing involves risk, including the risk of loss. This is a paid endorsement. You've spoken to us as a pastor so uniquely and importantly. I also want you to speak as a parent to parent. because you might not not everyone knows this about Todd Wagner, but he's got five. Six. Six?

Oh, I missed the last one. The one he's not married. We talked, yeah. Only the one. Six kids. The one's still in college. 13 grandkids. And his, I don't know personally every single one of your children.

I know some of them personally. And let me just tell you, these are some of the most solid people I know. And just incredible. And that is no small feat. And of course, we think the Lord for that. But the Lord equipped you and your wife to raise these amazingly godly children. Five of the six are married. Most of them have children.

They take the things of the Lord seriously. And that is our prayer for all of our kids to take the things of the Lord seriously, to put their faith to action. And some people are thinking, well, the world that we're living in, it's scary. and there's a lot of danger out there. Give some encouragement and some practical advice to us who are trying to raise godly kids like the ones you have raised. Well, that's very kind.

I think my wife and I would both say, and I appreciate you saying my wife and I, because sometimes when I talk is in my kids, and I always mean our kids. Of course, yeah. So my wife was an amazing, and his amazing mom, grandmother. But we would both say that our greatest ministry accomplishment,

the greatest grace in our life is that we have been a, blessing to our kids and not a burden. We weren't in the way of them trusting in Christ. You know what I mean? You know, Alibat, Psalm 128 says this. How blessed is the man who fears the Lord who walks in his ways. When he eats the fruit of his hands, he will be happy. Yeah. And, you know, and then it goes on and just reaffirms that. And I will tell you, I knew whatever I did, you know, when I ended up going into full-time ministry, which I did not think I was going to do. You know, but God ended up having me do that. You know, I just, I don't want to raise pastors kids.

We have a whole slew of people that are called PKs because, you know, they see their dad say one thing in public, but they don't want to follow him because maybe it's not who he is at home or whatnot. Yeah. My kids don't even know what it is to be a PK. In fact, they were one time a well-known pastors, kids were around us and flashed them a P-K sign. And they go like, what's that? She was, P-K, you don't know that? And they're like, we're not pastor's kids. They literally said that, you know, but they, because it has such a negative connotation. But here's what I would say to you is we did not want to raise obedient children.

We want to raise healthy adults. And so healthy adults have to figure out who God is. And we just told our kids, hey, listen, children are a gift from the Lord. Meaning even though we're your earthly mother and father, we have a stewardship over you. And our job is to, you know, you're his and not ours. Okay. And by God's grace, we've not had a prodigal. Our kids, our sinners just like me, right?

I come from the line of Adam, redeemed by Christ. They come from the line of Todd in the line of Adam. So they had a sinner for a dad, you know. But I will tell them, they saw me order my life and Alex's life by God's word. They saw us repent. They saw us ask for forgiveness. They saw us be committed to reconcile with one another. When we broke bread at meals, we didn't do it in an unworthy manner.

If there was conflict amongst us as a Christian family, we would stop and work it out before we ate. Before we prayed and remembered Christ in our prayer, we just go, let's not do this in an unworthy manner, right? If I need to ask you forgiveness because I was just sharp with your mom in the kitchen or this little sibling stuff going on here, let's work that out. Let's talk about it. Let's be Christians in our home.

So I think, you know, when you look in the scripture, the problem before it becomes a problem with Israel, it's always a problem with the family. If you look at Israel in the book of judges, right? Let's go to Samuel because the last judge was Eli. Okay? Before, I guess Samuel would be the last judge. But there was a problem with Israel because Eli's sons were not walking with the Lord.

Eli wouldn't discipline them. And so that made its way into the way the people just despise the things of the Lord. So I just think, you know, for us, okay, I tell people that, kids, the kids who do well are the kids that don't watch their parents go to church. Kids whose parents go to church, I think it's an 80% rate of kids who leave the faith whose parents attend church. That's actually a study by the Baptists, okay? But I will tell you, kids that watch their parents live missionally, right?

Who use their home as a mission in their neighborhood, who love and pray for their neighbors, who have their neighbors in their home, who share Christ with. with the kids' friends and the kids' friends' parents and others that live near them who work through things biblically in their home and who live Christianly, those kids see the, they see God the power of God. Let's be honest, man, going to church is a beating, getting up a Sunday, pulling everybody together.

And if all you do is go to church most weekends when you don't go to the lake or have kids' sports, those kids are like, I'm going to be just like you. I'm just not going to ruin my Sunday. But if they watch you, Allie Beth, if they watch you just think biblically, live biblically, make decisions biblically, and they watch the blessing of that and the fruit of that. They watch you and Tim have friendship with people who are in darkness, all of a sudden, walk in the light, and they see the power of God. They want to walk with that God.

Yeah. And so I would tell you that my kids saw us be rejected in our community, us being pushed out of certain circles, because we asked them to make, even before they were believers, we just said, we're not going to do that. I mean, I remember when kids, whether it was spending the night sometimes or whether it was going to birthday parties, whether we're going to go see like a James Bond movie in seventh grade. Yeah. Like, hey, here's why we're not going to do that. We can meet him up after the movie. And they're like, this is crazy.

Nobody lives like that. And we're just like, well, okay. You know, and I think the phrase is, you know, we'd be aliens and strangers. If you don't, if you're not okay being an alien parent today, then you're not ready to be a biblical parent. And so if your kids never tell you, nobody does. this, then you're probably more like the world than you are like the salt and light that God says you should be. And your kids need to see you live with that conviction and grace. And at a certain point, you tell them, hey, listen, I am trying to help you see the blessing

of walking this way, but then you get to make your choices. And I'm going to let you make age-appropriate choices with age-appropriate consequences. But my whole goal is let you fly out of this nest and live however you want. Yeah. Now, my kids, by God's grace, all made decisions that they wanted more of Jesus than they did to the world. Praise God. And it's been a blessing. My favorite quote is by Kirby when she shares her testimony. And her testimony is because I saw the reality of Christ in the life of my parents and

others that they were friends with, and I saw the goodness of God's way. She was, I have more joy and less scars than my friends because as an early age, I embrace the God who gives joy. And I thought to myself, what a testimony. Yes. Right? Because most of us think, I don't have a great. testimony unless I've got scars.

Right? Yeah. Her testimony is, I'm not perfect. I need a savior. But I have less scars. Because from an early age, I've seen the goodness of God. So beautiful and so kind. And so I would just say, man, parent, you've got to be on.

The church is a community of families. Right. So you cannot ask your Christian school or your church, it can supplement you. It cannot substitute. You are dad's the priest of your home. You are the priestess of your home. Together, you are forming. You know, people sometimes ask, you know, what's your wife do to me?

And I love the phrase. I just, you know, you usually call people by their highest title, you know. And so I just said, well, she gives birth to and shape to eternal humanity made in the image of God. What's your wife do? No big deal or anything. She's a corporate attorney? Yeah. Okay.

You know, I mean, again, I understand some people are. Oh, everything's small potatoes compared to that. Everything. I mean, Ali Beth, this podcast, as amazing as it is, and we talked about this before we went on air today. Right. When I saw what you did, right, because this thing is, this is a service to a lot of us. You know, I love what you're doing. But you recently just stepped it back because you believe what I just said.

Yep. Right? You and Tim made a decision. There might be a day. I'll do five days a week. but now, not now, because my primary calling, right, is to be present with my kids. Yeah. So I just said, thank you.

Right? I think your greatest episode this year has been the episode you haven't filmed. Yeah. So true. Because what it says. Yeah. And what it's going to produce in your kids. Such a good way to say that.

Yeah. Thank you for saying that. Can you reiterate where people can find out about the 1613 project and also unhindered? Yeah. So they're not very impressive websites, but unhindered.org is where they can get a hold of me. And also the 1613 project.com. That's a dot com. And then what we do, myself and some others that are working with me now is we just like,

hey, how can we serve you? And one of the things that we're working on right now is pulling together a bunch of pastors who want to be faithful in this way and pastors and elders and just encourage each other, not form a denomination, but a network of guys that go, you know, let's remind you other that we're not going to be successful because we have a building or more people, right? The old joke is buildings, budgets, and butts and seats. But I'm telling you, that's powerful. You wouldn't believe how many pastors are still driven by that.

And I'm just, I just want those folks to go, hey, man, you know, and I actually, it's so funny, I finished a book four years ago that's written and I just haven't released it because when I transitioned away, but the book was the working. title was holy discontent. And it was W-H-O-L-L-Y. Right? And it was, it was really a warning to pastors if they're not doing what God wants them to do. And it was also to tell people, if you aren't discontent with your church, if it just is satisfied with cutting a deal with you, this is, I answer some of the questions that you have in there. And I probably need to push it out and just and get it done.

But I think, so 1613 project.com, unhindered.org. And every now they do a little podcast called the Todd Wagner show. But if you're going to choose between that and the Allibeth podcast, go to relatable. There's room for both. There's room for both. Well, Todd, thank you so much. I really just appreciate your wisdom and your encouragement. It was exactly what we need.

So I appreciate you and thank you. Thank you, Annabeth.